Courtesy of Eldoniousrex
“Alright, we need a slogan for this thing,” Carm said, laying down the marketing shots for Vining Engineering and Salvage Team’s latest product, the Great Turtle. “It’s gotta be something catchy, short, and sexy, but gets the point across.”
Dugan picked up the holoshots of the Great Turtle and shook his head. “And what is the point of this thing, exactly? I saw the latest fight. It didn’t exactly make things exciting. It just sat there and took it.”
Carm sighed and rubbed the bridge of his nose. “Yeah, I know, but this is what we got.”
Dugan sat back in his chair. “Why not, ‘Slow and steady wins the race’?”
“You’re kidding me, right? A nursery rhyme? To try and hook Earthwerks or Johnston Industries?”
“Fine then,” Dugan shrugged, “why don’t you take a shot at it.”
Carm had a tendency to think out loud—it was his process. One that often resulted in some terrible phrases that should never be uttered in an office setting. Or, really, ever.
“Carm, we talked about this,” Dugan explained, hands clasped almost as if in prayer to a higher power. “You can’t bring up excrement or sexual fluids in a marketing pitch.”
“Right right, okay then,” Carm took a step back like he’d just swung at his first strike. “How about, ‘The Great Turtle: it’ll take a beating like your second wi-’”
“Misogyny is also strictly prohibited in VEST marketing materials,” Dugan interrupted with a sigh.
Carm took another step back for strike two, then a step forward for his third and final pitch. “Alright, let’s go back to what this thing can do. It’s slow, it’s not very powerful, but it can take a beating like-”
Dugan raised a finger. “Careful.”
“-like nobody’s business,” Carm self-corrected. “Hardened armor has to be the sell somehow. It’s just not a very sexy thing to discuss.”
“I’ll give you that,” Dugan conceded. “The way we look at things, ‘Mechs are almost like hot rods. The best ones are fast, sleek, and deadly. If you can’t crash at velocities that’ll turn you inside out, nobody wants to buy it. Same problem with the Great Turtle. Not only is it not fast enough, but everything about it is designed to keep the pilot safe. There’s no sexiness in safety.”
“I know, and with other assault ‘Mechs, you could at least point at all the fancy guns,” Carm threw up his hands in frustration. “It’s got some fancy new lasers, but let’s not kid ourselves. Nobody is going to look at the Great Turtle and a King Crab and think they’re in the same league.”
“Can it even kill a King Crab?”
“In simulations, it’s a little better than average because you can’t get a lucky hit on the cockpit,” Carm pointed to the apparent ‘head’ of the Great Turtle. “That’s actually fake. The cockpit is further inside, safe and sound. What happens is the Turtle consistently picks away while the King Crab fires everything it has. One eventually chews through the other’s armor, and a few minutes later, we see who had the better gunnery.”
“A few minutes?” Dugan asked incredulously. “Why’s it take so long?”
“Four lasers, remember? Doesn’t even have enough heat sinks to fire ‘em all the time, but the armor means it can just sit there and eventually win the damage race.”
Dugan’s eyebrows shot up. “Wait, what did you say?”
“I said it doesn’t have enough heat sinks-”
“No, after that.”
“Uh, it wins the damage race?”
Dugan smiled, “We circle back to the first idea: ‘Slow and steady wins the race.'”
Carm stared, then groaned, realizing he’d just struck out. Dugan reclined back in his chair, head resting on his backward-stretched arms, and basked in another job well done. Neither Earthwerks, nor Johnston, nor any other ‘Mech manufacturer ever opted to purchase the Great Turtle.
Audio courtesy of Nate from BungleTech
Casualties are nothing new in war, but the increasing lethality of weaponry of the 3050s and ‘60s eventually became apparent to MechWarriors across the Inner Sphere. Gauss Rifles, ER PPCs, and Large Pulse Lasers could pluck a pilot’s life in the opening salvos of an engagement, making a MechWarrior’s survival more a matter of luck than skill.
