Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/25/04 01:09 PM
129.33.119.12
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Amend- the Clans were absorbed and the Borg was non-nerfed in the "arguement" version of the scenario That was presented on another board... I just ran with that example again here... feel more than free to dispute...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/25/04 03:07 PM
4.12.82.110
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The Galactic Patrol is the military arm of its Civilization. Galactic Civiliization spreads across the entire Milky Way Galaxy. Every planet and species belonging Civilization can build and operate an Academy much like our own four year military acadamies. During the fith year of training Lensman candidates will travel in one man speedsters to Arisia for a one on one interview with the Arisians. Any Boskonian spies that have made it to this point will be killed. Desigining and building the first of any type of super weapons takes a few years. I believe that building additional weapons and upgrading will require less time since they have the experience they gained building the prototypes.
The number of Lensmen in service or living till retirement is a small percentage of the number of Patrol men who live till retirement. However given the immense population of Galactic Civilation I believe that their are at least 1million living Lensmen at any given time.
Movie Reviews? I'm unaware of any movies that have ever been made regarding the Lensman. Are these movies based on the novels written by "EE Doc Smith?"
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cmryan
07/25/04 03:13 PM
4.12.82.110
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A Lens can be made only for a currently living being. If a Lensman loses his Lens a new Lens will be sent to him. If and when he dies his Lens will cease to exist. The Lens does not provide or amplify any telekinetic ability. The Galactic Patrol is a Galaxy wide combined arms military organization with a membership provided by all of its members which include aliens at all rank levels and in alll capacities.
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Spartan
07/26/04 12:30 AM
67.64.107.248
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They were old anime's. I googled Galactic Patrol and Lensman and got reviews of them as well as comic books dating back to the 30's IIRC.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
07/26/04 01:06 AM
67.64.107.248
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>>feel more than free to dispute... <<
Well, if you insist. 
I don't think the Clans would get absorbed. At least, not militarily. I'm fairly certain they would rather die than give up their way of life. Having said that, I'm also willing to bet that the civilians in particular would very quickly try to get on the Empire's good side. Feel more than free to dispute any thing in this paragraph. 
As for the Borg, they may have large numbers for a Trek universe species but compared to the Empire they do not. And numbers aside the Empire is simply FAR too dominant in technology for any Star Trek specie to handle. A Star Wars turbolaser would slice through any Star Trek ship that I know of like a red hot buzzsaw through melted butter. Remember that the Galaxy class Starship (TNG Enterprise) has shields that have an energy absorption of 3311 GW while the light turbolasers on an Acclimator Troop Transport have a combined output of 300 million GW. The LIGHT turbolasers. On a troop transport. Not a capitol ship, a troop transport.
On the otherhand, the Enterprise has a 3.6 GW total output for it's phasers and the Acclimator, much smaller than an ISD has a dissipation in the 70 Trillion GW range*. So the Enterpirse would have no hope of damaging a Star Destoyer but the Enterprise would lose it's shields in the first volley and be destroyed in the next in the best case scenario. I doubt the Borg would do much better.
In other words, the Empire does not have a slight advantage in firepower and protection but has Orders of Magnitude Advantages.
*Note: I wasn't able to find numbers on ISD shield dissipation so I just used the Acclimator since that was available. Also note that I'm not including the Ion Cannons that ISDs are armed with, nor am I including damage to the Enterprise due to TIE fighter and bomber attacks. Finally, all this information is taken from www.stardestroyer.net/Empire who in turn got it from the various official books.
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Greyslayer
07/26/04 01:29 AM
216.14.192.233
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Quote:
I've not been able to follow Stargate for quite some time. How do the Replicators acquire the technology? And what about their industrial capabilities? I mean, if they figure out how to build a Star Destoyer but can only build one every other year (for example) that wouldn't really give them an advantage. But then, if they figure out how to build one every day, they could soon match the Empire's numbers.
Essentially Replicators are self-replicating lego pieces. For example, when the replicators crashed on earth they took over a russian sub as a few pieces had survived the crash, the remaining replicators could only be made from the materials of the sub (thus standard ferro-based) and would rust in the sea.... but if they came in contact with a hi-tech culture and captured just 1 of that culture's ships then they basically aquire all the technology used on that ship. Replicators if they capture nearly indestructable metals would be made from that nearly indestructable metals. They don't build much they just fabricate what they need when they capture a unit.
