Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/24/04 04:15 PM
65.1.53.170
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I know I'm asking for trouble, but--- Being as subjective as possible and ignoring most of the technical differences, imagine every sci-fi license you can think of all finding themselves in a fictional galaxy. Now Imagine who would ally, who would die, and who would eventually find themselves conquered or alone on top of this galaxy. As much as I love BattleTech and Star Wars, I'd find it hard to believe even the Mighty Empire or the Clans could survive some of the fantastic stuff that's out there... Now, for fairness's sake, imagine each faction is at their strongest. This was once going to be the subject of quite a few "fan films" made by amateurs, since in reality there would be no way that all those license holders would agree and collaborate on a project that could possibly end in disaster for their creation at the hands of someone else's. The project I saw had included Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon 5, Robotek (I hear the boos already) Battletech, Battlestar Galactica, Transformers, Starship Troopers, Exo-Squad, Terminator, and Alien/Predator, with the eventual winners being the Empire, narrowly beating the Borg through simple attrition. Comments, Questions, Flames even? Hey, it said "off topic", so don't blame me...
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Spartan
06/24/04 09:34 PM
66.141.167.172
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The Empire would win hands down. In fact, it would hardly be a contest. Why? www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ has it all spelled out.
That site it geared specifically towards Star Wars vs Star Trek but the arguments can be applied towards just about any other franchise with little to no revision.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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JStallion
06/24/04 11:29 PM
69.244.182.44
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Well that sums up this topic lol 
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Spartan
06/24/04 11:35 PM
66.141.167.172
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I know. It's almost anti-climatic.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/24/04 11:57 PM
65.1.53.170
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I'm not sure it's that simple... I love the Empire too, but... Remember they were crippled by the rebels and that punk skywalker kid, and that was movie canon... The question remains: does each individual faction unite against the others, or do they continue their own petty wars while attacking and allying with the newcomers? And how would our fair Battletech fare in turn? I would have to agree that the Empire would win, if for no other reason than through simple attrition, but it's the getting there that I'd like to hear...
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Spartan
06/25/04 12:51 AM
66.141.167.172
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Crippled? Hardly. Yes they lost a few ships at the Battle of Endor as well as the Death Star. But what of the rest of the fleet? It wasn't all at Endor. Besides, the Empire has production capabilities that vastly outstrip any other scifi faction of which I am aware. Want proof? Ask yourself this, how was Death Star 2 built so quickly?
And it's not attrition, that will win them the fight, it's their vastly superior speed and firepower. Think about it. In other scifi series it takes months, even years to cross even a small section of territory. The Empire could do it in a matter of days or weeks. As for firepower, the Death Star is not the only super weapons available to them. And even their non-super weapons are increadibly powerful, they have weapons that can vaporize nickel-iron asteroids that mass millions of tons, not destroy, not shatter, vaporize.
And why are we arbitraily picking a point in time when the Empire is at worst weakened and fractured?
Also we have no reason to believe that the other factions would unite against a common foe. Look at STDS9, even when a common foe appeared the Klingons, Romulans, Borg, Federation, etc. didn't unite, in fact some even sided with the Dominion.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/25/04 01:51 AM
65.1.53.170
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I say crippled, because I'm judging by the drivel that passes as Star Wars Fiction in the EU post Endor Empire, where they fight amongst themselves and are defeated by Aliens and The "new republic" at every turn... Shameful... I agree on the production and speed, and as far as firepower, Besides the Death Star you have the Galaxy Gun, the Eclipse, the Sun Crusher, the World Devastators, Shadow Droids, Dark Troopers, the list goes on... Not to mention that the weapons on Imperial "mechs(the AT series)" have no heat problems and have effective ranges in excess of 2km. My Knowledge of BT may be limited, but my knowledge of the Empire is far-reaching... It is, in fact, quite refreshing to find someone who admires and follows the Empire as I do, and not one of those Rebel Lackeys who justify themselves behind the "good guys always have to win" BS that hollywood sells us... Since when are Traitors to a legally established government "good guys" anyway? Since the American Revolution maybe... but had we lost, history would've been written different to call us all traitors...
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Nightward
06/25/04 05:21 AM
202.141.217.198
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Michael wins.
Go read Lyda Moorehouses' "Archangel Protocol". If you can think up any form of technology or faction that can take out the honest to God (pun intended) Arch-Angels, more power to you.
I can't- after all, Michael is the one who mops the floor with Satan.
Otherwise, probably the Tyranids. So far, all WH40K have seen of them are off-shoots of Hive Fleet Behomoth. If the 'Nids ever actually show up en masse, the show's over.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Spartan
06/25/04 09:11 AM
67.64.112.212
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Well yes they were consistently defeated post-Endor by the Rebels but that's only because Wedge shows up. Or Han shows up. Or Ackbar shows up. Or.... I'ts just a literary device where none of the main characters can go wrong. The good guys can't lose syndrom you mentioned.
But you're right about the fighting amoungst themselves, until someone strong and gutsy enough comes along, even if only briefly. Daala, Thrawn, Pellaeon.
Now, as for losing to aliens. They did lose territory to the Yuuzhan Vong, but that was before Pellaeon stepped up and took complete control. It was only after that that the New Republic started consistently winning major battles. As I recall the New Republic actually went to them for help against the Yuuzhan Vong. And most of their victories before then came from the aforementioned super heroes, as it were, and the new Jedi's
And really if you think about it, the only reason the Rebellion won at the Battle of Endor was because Chewie managed to hijack an ATST. Really. Think about it. (For this ignore all apocrypha and just stick to canon, including novelizations)
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
06/25/04 09:16 AM
67.64.112.212
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Oh sure, bring God into this. 
I'd love to see him step in on the Emperor.
Emperor: You may fire at will commander.
AA Michael: <Blocks beam into space; not out of necessity but just cause he can.>
Emperor: How did you get into my throne room!?!!
AA Michael: <silence>
Emperor: Vader! Destroy him! <Vader begins Force Choke>
Vader: I can not my master. He exists outside the Force.
AA Micahel: <Draws sword of fire, makes a single cut>
External Shot: Death Star explodes. Zoom in on center of explosion. Michael floats there as though nothing happened. Spreads his wings and zooms away out of sight with in a fraction of a second.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/25/04 01:00 PM
129.33.119.12
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I wouldn't exactly call Paelleon a strong gutsy leader... competent perhaps, but too near to retirement to make the difference the Empire truly needs. But you do bring up a good point... Since when would any self-respecting Imperial officer EVER call a truce with the rebels... Aliens or not, they are now and will always be the enemy... As far as God and Arch- Angels, We're talking Science Fiction, not Religious Qausi "I believe it even though I can't see it" doctrine... but that's an interesting point: would the Force exist in this fictional galaxy? But I digress... I agree on sticking to Canon from now on to avoid all the tired literary "all the main characters just win without even a scratch (except poor chewie)" and they live happily ever after while the Empire digs deep to find another officer who was not killed at Endor... BAH...
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Nightward
06/25/04 06:21 PM
202.141.217.66
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Ah, but you missed the caption beneath the final shot:
PWN3D!
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
06/25/04 06:31 PM
202.141.217.66
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Archangel Protocol was an SF novel in which the Arch-Angels were real. Any personal religious bias aside, nothing in any SF ever has had enough power to compare with the Arch-Angels. Nor will it.
(I'm a Christian, and I'm called Michael. I'm probably more than a little biased here, but Michael in the Judeochristian ethos is the second-most powerful being in all of creation. He's a long way behind number one [God], but far and away ahead of number two [Satan].)
As for Chewbacca...man, they had to hit him with a moon to kill him. A freakin' MOON. All your base are belong to teh Wookiez!
Still...nothing on the 'Nids? I reckon if the 'Nids showed up in full force (they're supposed to have eaten other galaxies, after all) things could get quite messy for everyone else.
Or, you know, Miles Vorkosigan and his father Aral could team up and flatten everone else. It's what the Vorkosigans do, after all...
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Spartan
06/25/04 07:46 PM
65.67.114.132
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I must disagree with you there. Under no circumstances would God or any of His Archangels ever, EVER use ub3r 1337 speak, it is the language of the devil.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/26/04 05:57 PM
65.1.53.170
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I doubt anything could compare to archangels, but that is a book I'm unfamiliar with, and it seems close enough to actual doctrine to make it a dangerous arguement at best... as far as the 'nids... I know precious little about WH40k, but if they're anything like the other "assimilate and eat and kill as you go" empires out there (like the Borg, the Zerg, the Zentraedi), they would make it interesting... but I still have to go with the empire... Barring any semi religious sci-fi in the interest of not starting a religion based flame war, I say empire, with or without the force and without the death star. BTW, I'm a christian as well, but I firmly believe in not mixing religion with sci-fi.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/26/04 05:59 PM
65.1.53.170
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Yeah, agree on the Chewie death also.... What kinda stupid way to die is that? At least he could've went out in a blaze of glory, taking the yelping corpses of many enemies with him... a moon... They finally decide to kill off a major character and that's all they could come up with? Man, does SW EU fiction need help or what?
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Nightward
06/26/04 09:53 PM
211.26.23.129
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I thought the moon was great. How many heroes get to say that?
Hero1: "So, ho'd you die?"
Hero 2: "Old age."
Hero 1: "An enemy stabbed me. In the back. Bastard. Hey, rug-boy, how'd you die?"
Chewbacca: "MMMRAAAAOOOWWWWWRRRgghhhh"
Heroes one and Two: "A rock fell on your head, and you died? What kind of rock?"
Chewbacca: "MMRRWWWWAGGHH"
Heroes one and Two: "A MOON? A FRIGGIN' MOON DROPPED ON YOUR HEAD? Wow...that's pretty impressive..."
In Archangel Protocol, humanity built the Link. It's kinda like the Matrix in ShadowRun, but people can access it on the fly.
A guy called "The Mouse" decided to take over the world using the Link, so he began to write programs that could effect people's emotions via the Link. The first Arch-Angel he created was Phanuel, Arch-Angel of Death. He sent it after unbelievers, so they'd convert to Catholicism. Eventually he also built programs for Gabriel and Raphael, who put out the word that Michael was on his way to the Link as well.
The Mouse was going to be elcted as President, and was going to unleash Michael during a speech. The Michael program was going to kill the 85,000 Link-users allowed into the speech room (as Michael wiped out the army of 85,000 Assyrians). I believe these 85K were opposed to the Mouse, but I forget.
Any way, the real Arch-Angels got wind of what was happening and were not overly impressed. However, to fix the problem, they had to assume human form, and all of them managed to screw the job up. Uriel got transgendered for some reason, and Fell. Gabriel got too tied up in its own prophecies. Raphael spiraled into Vengefulness and joined the Malakim Nikamah, an anti-Link guerilla group. Michael showed up last, dragged the other two into some semblance of usefulness, and then proceeded to KICKED ARSE.
Curiously, no mention of Phanuel showing up was ever made. That might be in the sequel, but I haven't read that one yet.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Spartan
06/27/04 02:13 PM
66.142.170.33
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I disagree with you there. I think it was fiting to kill Chewie with a moon. Chewie has always been my favorite character and for me it's sorta of thing where the best way to kill him is not have him live out his life or go down in a blaze of glory with his bowcaster. But dying as his last act is to throw one of Han's sons into the Falcon as it got out by the skin of their teeth. Sort of, he's so tough, you have to drop a moon on him to kill him, because otherwise he'll just shrug it off and keep going.
Having said all that, it still irks me that they chose to kill him. I'd have rather seen C3PO get crushed. Or one of the supporting deus ex machina they always turn to, like Wedge or Ackbar.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
06/27/04 08:50 PM
129.33.119.12
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Yeah, but they won't kill off Wedge or Ackbar because despite the recent book trend of trying to make them into universal heroes, they still don't quite rate "main character" status and therefore would not have shaken up the tired literary device of "the good guys will win without injury"... But I have to disagree about the moon thing... Chewie deserved better... I mean really, an enemy who controlled gravity to crush the poor Wookiee... But I digress... It is on par with EU fiction lately, take that as you please...
