Re Thinking Jump ships and Drop ships

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Requiem
07/26/19 09:21 AM
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Should the rules need changing in the following areas …

New ships are needed to be established – where a ship's Jump distance is not a universal constant it is determined by its size – (yet to be determined by tonnage)

Different Classes
Scout – four times the normal distance
Small – twice normal
Medium - normal Jump distance
Heavy – Half Normal
Super Heavy – Quarter normal

Does the game also needs the introduction of … Colony ships (from the time when people were initially colonizing space) – something similar to a massive space station with dozens of Drop ships - Remember the Colonies on Gundam, something like this, however they would also have a massive amount of Colony Drop/ships – very large drop ships specializing in a colonies initial requirements.

One Drop ship that is specialized in its construction for one specific task ....
- Living quarters
- Hospital Class – includes a complete toxicology / bacterial analysis of the planet prior to colonization.
- Engineering Class – Manufacturing
- Logistics Class – stores all the pre-fabricated buildings etc
- Power-plant Class – Nuclear Electric Reactor
- Horticulture or Agriculture / Aquaculture / Viticulture / Domesticated farm Animals etc - allows the animals to be transferred from the inside of the Colony ship to the ground once a suitable environment has been established
- Air / Soil / Water / sewerage purification plants etc
- Vehicles for all the different needs of the Colony
- Foundry - mining - converting raw ore into metal that is then sent to engineering to be made into whatever is needed
- Electronics - manufacture and servicing of the colonies electronics requirements.
- Water recovery and transport
- Etc.
Should these types of Drop ships still be in service and being made within the game world as it appears the game world is lacking in these types of Drop ships.

Then for Warships yes you can have extremely large Battleships and Aerospace fighter / bomber Carrier Ships (with reduced jump ranges) but corvettes and frigates would be smaller and with increased ranges - thus for raids you can get there quicker and for mass planetary assaults – it may take longer to get there but you can bring more to bear in an initial assault.

For commercial uses yes you can have very large Jump-ships that could carry way more drop ships - for the main trade lines -but at the expense of their range – thus takes longer to reach its destination
ghostrider
07/26/19 12:04 PM
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The need for different styles of dropships is basically the game master/players of the game. Construction rules are there, and alls you have to do is make a custom dropship. One such one is the Mule Mining ship for example.
There is no reason why you couldn't convert or build a colony ship out of a Mammoth dropship. Behemoth might be the first choice, but they can not land. So shuttling down the colonists would be needed.

The classes of ships, dropships anyways, is already determined as well. Fuel consumption being how they figure that. Less weight, more distance traveled.
Jumpships would mean a total change in their construction, though the developers have done so with the introduction of the Compact Jump Drive. And even then, it might not be worth doing. Yes, it might take an extra week to go the distance, you can always recharge and jump another time.

The need for a hazmat medical bay should be cut down because proper surveying of a world should have done so before the colonists are sent. I want to say the med bays of most dropships should contain some of this equipment, as soldiers are regularly assigned to hazardous worlds, but I don't think they specifically say such things.

The power plant idea. Are you reusing the dropship to move others? Is it going to stay where it lands? The rating of fusion plants is set for weapons using it. So how much power does a ppc take over a full electric smelting plant? How much power does the medbay require?

I want to say the Condor dropship has a med ship conversion to it.

Now fitting all of the examples into one ship is probably not going to happen, unless you have just the equipment stores in the cargo bays, and build something on world to house that equipment.
Normal maintenance bays should handle the engineering/logistics portion, as well as maybe electronics.
Making vehicles that are specific for some of the things like a coolant truck that pumps and purifies water instead of hauling coolant comes to mind.

The jumpship cores are sized to the ship for the range jumped. Unless you can add to such cores, I don't see to much in the way of extending their range. That is without a major advancement in jump technology.
Maybe a scout jumpship the size of a merchant or invader with the extra weight being jump core?
Requiem
07/26/19 07:05 PM
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I have come to the conclusion the existing construction rules needs to be replaced to allow for the construction of a more realistic colony ship etc. Thus remove the existing rules and replace it with a completely new rules to allow for advancements in technology from the first jump circa 2100 to 3150. As it appears, within the canon game, as if no advancement in Jump technology has occurred in over one thousand years.

Issue:- What would be the human population (by 2100 almost 11 billion) when colonists start to leave for new planets, on average what would be size of each starting colony –very small no more than about a couple of hundred people per new colony at most, when you compare it to the existing canon Jump ship and Drop Ship technology it just does not make sense. That is unless there are tens of thousands to millions of Jump Ships and a corresponding number of Drop Ships to bring the numbers up to something more real – thus allowing for a sizable population to allow for a thriving colony.

Remember – if you have a small population you also have a small gene pool – the probability of birth defects increases – cousins marrying cousins until a new colony ship arrives with a new influx of people. How long could this take?

Politics – with an 11 billion population would not the politicians of the day want to ship off as many people as they could to reduce the strain on the existing facilities / government budget?

Then there is the issue of the exodus – two years in what could be considered to be nuclear submarine now – I have always wondered how the psychological effects of being locked in a room for two years would have on a society, and then you look at the Clans in the future and it all makes sense – completely deranged.

In my view there needs to be a complete revamp of the existing rules and a re-write to allow for a more realistic setting. In 2100 with a population of 11 billion colonies staring number should be in the thousands to tens of thousands – thus they need the industry necessary to start a prosperous colony – hence the large number of specialized Drop ships from which they can start a viable colony.

This is why I believe if a colony ship should be something like that of the Gundam Series – a central living area that is designed like an earth normal environment with green grass trees, lakes, rivers, houses – this will allow for a positive psychological environment for the colonists who could be within these ships for many years to reach their destination (consider those who went out to what would be called the periphery from Terra). This is why Behemoth size Dropships should be allowed to land on the planet and return to the Colony ship that is in orbit above their new home.

Nt: Each of these Colony ships needs a HPG built into them to communicate with a central Terran Colony control station – giving the green light for the next wave of colonists to be sent.

Thus over time some worlds could / should have multiple colony ships still in orbit above them – that is unless once the colony has been established over the next 50 years they slowly dismantle the colony ship and transport it to the surface – buildings etc for the colony.

To me this just makes more sense than that of the existing technology that has never changed since it was first envisioned back in 2100 – 2300 exodus period.
ghostrider
07/26/19 11:30 PM
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Well dropships out number jumpships. If any logic is uses, not all dropships leave a solar system. Some are large cargo shuttles.
There is some facts that seem to be overlooked in the observation.
First being, not all colonists go in the same ship. Unlike a lot of games, you just don't land a single ship and build the entire colony from that. An outpost, or maybe mining set up. Ok. But not a full colony.
Second. As the developers leave things vague, so they can come up with 'new' things, a large infantry ship, or even warship used for moving colonists is an option. The current rules are not set up to be the Masters of Orion or games like space colonization. They are set for war.
Third. It would be foolish to send all colonists that are going to the world in one trip. An accident on the jumpship would destroy all chances of it working. A small team sent out to start setting up some major things, such as power, water, shelter and such even in very mild conditions. It is very unlikely the dropship would be left on world. Possibly have enough food for the next scheduled ship to arrive. The SLDF exodus force was not a good example of such a mission.