A comparable scenario could be for example an AI that captures mechs, upgrades the mechs but generally leaves them the same but AI controlled and sends them out to get more mechs... they don't need docks or any facilities.
If for example they came accross the Empire, what would probably happen is the Empire would only know they existed after they lost a couple of ships, by then it might be too late as the Empire doesn't have all the greatest tech but the replicators can incorporate pretty much all but BIOTECH into everything they upgrade, so if they came across a Tolan (another Star Gate race, was destroyed by Anubis the Goa'uld crossed with an Ancient)... the tolan were the only ones with the tech to go through solid matter... they could incorporate that tech into torpedoes to disable key systems to allow the capture of more ships.
The borg being partly made of metal would be used to make more replicators and the biomass destroyed, the Borg wouldn't necessarily be able to do much against the replicators since smashing a replicator only means knocking apart a lego... the situation could end up similar to the bad guy in Terminator 2... you keep hitting him but he keeps repairing and going on, they are not quite that powerful (depending on the metal they aquired to be made from).
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Spartan
07/26/04 10:35 AM
67.64.104.23
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Okay so far we have 3 potential challengers to the Empire.
The Replicators: steal all the Empires ships?
The Galactic Patrol: throw planets at the Empire.
The Archangels: PALPATINE!!! I CAST THEE DOWN!!! or something.  Of course they don't really need archangels for that....
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/26/04 10:49 AM
65.1.42.9
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I agree with the energy output and firepower thing, but I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this acclimator... Is it the same as the Sentinel class troop transport, or at least similar in size and capability? Arguement aside, kudos to you for finding something IMperial that I am not familiar with...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
07/26/04 11:41 AM
67.64.104.23
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The Acclamator was the precursor to the Victory Class Star Destroyers. It was seen in Ep II. The arrowhead vessels that the clone troopers were boarding. Basically large but *relatively* unshielded and unarmed transport ships. Think a modern day LCAC, which is basically a coverted WWII small aircraft carrier. From this they developed the Victory and then Imperial class Star Destroyers which were obviously not lightly armed transports but heavily armed cruisers.
So instead of 24 light turbo-lasers and 12 heavy they had 60 HTL's as well as 60 Ion Cannons(not sure on the LTL's) and room for 72 fighters. Given all this and the incredible energy dissipation of the Star Destroyer shields the Empire could send a solitary ISD to take on an entire fleet of hundreds of Enterprise-D's and still win with little to no effort.
For size comparisons: the Acclamator was about 760 meters long, the ISD 1600 meters long and the Enterprise was 641 meters.
For a real laugh, look at Mike's comparison of Jango's Slave-I vs the Enterprise-D. The Slave-I STILL defeats the Enterprise with ease.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Edited by Spartan (07/26/04 11:49 AM)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/26/04 01:08 PM
129.33.119.12
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Oh, that's what they were called... I know all about the VSD, ISD and VSD II and ISD II, The Acclimator slipped me... I guess my new movie knowledge is a bit subpar still... I'm still trying to digest the inconsistencies between the new movies and the old novellizations... I've seen the vs. section on Stardestroyer.net and apart from being hilarious, most are backed by solid fact presented in canon, or real physics... The Imperial Class had 60 XX-9 Dual Heavy Turbolasers, 60 Ion Batteries, 10 Phylon Tractor beam projectors, a full wing of TIE craft (72), 5 assault gunboats, various Lambda shuttles and stormtrooper transports, multiple shield projectors (two for the bridge alone), and some had up to four Warhead launch systems. Along with a prefab garrison and a full standard stormtrooper regiment, even a Crippled ISD with a skeleton crew could have taken down the Enterprise. (normal crew compliment: 36,785.) The power source was a solar ionization reactor, in essence an artificial star at the heart of the vessel that produces power into and beyond the Terawatt (terrawatt-1000 Gigawatts) range. You need not convince me of the awesome power and technology present and available to the Imperial fleet, you need only convince me of ways to make a good fight of it from somewhere else in Science fiction. BTW, I disagree about the clan absorption.. I think they would try to fight, but would be overrun at every turn, sparking civilian uprising until the Empire found out about, and used, a trial of absorption, at which a few AT series "mechs" blasted the best Dire Wolves, Warhawks, and Elementals the Clans could offer up. I see your point on the Borg however, and adjust my comments accordingly... They were what "could have " been but were not...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
07/26/04 09:34 PM
67.64.104.23
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You wouldn't happen to know what the damage output of walker class weapons is do you? Preferably maximum sustainable firepower as opposed to maximum firepower.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Greyslayer
07/26/04 11:33 PM
203.61.72.73
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'The Galactic Patrol: throw planets at the Empire.'
