masdog5
02/28/03 04:44 PM
205.213.146.15
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Well, its about time to move on from our previous rants about the Boxed Set and advertising.
I have been reviewing everything that has come out about the Jihad and the MWDA universe and I would like to come up with a more plausable timeline.
For starters, I think that the MWDA universe is a little far-fetched. I dont see any of the houses willingly conceeding worlds to for a new Terran Hegemony. I also dont like how many of the core world bite the dust in nuclear holocaust and how the WOB is able to mass enough forces to do the damage it did.
Now here is what I propose.
After the FedCom civil war, the Cappies engage in a short border war with the weakened FedCom. Although they lose a few worlds on some of their salients, they are able to prevent a large scale invasion.
That winter, the Star League Conference occurs on Luthien. Thomas Marik is elected First Lord of the Star League, and the WOB and ComStar are granted full membership into the League.
Soon after that, the real Thomis Marik surfaces, faces the League Parliment, and declares the current ruler an imposter. This starts a power struggle within the league as the Parliment tries to depose the impostor Thomas and place the real Thomas into power. The FWL falls into civil war and chaos as the WOB jumps in behind the Impostor.
Defeated and forced to run, the True Marik faction goes to ground, and the WOB forces, backed by 'loyal' FWLM units, go on a rampage through the Chaos March, conquering worlds and placing people in reeducation camps while trying to find these forces.
A Star League Conference is called to discuss hte issue of the First Lord, and they find that although he may be an impostor, he was the rightful ruler of the FWL and was elected to the First Lord Position. This causes a large public outcry where the new Star League is declared a sham.
WOB forces attack Comstar on Tukkayid thinking Victor is hiding the Real Marik. Comstar finally beats back the WOB forces, and the Comstar Civil War begins. WOB and Comstar strike at each others holding in every nation, destroying a number of HPG stations and mech units.
I do like the merger between the remnant of the FRR and the GB, especially since the elected Prince is one of the GBs. I would also like to see some merger between the WIE and Wolf's Dragoons, but only if it can be pulled off without being cheesy or poorly written.
I would like as many ideas as possible to make this storyline better and to expand it further.
Edited by masdog5 (02/28/03 04:57 PM)
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Cadet
03/02/03 12:09 AM
206.102.34.171
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Yeah, the MWDA universe is pretty poorly written, but what do I know? I'm just a NAYSAYER and FEAR-MONGER???
Anywho, I wouldn't even have the real Thomas show up. I'd just have someone leak the information out that the Thomas we all know and love is a fake. That starts a whole big internal row over who really is Captain General with several claiments to the throne. This leads to several states flat out ignoring the Addendum and several secessions (namely the the Duchy of Andurien). Since the CapCon has had a hard on over Andurien forever, they cobble some forces together to attack and get their noses bloodied. The FWL can't do much because of their internal problems and the FedSuns can't attack because the Taurians are keeping the Feddies occupied.
The WOB are never able to really get their thing going thanks to internal issues (some just fundamental problems in doctrine and some arising fromt he Thomas Marik issue). ComStar takes the oportunity to retake Terra with Star League help. However with the start ot fhe CapCon campaign over Andurien and the near break up of the FWL it becomes appearant that the SL doesn't work and it breaks up completely.
The Wolves and Jade Falcons make a combined push against the LA. At the end the ARDC is annexed but the Wolves are so beaten that it becomes clear that they may be attacked by Jade Falcon reinforcements fromt he Homeworlds. As a result (and thanks to the death of Vlad Ward) the Wolves and WIE reform as Clan Wolf, with Phelan Kell "retiring" and disappearing in order to smooth over the waters. During the incident the Kell Hounds are mauled, the LA suffers heavy casulaties, as does the Jade Falcons, and Wolf's Dragoons take serious casualties. The Hell Horses and Steel Vipers make pushes and regain territory in the Inner Sphere.
While this is going on a series of border disputes flare up to near war between the DC and the FS. The Ghost Bears decide to take advantage of this to finish off the FRR, but are stymied by the Nova Cats and ComStar. Even the Rasalhaguians who are under GB control are incensed and revolt openly where possible. Kurita shifts his focus away from Davion to retake some lost worlds as does the FRR. Thanks to the open rebellion the Bears are forced to give up 3/4 of their worlds to consolidate their holds. It is later found that the Diamond Sharks are arming the rebellion in exchange for promises of trade on newly liberated FRR worlds. The Sharks even go so far as to put troops in their fortified "trader towns" (essentially garrisoning the FRR worlds for them) while continuing to rearm and train the FRR troops.
I just don't see how the FRR worlds, with their populations who have been agitating for independence for centuries are just suddenly going to roll over for the Ghost Bears, go so far as to elect a POW as their leader, especially when that leader is fighting for their enemy. Come of FASA/FanPro/WizKids, give us a little credit...
Does not play well with others.
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masdog5
03/02/03 02:51 AM
205.213.146.15
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Not bad. Assuming the real Thomas is dead, or never was alive while the fake one was on the throne...good idea. I never thought of that. If there is a way I can use that to help destabilize the Star League after Marik is elected First Lord, then I will have part of my story.
The FedSun-Tauran conflict is a definite. Although the FS doesnt need another bloody war, it would be something for the populace to unite behind. I was also trying to shoot for Liao taking advantage of a weakened FS. The Kittery and Ziliang salients are looking pretty tempting...but unprotected League worlds....umm...munch. 
