KamikazeJohnson
02/19/14 11:12 PM
24.114.37.215
|
Johnson 'MechWorks, Inc. Announces Major Design Project!
Press Release: JMInc. announced today a truly unprecedented event, titled "Operation Upgrade".
Over the coming weeks, the notorious design firm will be releasing a series of schematics, each one an upgrade of a design from the original 3025 Technical Readout, incorporating new and recovered technology featured in the later TRO:3050. Representing the JMInc. design team's take on how these models "should" have been upgraded, and consisting primarily of new production models rather than field refits, each will include a detailed overview outlining the designer's thoughts on the redesign.
Stay tuned to see all your old favourites, from Locust to Atlas, given the JMInc. treatment!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/19/14 11:33 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Sounds like an interesting set of mechs coming our way.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 12:43 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Sounds like an interesting set of mechs coming our way.
That's the plan. I hope to see a lot of discussion on these. Maybe even the occasional "WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 12:58 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Locust LCT-JM
Mass: 20 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 3,150,400 C-Bills
Battle Value: 587
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 220 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 118.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 183.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Medium Lasers
4 Machine Guns
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 33 points 1.00
Internal Locations: 3 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 220 5.00
Walking MP: 11
Running MP: 17
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 62 3.50
Armor Locations: 3 LT, 4 RT, 3 LA, 4 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 6
Center Torso 6 10
Center Torso (rear) 2
L/R Torso 5 8
L/R Torso (rear) 2
L/R Arm 3 4
L/R Leg 4 8
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Machine Guns RA 0 2 1.00
2 Machine Guns LA 0 2 1.00
Medium Laser CT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
@MG (1/2) (100) CT - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 6
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 2 Points: 6
11 2 1 0 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
The Locust always struck me as more of a "Raider" than a scout, as its lack of
jump jets hinder its ability to operate in difficult terrain. While FA$A
seemed to have Elementals in mind when doing most of their TRO:3050 upgrades, I
designed mine with a "Pre-Clan" mentality.
I went with an XL Engine mainly because a Locust shouldn't be taking much fire
if the pilot is doing his job right, and because even greater speed would be
the best way to increase its survivability. Ferro Fibrous saved a half ton at
the cost of only 2 points of armour; Endo Steel saved another ton, and
downgrading to smaller MG Ammo bin saved another half.
Speed increased by 3 Walking MP, and I simply doubled the weaponry. One of the
best uses for a Locust has always been hunting other Light 'Mechs and dealing
with enemy Infantry, and this version is well equipped for that.
Comments and criticisms welcome.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
02/21/14 02:10 AM
24.30.128.72
|
I am kinda surprised you didn't use ermls.
I can see trying to keep the cost down, but a scout mech or even a raider would benefit from advanced electronics like ecm or a probe.
there was one upgrade that had small lasers instead of the mgs. Granted, it didn't have the second medium laser. This would eliminate ammo boom while allowing it to stay in the field longer. But running low on ammo might be a good thing. Without that worry you might stay out too long.
maybe drop a speed point and get some more armor, but that's iffy.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 02:34 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
I am kinda surprised you didn't use ermls.
I'm sticking with the TRO:3050 tech; IS didn't have ERML in that one, just Pulse Lasers and ERLL. If I was upgrading to 3055, I would definitely have used them.
Quote:
I can see trying to keep the cost down, but a scout mech or even a raider would benefit from advanced electronics like ecm or a probe.
Realistically, any 'Mech benefits from ECM, but having ECM on every 'Mech gets you diminishing returns. I chose to pass on ECM for this one and focus on speed and firepower.
Quote:
there was one upgrade that had small lasers instead of the mgs. Granted, it didn't have the second medium laser. This would eliminate ammo boom while allowing it to stay in the field longer. But running low on ammo might be a good thing. Without that worry you might stay out too long.
Never really liked the SL upgrade for a couple reasons. First, without MGs, it didn't really feel like a Locust to me. Second, unless there's a rule I can't find, SLs don't do much against Conventional Infantry, which is kinda where I was going with this. Get in, devastate the enemy's Infantry, and get out. I'd considered going with 4xSL and and max armour, but I prefer the feel of the MGs on a Locust.
Quote:
maybe drop a speed point and get some more armor, but that's iffy.
It can only carry an extra 7 points of armour, which would be 3 in the H, 2 on each leg. Thought about maxing it, but not only would that waste 2 points (I hate inefficiency), it didn't seem the best use of the 1/2 ton.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/21/14 06:36 AM
172.56.16.238
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I have to say you stayed with the standard Locust.
I would have dropped the four MGs for two SPL and another half ton of armor. I would up grade the heat sinks to doubles. Not because of the weapon load but because of the XL engine. That 10 heat engine crit can hurt a lot when you only have 10 heat sinks.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/21/14 07:47 AM
24.30.128.72
|
Hadn't thought about the ermls and the year you were using.
The mgs are a good thing, since I agree with the feeling of the mech. It was to take out infantry quickly.
The ecm thought was being a raider behind the lines not being able to be found would draw off even more units to find it, but I do agree that if everything has ecm, then it becomes more of a snipe hunt then an actual war game.
One corner that might be cut is the lower arm actuator. I don't think the original locust had it since it had no hands. I know they didn't pull them out because the rules for flipping arms and such hadn't been made yet.
And with the extra speed, it should be able to get out before much can be brought against it. Only issue is running into things. But that shouldn't be that big of a problem. Just watch for spiders.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 01:10 PM
24.114.40.200
|
Quote:
I have to say you stayed with the standard Locust.
I would have dropped the four MGs for two SPL and another half ton of armor. I would up grade the heat sinks to doubles. Not because of the weapon load but because of the XL engine. That 10 heat engine crit can hurt a lot when you only have 10 heat sinks.
I keep hearing about SLs and SPLs being "anti-Infantry" weapons, but as far as I can tell, according to Total Warfare, either will do only 2 dmg to conventional Infantry. Am I missing something?
Secondly, sticking with the MGs is, to me, sticking with the spirit of the original, i.e A Locust has MGs, so my upgrade has MGs. Plus I like MGs lol.
I should have used DHS...an earlier attempt was one step slower and didn't have enough crit space for Doubles. This one does. I'll make sure I mofify that in my files.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
02/21/14 01:46 PM
72.214.204.166
|
Thought SPLs work like burst fire.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 02:45 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Thought SPLs work like burst fire.
Found it. The chart is on TW p.310. Small and Micro Pulse Lasers are treated as Burst-Fire with a damage vs. Conventional Infantry of 2D6. So equal in dmg to MGs, better accuracy, more dmg vs. non-Infantry, and no ammo, but they produce heat and weigh twice as much.
With DHS equipped, the heat output is still irrelevant on this design, and with the -2 modifier, the SPLs would probably outperform twice as many MGs. I'd probably go that way if I was building from scratch, just like I'd drop the Lower Arm Actuators as well. Could be considered a "variant" or "modification" of my production model...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Edited by KamikazeJohnson (02/21/14 02:45 PM)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 05:46 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Stinger STG-JM
Mass: 20 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3049
Cost: 1,919,040 C-Bills
Battle Value: 388
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 120 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
2 Machine Guns
1 Beagle Active Probe
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 33 points 1.00
Internal Locations: 2 LT, 4 RT, 4 LA, 4 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 120 4.00
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT 3.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 53 3.00
Armor Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 4
Center Torso 6 7
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 5 6
L/R Torso (rear) 2
L/R Arm 3 5
L/R Leg 4 6
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Machine Gun RA 0 1 0.50
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Machine Gun LA 0 1 0.50
Beagle Active Probe LT 0 2 1.50
@MG (1/2) (100) CT - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 2 Points: 4
6j 1 1 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: PRB, RCN, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES
The Stinger always seemed like an "unnecessary" design to me: same weaponry as the Locust without the speed or armour; same mobility as the Wasp without the range of the SRM. Unless you intended to intercept Infantry by jumping, there seemed n real reason to take a Stinger over the other 20-tonners.
I decided to go a different direction with the Stinger than I did with the Wasp and Locust. Keep the Standard Fusion Engine so it can survive a few crippling hits (a PPC to the LT can really ruin your day if you're piloting an XL-equipped 20-tonner), Endo Steel to save a ton and reduce the MG Ammo supply for another 1/2 ton. The tonnage saved is just enough to mount some electronics. My base design uses a Beagle Probe for more effective Recon, but the unit can be easily traded for a Guardian ECM Suite if desired.
Finally, upgrading to Ferro-Fibrous Armour increases protection by the equivalent of an additional 1/2 ton.
Not a powerful upgrade by any means, and it still really needs to keep its head down, but perhaps a little more useful than the original.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/21/14 05:49 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Looking really good!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 06:01 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Rounding out the 20-Tonners with one last submission for today.
Wasp WSP-JM
Mass: 20 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3049
Cost: 2,300,040 C-Bills
Battle Value: 415
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 120 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Medium Laser
1 SRM-2
1 Flamer
1 TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 33 points 1.00
Internal Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 3 RA, 1 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 120 2.00
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL 3.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 64 4.00
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 6
Center Torso 6 8
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 5 8
L/R Torso (rear) 2
L/R Arm 3 6
L/R Leg 4 7
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Flamer LA 3 1 1.00
TAG HD 0 1 1.00
SRM-2 LL 2 1 1.00
@SRM-2 (50) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 10
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 2 Points: 4
6j 1 1 0 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: TAG, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES
The Wasp was a tough one for me; the hard part was deciding what path to take.
I finally decided, with the Locust upgraded as a Lightning Raider, and the
Stinger as a Scout, I'd do the Wasp as a "Mischief Maker".
Since its new role isn't a Combat role, I went with an XL Engine and Endo Steel
to save maximum tonnage. I decided to pass on the natural upgrade to the
Streak SRM, feeling that the best use of the Wasp's SRM would be Inferno Ammo.
Instead, I added a ton of armour, and went with a TAG for offence and a Flamer
to cause behind-the-lines mayhem.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Retry
02/21/14 06:07 PM
67.239.109.174
|
I thought XLEs and Endo Steel were the equipment you use in combat roles specifically.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 06:14 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
I thought XLEs and Endo Steel were the equipment you use in combat roles specifically.
Endo Steel goes on anything with enough crit space. XL Engine depends on the design. The Stinger for example doesn't really have the speed to survive long in a major battle, and it certainly doesn't have the armour, so it's best off without the XL. This Wasp, on the other hand, doesn't have to worry about the vulnerability associated with the XL Engine if it generally avoids combat.