That is unless there are tens of thousands to millions of Jump Ships and a corresponding number of Drop Ships to bring the numbers up to something more real – thus allowing for a sizable population to allow for a thriving colony. This was argued in other threads, so I would watch statements like this. (clan invasion counter assault)

Colonies are normally set to have an influx of people coming in, on a semi regular schedule. Or they are employees there for a set time, then rotated out to have time back home. So you are correct that is it highly unlikely a flotilla of ships carrying millions of people heading to one spot at the same time would happen.

thus they need the industry necessary to start a prosperous colony , Since when? Food colonies were needed far more then another factory world. Resources were needed to run the factories as well, so they were needed. Even to send the materials back to Terra and the Hegemony. Industry will rise as the need for it becomes necessary. It is nice to have a mech factory built when you land, but not necessary. You bring security forces with you. Even double time workers that provide security when needed, and work other jobs. Like city settlers did in the past.

Nt: Each of these Colony ships needs a HPG built into them to communicate with a central Terran Colony control station – giving the green light for the next wave of colonists to be sent. More then a few colonies did not want coms with Terra. Most wanted a life from under the government's thumb. The Terran government forced colonies to have escorts and soldiers to keep them under Terran rule.

Again. Unless you are going to waste billions to trillions of h-bills or c-bills on ships, you would NOT leave a ship at the colony, unless it is just a few people that have no intention of heading back. If nothing else, you would send some resources back with the ship to try and recoup some money for the next wave.
Requiem
07/27/19 08:26 AM
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First,
Colony Ship with colony drop ships equates to a colony;
Commercial jump ship with predominately mining and ore processing drop ships equates to a mining outpost;

Second,
The developers purposely miffed it up, when discussing the first great exodus into space there should have been a section discussing the wide variety of transport vehicles necessary to transport large numbers of individuals plus their specialized drop ship requirements to ensure a viable colony.
Yes the game is set up for war.
As an example of Colony War ….
However, when the third great exodus arrives (My Alt. Universe) – Where the new SLDF drive the Belligerent Clans from the IS – and is quickly followed by FC and DC corporations and individual colonists expanding both the FC and the DC space. So, what will happen when both the FC and the DC want the same world or when an existing colony becomes the target for a forceful eviction by an unknown group?
So the war continues upon a new front as colonists begin to fight for their new homes and the expansion of their home realms.

Third,
They are not going in one trip.
The first colonist ship and their specialized drop ships pave the way for all future colonists - and in the recent colonization, just as they did during the Americas – Australia – etc.

The Clan invasion was not a colonization – it is a displacement of the existing population by force …. all of the amenities were established – Where a true colonization requires the individual to start from scratch, and this will require a mass influx of individuals and their ships.

Industries are based upon a primary product – this can include agricultural, herbivores, aquaculture, viticulture as well as any technological sectors. To be a successful colony you need a variety of industries that can be merged together to establish as successful colony – physiological needs, safety needs to start with and then over time industries that fulfill the psychological needs and self-actualization needs of the colonists. And this can only be done when you have all the different drop ship types as noted above plus a size-able colony population to ensure its success – otherwise you are just looking at a temporary outpost.

Who said the HPG was communicating with the central Terran Government?
Historically the American colonies were initially set up by religious groups fleeing from government persecution - so if then why not in the future?

Yes a single colony ship is a massive investment but remember in the past many colonists burnt their ships upon arriving in the new world as a declaration of their intent.
The same could be said for the sips in the future – they can become a space station or be disassembled to manufacture new cities on the colony world or they could be sent home to pick up the next wave – it all comes down the philosophy of the colony and what they are striving to create.
Not all decisions are based upon the economic whims of the few – people who look to a broader future in an unknown land can be said to have a very broad and positive outlook that has not been seen in humanity for a very long period of time.
ghostrider
07/27/19 01:32 PM
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and is quickly followed by FC and DC corporations and individual colonists expanding both the FC and the DC space.
There is step one. The bases used to supply the forces hitting the clans would be a good start for a regular colony. Units stationed there would likely want to have family with them, or see a good start for them once the war concludes. So do you need the industrial powerhouse going? Not likely.

And attacks on those colonies was not in the main post. It was saying about creating colonies, not how to attack and take them over. The suggestion the rules need to be rewritten to allow large colony ships was. It really doesn't, as said before. War game, not pioneers of the periphery.
Take the standard designs or make your own with the rules in place. Not easy, but then that is why they are not done in canon.

Australia is a good example of another form of colony. The prison colony turned normal. Another good example of not needing the huge bustling factories to be set down before the colonists get there.
Most colonies don't start in their millions of people. They tend to be small ones, if privately financed, or the houses bring in what is needed, and done up the way they want it.

Yes a single colony ship is a massive investment but remember in the past many colonists burnt their ships upon arriving in the new world as a declaration of their intent.
This may have been the public reason (lies) but the real reason is to make sure no one returned or fled those that would rule the colony. More then a few wanted to return home after being at sea for Earth's history. Without a ship, they couldn't even steal it to get back.

Who said the HPG was communicating with the central Terran Government?
You did.
Nt: Each of these Colony ships needs a HPG built into them to communicate with a central Terran Colony control station – giving the green light for the next wave of colonists to be sent.

The same could be said for the sips in the future – they can become a space station or be disassembled to manufacture new cities on the colony world or they could be sent home to pick up the next wave – it all comes down the philosophy of the colony and what they are striving to create.
Most colonies would never get to this point in the lifetime of those that initially started it. Most colonies are made with a very low cash reserves, and that is normally spent with the initial run. A single city would not have the resources to make a space station.

Not all decisions are based upon the economic whims of the few – people who look to a broader future in an unknown land can be said to have a very broad and positive outlook that has not been seen in humanity for a very long period of time.
No. They aren't. But the way it was presented, it sure sounds like the super rich are the ones driving colonization. Normally that isn't the case. And when they do, they don't need a huge ship that carries thousands of people on it with enough equipment to terraform the world and create the Defiance factory all in one go.
First the assessors and scouts go in. Check out the world and possible sites to start. Then come in the first wave, with the shelters and such with possible farming equipment to get the people started growing, so they will not need a constant influx of food, which takes up space on the dropships.
Now for the big thing. You do NOT leave a ship in orbit. That makes it sound like few, if any, are on board. So the first pirate that comes along now owns that ship. Even normal people will find it hard to resist a multi billion c-bill ship, free for the taking. Even scrapping it for parts would net a fortune. And be hard to trace to bring up piracy charges.

Once the colony starts making money, does it start to attract large businesses, if not started by the rich. So over 20 or more years would this be going on. Not the 5 months like presented.
ghostrider
07/27/19 01:54 PM
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Sadly, I just realized why you are pushing for this.
There is no way to come up with a house level deep periphery realm for Victor and Omi to take over in the short amount of time they have left to live without a major exodus into that region.
To have the base, industries and such to hold off the clans, then the aspirations of the IS houses, there is no other way. And this is the keep along canon lines, which the alt can not do.

But if you are going to put up some designs, then do so. Otherwise, I believe this thread has run it's course. Or maybe it should be moved out of the category it is in, and put in the general one.
Requiem
07/28/19 04:12 AM
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Sorry, but I disagree that you don’t need the industrial powerhouse going to create a colony.

You cannot look to the past when considering how a colony is established – agrarian societies produce agrarian colonies.

To understand a future colony upon a distant world you would have to consider NASA’s plans to colonize either the Luna surface or Mars.