For the GB-FRR merger, I was going by what I read in FMCS. It says the Rashalagians think of Comstar as an occupying force. Since the Parliment of the nation is dumb enough to elect a Clansmen as their leader, i figured the GB would decide to take advantage of it and "merge" the two realms. Since Ragnar is the official ruler of the FRR, if he shows up, Mansdotter has to step down. If done right, and this is stretching it, you will end up with a realm that is politically halfway between the FRR and a Clan.
I cant see the JF and Wolf working together, because more often then not, they are at each others throat. They had their alliance of convience at one point, but only because they were both weakened and needed to prevent an absorbtion. Killing off Vlad is a good idea (i never liked him).
My goal with the Comstar-Word of Blake war is this: actually create a dark age in the Inner Sphere. I was planning on accomplishing this by having WOB units attack Comstar HPG stations. This serves two purposes: it removes Comstars principle source of funds and it gets technology out of the hands of "cursed heretics." I'm also looking to kill of Victor in battle(it will make it more interesting, especially if I find a way to kill off either Yvonne or Peter...causing FedCom to reunite and collapse under its own weight...).
As for a FS-DCMS border war, I cant see that happenig either. Victor and Theodore are close friends, and I cant see Theo doing something as dishonorable as attacking a wounded neighbor. Maybe if this had happened in 3039... 
Since the Combine is the only friendly IS power to both nations(despite the attacks on Combine worlds by the now deceased Sandoval, i cant see it effecting relations too much), I can see them providing some aid to help the nation rebuild.
Overall, though, thats a pretty good alternate history. Mind if I use some of it?
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Cadet
03/02/03 11:33 AM
206.102.32.20
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YOu want it, it's yours.
Does not play well with others.
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htmlord
06/07/04 05:01 AM
216.65.170.12
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Just a few ideas to a long dead post. Sorry this is a bit past due, but I only recently rediscovered BTech (the books were in a box in the closet!) and was looking for more info.
Okay, here we go:
ComStar, with Victor firmly at its helm again, launches a campaign to eradicate the WoB. Because of the tenor of the fighting, ComStar and WoB pull their garrison troops from the worlds their HPG's serve, to be replaced by House troops for the duration of the conflict. Obviously, as Victor has a winning streak of wars to lengthen, the ComGuards beat the WoB. However, with the war over, ComStar finds that its HPG stations are not its own anymore. The Houses have appropriated them for their own use and refuse to let the ComGuards or ComStar take them back. The ComGuards, now weary from years of fighting, decide that Terra and a few previously unallied worlds that they took from WoB are enough for them and leave well enough alone.
At this point, Theodore Kurita has recently died and Hohiro has assumed the position of Coordinator, and, due to a strange fluke of luck, is elected First Lord less than a year after taking the position. His first act, in an attempt to mend fences with ComStar, is to invite ComStar into the Star League as an equal, instead of tie-breaking vote only. Much to his surprise, Precentor-Martial Victor declines. Instead, a measure is introduced (and rapidly passed) merging the ComGuards into the SLDF and making them autonomous. Victor is sworn in as first permanent Commanding General of the SLDF. Relative peace ensues for 5 years, with only minor skirmishs between the SLDF and the Clans.
Victor, now exceptionally weary of war himself, decides to retire and live his own life. However, within days of his retirement, assassins take the lives of both his brother Peter and his sister Yvonne, taking the lives of the heads of both the Lyran Alliance and Federated Suns. Victor finds himself drawn into things again, only to again find that his family members are assassinating each other. Katherine, having rebuilt a small faction for herself in the Inner Sphere, seeks to have herself again placed on both thrones. The people, however, ask for Victor to lead them. Victor, having sworn off the leadership of both states already, refuses. This is when the bombshell arrives : Victor and Omi's baby. Or babies, as the case may be. The Steiner-Davion-Kurita twins.
Knowing the Draconis Combine, Lyran Alliance, and Federated Suns.. we all know how much strife that would stir up. And lots of nice wars that it would cause. Perfect BTech environment, if you ask me.
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JStallion
06/07/04 03:31 PM
69.244.182.44
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the JF and Wolf working together, because more often then not, they are at each others throat. They had their alliance of convience at one point, but only because they were both weakened and needed to prevent an absorbtion.
Once Ulric/Natasha/Phelan were gone along with the JF khans, Marthe and Vlad coupled etc. and were all buddy buddy, the only thing they did to each other was the wolves threatening the jade falcons while they were at coventry, and that only happened because of vlad and katrina's fling. I dont think the Jade falcons were ever in serious threat of being absorbed, they didnt lose that much in the refusal war. The way the war worked is the JFs threw in tons of 2nd line and solhamma units int eh path of the front-line wolf forces, slowly wearing them down. then they threw in all of their own front line units and beat up on the remaining wolves all at once w/o losing nearly as much front line units as the wolves. The wolves however were completely abosrbed (save vlad) and then turned into the jade wolves once vlad returned and then again the clan wolf.
what i really want to know is whats going on between the star adders and blood spirits, the tech readouts talk of the war happening on york, but thats all ive been able ot read on it. I would think the star adders would beat the $hit out of the spirits based upon extreme numerical advantage as well as technology, even when the spirits have better troops(supposedly the hardest training program of the clans). but the spirts are all on york and the adders were able to gain a foothold on the planet, id think from that alone theyd be able to bring in tons of troops and decimate the spirits. anyone know more about that?
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Karagin
06/08/04 09:22 AM
81.31.198.34
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I like all of the ideas posted...they add more interesting twists to the universe and less radical and needless changes that don't fit.
Plus it keeps things with in a logical, at least for BT, pregresion of moving forward with out revamping the whole game into something else.
