ghostrider
06/08/20 11:59 PM
66.74.60.165
|
I call a leader that allows a child to die, then replace them as most any leader running operations against an enemy. I don't like or agree with this, but it is something that has been done more then a few times.
I think that the weapons flowing to their military to keep them safe from the clans is would be more supportive then you want. And as said before. If it worked, and the government kept with it, they could have taken the FWL without that much effort. But again. This seems to just want to focus on an obsession.
And yet again, you say continue to say that replacing Thomas isn't an issue as Comstar got away with it.
A child who has done no wrong cannot be compared with a terrorist!
How did this statement come from this: Intel agents replace people for missions, sometimes they kill the person they replace. I hate that fact, but for some people, it is required to remove them from life. People like terrorists comes to mind here.
Twisting the facts like you are, the fact that Joshua was only living on life support and wasn't even there was why they let him pass. They did not smother him with a pillow, or anything else. They did what most would do when there is no more chance of life. And Joshua would not have survived the first jump, much less all that were needed to get into FWL space, much less to Thomas. This seems to be missing from your argument. And saying prove it is the same thing you need to do. Prove he would have. You can't because he wouldn't survive.
Fact. Yvonne did not lost the faith of the public as suggested. She was conned into thinking she did. More then a few would have figured Katherine did something to take full control over the FC, such as blackmail Yvonne. But this counters your view, so isn't possible at all. Only viable vision, including canon is yours.
Keep trying. More then a few revolutions put up puppet rulerships, while the power stayed with the one that lead the victory. The fact that they did not print every last conversation that was done, says your comprehensive reading is only putting in things that aren't there. And as Katherine killed their mother, he had every right to decide the fate of his sister. It was stupid that canon didn't run this way, but they had plans. Oh yeah. No one knew Victor would actually stay away from the position afterwards. And with this, more then a few should have shot her. Morgan Kell being a big one.
When is it legal for someone to give away someone elses property or rights? OOOOOPS. Guess that legal argument has no bite to it. Yvonne was a regent, not the princess of the FS.
|
ghostrider
06/09/20 12:32 AM
66.74.60.165
|
… and yet ComStar got away with it! This is the difference, their agent was able to act with impunity ….
This is one of your statements, which says that it was ok for Comstar to place an imposter on the throne. This is condoning such actions. You praised this as they got away with it. So yes. You did say that.
Maybe you need to see what is going on now. The supreme court has become a political arm of a certain person, and they are reversing old convictions to fit the new political scene. There is more then a few things they can not judge. If you think they can, then they could remove a president and place in someone they like more. Or remove the FDA, or CIA. They can't. So no. They do not have ultimate power to say what is right or wrong.
Following Melissa's character, and the fact she RAN the FC, there really isn't opinion but fact Melissa would not have dissolved the FC. She would not have left the Terran March to fend for themselves. And with this, would not have even allowed Gemini to be initiated. There would have been more time to train Victor properly. Do you think she would just sit back and let Katherine start her crap and not do anything? Retired Archons have come out of retirement to take the reins when one of their successors started becoming a tyrant. But again. Katherine would never have gotten that power.
You mean comprehensive reading did tell you that quietly talking to her supporters would remove their support for her doesn't mean she was blackmailing them, or allowing them to break the laws for their own benefit? So why would he do that privately? Oh yeah. That would mean having to actually believe Katherine was a tyrant.
Being appointed to a case and being impartial is necessary to judge it properly. At that time, there would have been no judges that could do this in the LC. So where do you get they can be appointed. All would benefit if they ruled one way or another. The trail would constantly be a mistrial. Maybe that law degree you have needs to be returned.
Victor thought his family would do the job until he returned from his missions. He was mislead to believing that Katherine wasn't the person she turned out to be. So vulnerable is no where near what happened. No foreign agent seized the throne, though one of the regents did conspire with them. So this is a wrong conclusion that it was vulnerable.
So they did not resist them being taken? Doesn't that go counter to all people rising up to revolt on worlds taken by the clans? And with that, how many were worried that Katherine would destroy them if they had willingly given up those supplies? She destroyed a few that resisted in recognizing her as leader of the FC.
Actually, the idea that Katherine was ruler was NOT what the average person thought in a more then a few areas. The units that were fired on where loyal units to the nation, not her. As much as you want to say she was the legal ruler, she was not. She was regent, not Archon. So pulling the LC out of the alliance is illegal. The estates conspired and committed an illegal act to recognize her are ruler. They also showed they were not impartial for the most part, and those that decided against her were punished. This is not a free society, but a dictatorship.
Only in a dictatorship does one commit genocide on a unit that said the order was one they could not obey. So the entire LC, then FC was turned into a dictatorship. That violates the entire founding principals of either state.
Verification codes? Interesting as those codes were not as secured as you want to believe. More then a few times, a forged order went out and was obeyed, letting the enemy win. And even with this, why would they believe the ruler would authorize them to head to the front lines, and replace them with a unit that was better equipped to deal with the clans? Or strand them in the middle of now where, especially when they knew it was to destroy them? Oh yeah. Obey or die.
|
Requiem
06/09/20 07:41 AM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
And yet again, you say continue to say that replacing Thomas isn't an issue as Comstar got away with it
As far a s canon is concerned he did get away with having an imposter until the Jihad era.
As far as I (and science) consider that a large explosive within a solid brick room with no windows and just one door is that everyone within the room would have become pink mist! Thus the idea of him surviving is all but impossible.
Quote:
Twisting the facts like you are, the fact that Joshua was only living on life support and wasn't even there was why they let him pass.
…. And refusing to even attempt to return him to his family …. How much warning did the medical profession give Victor? ….. and how long would it take to create a pony express to the FWL?
Someone should have asked Victor when he was old and had children of his own whether he would have gone through what he did when he was younger with regards to Joshua? My bet he would have been thoroughly embarrassed by what he did.
Quote:
Yvonne did not lost the faith of the public as suggested. She was conned into thinking she did.
… and being the basket case that she was she just handed over the throne!
How many protests were written about when it came to Katherine taking over the FC throne – I cannot remember one quote that was made on this subject! Did even one media organization support Yvonne? – no one will ever know as the level of detailed information has never been provided.
Quote:
And as Katherine killed their mother, he had every right to decide the fate of his sister.
First – taking it from the point of view of complete knowledge obtained within the Novels and not how an average person on the street with limited knowledge would understand.
Second – from a legal perspective as Victor has abdicated he has NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER – he is within Lyran Space thus only the Lyran Judicial system / Archon can make a determination as to Katherine’s future – by not going down this path Victor is GUILTY of assisting Vlad to kidnap a Lyran citizen (Katherine) ….
Quote:
Regent
Look at the law –
The Regent is the title held by a noble WHO RULES in the name of the King, Queen etc. because the rightful ruler is a child, incapacitated or otherwise incapable of ruling with any degree of force.
The Regent HAS THE TOTAL LEGAL AUTHORITY OF THE RULER UNTIL THE TRUE RULER ONCE MORE IS ABLE TO RETURN TO THE THRONE.
This is exactly the same situation as is the President of the US required an operation, a form is signed, the VP takes over – then in the future when the president is once ore able to resume her/his position - when the second Document is signed - the President once more assigns her/his duties. And whilst the VP assumes the mantle of the President they have the full powers as that of the President.
Thus Yvonne is quite within her legal authority as Regent to hand over the Crown to Katherine and there is nothing anyone can do to stop her as Katherine is still the legal heir to the Federated Commonwealth.
Quote:
The supreme court has become a political arm of a certain person, and they are reversing old convictions to fit the new political scene.
Since when? …. You could even appoint new Judges to the bench in an effort to find impartiality ….
Quote:
Retired Archons have come out of retirement to take the reins when one of their successors started becoming a tyrant
Which one and for what reason ….
The removal Victor – Katherine will have the power it is just a matter of time.
Quote:
The trail would constantly be a mistrial.
Under what reason?
The Jury cannot reach a unanimous verdict;
A Juror committed a misconduct;
The Jury was improperly drawn;
The Jury was provided evidence it should not have had; and
A key figure in the Trial becomes unavailable.
Quote:
So vulnerable is no where near what happened. No foreign agent seized the throne, though one of the regents did conspire with them. So this is a wrong conclusion that it was vulnerable.
Sorry but I can’t interpret this and the next paragraph ….. Yvonne was not vulnerable – none of Katherine’s agents conspired to produce reports that would indicate discontent with Yvonne that would make her reluctant to be on the throne – but someone else conspired with her to give up the throne?
Katherine interfered with logistics causing people to fear that she would destroy them because she wanted those logistics.
Sorry but I do not understand what this relates to?
Quote:
The estates conspired and committed an illegal act to recognize her are ruler.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lyran_Commonwealth
- the Estates General ratifies the position of Archon
- the Estates General has since grown into a true parliament
- the Estates General works with the Council and the Archon on policy compromises for the good of the state
- The Archon is the head-of-state of the Lyran state. They are also the commander-in-chief of all Lyran military forces, including local militias and private armies, and has the authority to make any and all decisions relating to domestic and foreign policy.
What the Estates General did was all above board and legal!
Quote:
This is not a free society, but a dictatorship.
Please prove it – Book and page number ….. for I have yet to read anything that suggests the individual persons liberties were ever curtailed under Katherine’s ruler-ship of either the LA or the FS.
Quote:
Only in a dictatorship does one commit genocide on a unit that said the order was one they could not obey.
What else is expected when a military unit does not obey the chain of command and opens fire on the legal unit sent to replace them? Legally, if the unit supporting Victor had attacked one that supports Katherine then they are guilty of mutiny – Katherine is well within her rights to have the belligerent unit who started this fight brought to heel
Quote:
Verification codes? Interesting as those codes were not as secured as you want to believe. More then a few times, a forged order went out and was obeyed, letting the enemy win. And even with this, why would they believe the ruler would authorize them to head to the front lines, and replace them with a unit that was better equipped to deal with the clans? Or strand them in the middle of now where, especially when they knew it was to destroy them? Oh yeah. Obey or die.
If communicating is this bad then how can Victor remain on the front lines with the 10th and at the same time communicate with his Government – Does Victor’s Government communications come via different method than that of communications for the Military?