When colonies become successful they can generate considerable revenue – people and corporations will always want to take an established colony rather than build their own – hence the necessity of security force.

Large Colony ships just make common sense – unfortunately the games existing construction rules make these impossible – thus e necessity of re-writing the construction rules to allow for these ships. The colonization of the Periphery will allow the game a completely new story arc that it is currently lacking – why have the periphery and all the newly discovered worlds if you never do anything with them? The cannon as is is completely lacking in this area – a complete lack of imagination.

Australia – first fleet – 11 ships – close on 1,400 convicts (Not including military personnel)
So in the future if you had 11 canon colony ships for each world – how many thousand s of people would that equate to?
(Note on the side - South Australia was NOT formed from convicts - formed form independent and free people from England upon the HMS Buffalo)

In my opinion colonies would start in the thousands, however, by the end of the first 200 years of exodus travel you should be considering colonies being established with a population in the tens of thousands as the number of ships increases and costs decrease.

Since when does a Terran Colony Control Station equate to a government - this is just speculation – it could be an independent company and/or attached to a religious organisation.

Remember many religious organisations are very wealthy – thus establishing a new world for the faithful is a real possibility.

QUOTE: You do NOT leave a ship in orbit.
What good then is the inbuilt security systems or human security systems – from keys / to removing key parts of the engine – to security squads on permanent detail to receive HPG messages, relay weather reports / provide over-watch security – pirates in system / aliens / maintain a base of operations in the event of a natural disaster (forcing the population to flee the planet – mega volcano – start of a new ice age – medical emergency such as a plague etc.).

Thus these ships would be very well protected …..

Once a colony is established over 20 years the ability to evict its owners would not be possible – legally the colonists own the land, by then the Great Houses would have recognized this within their legal framework and provided some form of document / certificate of title granting ownership as the original colonists.

However, if within the first couple of months you can get rid of the original inhabitants and at the same time provide all the legal documents etc to a Great House you could quite conceivably be able to take over the colony – as for as the Great House would be concerned you own it legally (as long as there is no evidence to show how you got the land in the first place).

Given the level of technology available – the idea of the Colony Ship and the Colony Drop ships then if the colony began in sometime between 3070 -3090, it is very easy to assume that a new realm could become a reality within fifty to seventy-five years after its initial attempted construction and you could have a new Great House (Victor / Omika) with all of the people/ industry / agriculture necessary thereafter.

The idea of the Colony ship to the game should have been considered – Not only does it allow for the construction of colonies it will also allow for the construction of hidden bases upon uncharted worlds that could be deep within enemy territory from which to strike out at your enemy – a base from which to send out multiple raiding parties.

Colony ships also allow for a mobile military R&R base – hold your planetary assault fleet at a designated strike point prior to assault the base allows the soldiers time to relax – being cooped up on a drop ship for an extended period of time may cause performance issues when in battle due to high stress. A Colony – R&R – base can alleviate this!

Plus in the future (by 3025?) Colony ships will be re-purposed into cruise liners – Mass live animal feed transports – food / re-population of an entire stock yard etc –Governments using them to make worlds self-sufficient rather than relying on outside help … etc.

I am sure there are many other uses they could be put to if the rules were re-written to allow for their development as they should have been when the game war first considered.
ghostrider
07/28/19 12:43 PM
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With all the historical references to the past on almost everything else, now it isn't the basis for the future?
And I did not say you couldn't build an industrial powerhouse. I said you start with a small community, normally based on agriculture.
Where the issue with understanding this seems to be the amount of time it takes to increase up to that industrial powerhouse. You don't start dropping down a fully operational mining, manufacturing, and star port the moment you send out your first colony.

Large Colony ships just make common sense
How so? The entire history of the IS has been major warfare. Only colonies that seemed to be done was refugees running from warzones. Those that DON'T have money to buy a huge colony ship. A few outposts were created to take advantage of resources found, with habitable worlds having people go there to create a real colony.

Since when does a Terran Colony Control Station equate to a government
Since immigration off world was controlled by government agencies. The reason for smuggling off colonists was because of that very fact. Or did the history of the game get forgotten again?

What good then is the inbuilt security systems or human security systems
Locks are to keep honest people honest. There are overrides on systems used for any mechanical device. The Neural Helm Override comes to mind, as mech security is supposed to be one of the best. Then actually overriding the hatch access and other things like that. Even having the main codes for a system comes to mind. The biggest commercial software, Windows, has some. Otherwise, they could not get remote access to your system as well as figure out the problem without physically being there.
Stripping the ship for parts is almost as good as taking the whole thing. And with people being part of the 'colonists' that are actually part of those that would steal the ship/rob the colonists, I would say those are get arounds.
ghostrider
07/28/19 01:02 PM
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When did the periphery's law stop being those with the biggest guns control all when it comes to non house sponsored colonies?
The only real defense they have is secrecy. Especially deep periphery.
And the more people that know of it, that aren't with the colonists, the better chance of someone else finding out about it.

So in this case, there is no building a realm in the periphery that will rival the IS states, even the CC right after the 4th war, unless sponsored by the great houses. And that is not going to happen with the power hungry Katherine being in charge. Penal colonies may be done, but they will not expand into an industrial based society as long as she lives. It gives the opposition too much chance to oppose her. Or will logic fail here as well?

Black hole sized plot hole for the HPG idea. Who will build them? Last I knew, Comstar/WOB were the ONLY ones that could build them outside of the clans. And last I knew of, the clans did not sell them. The black boxes would not work as only military commanders would have them, and they would be watched to make sure they didn't disappear. Victor did not have the funds to even attempt to build or buy them. Yes. Some would fall into his hands from sympathizers, but that would not be enough.

Again. There are dropships in existence that can be converted into what is needed. Rewriting the rules isn't going to happen, nor would it be a good idea, just for colony ships. There isn't a huge demand for this. If you want to try, then go for it.
But don't try to justify this by suggesting those that want it, don't make their own ships to do so. There is no need for rules for this beyond what is there.

Bulk livestock transport. Mammoth that is internally pressurized. Same thing can be done with colonists. They have this suggested in the original jumpships and dropships book though it is pointed towards cargo that needs to be kept from freezing. The Monarch dropship is another one that could easily be converted. Any infantry dropship is the same.
Requiem
07/29/19 12:17 AM
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Actually I believe future colonies will start either from agrarian – water – mineral – in which all three will be require. A fully operational industrial operation together with a star-Port for commerce / influx of new colonists is a required necessity within the early days of a colonies establishment.

Only with a fully functional industrial and agricultural base can the colony survive and only with a fully designated star port and city can the colony prosper financially, economically, agriculturally and industrially and this can only occur through an intense immigration program to expand the colony quickly and efficiently.

QUOTE: The entire history of the IS has been major warfare.

And the only way you can get major warfare is through successful colonization and industrial advances. No Colonies, No People, No Agriculture / Water, No Industries, No States, No Weapon Systems, No Rivalries, No Warfare.

Colonies are the cornerstone upon which the entire history of the Inner Sphere is based.

With new colonies – For example my deep periphery example established by Victor and Omika – you get new rivalries and new warfare, you get new battlefields and new fronts wfrom which to attack and defend rather that the existing that have almost never changed from the days of the star League – you do not perpetually need an invasion force of expatriate Clans to create new realms within the IS to perpetuate the cycle of warfare. Something the game developers have clearly forgotten in the canon history.