Heavier 'Mechs it's different, as the extra firepower they can carry with the weight saved is often enough to justiy the risk,
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Retry
02/21/14 07:07 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Why not use the XL engine to speed up the stinger so it does have the speed to survive?
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Karagin
02/21/14 07:16 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Or you could go with TSM and MASC.....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/21/14 07:43 PM
24.114.40.65
|
Quote:
Why not use the XL engine to speed up the stinger so it does have the speed to survive?
Because the Stinger doesn't deserve an XL Engine.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
02/22/14 01:33 AM
24.30.128.72
|
The advantage of the stinger over the locust would be the jets. Not a big one, but in some terrain it would outperform the locust. I have disliked the stinger because I did not like slower and less armored then the locust. The wasp was ok, but would have preferred the locust for the speed.
Not using the xl in the stinger but using it in the wasp is wierd. You could have upgraded the stinger similar to the wasp. Cost is the issue for both of them since they tend to crumple when hit by things like a single large laser.
Honestly, why even bother with the stinger? The endosteel and ferrous fiber armor isn't worth putting on the mech.
Using small lasers was more for anti mech then anti infantry. I know alot of people that only use infantry to take cities to control the populations. They would not even think of using them in a battle outside of a city.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 02:43 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
The advantage of the stinger over the locust would be the jets. Not a big one, but in some terrain it would outperform the locust. I have disliked the stinger because I did not like slower and less armored then the locust. The wasp was ok, but would have preferred the locust for the speed.
That's my issue with the Stinger as well. Depending on the mission it's almost always outperformed by either the Locust or the Wasp, if not both.
Quote:
Not using the xl in the stinger but using it in the wasp is weird. You could have upgraded the stinger similar to the wasp. Cost is the issue for both of them since they tend to crumple when hit by things like a single large laser.
...The endosteel and ferrous fiber armor isn't worth putting on the mech.
Babbling about survivability is a bit of a misdirection...mostly I didn't want to just go about slapping ES, FF, and XL Engine on everything, so I chose the Stinger to get shortchanged. Although I feel I did better than the official TRO:3050 version, which trades the MGs for a Flamer and AMS. If I don't change anything else, XL Engine would require ditching the FF, so it would save me 1.5 tons. 1 ton will upgrade speed and jump range each by 1, leaving 1/2 ton for...something. A third MG, a SL, or maybe just more armour. Could be interesting, since only the Jenner and Assassin IIRC move 7/11, and the Jenner doesn't have full jump range.
Quote:
Honestly, why even bother with the stinger?
Generally my sentiment.
Quote:
Using small lasers was more for anti mech then anti infantry. I know alot of people that only use infantry to take cities to control the populations. They would not even think of using them in a battle outside of a city.
Holding on to the MGs isn't a value judgment (as much as I love MGs), it's more my philosophy for doing my upgrade series, which is to stick with the spirit of the original design. So for the most part, I'll add stuff, or upgrade a weapon to a better version, but I'll rarely be replacing a weapon with something different, not even if it just makes sense.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 04:06 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Commando COM-JM
Mass: 25 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 3,335,208 C-Bills
Battle Value: 654
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 175 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 75.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 118.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 SRM-6 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 SRM-4 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 Medium Laser
2 Small Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 43 points 1.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 LT, 2 RT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 175 3.50
Walking MP: 7
Running MP: 11
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 2 RT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 71 4.00
Armor Locations: 4 LT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 3 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 6
Center Torso 8 11
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 6 8
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 4 6
L/R Leg 6 8
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SRM-6 RA 4 2 3.00
Artemis IV FCS RA - 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Small Laser RT 1 1 0.50
Small Laser LT 1 1 0.50
SRM-4 CT 3 1 2.00
Artemis IV FCS CT - 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (25) RT - 1 1.00
@SRM-6 (15) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 2 Points: 7
7 3 3 0 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
The Commando and the Jenner always struck me as the Light 'Mechs designed to
destroy other Light 'Mechs. As such, I focussed on raw firepower by adding
Artemis IV to both missile launchers and augmenting with a Small Laser in each
Side Torso. Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous saved tonnage and increased armour
coverage by a bit, and XL Engine allowed a slight speed increase.
NOTE: The original FA$A upgrade in the TRO:3050 places the Artemis IV for the
SRM 6 in the Head. Since SSW doesn't allow that, I was forced to swap the
locations of the SRMs. If playing by 4th Ed. rules, the SRM 6 should be kept in
the CT, as with the original Commando.
(I suspect the CT-H exception was originally+ included specifically to allow the Commando to use Artemis. Just sayin')
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
02/22/14 04:30 PM
70.118.139.48
|
The rules changed to now the ARTIV has to be with launcher, so that old version of the original TRO3050 is no longer usable in a tournament game ( given that 99% of the BT players don't play in tournaments...) so it's up to the players for that one.
I do like your use of the ARTIV for the SRM4.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 05:03 PM
24.30.128.72
|
wow. You increased the speed of the mech. That's a bonus.
One set of suggestions would be the small lasers. Maybe swap them for another medium laser, or maybe a pair flamers, or some electronics.
Another possible would be slow the mech a little and add jump jets. Yeah, that isn't keeping with the original, but then again, upgrades aren't always little ones.
Yeah, I think scout mechs should be the electronic warfare mechs. It is what a scout should be doing. The larger mechs have their own strengths.
Was gonna suggest making the 4 pack into a 6 pack, but thats the javelins thing.
One more suggestion. Start a new thread with each mech. It might avoid some cross conversations as someone just joining in might say something about a previous mech, and confuse it with the latest one.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 05:07 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Javelin JVN-JM
Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 4,073,940 C-Bills
Battle Value: 780
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 SRM-6 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 Medium Laser
2 Streak SRM-2s
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 51 points 1.50
Internal Locations: 7 LA, 7 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 180 3.50
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 3.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 2 RT
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 104 6.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 7 10
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 5 10
L/R Leg 7 14
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Streak SRM-2s RT 4 2 3.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
SRM-6 LT 4 2 3.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 1 1.00
@SRM-6 (15) LT - 1 1.00
@Streak SRM-2 (50) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 3
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 8
6j 3 3 0 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESING NOTES:
I was never really all that fond of the Javelin, probably because of its
complete lack of energy weapons.
FA$A almost completely ignored this one, with the sole modification being
replacement of one of the SRM 6s with a pair of Streak SRM 2s, which is
slightly more heat efficient, averages the same damage, but conserves some
ammo, assuming the Javelin makes it out alive.
Instead of a cheap-@$$ field refit, I freed up tonnage with Endo Steel and,
after some thought, XL Engine as well. Artemis IV increased the accuracy of
the SRM racks by an average of 1 missile per hit, CASE protected the ammo (ok,
for strictly game-play purposes, CASE with an IS XL Engine is useless, as
destruction of a side torso takes the 'Mech out of the game, but there are
campaign/role-playing reasons for including it: it saves more of the 'Mech for
repair/salvage, and it saves the pilot's life.) I strayed lightly from my
"keep the spirit" philosophy by moving all the ammo to the Left Torso, thus
requiring CASE on one side only.
After taking a few minutes to study the FA$A upgrade and think about the
advantages trade-offs between the SRM 6 and the Streak-2 pair, I decided to
swap out one of the launchers anyway. The decrease in average dmg vs the
Artemis-equipped SRM 6 is slight, but it gives the Javelin 10 more shots per
rack plus conserves ammo on misses. The kicker though was being able to
replace the Artemis system on the one launcher with a Medium Laser, which
addresses my old reservation with the design. Finally, DHS were used to deal
with the increased heat output, and armour coverage was increased to maximum.
The final result looks almost like a Commando in terms of weapons, but jump
capability and much heavier armour make it quite a bit different in practical
terms.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 05:12 PM
24.30.128.72
|
I agree that the lack of any energy weapon is a bad idea for a mech.
Though I do wonder that having a third streak 2 pack might make it a little better on the offensive.
Maybe pull a half ton of armor and the laser for it.
I do think the laser is the way to go.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 05:33 PM
50.72.218.68
|
As I said in the description, the role I saw for the Commando was hunting Wasps and Stingers, possibly dealing with light vehicles, rather than scouting. Don't worry, I'll be pulling out the electronics more regularly once I get into the 30-40 ton range, since they'll have a little more tonnage available.
Small lasers...using MLs every time I have a free ton gets stale and repetitive, so I chose to mix it up a bit. Although a SPL for anti-infantry instead of the SL pair could have been a good alternative.
Also, check out the heat...with FF armour I didn't have enough crit space to switch to DHS, so it already runs a bit hot.
Still, a second ML or a SPL instead of the SLs is definitely workable.
Re: starting a new thread: avoiding cross-confusion is why I change the subject line with each 'Mech submission. I like keeping the entire project together rather than spreading it over several pages. If it gets cumbersome, I'll ask Cray to split the threads and start doing it that way. I might start a new thread anyway for the Medium 'Mechs.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
02/22/14 05:38 PM
70.118.139.48
|
I like this re-working of the Javelin. It covers a lot of ground and keeps things in the light of the original.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 05:40 PM
24.30.128.72
|
Well the pilot can avoid firing a weapon or 3 to deal with the heat.
I have yet to have every streak srm on a unit lock in one round. But I can sympathize with the heat issue. I can very well see this mech out of 6 packs before going thru half the 2 packs of ammo.
I also agree that having extra tonnage and the use of the ml gets old, but it is a useful weapon. I see where the use of it makes everything look like a clone with one different weapon.
The spl is good for some things, though you could use flamers as well. Good for herding hot mechs away from areas that you torch. Good against infantry as well. I dislike them, but they are useful. Even heating up a mech works.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 06:08 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Spider SDR-JM
Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 5,917,340 C-Bills
Battle Value: 780
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 240 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 86.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 129.6 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 240 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
2 Medium Lasers
1 Beagle Active Probe
1 Guardian ECM Suite
1 TAG
1 C3 Computer (Slave)
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 51 points 1.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 RT, 4 LA, 4 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 240 6.00
Walking MP: 8
Running MP: 12
Jumping MP: 8 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT 4.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 88 5.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 13
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 7 11
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 5 7
L/R Leg 7 10
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Beagle Active Probe RT 0 2 1.50
Guardian ECM Suite RT 0 2 1.50
TAG LT 0 1 1.00
C3 Computer (Slave) LT 0 1 1.00
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 8
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 8
8j 1 1 0 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: PRB, RCN, ECM, TAG, C3S, ENE, MHQ1, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
Ahhh...the Spider, one of the most underrated 'Mechs by new players. The
official upgrade is cringe-worthy, using Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous in order
to replace both MLs with MPLs. I love how the TRO description goes on and on
about the "substantial increase in firepower" lol. Double the weight, higher
heat, and crappy range in exchange for 1 more point of damage. Not an upgrade
in my book.