Ever one to marry statistical analysis with ‘Mech design, Vining Engineering and Salvage Team took the data and turned a problem into a solution. The problem was MechWarriors dying more often on the modern battlefield, and if more lethal weapons were the cause, then the solution was better pilot protection.
In 3067, the solution to survivability gained a name: the Great Turtle. Like many of VEST’s designs, the Great Turtle was an experiment in MechWarrior preservation that started with the Quad ‘Mech chassis. Four legs meant that the chassis was generally less likely to fall, and if the pilot did lose control, the fall would be shorter and therefore less deadly. It was also the sturdiest chassis design known, allowing for more armor to be allocated than any other BattleMech then known to man.
VEST used experimental Hardened Armor to burden the Great Turtle with 40.5 tons of protection—more than twice the tonnage of armor found on the Atlas. While this also doubled the cockpit protection, VEST took pilot safety a step further by removing the pilot from the ‘Mech’s head and putting it safely within the ‘Mech’s center torso thanks to a Torso Mounted Cockpit. Not only would the opposition have to chew through more than two Atlases-worth of armor to deal critical component damage, but it was essentially impossible to kill the pilot with a lucky shot.
The GTR-1 also mounted a standard Vlar 300 engine, so only penetrating the thickest armor could damage it, and a Compact Gyro further made it harder for the Great Turtle to suffer a catastrophic gyroscope failure.
However, there has long been a formula in mechanized warfare that calls for balance in speed, protection, and firepower; improving one often came at the expense of the other two. Such was the case with the Great Turtle, where the design sacrificed both speed and firepower for its impressive defenses.
Despite having the same engine and overall mass as the Atlas, the Great Turtle was 10 kph slower than the iconic assault ‘Mech. It also possessed far fewer and less powerful weapon systems than the Atlas, although they were newer. Precision Weaponry provided one Large and three Medium X-Pulse Lasers to make up the totality of the GTR-1’s armament. All four weapons were tied to a Targeting Computer, making the Great Turtle an extremely reliable weapons platform if not a particularly impressive one. Three jump jets ensured that the Great Turtle could remain pointed at its foes, and 14 double heat sinks kept the design relatively cool, although repeated alpha strikes would cause overheating problems.
There initially seemed to be great interest in the Great Turtle after the ‘Mech’s test pilot, Kevin “Sir Crimson Bryn” McFadden of Bromley Stables, won three Solaris matches in a row—the final one even defeating a previous VEST design. However, the fights were not particularly exciting. McFadden would simply trundle into the open, volley-fire his array of X-Pulse Lasers into the enemy while ignoring all incoming damage, and eventually score a lucky hit that disabled his opponent.
When interest seemed to falter, VEST attempted to solve the GTR-1’s heat issues with the GTR-2. This removed the X-Pulse Lasers in favor of an ER PPC fitted with a Capacitor alongside three ER Medium Lasers. The design carried three additional double heat sinks, allowing it to fire all of its weapons repeatedly without any risk of heat-induced shutdown.
Unfortunately, the GTR-2 also failed to secure financial investment either from Solaris stables or larger military manufacturers. There were few Solaris broadcasters interested in the sort of immobile slugfests that fights against the Great Turtle tended toward, and few commanders were interested in a platform that seemed only capable of last-stand defensive actions.
Although certainly not VEST’s lowest point (that would come during the Jihad, as it did for so many boutique ‘Mech designers), the Great Turtle was also hardly a success story. Only a single example of both the GTR-1 and GTR-2 was ever produced, and both were presumed lost during the Word of Blake‘s occupation of the Game World.
Since then, pilot protection has been a subject that waxes and wanes within military design bureaus. Ideas championed by the Great Turtle, such as Hardened Armor or a Torso Mounted Cockpit, can be found on modern designs such as the Lyran Götterdämmerung or the Sea Fox Hammerhead, but rarely are these concepts found together. As the Great Turtle proved, relying entirely on defense isn’t always a winning strategy.