'The Archangels: PALPATINE!!! I CAST THEE DOWN!!! or something. Of course they don't really need archangels for that.... '
Are these Sci Fi 'licences' though? EE Doc Smith really wrote some trash there, much of it was like it was written by 7 yr olds arguing over who had the most powerful weapon:
eg
-Skylark Valeron :- Dick Seaton defeated 'gods'.
-Skylark DuQuesne :- DuQuesne with the outdated plans to Seaton's ship destroyed 50 planets in a matter of moment of a vast intergalatic empire of the chlorans.
Discussing or in fact explaining anything beyond 'marvelous' american weapons (such as the Colt 45) which have nothing to do with what the novels were supposed to be which was a sci-fi series based funnily enough in space. Hopefully your hope of defeating the empire does not rest on this 'licence' or any other of EE Doc Smith's?
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Spartan
07/27/04 10:54 AM
66.142.170.86
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Well, to be honest I know nothing really of The Galactic Patrol. You'd have to talk to cmryan about this. I'm only basing my assumption of possible defeat on their superweapons technology and extrapolating that to mean that they have a tech level at or above that of the Empire.
As for the Archangels, read Nightwards posts. It's an actual sci-fi franchise and since you figure the right hand of God would be virtually all powerful, I'm willing to bet that they could overthrow the Empire. (even if you're not religious or Christian, it's based on Christianity and therefore not unreasonable to assume that the Angels have powers vastly greater than any human.)
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/27/04 08:46 PM
65.1.42.9
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I don't have the walker stats handy, but give me some time, I bet I can find them... *digs into his collection of SW books, new and old* I'll try to get a canon source if I can, but if all I can come up with is quasi-canon (a game or new book) it'll have to do for the purpose of this discussion... Suffice it for now to say that an AT series has a range of at least 5km (chin cannon on the ATAT) and can move at 60kph (90+for the ATST). We already know that no ground based artillery is effective on the composite plating of an ATAT, and it takes sustained heavy fire (or a lucky hit to the gyros) to take down an ATST... Just the mere fact that most licenses don't have much in the way of ground forces at all makes this almost a moot point... Only BattleTech, Robotek, Dune, and Starcraft even have any variance in their ground forces, and none of them boast the numerical or technological advantages inherent in a SINGLE AT-AT walker... But while I'm stat hunting, I'll retrieve the stats for troops and fighters too because I sense this coming up as the next leg in the discussion....
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/27/04 08:49 PM
65.1.42.9
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BTW, I happened to see an episode of the old animated Galactic Patrol Anime, and Now I rearrange my opinion: the Lensmen couldn't even stand up to Stormtroopers IMHO, much less Dark Troopers, Royal Guards, Sith Initiates, or Assassin droids... They were simply galactic policemen... with skills to match that of your local county mounties (or whatever)... Star Wars has something similar- The Corporate Sector Authority's ground "troops", or Espos, who were bullies with little formal training and cheap weapons...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Greyslayer
07/28/04 01:12 AM
216.14.192.234
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This is providing that 'God' in this instance isn't some 'higher' being that just likes being worshipped, eg a transcended alien or even something like a Goa'uld ... a powerful parasite.
As I said all systems have pretty much transcendant beings except possibly Battletech and licences like Asimovs 'Foundation' (second foundation is run by a sect of mind controllers though).
We wouldn't really have to worry about the Empire anyway, they are in a Galaxy Far, far away
Oh and the Replicators on further research break out of their time prison after about 2 years escape the collapsed sun (black hole) that the Asgard (thor's race) had created to destroy them and are probably removed as a threat later through the use of 'disrupter beams'.... I think those episodes either just aired or are about to over in the US.