Anyway, with almost 40% of the total tonnage devoted to engine, the XL was a
no-brainer. Endo Steel for a total of 7 tons saved. What did I do with that
bounty? TOYS!!!
Active Probe, ECM, TAG, and a C3 Slave to make this thing a nightmare to have
behind your lines. Or in the middle of things. With the speed to avoid most
damage, and 2 additional tons of armour to survive a few good hits, it can hang
around in the middle of a firefight for a while.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 06:16 PM
24.30.128.72
|
What is the range of a c3? can artillery use a c3? This is a dangerous mech to have behind the lines.
The added armor is nice as well. A few people that I have seen using the original version of this mech were chargers. They would only use it for charges or dfa.
This version definately makes actually using it for shooting worth it. The charge is good too, but not the main offensive tool anymore.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 06:24 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Charge/DFA is good if you have a substantial Piloting Skill advantage over your target, otherwise the To-Hit number is just too high unless you're in a situation that calls for a "Hail Mary" (or a successful charge will push his 100-tonner over a 4-level cliff...).
A lot of inexperienced players underestimate just how much damage (and aggravation) a Spider can cause with repeated back hits, kicks, and being so hard to hit. The toys just make it that much more dangerous...just pick a spot and "call down the thunder".
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 06:26 PM
50.72.218.68
|
As for your original question, I don't think the C3 itself has a range, but its effect is dependent on the range of the weapons being targeted through the link. I believe it is for direct-fire only, so no Artillery...that's what the TAG is for.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 06:30 PM
24.30.128.72
|
That would be something I would like to know. I believe they used lrms in indirect fire mode with the c3, but that might not have been canon. Still, a company of alacorn tanks on a hill with a spider feeding them information. The thought just sends chills down my spine.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 06:32 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Total Warfare p.131-133 covers C3 networks.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
02/22/14 06:37 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Nice job with the Spider, it now has a return to it's role of a scout mech and actually bring down a world of hurt on what ever it runs into.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 06:43 PM
24.30.128.72
|
The only thing that might be questionable on the upgrade is the c3.
Maybe pulling it for a third laser would be a suggestion.
Or an anti infantry weapon(s).
Just need to make sure it has the master to be worth it.
I agree. It is a nice job with the upgrade.
Edited by ghostrider (02/22/14 06:45 PM)
|
Karagin
02/22/14 06:52 PM
70.118.139.48
|
The C3 works, it allows the mech to work with other DCMS mechs and vehicles and allows them to use the mech more in front line fighting as well as behind the lines raiding.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 06:58 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
The C3 works, it allows the mech to work with other DCMS mechs and vehicles and allows them to use the mech more in front line fighting as well as behind the lines raiding.
That's one thing I'm not paying attention to with my upgrades is the whole "Which faction makes what technologies" so the occasional odd combination might crop up here and there.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
02/22/14 08:02 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Fair enough, not like TPTB ever have worried about that at all, with TRO3055 being a good example of that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/22/14 09:43 PM
24.30.128.72
|
The spider is a free worlds league mech if I remember who builds them. It wasn't a dig on the design when I thought about removing it. Though I guess if you are following the time line, it might be.
It was just a suggestion to remove it for more firepower or anti infantry. I had forgotten about the time period had certain equipment for certain political entities.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/22/14 10:59 PM
24.114.41.109
|
Quote:
The spider is a free worlds league mech if I remember who builds them. It wasn't a dig on the design when I thought about removing it. Though I guess if you are following the time line, it might be.
It was just a suggestion to remove it for more firepower or anti infantry. I had forgotten about the time period had certain equipment for certain political entities.
Dig away, I can take it ;-)
As a variant, I'd suggest removing the TAG and C3 (either or both) simply because not all forces will be using Artillery or C3 networks. Replace either or both with MLs. Note that even with 4 MLs, you can fire all, use full jump range, and still not overheat. The Probe and ECM of course are always useful.
Now the question is, how to avoid cloning this when I do the Ostscout lol.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 03:36 AM
24.30.128.72
|
the ostscout update has no weapons on it. I thought that was completely stupid when I seen that in the tro.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/14 06:40 AM
172.56.39.55
|
Everyone and there brother likes putting a 3c slave in there mechs but no one seems to want to take up the weight of a 3c master and with out a master the entire 3c network is worthless.
Why not strip out everything put in a 3c master and the weight that is left over put in Medium Lasers.
With the speed of this mech you can run in and target enemy units with the 3c for the rest of the lance that has long range weapons to hit what the 3c master lights up to be shot at
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Maurer
02/23/14 08:34 AM
142.11.67.185
|
A lot of these designs are pretty close to how I redesigned the 3050 mechs.
As for the Spider, I think it would be closer to the spirit of the mech if the beagle probe is dropped and maybe the TAG or C3 slave depending on lance make up for an additional half ton of armor and MASC which fits in better with the speed/ECM/tag combo - Rush in, disrupted sensors, Tag a target for artillery or Spot for C3 network, and then get out.
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier
|
Karagin
02/23/14 11:31 AM
70.118.139.48
|
The C3 Master is 5 tons, that is a lot of weight taken by computer network system, lot of space too. If you can find away to place in mechs under 80 tons then I say go for it...it would be 100% different.
As for the Ostscout with no weapons isn't stupid, it is a smart mans mech, in that you need to know what a recon unit is there for, it's not fight, it's to scout, and report back what it finds and then run like hell if spotted or attacked. Weapons tend to get folks into fights they can't win. Seen far to many LTs and CPT think their Bradelys are tanks and end up losing their engagements because they fight like they are in tanks. Mechs like the Ostscout are not there to fight they are there to scout.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/14 02:40 PM
172.56.33.62
|
Quote:
Seen far to many LTs and CPT think their Bradelys are tanks and end up losing their engagements because they fight like they are in tanks.
But they are called Bradely Fighting Vehicles, so they must be able to take a tank head on and easily win! LOL
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 03:00 PM
24.30.128.72
|
I think the whole role of scout mechs means scouting. Having the electronics to do so it very important.
I don't know why, but I'm not a masc fan. Probably because I've had it lock on me consistantly on rolls of 3+. Bad luck, but after a while you learn not to us it.
The speed with the jets means this upgrade should be able to get out of harms way pretty quickly, depending on terrain. In clear open terrain, then some of the mech out there would be issues. I don't see the masc changing that.
Fighting vehicle and tank aren't the same thing. A tank can afford to stop and fight, while the bradley needs to keep moving. It can take on a tank, but not with the tactics of a tank.
Good example is a panther or commando in battletech. They can take on larger units, and mosts think they can take down a 50+ ton mech. Now it is possible, but not doing the stand and fight routine. They MUST run and use terrain.
Problem with having no weapons means you are dead when you run into something that can keep up with you and fire. Granted having a weapon may not change this anyways. Forcing a recon pilot to run should be disciplinary, not unit forced.
|
Retry
02/23/14 03:03 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Actually the Panther or Commando would have a decent enough chance sitting still if, for example, they hull down by a hill in a heavy woods.
I wouldn't recommend doing so for extended periods of time, but it is a possibility that can be used.
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 03:17 PM
24.30.128.72
|
As I said, it is possible. Most try to remain stationary and fire. They need to run and use the terrain and such.
As with most combat, the terrain would decide how well that will work. If your in a very sparsely woods area, hulling down isn't an option. Granted running isn't really an option for the panther because most mechs under 80 tons are as fast as it is.
Point I was trying to make is units have certain ways they need to be used. Alot of people ignore that and use them the way that gets them killed quickly. Most people hate light mechs because they die so quickly. Not using their speed to full effect, or trying to flank the atlas to stay out of the firing arcs of the instant death weapon, they don't last long. That may be why people love using the assault mechs, and don't bother with the lighter ones. I know I had fallen into this line of thought. Might be why I love the ac 20.
Using just light mechs in a battle tends to be a boring fight. Using them like they should be, to hits make it hard to score a hit.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/14 04:28 PM
172.56.33.62
|
I have never liked ACs. They are way to heavy.
AC-20 weight 14 tons
7 heat sinks 7 tons
3 tons ammo 3 tons
Total 24 tons for a large 20 point hole in the armor, if you can hit.
Medium laser 1 ton
3 Heat sinks 3 tons
Total 4 tons, for the same 24 tons you can have six medium lasers. Granted you cant make one big hole in the armor like a AC-20 but your not worried about ammo so you can try for that 1 in 36 chance hit and with six lasers that gives you six chances to at least do some kind of damage.
The same goes for the AC-10 and the large laser.
Or the AC-5 and the PPC.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
02/23/14 04:37 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Everyone generally agrees that ACs suck on mechs and are even sub par on vehicles.
With them you must exploit alternate munitions and the supposed availability of autocannons.
|
Karagin
02/23/14 05:00 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Trying to picture a mech going hull down...yeah not seeing it happen. Then again I don't see mechs doing kungfu or flying kicks either.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
02/23/14 05:14 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Hulling down is a tac ops rule. You use hills as additional cover.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/23/14 05:18 PM
24.114.41.30
|
They have their uses, although there's usually a more efficient option.
Expect to see quite a few in my upgrade series...I'll see if I can make them useful.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/14 05:25 PM
172.56.33.62
|
Yes at a very high cost. You use punch hit table to see where the hit fell. Instead of a 1/36 chance of you having your head hit you have a 1/6 chance of your head being hit. I personally don't think the risk is worth it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 06:08 PM
24.30.128.72
|
The autocannons are good because of low heat for the punch. I agree they are a little heavier then they should be. On vehicles, they don't require heat sinks.
I like them because one hit means several things. Piloting roll for 20+ points. More then a few times, the mech has fallen doing even more damage.
Another is alot of areas hit by the 20 means internals on that shot. More then a few ammo booms followed a single hit.
As for running an number game, well any time you roll multiple times for something you are bound to have a better chance of doing it. Technically your numbers game would mean lots of mech running around with small lasers or mgs. With that you are more likely to score a few head hits or torso crits. Or maybe a load of srm 2s for range.
I can't say autocannons are the best. All weapons have problems. I like the 20's and can't explain why.
Now using lasers you need 4 for the 20 points of damage. All have to hit to begin with. yes miss with the 20 and your screwed. Now with that you require 12 heat sinks. Even with the heat sinks it is still lighter to use the 4 mls. Upgrading to the er style, you gain range as well as damage.