And as always, MechWarriors: Stay Syrupy.
Ah the Great Turtle. When you want a mech to take fire to save your precious assault mechs from damage.
I can see this thing being used alongside Urbanmechs and Annihilators for urban defense, or when you know that you have a choke point you need plugged. Don’t need a whole lot of movin’ around for those roles.
As funny as I think the Great Turtle is, it is unfortunately an example of why you can’t go all-in on the defensive point of the armored warfare triangle. The BV is just too massive a cost for the performance, and BattleTech is just one of those games where “party tank” isn’t a viable role.
It COULD be good if used properly: lots of weapons, lots of armor, steady quad platform: it could be used for a defensive position easily! But honestly, it needs a MUCH better name than the Great Turtle; sounds like something from a children’s tale or fantasy novel! A few years back, there was this Sci-Fi novel–I forget the name–that had a robot assault taking place using mecha like the Great Turtle called, get this, “Alamo Avengers”! Totally lethal in that novel: some of you out there might know the novel and what I’m talking about! Looking forward to hearing feedback!
You wouldn’t happen to be referring to Peter Hamilton’s “The Commonwealth Saga” series would you?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Stalker_II
It’s the same design idea, with a little better execution.
The real question is why NO ONE thought to use/market this thing as a Command Mech.
Stick your resident tactical mastermind in there, maybe throw in a C3 Master, and carry out your missions safe in the knowledge that absolutely NOTHING is going to impede their tactical mastermind-ing short of the planet’s crust opening up and swallowing them whole.
Yeah, this definitely seems like a case of right ‘Mech, wrong market. This thing’s basically a bunker on legs—perfect for a mobile command post.
Ditch the large for more mediums. It’s a fun design to play with, just…don’t go into the open. And avoid re-engineered lasers. I like the idea, just not the implementation.
As a matter of fact, I was referring to The Commonwealth Saga: that Alamo Avenger battle really left an impression on me! But, thinking about it, it also described in vivid detail the graphic effects of having energy weapons like particle beams, in Battletech, PPCs, going off VERY close to an unprotected person! That’s something that Battletech literature almost never mentions! Think how it must be for unprotected soldiers and others when a battle is going on full-blast and you don’t have the protection of a Mech or a Tank/Armored vehicle or Battle Armor to protect you! OUCH!!!
The idea of the Great Turtle as a command mech sounds all fine and dandy, but as soon as the bad guys find out WHICH mech is THE command mech, they’re going to throw EVERYTHING they’ve got, kitchen sink included, to take it out! Goodbye command mech AND Resident Tactical Genius, despite his genius and all that armor protection and C3! The Clans would go after the command mech under the notion that the Resident Tactical Genius, who’s running the show, is a coward because he’s hiding in the safety of his mech to the rear of the fight and NOT leading the battle up close and in person!
I disagree. There have been obvious command mechs before and they didn’t cause the problems you allude to. In fact, the venerable Atlas itself is a command mech, not to mention things like the Cyclops and Battlemaster were obvious command mechs. Command mechs are not new in the BT universe and have not caused the problems you predict.
Let them throw everything at it, I’ve had a Great Turtle take 3 rounds of sustained fire from several assault mechs and it still had enough armour to take another round, maybe 2.
I LOVE this mech. But I understand why it makes the list.
Bruh. this mech is a WONDERFUL line holder.
it’s slow. it’s EXCEEDINGLY difficult to remove, and it has enough firepower to make most mechs think twice before approaching
you NEED to rename this series, its getting desperate now.
Any mech can be wonderful in its ideal role, but that doesn’t make for a successful or viable design in most situations, which is why this mech finds itself here. You also need to realize that this series covers mechs that are canonically flawed, and that includes flaws that wouldn’t matter in the typical TT match, like the Stone Rhino’s expense.