Great ideas!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
06/08/04 11:23 AM
147.160.136.10
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I was about to make some suggestions about fixing various distasteful things throughout the timeline (like just having one Thomas Marik - one imposter House leader was bad, but then there's the Joshuas, the Thomas Mariks, etc.), but then I saw your proposal for a WoB/Comstar Civil War.
And I like that idea. I loik it alot.
It also gives you a chance to re-scale WoB to something matching Comstar, so they beat themselves to a pulp and the survivors are quietly annexed by various House "Bureaus of Communications," or private firms (in Lyran space). Gives me the warm 'n fuzzies to see all factions of the old Comstar worked over.
I was also going to give a thumbs down to the FRR/Ghost Bear merger (mostly because anything bad that happens to the Clans is good in my book), but then I thought about what happens to Da Bears in the merger: you get to see the "ink drop in milk" effect of cultural dilution that I've always expected would happen to the Invading Clans. A few tens of millions of Bears settle a stretch of Spheroid worlds with tens or even hundreds of billions of people. What happens? After a century, all you can find is a few Bear social clubs, some new Bear loan words in Swedenese, but it's the FRR in all but name. Yes, many warm 'n fuzzies with that thought.
Without the Jihad sapping everyone's military strengths, I'd expect the Lyrans to steadily grind away at the Jade Falcons to recover lost worlds (there's a lot of anger in the Tamar Pact and Skye against the Falcons - so many lost worlds - that without the Jihad, the Archon would have to listen to the demands for action). It worked for the Kuritans against the Smoke Jaguars - they kept the Jaguars from rebuilding after Tukayyid with continuous raids. A work of a generation, perhaps, but Lyrans have tenacity and the industry to just drown the Falcons.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
06/08/04 03:21 PM
216.14.192.234
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Your method doesn't sell many Major Plot political rubbish novels. Of course I don't consider that a bad thing  It was the 'and then this happened' 'and then this' in such short gaps purely to sell another poorly made sourcebook/dozen new mechs that caused much of the problems in the first place.
I actually like the 'turned the bears from the inside' part. Again not 'instant' nor some anime joke that seemed to be the fasa/wizkids thing. Something that can allow time for players to enjoy the atmosphere of playing a character for a few years during that period.
Oh and I like the Lime Green Cannaries getting picked off slowly as well. Its not as though they actually read 'The Art of War' anyway... 
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JStallion
06/08/04 10:02 PM
69.244.182.44
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Bah, you stravags.
I love the clans, theyre awesome. better technology but much fewer in numbers so extremely tough training making them superior troops etc. its all great. The bears turning pacifist (not literally, but compared to their former selves it seemed like a good word) is an insult even if expected. The Jade Falcons treated their captured worlds much better than the Smoke Jaguars did and so i do not see it as easy for the Lyrans, if anything i see the JF's grinding the lyrans away because the clans are all about war, its what theyre bred for. In the innersphere however theres a huge time of peace, so weve got a group all about war next to a group that is enjoying peace and most likely not nearly as prepared for fighting as war-designed genetically bred troops that border them and have superior weapons....... 
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Cray
06/09/04 06:10 AM
68.200.108.127
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Bah, you stravags.
I love the clans, theyre awesome. better technology but much fewer in numbers so extremely tough training making them superior troops etc. its all great.
Yes, because good warriors and munchy technology are what make a faction interesting.
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The Jade Falcons treated their captured worlds much better than the Smoke Jaguars did and so i do not see it as easy for the Lyrans,
Heh. You didn't read the Jade Falcon occupation zone description on the MWDA site, did you? The Jade Falcons will impoverish their occupation zone. Not as quickly as the Jaguars, but the effect was there nonetheless. Also, "much better" is an exaggeration. They stripped the civilians of their freedoms, forced them into socially primitive castes, and act with a brutality that might not measure up to Jaguar levels, but compares well to the Combine and Confederation - all things the freewheeling, socially mobile Lyrans dread.
Get the forthcoming Lyran Handbook [1]. You'll see the Lyrans have zero motivational problems when it comes to reclaiming their lost worlds. The new target of rabid Lyran hatred, thy name is Jade Falcon.
[1] Which, Grey, is an attempt to rectify as many of the discontinuities of all the previous crappy FASA-era Lyran books as possible.
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if anything i see the JF's grinding the lyrans away because the clans are all about war, its what theyre bred for.
"Bred for war" means squat when your opponent has more assassins in its intelligence and security services than you have in your entire warrior caste. Being bred for war also doesn't mean much when you have a fraction of the enemy's population, industry, and economy. Ask the warrior-raised Japanese what they thought about picking a fight on a peaceful, soft enemy with 12 times the industrial capacity.
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In the innersphere however theres a huge time of peace,
There hasn't been 5 continuous years of peace in the Inner Sphere in the past 275 years.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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JStallion
06/09/04 09:08 AM
216.11.142.158
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for starters, im picking up after CBT left off, not in the sense thats its before MWDA starts. so the MWDA book about the jade falcon occupation zone means nothing to me because i loathe MWDA, but in CBT i havent found anything about the falcons treating their captured worlds poorly, only when kai allard-liao was stuck on one and comstar treating him poorly then he even teamed up with the falcons to rid the planet of comstar (i believe operation scorpio had just taken place).
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Yes, because good warriors and munchy technology are what make a faction interesting.
are you serious or being sarcastic there?
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"Bred for war" means squat when your opponent has more assassins in its intelligence and security services than you have in your entire warrior caste.
bit of an exaggeration? i doubt the lyrans had fewer such assassins during the succesion wars but they didnt seem to be too much of a help there. well, i guess the lyran assassins did because katherine was assassinated by yet another lyran, and her daughter; but i dont think that helps your point too much. plus how do u see those assassins easily getting into the JF occupation zone? not saying they cant but its not like the JFs are going to be having many, if any, IS jumpships coming in bringing cargo etc. im sure theres plenty of ways to have the assassins come in, but itd be difficult and therefore few would be in.