So there are some disadvantages of using cannons. Thing is, most cannons are easier to build then even a medium laser. You don't need alot of tech for the cannons.
|
Karagin
02/23/14 06:11 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Quote:
Hulling down is a tac ops rule. You use hills as additional cover.
Retry I know what it is and how it works, just not seeing mechs using it all that well given how tall they are. Call it a more realistic look at things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/24/14 10:31 PM
50.72.218.68
|
The one no one has been waiting for...
UrbanMech UM-JM
Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 2,229,500 C-Bills
Battle Value: 681
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 60 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 32.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 60 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous w/ CASE
Armament:
1 LB 10-X AC
1 Medium Laser
1 Small Pulse Laser
1 Guardian ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 51 points 1.50
Internal Locations: 4 LT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 3 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 60 1.50
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 2 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT 1.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL
Gyro: Standard 1.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 105 6.00
Armor Locations: 6 LT, 2 RT, 5 LA, 1 RA
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 12
Center Torso (rear) 8
L/R Torso 7 10
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 5 10
L/R Leg 7 14
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LB 10-X AC RA 2 6 11.00
Small Pulse Laser LA 2 1 1.00
Guardian ECM Suite RT 0 2 1.50
Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
@LB 10-X (Cluster) (10) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 1
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 7
2j 2 2 1 0 1 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: ECM, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, FLK 1/1/1
DESIGN NOTES:
Usually when people talk about modifying R2D2, the first thing that comes up is
dropping the AC for a PPC. However, that would be a violation of the spirit of
the original design: if it doesn't have an Autocannon, it's not an UrbanMech.
The obvious upgrade is to replace the AC/10 with an LB-10X, both improving
performance and freeing up a ton. The official 3050 version adds a SPL and calls it
done, but there's more that can be done.
Endo Steel saves 1.5 tons; dropping the mysterious 11th Heat Sink saves
another. Ferro Fibrous Armour maximizes protection at no extra cost.
CASE protects the ammo, providing a dramatic increase in the 'Mech's
survivability. Upgrade the Small Laser to an SPL for Anti-Infantry. A
Head-mounted Medium Laser allows the 'Mech to keep fighting even after the AC
is damaged or runs out of ammo. Finally, a Guardian ECM Suite to mess with
enemy sensors and electronics, an essential item to protect hidden friendly Vehicles and Infantry.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Karagin
02/24/14 10:40 PM
70.118.139.48
|
What about dual UAC5s?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Retry
02/24/14 11:00 PM
72.214.204.166
|
Would CASE really dramatically increase survivability? If that ammo bin is hit you will not live to last many more hits at all.
|
Karagin
02/24/14 11:17 PM
70.118.139.48
|
CASE can't hurt and it's a big improvement in protecting the mech for salvage.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/24/14 11:48 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Would CASE really dramatically increase survivability? If that ammo bin is hit you will not live to last many more hits at all.
In my experience, ammo explosion is the most common way an UrbanMech exits a battle. CASE allows it to take that hit and stand another round or two, or (attempt to) withdraw.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/24/14 11:50 PM
24.30.128.72
|
I don't know about anyone else, but a ppc armed mech that isn't called an urbanmech is fine by me.
The ecm definately is a big help for this mech. Might allow a couple more shots before being used as a pot hole filler.
The spl is heavier but no ammo booms from mgs.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 12:44 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Valkyrie VLK-JM
Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 4,063,020 C-Bills
Battle Value: 859
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97.2 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 LRM-15 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 51 points 1.50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 2 LT, 3 RT, 4 LA, 3 RA
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 180 3.50
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 5 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 2.50
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 96 6.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 8
Center Torso 10 14
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 7 12
L/R Torso (rear) 2
L/R Arm 5 9
L/R Leg 7 12
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
LRM-15 LT 5 3 7.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 1 1.00
@LRM-15 (Artemis) (16) RT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 6
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 9
6/3j 2 2 2 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 1
DESIGN NOTES:
Never really been a big an of the Valkyrie...mostly because I don't like the
LRM 10. Still, it's mobility gives it some value over a similarly-equipped
Vehicle, so it's worth having overall.
The official upgrade actually wasn't horrible...they removed the 11th Heat
Sink, which was unnecessary unless you fired both the LRM and ML at the same
time (rare) while Jumping. Artemis IV is a decent enhancement for the LRM.
Still mystified by how many times FA$A replaced MLs with a MPLs and called it
an "upgrade". For the tonnage, I'd rather have a second ML.
From the start, I felt the Valkyrie was a good candidate for an XL Engine. The
'Mech's primarily long-range role means the expensive engine would rarely be
exposed to a lot of enemy fire, and by increasing the speed a notch improved
bth the safety of the engine and the Valkyrie's ability to manoever to a good
firing location.
CASE was added to protect the pilot and preserve most of the 'Mech in the event
of an ammo explosion, and with the use of Endo Steel, I was left with 3 tons.
My first thought was to max the armour, add a 6th Jump Jet, and throw on some
more short-range backup weapons, but on second thought I upgraded the LRM 10 (w
Artemis) to a larger rack, and added a second ton of ammo. Since I had enough
available crit space, I upgraded to DHS "just in case".
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 01:00 AM
24.30.128.72
|
If I recall the valkyrie was supposed to be a davion mech made to hunt panthers of the combine.
I do agree it is rare to fire both weapons.
It is interesting you bumped the lrm 10 up to a 15 with artemis.
2 tons of ammo was a good idea as well.
Now for the big question. Why go with double heat sinks if this is the case?
I could see it if you increased the number of mls or something like it.
It is nice to have a cold mech.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 01:02 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Lol...only 1 comment on this one...looks like I'm not the only one who really doesn't care about the Stinger!
Then again, there was a bit of a discussion in the WASP section regarding my decision not to go XL...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 01:05 AM
24.30.128.72
|
you put up the next one before anyone could comment on them? kinda why I said to break them up.
I really don't think most people were impressed with the stinger at all. Locust was faster, though no jets, and the wasp has better ranged firepower. The stinger was at best an infantry fighter. It seemed like a weaker clone of the wasp.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 01:08 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
you put up the next one before anyone could comment on them?
What can I say, I'm in a hurry to get the Lights posted and done so I can get to the "interesting" upgrades 
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 01:28 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
If I recall the valkyrie was supposed to be a davion mech made to hunt panthers of the combine.
I do agree it is rare to fire both weapons.
It is interesting you bumped the lrm 10 up to a 15 with artemis.
2 tons of ammo was a good idea as well.
Now for the big question. Why go with double heat sinks if this is the case?
I could see it if you increased the number of mls or something like it.
It is nice to have a cold mech.
I went with DHS because there was really no reason not to. The extra heat dissipation is one benefit, the other is the 6 additional "safe" crits...with thr XL Engine and the additional ammo, it's nice to reduce the odds of a critical hit being devastating.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 01:35 AM
24.30.128.72
|
theres a use for atns super tanks. Holding the companys master c3 computers. Each lance needs a masterc3 while the company needs 2 masters c3. I guess that could be an excuse for them.
Without using c3 in the whole company, having a mech that is packed with the required masters is not worth having.
Now there is a question. Can a c3 system work with just a lance tied together?
If you can use just a lance, then coming up with a variant that carries the master but arm it with long range weapons would be a thought.
Don't think I'm pushing for you do make one. It is just a thought.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 01:49 AM
50.72.218.68
|
As long as you have at least 2 C3-equipped units, one of them with a Master, you can have a C3 network. And don't worry, I'm going to have at least one design that uses a C3 Master, either as a main or as a variant.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 01:58 AM
24.30.128.72
|
The only reason I was asking about the double heat sinks was maybe lowering the price of the unit.
There is nothing wrong with a cold mech.
One thought would be keep the lrm 10, and add a few lasers. But that could be a variant.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 02:04 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
The only reason I was asking about the double heat sinks was maybe lowering the price of the unit.
There is nothing wrong with a cold mech.
One thought would be keep the lrm 10, and add a few lasers. But that could be a variant.
That was my original thought...add a couple MLs instead if upgrading the LRM. Perhaps a better variant would add a AMS or two to protect it against return fire, which should be mostly LRMs.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 02:08 AM
24.30.128.72
|
If it is after panthers, srm would be the main close in weapon. Still works. Ppc fire for long range. But that is against combine.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 04:41 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Firestarter FS 9-JM
Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 6,804,900 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,083
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 245 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 75.6 km/h (86.4 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 118.8 km/h (129.6 km/h)
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 210 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
3 Medium Lasers
4 Flamers
2 Machine Guns
1 Guardian ECM Suite
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 2 LT, 4 LA, 4 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 245 6.00
Walking MP: 7 (8)
Running MP: 11 (12)
Jumping MP: 7 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 4 LT, 3 RT 3.50
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
TSM Locations: 3 LA, 3 RA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 112 7.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 16
Center Torso (rear) 5
L/R Torso 8 12
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 6 10
L/R Leg 8 15
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Flamer RA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Flamer LA 3 1 1.00
Machine Gun RT 0 1 0.50
Machine Gun LT 0 1 0.50
Guardian ECM Suite LT 0 2 1.50
Flamer CT 3 1 1.00
(R) Flamer CT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser HD 3 1 1.00
@MG (1/2) (100) RT - 1 0.50
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 11
7j 3 2 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: TSM, ECM, CASE, HT1, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
Really didn't know what to do with this one. XL Engine + Endo Steel saved 7
tons, and sure, there's no shortage of ways to beef up the firepower, but what
would be the best choice in line with the Firestarter's rather specialized
role?
Not really a Scout, so the Beagle Probe on the official upgrade didn't sit well
with me, but the protection of an ECM Suite seemed attractive. CASE to protect
the MG Ammo (reduced to 1/2 ton). Spending 2 tons to boost speed and jump
range seemed a prudent choice, allows it to get in position quickly, and
withdraw easily to friendly territory. Another 1.5 tons towards armour,
bringing coverage to near-maximum, leaving one ton. I eventually decided on a
third ML...I figured a 5th Flamer would just be overkill, and it's not like it
needs any more anti-Infantry, so I went with the obvious.
Even with DHS, the Firestarter is left with some significant overheat, so I
used the remaining 6 crits to install TSM. If forced to fight, the TSM should
activate fairly readily, helping the Firestarter do some serious damage with
boosted physicals, or escape with the increase in speed.
I'll admit it: at this tonnage range, I'm much happier about putting XL Engines
on the non-direct-combat units. Light 'Mechs just can't mount enough armour to
be safe enough from Engine hits in the side torsos. My opinion. And I don't
always stick to it...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 04:46 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
If I recall the valkyrie was supposed to be a davion mech made to hunt panthers of the combine.