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cmryan
07/21/04 04:12 PM
68.136.26.34
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I guess no one hear is familiar with the books by EE Doc Smith featuring the Galactic Patrol and its Lensmen. The Galactic Patrol has its Grand Fleet with maulers, nega-spheres, sun-beams. Lensman are telepathic as long as they wear their Lens and according to the books no Lensman has ever betrayed his oath to the Patrol and the Lens. I think that the Grand Fleet of the Galactic Patrol could meet the Imperial Fleet and beat it. The Lensman are a valuable advantage that the Imperial Fleet does not have. Since the Emperor launched the Clone Wars as a cover to kill all the Jedi.
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Spartan
07/23/04 09:24 AM
67.64.112.200
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What are they able to do with their telepathy?
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/24/04 01:07 PM
129.33.119.12
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This is, of course, assuming that in the galaxy they all find themselves in that their powers are there and usable... like the Force, which I believe would overcome telepathy... Is it just Telepathy or Psycho-Kinetic ability also? and if the lens is broken, do they lose their power or die? What of their overall numbers? I'll still go with the Empire, because unlike these "lensmen" or the Envyyid of Robotek, who have awesome power and numbers, they have an Achilles heel that can be exploited.. The empire, on the other hand, is a varied, combined arms, Galaxy wide military experienced with fighting Aliens and humans alike... Even though this new faction sounds interesting and may make a run of it, my original vote remains unchanged: Empire wins, Borg and Clans put up good fights, Federation and Babylon 5 die off quickly, and everyone else gets absorbed or annihilated...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/24/04 05:55 PM
4.12.82.110
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They can communicate with other Lensman across galactic distances.
They can read the minds of unshielded individuals.
They can control the minds of people and animals at close range.
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Spartan
07/24/04 11:27 PM
67.64.106.166
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How would the Borg and Clans put up a good fight?
The Borg had enough difficulty facing Federation ships whose weapons are several orders of magnitude below that of Star Wars capital ship weapons, imagine what would happen if they faced a fleet of Imperial Class SD's? Or a command fleet centered around a Super Star Destroyer?
And the Clans would have no hope. Again the Imperial fleet would be more than a match. Overwhelming firepower combined with overwhelming numbers.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
07/24/04 11:29 PM
67.64.106.166
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Close range? How close? What constitutes a shielded individual?
Also, what about their technology. What kind of speed are their sub-light and supra-light engines capable of? What are their weapons capable of? Not just superweapons(if any), standard capital ship weapons too.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Greyslayer
07/25/04 02:44 AM
203.61.72.179
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Replicators from Star Gate would 'own' most tech-based cultures since they acquire the technology of those they face pretty quickly.... they even smashed Thor's race who are capable of inter-galaxy travel. The only way they are held at the moment is the time-delay device setup on the replicator base of operations which sets every second to be about 1,000 years or something so that Thor's race could find a way of getting rid of them or fixing them.... maybe a deathstar would come in handy for something? 
before anyone quotes "Q" or any other super sentient and powerful beings basically all sci-fi settings had their own 'god like' beings.
Star Gate have the 'Ancients'
Babylon 5 have an empath that became super sentient in an episode and became a 'cosmic power' of sorts.
Not sure on Farscape, there were some pretty powerful beings but none I saw were truly the godlike ones of the other series....
Its all relative to what sci-fi show you really like.
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cmryan
07/25/04 10:14 AM
4.12.82.110
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Close range is a range usually within the same room. A shielded individual has a personal thought shield generator on his or her body or is in a room that is covered by a thought shield. Technology uses a mixture of vacuum tube and sci-fi. Space ships use "inertialless drive" articfical gravity is available for any type of ship.
Super Weapons:
Hyper Spatial Tube: not a weapon but a technology that allows ships, free planets and even entire space fleets to be transported instantly across intergalactic distances. Its main liability is that you cannot look through it with sensors. You have to determine to your satisfaction that your arrival area is free of any obstruction.
Sun Beam: Convert the entire energy output of a star into a beam of energy. range limitation the beam tends to fall apart by the time the beam reaches the outer reaches of its star system. The other limitation is that if a sunbeam is built in an inhabited system obviously you don't want to deprive the inhabited worlds of light.
Negative Matter: This bears a remarkable resemblence to anti-matter. They can make negative matter in any quantiy.
Free Planets: The inertialess drive can be scaled up to a size that allows planets to be transformed into mobile weapons platforms, or into guided missles.
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Spartan
07/25/04 11:39 AM
67.64.107.248
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Yeah I could see how they could give the Empire a run for it's money. Especially with the planetary missles and sun beams. But what about numbers? How easy is it for them to accomplish these feats? How often can they repeat these feats?
Baring the superweapons, I'm inclined to think the Empire would have an advantage, but to be honest that's based on a lack of information rather than a well thought out argument. I can't seem to find any info on this series except book and movie reviews.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
07/25/04 11:44 AM
67.64.107.248
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I've not been able to follow Stargate for quite some time. How do the Replicators acquire the technology? And what about their industrial capabilities? I mean, if they figure out how to build a Star Destoyer but can only build one every other year (for example) that wouldn't really give them an advantage. But then, if they figure out how to build one every day, they could soon match the Empire's numbers.
I also agree Q should be left out. So should most of the other deus ex machinas that come in every sci-fi series. Some, like the lensman mentioned above, have to be kept in, because they're an integral part of the series but others, Jedi for example, can be left out and not have the universe colapsing on itself.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/25/04 01:06 PM
129.33.119.12
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All this tech aside, all the Replicators, Lensman, Zerg, Envyyid, clans, Borg, Hive, Vorlon or whatever, I don't think any faction in any other license comes near the numbers and variance that the Empire has, even post endor... And I said Clans and Borg put up a good fight because the clans would be absorbed by the Empire and the Borg (not nerfed by Star Trek Writers) have almost the numbers to at least make a run at it... Nothing else I've seen or read has the ground forces and quick deployment capability to hang for very long with the Empire... If special powers, such as the force and folding space and protomatter and all that is disabled, then it becomes a simple military war of attrition, to which the Imperial forces are already accustomed to fighting... If this "battle of the Sci-fi elite" took place royal rumble style, wherein different forces emerged at different times and in different places, someone else may get a shot at the Empire when they first arrive... Other than that, I still can't see a way for anyone to counter 1000's of Star destroyers crewed by Legions of Stormtroopers and pilots, and led by a Meglomaniac Dark Lord of the Sith....
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/25/04 01:09 PM
129.33.119.12
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Amend- the Clans were absorbed and the Borg was non-nerfed in the "arguement" version of the scenario That was presented on another board... I just ran with that example again here... feel more than free to dispute...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/25/04 03:07 PM
4.12.82.110
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The Galactic Patrol is the military arm of its Civilization. Galactic Civiliization spreads across the entire Milky Way Galaxy. Every planet and species belonging Civilization can build and operate an Academy much like our own four year military acadamies. During the fith year of training Lensman candidates will travel in one man speedsters to Arisia for a one on one interview with the Arisians. Any Boskonian spies that have made it to this point will be killed. Desigining and building the first of any type of super weapons takes a few years. I believe that building additional weapons and upgrading will require less time since they have the experience they gained building the prototypes.
The number of Lensmen in service or living till retirement is a small percentage of the number of Patrol men who live till retirement. However given the immense population of Galactic Civilation I believe that their are at least 1million living Lensmen at any given time.
Movie Reviews? I'm unaware of any movies that have ever been made regarding the Lensman. Are these movies based on the novels written by "EE Doc Smith?"
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cmryan
07/25/04 03:13 PM
4.12.82.110
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A Lens can be made only for a currently living being. If a Lensman loses his Lens a new Lens will be sent to him. If and when he dies his Lens will cease to exist. The Lens does not provide or amplify any telekinetic ability. The Galactic Patrol is a Galaxy wide combined arms military organization with a membership provided by all of its members which include aliens at all rank levels and in alll capacities.
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Spartan
07/26/04 12:30 AM
67.64.107.248
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They were old anime's. I googled Galactic Patrol and Lensman and got reviews of them as well as comic books dating back to the 30's IIRC.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Spartan
07/26/04 01:06 AM
67.64.107.248
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>>feel more than free to dispute... <<
Well, if you insist. 
I don't think the Clans would get absorbed. At least, not militarily. I'm fairly certain they would rather die than give up their way of life. Having said that, I'm also willing to bet that the civilians in particular would very quickly try to get on the Empire's good side. Feel more than free to dispute any thing in this paragraph.
As for the Borg, they may have large numbers for a Trek universe species but compared to the Empire they do not. And numbers aside the Empire is simply FAR too dominant in technology for any Star Trek specie to handle. A Star Wars turbolaser would slice through any Star Trek ship that I know of like a red hot buzzsaw through melted butter. Remember that the Galaxy class Starship (TNG Enterprise) has shields that have an energy absorption of 3311 GW while the light turbolasers on an Acclimator Troop Transport have a combined output of 300 million GW. The LIGHT turbolasers. On a troop transport. Not a capitol ship, a troop transport.
On the otherhand, the Enterprise has a 3.6 GW total output for it's phasers and the Acclimator, much smaller than an ISD has a dissipation in the 70 Trillion GW range*. So the Enterpirse would have no hope of damaging a Star Destoyer but the Enterprise would lose it's shields in the first volley and be destroyed in the next in the best case scenario. I doubt the Borg would do much better.
In other words, the Empire does not have a slight advantage in firepower and protection but has Orders of Magnitude Advantages.
*Note: I wasn't able to find numbers on ISD shield dissipation so I just used the Acclimator since that was available. Also note that I'm not including the Ion Cannons that ISDs are armed with, nor am I including damage to the Enterprise due to TIE fighter and bomber attacks. Finally, all this information is taken from www.stardestroyer.net/Empire who in turn got it from the various official books.
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Greyslayer
07/26/04 01:29 AM
216.14.192.233
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Quote:
I've not been able to follow Stargate for quite some time. How do the Replicators acquire the technology? And what about their industrial capabilities? I mean, if they figure out how to build a Star Destoyer but can only build one every other year (for example) that wouldn't really give them an advantage. But then, if they figure out how to build one every day, they could soon match the Empire's numbers.
Essentially Replicators are self-replicating lego pieces. For example, when the replicators crashed on earth they took over a russian sub as a few pieces had survived the crash, the remaining replicators could only be made from the materials of the sub (thus standard ferro-based) and would rust in the sea.... but if they came in contact with a hi-tech culture and captured just 1 of that culture's ships then they basically aquire all the technology used on that ship. Replicators if they capture nearly indestructable metals would be made from that nearly indestructable metals. They don't build much they just fabricate what they need when they capture a unit.
A comparable scenario could be for example an AI that captures mechs, upgrades the mechs but generally leaves them the same but AI controlled and sends them out to get more mechs... they don't need docks or any facilities.
If for example they came accross the Empire, what would probably happen is the Empire would only know they existed after they lost a couple of ships, by then it might be too late as the Empire doesn't have all the greatest tech but the replicators can incorporate pretty much all but BIOTECH into everything they upgrade, so if they came across a Tolan (another Star Gate race, was destroyed by Anubis the Goa'uld crossed with an Ancient)... the tolan were the only ones with the tech to go through solid matter... they could incorporate that tech into torpedoes to disable key systems to allow the capture of more ships.
The borg being partly made of metal would be used to make more replicators and the biomass destroyed, the Borg wouldn't necessarily be able to do much against the replicators since smashing a replicator only means knocking apart a lego... the situation could end up similar to the bad guy in Terminator 2... you keep hitting him but he keeps repairing and going on, they are not quite that powerful (depending on the metal they aquired to be made from).
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Spartan
07/26/04 10:35 AM
67.64.104.23
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Okay so far we have 3 potential challengers to the Empire.
The Replicators: steal all the Empires ships?
The Galactic Patrol: throw planets at the Empire.
The Archangels: PALPATINE!!! I CAST THEE DOWN!!! or something. Of course they don't really need archangels for that....