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Being bred for war also doesn't mean much when you have a fraction of the enemy's population, industry, and economy.
was that not true when the clans invaded and took a huge chunk of the IS? and now that the clans have more planets, more resources, more industry etc. (not more than the IS but more than they had before) by taking those wouldn't it lessen the great advantage the lyrans had on the falcons? beause youre saying it didnt, yet it obviously did and now the lyrans have yet another border to defend and therefore spreading out that great advantage.
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There hasn't been 5 continuous years of peace in the Inner Sphere in the past 275 years.
again, i loathe MWDA but i do have 2 novels im reading. in "a call to arms" raul ortega talked about how tons of planets within the republic had never known war before because after the jihad itd been a time of peace and he wondered about how they would be able to stand up to the continuous fractioning of the republic, id quote it but im at school and dont have it with me
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 09:32 AM
216.14.192.234
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Jade Falcon: committed genocide early in the Golden Years period on its own people due to being far too liberal on newly settled planets. What will stop the even further mentally unstable Falcons now from doing the same to former Lyran planets that had far greater liberties before they came along?
They are also known as merciless merchants, with their centralized control meaning they would care little for the occupied worlds.
If you look historically, warrior-based cultures were initially successful but ultimately fell to religion, lack of numbers to maintain control of their captured lands and disease. The second one is the most logical outcome when an initially strong military no longer has a direct enemy but attrition still occurs. The only main difference between the stupidity of the design of the clans and historic forces purely military controlled is that the clans actually have a higher level of technology, historically I struggle to find military cultures outstripping other cultures technologically. eg Islamic culture at the time of invasion by the mongols was far and away more advanced than any of the military cultures of the time. Didn't stop it being overrun by the mongols though.
Now lets look at the 'fewer troops'. The clans are exceedingly wasteful in their training methods. If the IS even tried such a inefficient system of training troops they wouldn't be able to field more than a few regiments due to expense. Lets take the example of Steel Vipers, their training is so extreme that they are often lucky to have one pilot qualify as a mechwarrior from a sibko. Many of them may have failed earlier than the final qualification but the loss of mechs and pilots in that final test is sheen lunacy. Then the continual 'trials' that happen through a pilots life only results in death and destruction of their own Clans equipment. Its akin to rewarding troops for higher 'friendly fire' accidents.
The clan system is so inefficient that it almost certainly is designed to fail against a larger IS.
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 09:48 AM
216.14.192.234
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Remember it would take the clanners at least 20 years to replace trueborn warriors, which would hardly have been in place considering the dwindling resources many of them suffered from. This coupled with the sheer numbers they would need to garrison even more worlds and troops for conflict they just wouldn't be able to hold the worlds for a generation with dwindling trueborn warrior numbers....
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Cray
06/09/04 10:40 AM
147.160.136.10
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was that not true when the clans invaded and took a huge chunk of the IS?
That's is one the reasons I dislike the Clans: their implausibility. The Inner Sphere factions at least have the manpower for large invasions. All of the Clans added together have a smaller warrior caste than the troops the US is fielding in Iraq.
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im picking up after CBT left off, not in the sense thats its before MWDA starts. so the MWDA book about the jade falcon occupation zone means nothing to me because i loathe MWDA,
Rejecting canon just means you end up arguing about your home game, not the published game, and it's useless to continue the debate further. Also, the Jade Falcon MWDA information I referred to is on-line, not in a book. Finally, the MWDA information can be used to extrapolate back to 3067-era populations, economies, etc., removing the taint of MWDA from the information and bringing it back on topic.
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but in CBT i havent found anything about the falcons treating their captured worlds poorly,
Which of the following do you have:
*the Jade Falcon Sourcebook
*the Invading Clans Sourcebook
*the Crusader Clans Sourcebook
*the Warriors of Kerensky Sourcebook?
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are you serious or being sarcastic there?
Sarcastic with regards to warriors and munchtech making a faction interesting.
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i doubt the lyrans had fewer such assassins during the succesion wars but they didnt seem to be too much of a help there.
No, but BT is notorious for not exactly using intelligent or realistic strategies. For example, the Invading Clans have to use a few thousand warriors to attempt to occupy and control tens and even hundreds of billions of people. Would you care to visit a current news website and see how many soldiers are required to occupy and control a nation of 24.6 million people? It's not firepower that's the issue, either. It's having enough bodies on the ground to monitor the population.
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plus how do u see those assassins easily getting into the JF occupation zone?
How can the Falcons stop them? They don't have the troops to watch a few blocks around a capital building on one planet. Operation Bird Dog demonstrated just how easily the Inner Sphere can tie up an entire occupation zone with infiltrators. Realistically, that should've happened within a year on every Clan-occupied planet.
And the plausible rebellions did happen and work on Ghost Bear planets - the Ghost Bears initially lost about a dozen planets to rebellions. Those warm 'n fuzzy Bears just threatened worse atrocities than anything the Jaguars did: stop rebelling or all rebel planets will be exterminated..
Rar. What honorable warriors, those Clanners. If all else fails, threaten to exterminate tens of billions of civilians.
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and now that the clans have more planets, more resources, more industry etc.
1) The Clans shouldn't have those planets in the first place. The Clans might've had the firepower to destroy Inner Sphere front-line military units in the area, but they are horribly lacking in manpower to occupy planets. Do you know how big the NYPD or LAPD are, just to police a few million people?