Interesting. Considering it's very poorly suited to that task. The LRM 10 with only 12 shots can't do enough damage to take down a Panther. Plus the Panther's PPC is a much more effective weapon at range, and has no ammo limitations. And the Panther massively outguns the Valkyrie at close range: the SRM 4 neats the ML, plus the PPC can be fired in close much better than the LRM. All the Valkyrie can do very well vs a Panther is run away...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 05:30 AM
24.30.128.72
|
Sorry. I thought it was in the house davion book or the tro:3025. I was wrong about being made to hunt panthers. That is my mistake.
As for the firestarter, I doubt you will fire the rear facing flamer with the other weapons and a jump, so overheating shouldn't be that big of a problem.
Granted without hand acutators, I don't think physicals is a great idea. Yes you have a kick, but a bad positioning or a miss might be bad for it. But it works well.
Maybe do a version that doesn't use the expensive xl engine.
And honestly with a jump of 7, it should not be in a hand to hand position very long. It should not be in range of the flamers for long either.
|
Karagin
02/25/14 06:14 AM
70.118.139.48
|
The Val looks good, nice update to a work horse mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/25/14 06:20 AM
208.54.86.203
|
Quote:
The one no one has been waiting for...
LOL
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/25/14 06:36 AM
208.54.86.203
|
I have always thought the only thing a firestarter was good for was to hunt for ammo dumps and to burn them.
And that job can be done by a vehicle scout with a shoulder launched twin SRM inferno.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 06:50 AM
24.30.128.72
|
Firestarters are good for controlling the way heat heavy units move in forests. Start fires in the way you don't want them to go. If you can, you torch the overheated mechs, though I thought this was stupid in a way.
Why would you want to be near say, an archer that is overheated to begin with, then cook it some more. The ammo explosion would rip thru your mech as well.
But that is using physics.
Against vehicles, this mech and its flame throwers are dangerous.
Still wondering why a tank doesn't explode like a mech does and damages anything in it's hex, like a mech that just kicked it.
|
Karagin
02/25/14 10:12 AM
70.118.139.48
|
Firestarters work really well in cities and forest.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/25/14 11:14 AM
50.72.218.68
|
I had thought about adding an LRM 5 and a ton of Thunder missiles for laying mines, but I couldn't remember when those were introduced.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Retry
02/25/14 11:43 AM
72.214.204.166
|
Smoke ammo works pretty well.
|
Cray
02/25/14 06:35 PM
71.47.122.85
|
Quote:
I had thought about adding an LRM 5 and a ton of Thunder missiles for laying mines, but I couldn't remember when those were introduced.
3030s or 3040s. It was an easy item to recover.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Cray
02/25/14 06:39 PM
71.47.122.85
|
Quote:
CASE can't hurt and it's a big improvement in protecting the mech for salvage.
Seconded.
30-ton designs tend to fail fast, but non-XL 'Mechs can lose limbs and torso and remain upright. No CASE and the whole torso is likely gone in one bang, which is a problem with or without XLs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/25/14 09:06 PM
208.54.38.208
|
Quote:
Firestarters work really well in cities and forest.
Yes lets kill tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of civilians wail burning a city to the ground. Yea that will go over well in your war crime trial, for the prosecutor's case that is! And then the wining side gits to spend trillions of C-Bills to rebuild the city that you burned to the ground.
Burning down entire forests creates a great economic hardship for which ever side wins. That's also a bad idea, but the good news is you wont be put in front of a firing squad for crimes against humanity.
I have always seen flamers as a very bad choice for a weapon because of the extreme collateral damage that cant be avoided.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Cray
02/25/14 09:17 PM
71.47.122.85
|
Quote:
Quote:
Firestarters work really well in cities and forest.
Yes lets kill tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of civilians wail burning a city to the ground.
The Succession Wars did just that. Actually, the First and Second Succession Wars tended to work with nuclear weapons. The heroic and freedom-loving forces of the Federated Suns nuked Sarna from 9 billion to 2 billion in a lazy afternoon. Taught those evil Capellans a lesson, right?
Quote:
Yea that will go over well in your war crime trial, for the prosecutor's case that is!
How many US B-29 bomber crews were charged with war crimes for dropping incendiary weapons on Japanese civilians?
There's always been a time and a place for incendiary weapons in war. Sometimes its burning out a bunker, or a field of grain, or getting a smoke screen going. Sometimes its to bring the enemy to their knees. In that last case, the decision as to whether or not the firebombing is a war crime depends on who wins the war.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
ghostrider
02/25/14 09:23 PM
24.30.128.72
|
Isn't that always the case.
As was said, kill one, your a murders. Kill 10,000 and your a conqueror.
Now here is a question donkey.
What is the difference from using a flamer to kill a city verses any other weapon that starts a fire and burns it down?
Most people don't deal with fires when playing battle tech. One simple thing like a gas main blowing up could very well destroy the city.
Yes, the firestarter mech is designed to burn things.
As for the bomber example cray brought up.
How many government leaders have been charged with war crimes for ordering the use of incendiaries?
Only the ones that get revolts pulling them out of power.
|
Karagin
02/25/14 09:38 PM
70.118.139.48
|
The old running cadence...napalm sticks to ...
Flame weapons are not terror weapons, they are tools. Firestaters are tools. They use something people fear, fire, to remove without a doubt that the attack is willing to burn it all down to win, and that is call psychological warfare.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/25/14 09:57 PM
208.54.38.208
|
Quote:
The heroic and freedom-loving forces of the Federated Suns nuked Sarna from 9 billion to 2 billion in a lazy afternoon. Taught those evil Capellans a lesson, right?
But they where Capellans, so that made it totally alright. They where in the way of their rightful masters, aka House Davion, from dominating the rest of the Enter Sphere with an iron fist. As you know it was entirely their fault because they did not bow down beg and grovel as proper slaves to their rightful master.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
02/26/14 12:23 AM
67.239.109.174
|
The person who loses war crime cases tend to be the same people that lose the war.
I'll just leave that here.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/26/14 06:01 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Jenner JR7-JM
Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-E-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 5,771,475 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,112
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 245 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 75.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 118.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 150 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
4 Medium Lasers
1 SRM-4
2 Streak SRM-2s
1 Small Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 3 LT, 4 LA, 3 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 245 6.00
Walking MP: 7
Running MP: 11
Jumping MP: 5 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 2 LT, 2 RT 2.50
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 96 6.00
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 7
Center Torso 11 15
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 8 13
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 6 8
L/R Leg 8 11
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers RA 6 2 2.00
2 Medium Lasers LA 6 2 2.00
Streak SRM-2 RT 2 1 1.50
Streak SRM-2 LT 2 1 1.50
SRM-4 CT 3 1 2.00
Small Pulse Laser HD 2 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (25) RT - 1 1.00
@Streak SRM-2 (50) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 12
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 11
7/3j 4 4 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
When the FA$A staff were asked why they used FF armour to save half a ton, and
then added CASE to upgrade the Jenner for the TRO: 3050, they replied, "It was
the least we could do."
If any 'Mech deserved better, it's the Jenner. With high heat and too little
armour for its size, the Jenner could use a ittle help to realize its
potential.
As much as I usually hesitate to put an XL Engine on a Light 'Mech designed for
direct combat, in this case it saves 6 tons, a whopping 17% of the 'Mech's
total mass. Another 1.5 tons from Endo Steel, and I had something to work
with.
First thought was to "top up" its jump range, but I thought, "Nah, that's one
of the Jenner's unique features. I'll leave that alone."
Instead, I added a pair of Streak SRM 2s, allowing the Jenner to deal damage
with them while carrying mission-specific ammo for the SRM4. CASE for the ammo
bins in the LT, DHS for better heat control, a SPL just in case it runs into
any infantry, and 2 tons to boost the armour to a more respectable level.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/26/14 06:38 PM
24.30.128.72
|
technically the srms could be useful for anti infantry, but it is a waste of ammo at times.
The use of the streaks is interesting. I would have thought another pair of medium lasers would be worth it. Only jumping while firing all of them would over heat it, without using the srm 4.
Now what would you say about going to the original jenner design with a large laser and 2 medium ones?
|
Retry
02/26/14 06:55 PM
67.239.109.174
|
SRMs are so good against infantry sometimes I wonder why anyone would bother with MGs.
|
Karagin
02/26/14 10:18 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Only time SRMs are good against infantry is if you have infernos. Other wise MGs are ALWAYS good against infantry.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
KamikazeJohnson
02/26/14 10:25 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
technically the srms could be useful for anti infantry, but it is a waste of ammo at times.
The use of the streaks is interesting. I would have thought another pair of medium lasers would be worth it. Only jumping while firing all of them would over heat it, without using the srm 4.
Now what would you say about going to the original jenner design with a large laser and 2 medium ones?
Thought about going with more MLs, but it seemed a little boring Effective, but boring.
The Large Laser variant is interesting...something I might try in a fresh design, but too much of a change for me to address it as a Jenner.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
02/26/14 10:28 PM
24.30.128.72
|
The 3025 tro was the one to suggest the large laser version. Granted, it would not look like a normal jenner, but then most changes would make it look different.
|
Karagin
02/27/14 10:24 PM
70.118.139.48
|
I like this take on the Jenner.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/27/14 11:51 PM
24.30.128.72
|
how about make it really interesting. Use 2 lrm 5 packs instead of the streaks with half ton for each.
Really ruin someone day.
|
Retry
02/28/14 12:07 AM
67.239.109.174
|
SRMs are WAY better at anti-infantry than any other weapon not intended for anti-infantry duties, such as ACs and PPCs and LLs.
And you can fit A LOT and don't need to be at point blank to hit the infantry, so arguably against infantry with heavy support lasers or other long ranged weapons it would in fact be better and safer to use those.
|
ghostrider
02/28/14 12:21 AM
24.30.128.72
|
well it is true that srm infantry have a range of 6, which means mg's are not going to work.
And being to much to address as a jenner? now you are sounding like the argument over the urbanmech. It is just a weapons variant....
Why does auto speller look wrong on words?
|
Retry
02/28/14 12:26 AM
67.239.109.174
|
I referred to Karagin, not you.
|
Karagin
02/28/14 06:25 AM
70.118.139.48
|
Using SRMs Retry to blast infantry in BT is a waste of SRM ammo. There are better things to use against them like MGs or SPLs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/28/14 03:00 PM
24.30.128.72
|
Unless they changed the rules, I thought weapons did their full amount of damage to infantry.
If this is still in effect, that means a ppc does 10 points to the infantry. 1d6 is better then the normal 2 (most of the time) but doesn't mean it is the best to kill infantry.