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cmryan
07/28/04 02:10 AM
4.12.82.110
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Hello Lone_Wolf I have never seen any episodes of a Galactic Patrol Anime. So I don't know if how closely the Anime version is to the book version. I get my opinion and information about the Galactic Patrol from the books written by Doc Smith. This Galactic Patrol could and would give the Empire a run for its money. Lensmen are very highly trained. Five years in a training academy. They are backed up by the full power of the Galactic Patrol a galaxy spanning navy that has and uses world wrecking fire power quite liberally.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/28/04 03:22 PM
65.1.42.9
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Okay, do you have numbers, stats, proof of battles? From what I've read and seen so far, it's fairly hum-drum sci-fi writing involving mind-reading policemen... Not scary... A regiment of Stormtroopers and AT class machinery landing on and taking a planet within hours? Scary. I know of Doc Smith's work, at least a little, and the Galactic patrol doesn't seem like it has the Strength, in numbers, technology, or fortitude to compete with the Empire, whose military alone numbers in the hundreds of Billions, nearly trillions depending on the timeframe. As for the training, Five years of school does not an officer make... Imperial troops, depending on their specialty, are in training for at least that long and get plenty of real world experience right from day one... much like Clanners, who are bred from birth to become the perfect warrior... As for the Replicators, I admit they sound like they would make an unstoppable force, much like Fire Ants or the Borg or Zerg should have been (if not nerfed), but they have, can, and continue to be stopped by 21st Century humans (the stargate folks) and the Asgard... And as far as being in a galaxy far, far away, remember this: I started this thread ASSUMING that all the licenses you know of starting in a common galaxy. Also, Imperial ships can cross their galaxy (which for all intents and purposes is much larger and denser than the Milky way) in a matter of days anyway... I'm surprised however at this point to see that nobody has yet taken into account spies, or profit-motivated species, or even the "galactic rules" gambit... In a drawn out conflict, it is natural to assume that any of the "less than honorable" or "business" oriented races (like the Hutts, Ferengi, Pirates, etc) would sell and acquire all tech they come across, thus propagating technologies to those who shouldn't have it and making things a little more interesting at least... now for the "galactic rules"- It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to assume that anything in this new galaxy our combatants find themselves in would be subject to it's rules- I.E.- it's gravity, passage of time, matter and energy constants, etc. So, anything in this galaxy's outputs and stats could be converted to a common scale to make interaction and especially damage transferrance easier to accomplish... but that may be going a little too deep, even for Sci-Fi...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/28/04 03:37 PM
65.1.42.9
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BTW, Cmryan, I am in no way attempting to insult you or a series you obviously enjoy... But like the many trekkies and even I must admit star wars fans out there, their love for their faves sometimes clouds their objectivity. You can accuse me of this if you wish, you wouldn't be the first, but remember I even looked for chinks in the Imperial armor and brought some new names into the fray... But that leads me to another simple test of common sense... I'll use the Enterprise D, an Imperial Class Star Destroyer, and a lot of ASSUMPTIONS to prove the point... Assuming all weapons of Enterprise and ISD Avenger (we'll call it) do the same amount of damage per shot, and assuming shield energy units were proportional to the power plant of the ship (Enterprise- Somewhere near 300Gigawatts, I think, ISD- Just about 15 Terawatts in the main Solar Ioniztion core), it is still sound to assume the ISD would soundly thrash the Enterprise, nevermind the fact that it's an explorer ship vs. a battleship, fighters vs. none, and no way to repel a boarding party(you're counting on those red-shirt ensigns?)... But let's stick to the numbers of space combat shall we? The Enterprise D has 10 Phaser banks and carries 255 photon Torpedoes and using the power above, about 300 shield units (assuming 1GW-1shield unit). On the Assumption that missing doesn't happen, and the Enterprise can quickly turn to allow all it's banks to fire on one target, and assuming each energy blast does 2 points of shield damage, that's 20 points of shield damage... I'm leaving photons and fighters and ion cannon out for this one or we'd be here all day... Now, ISD's have 60 dual Turbolasers, and a shield strength of about 15,000... 20 damage to the shields, then return fire, even with just 30 (still 60 blasts), and you've already reduced the Enerprise's shields by 1/3... I imagine they hail at this point to save their skins or at least see the faces of their assailants(name me one star trek episode where they don't talk to their attackers and just fight, and fight well), and the Imperials oblige, just long enough to determine wether or not this ship is worth capture. The rest speaks for itself... Even putting them on a level field of play and leaving out many options, the Enterprise still falls quickly, three rounds by my count... I doubt anything unshielded or of lesser tech (like Dune, Starcraft) could fare much better, but I'm open to suggestions...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/28/04 08:03 PM