2) The Clan warrior training methods means it will take a generation to harness the expanded resources.
3) Except in the Ghost Bear Dominion, the Clan occupation zone economies are imploding. They're squandering the available resources by forcing the wasteful Clan economy and castes on the Inner Sphere planets. Smoke Jaguar couldn't build up its military even 5 years after Tukayyid and left the Combine to reclaim impoverished worlds in Operation Bull Dog.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 11:06 AM
216.14.192.234
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Get the forthcoming Lyran Handbook [1].
[1] Which, Grey, is an attempt to rectify as many of the discontinuities of all the previous crappy FASA-era Lyran books as possible.
Sorry but I haven't gotten a btech book since the Master Rules first came out and I won't be getting any other poorly constructed book in the near future either. Most of those in charge of the WizKids stuff were the same lackies that made those crappy 'fasa-era' books. You can tell by the 'revised' books and their lack of support for their own material (lacking MW3 paths in their own revised house books and so on, not that I care about MW3 just shows lack of logical input in the process). I like the btech system, unfortunately it falls flat on its face as soon as they try to 'fluff' it out.
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JStallion
06/09/04 12:20 PM
69.244.182.44
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Jade Falcon: committed genocide early in the Golden Years period on its own people due to being far too liberal on newly settled planets. What will stop the even further mentally unstable Falcons now from doing the same to former Lyran planets that had far greater liberties before they came along?
how do u figure theyre further mentally unstable? if anything theyre more stable than ever before on their own belifes, which are different than IS beliefs but that in no way makes it unstable, just different.
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If you look historically
why do you and cray persist in looking at things that happend already in our reality. this isnt reality, its a game. saying things about whats happened historically doesnt prove much because history always changes.
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eg Islamic culture at the time of invasion by the mongols was far and away more advanced than any of the military cultures of the time. Didn't stop it being overrun by the mongols though.
still waiting on u to make a point with that one because the mongols had a larger army then their neighbors combined. they overran them by sheer force and numbers, as would the IS if they all actually combined to do so, but they fight and squable aomngst themselves so they can't. the clans do fight each other as well but cant on such a grandscale as the IS can.
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Lets take the example of Steel Vipers, their training is so extreme that they are often lucky to have one pilot qualify as a mechwarrior from a sibko.
and those others, if not killed in their training, go to different castes and fill roles that help support their clan. not as much of a waste as you put it.
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destruction of their own Clans equipment
yup, in their training lots of accidents happen and equipment is destroyed. things such as factories however dont get destroyed as commonly as it happens in the IS, take a look at the succession wars; while the IS is granding each other into stupidity the clans continue advancing. What do you think would have happened if the IS wouldnt have destroyed such things just because they cant have them and their enemy does? the clans might not have even invaded, wolf's dragoons wouldnt have been a superior-technology force and theyd go home telling their khans how they got beat up because the IS didnt grind itself away, and if they had invaded they would have been stopped much easier; then the IS would probably would have invaded the kerensky cluster/pentagon worlds.
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JStallion
06/09/04 12:43 PM
69.244.182.44
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All of the Clans added together have a smaller warrior caste than the troops the US is fielding in Iraq.
"all".....four..... its all the same right?
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Rejecting canon just means you end up arguing about your home game, not the published game
no, rejecting cannon means i dont care about MWDA and im only talking in terms of CBT. yes im arguing about my home game (unless you bring up a MWDA point) because thats what im tlaking about, not gay-@$$ MWDA
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, the MWDA information can be used to extrapolate back to 3067-era populations, economies, etc., removing the taint of MWDA from the information and bringing it back on topic.
could be, but does it say "this is from CBT" and "this is from MWDA"? no? ok then, so you dont know what its adding in for MWDA terms and what its taking from CBT. so ill just stick to CBT books etc. and not MWDA ones when im talking about CBT. makes sense to mean...i talk about CBT, so i read things from CBT. talking about CBT and reading things that add in stuff from MWDA doesn't because its still tainted since you cant decipher what is coming from where.
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Which of the following do you have:
*the Jade Falcon Sourcebook
*the Invading Clans Sourcebook
*the Crusader Clans Sourcebook
*the Warriors of Kerensky Sourcebook?
JF sourcebook and Crusader Clans
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No, but BT is notorious for not exactly using intelligent or realistic strategies.
EXACTLY, so why do you and try to use realistic terms when its not a realistic game? realistically communism is a good thing, but did it turn out that way? no because people are idiots and it wouldnt work. would BT work? im doubtin it. showing me things about how many people are needed to contain this many and why it wouldnt work is just crap. its not real. in napolean's time when they wanted to absorb france into the neighboring countries the french had a huge enlistment of of troops into their military to stop the opposing nations, a military so big, so huge, that it numbered one million. one million isnt much at all for an entire countries military count. so, things changed, and again BT is in the future, unrealistic, so why are you trying to make it out to be when its just not?
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How can the Falcons stop them? They don't have the troops to watch a few blocks around a capital building on one planet.
how can they get there? not saying its impossible but pretty close to. i doubt if the JFs have a bunch of IS jumpships coming in and out of there space that they dont know about, then having dropships land on their planets that again they dont know about. i feeling like im repeating myself....why is that? oh because i am, did u even read what i put earlier before commenting on it?
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What honorable warriors, those Clanners. If all else fails, threaten to exterminate tens of billions of civilians.
yet we in the U.S. bomb Japan and kill quite a few ourselves with no plans of stopping until Japan surrenders. it may not be "tens of billions of civilians" but thats because it cant be. to the clans, rebelling like that is considered unhonorable(read up on clan wolverine, they rebel, kerensky plans on bringing them back in after slabbing their hand with a ruler, they do big atrocity considered unhonorable and Wolverines nearly bite the bullet), so its what theyre about.