Still. Subject is drifting from the mechs being presented. Pick this up in a thread elsewhere.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/28/14 08:40 PM
172.56.16.136
|
Most weapons kill one person no matter how much damage it does. The exemption is weapons like machine guns that do full damage and double damage if the infantry are in the open
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Karagin
02/28/14 10:20 PM
70.118.139.48
|
We are talking about what is on the mechs Ghostrider and how some don't like the choices. It's not drifting and really the topics will drift around for the most part.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/28/14 11:23 PM
24.30.128.72
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ok. Master rules page 60 says unarmored infantry takes damage equal to the damage value of the weapon. In clear terrain they suffer double damage. page 45 of the Battletech Compendium says the same thing. Page 35 of citytech says infantry take normal damage except in the open, where they take double the damage.
When did they change it so weapons besides mgs and flamers do 1 point of damage?
I have the older books, so it is possible it may be in the newer printings/versions, but would like to know this.
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Karagin
02/28/14 11:34 PM
70.118.139.48
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Tech Manual and other core rule books have changed a lot of things, and the whole idea was to make things easier to follow and use and keep it all together etc...so far not so good at that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 12:21 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Ostscout OTT-JM
Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 7,773,300 C-Bills
Battle Value: 658
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 315 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 97.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 151.2 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 270 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
None
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 2 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 2 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 315 11.00
Walking MP: 9
Running MP: 14
Jumping MP: 9 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 CT, 4 LT, 4 RT 4.50
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 10 0.00
Gyro: Standard 4.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA R: SH+UA+LA
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 107 6.00
Armor Locations: 1 RT, 6 LA, 7 RA
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 15
Center Torso (rear) 5
L/R Torso 8 12
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 6 10
L/R Leg 8 13
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-Missile System RT 1 1 0.50
Anti-Missile System LT 1 1 0.50
Beagle Active Probe LT 0 2 1.50
TAG CT 0 1 1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12) HD - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 0
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 7
9j 0 0 0 0 1 0 Structure: 2
Special Abilities: AMS, TAG, PRB, RCN, ENE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
The Ostscout. The "useless" 'Mech according to new players, or those who only
play single-map, 2-on-2 'Mech battles. This one took a lot of thought, as I
didn't want to duplicate what I'd done with the Spider. The issue was, how do
I stick to the spirit of a non-combatant 'Mech while still being original,
since the Spider and Ostscout are very similar in spirit?
The official TRO:3050 upgrade was a simple swap-out of the Medium Laser for a
TAG. Useful, but once again, there was so much more that could have been done.
Endo Steel to save 1.5 tons, XL Engine allows the 'Mech's speed to be increased
even more, while still saving another 3.5 tons.
I removed the Hand Actuators, as the graphic clearly shows the Ostscout (like
it's larger cousins) with no hands. Upgrading to 6 tons of Ferro Fibrous
Armour gives near-maximum protection.
I decided to follow the oficial upgrade by removing the Laser for a TAG, but I
also added a Beagle Probe, essential equipment for any scout, and a pair of
Anti-Missile Systems for added protection.
My Ostscout is equipped for both scouting and "spotting", as well as being able
to outrun pretty much anything in order to withdraw and save itself, if
necessary.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/01/14 01:38 AM
24.30.128.72
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Still haven't seen when they changed the infantry damage rule.
I would think the hands would be a good thing on a scout mech. It would be better to move a branch then have to reposition a mech for a clearer view of the enemy's assets.
I know it sounds like a broken record, but this is one mech that would be good to have an ecm with it. Trying to get the weight for it is the issue.
The anti missile system is a good addition. Granted some of the energy and balistics weapons have better range then lrms, There isn't much you can do about them.
I like the speed and jump range. Get out of harms way quickly.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 05:24 AM
208.54.38.242
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I'm sorry but I cant see spending just shy of 8 million C-Bills on something where a guy in a 1,000 C-Bill jeep can do the job better because he is not, in a walking mountain that can be spotted miles away (most planets are not one big forest that can conceal a battlemech where ever it might want to go.), makes a great deal of noise because something that is 20+ tons that has a great deal of moving parts because it walks and has metal rubbing against metal is not quiet in the farthest reach of the imagination, and leaves big holes in the ground where it stepped.
That guy in a jeep can conceal that he is in the military, can drive into a town, drive around collecting intel, and drive out without anyone the wiser. Being in a battlemech there is no question in anyone's mind what so ever what you are and what your doing. What, are you going to do park the mech hundreds of miles away, walk to the city, then walk hundreds of miles back to the mech so you can report back?
I have always thought the idea of a battlemech used as a scout as laughable at best. Now lighter faster mechs used as a screening force like a naval destroyer is used that I can see. But as a scout? Not ever!!!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
03/01/14 09:50 AM
67.239.109.174
|
On the flip side, a battlemech's armor should be so thin due to needing to cover lots of surface area that any real hit should go straight through it and hit it's internals.
I think it's safe to say we can discard conventional wisdom for this one.
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Karagin
03/01/14 11:13 AM
70.118.139.48
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Good job with the Ostscout. It fits the role of scout mech well. Like the combo the AMS and the electronics.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/01/14 02:53 PM
24.30.128.72
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I agree with part of donkeys arguement. There is times when you can NOT use a jeep for scouting. Granted most the population in these cases are in bio domes and such.
Also, some forces are mech only. Raids are a big thing that may have a mech only force.
They can be dropped from orbit and picked up quicker then other types with the exception of battle armor/elemental armor.
Most mechs have the speed and firepower to get in and out of an area without worrying much about terrain.
Otherwise the use of people for scouts would be the best way to go to scout a static enemy. If you are trying to find one that is moving alot, then no..
With the points of the noise and such, I really don't see how you could make a stealth unit out of mechs or tracked/hover tanks for that fact.
I can see where a new person in some towns would draw attention. Those that everyone knows everyone else. Being alone or in a small group on foot puts you in alot more danger as well.
And alot of these people should be glad planets aren't one big forest. That would make the lrm obsolete big time. It would make the small and medium lasers very popular as well as the ac 10/20.
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Karagin
03/01/14 03:12 PM
70.118.139.48
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Actually Ghostrider, LRMs would not be obsolete on heavy forest world, you are firing at grid cooridnates which means the ground, rocket based artillery would clear patches of ground fast. LRMs could be used to do the same thing. There are ways around the terrain issues.
Mechs can be used as scouts, just as vehicles can, or VTOLs or aerospace fighters etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/01/14 03:15 PM
67.239.109.174
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Though weapons like the AC/2 and gauss rifles that are direct fire with minimum ranges would be much less useful in heavy forests. With indirect fire, LRMs not so much.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 03:30 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
I agree with part of donkeys arguement. There is times when you can NOT use a jeep for scouting. Granted most the population in these cases are in bio domes and such.
Also, some forces are mech only. Raids are a big thing that may have a mech only force.
They can be dropped from orbit and picked up quicker then other types with the exception of battle armor/elemental armor.
Most mechs have the speed and firepower to get in and out of an area without worrying much about terrain.
Otherwise the use of people for scouts would be the best way to go to scout a static enemy. If you are trying to find one that is moving alot, then no..
With the points of the noise and such, I really don't see how you could make a stealth unit out of mechs or tracked/hover tanks for that fact.
I can see where a new person in some towns would draw attention. Those that everyone knows everyone else. Being alone or in a small group on foot puts you in alot more danger as well.
And alot of these people should be glad planets aren't one big forest. That would make the lrm obsolete big time. It would make the small and medium lasers very popular as well as the ac 10/20.
A lot depends on what is meant by "scouting". In Donkey's example of checking out population centers for word of enemy troop movements, ibviously non-military vehicles would be appropriate. Trudging through difficukt terrain to find hidden units? Ok, so maybe VTOLs and Conventional Aurcraft might be superior to 'Mechs for that as well. But, given that this is Battletech where by definition 'Mechs are the unit of choice for most duties, we are more or less forced to accept 'Mechs as Scouts.
OTOH, "forward spotter" is another possible and common task for this type of design, sighting for LRM Indirect Fire, using the TAG to spot for Off-Board Artillery or Semi-Guided Missiles. Thanks to rules that arbitrarily grant superiority to 'Mechs, a 'Mech has the mobility to get into position more easily than other units, plus better ability to survive any hits it might take before being able to withdraw.
As for the price tag...yeah, you get into a 300+ XL Engine, prices get pretty ridiculous. Shows the flaws in the BT cost system.
In response to the other comments, I skipped on the ECM mainly because I didn't want to end up with a 35-ton version of what I did with the Spider (the two designs are awkwardly similar to start with).
Hand Actuators...like I said, both the Ostroc and Ostsol are handless, and the picture in the TRO is handless. (Plus I needed 2 crits for the FF armour...)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/01/14 04:32 PM
24.30.128.72
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Its an upgrade, as well as some people don't have direct access to all the mechs in the innersphere. If a few seem like each other, well that happens.
It is nice you are trying to keep them from looking like clones.
Effectiveness is what will sell a mech. Still the extra costs might put this one in a specialty catagory.. oh wait it is there already 
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 05:59 PM
172.56.39.144
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Type/Model scout Tank
Mass: 10
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 0 1.00
Engine: 60 ICE 0 1.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 1.50
Cruise MP: 6
Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks: 0 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 0.50
Crew: 1 Members 0 .00
Armor Factor: 32 pts standard 0 2.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 1 12
Left / Right Sides: 1 8/8
Rear: 1 4
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
Beagle Active Probe body 0 - 1 1.50
TAG body 0 - 1 1.00
@Anti-Missile System front 0 12 1 1.00
Cost 435,000 C-Bills
I will admit that this dose not have the speed or the armor of KarikazeJohnson's Ostscout OTT-JM, but it costs 5.6% of his mech. You can field about 18 of these for the cost of one of his mechs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 06:03 PM
172.56.39.144
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So your going to drop four mechs for a raid and one of them is going to be completely unarmed!?!
If your going to drop a force that is big enough that it can afford to have a mech that is totally unarmed that is an invasion and not a raid.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Karagin
03/01/14 06:04 PM
70.118.139.48
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True and you can't cross many terrain features as the mech can and you are also limited on range do to the IC engine and the need for fuel. Also the damage spread on vehicles will leave this a smoking wreak faster then the mech would be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/01/14 06:06 PM
70.118.139.48
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You could have a mech that is unarmed in a raid, that way they won't go and do something stupid like attack the enemy. They scout, mark targets and given an intel advantage to the rest of the force as well as follow up attacks.