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/26/04 10:49 AM
65.1.42.9
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I agree with the energy output and firepower thing, but I'm somewhat unfamiliar with this acclimator... Is it the same as the Sentinel class troop transport, or at least similar in size and capability? Arguement aside, kudos to you for finding something IMperial that I am not familiar with...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
07/26/04 11:41 AM
67.64.104.23
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The Acclamator was the precursor to the Victory Class Star Destroyers. It was seen in Ep II. The arrowhead vessels that the clone troopers were boarding. Basically large but *relatively* unshielded and unarmed transport ships. Think a modern day LCAC, which is basically a coverted WWII small aircraft carrier. From this they developed the Victory and then Imperial class Star Destroyers which were obviously not lightly armed transports but heavily armed cruisers.
So instead of 24 light turbo-lasers and 12 heavy they had 60 HTL's as well as 60 Ion Cannons(not sure on the LTL's) and room for 72 fighters. Given all this and the incredible energy dissipation of the Star Destroyer shields the Empire could send a solitary ISD to take on an entire fleet of hundreds of Enterprise-D's and still win with little to no effort.
For size comparisons: the Acclamator was about 760 meters long, the ISD 1600 meters long and the Enterprise was 641 meters.
For a real laugh, look at Mike's comparison of Jango's Slave-I vs the Enterprise-D. The Slave-I STILL defeats the Enterprise with ease.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
Edited by Spartan (07/26/04 11:49 AM)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/26/04 01:08 PM
129.33.119.12
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Oh, that's what they were called... I know all about the VSD, ISD and VSD II and ISD II, The Acclimator slipped me... I guess my new movie knowledge is a bit subpar still... I'm still trying to digest the inconsistencies between the new movies and the old novellizations... I've seen the vs. section on Stardestroyer.net and apart from being hilarious, most are backed by solid fact presented in canon, or real physics... The Imperial Class had 60 XX-9 Dual Heavy Turbolasers, 60 Ion Batteries, 10 Phylon Tractor beam projectors, a full wing of TIE craft (72), 5 assault gunboats, various Lambda shuttles and stormtrooper transports, multiple shield projectors (two for the bridge alone), and some had up to four Warhead launch systems. Along with a prefab garrison and a full standard stormtrooper regiment, even a Crippled ISD with a skeleton crew could have taken down the Enterprise. (normal crew compliment: 36,785.) The power source was a solar ionization reactor, in essence an artificial star at the heart of the vessel that produces power into and beyond the Terawatt (terrawatt-1000 Gigawatts) range. You need not convince me of the awesome power and technology present and available to the Imperial fleet, you need only convince me of ways to make a good fight of it from somewhere else in Science fiction. BTW, I disagree about the clan absorption.. I think they would try to fight, but would be overrun at every turn, sparking civilian uprising until the Empire found out about, and used, a trial of absorption, at which a few AT series "mechs" blasted the best Dire Wolves, Warhawks, and Elementals the Clans could offer up. I see your point on the Borg however, and adjust my comments accordingly... They were what "could have " been but were not...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
07/26/04 09:34 PM
67.64.104.23
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You wouldn't happen to know what the damage output of walker class weapons is do you? Preferably maximum sustainable firepower as opposed to maximum firepower.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Greyslayer
07/26/04 11:33 PM
203.61.72.73
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'The Galactic Patrol: throw planets at the Empire.'
'The Archangels: PALPATINE!!! I CAST THEE DOWN!!! or something. Of course they don't really need archangels for that.... '
Are these Sci Fi 'licences' though? EE Doc Smith really wrote some trash there, much of it was like it was written by 7 yr olds arguing over who had the most powerful weapon:
eg
-Skylark Valeron :- Dick Seaton defeated 'gods'.
-Skylark DuQuesne :- DuQuesne with the outdated plans to Seaton's ship destroyed 50 planets in a matter of moment of a vast intergalatic empire of the chlorans.
Discussing or in fact explaining anything beyond 'marvelous' american weapons (such as the Colt 45) which have nothing to do with what the novels were supposed to be which was a sci-fi series based funnily enough in space. Hopefully your hope of defeating the empire does not rest on this 'licence' or any other of EE Doc Smith's?
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Spartan
07/27/04 10:54 AM
66.142.170.86
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Well, to be honest I know nothing really of The Galactic Patrol. You'd have to talk to cmryan about this. I'm only basing my assumption of possible defeat on their superweapons technology and extrapolating that to mean that they have a tech level at or above that of the Empire.
As for the Archangels, read Nightwards posts. It's an actual sci-fi franchise and since you figure the right hand of God would be virtually all powerful, I'm willing to bet that they could overthrow the Empire. (even if you're not religious or Christian, it's based on Christianity and therefore not unreasonable to assume that the Angels have powers vastly greater than any human.)
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/27/04 08:46 PM
65.1.42.9
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I don't have the walker stats handy, but give me some time, I bet I can find them... *digs into his collection of SW books, new and old* I'll try to get a canon source if I can, but if all I can come up with is quasi-canon (a game or new book) it'll have to do for the purpose of this discussion... Suffice it for now to say that an AT series has a range of at least 5km (chin cannon on the ATAT) and can move at 60kph (90+for the ATST). We already know that no ground based artillery is effective on the composite plating of an ATAT, and it takes sustained heavy fire (or a lucky hit to the gyros) to take down an ATST... Just the mere fact that most licenses don't have much in the way of ground forces at all makes this almost a moot point... Only BattleTech, Robotek, Dune, and Starcraft even have any variance in their ground forces, and none of them boast the numerical or technological advantages inherent in a SINGLE AT-AT walker... But while I'm stat hunting, I'll retrieve the stats for troops and fighters too because I sense this coming up as the next leg in the discussion....
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/27/04 08:49 PM
65.1.42.9
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BTW, I happened to see an episode of the old animated Galactic Patrol Anime, and Now I rearrange my opinion: the Lensmen couldn't even stand up to Stormtroopers IMHO, much less Dark Troopers, Royal Guards, Sith Initiates, or Assassin droids... They were simply galactic policemen... with skills to match that of your local county mounties (or whatever)... Star Wars has something similar- The Corporate Sector Authority's ground "troops", or Espos, who were bullies with little formal training and cheap weapons...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Greyslayer
07/28/04 01:12 AM
216.14.192.234
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This is providing that 'God' in this instance isn't some 'higher' being that just likes being worshipped, eg a transcended alien or even something like a Goa'uld ... a powerful parasite.
As I said all systems have pretty much transcendant beings except possibly Battletech and licences like Asimovs 'Foundation' (second foundation is run by a sect of mind controllers though).
We wouldn't really have to worry about the Empire anyway, they are in a Galaxy Far, far away
Oh and the Replicators on further research break out of their time prison after about 2 years escape the collapsed sun (black hole) that the Asgard (thor's race) had created to destroy them and are probably removed as a threat later through the use of 'disrupter beams'.... I think those episodes either just aired or are about to over in the US.
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cmryan
07/28/04 02:10 AM
4.12.82.110
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Hello Lone_Wolf I have never seen any episodes of a Galactic Patrol Anime. So I don't know if how closely the Anime version is to the book version. I get my opinion and information about the Galactic Patrol from the books written by Doc Smith. This Galactic Patrol could and would give the Empire a run for its money. Lensmen are very highly trained. Five years in a training academy. They are backed up by the full power of the Galactic Patrol a galaxy spanning navy that has and uses world wrecking fire power quite liberally.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/28/04 03:22 PM
65.1.42.9
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Okay, do you have numbers, stats, proof of battles? From what I've read and seen so far, it's fairly hum-drum sci-fi writing involving mind-reading policemen... Not scary... A regiment of Stormtroopers and AT class machinery landing on and taking a planet within hours? Scary. I know of Doc Smith's work, at least a little, and the Galactic patrol doesn't seem like it has the Strength, in numbers, technology, or fortitude to compete with the Empire, whose military alone numbers in the hundreds of Billions, nearly trillions depending on the timeframe. As for the training, Five years of school does not an officer make... Imperial troops, depending on their specialty, are in training for at least that long and get plenty of real world experience right from day one... much like Clanners, who are bred from birth to become the perfect warrior... As for the Replicators, I admit they sound like they would make an unstoppable force, much like Fire Ants or the Borg or Zerg should have been (if not nerfed), but they have, can, and continue to be stopped by 21st Century humans (the stargate folks) and the Asgard... And as far as being in a galaxy far, far away, remember this: I started this thread ASSUMING that all the licenses you know of starting in a common galaxy. Also, Imperial ships can cross their galaxy (which for all intents and purposes is much larger and denser than the Milky way) in a matter of days anyway... I'm surprised however at this point to see that nobody has yet taken into account spies, or profit-motivated species, or even the "galactic rules" gambit... In a drawn out conflict, it is natural to assume that any of the "less than honorable" or "business" oriented races (like the Hutts, Ferengi, Pirates, etc) would sell and acquire all tech they come across, thus propagating technologies to those who shouldn't have it and making things a little more interesting at least... now for the "galactic rules"- It wouldn't be too far of a stretch to assume that anything in this new galaxy our combatants find themselves in would be subject to it's rules- I.E.- it's gravity, passage of time, matter and energy constants, etc. So, anything in this galaxy's outputs and stats could be converted to a common scale to make interaction and especially damage transferrance easier to accomplish... but that may be going a little too deep, even for Sci-Fi...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/28/04 03:37 PM
65.1.42.9
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BTW, Cmryan, I am in no way attempting to insult you or a series you obviously enjoy... But like the many trekkies and even I must admit star wars fans out there, their love for their faves sometimes clouds their objectivity. You can accuse me of this if you wish, you wouldn't be the first, but remember I even looked for chinks in the Imperial armor and brought some new names into the fray... But that leads me to another simple test of common sense... I'll use the Enterprise D, an Imperial Class Star Destroyer, and a lot of ASSUMPTIONS to prove the point... Assuming all weapons of Enterprise and ISD Avenger (we'll call it) do the same amount of damage per shot, and assuming shield energy units were proportional to the power plant of the ship (Enterprise- Somewhere near 300Gigawatts, I think, ISD- Just about 15 Terawatts in the main Solar Ioniztion core), it is still sound to assume the ISD would soundly thrash the Enterprise, nevermind the fact that it's an explorer ship vs. a battleship, fighters vs. none, and no way to repel a boarding party(you're counting on those red-shirt ensigns?)... But let's stick to the numbers of space combat shall we? The Enterprise D has 10 Phaser banks and carries 255 photon Torpedoes and using the power above, about 300 shield units (assuming 1GW-1shield unit). On the Assumption that missing doesn't happen, and the Enterprise can quickly turn to allow all it's banks to fire on one target, and assuming each energy blast does 2 points of shield damage, that's 20 points of shield damage... I'm leaving photons and fighters and ion cannon out for this one or we'd be here all day... Now, ISD's have 60 dual Turbolasers, and a shield strength of about 15,000... 20 damage to the shields, then return fire, even with just 30 (still 60 blasts), and you've already reduced the Enerprise's shields by 1/3... I imagine they hail at this point to save their skins or at least see the faces of their assailants(name me one star trek episode where they don't talk to their attackers and just fight, and fight well), and the Imperials oblige, just long enough to determine wether or not this ship is worth capture. The rest speaks for itself... Even putting them on a level field of play and leaving out many options, the Enterprise still falls quickly, three rounds by my count... I doubt anything unshielded or of lesser tech (like Dune, Starcraft) could fare much better, but I'm open to suggestions...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/28/04 08:03 PM
68.136.26.17
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Hello Lone_Wolf I know your are not attempting to insult me. I would like to spend some time researching and comparing the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Empire and the Galactic Patro. Unfortunately I cannot since I ran into a cash crunch several years ago and gave away most of my paperback collection to a local library for a tax deduction. Also I recently discovered Stardestroyer.net and have gotten an eyeful about just how powerful the Empire is and that the standards of evidence are tough. So I will continue to enjoy the idea of a face off between the Empire and the Galactic Patrol. I won't be able to debate the evidence in the forseeable future.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/28/04 10:26 PM
65.1.42.9
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Stardestroyer.net is a great place, but like I warned before, some of the entries are colored by emotion... Can you blame them though? Some are quite scientifically sound though... and I appreciate your continued open-mindedness and thank you for bringing yet another license into the fray, it can only make it more interesting, even if it turns out that nobody can really beat the Empire...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Omega
07/29/04 02:07 AM
65.156.164.99
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Not a fat Chance can Star Wars beat Star Trek Ships or tech for that matter.
also the fact that ST now has Fighters of their own that can carry class 4 Phasers, can carry all forms of Torps as well as Tracker Beems lets not for get Shields and the mighty Q(a god like race so haha)
also lets not forget ST teck that would let them beam people right out of their ships and beam them in to open space..lets see you SW people's worthless Jedi breath in space hahaha 
"There are two Main enemys of a Merc.