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The Clans shouldn't have those planets in the first place.
well boo hoo. they have them because they conquered them. please dont come back with a comment "well realistically blah blah blah" because its not realistic.
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Except in the Ghost Bear Dominion, the Clan occupation zone economies are imploding. They're squandering the available resources by forcing the wasteful Clan economy and castes on the Inner Sphere planets. Smoke Jaguar couldn't build up its military even 5 years after Tukayyid and left the Combine to reclaim impoverished worlds in Operation Bull Dog.
yet again, throwing MWDA facts at me means nothing because i dont care about MWDA. "this and this happened in MWDA" wow, thats nice, i dont remember when i stopped caring because from past forum arguements u know i dont care about MWDA, yet u contiue to throw their pointless facts at me like it means something. do you want me to start throwing useless facts to you? no? then please stop doing it to me.
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 12:57 PM
216.14.192.234
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how do u figure theyre further mentally unstable? if anything theyre more stable than ever before on their own belifes, which are different than IS beliefs but that in no way makes it unstable, just different.
Under the previous Khan's command the Clan became quite unstable, such staunch Crusaders and trueborn warriors yet had secret science caste warriors created. They have travelled far from their beliefs but still vainly believe they are there.
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why do you and cray persist in looking at things that happend already in our reality. this isnt reality, its a game. saying things about whats happened historically doesnt prove much because history always changes.
Its called a 'logic train' or a 'train of thought'. We are just showing that if you follow a logical progression 2+2 does not equal 7.36. When you have a 'universe' changing event you have to pretty bloody good explanation on how that came about, we just like shooting holes through the poor one given is all
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still waiting on u to make a point with that one because the mongols had a larger army then their neighbors combined. they overran them by sheer force and numbers, as would the IS if they all actually combined to do so, but they fight and squable aomngst themselves so they can't. the clans do fight each other as well but cant on such a grandscale as the IS can.
You pretty much answered the rest of the statement. The mongols were technologically inferior (though better trained warriors than the middle-eastern troops of the time), but rather than having far superior numbers they used fear and ferocity to do the damage. Much like the vikings had done to the technologically advanced (comparitively) european ports that outnumbered them.
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and those others, if not killed in their training, go to different castes and fill roles that help support their clan. not as much of a waste as you put it.
They still have to be retrained, from a older age than most other apprentices would be as well. Most mechwarriors suffer burn out by a very young age, some of that would be attributed to training, these failures may not last that long in their chosen profession. A good example would be a failed Elemental, good for a labourer but unfortunately prone to early arthritis.... not greatly effective for the long term.
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yup, in their training lots of accidents happen and equipment is destroyed. things such as factories however dont get destroyed as commonly as it happens in the IS, take a look at the succession wars; while the IS is granding each other into stupidity the clans continue advancing. What do you think would have happened if the IS wouldnt have destroyed such things just because they cant have them and their enemy does? the clans might not have even invaded, wolf's dragoons wouldnt have been a superior-technology force and theyd go home telling their khans how they got beat up because the IS didnt grind itself away, and if they had invaded they would have been stopped much easier; then the IS would probably would have invaded the kerensky cluster/pentagon worlds.
The funny thing is that we are not talking accidents, we are talking out and out conflict within your own troops destroying many units and lives.
I gather then that from this statement you don't know much about Comstar and in particular ROM during the succession wars? The IS didn't belt theselves into stupidity but rather Comstar assassinated top scientists or leaked info to one faction to attack another faction in such a way to hinder technological advancement.
How does a military nation advance in technology? In general it doesn't. It steals technology from neighbors, thats how they have seemed to work. Japan, similar in many ways as far as structure to the clans is concerned stole much of their technology from China and Korea prior to heavy european involvement in china itself.
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JStallion
06/09/04 12:59 PM
69.244.182.44
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and cray, ive gotta ask you; but dont worry therell be a point to it after/if u answer. are you one of those guys who sits at home all day, not going out unless for work or u absolutely have to? you shave maybe once a week or uve got that beard that looks like u did it with a lawn mower? probably around 200 lbs, never participated in sports (elementary leagues and middle school dont count). your idea of fun is sitting at home playing games nonstop or having a few guys over (never girls) and watching cartoons like dragonball Z? correct me if my image of you is wrong because im seriously not trying to make fun of u or be cruel in anyway even though it really sounds like i am. if u answer ill let u know my point behind asking.
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Cray
06/09/04 01:01 PM
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Most of those in charge of the WizKids stuff were the same lackies that made those crappy 'fasa-era' books.
Wizkids isn't writing the new books, and there's only a few - maybe 2 or so - of the old writers working with FanPro. Most of the writers are new and emerged from the fanbase. Further, the current products from FanPro are being reviewed and revised by many current fans. That is, some writers make a draft and drum up around 50 (up to 90) current fans to edit, canon-check, comment, and critique the draft. The books are getting a lot more playtesting than any FASA-era book ever did.
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You can tell by the 'revised' books and their lack of support for their own material (lacking MW3 paths in their own revised house books and so on, not that I care about MW3 just shows lack of logical input in the process).
Er...what House books have been revised?
The forthcoming House Handbooks (not to be confused with the 80s-era House Sourcebooks or more recent House Field Manuals) will have MW3 support.