Government Agencies cannot control colonization – foe example, if the Roman Catholic Church / Mormons could have the resources to set up their own colony …. So,good luck in stopping them …. also there could be many individuals / companies who due to their independent wealth could easily circumvent government agencies for their own agendas.

Where there is a will, there is a way!

Security systems include fighters and advanced long distance scanners (radar) as well as marine units permanently stationed aboard – so getting on board and taking it is not as easy as you may suggest.

Who would leave such a valuable resource undefended by personnel and weapon systems?

Even in the far future why are Jump ships not being so readily purloined, if as you suggest they are so easily acquired.

There has never been a colony that did not include weapons to protect them / assist them in taking / holding the colony so why assume in the future they did not go out with a mass quantity in weapons to hold what they have built – weapons and a sizable security detail would be included in any colony in space to think otherwise is a little naive.

Sorry but I can see many looking for a new life within the Deep Periphery …

Land and riches await those who are the strongest to take it. It only comes down the availability of ships to ensure a new exodus into the deep periphery. Many may at first follow the military as they push back the clans – some may be bandits / pirates looking for a new life – some may be looking to expand their mineral / agricultural wealth considering the IS is already 100% owned and operated new untapped resources could be used in expanding operations / increasing profits.

Do not be so quick to hit the, ”cannot be done button” – survival / greed is a very good motivator to look to the unknown for a more prosperous future for yourself and your family.
All you need do is look at all the colonies established in recent history to see the motivating factors.

HPG stations – Remember in my Alt. History there is still a SLDF which includes both ComStar and WoB – they will build them once a successful colony has been established they will also realise that there is mass profits for them as well – plus would they not want to keep an eye on an up and coming new realm and be able to “assist” them as well?

Plus there is also a third option – Helm Memory Core – what if Victor has the plans to make HPGs and he does so thus creating a realm where ComStar / WoB have no say what then?
This would make for a good plot twist – as long as he can establish the industries to make them he could very well have them created - run the economy into an initial deficit and repay once the major industries / agriculture is booming – Many governments use urban construction to kick start the economy – Roosevelt for example during the depression should be considered?

You do not need to have the cash on hand to get the government working on projects – deficit economies and making the grandchildren pay the bill for what is made now.

I believe re-writing the rules a little to allow for the creation of colony ships and their dropships is a means of expanding the game, it is in sore need of a new story arc that would appeal to those new to the game. The current story arcs are just too convoluted and almost require a PHd in IS History to understand what is going on and whom is against whom and why – this is a major road block to getting in new people and must be simplified otherwise many will put the game in the all too hard basket.

Plus establishing a new colony arc assisting it grow and thrive is a way more fun story arc (Wild Wild West) than the current dark age story arc where a majority of the HPGs stop working for an unknown reason … even writing it, HPGs are down and no one knows why, you want to just yawn!

It also doesn’t help the current story arc is so pitifully written.

The game needs a massive kick to get it revitalised and this cannot come from the current story arc – it is just not going anywhere – especially when the next book to continue the story takes well over a year before it is printed, and then when it is (if it is) printed it is in very small numbers and the only distribution point is the internet and not your local games store where mass advertising is also required to revitalise the game.
ghostrider
07/29/19 12:48 AM
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For example my deep periphery example established by Victor and Omika – you get new rivalries and new warfare, you get new battlefields and new fronts wfrom which to attack and defend rather that the existing that have almost never changed from the days of the star League – you do not perpetually need an invasion force of expatriate Clans to create new realms within the IS to perpetuate the cycle of warfare.
Well let's see. Lack of imagination to get the IS states into a war means having to rely on making a new 'realm' that logically, would never come about. And saying canon is screwed up as they rely on big logic holes sounds a bit hypicritical.
Now. Colonizing before and during the League era was done. It was done with the ships that are in use today, or maybe forgotten ones. Contrary to what may be considered necessary, having the Death Star moving colonists to new worlds is not needed. How many ships were used to colonize the world? From the argument, it had to be 2 or 3. Thousands didn't work, nor did industry get built slowly. It all happened at one time with one ship. Full mining/processing plants with rolling out hundreds of cars a day in less then a week.

Government Agencies cannot control colonization – foe example, if the Roman Catholic Church / Mormons could have the resources to set up their own colony …. So,good luck in stopping them
Get a clue. Going light years with a very limited amount of ships verses using a steady stream of ships going across an ocean or even to another land mass and going from there is no where near the same thing. But then the idea of distances and a lack of cheap transportation to get you light years away has been a bit of a mystery in this whole thing.

Security systems include fighters and advanced long distance scanners (radar) as well as marine units permanently stationed aboard – so getting on board and taking it is not as easy as you may suggest.
And who is doing this? The colonists? Or other resources wasting personnel that would be better used working the lands?

if as you suggest they are so easily acquired.
You are the one suggesting they are popping out people's behinds. I have said the game makes them seem like they don't have enough to cover more then the necessities to most worlds. The military has to conscript commercial ones from time to time to even do their thing.
ghostrider
07/29/19 01:01 AM
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There has never been a colony that did not include weapons to protect them / assist them in taking /
So those people creating a community in the mountains that never use a wagon did not happen?
Or better yet. The colonization of the east coast of the U.S. didn't happen, because wagons were not used to protect them. Ships dropped them off and they built from there. Oh wait. That history proves the first statement completely wrong, so it can't be used.

why assume in the future they did not go out with a mass quantity in weapons to hold what they have built – weapons and a sizable security detail would be included in any colony in space to think otherwise is a little naive.
I do know more then a few colonies had weapons with them, as they were made by disgruntled military units.
But let's go back to the reality of space travel. Ships can only carry so much. So do you load 4 mechs into a small dropship or do you leave them home and store tons of grain, water, parts for a purifier and such? There is no unlimited space in ships based on reality. And with the instant industrial giant, you need that space for the machinery. Or are you going to suggest the governments supply the military forces to cover for them?

they will build them once a successful colony has been established they will also realise that there is mass profits for them as well
You said they were to be done with landing of the colony, so they can send word to send the next batch of settlers. And if the SLDF isn't owning those worlds, why would they bother to put up the expensive HPGs on them? So someone else can run them?

what if Victor has the plans to make HPGs and he does so thus creating a realm where ComStar / WoB have no say what then?
And I supposed he just craps out the materials needed, as he doesn't have the funds or resources to do this as he has no base of power. The logic has really left the building here.

I believe re-writing the rules a little to allow for the creation of colony ships
You can do that now. It just requires having to actually create them, and deal with the fact, you are not dealing with ships the size of the earth to do so. Fix the rules before creating new holes.
Hmm. Why does creating a whole new set of rules that aren't worked out right sound familiar?
Requiem
07/29/19 01:49 AM
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Logically a new realm can be established

The Jump ships used current are just way too small to allow for large scale colonization – it is like being stuck in a submarine for two or even more years before they reach their destination – they are not built with the phycology of the colonists in mind - current Jump Ships are just cargo carriers – they in no way resemble a vessel that would be required for transporting mass colonists large distances over very long time period to establish a colony who knows where.

Did I suggest a small moon sized JumpShip? – Go and have a look at the Gundam Colony Ships – they are more I the size of Babylon 5.

Did I suggest cheap transport? Have a look at the wealth of many religions – at the time of the First Great Exodus they could very well afford to build their own shipyard manned by the faithful who could build their own small fleet of Colony Ships to establish their own little fiefdom if they wanted to do so …..