68.136.26.17
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Hello Lone_Wolf I know your are not attempting to insult me. I would like to spend some time researching and comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Empire and the Galactic Patro. Unfortunately I cannot since I ran into a cash crunch several years ago and gave away most of my paperback collection to a local library for a tax deduction. Also I recently discovered Stardestroyer.net and have gotten an eyeful about just how powerful the Empire is and that the standards of evidence are tough. So I will continue to enjoy the idea of a face off between the Empire and the Galactic Patrol. I won't be able to debate the evidence in the forseeable future.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/28/04 10:26 PM
65.1.42.9
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Stardestroyer.net is a great place, but like I warned before, some of the entries are colored by emotion... Can you blame them though? Some are quite scientifically sound though... and I appreciate your continued open-mindedness and thank you for bringing yet another license into the fray, it can only make it more interesting, even if it turns out that nobody can really beat the Empire...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Omega
07/29/04 02:07 AM
65.156.164.99
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Not a fat Chance can Star Wars beat Star Trek Ships or tech for that matter.
also the fact that ST now has Fighters of their own that can carry class 4 Phasers, can carry all forms of Torps as well as Tracker Beems lets not for get Shields and the mighty Q(a god like race so haha)
also lets not forget ST teck that would let them beam people right out of their ships and beam them in to open space..lets see you SW people's worthless Jedi breath in space hahaha 
"There are two Main enemys of a Merc.
Heat & the most deadly of Foes our Financing".
(Drawing done by LawGiver)
"A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is Finished When he quits"-President R. M. Nixon
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Greyslayer
07/29/04 02:41 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
As for the Replicators, I admit they sound like they would make an unstoppable force, much like Fire Ants or the Borg or Zerg should have been (if not nerfed), but they have, can, and continue to be stopped by 21st Century humans (the stargate folks) and the Asgard...
Are you playing down the importance of the Asgard in this? They can travel between galaxies in a mater of days, teleport more than just a few people about (like entire crews and supplies all at once) and until the coming of Anubis could take down several Ha'tak vessels (the larger pyramid goa'uld vessels) with a single ship. The replicators main disadvantage during all these contacts with the SG1 team was that 21st or 20th century earth equipment is of no interest to them. Until they do something that is a threat they generally didn't do anything, they have evolved 'human' replicators which are still metal that are made up of little blocks but now have greater ability to determine threat analysis and so on, these do tend to be a bit unpredictable. The replicators may have been destroyed during the 8th series so I don't know, pretty good enemy since all they were are the toys of a faulty andriod.
Quote:
And as far as being in a galaxy far, far away, remember this: I started this thread ASSUMING that all the licenses you know of starting in a common galaxy.
The Star Gate universe has the replicators and Asgard in another galaxy. Are we to assume then that since you threw conveniently the Imperials in the one galaxy with everyone else these would be thrown in with everyone as well? At what point are you taking the Star Wars version from as well? From during the conflict with the rebels or after or before? This would change the results since fleets of imperial ships were destroyed in much of the conflict.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/29/04 10:33 AM
65.1.42.9
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Incorrect... Fleets were never destroyed, and if you read those rubbish "new republic books" you'll see that the Empire is virtually left alone with 8 sectors of controlled space while aliens invade... I always find it so funny when trekkies try to defend themselves... You can't use transporters until the shields are down, and we already agreed to leave omnipotent races out... Like Q would help the Federation anyways... I need not talk you down on this one, I direct you instead to Stardestroyer.net or do a search on VS. and you'll find some scientifically sound proof that your whipping boy federation types are no match for a good Imperial... BTW, don't assume that just because they're called "lasers" that they're inferior... If you read the operation, the "turbolaser" is much more like a Plasma cannon or a PPC than a laser, which is a heat or beam weapon anyways...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/29/04 10:35 AM
4.12.82.110
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Hello Omega, I don't think that "Tracker Beems" are a major advantage for Star Trek. Start thinking of all the things that can prevent transporter beams from being used. Electromagnetic interference, radiation, some sort of material, shielding( you do know that Star Wars ships carry shielding. The Q any or all of them have treated the StarTrek civilizations and individuals as lab rats or criminal defendants. Why should anyone believe that they would take sides in a Star Wars vs Star Trek war. If your interested in a much more detailed analysis of Star Wars vs Star Trek I recommend stardestroyer. net.