AT2R, now available, expanded by 50% to cover the gaps of AT2 and minimize the number of books you had to reference (picking up slack from Battlespace and Explorer Corps).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 01:08 PM
216.14.192.233
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yet again, throwing MWDA facts at me means nothing because i dont care about MWDA. "this and this happened in MWDA" wow, thats nice, i dont remember when i stopped caring because from past forum arguements u know i dont care about MWDA, yet u contiue to throw their pointless facts at me like it means something. do you want me to start throwing useless facts to you? no? then please stop doing it to me.
Ummmmmm, Operation Bull Dog was a Fasa thing so proper Battletech material rather than MWDA derived. Relax a bit, your arguments are getting very sloppy at the moment probably due to your dislike of MWDA (Hey, I hate it myself I'm just not foaming at the mouth about it at the moment).
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JStallion
06/09/04 01:11 PM
69.244.182.44
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yeah but i was only refering to the MWDA facts, not operation bulldog and CBT things. i meant like the JF occupation zone MWDA thing and him talking about the ghost bear dominion etc. not pure CBT things. cray says the JF one is a mix, but if it has MWDA in it, its tainted.
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 01:20 PM
216.14.192.233
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For the record (in case you ask me as well):
I'm short (about 5'6"), about 120-130 lbs, play cricket summer and winter here in Brisbane, Australia (since the weather is good for summertime sports most of the year anyway). Have a partner who I live with and I have no problems socialising with her friends either. I like staying at home, but I do socialise with occassional games of tennis, shopping and the odd trip somewhere (Cairns for a week next month ).
I only 'forum' from work in fact.
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JStallion
06/09/04 01:23 PM
69.244.182.44
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Under the previous Khan's command the Clan became quite unstable, such staunch Crusaders and trueborn warriors yet had secret science caste warriors created. They have travelled far from their beliefs but still vainly believe they are there.
thats true for at least Clan wolf though too, i dont know about other clans, but positive the wolves are doing the same.
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When you have a 'universe' changing event you have to pretty bloody good explanation on how that came about, we just like shooting holes through the poor one given is all
but using past realism doesnt always work, thats all im saying. im not refering to us guessing at what happens between good CBT and sad MWDA, just at the realism cray makes it seem like battletech has.
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You pretty much answered the rest of the statement. The mongols were technologically inferior (though better trained warriors than the middle-eastern troops of the time), but rather than having far superior numbers they used fear and ferocity to do the damage. Much like the vikings had done to the technologically advanced (comparitively) european ports that outnumbered them.
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A good example would be a failed Elemental, good for a labourer but unfortunately prone to early arthritis.... not greatly effective for the long term.
thats speculation, the clans are supposed to be extremely advanced with medicine etc. so you couldnt say he'll suffer from early arthritis and i cant completely say he wouldnt. they might have a cure for it or a way to keep it so he wouldnt have gotten it in the first place.
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I gather then that from this statement you don't know much about Comstar and in particular ROM during the succession wars?
no i do but u cant deny that the IS empires would destroy one another's factories etc. just because the other had them and they didnt or couldnt hold on to them. that set them back as well.
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How does a military nation advance in technology? In general it doesn't. It steals technology from neighbors, thats how they have seemed to work.
and thats how the clans work, they steal it, they dont destroy one another's technology like the inner sphere did.
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JStallion
06/09/04 01:25 PM
69.244.182.44
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thanks, wasnt going to ask you though. was only asking cray and not you because i (along with many others) argued with cray in past forums etc. and i just draw that image about him.
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Cray
06/09/04 01:26 PM
68.200.108.127
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and cray, ive gotta ask you; but dont worry therell be a point to it after/if u answer. are you one of those guys who sits at home all day, not going out unless for work or u absolutely have to? you shave maybe once a week or uve got that beard that looks like u did it with a lawn mower? probably around 200 lbs, never participated in sports (elementary leagues and middle school dont count). your idea of fun is sitting at home playing games nonstop or having a few guys over (never girls) and watching cartoons like dragonball Z? correct me if my image of you is wrong because im seriously not trying to make fun of u or be cruel in anyway even though it really sounds like i am. if u answer ill let u know my point behind asking.
No on all counts.
*I'm a skinny pencil necked geek at about 150lbs and 5'8".
*About 15lbs of that comes from my habit of hanging at bars with friends, drinking beer - I would be skinnier if I stayed home and played video games.
*I admit to staying in Monday night flipping between the Comedy, Cartoon, and SciFi channel, but that was to kill time until a woman showed up. She did, and the TV went off.
*I have been informed by too-helpful friends that I WILL be participating in a blind date this upcoming weekend, to make up for putting me in the same birthday party as that very friendly married woman who didn't wear her wedding ring
*Not last weekend, but for the past two weekends before that my friends and I gave up on movies and computer games and went to a strip club instead - two of the guys brought their girl friends, and we were helping a very "kinked" third girl experience strip clubs for the first (and second) time
*I shower daily (sometimes showering twice daily, if I exercise twice in a day)
*I shave daily during the week; I work at an engineering firm with a "business casual" dress code (slacks, Polo shirts, leather shoes, good grooming required).
*During the weekends, I'm prone to skipping shaving, but not showering or changing clothes. I strongly dislike stinking or being greasy, and I've never had facial hair beyond 3-day stubble.
*I don't participate in sports (and never did except for tae kwon do), but I enjoy using my apartment complex's pool and soldier through a half hour on my own exercise equipment every morning (sometimes another half hour in the evening)
*I recently invested $100 in sound proofing so my downstairs neighbors would stop bitching about the noise of the exercise equipment (during the evening - they don't notice it when I exercise at 4:30am every weekday morning), so I'm quite serious about using it
*My diet is not snacky cakes, cheesy poofs, and soda though it might have more beer than it should. No, I know it has more beer than it should. Currently, my diet is calorie-counted meat in the morning and evening, rabbit food (Subway Garden Fresh salad) for lunch, and a side bowl of wood shavings (high-grain cereal) at breakfast. Drinks, beside beer, are water, hot tea, and skim milk.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
06/09/04 01:39 PM
68.200.108.127
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"all".....four..... its all the same right?