Heat & the most deadly of Foes our Financing".
(Drawing done by LawGiver)
"A man is not finished when he is defeated. He is Finished When he quits"-President R. M. Nixon
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Greyslayer
07/29/04 02:41 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
As for the Replicators, I admit they sound like they would make an unstoppable force, much like Fire Ants or the Borg or Zerg should have been (if not nerfed), but they have, can, and continue to be stopped by 21st Century humans (the stargate folks) and the Asgard...
Are you playing down the importance of the Asgard in this? They can travel between galaxies in a mater of days, teleport more than just a few people about (like entire crews and supplies all at once) and until the coming of Anubis could take down several Ha'tak vessels (the larger pyramid goa'uld vessels) with a single ship. The replicators main disadvantage during all these contacts with the SG1 team was that 21st or 20th century earth equipment is of no interest to them. Until they do something that is a threat they generally didn't do anything, they have evolved 'human' replicators which are still metal that are made up of little blocks but now have greater ability to determine threat analysis and so on, these do tend to be a bit unpredictable. The replicators may have been destroyed during the 8th series so I don't know, pretty good enemy since all they were are the toys of a faulty andriod.
Quote:
And as far as being in a galaxy far, far away, remember this: I started this thread ASSUMING that all the licenses you know of starting in a common galaxy.
The Star Gate universe has the replicators and Asgard in another galaxy. Are we to assume then that since you threw conveniently the Imperials in the one galaxy with everyone else these would be thrown in with everyone as well? At what point are you taking the Star Wars version from as well? From during the conflict with the rebels or after or before? This would change the results since fleets of imperial ships were destroyed in much of the conflict.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/29/04 10:33 AM
65.1.42.9
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Incorrect... Fleets were never destroyed, and if you read those rubbish "new republic books" you'll see that the Empire is virtually left alone with 8 sectors of controlled space while aliens invade... I always find it so funny when trekkies try to defend themselves... You can't use transporters until the shields are down, and we already agreed to leave omnipotent races out... Like Q would help the Federation anyways... I need not talk you down on this one, I direct you instead to Stardestroyer.net or do a search on VS. and you'll find some scientifically sound proof that your whipping boy federation types are no match for a good Imperial... BTW, don't assume that just because they're called "lasers" that they're inferior... If you read the operation, the "turbolaser" is much more like a Plasma cannon or a PPC than a laser, which is a heat or beam weapon anyways...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/29/04 10:35 AM
4.12.82.110
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Hello Omega, I don't think that "Tracker Beems" are a major advantage for Star Trek. Start thinking of all the things that can prevent transporter beams from being used. Electromagnetic interference, radiation, some sort of material, shielding( you do know that Star Wars ships carry shielding. The Q any or all of them have treated the StarTrek civilizations and individuals as lab rats or criminal defendants. Why should anyone believe that they would take sides in a Star Wars vs Star Trek war. If your interested in a much more detailed analysis of Star Wars vs Star Trek I recommend stardestroyer. net.
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Spartan
07/29/04 12:23 PM
66.141.170.201
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Transporters? Gee maybe I should put my shields up...
Class 4 Phasers? Are they supposed to frighten me with my billion to trillion gigawatt dissipation shields?
Torps whose max yield is less than 100megatons? Um see my shields.
Q? HA! He'd probably get a kick out of my wide spread butt stomping of the entire Alpha Quadrant.
But I'm being sarcastic, let me instead do an open comparison with canon numbers. I will compare Jango Fetts Slave I with Jean-Luc Piccard's Enterprise D:
Enterprise D
Main Phasers: 3.6 GW total output
Torpedoes: 64 megaton max theoretical(actual would be lower)
Sublight acceleration: 1000G
Range: 2750 light years(7 years at warp 6 before refueling)
Shield Dissipation: 3311 GW total
Reactor Power: 4 billion GW at maximum Warp (9.6)
Maximum Supraluminal Speed: 2000c
Slave I
Main Guns: 64000 GW
Missles: 190 megatons; seismic mines: 12000 megatons
Sublight acceleration: 2500g
Operational Range: never stated- however is estimated to be 150000 light years or greater
Shield Dissipation: neverstated-however is estimated to be 2 billion GW
Reactor Power: neverstated-however is estimated to be 7 billion GW
Maximum Supraluminal Speed: neverstated-however must be in excess of 10 million c due to same day flight from core to galactic outer rim.
Federation beat the Empire? How? They can't even defeat a lightly armed bounty hunter. See above for one of my posts in which I list the stats for the Acclamator troop transport and how much of a mismatch that would be.
Note: All info taken from www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/ who in turn got it from Star Wars: Incredible Cross Sections and the Star Trek Next Generation Technical Manual. With the exception of Jango's not stated statistics, these were taken from Amidala's non-combat luxury yacht and are likely smaller since Jango is in the habit of upgrading his ship for heavy combat.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/29/04 08:51 PM
129.33.119.12
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You know, facts aside, we'll probably never convince Omega of his folly for the same reason you can't convince any trek Fanboy of their folly: The inability to accept the truth when shown, because it would simply shatter their little world. Trek fans are the worst at this by far, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a star Wars fan, it's been proven time and time again, in the face of scientific fact or overwhelming dissent, they all simply revert into "shut up, you're stupid!" mode and bug out... Just like in a typical episode of star trek- where they run into something they can't beat, then go to a "to be continued" episode so the writers have time to nerf the threat down to something manageable... But I'd expect someone using an Urbie (battletech's version of the red-shirt ensign) to be a defender of Trek... Take the numbers from where you want, use whatever timeline you want, but the facts will NOT change... Notice also the Enterprise has NO emergency Bulkheads, they depend on forcefields to contain hull breaches... This is not technically sound, for theoretically anything with the power to penetrate both the shields AND the hull would cause at least temporary power loss, and thus render the field inoperable, and causing decompression of the ship, Red shirts and all... But that is another topic- the physical errors inherent in Federation design...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/29/04 08:57 PM
129.33.119.12
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100 Megatons? Is that all? In 2004 we can already make a warhead capable of delivering 50... Is that all we've progressed in guided munitions? Let's hope not... and another thing- How do you MISS a target at 300 meters with a BEAM WEAPON with COMPUTER LOCKED TARGETING? Apparently in Trek world "target Locked" and "Beam weapon" mean something other than they do in the real world... But I don't want this to become another flamewar of Star Wars Vs. Star Trek, because that's already been done and won by the Star Wars people, I was trying to find someone else's license that could put up a good fight because it's been determined that the Trek Franchise would quickly be overrun. BTW, hand-held thermal detonators in Star Wars have yields going as high as 5 Megatons... If a "hand grenade" in Star Wars does so much harm, what then would the warhead known as "heavy space bomb" be capable of? My guess is something more than 100 Megatons, because it's designed to cripple space stations with shields greater than even a Star Destroyer...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
07/29/04 10:44 PM
66.141.170.201
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I used 100 megatons to indicate order of magnitude. The max theoretical yield of a ST torp using 1.5kg of antimatter for it's warhead is 64.3 megatons, roughly twice that for a quantam torpedo. But the 64 MTs assumes 100% effeciency so it's merely an upper limit.
They are capable of increasing the output of their weapons (add more antimatter) but they simply don't for whatever reason.
As for the damage caused by a heavy space bomb, it would likely be more than 100 megatons. The shields on a ISD can stand up to shots in the range of 200 gigatons from a heavy turbolaser so 100 megatons would not be terribly bothersome to them.
Now, about your assertion about the Trekkie fan-boy stubbornness. I don't know Omega so I don't know whether he is this or not and I'm willing to at least give him the benefit of the doubt. However, since you also state that it doesn't matter what book I get my info from I will, simply for the sake of discussion, use the What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get principle. One can argue numbers till you're blue in the face, but you can not dispute what has "actually" happened.
Star Trek
Planetary destruction: 30-ship bombardment in "The Die is Cast" (surface-level explosions create fireballs in the megaton range at most, judging from fireball duration). No sub-orbital ejecta launched from planet's surface at all.
Asteroid destruction: according to Riker, it would take the entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a single 5km wide hollow asteroid in "Pegasus". In other words, it would take the entire payload of the Enterprise-D (a capital warship with a crew of a thousand) to equal just one of Jango Fett's seismic charges (a bounty hunter's weapon).
Combat range: fleet actions in DS9 uniformly feature engagements at ranges of 5 km or less, just as they do in TNG's Klingon wars or Borg engagements. In "The Die is Cast", Sisko actually orders the Defiant to approach to 500 metres (while taking fire) before shooting at a Jem'Hadar attack ship, presumably due to some disadvantage incurred at longer range. The only long-ranged incidents involve stationary or near-stationary targets.
Speed: Voyager took 7 years to crawl across part of one quadrant of the galaxy, even with repeated assists from alien races, stolen technology, and even the occasional shove from a godlike being. Not hours ... years.
Star Wars
Planetary destruction: Death Star blast (roughly 20 billion trillion megatons, ie- the number "two" followed by 22 zeroes). Planet blown apart at 5% of the speed of light. Even if we assume the shot was time-lapse photography (not that there's any reason to), the absolute lower limit is roughly 50 quadrillion megatons. Note that even if you scale this monster down by a factor of 10 million (to the volume of a Star Destroyer), you'd still have 5 billion megatons. More than a match for poor Enterprise.
Asteroid destruction: Jango Fett's seismic charges destroy asteroids in a radius of 5-10 km in AOTC.
Combat range: in ROTJ, combat initially occurs at ranges of a few thousands kilometres, eventually closing to a few hundred kilometres ("point blank" according to Lando) until Rebel ships are within a few dozen kilometres of the Executor.
Speed: travel from galactic core systems to outer rim systems ("halfway across the galaxy" as Amidala put it) is shown repeatedly in ANH, TPM, and AOTC. It is invariably same-day traffic, typically a few hours.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Greyslayer
07/30/04 12:57 AM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
I always find it so funny when trekkies try to defend themselves... You can't use transporters until the shields are down,
Listen/read/whatever, I never said anything about trekkies. Stop being so ignorant and read a post, it shouldn't be that hard even for a star wars nutter.
Quote:
and we already agreed to leave omnipotent races out... Like Q would help the Federation anyways... I need not talk you down on this one,
I think I do need to talk down to you. The Asgard are a 'normal' race. In Star Gate the omnipotent race are the 'ancients' not the Asgard. Now this is looking far like you posting this particular post against the wrong post, which wouldn't help in future arguments as to the veracity of your statements.
I direct you instead to Stardestroyer.net or do a search on VS. and you'll find some scientifically sound proof that your whipping boy federation types are no match for a good Imperial... BTW, don't assume that just because they're called "lasers" that they're inferior... If you read the operation, the "turbolaser" is much more like a Plasma cannon or a PPC than a laser, which is a heat or beam weapon anyways...
Being neither interested in being a 'whipping boy federation type' nor really interested in going to a fanboy star wars site, this point is highly irrelevant to myself. It probably needs to be better directed, thus reading people's posts properly and replying directly to them would help in any future confusion....
Don't get so wrapped up in your rabid 'star wars rulez' persona.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/30/04 04:33 PM
129.33.119.12
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Perhaps I should have clarified myself, my post was mostly meant as a jest at Omega, but since you seem to have had a nerve hit, you kindof proved my point by going into "shut up you're stupid" mode without adding to the discussion... I did take a shot at Omega yes, but it was in jest, and furthermore, if you disagree with what I'm saying that's fine, that's why I started this thread, but be more educated about it... I even tried to find chinks in the Imperial armor at the start of this thread and continue to look for them... I'd rather this post not de-volve into a ST VS SW flamewar, like I said that's already been done and my goal is not to insult anyone, but rather get a new view on a Grand Scale VS conflict... That means licenses OTHER than SW VS ST... here's a new twist... Anyone with Stats, numbers or whatever for any license not yet mentioned, or info to fill in would be helpful... But the new twist: Which of the Factions involved so far would make good hybrid mixes, allies, spies, etc? Which race from one universe would be most likely to survive in another? Myself, I think I'd have to go with Human first, because they're everywhere, the one common thread, then probably the Mon Calamari from SW and the Romulans from ST, followed by the Vorlons from Babylon 5. Once again, fans of whatever you may be, I meant no offense, it's just a post, let's leave it as such and return to topic. Thank you.