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Spartan
07/29/04 12:23 PM
66.141.170.201
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Transporters? Gee maybe I should put my shields up...
Class 4 Phasers? Are they supposed to frighten me with my billion to trillion gigawatt dissipation shields?
Torps whose max yield is less than 100megatons? Um see my shields.
Q? HA! He'd probably get a kick out of my wide spread butt stomping of the entire Alpha Quadrant.
But I'm being sarcastic, let me instead do an open comparison with canon numbers. I will compare Jango Fetts Slave I with Jean-Luc Piccard's Enterprise D:
Enterprise D
Main Phasers: 3.6 GW total output
Torpedoes: 64 megaton max theoretical(actual would be lower)
Sublight acceleration: 1000G
Range: 2750 light years(7 years at warp 6 before refueling)
Shield Dissipation: 3311 GW total
Reactor Power: 4 billion GW at maximum Warp (9.6)
Maximum Supraluminal Speed: 2000c
Slave I
Main Guns: 64000 GW
Missles: 190 megatons; seismic mines: 12000 megatons
Sublight acceleration: 2500g
Operational Range: never stated- however is estimated to be 150000 light years or greater
Shield Dissipation: neverstated-however is estimated to be 2 billion GW
Reactor Power: neverstated-however is estimated to be 7 billion GW
Maximum Supraluminal Speed: neverstated-however must be in excess of 10 million c due to same day flight from core to galactic outer rim.
Federation beat the Empire? How? They can't even defeat a lightly armed bounty hunter. See above for one of my posts in which I list the stats for the Acclamator troop transport and how much of a mismatch that would be.
Note: All info taken from www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ who in turn got it from Star Wars: Incredible Cross Sections and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. With the exception of Jango's not stated statistics, these were taken from Amidala's non-combat luxury yacht and are likely smaller since Jango is in the habit of upgrading his ship for heavy combat.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/29/04 08:51 PM
129.33.119.12
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You know, facts aside, we'll probably never convince Omega of his folly for the same reason you can't convince any trek Fanboy of their folly: The inability to accept the truth when shown, because it would simply shatter their little world. Trek fans are the worst at this by far, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a star Wars fan, it's been proven time and time again, in the face of scientific fact or overwhelming dissent, they all simply revert into "shut up, you're stupid!" mode and bug out... Just like in a typical episode of star trek- where they run into something they can't beat, then go to a "to be continued" episode so the writers have time to nerf the threat down to something manageable... But I'd expect someone using an Urbie (battletech's version of the red-shirt ensign) to be a defender of Trek... Take the numbers from where you want, use whatever timeline you want, but the facts will NOT change... Notice also the Enterprise has NO emergency Bulkheads, they depend on forcefields to contain hull breaches... This is not technically sound, for theoretically anything with the power to penetrate both the shields AND the hull would cause at least temporary power loss, and thus render the field inoperable, and causing decompression of the ship, Red shirts and all... But that is another topic- the physical errors inherent in Federation design...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/29/04 08:57 PM
129.33.119.12
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100 Megatons? Is that all? In 2004 we can already make a warhead capable of delivering 50... Is that all we've progressed in guided munitions? Let's hope not... and another thing- How do you MISS a target at 300 meters with a BEAM WEAPON with COMPUTER LOCKED TARGETING? Apparently in Trek world "target Locked" and "Beam weapon" mean something other than they do in the real world... But I don't want this to become another flamewar of Star Wars Vs. Star Trek, because that's already been done and won by the Star Wars people, I was trying to find someone else's license that could put up a good fight because it's been determined that the Trek Franchise would quickly be overrun. BTW, hand-held thermal detonators in Star Wars have yields going as high as 5 Megatons... If a "hand grenade" in Star Wars does so much harm, what then would the warhead known as "heavy space bomb" be capable of? My guess is something more than 100 Megatons, because it's designed to cripple space stations with shields greater than even a Star Destroyer...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
07/29/04 10:44 PM
66.141.170.201
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I used 100 megatons to indicate order of magnitude. The max theoretical yield of a ST torp using 1.5kg of antimatter for it's warhead is 64.3 megatons, roughly twice that for a quantam torpedo. But the 64 MTs assumes 100% effeciency so it's merely an upper limit.