Thus if communication is that bad Victor is definitely endangering the FedCom Government.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/10/20 03:38 AM
66.74.60.165
|
You praised the replacement of Thomas, and condemned Victor. Victor did not do it to take over the FWL. That is the big difference. And you continue to say that Joshua should have been sent home, but would have died quickly on the trip. That would be murder, knowing he would not survive the trip. And it is very doubtful Thomas would have gone to see him before he passed. No matter who's child it was, having them live with a disease that they will never get better, and only get worse, the human thing to do is let them pass. You think it is better the cause more pain and have him die in space, that is your choice. I don't think many would support that view.
By the way, it would have been far more monsterous to even attempt to send him.
It seems you miss so many facts that are printed, then want to know where they were at. Both the Draconis march and Capellen march had protests when Katherine took over. It is part of WHY she started trying to starve them out with the trick of missed schedules and such. And yet you miss that as well. Maybe comprehensive reading to you is just looking at the cover and saying it was read. For most, it involves reading the WHOLE book, and the words in there, then judging what was written.
So Victor had no right to give up Katherine to Vlad, yet you say he had NO authority to even hold her. He had no authority over any unit or region. So what could Victor do? He didn't command any of the units as he abdicated. So by even trying to refuse, he would set off a war that he did not have any authority to do? Logic fail here.
Until Victor is incapacitated or dead, he is the heir to the throne. Katherine is second. He did return and what do you know, his position was usurped by another. Where does the law sit here? In reality, with the person that gives the judges the best bribes. The taking of the throne is completely illegal. So all the bs saying she was legal, isn't correct. And as in the past, were usurpers and the stoolies, she ended up losing. Her efforts to seize the power, ended up destroying the FC. Spin it as it makes you think it was right for her to do so, it isn't.
|
ghostrider
06/10/20 03:58 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The current judges being put into position in the supreme court, are done so as they are judging for certain people. They are not doing anything for law or the rule of law. They are doing so, as they can allow certain people to commit crimes and let them off. The dropping of the case where someone lied to congress under oath is only one of a few things going on. Now enough of the supreme court.
A matter of time. You said that waiting is not her style. So how long would it be, before she went after Melissa? Oh yeah. She went after her when she found out Victor asked her to stay on a while longer. That gave Victor more time to become the hero of the realm, making removing him that much harder.
Katherine would make sure that the truth was not told, and lie about everything, until her loyalists in power, could stop the trial cold. Witnesses would turn up dead, and mysterious fires could burn down any location that stored any information on the case. And to be honest, why would you hold a public trial for a traitor? Consorting with the enemy is being a traitor. But then it was not just one but two, with one of them being multiple times. In this, she tried to destroy her own realm to get at Victor.
People were not suppressed under Katherine? Go read the books. This is one of the biggest bs statements so far.
From the wiki on the FC war: When a local political leader was deemed dissenting or disloyal, Katherine punished his or her whole planet with economic sanctions, such as rerouting shipments of luxury goods. This led to civil unrest, sometimes against the political leaders of the respective planets and sometimes against inner or outer enemies, or even herself.
Katherine also regularly bypassed the military chain of command and gave direct orders to units, creating confusion and encouraging cronyism. Additionally her orders were often so vague, that the commanding officers knew what she wanted, but all the blame would be put on them if anything went wrong. These units were used to restore order on the aforementioned rebellious planets and to secure planets with important installations. One such planet was Kathil with its shipyards. Two chains of command collided: Sharp words were traded and each side considered the other as traitors. In the end, open warfare was inevitable.
No ones rights were suppressed. Go read the books.
Wow. You mean Victor had someone actually carrying the more sensitive messages, instead of just sending them thru Comstar? And as written above in the wiki, she did NOT give orders that were clear and concise.
|
Requiem
06/10/20 01:01 PM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
You praised the replacement of Thomas
Refer 06/08/20 07:48 PM
“Sorry I have never done this …. What I did say was that the idea of Thomas surviving a large explosive within a heavily bricked building (with no windows and one door) as impossible – an explosion of this type, and in a room of this type, should have turned him into pink mist!”
Quote:
Victor did not do it to take over the FWL.
Bred for War Page 124 –Thomas (fake) - “My son is dead and Victor Davion has Killed Him.”
Question: How did Thomas know this was Victor’s endgame, all he knew is when you replace someone you do it to replace them permanently – that is the reason why he the fake Thomas replaced the real Thomas by ComStar.
All he knew was that Victor was in on the Fix and as such he acted accordingly.
The attempt to get him home to be with his family is not murder – it is the only compassionate act he should have done.
Quote:
It seems you miss so many facts that are printed, then want to know where they were at. Both the Draconis march and Capellen march had protests when Katherine took over.
As stated previously – Book and page number.
Quote:
yet you say he had NO authority to even hold her
Where is this written that I said he had no right to hold her? This is a straight prisoner transfer – Department of Justice and Archon authorization to transfer the prisoner from the Federated Suns to that of Arc Royal..
Though the question must be why there? There are many far more secure worlds where she could have been placed?
Quote:
Until Victor is incapacitated or dead, he is the heir to the throne. Katherine is second. He did return and what do you know, his position was usurped by another. Where does the law sit here?
How did their Grandmother (on their mother’s side) get to become Archon? Coup d’tetat – against Alesandro.
However Katherine’s were both through legal means – The Estates General Ratified her as Archon and Yvonne as Regent gave her the Federated Suns.
Quote:
Oh yeah. She went after her when she found out Victor asked her to stay on a while longer.
Bread for War 21 May 3057 –Katherine telling Caitlin that Ryan Steiner killed Melissa – that he believed she was destroying the Realm when it came to the question of dealing with the Clans.
Quote:
That gave Victor more time to become the hero of the realm, making removing him that much harder.
Difficulty has not changed – he is still the 10th / he still has issues when it comes to Omika.
Quote:
Katherine would make sure that the truth was not told
And Victor is such a paragon of virtue he would never lie or create false documents or fake children in a hospital to get his way (satire)
Quote:
People were not suppressed under Katherine? Go read the books. This is one of the biggest bs statements so far.
As stated many times before – Book and page number.
As stated previously – Katherine is the ruler therefore she holds the highest rank – thus iif she deems it necessary to send a personal message to a commanding officer of a unit she well within her rights to do so!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/10/20 10:05 PM
66.74.60.165
|
… and yet ComStar got away with it! This is the difference, their agent was able to act with impunity …. posts 5/28//2020 at 5:03 pm.
This very much sounds like praising Comstar because they didn't get caught. So you have praised them for doing so.
Please. We know you would have said he murdered Joshua if he had tried to send him home, as the first jump probably would have killed him. He would not have survived to get out of the Capellen march at best.
But the statement that Thomas did not know about his intentions until after he found out his son was dead is very true. Victor did say he did it to keep weapons flowing to the troops, but then being believed at that time was almost impossible.
Go back and reread your posts. You said he had no right to do anything to her as he had abdicated. Anything says more then a few things including just holding her. As you said, he was not part of the FC.
Katrina did NOT have the general estates go against her uncle to give her the title. He resigned. And yes, that is because of blackmail. So if it was a coup, then it was a bloodless one that the civilians didn't find out about.
It is not legal to cover for someone and then give away their rights. A CEO working for a company while the owner is gone, can not legally give the company to anyone if they are NOT the owner. Just can't do it. Being Yvonne was not the owner, she can not legally give away the first prince spot. And Katherine was only CEO of the LC. She seized full control illegally.
And with this, you say that Kell and others swore an oath to Katherine, but leave out the fact that everyone swore an oath to Victor when his mother was killed. So you want to harp on oath breakers, start there.
How does her lying to Kaitlin change the fact that she went after her mother when Victor asked her to stay on?
And people tend to view a war hero as someone that is better suited to run their government in the war torn IS. And had he succeeded with removing the clans, would have been in all of their hearts. Even just showing he was willing to die for the FC was enough. He did not send others to their deaths and sit in the capital drinking fine wines to celebrate their deaths. Missing this angle on things, or just ignoring it as it stops more of the accusations?
From the wiki on the FC war: When a local political leader was deemed dissenting or disloyal, Katherine punished his or her whole planet with economic sanctions, such as rerouting shipments of luxury goods. This led to civil unrest, sometimes against the political leaders of the respective planets and sometimes against inner or outer enemies, or even herself.
This is in my last post. Punishing the whole planet for someone's opinion is suppression. How about just being VEIWED as disloyal? This does not even say the planetary ruler but local political leader.
|
Requiem
06/10/20 11:10 PM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
This very much sounds like praising Comstar because they didn't get caught. So you have praised them for doing so.
… and yet this is in no way praising …. It is a statement of fact!
Quote:
We know you would have said he murdered Joshua if he had tried to send him home, as the first jump probably would have killed him.
And yet people with medical issues jump all the time …. Soldiers via a MASH unit being sent home for more extensive surgery comes to mind.
It all comes down to when Joshua was diagnosed as being terminal and the time it would take to conduct a pony express to the FWL.
Still does not change the evidence Victor with motive of forethought allowed Joshua to die alone just because it did not match with his political expedience issues.
Quote:
You said he had no right to do anything to her as he had abdicated. Anything says more then a few things including just holding her.
First, Victor was just transferring her to her final destination.
Second, when she stepped one foot on Arc-Royal as Duke of the Planet – she became Duke Kell’s / The Judicial Department of the Lyran Alliance and the Archon’s problem.
Third, Victor and everyone else within the room who assisted in Katherine’s abduction (as she is still a Lyran Citizen at this stage) by Khan Vlad of Clan Wolf is guilty of committing a crime – assisting in the abduction of a Lyran Citizen by a foreign national. What makes it even more heinous, is that at the time of her incarceration she was a Prisoner of War – thus not only is Victor guilty of abetting her kidnapper, her is also guilty of violating her rights under POW articles – thus making everyone within the room guilty of war crimes against a POW.
Quote:
So if it was a coup, then it was a bloodless one that the civilians didn't find out about.
Except that it was written within every history book.
Quote:
Yvonne was not the owner, she cannot legally give away the first prince spot.
Except this has nothing to do with corporation law – and has everything to do with that of Regency Law.
Apples and Oranges.
Quote:
How does her lying to Kaitlin change the fact that she went after her mother when Victor asked her to stay on?