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/30/04 04:37 PM
129.33.119.12
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BTW, I don't really consider Stardestoyer.net as a Fanboy site, because they at least used CANON info from both sides of the discussion, and at least some of the posters made a concious effort to not insult either side... But if that's not enough for ya, there is another site out there that simply does VS things, and among SW VS ST there's also Alien, Predator (other good factions to add I think) King Kong VS Godzilla, some are very entertaining... Give it a shot, post your own if you dispute it, variety is the spice of life...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/30/04 05:37 PM
68.136.84.24
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Hello Lone_Wolf, I agree Humans can survive just about anywhere. I think Wookies would have better odds surviving in a change of universe setting. They can fight they are very familiar with technology. The Mon Calimari I believe are very dependant on having a lot of water in their enviroment. So If a Mon Calimari and a Wookie got shipped to Arrakis I think the Wookie would survive.
The trueborn warriors of the Clans once they got a good look at the size of the Galactic Empire would be vulnerable to recruitment by the Empire. The warrior doing the recruiting could very easily promise autonomy and high rank in the Empire and the Empire would receive Omni Mechs. The twist here is that the Empire is so big the trueborn will simply be absorbed into the immense population of the Empire.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
07/30/04 10:56 PM
65.1.42.9
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Nicely played, cmryan, I see your point about the moisture necessary for Mon Cal Survival... Wookies perhaps, but they prefer heights and Arrakis doesn't exactly have many trees... Perhaps the Sand people, though not advanced, would fare better at least there, where I think they'd find kindred spirits in the Fremen, no? As far as mixes and allies, I agree about the clans being seduced by the promise of power and glory in the Empire, with nothing else to fight (all being in a neutral universe and all) they'd find a way to wage war somewhere against someone. But I think they'd make the Empire or whoever wished to ally with them earn it on the field of battle first through a series of trials...and would that by default lead the IS to ally with whoever opposed the faction to absorb the clans? Mixes... Hmm... An Assimilated Death Star, a Replicant controlled Guild Jumpship, A Zerg Infested Zentraedi, a mix of Jedi and Asgard, or Lensman even? The possibilities are endless, and each has it's own tantalizing possibilities. As for best Spies? Predator, perhaps? Possibly the Romulan Tal Shi'ar or Imperial Intelligence, or a single replicator infesting a comm device... I think the "business oriented" or "less than honorable" races among this fight and even the minor players have an advantage here... Whilst the "major" players battle it out, it is tactically sound to assume the minor players would hang back and keep themselves under the radar, while learning and attempting to gather intel and equipment... With luck and good purchasing, they just may have a chance to jump on the victor of a larger engagement and come out a major player themselves... It's a sound philosophy dating all the way back to sun tzu's days- "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".... at least until the battle is over...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
07/31/04 02:12 PM
4.12.82.110
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Hi Lone_Wolf, The Sand People on Arrakis? Certainly they would be in a familiar enviroment but I think it would be a violent clash of cutures. The best spies. I don't think the Predators would make the best spies. Once they turn off the invisibility anyone who sees them knows they are in serious trouble. I see the Predators and the Jem Hadr as special forces soldiers or joining assassination squads. Their invisbility skills make them a good fit. A good spy needs to get close enough to a target to manipulate it.
Interesting Mixes. Hmmm. The Replicants and the Borg are not team players. One will absorb the other and no one else will attempt to allly with them. If the Empire can seduce the Clans to its side that is a strong reason for the Inner Sphere to ally itself with the Galactic Patrol. I don't know much about the Asgard but I don't see them as wanting anything to do with the Empire so there is another powerful race to ally itself with the Patrol and the Inner Sphere. The United Federation of Planets would commit Starfleet to the alliance with the Patrol. Hmmm Suppose that instead of the Successor States that make up the Inner Sphere that it is the Pre Kerensky Star Legue that joins this alliance? Your right about minor players and races that would prefer to play both sides against each other. Considering how many species and how many possible combinations of events have already been revealed in this thread I don't think that one galaxy is big enough.
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Greyslayer
08/01/04 10:01 PM
216.14.192.233
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Quote:
Perhaps I should have clarified myself, my post was mostly meant as a jest at Omega, but since you seem to have had a nerve hit, you kindof proved my point by going into "shut up you're stupid" mode without adding to the discussion...
Look at this thread in 'Threaded View', you will see no posts by Omega within this long subthread. The last few posts in this one before the one I am replying too either belonged to myself or yourself. As for saying 'shut up, you're stupid' I never even tried to say that. I would not try to insult those with the IQ level of 'stupid' with such a comment . What I simply said is: READ the post and POST relevant information to that said post, you could probably incorporate statements from earlier posts within the line of the sub-thread, but in general you would need to quote name at least or you should try to QUOTE the specific parts of the said posts you are replying too. Through this you are neither tackling the man or ball, but confusing the issue.
Quote:
I did take a shot at Omega yes, but it was in jest, and furthermore, if you disagree with what I'm saying that's fine, that's why I started this thread, but be more educated about it... I even tried to find chinks in the Imperial armor at the start of this thread and continue to look for them... I'd rather this post not de-volve into a ST VS SW flamewar,
You say 'educated', yet you refuse to learn that I have not argued at all the ST vs SW. I informed people of several things here. That some series would create a 'unbalanced' scenario such the 'Skylark' series of novels by EE Doc Smith, that Star Gate have a nasty enemywho have potential to take on pretty much any metal using empire (a purely organic one such as the main enemy of humans in the Full Thrust gaming system would probably not suffer the same fate, at least I think their ships are almost totally organic) and that nearly all these series except only a few have diety-types running around in them. The thread would not devolve into a ST vs Sw flamewar if you stopped making it one. This comes right back to playing the ball, read what I say and post specifically to what I have said. It really isn't that hard. I've made it simple to follow by breaking the threads up and trying to stick to the issues at hand.
Quote:
like I said that's already been done and my goal is not to insult anyone, but rather get a new view on a Grand Scale VS conflict... That means licenses OTHER than SW VS ST...
That has been my goal. I even mentioned Asimov's Foundation series. The problem is if it has truly been yours, consciously or subconsciously you keep turning this into a ST vs SW argument.
As for not trying to insult someone I think at one stage you labelled me or omega (hard to tell considering your dyslexic posting methods) a 'trekkie' and a 'whipping boy federation type' in the one post. No emotes to define that you were joking or otherwise. Just this vain belief in a site called Stardestroyer.net that borders on unhealthy.
PS the earlier statement 'playing neither the man or ball' is generally used in rugby union, rugby league and other team orientated ballsports that use tackling as part of it. Generally it is used in the 'playing the man but not the ball', the ball is the important component not the man/woman carrying it at the time. You fail to address the discussion in the posts thus failing to play the ball.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 01:08 PM
129.33.119.12
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Well, there you have it... At least this time you added to the discussion, and for that I give you credit... Omega did in fact post and I was in fact attempting to reply to him, take that as you please... and I never called anyone a trekkie, or a whipping boy federation type, read the post more carefully and realize that it was a generalized statement directed at fanboy trekkie types as a whole and not one individual.... if you read this post from the start, you'll see that I have played both sides of this issue, even going to the point of warning someone off taking what they see on Stardestoyer.net as canon, if that qualifies as unhealthy, then so be it... Note: I didn't take any of the info I used in this discussion from that site, if you'll look closely, you'll see it was Spartan who did that. But since we've cooled the flames, what then do you think is the next step? I'm nothing if not curious. Since you wish to deny my capability to provide a fair arguement, then the ball is in your court, provide a new faction, a new scenario, anything... Advance the arguement, don't mire yourself in trying to prove you can take the higher road, because online it really doesn't matter does it? We're not arguing Politics or anything, lighten up... I took a shot at cmryan, and he seemed to accept that it was in jest, and continued positive contributions... as for emotes, I don't see the point. The message should carry itself and when it doesn't, I clarify. But as for Mixes, I think a nice one would be the Protoss from Starcraft with the Predators, who look like Zealots anyways... the addition of cloaking and ranged weapons would make the Protoss into feared ground warriors. Another nice one would be Wookiees and Klingons, or Stormtrooper/Darktrooper Lensmen. Best Spies? I still stand by my statement that Predator, Tal'Shiar, and Imperial Intelligence are the best... For Travel, few can match Dune's Guild or Robotek's Fold engines... But that's just a start...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
08/02/04 01:31 PM
67.64.145.68
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I'd just like to point out here that I take my points from stardestoyer.net because his arguments are well thought out and consistent. But also because it's a convenient place to get numbers for comparison since I don't have access to the books. I *do not* go there because I think his arguments are canon, even though he uses canon sources. The numbers he provides and that I have cited are in his own words, back of the envelope calculations used to indicate orders of magnitude and therefore demonstrate the power and subsequent damage involved.
On a related note, I'd like to state for the record that I don't think that the SW universe is the end-all-be-all of the sci-fi crossover realm and have acknowledged that other techs could, at the very least, give SW a run for their money.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Greyslayer
08/02/04 05:16 PM
216.14.192.234
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Quote:
Well, there you have it... At least this time you added to the discussion, and for that I give you credit... Omega did in fact post and I was in fact attempting to reply to him, take that as you please... and I never called anyone a trekkie, or a whipping boy federation type, read the post more carefully and realize that it was a generalized statement directed at fanboy trekkie types as a whole and not one individual....
I'd hate to see you argue for your life.
Quote:
Incorrect... Fleets were never destroyed, and if you read those rubbish "new republic books" you'll see that the Empire is virtually left alone with 8 sectors of controlled space while aliens invade... I always find it so funny when trekkies try to defend themselves...
You will notice the expansive usage of you in the above quote. This is a directive to an individual, then in the same paragraph you say you did not target the person the earlier part of the paragraph was aimed at? How on earth would a person be able to tell this?
Quote:
You know, facts aside, we'll probably never convince Omega of his folly for the same reason you can't convince any trek Fanboy of their folly: The inability to accept the truth when shown, because it would simply shatter their little world. Trek fans are the worst at this by far, and I'm not just saying that because I'm a star Wars fan, it's been proven time and time again, in the face of scientific fact or overwhelming dissent, they all simply revert into "shut up, you're stupid!" mode and bug out...
Part 1: To be continued.... (always wanted to do that in a post ).
Quote:
Perhaps I should have clarified myself, my post was mostly meant as a jest at Omega, but since you seem to have had a nerve hit, you kindof proved my point by going into "shut up you're stupid" mode without adding to the discussion...
Again you lined yourself up for a personal attack then claim none to have happened, direct correlation of posts and times indicate this DID occur.
Quote:
if you read this post from the start,
Thread or post? Post is singular it can include a thread IF the thread totals ONE post.
Quote:
you'll see that I have played both sides of this issue, even going to the point of warning someone off taking what they see on Stardestoyer.net as canon, if that qualifies as unhealthy, then so be it... Note: I didn't take any of the info I used in this discussion from that site, if you'll look closely, you'll see it was Spartan who did that.
Spartan to his credit played the ball. He never accused me of starting SW vs ST flamewars as I didn't even bother with it. He never, despite the fact I said I was not interested and the fact I didn't discuss SW vs ST kept reinterating that I should visit said site.
Quote:
But since we've cooled the flames, what then do you think is the next step? I'm nothing if not curious. Since you wish to deny my capability to provide a fair arguement, then the ball is in your court, provide a new faction, a new scenario, anything...
You mean a new faction apart from the others I already introduced? Asgard, replicators, Goa'uld, Asimov's Federation, Smith's Skylark, need I go on?
Quote:
as for emotes, I don't see the point.
Ignorance is bliss apparently. It helps to show intent.
Quote:
The message should carry itself and when it doesn't, I clarify.
Lol, gee going on your current ability to clarify I REALLY think you should be using emoticons .