They are capable of increasing the output of their weapons (add more antimatter) but they simply don't for whatever reason.
As for the damage caused by a heavy space bomb, it would likely be more than 100 megatons. The shields on a ISD can stand up to shots in the range of 200 gigatons from a heavy turbolaser so 100 megatons would not be terribly bothersome to them.
Now, about your assertion about the Trekkie fan-boy stubbornness. I don't know Omega so I don't know whether he is this or not and I'm willing to at least give him the benefit of the doubt. However, since you also state that it doesn't matter what book I get my info from I will, simply for the sake of discussion, use the What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get principle. One can argue numbers till you're blue in the face, but you can not dispute what has "actually" happened.
Star Trek
Planetary destruction: 30-ship bombardment in "The Die is Cast" (surface-level explosions create fireballs in the megaton range at most, judging from fireball duration). No sub-orbital ejecta launched from planet's surface at all.
Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).
Combat range: fleet actions in DS9 uniformly feature engagements at ranges of 5 km or less, just as they do in TNG's Klingon wars or Borg engagements. In "The Die is Cast", Sisko actually orders the Defiant to approach to 500 metres (while taking fire) before shooting at a Jem'Hadar attack ship, presumably due to some disadvantage incurred at longer range. The only long-ranged incidents involve stationary or near-stationary targets.
Speed: Voyager took 7 years to crawl across part of one quadrant of the galaxy, even with repeated assists from alien races, stolen technology, and even the occasional shove from a godlike being. Not hours ... years.
Star Wars
Planetary destruction: Death Star blast (roughly 20 billion trillion megatons, ie- the number "two" followed by 22 zeroes). Planet blown apart at 5% of the speed of light. Even if we assume the shot was time-lapse photography (not that there's any reason to), the absolute lower limit is roughly 50 quadrillion megatons. Note that even if you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer), you'd still have 5 billion megatons. More than a match for poor Enterprise.
Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.
Combat range: in ROTJ, combat initially occurs at ranges of a few thousands kilometres, eventually closing to a few hundred kilometres ("point blank" according to Lando) until Rebel ships are within a few dozen kilometres of the Executor.
Speed: travel from galactic core systems to outer rim systems ("halfway across the galaxy" as Amidala put it) is shown repeatedly in ANH, TPM, and AOTC. It is invariably same-day traffic, typically a few hours.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Greyslayer
07/30/04 12:57 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
I always find it so funny when trekkies try to defend themselves... You can't use transporters until the shields are down,
Listen/read/whatever, I never said anything about trekkies. Stop being so ignorant and read a post, it shouldn't be that hard even for a star wars nutter.
Quote:
and we already agreed to leave omnipotent races out... Like Q would help the Federation anyways... I need not talk you down on this one,
I think I do need to talk down to you. The Asgard are a 'normal' race. In Star Gate the omnipotent race are the 'ancients' not the Asgard. Now this is looking far like you posting this particular post against the wrong post, which wouldn't help in future arguments as to the veracity of your statements.
I direct you instead to Stardestroyer.net or do a search on VS. and you'll find some scientifically sound proof that your whipping boy federation types are no match for a good Imperial... BTW, don't assume that just because they're called "lasers" that they're inferior... If you read the operation, the "turbolaser" is much more like a Plasma cannon or a PPC than a laser, which is a heat or beam weapon anyways...
Being neither interested in being a 'whipping boy federation type' nor really interested in going to a fanboy star wars site, this point is highly irrelevant to myself. It probably needs to be better directed, thus reading people's posts properly and replying directly to them would help in any future confusion....
Don't get so wrapped up in your rabid 'star wars rulez' persona.
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