Except that Katherine informed Kaitlin that she had nothing to do with the assassination it was conducted by Ryan and Ryan alone – yes they were working together on other political objectives – by Ryan did this strike on his own as he feared what her mother was doing in regards to the Clan issue!
Quote:
And people tend to view a war hero as someone that is better suited to run their government in the war torn IS.
Can I laugh now? ….. look at every IS leader that remains of the front line for an extended period of time, how often are they killed off thus creating an issue with regards to succession and the transference of power … then compare it to those leaders who remain on their capitol world – on the majority they live far older and more productive lives.
Quote:
had he succeeded with removing the clans, would have been in all of their hearts.
Except he agreed that they could only kill off one Clan – and on return to the Inner Sphere he did nothing to preserving the new SLDF and directing that force against a second and then Third etc Clan until all of the belligerent Clans had been removed from the IS …. Thus proving he was only able to act in a half ______ manner and is quite incompetent as a ruler for not preserving the security of the realm.
Question since Eisenhower when was the last ruler a military figure?
Quote:
When a local political leader was deemed dissenting or disloyal, Katherine punished his or her whole planet with economic sanctions, such as rerouting shipments of luxury goods.
What did the ruler do what was their crime? Military Embargo’s have been around for a very long period of time and are still being used today in order to effect political change.
This is a normal political tool … https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions
Embargoing a country is a far better tactic than the alternative – sending in the troops.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/11/20 02:15 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The exclamation point at the end of got away with it sounds like a praise. You didn't condemn it and defended what they did.
Joshua was diagnosed as terminal before he was sent to the FS. They were hoping to be able to change that, but only allowed him a few more years of life. Joshua was not killed to advance Victor's political agenda. He was kept alive since the time Hanse said the NAIS would look after Joshua as a way to get the weapons needed to fight the clans. Yet again, another thing stated that is wrong. Read the books word for word. Stop adding in your words that aren't there. It continues to show up in your statements that you haven't read the books.
The fact that you claim Victor had no authority over anything shuts down the accusation he gave Katherine to Vlad. Face the facts here. He didn't have the ability to say the FC would fight Vlad. The fact is, he did not need to have the Wolves striking at the FC at this time as he knew the forces that remained would be depleted beyond protecting the realms. Even Phelan knew this as he did not even bother to challenge for Katherine to stay in prison. It would have given him the chance to kill Vlad, once and for all. That might have actually allowed the Exiles to go back in the main wolves.
So you say that a prisoner the killed their mother, destroyed the FC, then proceeded to continue her reign of terror on people that didn't drop to their knees the moment she walked into a room had any rights? Honestly, she should have been executed or put in a real jail, where those the put in there could do to her what she did to them.
How does Katherine telling Kaitlin change the FACT, Katherine had her mother killed? Ryan was blamed by Katherine but it doesn't change the fact Katherine had her assassinated. Moran knew she killed Melissa.
Still not addressing the fact that Melissa was in charge while Victor remained in the field. Only thing that destroyed him learning was Melissa's assassination. And even then, he was not the low level sneak that you want as a leader. He was more upfront honest. Had he not been, he would have blamed Katherine for a lot more then what he did.
Had Victor proceeded to remove the clans he would have been a war hero. This means the Falcons and Wolves from inside the LC portion. Not sure why you jumped ahead when the statement was about his continuing to be with the 10th instead of being on the throne. Removing the one clan was a DIRECT result from the reformed SL. This was AFTER he asked Melissa to remain in power, and kept fighting.
Stop the bs of the excuse of comprehensive reasoning. When a leader said no, she punished ALL on the world. That means even her loyalists.
What did the ruler do that was a crime?
Told her he wasn't going to become a patsy for her. That he was not going to kneel for the person thinking they were the new coming from the heavens. And she did send in the troops to destroy those very leaders as well as anyone in her way, once she realized they were not going to submit because of her actions. This is part of what started the civil war. Guess this point is difficult to understand. HER actions cause the war, not Victor.
And where in history is there a regent that legally gave away a title while the actual person was away? Titles were stolen, as well as leaders being exiled, but from what I know, not a single regent gave away a title. This was done in the story line to move it along, as there wasn't much else they could do to bring about the civil war.
|
Requiem
06/11/20 05:02 AM
101.185.79.245
|
Since when did an exclamation mark conform to praise when making a statement of fact?
An exclamation mark in this case is used to show emphasis.
Quote:
Leukemia
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Joshua_Marik
Type of and stage of will have a massive determinant in treatment and length of life.
Quote:
Victor had no authority over anything
Facts,
1. FedCom no longer exists – it is now FS and LA;
2. Both realms leaders have been enthroned following the ratification of Victors abdication documents;
3. Victor is now once more with the ComGuard;
4. Victor is only transferring a prisoner of war from one realm to another following Yvonne exiling Katherine for life.
5. As Victor has abdicated his position of both realms he has no standing whatsoever as to conducting foreign policy or Judicial policy for either the LA or the FS as he is not a member of either’s Government and he is also no longer a citizen of either state as he is now a citizen of ComStar.
Thus in this situation only the Duke Kell has the authority.
Also it should have been obvious that for the Wolves to Fight the LA they would have to go through the Falcons – and any attack upon the LA would have to factor in the Falcons attacking the Wolves rear in regards to multiple Trials of possessions etc. Plus there is also the possibility of the Bears engaging in Trials of possession for Wolf territory at the same time.
There is also the internal Clan Wolf political situation that must be considered Vlad is acting in a very un-Clan like manner when it comes to requesting Katherine – something Phelan (who is present) should have pointed out.
When adding this all up there is a very good chance that Vlad is bluffing as he doesn’t have the ability to conduct a sustained war – Plus there is the fact that the ARDC is more than capable of engaging any clan force Vlad sends their way (as they were not part of the Civil War and of which Phelan’s Wolves in Exile would have been happy to assist).
Thus as Victor has no standing he should have kept his mouth shut and Duke Kell should have given the reply.
Quote:
So you say that a prisoner the killed their mother, destroyed the FC, then proceeded to continue her reign of terror on people that didn't drop to their knees the moment she walked into a room had any rights?
First – this statement is from the point of view of all the information from the Novels and not an average Lyran citizen.
Second – Under Law she is innocent until proven guilty in a court of Law.
Third – She is also a Prisoner of War and as such is afforded certain considerations.
Fourth – also conducting additional research - As the former Leader of the FedCom – Katherine can also claim immunity as she was the leader of a realm.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity
Thus making it all but impossible for Victor or anyone to bring her to justice.
Quote:
Ryan was blamed by Katherine but it doesn't change the fact Katherine had her assassinated.
It does change the fact that Katherine is asserting that Ryan did it and she only learnt of it after the fact.
The Fact still remains that the so called evidence is circumstantial and is NOT the smoking gun.
Quote:
Moran knew she killed Melissa.
No, Morgan chose to believe the circumstantial evidence and Victor’s narrative.
Quote:
Still not addressing the fact that Melissa was in charge while Victor remained in the field.
And what happens when Melissa is no longer there and Victor remains in the field? Katherine is in charge.
There is also the point that Victor was late for his own mother’s funeral when all the other children were able to make the funeral – insensitive much?
Quote:
This was AFTER he asked Melissa to remain in power, and kept fighting.
This was after his mother’s death – his sister taking the Lyran Throne – his war with the FWL and the CC – his abandonment of the Chaos March – him refusing to remain on the Capitol World and remaining with the 10th (a Lyran unit now within the FS) – him refusing to rebuild his military during the 15 year truce period …..
Quote:
What did the ruler do that was a crime?
Never qualified within any of the books thus it could be anything ….
Quote:
HER actions cause the war, not Victor.
Sorry, no this is inaccurate – with Peter’s assassination Victor blamed Katherine and declared War – and a point that Victor was never able to prove this just adds to the conspiracy theory that Victor stated the Civil War just to get back at her for splitting the FedCom in two due to his actions with Joshua Marik.
Quote:
And where in history is there a regent that legally gave away a title while the actual person was away?
How about Caroline of Ansbach (1683 – 1737) and every other regent who gave up their position for the rightful ruler?
Quote:
This was done in the story line to move it along, as there wasn't much else they could do to bring about the civil war.
And yet a good author would have multiple methods of starting a civil war rather than the what was provided and was never followed through because they had lost the plot … and as such a sub standard story was manufactured.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/11/20 11:41 AM
66.74.60.165
|
OH! So Victor DID have the authority to put Katherine in a jail cell. Hmmm. Another misconception put to rest.
As said, Yvonne gave him the authority to jail Katherine. No one said he could start a fight.
Since Katherine was in FS space, she was under the FS laws. And Katherine can not claim immunity as she was the loser in a civil war. Which may well be one of the reasons she was not put on trial. Twisting words of laws get more then a few guilty people off the hook.
The statement was Victor remained in the field while his mother was still alive. It was not said it was after she died. So trying to twist this is going to get called out from now on.
First off, the war was already going. Victor joining it only gave then unity.
Second, Victor's reason was based on an attempt that was later proven wrong. But that still doesn't change the fact that Katherine was destroying lives that didn't just bow down to her. As the print said In the wiki, Hasek did not recognize her as head of the FS, as well as others. The dictator did not bother trying to resolve this in any civil manner but started trying to starve some out. Then sent in the troops. She was doing this BEFORE the war started.
No one said they were good authors. They are game developers. The ones writing the novels didn't keep with the rule set, so there is that issue. But again. As much as you say it isn't, it is their story for their game. They could have Alexander Kerensky be clone thru the DNA they have, and it would stick.
But there is something that needs to be addressed.
Joshua died when they pulled the plug on the life support. You claim Victor was going to use a double to take the FWL throne.
Katherine killed her mother in order to take the throne.
Which one is worse? Killing family to take power, or letting someone die, and if you go be the average person, trying to take an enemy's power base?
The only horror factor was the fact Joshua was a child. A single child. It isn't like assassination plots haven't killed them before, like using bombs, or battles doing so. Millions died in the past and millions more will die in the future.
So again. Who is really worse?
|
Requiem
06/11/20 04:07 PM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
Yvonne gave him the authority to jail Katherine
No, Yvonne requested of ComStar (Victor) to transfer the prisoner (Katherine) out of the FS (where she was now exiled for life) and transport her to the LA world of Arc Royal, where she was to be held for the remainder of her life.