Quote:
But as for Mixes, I think a nice one would be the Protoss from Starcraft with the Predators, who look like Zealots anyways... the addition of cloaking and ranged weapons would make the Protoss into feared ground warriors. Another nice one would be Wookiees and Klingons, or Stormtrooper/Darktrooper Lensmen. Best Spies? I still stand by my statement that Predator, Tal'Shiar, and Imperial Intelligence are the best... For Travel, few can match Dune's Guild or Robotek's Fold engines... But that's just a start...
This 'mixing' would depend on proximity, resources (as most conflict may occur over scarce resources, replicators need neutronium to make the advanced human replicators and Asgard use it as a cornerstone of their technology. Replicators can use any metal to make more replicators it is just the human-looking ones that need the metal). Many games like Master of Orion have 'first encounter' situations as so on, some 'licences' like Star Trek have a fairly detailed universe on the intrigues and specific technologies known. Others fail to have anywhere near the information to create an accurate description for and thus comparison too. For example when I said the Asgard use transporters you automatically assumed that like Star Trek ships they require a ship's shield to be down. I don't have the information as to whether that is in fact true. Ha'tark vessels are shielded and I know on a couple of situations transporting worked or in one situation where an entire Ha'tark and retinue was (retinue was already all inside the Star Gate Command Base) were transported away from earth. This was a mirror dimension episode, but you get the picture. If for example Star Trek ships were to acquire this tech from the fairly peaceful Asgard this could make conflict with Imperials quite interesting.
Spies, technology, strength of numbers, alliances, it all means nothing when the ewoks rule the universe
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 08:11 PM
129.33.119.12
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Ignoring barbs as to my intent and means of carrying myself, I will have to research more on Asgard tech before quoting too much... Suffice to say that I still believe a transporter would have a min and max effective range, and using physics to compute operation, would at least initially assume that an energy tool/weapon could be blunted by the proper frequency and amplitude energy screen (or shield)... and Imperial weaponry to my knowledge outdistances any transporter system... But Like I said, more research is needed. Since you are the only one who seems hell-bent on proving me wrong or at the very least arguing semantics or intention, I'll not answer any more such attempts. It's obvious neither of us will change the other's perception, but I do find it amusing that you were so quick to leave the topic at hand to attempt and find what is at best questionable chinks in my argument. So what if I'm not an award winning speaker? Let's just do the rest of the site a favor and leave our pet peeves out of the larger topic, shall we? Reading through it from end to end we were doing a fine job until you got rubbed the wrong way and to that I say sorry and simultaneously tough, seeing as how I did start the thread to begin with... Sorry also because it was never my intent to attack (except in jest) and if you find my emote-less form of speaking and dry wit against your liking, I can only offer you apologies for misconception, not apologies for the way I am. Ignorance may be bliss, yes, but don't confuse silence (or lack of emoticons) for lack of ability or intelligence. I do appreciate your input on the Asgard and the others, but those weren't necessisarily Introduced... Those were pretty big named in license, easily found and researched... the Lensmen were more in line with what I was talking about, going on my "minor players" trend in order to gain new info and partly to stave off what is quickly devolving into a licensing skirmish... Leave your misconceptions and obviously loaded jabs at the door in future replies, and I'll at least guarantee the same... Agree to disagree, I believe?
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 08:15 PM
129.33.119.12
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A run for the money, yes, and that was the intent, clouded though it has become... It was also to see and learn about other licenses with an emphasis on minor players, to encourage discourse in a way that (I had hoped) would remain lighthearted... I don't know about you all, but the real world is stressful enough, I turn to SW and BT and all the rest to ESCAPE such stresses, which is why I try to avoid such petty bickering among online kindreds... I didn't start the thread expecting a "let's jump on the Empire" bandwagon, though you must admit the numbers tend to favor them in just about every scenario... Your thoughts on Mixes, Crossovers, Spies? I'm hoping the little fracas that has dominated the last few posts hasn't scared anyone else off...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 08:18 PM
129.33.119.12
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Actually, I'd have to disagree on the Clash of culture... Language barrier aside, the Sand People and Fremen live virtually the same way, nomadic hunters, constantly following the water... I think once the Languages were mastered, they'd eventually come together if for no other reason than necessity, because Arrakis isn't exactly a hospitable environment, and the Sand People would need to learn from someone or something how to deal with Sandworms... Krayt dragons at least you can see coming!
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 08:28 PM
129.33.119.12
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BTW, that reminds me: Does anyone have specific numbers relating to the forces of Robotek, the Predators, or any of the others mentioned in passing but not as yet expounded on? The Galactic Patrol, for example... What about leaders or heroic characters? Villains? Who do you all think would earn the honors in those catagories? Leaders- Hanse Davion, the Founders, Princess Leia... Heroes- I'd have to go with Chewie, Lando, Wedge... Just to move past the "Luke and han save all" motif, Comstar, Vlad Ward, Geordi Laforge (I can't help it, I feel a kindred with fellow engineers)... Villians- Obviously, The Emperor and Vader, but what about Tarkin or Veers? Anybody from house Liao or Kurita(not based on facts, just on my personal belief and playing against people who like to use them), the Romulan Empire, and the Zerg... I neglected to mention any other factions (i.e. Stargate, Babylon 5, Farscape) due to the fact that I don't think I know quite enough about any of them to pick overall heroes... but if anyone does I'm open to suggestions... Even you, Greyslayer... No hard feelings, eh?
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Greyslayer
08/02/04 08:38 PM
216.14.192.233
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Intellect and claiming to be the owner of are two separate things, until such a realisation comes about on your part it seems pointless to argue any further.
Now that you claim 'ownership' of this thread I will now remove myself from further 'discussion' on any topics within this thread, afterall I wouldn't want to annoy the 'god' of the thread 
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 08:40 PM
129.33.119.12
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Ewoks? Now you're scaring me... all the licenses sould rise up and take the annoying teddy-bears with spears out! In reference to post# 95539, it does appear that my barbs were intended at you, and I can see your confusion... I fused what in essence was supposed to be two replies, one to you and one to Omega, who did post about ST and Q beating everybody in much the same way the Archangel did (BTW, Nightward, would appreciate more info on this series...) So I guess the fault in the conflict does indeed lie with me... There I said it... Can we continue normally now???
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/02/04 08:42 PM
129.33.119.12
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I never claimed to be "god" of anything, that would be blasphemy... it's just so hard to make peace with some people.... For the record I didn't BAR you from anything, in fact I actually enjoy the break from reality and the discourse, no matter how pointed it may be... if you choose to withdraw it is your right but I'm not asking it...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
08/03/04 09:28 AM
4.12.82.110
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If a few Sand People found themselves on Arrakis then the Fremen could play the part of gracious host. If the number of Sand People is roughly equal to the number of Fremen, then there will be extreme trouble precisely because food and water are extremely scarce on Arrakis. Of course The Spice Guild might be willing to support the Sand People in exchange for service fighting the Sand People.
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cmryan
08/03/04 09:35 AM
4.12.82.110
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On the subject of Hero's and villian's in the Lensman Universe. Virgil Samms was the first Lensman. Kimball Kinnison, Nadreck of PalainVII, Worsel of Velantia, Tregonsee of Rigel. these are the Second Stage Lensman. The Children of the Kimball Kinnison and his wife Clarissa Macdougall. They became the Third Stage Lensmen and the successors to the Arisians.
On the Subject of villilans the Empire of Boskone was the main enemy of the Galactic Patrol. The Eddorians were the losers in a power struggle in their own dimension. They escaped, made their way to the Lensman Universe. The Arisians raised up the Galactic Patrol to be the weapon that could and would destroy the Eddorians.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/03/04 09:40 AM
65.1.42.9
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The guild, and probably also the Teliaxu and or the IX... I think if enough resources exist however, that fate and battle would inevitably draw the Tuskens and the Fremen together, whether or not they actually liked one another... and how then would the Fremen exist on Tatooine? I think they would worship the Moisture vaporators...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/03/04 09:41 AM
65.1.42.9
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Nicely done... Appreciate the info... I believe there was a Samms in the anime I saw, but don't quote me on that...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/03/04 09:44 AM
65.1.42.9
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Pulling out after arguing semantics it akin to leaving a pickup game because you realize the ball isn't yours, or because your team isn't playing by your rules... It's akin to abandoning your battle buddy because he entered a building first then let you know it... I hold you in higher esteem than that, and your animosity aside, you must grudgingly at least offer the same or you wouldn't have stayed in this long... If you have something to contribute, by all means do so... Consider this another olive branch, one offered in the spirit of open communication...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/03/04 09:46 AM
65.1.42.9
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BTW, which weapons or planets would have the most positive and Negative impacts on other galaxies (or their own)... Which authors would draw up good stories? Which licenses (other than ones already created) would make good games? And finally, just for fun, which universe boasts the Ugliest and most incompetent people???
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
08/03/04 10:15 AM
4.12.82.110
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Hello Lone_Wolf,
On the subject of Mixes. I believe the Galactic Patrol would find common ground with the United Federation of Planets and the Star League. The Federation would sell computer technology and warp drive to the Star League and to the Galactic Patrol. Also one item that I havent mentioned earlier. The Galactic Patrol and the Empire of Boskone fought an intergalactic war. The Patrol won. So the Galactic Patrol is raising up democracy in two galaxies. The Asgard are also capable of intergalactic travel so it the Borg Collective and the Replicants fuse into an even bigger threat it is likely that the Asgard will join the Patrol, Federation, Star League alliance.Since the Lensman books were published between the 1930s and the 1960s the transistor was high tech. Star Trek computers as seen in TNG, DS9 and Voyager would be an amazing improvement. I think Star Trek computers are as good as or perhaps better than the Star League vintage computers and certainly better than the lostech computers that are common in BattleTech.
On a slight change in subject. I think the Jem Had'r are a mistake on the part of the Dominion. Their effectiveness is limited by their dependance on having adequate supplies of Quetrecel White(spelling). So they are on a very short leash. The idea that they don't need to eat or sleep is incomprehensible. How does anyone or anything grow without food and water? Their life expectancy is only 30 years. Even though they can grow to adult size in the course of a one hour episode of DS9 (without food or water) 30 years is a very brief life. Also what about education? Even if it is possible to program an education into the growth process. What about information that wasn't included in that education. Do the Jem Had'r have any capacity to learn new things? If not they are in serious trouble and so is the Dominion. The Jem Had'r are a weak link. Maybe the Dominion should consider replacing the Jem Had'r withe the Predators.
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Spartan
08/03/04 11:49 AM
65.68.200.170
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I try to stay away from mixes. It's complex enough just having 2 different universes come together without adding in possible alliances or multi-front conflicts.
And at any rate I don't think alliances are that easy to predict. Look at what happened when the Dominion invaded. 2 Alpha quad species joined up with them IIRC, at least one signed a non-agression treaty and only 2 actually declared war and of those one was responding to attack(which was in turn a response to a percieved invasion, specifically colonies) and the other was simply honoring a treaty.
BTW, I did not follow ST:DS9 as closely as it may seem so if my details are off let me know.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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cmryan
08/03/04 02:35 PM
68.136.26.12
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Hello Lone_Wolf,
A ringworld from the Known Space books by Larry Niven would add three million earths worth of living space to any star system that has one. That would be a tremendous help in providing living room for the immense populations fornd in the StarWars and Galactic Patrol universes. It could also become a valuable target in a war.
The HyperSpatial Tube, Bergenholm and the Sun Beam all of which come out of the Galactic Patrol would be a tremendous benefit to the Civilization of the Lens.
A Bergenholm can be scaled up from units suitable for one person all the way up to units suitable for freeing a planet from its own orbit.
The Sun Beam is a powerful defensive weapon. The output of a main sequence star is around four million tons of mass converted to energy each second. Aim that against an invader and his odds of survival are somewhere between slim and none. Unless the invader can keep an inhabited planet between himself and the Sun Beam. Just imagine if you had a construction project that needed the full energy output of a main sequence star. You can convert the SunBeam into a power supply. Building a ringworld would probably be a project that needs that kind of power.
The HyperSpatial Tube. Its not a weapon but still it will have a tremendous effect if used for war or peace. The Tube can span distances from planetary to inter-galactic. HyperSpatial Tubes can be made for single person speedsters or scaled up to a diameter suitable for moving planets or entire space fleets.
