User talk:Charles Maxwell

KS Character article

Hey Charles,

Just looking at the article for your charcter from the 2019 Clan Invasion crowdfunding campaign. I know the character has appeared on one of the pilot cards but I am not aware of the character appearing in any other official product. Given the aamount of detail in the article I have concerns about most of it being what amounts to Fan Fiction, We do not actually allow fanon on Sarna per Policy:Fanon but since the character is canon and technically you are the characters creator I would like for us to come to some kind of compromise. Would you be willing to add apocryphal information tags to the article?--Dmon (talk) 17:58, 3 January 2021 (EST)

Hi -

The bio posted here is the same one that was submitted in its entirety to Catalyst. Due to its length, it could not be included in long form on the card. I'm not aware of anyone's canon character having been moved forward into a publication of any kind, nor is that likely to happen for several years due to the thousands of submissions received and the lead time involved in creating such publications. I don't think it's fair to single my character out as "apocryphal fanon" when that hasn't been proven to be the case. What is the actual issue with the bio?

EDIT: I just looked at the publication history of the article. It has been live since October of 2020 without complaint and has iterated very little from its original form. What caused this character to suddenly be targeted?

EDIT 2: Here is the full scope of information that was submitted to Catalyst for canon inclusion. I have no idea evidence to suggest that it has yet been relegated to apocryphal fanfic. While it has been centralized and cleaned up a bit since its first submission in 2019, it has not been fundamentally changed. Please note the post date and compare to what was posted on Sarna.net. If cooberating copies of my messages to Catalyst are required, which include a link to this same post advising them that they should use the bio contained within for canon material are needed, please let me know.

https://www.crayven.net/mercnet/index.php?/topic/2-charles-edward-maxwell/Charles Maxwell (talk)

Hi,

I am not targetting your character as such, and I am aware that the article has been up since October. I have been building a List of Clan Invasion Kickstarter Characters as best I can for some time. Currently very few of the characters have actual articles, of the ones that do yours is by far the most detailed, and it has the benefit of the person behind the character is taking an active interest in the article. This presents an opportunity to me as an Admin on Sarna to try something new. The official rules of Sarna is published canon only, that means only what is published on the card, not what you submitted to CGL. hence the reason I am reaching out to you in hopes of us finding a way to keep your aditional information and stay within the rules of the wiki by making it clear where the line is between published canon and the work of the characters creator before it was edited for brevity by CGL.

I hope this clears up my intent--Dmon (talk) 05:53, 5 January 2021 (EST)

Hi Dmon -

Thanks for this additional context. I apologize if the comprehensiveness of my character's article threw off the balance as compared to the other articles. I am a professional writer and tend to fully-realize characters when I create them. Also, I've been evolving that character for 16 years through in-universe gaming, fiction, and the occasional mention in canon (for example, the LinkNet article concerning "Phoenix Technologies" from the Dark Age timeline is a canon news story about Charles' unit during the Fortress Republic era), so there is a lot to tell.

The reason for my initial concern was that I did not want to get the character banned, nor did I want to be in violation of house rules. I assumed since the article came to your attention, there must have been an issue. However, it's clearer to me what you're trying to pilot now.

I appreciate the invitation to discuss strategy with you. I'm not quite sure what the right answer is in this case. Here's why: when Catalyst contacted us for our canon character details, they asked us to comprehensively write out everything that HAD to be in the character's canon. They said that anything we didn't explicitly spell out was fair game for them to change or exclude. So by that line of thinking, the entire dossier I submitted is "canon" because the character was accepted and we have no indication that they excised or changed anything. We won't be able to know until they actually do use the character in whatever canon capacity they have planned. The pilot cards should not be considered the final word, as they aren't intended to be the entire life story of the character; they're just blurbs. I think that everyone that has a canon character (and by 'canon character, I am excluding the 'canon' video game characters, which are technically not canon) is going to be in the same boat. Thoughts?

Charles Maxwell (talk)

Since this is an issue on the convergence points of Policy:Canon and Policy:Notability I thought I'd chime in. :)

Charles Edward Maxwell is a canonical character, but only to the extent of what was published about him in canonical products - the Mercenaries of the Inner Sphere II pilot card (which I unfortunately don't have). Charles Maxwell, can you provide more detail on the LinkNet article you mentioned please. I have searched my PDF archives and found one single, apparently unconnected, mention of the name Maxwell (one Milton Maxwell on Ronel, "Sandoval Sends Tomorrow Technology Bill to Prefectural Senate" in the ComStar INN PDF) and only one mention of Phoenix Technologes ("Lyrans Strike Alkaid!" article in the 3136 LinkNet PDF) that doesn't have a tangible link to the character.

Anyways. I suggest to make a "by the book" article about the character based on the published material. The larger submission as such is not canon, as it was not published in its entirety, and I regret to point out that it is not apocryphal either because it wasn't published under a valid license at all. It's strictly Fanon. However, I think it is notable fanon insofar as it is ancillary character information provided by the creator of said character. And I understand User:Charles Maxwell's desire to put it up. I think both Sarna's mission and the BT community at large are best served if we take a lenient approach to publishing ancillary fanon on Kickstarter Character pages. It still absolutely needs to be segregated from the canonical info, but I suggest (and would personally be okay with) adding a "Fanon information" chapter at the end of the article that starts with "The following is the full extent of the character history that was submitted to CGL; keep in mind that it amounts to mere fanon except for what was actually published."