Quote:
Katherine cannot claim immunity as she was the loser in a civil war
Actually – she may be able to claim sovereign immunity – but this still doesn’t change the issue that there is no evidence whatsoever to charge her ….on either the death of her Mother or that of her brother Peter.
Quote:
The statement was Victor remained in the field while his mother was still alive.
He is supposed to the Heir of the FedCom and he wants to remain with the 10th in highly dangerous situations – especially since the last time this occurred he had to be dragged onto a Dropship and removed from the field of battle.
Then when he became the leader of the FedCom he still believed it was acceptable is what should be called out.
Quote:
First off, the war was already going. Victor joining it only gave then unity.
This is historically inaccurate – what is happening is various units are in the process of mutinying against the chain of command – it is only with Victor’s inclusion does these petty mutineers receive political accountability.
It is Victor’s actions alone that started the Civil War.
Quote:
Second, Victor's reason was based on an attempt that was later proven wrong.
So, Victor’s reason for starting the Civil War, Peter’s apparent assassination, was proven not to have been on Katherine’s orders. Thus Victor’s only real reason to continue the war is petty vengeance as he does NOT have any evidence as to sister’s guilt.
Quote:
But that still doesn't change the fact that Katherine was destroying lives that didn't just bow down to her.
Show me any ruler that had a 100% favorable poll – plus she is well within her legal rights to change shipping in the event of an emergency.
Quote:
Hasek did not recognize her as head of the FS, as well as others.
Katherine is the legal head of the Fed Com – Hasek is her Duke and as such owes her his fealty – if he does not provide this then Katherine is well within her legal rights to bring him to heel if he steps over the line.
And if you keep reading on Hasek took great pains NOT to step over the line.
Quote:
Then sent in the troops. She was doing this BEFORE the war started.
As stated many times she is well within her legal authority as the CO of the FedCom Military to put down a mutinous unit.
Quote:
No one said they were good authors. They are game developers. The ones writing the novels didn't keep with the rule set, so there is that issue.
Where are the editors and fact checkers? In other novels of this type authors take great pains to make sure the facts are accurate and believable given the circumstances their characters are portrayed within.
If a statement / event was made in the past it cannot be ignored for future events within the game just because it is creating interesting dialog / setting. There are rules to the societies they have created and as such it is expected that these rules be adhered to – if you begin modifying these rules because they become inconvenient down the line then the entire story has now become a pointless diatribe.
You cannot just go changing social, technological, military norms just because they suddenly get inconvenient – lives like that, very messy – I expect the rules and the story to be adhered to based upon past assumptions made. You cannot just change the universe just because you want a certain event to occur and you are given the reason ….just because …..
Quote:
Joshua died when they pulled the plug on the life support. You claim Victor was going to use a double to take the FWL throne. Katherine killed her mother in order to take the throne. Which one is worse?
Question which shade of black is darker? … this is a personal choice and as such cannot be compared to another person’s sensibilities …. And attempting to rationalize the issue does in no way make it somehow acceptable just because it has occurred in the past ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/11/20 11:51 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Prove the fact that Victor had no evidence. Supposition does not counter the writers saying that he did have it, and was showing it to her supporters. In the alt, there isn't an issue, but you continue to say canon is wrong and that things you don't like, didn't happen that way. I have to take the writers word that the story is correct, and anything else is just trying change this fact.
It is his right to be in the field for as long as he wants. I did not hear of anything bad happening, besides Katherine's tactics that happened when he was. It does suggest that the ruling family was not really needed, as the government works without their input. Nondi and Tormano ran it while Katherine was out of contact. It ran well enough with Victor out as well.
It is the person who steps in and says that killing people you don't like is at fault for a civil war? This is completely against all moral teachings. The tyrant that does kill to force people to worship them is the one at fault for civil wars. But given some of the other responses, I can see why this isn't the case in your opinion.
At the time he stepped in, he did not know Peter was alive. So the idea he knew this before he stepped in was wrong. And the civil war had already started. As much as you don't like this fact, the only thing he did was give those opposing Katherine unity in their opposition. And once he was involved, their was no getting out without one side winning. Her cruelty demanded such actions and would not abate until she was removed. Twist it as you want in the alt, canon is correct in him keeping with it.
How many civil wars start from a ruler having even 51% of the people saying they are doing a good job? Normally it is a majority that say they aren't that start civil wars. So your argument about not having full support holds no water.
And read even further, where it says he supported Victor. He just tried to keep out of the line of fire, as Katherine would have started destroying the Capellen March because he did not support her like she wanted. She had already been starving worlds before she started pushing Yvonne into a corner. And yet again, you can not give away a rulers right to govern if you are not the ruler. It is how civil wars start.
She sent in troops to destroy those units without even trying to get them to obey her illegal orders. As stated, she did NOT use the chain of command, but ordered them DIRECTLY to do things that were against what the military stands for. You said might doesn't make right, well this argument says you don't believe that.
The key word in your argument is assumptions. They are free to change things as they want, since you only assume what they really have going for them. The assumption before Katherine went on her tyrannical rampage seemed to support she was a better diplomat then Victor. When she started killing her own people, starting with her mother, that all changed. So that assumption was wrong. Life experiences change people as well. Sometimes it is a false statement, but enough to change how the person reacts. You say they need to keep with their characters traits, yet you don't know what they were. The assumption you do is where things are off. The writers have a better idea of their characters then you do.
Your entire argument with a lot of things here, are based in the past and said to be right in the future. Killing your own family is worse then allowing a dying child to die naturally. There was no way to stop Joshua from dying. That is fact. Ordering your own family's death is very much stoppable if the only one that gains is yourself. So genocide of your family is far worse. You continue to say that assassinating family is right as it was how those in the past gained power.
So don't even try the garbage of the past statement.
Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne. Her ascension was done illegally, as those that supported her was breaking their oaths to the heir. The only bad thing the estates can say about it is it was caught. Otherwise, had the actual intent to take over the FWL family would have been applauded.
|
Requiem
06/12/20 04:07 AM
101.185.79.245
|
Evidence – what evidence?
Financial and taxation documents regarding a piece of land.
A story Katherine told to Caitlin.
Any documents Ryan Steiner maintained were completely destroyed.
Everyone with any first-hand knowledge, except for Katherine herself, is dead.
Those that were captured by Victor were placed into black ops sites and were “interrogated” by professionals – one escaped (Dancing Joker) and the other was slipped poison – thus making any information they provided will be excluded due to the providence of their accuracy,
The Bloody Princess series that was used to attempt to draw Katherine out - the results of which can be considered to be subjective at best.
Quote:
Supposition does not counter the writers saying that he did have it, and was showing it to her supporters.
Subjective evidence is not definitive evidence – if he had definitive evidence then Victor would have gone to either the courts or to the people. By not doing either there is nothing definitive.
Quote:
It is his right to be in the field for as long as he wants.
If Victor was an ordinary citizen I would agree – However Victor is not an ordinary citizen he is the ruler of the Second largest empire in human history to think you could rule it from within the cockpit of a Mech is the height of hubris – as well as endangering the realm for which he was supposed to serve.
Quote:
I did not hear of anything bad happening, besides Katherine's tactics that happened when he was.
Pitiful writing is no excuse.
However if you asked …. Taking it from the 15 year truce period ….
Rebuilding Jump-ship production facilities …
Rebuilding and expanding the Military for future anti Clan Activities …
New Weapons development Infantry, Armor, Aerospace, ‘Mech, Warships etc
Increasing economic development of the Federated Suns … especially monetary and fiscal policy to ensure the proliferation of SL technology throughout the Federated Suns
Establishing joint training with all SLDF members
Revising Legal issues with regards to the SL.
Trade policy with regards to the other Great Houses to ensure future Anti-Clan development activities remains at a point that will ensure final victory over the Clans
Reducing Un-Employment figures within the FS
Establishing war strategy meetings in developing a comprehensive tactical program – this includes the mathematics of war – logistics – depletion reports etc
Establishing a spy network within the Clan OZ zone of operations to ensure optimal intelligence – enemy numbers – personnel information – logistics – timing with regards to replacement personnel that will be needed to be factored into the equation
Looking for strengths and weaknesses of the Clans
Civilian development of a total war footing program to ensure the Next war with the Clans is based upon an attrition program.
The area surrounding the Clans – all worlds will be needed to be converted into fortress world and staging facilities for the next Clan War ..
Then you will also need to review all information as to you existing “allies” within the new SL – intelligence operations – economic – technological etc etc
Most of which was completely ignored within the novels.
Quote:
It does suggest that the ruling family was not really needed, as the government works without their input.
Sorry no I do not believe this could ever be considered factual when you consider the amount of work required by a leader – please refer back to the web sites suggested on this topic.
Quote:
It is the person who steps in and says that killing people you don't like is at fault for a civil war?
It is the person who starts a civil war based upon an faulty (no) information … who should be held to account.
Victor put the war into high gear when he joined it – and he joined it because he believed Peter was murdered by Katherine – a point that was completely in error – Victor started a war based upon no information whatsoever other than his gut feeling … and for that he should be held to account.
Quote:
Her cruelty demanded such actions and would not abate until she was removed.
Again this point of view if from the Novels as being a part of Victor’s inner circle. From the point of view of an ordinary citizen this becomes a completely different point of view.
Twist it as you want Victor based his war upon a lie and he never allowed the people to know the truth – Katherine had nothing to do with the Peter’s assassination –How can you trust someone who starts a war upon inaccurate information the optics of this war then come back to petty revenge when Katherine broke the LA free of the FS?
Quote:
How many civil wars start from a ruler having even 51% of the people saying they are doing a good job?
All of them – depending on how the population splits at the start of the Civil War –
England – Cavaliers and Round Heads / America – North Vs South - how many on either side supported their side when they went to war? The majority of their side? How many did not support either side at the time of the civil war. So my argument still holds.
Quote:
He just tried to keep out of the line of fire
He?
Quote:
She sent in troops to destroy those units without even trying to get them to obey her illegal orders.
Legal orders were sent through the Chain of Command.
Rather than obey these orders they opened fire upon their replacements.
They mutinied against the chain of command.