ALL recon elements first rule is to remain unseen/undiscovered, fight only if they have too and run verses fighting because dead means no intel to your friends who are counting you and your buddies to get them the info they need to engage the other side.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 06:10 PM
172.56.39.144
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A VTAL with a machine gun as its only weapon can trash his 8 million C-Bill unarmed mech because it cant fire back.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 06:22 PM
38.108.87.20
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Quote:
I will admit that this dose not have the speed or the armor of KarikazeJohnson's Ostscout OTT-JM, but it costs 5.6% of his mech. You can field about 18 of these for the cost of one of his mechs.
Not to mention less specialized training, so it would probably be cheap to man the 18 Jeeps than to keep 1 competent 'Mechwarrior.
Like I said, some suspension of disbelief is required to accept that the Ostscout in general is worth it. But given that it has a use, this is an upgrade, at least for those who wouldn't rather have my version of the Spider.
Edited by KamikazeJohnson (03/01/14 06:23 PM)
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Retry
03/01/14 06:36 PM
67.239.109.174
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Can TAG be body mounted? Cause as I understand it, it is basically a laser that guides guided weaponry, so it should have a crit location on one of the sides anyways.
Anyways, donkey, your tank has neither the speed nor the armor to be of much use in any larger conflict that uses anything bigger than Scorpion tanks.
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Karagin
03/01/14 06:52 PM
70.118.139.48
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TAG can be mounted on any part of the mech you have a critical slot open.
Retry you are aware that tanks are a compromise of speed, armor and weapons, where you never get the best of all three and are lucky to get the best of two?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/01/14 07:08 PM
67.239.109.174
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Yeah, well, Donkey's tank isn't quite a mech.
You are aware if made well enough tanks don't have to compromise much of anything?
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Karagin
03/01/14 07:10 PM
70.118.139.48
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Okay Retry it is clear you don't understand tanks, very clear.
And Donkey's tank is well enough for a cost worried group to use it verse a mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/01/14 07:25 PM
67.239.109.174
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Technically not a tank, but my already-posted Mirage chopper sacrificed none of the three.
The Charger series I also posted was average in all three catagories. A little slower than normal 55 tonners, but you can treat two of them as a whole 90 ton-ish mech.
Heck, even some canon units of the 3025 era got it. The Manticore is a solid design. The Patton and Rommel both are as well. The Rhinos are not too slow for their size while carrying a nice amount of armor and weaponry.
Really, the only time you ever have to sacrifice a serious amount of one of the three is when your design specifications are too extreme to be placed on a normal chassis anyways... *cough* Dragon HAAAV *cough*
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 07:42 PM
172.56.39.144
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Yes you can have a tank that has a XXL fusion plant and everything else that will maximize what you can pack onto the frame but then your not using the tank for what it is best for, a cheap combat unit.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
03/01/14 07:47 PM
67.239.109.174
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You don't even need an XL powerplant. A fuel cell one will suffice if you don't use energy weapons, SFEs otherwise do the job.
I don't think any of my canon unit examples even uses an XXL.
If you want a cheap combat unit, you take infantry with some field guns and artillery. Perhaps some APCs but that's mostly it. Tanks are moderate cost weapons of war at worst.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 07:48 PM
24.114.45.78
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Anyway, could you guys please rehash the old 'Mech's vs Tanks Superiority debate sonewhere else? Keep comments here at least marginally relevent to my upgrade (if questionable value) to an established design (of questionable value)?
Thanks.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/01/14 07:50 PM
67.239.109.174
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Well, you have a mech that only has a TAG as a "weapon". And if you don't have the proper equipment supporting you, that makes your only backup weapon your fists.
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ghostrider
03/01/14 07:55 PM
24.30.128.72
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The tank is like most other units. It is good in some areas, and can't be useful in others.
Most light mechs will run down the tank when they know its there. Not much a tank can do to lose something chasing it. But the tank works and is cheaper.
Having an expensive mech that only scouts in the books and actually using one is 2 different stories. I know there is alot of times the mech is preferable to the tank. With the higher chance a single point of damage will stop a tank, the mech is sturdier.
Now I will point out the Rhino tank is not a 3025 vehicle. It was built earlier in the star league time, but was not really in use in 3025. It came from the helm core.
Now I will agree tag need to have an opening to laze the target. Other then that, it could be anywhere. A turret would be the best spot, since it can be turned to which ever direction to be used. In the body/sides including front, needs to be turned to where the target is at for the tag to function properly. If not, then stop trying to say you are trying to play a canon type of game.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 07:57 PM
24.114.45.78
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Quote:
Well, you have a mech that only has a TAG as a "weapon". And if you don't have the proper equipment supporting you, that makes your only backup weapon your fists.
1) Only deploy this model when there is proper support
2) Any pilot who attempts any sort of combat with this 'Mech deserves to fry in his cockpit.
3) Assuming the commander deploying this unit does not suffer from a case of terminal stupidity, the TAG and Active Probe are much more useful than the original's paltry single ML.
4) I would prefer to have a much more "well-rounded" unit personally, but the Ostscout is, and always has been, a specialist.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/01/14 08:01 PM
67.239.109.174
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I don't disagree with you with the TAG tidbit, it was more of a summary of the entire mech.
(Um, can anyone tell me how exactly BAPs and BHPs work in-game?)
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ghostrider
03/01/14 08:02 PM
24.30.128.72
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A tag is a support weapon, not a true line of sight instant damage weapon. I believe alot of these people have forgotten there is flight times with arrow IV systems. Unless they are on board, there is atleast a round before the ordinance reachs the battlefield.
Or did they change this as well?
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Retry
03/01/14 08:04 PM
67.239.109.174
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No, Arrow IV and any other type of artillery have flight times to the target. If the arty is close though there isn't much of an issue.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 08:07 PM
24.114.45.78
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Quote:
I don't disagree with you with the TAG tidbit, it was more of a summary of the entire mech.
(Um, can anyone tell me how exactly BAPs and BHPs work in-game?)
Never used them myself, partly because I've never played with hidden units. As I understand it though, a Hidden unit within the effect radius of a probe is revealed if the unit with the probe (or a unit friendly to the probe unit,) has LOS.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/01/14 08:10 PM
67.239.109.174
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Is the hidden unit rule the one that included the thing with the 60 hexes sight limit?
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ghostrider
03/01/14 08:15 PM
24.30.128.72
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So you would rather spend time chasing down a weaponless mech, instead of looking for the artillery unit that is close by and eliminate it before the mech?
You know the launcher units for the artillery is slow and would have nice juicy ammo units with it, as well might be unguarded.
And there have been times that you can target a unit one round, but not the next. Even one round flight time creates havoc trying to target things.
Remember, los for tag....
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Karagin
03/01/14 08:16 PM
70.118.139.48
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60 hexes? Isn't it 6 hexes or did they change the range of the probes?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/01/14 08:19 PM
67.239.109.174
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I'm talking visual range. As in if a unit isn't within 60 hexes of some other unit, it won't be seen, even if it doesn't have stealth armor or hidden bonuses of sorts.
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ghostrider
03/01/14 08:30 PM
24.30.128.72
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I have not seen any canon rules that shows how far a sensor detect a unit of certain size. Or any way to determine if the unit can be found on sensors without the advanced equipment.
The Crescent Hawk game, though not official, was the closest thing I can find that had some sort of idea how sensors worked. They showed a symbol that something was there, but not what it was. Only when you got within a certain distance or visual range did it show what the unit was.
I have seen in (I think) Rhondas irregulars that they dealt with sensor baffled lifts on a battle field. They also have examples of that in the maccarons book as well though these were actually buildings with weapons in them, but in the main battle tech game, they have NO information on them. Only canon supplementals.
This is frustrating.
By the way. Did they add in the firewalls for buildings in the newer version?
They are basically case items for buildings.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 08:31 PM
172.56.39.144
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Quote:
2) Any pilot who attempts any sort of combat with this 'Mech deserves to fry in his cockpit.
To use TAG or the Beagle Active Probe you have to get within weapon range. You will be shot at!
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
03/01/14 08:33 PM
24.30.128.72
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The probe is limited to like 5 or 6 hexes. There is no doubt of taking fire unless you are lucky enough not to be spotted, or the units have nothing but sl, mgs or flamers.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/01/14 08:35 PM
24.114.45.78
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Quote:
The probe is limited to like 5 or 6 hexes. There is no doubt of taking fire unless you are lucky enough not to be spotted, or the units have nothing but sl, mgs or flamers.
Good reason to put the probe on a hard-to-hit unit with decent protection.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/01/14 08:36 PM
70.118.139.48
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Where are you getting this 60 hexes from?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 08:37 PM
172.56.39.144
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Range is 4 for IS and 5 for Clan.
You scan at end of movement and not during your movement. If you are travailing at a fast speed you could go right past a hidden unit and never know it was ever there.
You must have line of sight to the target your scanning.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Karagin
03/01/14 08:37 PM
70.118.139.48
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I can't wait to see what you do with the Cicada...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/01/14 08:40 PM
67.239.109.174
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That's more of a flaw with rule technicalities and not the BAP itself.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 08:42 PM
172.56.39.144
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Them are the rules.
Another thing is if your not using hidden rules in the game your playing the BAR is just wasted weight
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
03/01/14 08:45 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Clearly we are assuming we are using at least some rules which use BAPs so it wouldn't be wasted weight.
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Karagin
03/01/14 08:46 PM
70.118.139.48
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Assuming that players are doing anything is not a good idea.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/01/14 08:54 PM
24.30.128.72
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without going through everything, I believe one of the mechwarrior editions said something about visual range being 60 hexes. This is from a poor memory.
Now you guys are making it hard to stay on subject.
There is one assumption that remains true.
It players don't like something, they will ignore it.
The tag might be usable without being shot at. It just takes some good die rolls, and people not paying attention to the tree swaying for no reason.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 09:01 PM
172.56.39.144
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You must be within 15 hexes to use TAG.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
03/01/14 09:01 PM
67.239.109.174
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*20 with extreme range rules*
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ghostrider
03/01/14 09:02 PM
24.30.128.72
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Yes. That is true. There are ways to be within 15 hexes and not be shot at. Most of them deal with high movement rate in 2 woods hexes, but there are others.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 09:17 PM
172.56.39.144
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There are no extreme range rules with TAG its 15 hexes or your out of range.
Moving affects your ability to keep a target lit with TAG. If you ever lose LOS to the target the missiles miss with no role aloud. You must keep LOS with the target for the entire time the missiles are in flight.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
03/01/14 09:26 PM
67.239.109.174
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I know I'm going to sound like a hypocrit.
BUT
Citation needed.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 09:28 PM
172.56.39.144
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All of the rules for BAR and TAG are in Battletech Compendium.
