Talk:Centurion (BattleMech)

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Kai and Danai[edit]

Since Danai is Sun-Tzu Liao's grand-daughter, shouldn't that make her Kai's grand-niece and not his cousin? Unless he really did leave it to one of his cousins and the name here is wrong. Just thought I'd check before editing. Haruspex 07:13, 18 February 2008 (CST)

Technically, there is no such thing as a "grand-niece." While its usage is common in normal parlance, they would actually be something like third cousins, maybe something twice removed. --Scaletail 07:30, 18 February 2008 (CST)
Something is wrong here. Kai died in 3113 while Danai was reportedly born in 3108, i.e. she was only five years old when Kai died. Also, I too disagree with calling them "cousins". Since this is all irrelevant for this article, I have rewritten the parts in question to leave out these details altogether. Frabby 07:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Regarding Kai's relation to Danai - Kai and Sun-Tzu were first cousins. Danai was THOUGHT to be Sun-Tzu's daughter, making her his first cousin, once removed. In reality, she was his first cousin, twice removed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin ClanWolverine101 21:17, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

CN10-B[edit]

What is the source for this variant? It does not appear in MechWarrior Dark Age I or Record Sheets: 3050 Upgrade, which is supposed to be the compilation of all upgraded variants. It is certainly conceivable that one 'Mech variant was left out, so I have not yet removed it from the article. --Scaletail 12:26, 5 April 2008 (CDT)

The source for that 'Mech is Record Sheets: 3060CJ 00:35, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
I see -- not a source I have. I should have checked Combat Operations, as it's also in the list of 'Mechs in there. --Scaletail 09:52, 6 April 2008 (CDT)

55 tons Centurion[edit]

In MechCommander, another version of the Centurion appears : it uses a new 55 tons chassis, and add a PPC to its weaponry. Is there any source for this version ? It is said, in MechCommander manual, to be produced by Corean Entreprises for the Federated Commonwealth, adding a PPC or 2 Medium Lasers. --FIVE-one 13:53, 19 April 2008 (CDT)

Only the videogame. --Scaletail 18:06, 19 April 2008 (CDT)
Definitely warrants a notion as an apocryphal variant imho. I don't have the game or its manual though. Frabby 07:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
The CN10-B is built on the 55 ton chassis but has a different load out to the three in the game --Dmon 19:47, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I have the game. I'm not sure it even bears mentioning, giving how apocryphal that game is. ClanWolverine101 21:34, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Wolverine101. I'm a proud owner of this certain piece of entertainment-technology myself and I'd say: Don't mention it here, its far off the boardgame rules. RagTag 10:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
And I disagree, since I don't have it and without somebody else to put that information online (with the appropriate canonicity warning), I'll never know... :) Frabby 11:01, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
As Frabby says; it doesn't hurt to mention it and is informative for others. It may be trivial, but it is BattleTech. I sure wouldn't want to give it its own article, so putting it here provides the acceptable representation.)--Revanche (talk|contribs) 11:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
According to Policy:Notability, it bears mentioning and should not be removed. --Scaletail 21:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Yen-Lo-Wang....[edit]

Is not a Pilot. It is incredibly bad-ass, but it doesn't pilot itself. I mean, it would be cool if it did, but this is not "Neon Genesis Evangelion"... huh.
So. Do I change this? ClanWolverine101 16:40, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