They refused to listen – this left Katherine one choice but to use force (which is legal given she is the ruler of the realm).
Quote:
she did NOT use the chain of command, but ordered them DIRECTLY to do things that were against what the military stands for.
She is the commander in chief she does NOT have to use the chain of command if she does not want to.
Quote:
The writers have a better idea of their characters then you do.
When looking at many of the main characters within the history I would not agree with this assertion ….
Theodore Kurita and his Father Takashi Kurita – Turtle Bay – completely against the samurai character …..
Hanse Davion – not killing of the CC as well as his action during the Clan Invasion – completely against character
Victor Steiner-Davion – if he was brought up correctly the idea that he would remain with the 10th for the length of time he did is highly questionable
Katherine Steiner-Davion – the idea that she would kill her mother first is completely ludicrous – Victor has and always be the primary target.
Yvonne Steiner Davion – if she was brought up correctly she would never have been the basket case she was portrayed as
Adam Steiner and the Estates General – this is perhaps the worst of the lot – a career soldier who would accept the position of Archon when his liege lord has a son … time to get real!
Historical figures
Kerensky – as regent he is perhaps the most inept figure in history – the idea that he would just up and leave is beyond ludicrous.
Kerensky’s eldest son – it is beyond any comprehension that his “Clans” as well as his idea of creating castes could ever be considered factual –
The entire Clan Society as written is just a completely bad Joke.
The fake Thomas Marik – the idea that a person can fool so many people with whom he has had so many relationships with is incredibly difficult to believe especially when you look at micro tells many people give everyday as to their personality – hand movements , body language, facial expressions – anyone close to Thomas should pick up quickly that there is something wrong.
Quote:
Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne.
With Victor on the throne the rules of succession would say otherwise.
And her assention was done legally – the emergency power clause has been put into effect –she has been ratified by the Estates Generals – all legal!
Quote:
as those that supported her was breaking their oaths to the heir.
Then what does this say about Duke Kell and Arthur? He broke his oath to Katherine when he supported Arthur - what about everyone who supported Victor, at this point in time Victor was no longer the ruler and as such any support of him is illegal …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/12/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The amount and type of evidence is supposition when saying it isn't enough. As the only suggested some of it, and not shown all of it, there is no way to say what is what. Victor left the murderer in charge of the FC, as he did not want to start the civil war that he was pushed into. So he was subtle about hurting the FC. It is very possible, that the evidence would have started off civil riots and such, as it shows just how much of their taxes goes to crap things.
Again. Victor knew Katherine would make a mockery of the courts, and to try the public meant giving her a platform in which to twist everything around. And as the point you shown. He did NOT have the authorization to even go there. Remember. he was a person without the power to prosecute this. So Yvonne and Arthur would have had to make this decision. OOOOPPPS?
And before you try that it was his evidence, it came from the same sources that they would and did use. MIIO and LOKI.
Actually, the game does say that strides were made to rebuild the FC. It was not the amount you wanted, and as it seems you think that waving a hand will build a shipyard in a year, that doesn't make is so. The Fireball mech is a prime example of what happens when you rush a design. Also, the shipyards restarted warship making, which doesn't just pop up when you want it to.
Everything you focused on is all military. The civilian sector benefited a lot from upgrades as well. Now let's see about funding. You want them to build more factories and such, yet have to rebuild their forces. So which is it going to be? They are down on taxes being brought in, as the clans took more then a few worlds. Then they also built up more defensive positions on worlds that were threatened but not invaded. The fact the Falcons made a mockery of that with their drive, shows the clans still had the edge, though they did invade at a bad time for the FC.
Establishing networks don't happen with a hand wave either. They would have been doing so during the war, but trying to find the people capable of doing anything would be a challenge.
|
ghostrider
06/12/20 12:20 PM
66.74.60.165
|
What work is required for the leader to do? Pose for pictures? Attend meetings to inform them of what is going on, only to have the people running the departments handle it? Saying they have an idea, and handing the work to do it to someone else? Seeing courtiers trying to con them into helping those asking the court for help or money? Talking to the politicians as they do the same? I can see why Victor would stay in the field. Politicians tend to be slimy con artists.
The civil war was going before Victor came in. The decision came from thinking at the time, Arthur was dead. The concept that Katherine killed him was very plausible as she killed her mother. Everyone else would be far easier to order their deaths. It was after a while they found out Arthur was still alive. But that was the last straw of a long line of issues. So what? When they found Arthur was alive, he should have said sorry and stopped his participation? Katherine had Omi killed only because it would hurt Victor. She would have liked to have used her as a means to destroy Victor otherwise.
Hurting an entire planet for the opinion of a single leader is not cruelty? Arresting those very leaders and no one ever sees them again is being nice? The people started seeing this the more it went on. This is why Victor's forces were victorious. Otherwise, they would have been wading In revolts and resistances in every turn.
Logic fail. If the leader had so many people siding with them, a civil war would not have started. So all of them starting then depending on how many supported them does not compute. The ruling leader tends to have lost so much of the populations support, that the only real threat to stop it is the military. And that didn't do much but postpone it until even more turned on that leader. So no. Having 51 percent of the people on your side does not lead to a civil war.
George Hasek. He tried to keep out of the line of fire, but supported Victor. The Capellen March would have suffered like others had, when Katherine turned her attention to them, and they had a very pissed off CC to protect against. With Katherine already making that problem worse with her meddling, they would have lost worlds if there was open fighting. The CC would have gained a lot of traction.
Reread the wiki. She did NOT follow the chain of command, and the top brass knew to follow those orders would be setting them up for prosecution of crimes. Firing on civilians is one of those orders that a unit can say they can not follow those orders. Something that seems to elude you.
And this next part really shows a lack of understanding what the chain of command is. You tell your chief of staff, which tells the top brass in the command HQ and so on down the line. Orders are written up to deal with getting the job done without going too far. Or setting up mission perameters. Otherwise, the troops may well cause more damage like looting places. Also, who is in charge of what operations comes about. The only time a direct command is given is when the leader is personally there, and even them, it goes to the top officer. It is the social generals that destroy operations when they insist the troops do what they want when they want. It is illegal in the military, but the political power causes the issues on wiether they do so or not.
|
ghostrider
06/12/20 12:34 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Again, the lack of understanding shows. Takashi would not have ordered is military to blindly strike out at the Jaguars, as this would be a death sentence for the DCMS. Not saying he didn't want to, but to do so, would have destroyed any chance of keeping the DC intact.
The CC in the 4th war was supposed to be about punishing it for the double operation. He was trying not to be seen as a greedy land grubbing leader, though I do agree he should have raided heavily, if not taken Capella with it's ship yards.
The case of Adam really shows a lack of understanding. The fact that the LC needed a strong military leader at the time and Peter's son was not it shows this. Also, as said about Katherine, why would Adam refuse to take that power? You suggest all wanted the first lord position, yet the first step towards that would be Archon for the LC. So where is the logic that Adam would refuse? He didn't kill anyone for the spot as well.
Again, the fact that Victor was still alive says Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne. The clause for the separation was so that before the alliance was cemented with the first born taking over, it would give the LC a safety clause incase the FS demanding a new war, or that the FS could get out if the social generals were not removed from the military. The archon-prince had the power to stop it, as they were over the archon. If not for the years of manipulation Kathrine was doing, she would have failed in the attempt.
And a person with no sympathy could very well draw a large following, as they are smart enough to know what drives people. Power and money is about alls Katherine would have to offer the General Estates to get them on her side. She did not have to care a single bit for them to do this. They could hate each other, but if they both gain from an agreement, then it will be done.
|
Requiem
06/12/20 09:16 PM
101.185.79.245
|
The only team looking into this was Victors’ team (or the lack of there of …) in the from agent Curaitis and Francesca – they were operating on their own and completely off book - however in this case you will need concrete proof otherwise the entire operation is for naught.
The MIIO and LOKI agents however were on the side of the Government i.e. Katherine at one point or another – as they had no knowledge whatsoever as to what Curaitis was up to.
As no definitive information was ever discovered – all Victor has is his supposition regarding a piece of land and its underlying bank accounts together with attempting to link individuals with this piece of land and this is not enough to convict anyone in a court of law – It will however produce multiple conspiracy theories as to Victors ‘true’ motives during this period of time.
Quote:
Everything you focused on is all military.
Civilian programs that must be be addressed –
Rebuilding Jump-ship production facilities … The entire realm’s economy and military capability is based upon their number of jump-ships fix this and many of the underlying problems within the realm can also be fixed at the same time.
Consider the number of Jump-ships that were prevalent during the Star League Era - The aim of every state should be to return to this level and surpass it asap.
Increasing economic development of the Federated Suns … especially monetary and fiscal policy to ensure the proliferation of SL technology throughout the Federated Suns
Reducing Un-Employment figures within the FS
As for the Clans having the edge this is a massive misnomer it is not so much about the factories themselves but what is being produced within them – where are the massive number of Omni Mechs, Vehicles, aerospace fighters and power armor? as well as a dedicated anti elemental weapon system?
With Omi tech you have battlefield flexibility as well as cost effectiveness - and yet what occurs is the complete reverse – this does not make sense from any point of view!
As for people – consider the population size of the IS or even the FC – finding capable people really should not have been that hard. The problem comes in transporting capable people from worlds of privilege to worlds that require assistance.
As for networks – these occur naturally in the pursuit of money (banks, finance and commerce) or knowledge (professional associations, commerce and universities) or through government assistance (Government Programs).
Leaders Duties …. Consider the role and powers of the UK Prime Mister (link below) when looking at each IS head of states responsibilities – Chairing the Cabinet (highest ministers in charge of individual portfolios within the government) and its most important committees / Overall control of the Civil Service as First Lord of the Treasury – including Fiscal and monetary policy on a world by world basis as well as an overarching realm basis – creating relationships between worlds within each realm (commerce, technology, defense etc.) / foreign policy and defense matters – Then the issue of establishing hidden bases for the mass manufacture of Jump-ships (for the economy and the Defense of the realm) - all of these issues would require a massive amount of time.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmpolcon/writev/842/m2.htm
Quote:
The civil war was going before Victor came in
This statement is in error – prior to Victor declaring for Civil War there was just a few units mutinying against the Chain of Command. Who were in the process of being put down.