As for your last question. The real world has the ugliest and most incompetant people in it. Otherwise why would we want to spend time and money on fictional universes.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/04/04 09:08 AM
65.1.42.9
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True enough, but it seems to me that the underlying mistrust in ST should have been overridden by fear of a common foe, no? It's like a house full of siblings: they fight amongst each other until a bully starts to pick on one of them, then they come together to resolve the threat, then back to fighting again... Ignore the technicals and political ramifications, the mixes thread was just for fun, to see what everyone's thoughts are... We can't accurately predict them anyways, because all the different writers would have a cow at the thought of their creation unifying with someone else's...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/04/04 09:14 AM
65.1.42.9
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Okay, sound point... Assume then that the Patrol, Asgard, Federation, and Star League did forge a tenuous alliance... Who would lead it, and who would put aside their inhibitions and join the Empire (who would no doubt be the largest faction to oppose this new alliance?)... Besides the clan, who we kinda agreed would be absorbed into the Imperial fold through a combination of Trials and promises of glory... I think that at least one of the Federation's nemesis species (Romulan, Klingon, Cardassian, Breen) would at least provide info and intel to the Empire, and the Robotek Masters, the Empire of Boskore from the Lensman galaxy (if any survive) and the Spice Guild or House Harkonnen from Dune would join up just for spite. That leaves a few minor players who would probably try to stay under the radar or contract themselves out to both sides (Ferengi, Predator, Jem Hadar, Babylon 5's Earth Dome)... and not a few races who would consider themselves above such nonsense (the Vorlon, the Vulcan, the Atreides)...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/04/04 09:20 AM
65.1.42.9
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Nicely done yet again... But the real world doesn't exist here, or I'm at least looking for best runners up... LOL... Yeah, ST and SW computers are far beyond transistors, what with Star Treks Quadritronic processors and SW having the ability to program emotion and spontaneous communication into their computers and droids... I think the Rebellion would sell those techs, but the Empire would naturally consider that a security breach. And if The Federation wouldn't sell, the Ferengi certainly would, and they have access to Federation tech... As for the Jem Hadar, I agree on the weak link... Even if a source of this Ketrocel White (spelling?) was found and controlled by the Dominion, it would be a constantly targeted world once the others found out about it's importance. I don't believe that the Jem Hadar are capable of learning much new things, they were in essence programmed that way to remain controllable and loyal, much like Stormtroopers, but without a free will. A switch to the cloak capable Predators or the Ravenous Zerg, if they could control the Overmind, would definitely be something for the Founders to ponder, but it would of course polarize the Terrans and Protoss into joining other factions, as well as root out the Aliens, who aren't quite civilized enough to care about alliances...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Spartan
08/04/04 09:20 AM
66.139.217.91
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I agree that we can't accurately predict them and that it's all just for fun. But I stand by my assertion that they don't join together when faced with a common foe. They specifically did not when the Dominion invaded.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/04/04 09:25 AM
65.1.42.9
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I know that they didn't, and that in and of itself was disappointing, but I'm hoping some of the other factions have more common sense... That war could have made DS9 more exciting to watch but they nerfed it and did it all wrong... Less battling and more sneaking around and familiar intrigue... I guess it all hit the skids once papa Gene Died... I'm hoping that Mr. Lucas lives to a ripe old age if that's the case, or who knows what kind of crap will bear the SW name? Altough nobody really died, the same kinda happened to poor old Battletech... Amend- I guess FASA died... at least to BT fans...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
08/04/04 10:51 AM
4.12.82.110
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Helo Spartan, I didnt follow DS9 closely either but I think you got it right.
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cmryan
08/04/04 11:17 AM
4.12.82.110
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Hello Lone_Wolf, The obvious threat posed by the Empire or the Borg Replicant collective give the alliance strong incentive to stay close to each other. In the early stages of the alliance I believe leadership would rotate between the members nations.
One interesting speculation is can the Federation preserve an independant StarFleet. The Federation and StarFleet are the smallest member of the Alliance. If the Galactic Patrol is allowed to recruit Federation citizians to join the Patrol and if Federation humans have the ability to become Lensman. I think that eventually the Federation and Star Fleet will be merged into the Civilization of the Lens.
The Star League might also face this possibility but the Star League is a lot bigger than the Federation in terms of population and planets so the assimilation would take much longer.
The Galactic Patrol patrols two galaxies. The Asgard can travel between galaxies. The Empire is a galaxy spanning power. Poor Star Fleet.
I think your correct about the Star Trek nemesis species. The Klingons, Romulans Cardissians Breen, would try to defend themselves and establish a niche. They might even formulate their own min-alliance in defence against the Founders of the Dominion. The Jem Had'r if I am remembering correctly are all clones not a regular species with families and history. The Empire of Boskone was destroyed by the Galactic Patrol by the end of the Lensman books. If I remember my B5 continuity correctly the Vorlon and the Shadows both abandoned their holdings and left for parts unknown. That abandoned space could become a flash point in a war. The Vulcans are founding members of the Federation. I expect them to stick with the Federation.
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cmryan
08/04/04 02:39 PM
68.136.26.206
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I think your correct about the Star Trek nemesis species. The Klingons, Romulans Cardissians Breen, would try to defend themselves and establish a niche. They might even formulate their own min-alliance in defence against the Founders of the Dominion. The Jem Had'r if I am remembering correctly are all clones not a regular species with families and history. The Empire of Boskone was destroyed by the Galactic Patrol by the end of the Lensman books. If I remember my B5 continuity correctly the Vorlon and the Shadows both abandoned their holdings and left for parts unknown. That abandoned space could become a flash point in a war. The Vulcans are founding members of the Federation. I expect them to stick with the Federation.
I think that the Ferengi would be pulled into the Star Trek Nemesis Alliance. The Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and the Breen could simply threaten to start doing business with Ferengi females offering sanctuary as part of any business deal and the Ferengi would find themselves with a choice of joining the Nemesis Alliance or waging war against Mom. Quite a choice.
The Nemesis Alliance is in quite a bind. The Cardassians have seen their empire used as a major battleground in the Dominion War. The Klingons are not much better off after the Duras Civil War the war against the Federation the war against the Dominion and the internal strife caused by cloning Kahless. The Romulans have apparently lost control of the Dilithium mines on Remus the Remans are in full rebellion. Isn't it interesting that slave labor was able to design and build the Scimitar prototype? I suspect the Dominion was helping the Remans. Lets not forget that the Romulan Senate was murdered. So control of the Romulan Empire has passed to brand new and therefore inexperienced leadership. I don't know anything about the Breen but they can't be to popular after siding with the Dominion. If the leadership of this alliance can do much. But here are some suggestions.
The Romulans should quickly blame the Scimitar incident on Dominion shapeshifters. The Scimitar class of ship offers an opportunity to revive the Klingon Romulan trade agreements that were mentioned in Star Trek TOS. Also the new Romulan Senate should scour its archives for evidence that its predecessors were involved in anti-Klingon activity and publicy declare that those days are over. The Klingons after all the heavy fighting they have been through are weaker than they might care to admit. Shifting blame to the Dominion and declaring their own honor satisfied by the death of the previous Romulan Senate allows the Klingons to share in the new capabilities provided by the Scimitar class of ship. Remember the advantages of the economies of scale. Hopefully the Cardassians can make a similar offer and the Scimitar will become the stand battlecruiser of the Nemesis Alliance. Recruiting the Ferengi as full members of the Nemesis Alliance is actually quite easy and requires no military commitment.
The members of the Alliance simply inform the Grand Nagus that they will enter into business agreements with Ferengi females and offer them and their families sanctuary if they request it. This puts the Grand Nagus in quite a spot.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/05/04 07:55 PM
129.33.119.12
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The Vorlons and Shadows could find themselves being caught in the midst of this... Why not, whatever brought the others together certainly would not want anyone feeling "left out"... The Jem Hadar were genetically created If I remember correctly, but were as limited in their usefulness outside of battle as they were useful in battle. As far as a Niche, I think the Romulans, being descended of the Vulcans, would have the common sense (or dare I say Logic?) to evaluate all sides, and being ever the manipulators and opportunists, would play them all off one another in an attempt to position themselves for Alliance or Conquest with whoever they deem the strongest. The Breen, while little shown in the TV series, are much mentioned, and from what I understand, will side with ANYONE willing to topple the Federation. The Vulcans, pasifists all and logically inclined, would probably balk at the Federation being absorbed or even dismantled, and spend the majority of their time studying the new species and galaxy they found themselves in. The minor players, probably in the hundreds, would for common sense's sake join the Empire or this "Alliance" you've mentioned, for their very survival... That would leave only the species too proud or too unable to comprehend the polarizing effect of political alliance, such as the Zerg, the Aliens, the 'Nids, the Minions (obscure reference- Minions are an artificial race not unlike the replicators first seen in the computer game "ascendancy")... These races, along with rogues or malcontents from the Empire and the Federation (the Maquis, Rogue warlord fleets), would form an interesting wild card element... I believe the bounty hunters would have more contracts than they could shake a stick at, and the assorted intelligence agencies (Tal Shiar, Obsidian order, Imperial intelligence) would be bogged down with new technologies and first contacts, some bogged down to the point of ineffectiveness. It would boil down to where each faction starts relative to one another and who shows the ability to mobilize and move the most equipment... Here again, the Empire shines, as does the Asgard, and to a lesser extent, the Envyyid... Leadership would probably change hands often for the smaller players whenever a loss is incurred, Earth Dome and Starfleet command would institute martial law, and a new Emperor would ascend the Klingon throne... The ability to survive chaos and upheaval may well prove just as effective as stifling numbers and technology...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
08/06/04 09:31 AM
4.12.82.110
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You make a good point about the Vorlon and Shadows. Heck they could decide to move after the wormholes open up. Who knows whre they would decide to go? Maybe some piece of interstellar real estate desired by someone else. I think we are in agreement that the Jem Hadr are a weak link in the Dominion power structure. Hmmm. The shapeshifiting abilities of the Founders have been exposed. The Jem Hadr are one trick ponies and drug addicts to boot. The Vorta are also clones. The Dominion looks to be vulnerable to upheaval. The Founders really need to integrate the Predators quickley.
The Romulans would recognize the potential of the Nemesis Alliance with themselves in control, of course. As for the Vulcans balking at the absorption or dismantling of the Federation. The choice is not entirely theirs to make. All member worlds get the vote.
The Star League will have some very big mental adjustments to make when they start meeting aliens and encounter beings using the Force and the telepathic Lensman of the Galactic Patrol. An interesting technology mix is possible between The Star League and the StarTrek universes. Imagine Battlemechs with deflector shields or maybe a small matter antimatter powerplant. The Aliens will need to be contained and will be. I can imagine the beings in the intelligence agencies of any government pulling their hair out as the first contacts start streaming in and their bosses start demanding answes now.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/06/04 10:54 AM
65.1.42.9
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Agreed, though I think containing the Aliens and Zerg would prove harder amidst a war... Another interesting BT mix would be with the Dune universe... could you imagine Guild Navigators with Assault mechs? What about the Face Dancer assassins, I think at the least house Liao would be interested in them. The Dominion would have to find a source of stability quick, or they need not worry about outside invasion... I believe they would crumble from the inside amidst all the turmoil... I think anyone who WOULD have allied with them would much rather capatalize on their apparent weakness, Federation included, citing their histories together... I think the Vorlons and Shadows would attempt to cow the other species at first as they did the species in Babylon 5, and failing that, would attack those they could beat and suck up to those they could not... The shadows, at least, showed themselves to be nothing if not predators of opportunity...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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SoyBigHead
08/06/04 03:21 PM
68.57.150.99
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i win.