I have seen a Great Turtle used to defend an HQ location. It had the benefit of being in a built-up urban area, limiting combat to very short ranges, and it was placed in an intersection ahead of its defense targets.
Its nearly 3200 BV was cost-countered by a short lance of three Phoenix Hawks, who proceeded to jump around it with impunity, each grabbing an HQ vehicle, and then leaving before the Turtle could do more than randomly burn their armor.
“Hard to kill” is not the same as “good for defense,” and with the advent of the Re-engineered Laser, Hardened Armor isn’t even that much of a guarantee as it used to be.
fair point, but I ment in more open environments. but i’d also like to point out any 1 mech would struggle to defend against three Phoenix Hawks.
this also allows me to expand on my point, that being the Turtle is great, but it needs friends. a mobile emplacement is useless if most threats can harmlessly walk by it, and as such, the Turtle would need some form of medium Mechs to assist it.
I made a whole Doc dedicated to really seeing if the mech’s in this series are bad, and the Turtle came to be a Situational mech, which like, Gentleman Reaper said, means it is high successful in it’s role, and little else.
Here’s a potential slogan for those marketing guys from the story: “The Great Turtle- for when you definitely don’t want to die!”
“The Great Turtle: Immortality In Iron”
Sad that the Jihad and everything past it is still Canon. It’s the ass end of the franchise, other than the “Picka time – 3025, all the way up to 3058” question that all TT players do before playing.
Thats what im always thinking wenn they throw another timeline advancement. Jihad was a badly executed event und darkage just stinks.
The only good thing at ilclan era is Fox Patrol. And tbh Fox Patrol could have played way before.
Moving a franchise forward is needed though. If you keep it in its original time frame only, it starts to die when the fan base ages out. (Through death or just loosing interest) I understand having a favourite time frame, I do as well (3000-3060ish), but the franchise is alive and active.
I also have my least favourite time frame as anyone does, the dark ages. I find the blackout to be more of a plot device with no other reason than to reset to the ‘everything’s becoming lostech’ feel. But it IS canon. It is important to the timeline. Each era has its ups and downs, the succession wars have huge problems with the loss of tech not standing up to the actual wars fought as they have had to retcon the numbers to make sense.
To get back to the topic, the turtle seems like a different choice to the charger. Hear me out, I know the charger is all speed and punching and this is slow and tanky with midling damage but both work great in narrative campaigns. The charger is a fast assault ‘mech with a paltry weapons load out meant for a player group to encounter as an early boss of sorts. The great turtle can be easily outmanoeuvred with okay weapons and stupid amounts of armour. This makes it great for a ‘boss’ battle when the players have medium ‘mechs.
I’m just responding to the final paragraph, as that’s what i’m here for
okay, now that you say that, your completely right. in a narrative setting, the Turtle and Charger both can act as a test of Player skill, seeing if they can out maneuver the Turtle, or out damage the Charger. both encounters would need smaller support Mechs to ensure it’s not just a total deconstruction of each, but that goes for any mech fight. still, I like this idea… I might use it.
Honestly so many of these “bad mechs” are just bad main loadouts, bad in lore, or bad for a particular playstyle. So many of these mechs are actually decent, so very much a big meme of a series of articles lmao.
You had it in the first half. That’s how it works.
Still, the opposition is still going to go after the command mech to take it out of the fight pronto! And there are mechs designed to go after command units and destroy them, like the Exterminator. And let’s not forget the Clans have Elementals and mechs configured as Headhunters to eliminate command units, and when it comes to the Great Turtle being a command mech, place it WAY in the rear where it stands a good chance to get away just in case because as it has been pointed out already, it’s VERY SLOW!