Question what would have happened to these units if Victor had not called for War? They would have just been put down and order restored – it is with Victors interference do we have a Civil War – he and he alone is responsible for the War – and a war where he cannot prove his underlying reasons for the war, he stated it was Katherine who killed Arthur – and yet there is no body – in the absence of a body what are you supposed to think? And theis knowledge would have been known from an early stage of this so called Civil War – so why didn’t Victor review what was going on – he is completely unwilling to give up on the idea that Katherine is at fault – Blinkered Much?
Quote:
It was after a while they found out Arthur was still alive.
This was never proven – only speculation as to his ultimate fate. The only tangible information is that no body / piece of a body were ever found at the bomb site.
Quote:
Katherine had Omi killed only because it would hurt Victor.
Again this knowledge comes through the novels – it is not something that can be proven with definitive evidence within the IS – only guessing at his employer’s identity.
Quote:
Hurting an entire planet for the opinion of a single leader is not cruelty?
Then how else is a ruler supposed to keep their leaders on a short leash and do as they are told – An embargo strategy is the most pacifist way of keeping a lord in line. Yes it does hurt innocents but to cause any real damage it takes a very long time to do so – delaying transports will not cause a massive amount of problems when you compare it to other more direct options such as utilizing the military.
Quote:
Logic fail. If the leader had so many people siding with them, a civil war would not have started
Logic fail. If Victor had not declared for a Civil War, a Civil War would never have started. If Victor had asked Sandoval on Robinson for the police investigation reports and done his due diligence (as he did with his Mother’s death) and not jumped half heartedly into the frey the Civil war wound never have occurred!
Quote:
So no. Having 51 percent of the people on your side does not lead to a civil war.
And yet the entire history of Civil Wars sides with this view!
Quote:
Reread the wiki. She did NOT follow the chain of command,
Understand the Chain of Command – Katherine is at the apex of the Chain of Command – she does not have to go through the Military to issue orders!
The Internal workings of the Military are governed by Military Regulations – they have nothing whasoever to do with social generals except in regards to the rank and position they hold. Military Police are there to ensure the act in accordance with Military Regulations and the rules of war.
Quote:
Again, the lack of understanding shows. Takashi would not have ordered is military to blindly strike out at the Jaguars, as this would be a death sentence for the DCMS.
Lack of understanding / research as to Samurai culture and the concept of ‘face’ shows. To accept this without a reprisal attack would be against everything a Samurai lord stands for – there is but one way within the canon universe – Kamikaze and Nuclear Warheads – he has no choice but to strike, the dictums a samurai and a person of Japanese cultural decent lives under demands a reprisal strike and quickly!
Quote:
Again, the fact that Victor was still alive says Katherine was NOT the heir to the throne.
If not Katherine – the second eldest of Hanse and Mellissa – then who? – compare this with both House Steiner and Davion family trees (which also shows the change in succession from one leader to the next) and this statement is suddenly completely in error – both these family trees show quite clearly that Katherine is next in line and there is nothing that can change this!
As for the separation clause – show me a copy of the legal document that was signed to unify these two realms and we will then have a definitive answer – and yet TPTB decided that we were never to see this document thus the entire issue as to the emergency clause becomes an unknown once more other than the fact that at any time due to an unspecified reason the two realms can be separated back into their original realms …..
Political allies occurs due to common goal or philosophy – there is no real set reason as to why people forge them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/13/20 03:40 AM
66.74.60.165
|
There were more then the two looking into this, as it was started when Victor was still the archon prince. As I believe Galen told him, that there was nothing Victor could do that the intel agencies weren't already doing. They got shut down after Katherine took over.
The lie about Omi in supposition means you did NOT read that Hohiro caught the assassin himself. That is how he met his end.
Yet again, you think waving your hands will create ship yards and jumpships by the dozens for canon. That simply means you do not understand the economics of the game, nor the amount of resources available. But then you don't have anything to compare it to, as there is no numbers you provided to even begin to deal with this. The alt is far different from canon.
The developers say what is up, and that is it.
Victor had the proof, but it was not enough to convict with Katherine manipulating every thing. This is from the source of the story line, so saying it is wrong doesn't work. The only information that is available is that which the developers says happened.
The civil war would have gone on without Victor. As stated before, he was needed to get the wide spread fights together under one direction. It would not have ended with Katherine being deposed. It would have lead to a long bloody guerilla warfare against her. And Heimdal had Morgan Kell as a major player in it, so they were being loyal to the real ruler of the FC. Not the usurper.
Get the facts right. The statement that Victor entered the war because he thought his brother was assassinated by the same person his mother was, is not the only reason he got involved, but the main one that set it in motion.
If not for stealing the jumpships like she did, the civil war would have happened when she pulled out of the FC.
Had she not done that, the civil war would not have happened.
This is the fact that is the truth. Had she not killed Mellissa, the entire civil war would not have happened. No matter how much you hate it, or want to twist it, there is not going to be a way around it.
And I do know the chain of command for the military. The leaders does not start telling the captains or lieutenents what to do. To do so destroys and hope of keeping it together, as the commanding officers don't have a clue on what is going on. Discipline goes out the window. That is why it is a chain of command, not the chaotic do as I say, and everyone gets screwed for it.
For twisting so much of the truth, the fact that the DC was based on, but not fanatically following the Bushido still has not sunk in.
You still don't understand that the loss of face for the attack can NOT be as bad as losing more things because they want off with all their forces in order to take down a ship they could not do much against. The crap of nukes is just that. Crap. By this logic, the CC would have been using them in the 4th war to prevent their destruction at the hands of the FS. And the FRR would have been using them long before that. The end of the world scenario that brings about the use of nukes is subjective. Everyone losing badly will believe that is the only choice to stay alive.
They actually explain that in one of the books. The dishonor of losing one world is nothing compared to losing the several to rage attacks.
|
Requiem
06/13/20 06:57 AM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
There were more then the two looking into this ….
In the beginning Victor assigned (whilst being the Archon – Prince) had whole teams assigned (as evidenced with the capture of the Dancing Joker) …. At the end there was just one – Curaitis – as Francesca fell when the blackmail money (when the chemical that was painted on the money was exposed to oxygen) created a firestorm in the back of the vehicle she was in. Thus turning her and the “final evidence” into ash.
Still does not change the fact that there is absolutely no change in “evidence” from the beginning days when Victor decided that it was Katherine who killed his Mother (and he used this “evidence” to convince Duke Kell of her Guilt) to that of the end (within the Novel End Game).
It was Minoru Kurita (and not Hohiro) who used his katana to take the Dancing Joker’s head.
Quote:
Yet again, you think waving your hands will create ship yards and jumpships by the dozens for canon.
And yet this should have been the primary policy of every great houses’ government from when they once more understand how to become self sufficient in producing Jump-ships as it has such a massive stimulus on the economy (also understanding the multiplier effect).
In addition with more Jump-ships the security of every Great house also increases.
Given the issues of the Succession Wars when it comes to Naval yards placing them in a hidden location can only be considered to be the only real choice.
Points which seems to be lost within the IS game world.
When considering the scope of the populations on most of the worlds as well as the underlying technology that would go with these populations it is quite clear there is a massive misunderstanding as to the economics of the game as well as the resources available to every great house. (times the given IS economy by about 1,000 each and you should be starting to get somewhere near the ballpark).
Quote:
The developers say what is up, and that is it.
and when the game becomes believable ……
Quote:
Victor had the proof
He could not win in court and he could not win in the media – thus no proof whatsoever just his supposition – so saying he is completely unable to prove her guilt is completely accurate. If he was able to prove her guilt then he would have used it with all the people – as he was unable to do so … proves, that he was unable to do so Due to the quality of the information available.
Quote:
The civil war would have gone on without Victor
Every Civil War has its flag bearer for both sides – without Victor for the anti Katherine movement there is no one who can lead the movement to final victory. Without Victor the anti Katherine movement will die a very quick death, and that would include everyone who does not pay the proper respect to Katherine.
Quote:
And Heimdal had Morgan Kell as a major player in it.
The problem being that neither Kell nor Heimdall have moved outside the Arc Royal Defense Cordon since its inception thus making the assumption they would actually move against Katherine a very had concept to believe …. as Kell believes it is his duty to protect the Lyran Alliance against the Clans.
I would also like to point out that Kell has also gone to great pains to not start any conflict against Katherine – (Him and all the Dukes of the FedCom) and Katherine has reciprocated for the most part – thus neither side is fighting within the ARDC.
(Also Heimdall do not have a single leader - each cell has its own view on the universe – thus you can have cells that support Katherine and others that will fight against her).
Also Katherine is not a Usurper as she obtained both of her titles legally.
Quote:
Get the facts right. The statement that Victor entered the war because he thought his brother was assassinated by the same person his mother was, is not the only reason he got involved, but the main one that set it in motion.
Read the Novel – it was the only reason! And at no time during or at the end of the war did he provide proof as to Katherine’s perfidy.
Quote:
If not for stealing the jumpships like she did, the civil war would have happened when she pulled out of the FC.
Thus Victor ends up fighting the FWL, CC and the new LA all at the same time?
Quote:
Had she not killed Mellissa, the entire civil war would not have happened. No matter how much you hate it, or want to twist it, there is not going to be a way around it.
As stated many times …. Victor is and has always been the primary kill target.
Quote:
And I do know the chain of command for the military. The leaders does not start telling the captains or lieutenants what to do.
… and this is why she is only providing orders to regimental combat groups commanding officers thus the remainder of the argument becomes sophistry ….
Quote:
For twisting so much of the truth, the fact that the DC was based on, but not fanatically following the Bushido still has not sunk in.
And the DCMS –
For twisting so much of the truth, the fact that the DC was based on, but not fanatically following the Bushido still has not sunk in.
Paragraph “Locking Horns” – “Theodore jumped at the opportunity to push his new interpretation of bushido, which he began with the Genyosha and Ryuken.”
Bushido - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Bushido
The entire Turtle Bay incident is based upon a inaccurate westernized view of Bushido – as it is based upon a very limited number of examples without completing a more comprehensive view of the subject.
Complete the further research and the point remains – Kamikaze with Nuclear ordinance – the concept of face must be adhered to. https://talkaboutjapan.com/save-face-in-japanese-culture/
Quote:
The dishonor of losing one world is nothing compared to losing the several to rage attacks.