Oh, and I think Revanche had gotten a wrong idea when he protected the article as a matter of caution. I'm un-protecting it again since everybody seems to be reasonable. Frabby (talk) 08:08, 4 July 2021 (EDT)

Hi, Frabby -

Thanks for reaching out. There are three issues happening here:

1. As mentioned previously, most of us have no idea how much Catalyst used from our canon character write-ups. They got literally thousands of submissions and have not worked all of those characters into canon yet. What is posted here on Sarna is what they received from me. Until we have a definitive answer, I don't think it's fair that this article should be spammed with "apocryphal" tags or have humiliating "fanon" disclaimers added all over it. I don't see that happening to other backers and I don't feel that this article should be penalized for being comprehensive. 2. Somebody keeps editing this article to include some nonsense about Aegis Division fleeing the Inner Sphere until after the Jihad. That never happened and isn't written anywhere in canon or otherwise. I'm a professional writer who has fleshed out this character in alignment with canon over the course of 15 years. I don't know why somebody keeps injecting nonsense into the content. 3. These edit wars start erupting every quarter because the article is unprotected and gets trolled as described above. Then, I have to come in and start the appeals process over again. Can we please reprotect it in the state I last left it?

Thank you.

Charles Maxwell (talk)

I think your misconception is rooted in the canon status of the submission versus the actual publication. There is a clear definition of canon and your submission to CGL as such does not qualify as canon. Only the published pilot card is authoritative. Thus, as per Sarna's Policy:Canon and Policy:Notability, the unpublished parts of the submission are only permissible content if they‘re somehow considered relevant.

The Fanon tag isn't meant to humiliate anyone, it's mandated by our modus operandi as per the aforementioned policies.

I am not aware of other articles with similar issues, but the same rules apply everywhere. This is definitely not penalizing a specific article.

As for Aegis Division leaving for the periphery just prior to the Jihad, that‘s straigh from the card text.

Look, I can see that you're attached to and protective of this character and his backstory. But Sarna has rules. I tried to saalvage as much of the article as possible; you reverted that. Now I ask you to rework the article yourself to be compliant to our policies. Frabby (talk) 12:17, 4 July 2021 (EDT)

Hi, Frabby -

Thank you for your follow-up. Restructuring the article is one thing. Changing the character's story is something else and is the primary problem that I have with the edits being made. The card doesn't say anything about the character or his unit marooning the Inner Sphere till after the Jihad - the article as originally written provides the context behind the card text. All backers received a card with a short blurb based on what they submitted. It wasn't meant to be comprehensive.

Since my character has attracted undue negative attention because of its comprehensiveness, I have reached out to Catalyst to see if they will disclose exactly how much canon they are using from the story. If I do not get a response, I'll torpedo the article and replace it with the three or four lines of text that are on the card. I'd rather do that than have the character getting repeatedly rewritten to include things that never happened.

I do not know what their turnaround time is or even if I'll get a reply. It's also a holiday weekend in the United States. Therefore, I'd ask that you please place a moratorium on further changes to the article and leave it as I last updated it for now. I would like them to be able to reference it.

Thank you again for your time and consideration.

Charles Maxwell (talk)

If they publish something else in the future that uses more of it, you would add what's in the new story (or whatever it is) to the article, once it's cleared moratorium. But as it stands right now, the text of the single card is the extent of what you wrote becoming canon. To put it in perspective, it's like you put every detail of your Shrapnel submission onto the page rather than what the final, edited product is. ReinhardtSteiner (talk)

Another user (GreekFire) has queried the Line Developer in general term and got a definitive official answer to the question in the forum's Ask the Lead Developers section: Kickstarter Characters and Canon. That should clear it up. Frabby (talk) 01:57, 6 July 2021 (EDT)

Cool. And I see that there was no desire to wait for the word to come back regarding my specific character, so that's less cleanup I have to do. I've nuked what little remained of the article. It now says EXACTLY what appears on the card, nothing more. There will be no further revisions.

Have a nice day.Charles Maxwell (talk)

Hey Charles, I know this has turned into a rather frustrating experience already, but I have had to revert your edits from saying exactly what is said on the card. This one however is not on us or CGL, this one is on copyright law meaning we are prohibited from reproducing the text word for word.

If it makes any difference, on the brightside at least you are getting value for money on the money you spent to carve out a little spot in the BattleTech universe. Forever more your card will standout above all the others to me as THE KS character card I think of when thinking of the cards. You sir are internet (in)famous!--Dmon (talk) 23:59, 26 July 2021 (EDT)

July 2021

Mr Maxwell, I am hitting you with the ban hammer.

• Rules violations:

1. Engaging in an edit war with site admins.Policy:Disruptive editing
2. Restoring edits of text that you have already been made aware violates our Copyrights policy. Policy:Copyrights
3. Going against a ruling that has been agreed by the site Admins on your specific case. Policy:Consensus

--Dmon (talk) 18:21, 27 July 2021 (EDT)

#4 Vandalizing a Sarna article, by removing wikilinks and adding in copyrighted materials.--Revanche ^{(talk|contribs)} 18:29, 27 July 2021 (EDT)