Personnel required for an effective colony
Command Personnel
Agricultural / Aquaculture / Horticulture etc Personnel
Industrial – Engineers and Machine operators etc Personnel
Water / Ground / Air / Waste Processing Personnel
Hospital Personnel
Electrical Generator Personnel
Vehicle Personnel – Civil engineers etc
Labourers
Security personnel
and many more groups should also be considered to achieve a successful first colony.
All the vehicles – includes security fighters that double as reconnaissance
All the houses
All the seeds
All the animals

Yes they would be easily acquired – they may not have top of line weapon systems a military force may have but they will be able to acquire something compatible to it – this is just a new market for aerospace companies to sell their wares to.

Remember what I am suggesting here is a total rewrite due to the games blatant holes – there is no way the existing Jump ships could have been used as a colony vessel – they are just not built for it – thus the need to recognise this error and fix it. As the GM of the game it wouldn’t be that hard to say most of the Great Houses have 100 – 200 of these vessels still in operation – they have just been reconfigured over the years into White Swan Cruise Liners – Transports for Live Meat - Military R&R bases or forward bases from which many raiding parties are launced – some could be currently inoperable (circa 3025) and are now operating as bases to charge the Jump drives of passing Jumpships – some could be in orbit around important worlds acting as a forward security base to protect these worlds with multiple squadrons of fighters or Dropships, they just need the necessary parts to get their engine working again.

I am sure others could come up with other ideas as to where they could be and what they are doing – so when the military pushes the Clans into the Deep Periphery may individuals / companies / governments may remember they have access to one of these ships – and with the newly acquired Helm Memory Core the ability to fix them – thus they head out into the Deep periphery once more establishing new colonies – the purpose for which these ships were built for in the first place.
ghostrider
07/29/19 02:20 AM
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there is no way the existing Jump ships could have been used as a colony vessel
The jump ships weren't colony vessels. They carried the dropships that were for colonists.
A jumpship would never be useful for a colony ship. They can not really be around gravity wells, as their thrust isn't enough to deal with it. So moving into a system is beyond slow and stupid


Did I suggest a small moon sized JumpShip? – Go and have a look at the Gundam Colony Ships – they are more I the size of Babylon 5.
I love this one. To my knowledge, not even the largest warship was 5 miles long, as Babylon 5 is. The game can not even begin to deal with this.
And as you will say that is why the rewrite is needed, remember this. Others will suggest that warships that size could be made then as well. So the entire unbalanced issues with warships become that much worse.

it wouldn’t be that hard to say most of the Great Houses have 100 – 200 of these vessels still in operation – they have just been reconfigured over the years into White Swan Cruise Liners
So there ARE colony ships in the game. So why the need for a rewrite? I can agree with fixing issues, but as there is no need for making up rules for colony ships, this thread is done.
Requiem
07/29/19 04:30 AM
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Can you imagine living on board a drop ship for two years or more at one stretch, even considering the size of some drop ships space would be a premium – the idea of a colony requires people so unless you have many dropships some with Just people some with just materials and some with just animals the colony is not going to go very far. Though the main issue is the psychology of the colonists – unless there is some new way of relieving stress that no one has identified you are going to have many people breaking down due to the duration within tight quarters.

QUOTE: The game can not even begin to deal with this.

Yes, this is why the game’s rules needs to change – start with small 1 mile long ships and over time build up to 5 mile long.

And Yes, warships also could be made this long! – though if you want to change them from mile to Km as per the Ghost Bear Leviathan then this is also a possibility.

And yes everyone should be able to make them so there is no unbalanced issues.

By 3025 all the warships have been destroyed (canon)
So this just leaves the commercial

By the time the IS removes the Belligerent Clans these ships are once more repurposed for their primary work – the establishment of the Colony.

Victor / Omika’s colony is established – over time becomes a new Great House.

Thread re-established – and yet we didn’t even touch on the idea as the size of the ship (tonnage) increases the distance it can jump decreases.
ghostrider
07/29/19 12:37 PM
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First off, there are people that live on jumpships, with one not touching a planet in over two years. Jumpship captain in the Grey Death Legion. So it is possible in the future.
There is no reason to have mile long ships. None. I can see stations, as they don't have to survive the stress of more then station keeping and sometimes being shot at. Moving as well as jumping would create stresses that would tear them apart. That is unless they become straight jumpships and never leave the jump points, with no pirate point abilities.
So the small moon colony ship would be made with this. 5 miles across, 5 miles tall spheroid. Developers don't need to add this mess to the game. It would violate their own rules to the point of most not bothering with the space concept of the game. They have done this with the super jumping WOB ships, as well as the monitors, Argo (dropships being able to have others attached to it while attached to a jumpship), as well as a few others.

And yes everyone should be able to make them so there is no unbalanced issues.
The issue isn't all making it, but the idea that one ship would be able to destroy a world in a very short time. Just 5 times the size of the largest means 5 times the fire power. Having a few of these while the enemy has none in system would have changed the outcome of the war. The complain of the FS losing 20 percent of their forces to the Kurita bombardment would be standard with a warship this size.
Saying the docking collars didn't create a problem with this, you could probably load up all 7 cruisis lancer RTCs and bring them in with a 5 mile long ship. This destroys the entire history of the IS. A lack of jumpships was the key to alot of tactics. This removes that issue.
The monolith jump ship could not even come close.

And again. The alt being illogical while trying to follow canon ideas, needs the rules to change to fit it.
Make your own house rules and drop the canon things have to be your way.
And as a side note. You said the alt didn't have the issues of a lack of ships. Why do you need the huge ships, when you have fleets of ships that could be used?
Though it still doesn't make sense to even do a huge colonization effort. A few supply bases, with a few small manufacturing sites to replace armor and ammo. Less areas that need guarding, meaning more forces to attack with. But then logic holes abound.
Requiem
07/29/19 07:34 PM
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First off, people who live on jump ships are small families – ever considered this with hundreds of people and they all, for the most part, have different personalities? The writers, again, never considered the psychology of people – just because they said ‘yes’ does not make it a plausible scenario.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/mental-health-in-outer-space/

Stresses – during the 30’s there was the Empire State Building 443m - and now we have the Burj Khalifat 828m

Engineering within 500 years and built within a zero G environment – who knows?

Just because the current rules say no doesn’t mean that a re-write down the track, or if they ever get there, by 3250 there are 5 mile long vessels within the game. This is science fiction – limited only by our imagination – who knows the Ghost Bears may one day create it – it is plausible.

Comprehension reading – again! – Everyone has 5 mile ships, not one person has them and everyone else doesn’t.

And sorry I do not believe their existence from the start would destroy the game –
You may have the ships – however you are still limited by the dropships and you are also limited by the number of worlds you need to protect and also by the number of attack in worlds you need to strike at.

Yes you could put all the lancers in one ship – but why would you? – as this would leave a massive gap in your defence strategy that your enemy would exploit . And no this does not destroy the Lack of jump ships myth because it was never there in the first place as there are no definitive amounts as to jump ships within the IS at any one time – it is all just made up as it went along!

And what about the idea of lost technology this would have a very large say to determine how many of these vessels are still operational by 3025.

The Alt does not need the canon rules - there can be new Home rules that can get around this it is just up to the Home Group and how they want their universe to be.

QUOTE: Why do you need the huge ships, when you have fleets of ships that could be used?