It's a variant. It'd go under Variants (And there's been more then one). You'd list Kai under pilot, pointing to the Yen Lo Wang variant. --Istal devalis 17:15, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Kai, Justin, and the incest-spawn from the Dark Ages. Yes. On my todo list. ClanWolverine101 17:43, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
It's not a variant, it's a unique 'Mech. I put in under "Famous MechWarriors" as a summation of the three famous MechWarriors who piloted it. --Scaletail 19:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
A unique variant is still a variant. It uses the CN9 designation, the record sheets still list it with the other Centurions, and all the DA versions still call it a Centurion. Ergo, it's a Centurion and 'Yen-Lo-Wang' should go under Variants. As is, the thing already has its own Wiki entry, so do we really need to duplicate an entire paragraph for the silly thing? --Istal devalis 19:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
I will point out, for the record, the YLW has its own page. Having said that... yes, it is ultimately a modified Centurion. The weapons are totally different and other equipment may have been changed, but its still the same chasis. Ergot, on THIS page, I argue it should be called a variant. On its own page, it should be called a unique mech. That's my thinking. ClanWolverine101 21:44, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Because I couldn't describe the changes I wanted to make, I went ahead and did it. Forgiveness is easier than permission, ne? This brings it in line with other unique variants on other 'Mech articles. Opinions? --Scaletail 23:04, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
Yay. :P ClanWolverine101 23:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC) (No, it looks good)
Where does it say there is only one CN9-YLW Centurion? I find it hard to believe such a famous and successful variant wouldn't be copied, much less on Solaris where customization is the order of the day. The fact alone that there is an official record sheet for one CN9-YLW variant seems to suggest that it became a frequent modification (probably restricted to the arenas though). I like Scaletail's approach and have adopted it myself. Frabby 07:03, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
IMHO - YLW holds a special place in Battletech Lore. As such, it deserves its own "unique" category. Given that its been refitted at least three times to special variants, there is no single YLW variation. Certainly, perhaps, its been copied on Solaris, but let's face it : The configuration meant less than those who piloted it. ClanWolverine101 15:30, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
I think you're mixing up two different things here: Yen-Lo-Wang is a famous individual BattleMech, and owing to its fame it does have its own article on BTW as you pointed out. But "CN9-YLW" has been established via Record Sheet to be a specific 'Mech configuration (that the original Yen-Lo-Wang didn't even resemble anymore after 3050); circumstantial evidence suggests that the CN9-YLW was never a line model but probably a popular refit after Allard's successes, and there may be any number of other CN9-YLW running around on the arena planets. I do think that my recent edit, in conjunction with the article covering Yen-Lo-Wang specifically, covers this adequately. Frabby 16:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, sure. A listed variant based on YLW... etc. etc. Got it. Mostly, I just wanted the pilots listed properly. ClanWolverine101 17:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
TRO:3039, p. 132: "Justin Xiang Allard won the Grand Championship in... his unique CN9-YLW" (my emphasis). As for Danai, Principles of Desolation, p. 51, "[Yen-lo-wang] was a gift, a gift bequeathed to her by a legend who had believed in her potential when she was barely more than a toddler." So, yes, there is only one Yen-lo-wang and Kai Allard-Liao left it to Danai Liao-Centrella. --Scaletail 23:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
*Nods* Fair. ClanWolverine101 00:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Got what passes for a clear answer from TPTB on the CBT Forum: There is no CN9-YLW variant. Updating the article accordingly. Frabby 19:04, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Its not fun to find dead links to a defunct website as the only explanation for de-canonization of a 'Mech listed in official publications (CN9-YLW). Its not just on this page, and the "CBT forums" are a frequent offender. My opinion is that if there is no evidence remaining for why this variant was de-cannonized, it needs to be re-canonized until a new case can be brought.--recordsheet
The loss of the original post due to a forum wipe and/or URL change does not mean the decision was nullified. The CN9-YLW was not de-canonized. It was explained that the YLW designation refers only to one custom variant of many custom variations performed on that individual Mech. The individual Mech (chassis) itself is still named Yen-Lo-Wang by its owners.--Cache (talk) 13:53, 21 March 2019 (EDT)
This seems very bizarre for SARNA. We can't expect visitors to this page to accept that "a decision" was made years ago on a defunct forum that prevents a published variant from being listed in the variants section, that it is "explicitly not considered to be a proper variant", and that the CN9-YLW designation refers to a single serial-numbered mech. What is any of that supposed to mean? From the perspective of someone just stumbling across this page, it looks insane. --recordsheet
I would not really say it is not very Sarna at all, the point is that CN9-YLW as a variant (assuming variant to mean a different version of a standard configuration) does not and never has existed. It is a Unique 'Mech and is treated as such in the aricle, I imagine the "CN9-YLW" nomenclature does not exist in universe. --Dmon (talk) 14:56, 21 March 2019 (EDT)
The first reference to the CN9-YLW I ran across was a 1996 print of "Record Sheets Vol 2: Medium Mechs" where it is listed on its own record sheet with a full build list. The newest reference I have is the RS3039 Unabridged where it is listed with the exact same inventory and the full title of "Centurion CN9-YLW 'Yen Lo Wang'". Again, it is listed on a record sheet, considered current, and I have no idea why someone would say it is "explicitly not considered to be a proper variant". What is that even supposed to mean to a reader? That it isn't legal for tournament play? Its in the current record sheet and has been in at lease one previous sheet, so I don't think anyone could make a case that it doesn't exist and never existed.--recordsheet
We have entire articles with no citations, grammatical errors everywhere, and on and on. We strive to be better, but that is the nature of a publicly edited wiki. I hardly think that broken links to the former official BT website is bizarre. It is unfortunate at best. However, if you feel the need to address the situation, might I suggest posing the question in the new BT website's "Ask the Line Developer" forum. Perhaps we can start a discussion elsewhere as to a better method of preserving forum posts used as references.--Cache (talk) 19:12, 21 March 2019 (EDT)
You are correct about those things. Since SARNA is updated constantly, as opposed to any published data about BATTLETECH, people often consider SARNA articles to be more accurate. I know I do. So when I read something in a publication and then see it contradicted here, I would usually assume the published version to be in error. That is why this particular issue about the CN9-YLW is so important to me. I'll look into things over at the BT forum under "Ask the Lead Developers" and see what I can come up with. As to the preservation of forum posts, that is unfortunate to have lost them. You are right, that is a huge topic that needs to be taken up elsewhere. As for now, I would like to see a "no dead link" policy for articles. We could make a note of dead links being taken down in case the data can be recovered at a later date and a new link inserted at that time. But to keep the dead links up seems like a bad idea. --recordsheet
What a reader is meant to think about the legality of the design in tournament play? Here is the thing... I didn't think of it from that perspective, There are people like myself who don't care a bit about tournament play and rules and all that junk that gets in the way of the story. So to me, Yen-Lo-Wang is the 'Mech Kai Allard-Liao pilots in the books and is the only one like it in existance and my stance of "explicitly not considered to be a proper variant" is something I stand by, because it is not a variant in the context that the term is used on the wiki but a unique one of a kind unit. This is where a LOT of compromise comes in on the wiki between those who see BattleTech as a Game and those who see BattleTech as a sci-fi universe.--Dmon (talk) 21:07, 21 March 2019 (EDT)
Ah, I see. I was considering things from the perspective of table-top play without any consideration for "fluff", novels, etc. I recently asked on the BattleTech forum about this, and I was told that "in universe" there is only one of this 'Mech, AND that it is legal for play. Considering that the current publication data has the same four Centurions that were published in previous editions and that this is one of them, I would like to see it receive the same treatment on SARNA as the A, AH, and AL models along side it. I don't know how "variants" have been defined for use in this wiki. It looks like the CN9-YLW was published as a variant at least as far back as 1991. If an in-universe story about this model that explains it as a unique model was published earlier than any table-top publication, there could be a case made for it not being considered as a standard variant. I don't know the answer to that, myself.--recordsheet