Or, the alternative for the command units is to go VERY stealthy and NOT draw attention to yourselves! Focht of Comstar did just that inside his VERY-well hidden command bunker on Tukkayid and coordinated the Com Guards against the Clans using virtual-reality tech from the Star League era, manipulating his forces as pieces on a holographic chessboard and having a VERY minimal defense force present at the bunker’s location: a planet is a BIG place to search for something, even in the 31st Century! It didn’t hurt that the Clans ALL fought as individual Clans using their alien rules of engagement and NOT as a combined-armed force, which the Com Guards most certainly DID! Of course, the Clans certainly since then have adapted…..
Had not heard of this Mech. Sounds like it would be a fave target in MWO! “Everyone get the turtle, he’s turtling!”
Jokes aside it’s not really a “Mech” – it’s not for mobile warfare. It’s for standing ground and taking punishment. It’s barely mobile enough to avoid artillery, maybe a few of these can surround a command bunker or mobile HQ.
And anything with this many “X Pulse lasers” can’t be all bad! What a weapon, wow heat penalties yes but it’s more of a game-changer for small mechs versus big ones, than the heavy lasers – which aren’t any more heat efficient. THey’re an excellent use of limited tonnage.
I mean…I feel like the ‘solution’ to the design problems are obvious.
Install a big weapon, don’t care which one, don’t care how many other weapons would have to be removed, as long as it has ONE weapon that would make enemies go “That’s a problem”.
I mean sure, being able to shoot all the time is great, but I think the proper use of this would have been to force enemies to question “Do I waste my time, and, possibly, ammo, firing at the big armored bastard, while his lance ticks at me, or do I risk ignoring it and being killed?” not unlike battleships in naval warfare back in WW2.
Ah, battleships! Dreadnoughts is the better term! But battleships got rendered obsolete in WW2: we remember the day it happened, which was December 7, 1941 in Hawaii! The aircraft carrier does the job better and has greater versatility and range, but there’s NOTHING out there in terms of naval assets when it comes to delivering MASSIVE firepower all at once on a single target then a battleship! And like the Great Turtle, the battleship is definitely a big armored bastard!
Center torso cockpits are death traps for several reasons:
1. From the front and rear on an undamaged ‘Mech, center torsos are hit seven times as often as the head. If you don’t have 7x as much armor on the design then in the long run pilot deaths are more likely than decapitation hits.
2. All damage transfer paths lead to the center torso; none go to the head. As damage mounts, the pilot is more likely to die.
3. Center torso cockpits lack ejection systems. The pilot is stuck with a badly damaged ‘Mech.
4. Loss of life support can lead to quick pilot death in hot-running ‘Mechs.
Decapitation is not fun and is a quick ‘Mech kill, but in the long run a torso-mounted cockpit is deadlier.
The torso-mounted cockpit seems to be the standard for all the mecha franchises (Gundam, Robotech, etc.) and they don’t ever seem to have problems with that placement of the pilot in the machine (Storyline, perhaps?) but with Battletech it seems that the norm is in the head, and some mech heads aren’t all that big to begin with: need I say the Stinger, for instance?
The Ryoken/Stormcrow is also another mech with a center-torso-mounted cockpit and no one seems to mind it that much! Probably it’s because it has a reputation of being a surgically precise and lethal cutting-edge OmniMech: also it has an unusual appearance to it in all it’s pics!
I keep thinking the thing could had improve jump jets and get third variant named “Gamera” ;)
A command mech variant would been cool, too bad this thing was 2 and done.
GAMERA! The ORIGINAL Japanese mutant turtle! Got to love it!
The Quad mech is great as a stable firing platform, but once they start to move…ugh! Look at the Scorpion! But the Goliath did great during the Clan invasion and thanks to the runaway success of the Tarantula, it became the “Golden Age” of Quad mechs, for both the Inner Sphere and, surprisingly, the Clans! Sadly, though, the Great Turtle is NOT one of those success stories!
bruh, PLEASE learn to use the reply feature. unless it’s stupid and makes a whole new comment if it’s the bottom comment you replying too (aka, testing it with this message)