… and the loss of face House Kurita would suffer by doing nothing would be incalculable …. Even Omika, as the Head of House Honor, would be forced to move and demand military action against the Jaguars!
There is but one path following Turtle Bay ….. Kamikaze and Thermonuclear devices in the absence of Naval assets!
If TPTB placed Bushido into the game then they should have obtained a better grasp of all of its nuances – or at the very minimum asked a think tank as to a rational decision on the question.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/13/20 01:18 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The only way more jumpships increases the safety of your realm is when the other nations don't have more. And the number of defense units are necessary as well.
Now going with the history of the IS, raids were often done against enemy production facilities. Comstar was one of those that did so as well, though pirates were always to be blamed. Internal strikes happened as well, as industrial espionage happens as well.
Also, as stated with the Galax ship yard, some materials were difficult to secure, The main resource for building the jump drives was said to be hard to secure.
Now to the issue of funds. Something you ignore, yet say want to be completely realistic. Using the reference in the Cabellaros, the one building facing the military compound was supposed to be worth 36 million c-bills. Basically the cost of 3 1/2 atlases. With all the issues in each realm trying to come up with the funds to build all this stuff at once isn't going to happen. If they did have unlimited funds, like you claim, then warship production would not have stopped.
Building them means finding the people that can do the work correctly, as people that can weld in space are not a dime a dozen. Then you have to train people to use the facility, as finding unemployed people that can is highly unlikely.
The statement of the Civil war would have started, but failed to do much if Victor didn't unite them was already stated. The point is, it was going before he got involved. He did not start it. It expanded when he did.
And the point that Katherine started it when she had her mother killed seems to be missing in your storyline.
Morgan was a major player, not the person running it. And where does it say Heimdal was not active the entire time, even with Victor being archon-prince? They were always working to make sure the government didn't abuse the people. It would stand that they didn't just quit. They may well have been the main distributors of the news from other worlds, and Katherine was more then likely trying to stifle any news getting out that she was ordering the military to oppress worlds.
Victor was thinking about entering the civil war, or even starting it when Katherine took the LC. It was the assassination that made the decision for him. He knew Katherine would not stop destroying lives just to become the absolute dictator she wanted to be. It may well be the public reason he was looking for to get involved. There was one part the book where he was discussing this with a few, before he got the news of the assassination attempt.
Not sure of your sources, but Victor did show the proof of her misdeeds. Just because it wasn't the news event of the millenia like you wanted, the books says he did. The books are the ONLY source of facts in the story line. So where you are coming up with not having or showing this is all based on your view.
|
ghostrider
06/13/20 01:37 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Again. Your view is not supported in the canon line. Katherine did not give orders to just regimental commanders, but others in lower positions. Thus the statement of not following the chain of command. And even the regimental commanders would have needed to go thru HQ and such. Since it wasn't the statement of ignoring the chain of command is correct.
Which may well be why more units declined to obey her orders, as suggested by the statement that her orders were vague, and would have laid the blame for the bad results on the unit itself comes into play.
You aren't getting it. The DC would not exist if they were fanatical followers of bushido. ANY loss would cause them to head out in huge numbers to attack those that were successful against them. Even pirates would have had huge chunks of the defenses run off to try and take them out. The DCMS took a huge chunk of the FS in the first war. No matter what happened at Kentares, they would not have given up those worlds they had taken. Troop morale would be nothing, as bushido would mean absolute adherence to the orders from the coordinator. They would have all been killed holding position or committed suicide as the stain of losing worlds would have forced this.
This was addressed in the books when Takashi was talking to someone about face. Takashi said losing one world is nothing compared to losing several. He accepted that he would lose some honor to avoid the greater lose.
But again. Based on, and fanatical following is two different things.
What was the one condition the Japanese asked for in their otherwise unconditional surrender? That the emperor remained in power. Now with this, wouldn't their entire military have huge holes open up as the soldiers, and even the emperor bow to the demand of bushido?
This is very true when guns started showing up on the battle field. Bushido had the sword as the only weapon that was worthy of a warrior. Then it was changed to guns as it became very obvious that the sword could not beat them. So your trying to adhere to the start of it, in a time where mechs can stomp entire cities to rubble doesn't work. And with this, the DCMS tends to be very harsh on an enemy that does not even resist them. Also, many of the subordinates violate the code with their actions, yet nothing is done to stop this.
So no. They are not fanatical about following the way of the warrior. A few rare ones seem to, but for the most part, they follow what they can of it.
|
Requiem
06/13/20 04:25 PM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
The only way more jumpships increases the safety of your realm is when the other nations don't have more. And the number of defense units are necessary as well.
The economics of the realm must be considered as well as the security of the realm.
With an increase in the number of Jump-ships many of the issues every realm has evaporates.
The entire premise that a massive number of shipyards and ships cannot ne manufactured within a relatively short period of time (50 years) is a hoax - compare it to the number of ships within the Star League era and the whole premise once more falls over.
Quote:
The main resource for building the jump drives was said to be hard to secure.
Difficult not impossible. When compared to the size of the universe it is just a matter of time before an adequate supply is found and mined.
Then when comparing this to the number of ships manufactured during the Star League era - the whole idea of scarce resources now becomes iffy - how do you have massive resources available for massive fleets in one era then a couple of hundred years later a massive scarecety in resources.? ..... more issues when it comes to writing .... yet again
Quote:
Building them means finding the people that can do the work correctly, as people that can weld in space are not a dime a dozen. Then you have to train people to use the facility, as finding unemployed people that can is highly unlikely.
As stated many times in the past major corporations have their own education department … example Alarion (population 3.4 Billion), thus training is a non issue …. Considering the population of even one realm or one planet ….. the level of corporations and computer programs that are currently used to find employees, and extrapolating them to the IS of the 3040’s, this is again a non issue.
Quote:
Victor did show the proof of her misdeeds.
To the entire people of the FedCom he promised to provide this info when he started the Civil War? When no info was provided at the end ..... his Civil War this purely for revenge
No, no he did not …. Not one court not even one News Organization …. He just kept all the information hidden …. And why? …. Because there was nothing there of any real significance that could ever be used against Katherine.
Quote:
There was one part the book where he was discussing this with a few, before he got the news of the assassination attempt.
In reverse …. News came first …. Then he discussed it ….Then he started the Civil War …..
[QUOTE]Your view is not supported in the canon line. Katherine did not give orders to just regimental commanders, but others in lower positions.[/QUOTE]
Supporting Evidence – Book Name and Page Number and Quote
Quote:
You aren't getting it. The DC would not exist if they were fanatical followers of bushido.
What are the tenants of Bushido for the era?
A modern version https://www.invaluable.com/blog/history-of-the-bushido-code/
Vs.
WW2 Hagakure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagakure
Takashi, the Generals of the Chief of Staff as well as House Honor (Omika) are bracketed by the concept of Face as well as that of Hagakure and other Tenants of Bushido – Theodore despite his attempts at reform will also be required to act. In the absence of acting House Kurita will suffer a massive loss of Face!
Given the slap across the face the Jaguars have committed there is but one response – Kamikaze and Thermonuclear devices – consult WW2 history at the very minimum.
Turtle Bay has nothing to do with a loss of a single world or for that matter multiple worlds it has to do with the loss of Face when a Jaguar ship can act with impunity in destroying a DC City who had just liberated Takashi’s Grandson (and future Coordinator of the DC) from the Jaguars.
The DCMS you are referring to are appearing to be following the Hagakure during this era – it is not a definitive expression of “samurai philosophy”.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/13/20 09:38 PM)
|
ghostrider
06/13/20 11:11 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Compare the SL which was formed from the Terran Hegemony, which was around for a longer time then the other IS houses, and then ask, how many of those shipyards were built over a hundred to a thousand years? Now ask why the SL was pushing to get new sources of resources as they basically mined out all the materials in the Terran Hegemony. That how many of the mines they were using in the other houses were destroyed in the succession wars. Wait. You mean that the numbers the SL had was from more then a dozen years of work, as well as having skilled people to build the items, and make the ships? What a concept.
The issue is assuming you covered everything, but in reality, it is obvious, you haven't.
A non issue that those that do know how to work in space with welders and such would be with every company and be available to teach others, while trying to continue their jobs sounds like reality to me. I mean there is only so many resources the companies have, so let's remove those doing the jobs to train those that only a rare few could even attempt to do. But you have thought of everything, and this is the only viable solution to this issue. I mean what could an entire section of a jumpship that isn't welded right do? Fall off in the middle of a jump? Not a problem it would seem.
This does not even cover finding people even willing to try it. Check out the stats for underwater workers that deal with dam repairs on the water filled side.
When did Victor say he would show proof of his sister's deeds? He said she killed Arthur as the main reason he got involved, but reading the books, and not adding in bs wording that isn't there, he was trying to avoid it, and only when it became evident that she was not going to stop, did he finally step in to unite the loyalist to remove the usurper. The excuse was Arthur's assassination. It was NOT the only reason.
Do you understand how logic works? If the warriors were so upset with losing a single world, the DC would not have survived the first war, or even becoming the DC. They lost more then a few battles in the fight to even make the DC, then fighting the FS and LC as well as the SL. Pirates would not be operating close to Terra without houses being responsible for most of it. With coordinators being assassinated, those same warriors would not just stop at taking a few worlds. They would be like the ronin. They would go after the person that ordered such a mission as well as anyone else involved. So saying they would have to use nukes to attack the Jaguar ignores the entire history of the IS, and succession wars. The DC would have already been caught in a rage from just losing worlds to begin with.
What you describe would mean abandoning all the worlds they are charged with defending to strike back at the Jaguars. And this is BEFORE the bombardment. Hell, the first war would have had them do so. The FS figured out this issue and used it against the DC. Galtor would be a very good example. The DC lost the world to the FS. This would mean they would use nukes to take the world back? To use any unit in range to attack?
The FS would have owned the DC by the time the 3rd war started, much less them existing during and after the clans.
And where is the honor in framing someone else for assassinating a superior? Promotion by assassination did happen in the old culture. It was one of the worse, but not the only dishonorable thing some did.
A few followed it religiously, while most followed it, but not as fanatical.
China still existing is a very good example of this concept not working the way you want it to.