"There are three types of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
-Mark Twain
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cmryan
08/06/04 07:22 PM
68.136.26.8
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I don't think to many people would worry about containing a bunch of Aliens. They would decide to isolate them long enough to call in heavy weapons. I really don't know anything about the Zerg. Unfortunately I can't imagine Guild Navigators in possession of assault mechs. I haven't read the Dune books in a looong time. Your right about the Dominion needing stability and quick or face internal collapse. The reputation of the Founders for being infallible is history. Everyone in the Star Trek universe recognizes that the Jem Had'r and the Vorta clones and the cloning facilities are a weak link. I can easily imagine that he Nemesis Alliance wanting to divert attention from its own weakness ordering raids on facilities making Ketrocel White and cloning facilities. If their sensor capabilites have improved as a result of the experience of the Dominion War they might be able to scan a planetary surface from transporter range identify any Founders on the surface and beam them up. They even need to be killed. Simply exposing the presence of a Founder will continue to turn everyone against the Founders and the Dominion. Also the Dominion shipyards manufacture ships designed for Jem Had'r. So not only must the Founders replace the Jem Had'r they have to completely redesign and replace their entire war fleet and military infrastrure. If the Founders , the Vorta and anyone else in the Dominion that knows whats going on has any brains they will throw themselves on the mercy of the Federation. The Federation will appeal to the Star League for a coalition of troops to discourage raiding and give the Dominion a change to change without shattering completely. Of course the Galactic Empire will see Battlemechs moving into Dominion space and being adopted by the StarTrek universe. They respond by contacting their new "allies" the Clans and asking them to deploy near Dominion Space "just in case". Also since the Vorlon and the Shadows are mobile and ruthless. Someone has to do something about them. Unless they do something first, like maybe choose a side.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/06/04 08:54 PM
129.33.119.12
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I think by this point the founders are too proud or too shamed to throw themselves upon federation mercy, so they may even be driven to the waiting jaws of the Empire, or one of the Rogue states, in a last ditch effort to stabilize and still prove themselves superior to the Federation... Navigators in an assault mech would have the abilities to fold (or teleport if you prefer) as well as conduct and discharge electrical current in enough quantities to harm battle vehicles... Could you imagine shooting at a daishi only to watch it vanish in front of you, appear behind you, short you out with lightning and commence to stomping you? ugh... And Surely with the inclusion of the Clans, a hybrid Elemental-Stormtrooper would start showing up, boasting the tech of the Stormtrooper with the Genetics of the Elemental. Imagine a point of Elementals with Lightsabers implanted where the machine gun used to be, slicing a heavy lance?... ouch...The Tech mixes from this "alliance" alone could fill another full threaded post... The Zerg I pulled from the Starcraft Video game, are for all intents and purposes a Biological version of the Replicators, or if you need another similar example, the Tielaxu Leeches and Contaminators... They would be a wild card for sure, too hive minded to ever be reasoned with. By this point any minor players that haven't found an ally or a great place to hide should be considered out of contention for ease of management of the rest of this discussion, unless you just happen to find out some obscure fact about them and have to add it in...
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
08/07/04 02:21 PM
4.12.82.110
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I think that the Founders are smart enough to stay away from the Galactic Empire.
A Navigator can teleport something the size of an assault and generate large scale electrical attacks. OUCH! If Spice is what makes that kind of power possible than the Navigators are going to be very busy definding the source of Spice. I can imagine a point of Elementals with lightsabers. Just when you thought Elementals couldn't get anymore dangerous. Have you considered the mixing of Star Trek tech with BattleTech. Imagine adding tractor beams to Mechs. If the Elementals are swarming over a mech in your lance you simply fire up you tractor beam and flick the pest away. No friendly fire damage from using lasers or autocannon to dislodge the Elemental. I remember an episode of DS9 where a murderer was using a sniper rifle that had a mini transporter mated to it. Pull the trigger the bullet reaches the transporter the bullet is transported past the intervening bulkheads and materializes in the room of the victim with its momentum intact. Scale that up for use with Gauss Rifles and autocannon and watchout. The transporter might also replace the LRM launcher and stand off weapons like aritillery and the Arrow IV missle system. No missle trajectory to backtrack.
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Spartan
08/08/04 03:52 PM
67.64.106.25
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There's a problem with using a transporter on (most) combat weapons though. You can't beam anything through shields. You can't beam anything when there's any sort of radiation or exotic mineral around. Etc.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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cmryan
08/09/04 01:58 PM
68.136.26.146
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Hello Spartan, I agree with you about the inabilty of a transporter to beam anything through a shield. However not all targets are permanently shielded. Also simply think about using the transporter to extend the range of a weapon or to bypass armor and go damage internal components. Have a sniper with a mini-transporter equipped sniper rifle start taking shots at the gyro of a mech or shoot at the pilot without breaking the cockpit canopy. The limitations imposed by backround radiation and exotic minerals maybe the factor that really limits deployment of transporter equipped weapons.
One other thought that occurs to me. What would be the probable effect of Star Trek replicator technology in BattleTech. The big problem would be legal. If you are using a replicator to manufacture a replacement piece of armor and the armor is a product protected by patent and copyright law. You are either legally limited to using armor that is not legally protected.
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Spartan
08/09/04 07:20 PM
67.64.117.179
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But you can't beam through armor. Remember, heavy metals block transporters.
And the replicators are limited to what they can make, I'm pretty sure they are unable to make sheets of armor.
Spartan
We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty.
(I refer you to what Nightward said)
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Gnome76
08/10/04 05:26 AM
68.12.242.212
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I thought you were talking about the Replicators from Stargate SG-1 for a second there.
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cmryan
08/10/04 02:35 PM
68.136.26.20
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Hello Spartan, Going by what I remember of Star Trek TOS, TNG, DS9, and VOY I don't remember seeing or hearing about transporter emitters. So a transporter works with whatever structural materials are used in starship and starbase construction. Plus there are numerous scenes of people beaming in and out of caves, buildings and starships in various stages of distress and self destruction. The problems that transporters have with backround radiation appear to stem from specific elements. If work remains as slow as it has been for the past few days I may spend some time browsing Star Trek sites to see if there is any better information on the strengths and weakness of transporters.
I will also look up replicators. IIRC there was an episode were a Commander Eddington hijacked a shipment of 12 industrial replicators for the Maquis. I get the impression that industrial replicators can and do produce large items.
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/29/04 08:13 PM
129.33.119.12
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Sorry, real life caused me to abandon this thread for a while, but... Very interesting ideas indeed, Cmryan... though I don't think the Transporter is as versatile or accurate as to be mounted on mechs or even on bullets... There are just too many variables and materials out there to interrupt them, I'm sure like the Inferno round or the Ion Cannon, it'll find it's interesting niche, but overall it won't replace any weapons system... Now gauss rifles on the other hand, with Star Wars or Star trek sensor systems for tracking and power cores, could become killers from extreme ranges... Overall I'm going to remain with my initial finding that the Galactic Empire would win, but it would certainly be more interesting now than in the first run through....
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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cmryan
08/30/04 11:47 AM
68.136.26.122
|
Real Life. Whats that??? Welcome back Lone Wolf. Transporters are mounted on StarFleet shuttlecraft which I think are comparable in size and weight to a Mech. The transporter would not be mounted on the individual round of ammo. It would be mounted on the weapon firing the round of ammo. I agree that importing StarWars or StarTrek sensors and power supplies would really seriously power up Mechs. I also consider that the Galactic Empire is a prohibitive favorite to win any war with any other faction or even alliance of other powers.
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Brandx0
08/30/04 05:31 PM
24.207.34.161
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I don't have the time to write it all out at the moment, maybe later I'll write up the reasons why, but you people should do some research on Warhammer 40,000... Without a doubt we have a winner there, the Imperium of Man makes the Galactic Empire look like a school yard bully
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/30/04 07:02 PM
129.33.119.12
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I have to disagree with you there, I'm not up on current WH40k lore, but last I saw they lack in numbers and ability to deploy regiments of equipment across galaxies in a matter of days, like the Empire can... I agree like all the other Factions they would certainly make a run of it and create a more interesting scenario, but all in all (judging by the way each faction was written) the Empire has an advantage in brute numbers, tech, and speed...
-Wolf
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
08/30/04 07:05 PM
129.33.119.12
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True, and Thanks, cmryan... Plus, the addition of tech from any species/faction that the Empire absorbed would only make them even more dangerous... While the others continue fighting each other and themselves for survival, the larger factions only grow and conquer, like fire ants across a yard... WH40K was mentioned, and Humanity there didn't fare as well as the 'Nids or even the Orks, but it was agreed that even the Hive-like 'nids could be stopped by sub-Imperial weaponry.
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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flipper1028
09/22/04 10:22 AM
165.139.123.60
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Hi all,
Just going through the forums while at work. I find this to be very interesting thread.
I only have one thing to add.
The Ancheints from Star Gate were not gods. They were an advanced civilization who created the Star Gate and many other wonders of technoligy. They learned to evolve to a higher power after milinea. (spelling) They were also the creators of the city of Atlantis. They would make your conversation interesting.
I will not mention Star Gate : Atlantis for it is new and we dont know enough about the evil villian there "The Wraith"
Thanks for the insightful look into other universes.
Jim (flipper)
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flipper1028
09/22/04 10:38 AM
165.139.123.60
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One more thought...
IMHO I think no matter what factions you make or who is allied with who.. I think that the empire would win out in the long run for one main reason...
Their pure evilness.. I mean they would have no problem destroying a whole world to achieve their goals of complete domination.
Dont get me wrong I am one of the lame.. "good guys win" people. but in all honestly the good guys would not go to extremes and that would cause them to stretch their forces to every hot spot in the galaxies. RL example is USA they would not cause mass causilties to achieve a small objective instead try to go with a small infiltration and take out one individual. Where as the Empire would simply destroy the whole world if it is suspected of being a hide out for rebels. In their approach they would simply show up destroy world move oon to the next.
Hope I explained it right for you to understand my point of view
Thanks Jim (flipper)
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Wraith
09/22/04 01:26 PM
129.101.55.124
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I think that humans would win. Has anyone read "Tomorrow and Tomorrow" by Charles Sheffield? One of my favorite books. Humans invent a caesura, which takes anything put into it and, almost invariably, casts it out of our universe/dimension altogether. Statistically, it is possible for whatever is sent through it to just go to some random point/time in our own universe. But I'd like to see the Borg compete with essentially an indestructible space-time anomaly that can be placed anywhere, and will effectively destroy anything (including stars).
-Wraith
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Brandx0
09/22/04 11:54 PM
24.207.43.89
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While I'm not saying that the Empire are nice guys. If you want a scale of truly evil, I'm afraid the empire is simply not anywhere close to evil incarnate, perhaps you should read on some more gothic fiction (I'm going to bring up Warhammer 40,000 again here)
Whether any forces from Warhammer win in a battle sense is irrelivant, on an evil scale its tough to get more malevolant than the Forces of Chaos, Dark Eldar, C'Tan, Necrons or Tyranids.
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flipper1028
09/23/04 08:52 AM
165.139.123.60
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Sorry wasnt trying to state who was more evil, just pointing out that the evil side would have a distinct advantage due to lack of hesitation in mass genocide. Where as the good guys would not think of it.
But I would have to agree with your post, I have played and read some on WH40K. They are evil.
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cmryan
09/23/04 08:29 PM
68.136.26.129
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Hello flipper I don't think that the good guys will have any problem thinking up mass genocide. If you examine the history of the various factions discussed in this thread they all mention genocide at some point in their history. So they might be reluctant to launch a genocidal attack but it wouldn't be out of ignorance.
One other point just occured to me. What about the Genesis Device from StarTrek if you use it on an inhabited world. Say you convert a planet of Borg Drones into a Risa pleasure colony have you committed genocide?
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Brandx0
09/24/04 03:10 AM
24.207.43.89
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Depends on who you ask, the borg or the federation. The federation will say "yes" and the borg will say "Resistance is Futile"
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Lone_Wolf_Radick
11/11/04 07:21 PM
129.33.119.12
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Actually, the factions represented show both the capacity of man to be great and grealy evil, as well as our fear of the unknown, as evidenced by the horrible species like the borg... Overall, be it attrition, be it evil, be it simply popularity and good writing, I still think that the Empire would eventually rise to the top and crush the rest, especially considering it's a good chance many of them would eliminate each other in petty squabbles or willingly join a bigger faction long before facing one of the "major" players... sorry about ignoring the thread all, it was going great for a while...
-Wolf
War Never Determines who is right, only who is left.
"I find your lack of faith disturbing-Darth Vader"
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