No, I meant the warrior caste of all...16? 17? 18? Clans total 110,500 warriors. That's an average of less than 10,000 warriors, including police forces, per Clan. I recommend picking up a copy of the Warriors of Kerensky if you can. The numbers and stories in there, written from a Clan perspective, portray the Clans as obnoxious and very implausible. A home world population of 1.15 billion invading and succeeding so wildly 2000 worlds with about 5 trillion people? Blech. (Though, I do admit, as hypocritical as the Clans are about avoiding waste in their economy, their economy and military sizes are THE most plausible in BT, in my opinion.)
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yes im arguing about my home game
Then what's the point of debating this?. I can debate what's in the books, because that's common ground. You can make up whatever you want in your home game and I can't say boo about it, because it's your home game.
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so why do you and try to use realistic terms when its not a realistic game?
Because you raised the issue of why I dislike the Clans. Their offenses against plausibility, and how they spoiled the existing flavor of unreality in the game (semi-feudal knights in giant robots), are among their many offenses to my sensibilities. Aesthetics are rarely completely logical.
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yet again, throwing MWDA facts at me means nothing because i dont care about MWDA. "this and this happened in MWDA" wow, thats nice, i dont remember when i stopped caring because from past forum arguements u know i dont care about MWDA, yet u contiue to throw their pointless facts at me like it means something. do you want me to start throwing useless facts to you? no? then please stop doing it to me.
Operation Bird Dog and Bull Dog occurred in the late 3050s, when the Inner Sphere gathered its forces and jointly stomped the Smoke Jaguars into the ground. Those operations (and the supporting Task Force Serpent) have nothing to do with MWDA and, in fact, predate the Jihad by a decade.
As for the Ghost Bears threatening to kill tens of billions of civilians vs the US and Japan, consider:
*The GB ultimatum was: surrender or everyone dies.
*The US ultimatum was: we'll stop when you surrender.
The US use of nuclear weapons (and willingness to leave the Emperor on the throne) saved tens of millions of Japanese civilian lives. Japan was starving due to the US naval blockade. Had the US invaded, likely about 1/4 of the Japanese population (15-20 million) would've starved or been bombed to death in the warring between US and Japanese militaries on those cramped, cramped islands. Those levels of civilian losses happened on Okinawa when the same situation occurred. Nevermind the avoided military casualties (a piddly few million on both sides), the US's goal to just end the fighting saved a lot of civilian lives, far more than were lost in the bombings.
The Ghost Bears, for their part, were so upset at few hundred dead warriors in a few successful rebellions that they were going to exterminate tens of billions of people in one sweep. There was no option for surrender given once the genocide began.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/09/04 02:20 PM)
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JStallion
06/09/04 01:44 PM
69.244.182.44
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well im happy the vast majority of what i assumed was wrong.
u said u did tae kwon do though as the only sport so ill ty to base this off of that.
were u good at tae kwon do? because when youre serious about sports or anything you train a lot, go running all the time, do tons of extras to be good and the best at what you do. I myself am a wrestler (using any gay jokes about that is pointless because if heard them all) and i have to cut 14 lbs to make weight, so i run constantly, lots of lifting and drill all the time. those things im sure u can relate to with tae kwon do, except the weight cutting i think. and it all pays off with great results, im the 12th best in my state for wrestling and i dont know anyone good that doesnt train hard.
Now the clans are all about war, go out of their way to even genetically breed troops just for it. they have extreme training and are in great shape and hone their skills. so few can get out of sibkos from many clans because its so hard. i love that, i train hard and do well, they train hard and do well. i cant help but love clans because of that, while the IS on the other hand dont train nearly as much (i know theres exceptions, but im speaking generally). they start off training really early, so did i for westling and getting in shape etc. i'm only 5'3 and 113 lbs (i cut to 119lbs) but im ripped and in very good shape, i only have 7% body fat, so the clans symbolize for me the end product of hard training (their training and physical expectations etc. not beliefs).
see based on my assumption i wouldve easily understood how u dont like the clans; but i was wrong on that. so maybe because you didnt do high school sports or if u werent into tae kwon do seriously you can see my view of the clans and understand why i dont like the Innersphere as much.
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Greyslayer
06/09/04 01:47 PM
216.14.192.233
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thats true for at least Clan wolf though too, i dont know about other clans, but positive the wolves are doing the same.
Good thing we were only talking about Jade Falcon, anyway it is harder to tackle Wolf since the Falcons are the ones who have extensive borders with an IS nation not the Wolves.
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thats speculation, the clans are supposed to be extremely advanced with medicine etc. so you couldnt say he'll suffer from early arthritis and i cant completely say he wouldnt. they might have a cure for it or a way to keep it so he wouldnt have gotten it in the first place.
Unfortunately I cannot remember the source, but elementals do suffer from arthritis and due to their size the medicine doesn't do much for them really.
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no i do but u cant deny that the IS empires would destroy one another's factories etc. just because the other had them and they didnt or couldnt hold on to them. that set them back as well.
It may not be the loss of the factory itself that cost them but rather the loss of the technology involved in the running of the larger factories that cost the IS the most. Again this was the work of Comstar, either directly or indirectly.
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and thats how the clans work, they steal it, they dont destroy one another's technology like the inner sphere did.
How did they learn it in the first place?
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