Colony ships provide an environment suitable for long distance colonization – psychology – animal migration – agriculture –aquaculture etc
Jump-ships as are now are just cargo transports – they are completely impractical for long distance operations.

Colony ships will also rationally explain the Kerensky’s Exodus as well as the Clans Return – as to the number of people being transported / industrial requirements (whole factories) / animals / seeds / water / Battlemechs and other weapons systems etc – as given the fleet numbers are completely unbelievable – dispel all belief in reality once you begin to crunch the numbers.

Sorry but the holes are not there – there is a rational thought behind this idea.
ghostrider
07/29/19 08:44 PM
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Sci fi game that does not follow logic or facts. So trying to bring in bs from the real world doesn't work.
Again. Make house rules and forget the rewrite of the game. Try promoting this on the official battle tech site. They are more able to deal with this.

Now first. The Ghost Bears did NOT come up with the plans for their massive people carrier. The Snow Ravens did. So suggesting the Bears might come up with something new is completely off logic or facts.

Comprehension reading – again! – Everyone has 5 mile ships, not one person has them and everyone else doesn’t.
Did you not understand that warships that are 5 miles long will destroy worlds without any help? One salvo and most things die that isn't the 5 mile ships and even then, that is not a given. All making them isn't the issue, but using them for war is. And no. This is not the smart way to go. Considering the complaint of the smaller warships being over powered, this idea is just increasing the canon oversight with them.

as this would leave a massive gap in your defence strategy that your enemy would exploit . This wasn't an issue with sending all your forces to stop the clans, why is it a problem now?
Having all 7 of your best forces RCTs able to land on one world would remove the enemies ability to survive quickly. That means NO guerilla actions or reinforcements landing un opposed. This is basic tactics. Overwhelm the enemy.

Jump-ships as are now are just cargo transports – they are completely impractical for long distance operations.
Are you missing something here? The dropships is where the people that are being transported tend to stay. The jump ship crews are the main ones on the jumpships. How is it impractical for long distance operations, as people, especially merc units with dropships move from one end of the IS to the other. Confusing the facts? Or trying to baffle with BS?

The game will follow the majority opinion of the players, not a specific few that are not friends with the developers. If you think otherwise, then post the ideas on the official BattleTech site. Or did they laugh you into a full ban?
Requiem
07/29/19 10:29 PM
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Looking at the Big Picture – just looking at some parts and ignoring the rest …. Fixated upon one aspect creates a false historical narrative.

Historically remember Japans atomic bombing and the completely wrong assumption that nuclear weapons forced Japan to surrender - Gen. Anami on Aug. 13 remarked that the atomic bombings were no more menacing than the fire-bombing that Japan had endured for months. If Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no worse than the fire bombings, and if Japan’s leaders did not consider them important enough to discuss in depth, how can Hiroshima and Nagasaki have coerced them to surrender?

So we have one ship that can kill a planet, and yet in the Jihad we have one drop ship that can do the same thing – so the point is what?

When you put in my rule that smaller ships are faster and larger ones slower – something this big would be a ‘tub’ in space who’s only real purpose is as a mobile fortress. Other-wise the smaller faster ships could maneuver like mobile torpedo boats amongst the battleships – refer sinking of the Austrian Battleship SMS Szent Istvan 1918 (film - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pSiCjfhUUw)

Overwhelming the enemy is one tactic – and yet what is happening to the seven worlds you removed these forces from to gain just one world? Considering it from just one viewpoint doesn’t work!

Comprehension reading again - When I refer long distance I was looking at moving with a time of two years and over? Have you ever seen a military unit sit in their dropships for two years awaiting orders – so confusing the facts?
ghostrider
07/30/19 03:00 AM
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Overwhelming the enemy is one tactic – and yet what is happening to the seven worlds you removed these forces from to gain just one world?
I don't know. Maybe having other units garrison those worlds while your assault forces deal with the enemy comes to mind.

Where did you come up with the Japanese atomic bombing not being the last straw to get Japan to surrender?
The devastation done, was enough to finally push the surrender. They were going to lose, as their Ally fell.
Was it the only reason they surrendered? No.

So we have one ship that can kill a planet, and yet in the Jihad we have one drop ship that can do the same thing – so the point is what?
The large ship does not need nukes to do so. And with them, as long as the fusion reactor provides power to the weapons, it isn't a one time shot, like a nuke. And now you suggest having such ships in the possession of the IS lords. Do you really believe they will not just bombard the hard target planets, and ignore your conventions?
Logic say they will ignore the conventions as the last one standing, wins. Or did your final word on becoming first lord get shoved to the back again?
For general games, this would absolutely happen. So instead of creating this so players can abuse it, the developers would not even consider it.

something this big would be a ‘tub’ in space who’s only real purpose is as a mobile fortress. A pure mobile fortress that could carry far more firepower and not worry about defenders other then another tub. Fighter regiments, as well as massed stores of supplies. Even a manufacturing plant onboard for taking raw materials and creating ammo and replacement parts.
Oh yeah. The original SDF from Robotech was only a mile long. Hmmm. Babylon 5 is 5 miles long and the only thing stopping them from becoming a mobile manufacturing plant was the fact it was as diplomatic station. Otherwise, you could use it as a base for invading other realms.
Requiem
07/30/19 05:46 AM
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Moving Garrisons Around – Steiner Archon Policy of Concentrated Weakness once more?

Atomic Bombs – this is real indictment upon the education system, including the politicizing of history …..

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

As with one drop ship having the ability to take out a planet – one drops ship can also have the ability to take out this 5 mile long monstrosity

IS Lords would use any warship no matter their size to bombard the hard target planet
The use of such a vessel is just returning to a first succession war mentality
And what about all the other warships within the game have players abused them as well?
And what about all the WoB Drones have players abused them as well?
And what about WMDs have players abused these as well?
The developers have allowed many items into the game that can be misused ….. so the point is?

You do realize that one 5Kt Alamo missile that is designed as an armor piercing round (could drill its way into the ship) and explode will cause a chain reaction that would destroy the entire ship from the inside out?

It does not matter how big your ship is one 5Kt Alamo nuke within the engine / magazine stores and the ship is so much scrap metal.

This reminds me – don’t put all your eggs in one basket!

Have a look at the history of the previous Babylon stations – the largest station ever created (larger than Babylon 5) was stolen by Valon, taken back in time, and used as a base to fight the Shadows to a standstill with the Vorlon ….. point is?
Requiem
07/30/19 06:23 AM
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Question – Even though you could make a 5 mile long warship would you?

I cannot believe anyone would be that stupid.

Would it not make more sense to build a fleet of a couple of thousand battleships / cruisers / destroyers etc – thus proving your realm with a greater strategic flexibility than that a one ship policy.

Plus how many decades would it take to build it, and how much would it cost – the cost alone would make it prohibitive from a weapons platform point of view.

So yes you can make it but at the expense of every other branch of your military and your entire civil economy.

So would you still create such a vessel ? Sorry but I doubt anyone would.

As for Colony ships – these are civilian multi-purpose ships with the center being hollow – costs are in no way as prohibitive as a warship.


Edited by Requiem (07/30/19 06:25 AM)
ghostrider
07/30/19 12:58 PM
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the politicizing of history
So opinion piece, that changes history to fit the persons thoughts.