I'm sure their in other updated books but I don't own them
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
03/01/14 09:40 PM
24.30.128.72
|
With a jump of 9, I can drop in a second set of heavy woods gaining the 3 protection while denying it to you. At medium/long range for the weapons that can fire out this far, the jump +5, and the 2 heavy woods should mean most gunnery skill level of 4 would no be able to hit at long range, and maybe 11 at medium. That is without your unit moving.
Now if i wanted to be a real ****, I don't have to target your unit specifically. I could target someone stationary where you are at and let the artillery damage hit you. It would be at -4 to hit. If I recall right, there is not range differences to tag. Now if I target you, i have +3 for the jump and maybe +2 for the heavy woods inbetween us. So yeah, a 9 for me to hit you in this situation. Now if i went into the closest woods, I drop +2 from both sides.
If you move and don't move more then 3, the I only have 7 to hit you. You are 10's at medium range, and 12's at long. That is IF you have the weapons that fire at these ranges. A hunchback would have not shot unless they have the lrm variant.
This changes if I run or even walk into the woods. Yes, my movement drops to 7 instead of 8 to get into the woods. If I just get behind them, then I could keep the 9 move.
Granted this is not likely everytime I go to fire, but you get the idea, i hope.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/01/14 09:49 PM
172.56.39.144
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If you target the space you do only 5 points of damage to any unit in the hex you target. TAG guided missiles do no damage to surrounding hexes. You just wasted a very expensive missiles to do the damage of a medium laser. It would have been better to use non TAG guided missiles to target the hex.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Karagin
03/01/14 09:56 PM
70.118.139.48
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Retry, the rules from Mechwarrior don't translate well to the table top BT game. Many players don't mix the two at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/01/14 09:57 PM
70.118.139.48
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Technical Manual and Total Warfare should set you straight on TAG and BAP and BHP, as well as many other things Retry.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
03/01/14 10:02 PM
67.239.109.174
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When did Mechwarrior ever get added to the equation?
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ghostrider
03/01/14 10:42 PM
24.30.128.72
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I was wrong on the targetting numbers to designate a target. It does have a short, medium, and long range section.
Now if it does hit, roll 2d6. any result above a 4 hits the target. The damage is apply as the shot came from the designator. 20 points of artillery damage to the target from the side the designator was on, and 5 points to everything else in the hex.
It would be worth the gamble of having shots fired on the mech to get in short range and target the back of a mech. Jump back out the next round.
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Karagin
03/01/14 11:57 PM
70.118.139.48
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So Kamakize do you plan on similar takes on the rest of the OST series of mechs?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 12:13 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
So Kamakize do you plan on similar takes on the rest of the OST series of mechs?
Haven't even looked at them yet. I do plan on leaving them with at least a few weapons each...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/02/14 02:03 AM
24.30.128.72
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The scout mech is a weird issue because of the scouts should not be in battle sort of thing.
Let's face it. A scout without high end equipment is nothing more the an excuse for the commanders son to avoid combat.
I really think mechs should have hands if they aren't lacking the crits. Especially the ones people would see as raiders. Grab and smash raids work only whey you can grab.
Getting out of mech to put things in a net, then hook it up to a mech.. With no mechs having hands, that makes it extremely difficult if not impossible, since I doubt every place you raid with have a convienent loader around.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 11:32 AM
50.72.218.68
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Panther PNT-JM
Mass: 35 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E-A
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 3,112,110 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,009
Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 140 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
1 ER PPC
1 SRM-4 w/ Artemis IV FCS
1 Medium Laser
1 Anti-Missile System
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 58 points 2.00
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 2 LT, 4 RT, 5 LA, 2 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 140 5.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 2.00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 112 7.00
CASE Locations: 1 LT 0.50
Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 11 14
Center Torso (rear) 7
L/R Torso 8 11
L/R Torso (rear) 5
L/R Arm 6 12
L/R Leg 8 13
================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER PPC RA 15 3 7.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Anti-Missile System LT 1 1 0.50
SRM-4 CT 3 1 2.00
Artemis IV FCS CT - 1 1.00
@SRM-4 (25) LT - 1 1.00
@Anti-Missile System (12) LT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 4
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 4 Points: 10
4j 2 2 1 0 1 1 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: AMS, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
DESIGN NOTES:
I've always liked the design concept of the Panther, and I've applied the same
philisophy to many of my own designs: moderate speed, one might even say slow
for a Light 'Mech, but enough to keep pace with the heaviier units it's
intended to support. The reduced speed means both more tonnage available for
weapons, and a lower cost due to the smaller engine. Plus, the smaller engine
indirectly makes the "mech more ikely to survive a critical hit, as more of the
heat Sinks are placed, providing a "safe" item to possibly absorb a critical
hit.
I was mostly happy with the FA$A upgrade for this one: Endo Steel to save 1.5
tons, DHS to handle the increased heat of the obvious upgrade to an ERPPC,
Artemis IV for the SRM, CASE for the ammo. However the oversight of leaving
the Panther with 13 Heat Sinks rather than reducing to the default 10 irked me,
as 3 tons can be significant on a 'Mech this size.
So with 3 tons to spare I went to work. Half ton for armour, 1 ton for a
Medium Laser, and 1.5 tons or an AMS and Ammo. I could have used 2.5 tons to
upgrade the speed rather than equipment, but I chose to stick with the original
concept and just give it a little more punch.
An XL Engine would have saved enough tonnage to up the speed to 6/9/6, which is
fast enough to compensate at least partially for the increased vulnerability,
but i felt that much of an increase lost the spirit of the design, which is a
stand-and-fight support for heavier 'Mechs, and I preferred the slower speed.
OTOH, the Panther is too fragile to justify using the XL to save a mere 2.5
tons at its current speed.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 11:37 AM
50.72.218.68
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Well, that's all for the Light 'Mechs. This thread is starting to get a bit cumbersome, so I'll start a fresh thread for the Medium 'Mechs.
Really loving the lively discussions on this thread. Keep it up!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
03/02/14 12:19 PM
70.118.139.48
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I like this take on the Panther. It balances out and allows you to gain flexibility.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 03:02 PM
24.30.128.72
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Instead of the artemis, would it have been better to upgrade the 4 pack to a 6 pack?
Or went with lrms to compliment the erppcs range?
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 03:09 PM
24.114.44.46
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Quote:
Instead of the artemis, would it have been better to upgrade the 4 pack to a 6 pack?
Or went with lrms to compliment the erppcs range?
The SRM 4/Artemis is very close in damage to the SRM 6, generates 1 less heat (minor, but every bit counts if you're firing that ERPPC up close), but more importantly you get more ammo with the SRM 4. Besides, the ERPPC/SRM 6 combo is what you see on a Scorpion...
Thought about LRMs, but decided to stay closer to the standard weapon set. Although if I was using more modern tech, I would absolutely have gone with a MML.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/02/14 03:16 PM
72.214.204.166
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I'll need to get number crunching to find average damages of the two again later.
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ghostrider
03/02/14 03:30 PM
24.30.128.72
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There is one mech that may not be here. It wasn't in the 3025 book, but was in the 4th succession war.
Are you going to do anything with the wolfhound?
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KamikazeJohnson
03/02/14 05:25 PM
24.114.44.46
|
Quote:
There is one mech that may not be here. It wasn't in the 3025 book, but was in the 4th succession war.
Are you going to do anything with the wolfhound?
The Wolfhound apprears in the Revised TRO:3025 (the one without the Unseen) if I recall. I'm not familiar with most of the designs specific to that edition, so I don't have the same built-in desire to tinker with them, but I might cover them after I deal with everything from the original TRO:3025.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
03/04/14 05:16 PM
66.27.181.33
|
Someone asked about the ott line of mediums. I would suggest that when you update them, you make the arms more then just targets. I would suggest hands in them, so they can actually be useful.
Punchs comes to mind. Kicks can be dangerous to oneself if you have a bad piloting skill..
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KamikazeJohnson
03/04/14 07:21 PM
24.114.40.116
|
Quote:
Someone asked about the ott line of mediums. I would suggest that when you update them, you make the arms more then just targets. I would suggest hands in them, so they can actually be useful.
Punchs comes to mind. Kicks can be dangerous to oneself if you have a bad piloting skill..
That would come under the heading of "keeping the spirit of the original". So definitely no Hand Actuators. I might mount some weapons for better firing arc.
If I was redesigning from scratch, I'd definitely include eithet Hands or Arm-mounted weapons, since there's no reason NOT to have the actuators.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
03/04/14 09:53 PM
66.27.181.33
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how about an urbanmech that carries a gauss rifle?
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Retry
03/04/14 09:56 PM
67.239.109.174
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Uh...
The normal GR weighs half the urbanmech's weight before ammo.
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ghostrider
03/04/14 10:00 PM
66.27.181.33
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its only a ton more then an ac 20. holds more shots in the ammo.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/04/14 10:00 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
how about an urbanmech that carries a gauss rifle?
AC/20 would be more thematic, being a close-range weapon, but the Gauss could fit the concept, providing it's actually possible to fit one on an Urbie.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/04/14 10:09 PM
67.239.109.174
|
LGRs might work better, 3 tons lighter.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/04/14 10:11 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
LGRs might work better, 3 tons lighter.
That would be pretty much a straight swap. Assuming we'reworkung in the right era.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
03/04/14 10:11 PM
66.27.181.33
|
don't know if they were available during this updating time.
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Retry
03/04/14 10:12 PM
67.239.109.174
|
3056.
I'll be damned.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/04/14 10:27 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
3056.
I'll be damned.
Yeah, 3050 tech is quite limited.
Endo Steel
Ferro Fibrous
XL Engine
DHD
ER Large Laser
ER PPC
UAC/5
LB 10-X AC
Gauss Rifle
SRM 2 Streak
Pulse Lasers (S/M/L)
Artemis IV FCS
AMS
Beagle Active Probe
Guardian ECM Suite
Triple Strength Myomer
That's all the shrimp.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Retry
03/04/14 10:28 PM
67.239.109.174
|
The LB-10 would be a simple swap for the urbie as well. Almost perfect in fact.
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KamikazeJohnson
03/04/14 10:30 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
The LB-10 would be a simple swap for the urbie as well. Almost perfect in fact.
That's what the TRO:3050 does. Upgrade the AC, add a SPL
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Retry
03/04/14 10:36 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Well then.
LPL?
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KamikazeJohnson
03/04/14 10:40 PM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
Well then.
LPL?
Drop the SL, use DHS, and mount 2 of them.
Violates my self-imposed conditions for this project, but a great idea in general.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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