To (hopefully) clarify: Yen-Lo-Wang is canon. The -YLW variants of the 'Mech are canon. And tournament legal.
However, it was explicitly pointed out by the Line Developer that those -YLW variant designations are only used for one particular individual 'Mech, the eponymous Yen-Lo-Wang. If Solaris MechWarrior Bob modified his Centurion to the exact same stats as YLW, it still wouldn't be called a CN9-YLW. If you think that doesn't make any sense at all then I totally agree, but the LD ruling stands. "Not a proper variant" is misleading, so I'll go ahead and reword that part for clarity. Frabby (talk) 04:56, 22 March 2019 (EDT)

Centurion height[edit]

The Yen Lo Wang, about to be piloted by Kai Allard used the Yen Lo Wang as part of a training exercise in Lethal Heritage, is likely between 9 and 12 meters. The hangar bay the Yen Lo Wang boots in had many 'mechs, all from 9 meters to 12 meters in height. By process of association, so too is the Yen Lo Wang, and therefore Centurions are between 9 and 12 meters tall. I personally lean toward 12, given that every time a Centurion is depicted near other 50 ton mechs, the Centurion almost universally towers over them--Koniving1 (talk) 03:01, 29 September 2019 (EDT)

I have seen a few different heights for the CN9 myself and agree that 12m "feets" about right to me. All the official artworkI can think of it looks quite slim but tall compared to most other 'Mechs in the same weight category.--Dmon (talk) 06:45, 29 September 2019 (EDT)