The use of such a vessel is just returning to a first succession war mentality
So win as fast as you can at all costs, or die when the enemy does? Hard choice to make. Now if you have time to fight a more honorable war, then you can say to avoid this mentality. Guerilla/freedom fighters do things that the other side says is terrorism. When used against you, it is bad. When you use it, then it is good.
If you believe in full destruction of a nation isn't good, then stop with the annihilation of the clans. This shows the hypocracy of the thought.

There are a lot of things players abuse. But this just removes all ground combat from the game. So a game of armored conflict becomes Star Trek, or Battlestar Galactica. No need for fancy stompy mechs.
And with large ships like this, it would be beyond stupidly foolish to let a single shot be able to take out the ship. But again. A lack of understanding the rules or maybe the inability to follow them shows. The nukes in the game are not the equivalent of the real life nukes.

Do you really believe a colony ship of this size would be available to most organizations?
Really? Only the houses and maybe Comstar could afford such a thing, and as said about the warship version. It would be far better to have massed smaller ships for this purpose. And you are suggesting arming it to avoid someone else with guns from taking the ship?
And with this, any ship that isn't registered to be in a system should be shot out of the sky as soon as it doesn't respond quick enough to challenges.
But then no one would take one of these ships, load it up with ordinance, and drop it on an enemy world, framing those that originally got the ship, and taking out the hated enemy.
But then all colonists have several trillion c-bills to buy a one use ship.
Requiem
07/30/19 05:35 PM
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QUOTE: So opinion piece that changes history to fit the person’s thoughts.

Can I please suggest - read the document – It is a convincing in recognising the Japanese timeline and thought process leading up to and after both nuclear detonations and recognises the aims of the Japanese government at all times. It is a myth the nuclear weapons caused the Japanese to surrender – With Stalin’s army joining the war - this forced them to surrender.

QUOTE: This shows the hypocrisy of the thought.

Making an assumption again? Suggest reading Sun Tzu The Art of War; Machiavelli The Prince; Punic Wars; Gallic Wars; The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest

QUOTE: There are a lot of things players abuse. But this just removes all ground combat from the game.

This is where the game needs a little more work – if you have one warship in the game then there must be a way to defend / attack the vessel that is exciting for the game’s players.

Otherwise let’s just go back to 3025 – no warships at all – just the fighters attacking the Dropships / Mech drop pods.

QUOTE: The nukes in the game are not the equivalent of the real life nukes.

And yet everything else must be as realistic as possible?

Quote: Do you really believe a colony ship of this size would be available to most organizations?

Available to – All Great Houses – ComStar – Exceedingly wealthy corporations – Religions (Catholic / Mormon etc.) – Banks (Repossession)

QUOTE: And you are suggesting arming it to avoid someone else with guns from taking the ship?

A colony ship – just like a Jump Ship comes with weapons packages, however they also come with a flight deck to launch fighters and support shuttles from.

QUOTE: any ship that isn't registered to be in a system should be shot out of the sky as soon as it doesn't respond quick enough to challenges.

In which era, as this needs to be quantified as to available forces – however most / if not all ships are fitted with an automatic IFF system – thus negating the need for a challenge.

QUOTE: But then no one would take one of these ships, load it up with ordinance, and drop it on an enemy world, framing those that originally got the ship, and taking out the hated enemy.

Are we back to Gundam – when Zeon dropped a colony onto Sydney Australia?

QUOTE: But then all colonists have several trillion c-bills to buy a one use ship.

Isn’t this dependent upon how the vessel is built – its purpose?

Though most colony ships would be used to take people / goods back and forwards from Terra to who knows where with the ability to live within a habitable environment – and at 1G – psychologically and physically it would be better for the people to have a ship of this design than sitting in a dropship for a couple of years where the majority of the time is at 0G and you are going nuts because of the extreme close quarters – the animals must really love it (did anyone ever consider muscle atrophy of animals and people whist being in space at 0G for an extended period of time?).

Overall the idea is sound – Colony ships with a rotating cylinderal area in which a faux Terran environment is maintained – Hills, Rivers Small City Houses etc – in which the colonists and their animals live for an extended period of time (any where between one and four years) to reach their destination with a simulated Gravity makes more sense than that of a Jumpship and its attached dropships

That is unless you have an artificial gravity machine on board all of your Jump / Drop ships – then I would like to ask why are there no gravity weapons – Robotech Gravity Mine for example?
CrayModerator
07/30/19 07:35 PM
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Hi, folks, I'm seeing some drift toward real world politics in the nukes discussion. Keep it to the game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
07/31/19 12:20 PM
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First off, this isn't Gundam. If you want Gundam, go play it. The game had more then enough issues with copyright issues with Robotech.

Saying that the clans need to be wiped out, yet complaining that the FS is going that way in the newer story line is hypecritical. And yet letting Katherine back into power when all know what she is capable of is beyond this.

Now I am not sure of where you are getting your information from, but the 3025 jumpships only had one with a weapons package.

A ship this large jumps into your system, you verbally challenge it. IFF is nothing that can't easily be faked. Enough dropships change hands pretty regularly, removing a module from one and installing it on another ship isn't that difficult. And with this, you can drop a very large military force on worlds in the system. Best to know it's hostile at the jump point. And don't try to say a pirate point would work for something this large.
There are more then a few stories using this very ploy. Raiders tend to do this.


Though most colony ships would be used to take people / goods back and forwards
This is going on all the time. Why need this huge ship, when there are thousands, maybe even upwards of hundreds of thousands of dropships doing so?
And as for assumption, you are assuming the current ships are unlivable after a few weeks in space. The Whale liners are supposedly to be the best. But it was said the Monarch dropship was too soft for soldiers to be comfortable in.

Now, another assumption. When their parent jumpship is recharging, the dropships remain attached. Did you even think they would undock, perform 1 g burns to help the people feel better? It was said jumpships captains have done so when they were recharged, but waiting for a dropship to get to them.
And how do you think they got terrain animals shipped to all the worlds that are inhabited in the first place? The initial expansion didn't use cryo chambers for it. Live animals moved.
Requiem
07/31/19 06:12 PM
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I was under the impression this thread was about considering alternate ideas as to the existing Jump and Drop Ships as the current design process does not make any sense when it comes transferring colonists over a period greater than one year to their final destination. Psychologically and physically for both the colonists and the animals they are taking with them.

What I am proposing is just an alternate ship design and the idea alternate construction rules as well as a change to the distance any ship can jump should be based upon its total tonnage – as, surely this makes a little more sense than the idea that no matter how big your ship is they can all jump to a maximum set distance.

And yet here we go again wandering off topic ….. OK then you want to go there again ….. With Regards to my Alternate Universe Thread …..

Gundam – I was responding to your idea about dropping a ship onto the enemy (alternate orbital bombardment) so I made the quip ridiculing it!

First,
Removing all belligerent Clans from the IS does not mean they will be utterly destroyed ….;
Considering different groups other than Kerensky for their establishment does not mean they will be destroyed i.e. They were formed from ex-Amaris forces; and
Even when I considered the people’s uprising upon the Clan Home Worlds they are not destroyed –they just undergo a change to their way of life.
Second,
The current Invasion by the CC and the DC into the FC due to the one single battle where the writers decided the DC could kill off 20% of the AFFS via an orbital bombardment when they had this single force upon one world, at the same time, makes no sense whatsoever. And yet making no sense whatsoever has never stopped them before in writing sub-par doggerel ….
Third,
Establishing a General of the Army as the next Archon of the Steiner State is so ludicrous it should be held up as being on par with the Huntress ludicrously – when it comes to not returning to the IS with a complete blueprint of Clan technology as well as all the factories and personnel to run them.
During the Jihad if her brother did resign the throne it would make more sense that Katherine would return to take the throne than allowing her to remain with the Wolves and allowing a commoner on the throne (As this totally goes against the Lyran Culture and their legal framework as to the rules of succession).

As for a 5 mile long ship – yes I agree this is ludicrous size (However if someone wanted a ship this large within their game I do not see the point in telling them they are wrong – it is their game let them create their own universe without prejudice) but getting hung up on the size of the ship needs to be put to one side as a minor factor – however the underlining idea is not – that for a colony ship it should a central cylinder, in which it rotates at a constant one gravity and over time and can be increased / decreased so that it can simulate their new home worlds gravity over time – thus getting the colonists / animals ready for their new world.
By having an internal environment similar to a rural environment – trees, grass, lakes, streams, and houses – this will allow for a more positive environment both for the colonist’s psychological and physical needs when they are within space for a long period of time.
Remember, the internal environment can also be used as a training environment for the colonists to prepare them for their new home – this is invaluable experience for them over the time it takes for them to reach their destination.
These ships would also explain the transfer of large populations over a relatively short period of time when it relates to – the first exodus all the way out to the Periphery – Kerensky’s exodus of millions of people (where the numbers per ship do not work at all) – the return of the Clans utilizing such small number of Jump Ships – and my Alt. History new exodus to colonize the Deep Periphery.

Yes a Colony ship would also be a mass drop ship carrier – a colony requires a massive amount of material to be transported in correlation with the population of the colony to ensure its viability.

Yes a Colony ship should also have a security force for the ship itself but also for the security of the colonists – this would include marines, armour, air defence units and aerospace fighters at the minimum.

A colony must be prepared for all eventualities and this includes hostile eventualities by any threat – human or otherwise!

Dropships do not have gravity – they are small and they are cramped – their use does in no way explain live transport of people and animals for extended period of time – muscle atrophy – by the time they reach their new home they would need physiotherapy prior to living on the new home world - their use does not explain the psychology of the colonists locked within a small environment for long periods of time – their use does not explain mass transportation of colonists (that is unless you have a massive fleets of Jump Ships and a corresponding massive fleets of Drop-Ships over a very long period of time)

Verbal Challenge
This would only occur …..
First, when the system has been colonized;
Second, when that colony has the electronics, surveillance equipment, that is necessary to detect the incoming vessel;
Third, there is an existing station situated at the jump-point to view the incoming ship; and
Fourth, this is a military game so how you use it militarily is completely up to you and your game master to determine its merits / viability.

Drop ships performing 1 Gravity burns – first, this would be sporadic whereas with a colony ship it is permanent and can be increased / decreased over an extended period of time – second, Fuel – third, what if a complication arose, how are you going to arrange a rescue mission?

As stated above for live animals – they could live in a field within a colony ship (no stress / natural environment / waste product can gotten rid of naturally) – whereas with a drop ship you would need the same conditions as a live animal transport ship that is used currently to transport sheep / beef from one country to another – may I suggest you youtube a video of these conditions - it is the most despicable of conditions on an animal and should never be considered to be a viable means of transporting live animals for extended periods of time (over a year) - the colony ship is the only rational means of transporting animals for an extended period of time.

What about the storage of feed and water, this must be a considerable amount when you consider the number of animals necessary for a viable colony.
How are you going to store all this feed and water and the animals at the same time?
Waste product, who is going to clean their holding pen per animal and what are you going to do with it.
And then there is the smell (within a cramped environment) the people within the same drop ship will not be happy about this.
Also when you have animals within a cramped environment, if one comes down sick they will all come down sick. This could very easily lead to the loss of the whole herd when you are transporting them for an extended period of time.
What about communicable diseases when it comes to animal waste product – within a cramped environment such as a drop ship. This would have to be very closely monitored as the chances of a colony member catching something dangerous would be high.


Edited by Requiem (07/31/19 06:32 PM)
ghostrider
07/31/19 07:45 PM
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I was under the impression this thread was about considering alternate ideas as to the existing Jump and Drop Ships
But yet it turned to trying to make the game fit the alt. Like almost every other post.

It is funny that the alt is so horrible, yet the alt continues to follow it. Changing rules to fit the alt is fine for you and your group, but when posted here, it sounds so much like a complaint fest it isn't funny. You don't like the canon, then don't play the canon. Most here aren't thrilled about having this alt thread being shoved down their throats. Change this, yet don't change that. Yet it is done in alternating threads. Yet some how, that point seems to be missed.

The original thought for the alt was all clans. Nothing was said about belligerent clans.

Now as for ship sizes being the rule for jumping farther, that doesn't really fit to well. A larger drive should hold more energy to send a craft thru the 'portal' for a jump. How much weight is on it might make a difference. IE a Monolith with one drop ship or by itself should jump further then a full one. And even with that, the full one should jump further then a scout jumpship.
Much like a catapult verse a trebuchet.

Establishing a General of the Army as the next Archon of the Steiner State. Victor should have regained the title. Katherine was incarcerated, so couldn't be considered. Yvonne would be next. But then at the time, moving the ruler of the state was more important then who was picked. I don't like the fact Adam got it, but then I don't know the who story there. But does it mean it is wrong? Not at all. It means your little merc group wouldn't worry about who is in charge, except when it comes time to be paid.
Players are NOT supposed to change the course of canon. They are meerly the sideshow.
ghostrider
07/31/19 07:58 PM
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As for a 5 mile long ship – yes I agree this is ludicrous size (However if someone wanted a ship this large within their game I do not see the point in telling them they are wrong – it is their game let them create their own universe without prejudice)
Ah. But there lies the key. Saying the rules need to be rewritten to conform to YOUR ideas is the problem. As with almost all of the posts, the presentation is where the problem lies.
The rules are stupid so they have to be this. That is how most of the posts comes off. Demanding all conform to your ideas. Not 'hey. Here's an idea. What if?'
And it always returns to has to be your way.

By having an internal environment similar to a rural environment – trees, grass, lakes, streams, and houses – this will allow for a more positive environment both for the colonist’s psychological and physical needs when they are within space for a long period of time. Hydroponics gardens can do wonders here. Maybe D&D Spelljammers might be better for you. Put the magic helms on a chunk of land and create an Arkship. That is in the rules for Spelljammer. No need to say it has to be your way as the canon doesn't fit.

And the fact that they can stop at worlds and let the people stretch their legs hasn't come to mind?
If the Mammoth is too small, then use a behemoth. Just don't try to fit all the garbage in one ship. A single deck could be laid out to have most of the attractions. If not under power, then the water fall would not be in operation. Simple burns to create the gravity is being ignored as well.

how are you going to arrange a rescue mission? Same could be said about the large ship. And with all the garbage you want to bring, multiple ships would be used.

Again. You want a large ship, that's fine. Don't come in saying the rules have to be changed to fit your vision.

this must be a considerable amount when you consider the number of animals necessary for a viable colony. A colony can survive without bringing livestock with them. Not sure if their target world has some sort of meat to hunt or domesticate, but then they should have scouted the world before sending people there. Maybe even having a few ships take the supplies there before loading up the main colonists.
Wow. What a concept. To have a large chunk of the buildings done before the people get there.
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