There was no honor is not passing on the information that House Davion was in line to inherit the first lord title. Greed of power seemed to counter it.
|
Requiem
06/14/20 01:59 AM
101.185.79.245
|
Quote:
how many of those shipyards were built over a hundred to a thousand years? Now ask why the SL was pushing to get new sources of resources as they basically mined out all the materials in the Terran Hegemony.
Terran Alliance from 2086 to 2316 – Controlled Systems 600+ - then consider how small the population / resources that are available during this period to that of 700 years in the future
Terran Hegemony 2315 to 2767 - Controlled Systems 95+
Star League 2570 to 2780 – Controlled Systems 2000+
The majority of Naval Yards would have been created in the initial 200 years (2100 to 2300) when considering the number of controlled systems (600). Over a period 20 – 30 years (3040 to 3070) when factoring in the change in resources / technology available to that of 700 years prior there is a massive gap between what was produced and what should be able to be produced. What is the change in technological development between these two eras? 10X, 20X, 50X or in the 100’s when factoring in the change in populations and corporations and worlds? There is however a magnitude of difference between these two periods of time that must be taken into consideration …. And yet when reading the canon has not ….
The only way that the above statement holds true is if the economy of the Terran Alliance is greater than the era of the various Houses circa 3040 onwards …. Because the level of technology of the Houses in 3040 is equivalent to that of the Star League era, 250 years later than that of the Alliance era ….
It is obvious that there is a disconnect ….
Quote:
so let's remove those doing the jobs to train those that only a rare few could even attempt to do
This statement indicates a lack of knowledge as to how large corporations maintain education departments – may I suggest research is undertaken as to how this operates. Usually rather than retiring individuals are transferred to a massive training and development department to ensure the numbers of people required to expand the business are maintained as the business grows.
At the same time the military could use these facilities to train their own people – and they then train more people – exponential growth …
Over a short period of time the number of workers required can be at a very high number …. It is the same as going through boot camp then into specialist training …. Have a look at underwater welders …
Quote:
When did Victor say he would show proof of his sister's deeds?
Partiots and Tyrants – Page 148 -149
Deschuttes Mogyorod, Melissia Theater, Lyran Alliance 8 December 3062
“Good citizens of the Federated Commonwealth, I wish many things for us. That the great union of two nations which my parents forged would not have founded ……. There is Blood on Katherine’s hands …..In the end, I know we shall be victorious, re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable government among our people, worlds, and nations.”
… re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable government – and this can only be achieved with total disclosure!
Quote:
Do you understand how logic works?
Do you understand the concept of Face? Dow you understand the concepts contained within the Hagakure as it applies to WW2 Japan and how it should also apply to DC DCMS?
The fact stands – in a society similar to that of Japan WW2 post Turtle Bay the only response is that of Kamikaze and a Thermonuclear Device against the Jade Falcon Warship that was used for an orbital bombardment!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/14/20 04:26 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The number of ship yards may well have been few compared to how large some of them were. The stupid thing abou the canon game is the fact that all these hidden or forgotten sites lay around the entire area known to man.
Corporate education for something like building ship yards has a huge effect of people not wanting to do so, as it means sitting out in space for long shifts, with little to no immediate help. Zero-G has an effect on people, physically and emotionally, which causes some of those that would even like to try, to fail out. Then there are some that have no talent and can not develop what is needed to do the job. Amenities are scarce, as well as just something other then basic items, and even then, basic items isn't what people want to deal with. Paste and such would probably be on the menu all the time, as companies will cheap out on supplies.
Now pulling people off of a job to train people in a class room when they are needed to do the job in space is not something the company will be happy to even think of. On the job training in this sort of environment is expensive and very dangerous. Some training will be required before they ever step into a space suit to be trained properly. Even with the billions of people in the universe, there is not that many that can, as well as want, to do that sort of job.
Why do you think he stepped away from ruling? And the public did start seeing some of the evidence he had. Most of it was shown to her greatest supporters, such as the Brewer family running Defiance. There is no saying he would show the evidence to the masses, as the government can be redone to those standards without people knowing the full details. There is no government known to mankind that has ever not lied about things. Funny that you believe total disclosure is the only way to bring that about.
Now there is the issue with your DC problem Should also apply. This is your view of it, not the view of most others including the developers. So this is why part of the story doesn't make sense. Based on is the key world. Not completely followed. And again, the only viable way of dealing with the warship, which was from the Smoke Jaguars, not Jade Falcon, is to use nukes, does not work. As stated, nukes do not carry that much power in the game. Non nuclear missiles do more damage. The alt can have a nuclear rainstorm on the warships, canon does not follow that vision.
|
Requiem
06/14/20 06:37 AM
101.185.79.245
|
Shipyards have to hidden lest every great house will end up with the same issue as the succession wars.
Quote:
Corporate education for something like building ship yards
Remuneration – Deep see welder $300,000 p.a. – if individuals were offered a similar amount within 5 years of working experience the issues of working in a zero G environment suddenly disappear.
Second if working in zero G was such an issue why do families live and work on their family owned Jump-ship generation in generation out …..
Quote:
Now pulling people off of a job to train people in a class room when they are needed to do the job in space is not something the company will be happy to even think of.
Nearing retirement they are transferred off thus the effect to production is negligible.
Quote:
On the job training in this sort of environment is expensive and very dangerous.
No …. This usually occurs when you have gone through massive in classroom training as well as basic training in space – you are then assigned a mentor to watch what you are doing and make sure you are working to your KPI …. Only after you have proven you can work according to the regulations will they remove the mentor.
Quote:
Even with the billions of people in the universe, there is not that many that can, as well as want, to do that sort of job.
How many will change their minds when they learn about the amount of money they can earn?
Have a look of working at a distant mine as an example of the amount of money offered …..
Quote:
There is no saying he would show the evidence to the masses
Say goodbye to re-establishing a trustworthy and accountable government …. And with it a free journalists and freedom of speech soon thereafter …. Has a Government ever disposed a ruler via military force and not told the people why?
Victor stated his aims and his promise of establishing a trustworthy and accountable government, he must be held accountable to this promise.
Quote:
As stated, nukes do not carry that much power in the game.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:_SLDF_Naval_Doctrine
Section 1.3 Nuke Proofing SLDF Style ….” The second is essentially a short ranged fighter weapon. It turns every fighter into a potential ship killer. “
The SLDF says otherwise …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
06/14/20 12:30 PM
66.74.60.165
|
How many people are still needed for undersea welding? They are having issues filling those jobs. As said, those working in the water on dams are still in demand.
Well besides the owners working at their own company, some have been in space enough to get a feel for things. Passing down such a job is much like generations on farms, or selling auto parts.
When a person is close to retirement, you think they are not contributing to their jobs? A lot of those retiring have the experience to do the job better then those that are even 3 years into it. And they actually do it.
On the job training means actually having the teacher and student(s) working on the actual product. This isn't like teaching someone to farm on a nice world. This is having a space suited team out in space, working with equipment that isn't that common, using oxygen and other resources to be there. Any screw up is yet another expense added to this. Simple things like being off an inch or two can have dramatic effects. Some don't do anything when wrong.
So how do you re-establish a government that the ruler was a completely mad tyrant? And it isn't like rulers don't do or order questionable things. Again, you are not seeing it thru the eyes of most people. They may not like it, but they would have liked the fact it was tried. The average LC citizen would see it as a bloodless means to removing the FWL from hitting their nation.
And how many huge protests are done when a ruler from another realm's children are killed in a raid or war? Thomas had a right to be upset, but for the common person, this is not the end all that you are trying to make it out to be.
Have you forgotten the essays on the sight are opinions? In the rule books, the thing that says how much damage things do, it has other missiles doing more damage. Even canons, lasers and such do as much or more. Granted, nukes are not as realistic as they should be, but by changing this, you do the same thing as the other writers. You ignore the 'facts' of the game. This changes it from canon to a point of view. Which is part of why some of the writers seem to not know much of the game system. This leads to the holes in the story.
Right now, jump cores in the game are pure fantasy. But what if they decided to put in a star gate? Or warp drives? The super jump drive was bs. I believe they should have extended the range by now, but the WOB crap was thrown in there to made WOB a larger threat. It was still major crap. Same with the SDS system. Without it, WOB would have been stomped that much quicker with less damage to all.
|
Requiem
06/14/20 04:50 PM
101.185.79.245
|
Semantics regarding employment – Large remunerations will have an effect on placement numbers.
Semantics IS economic and technological development has expanded exponentially to such a point that the number of Jump-ship production facilities should have increased – cases in point, the number of BattleMech production facilities increases since 3040 onwards. Second, warship production.
Government and Corporation development of commercial Jump-ships should have increased.
Semantics – mentor education programs will not work in space – so far training and development have been produced for every environment including space. To believe that in 1000 years of space travel and production educational programs do not work seems to be extremely far-fetched. Computers in class rooms was until recently unheard of – who is to say that in 1000 years they do not have school camps to lunar environments whist working on the school Drop-ship as it proceeds to and from the lunar camp site isn’t a normal event.
Quote:
So how do you re-establish a government that the ruler was a completely mad tyrant?
Perestroika and glasnost – Russia for one.
There have been many instances where, over time, governments have moved forward.
To believe that everyone within the IS sees Katherine as the ultimate evil ruler is beyond the pale – TPTB really dropped the ball on this one. Most of the best rulers in history have always been similar to her and her governments practices.
There is no proof of her guilt whatsoever – otherwise Victor and his two siblings would have proclaimed her guilt to the heavens in order to legitimize their actions and their rule over their respective realms. By not doing so many will see their rule as illegitimate.
Joshua’s death and replacement by Victor requires context to understand – consider the Lindbergh Kidnapping then times that rage and grief by a higher magnitude …. people become attached to their royalty and for one to be so ill treated is what must be considered as to the outpouring of grief in such a situation.
Quote:
Have you forgotten the ….
Considering the thermal output of a thermonuclear detonation is greater than that of the sun ….. just because TPTB have created a reduced version does not make it correct – physics does not change to do so on such a level you might as well give up on the game’s reality entirely. From now on all my Mechs can fly – as they have an anti gravity engine and an anti gravity shield making most of the current weapon systems obsolete ….. (Satire)
Quote:
This leads to the holes in the story.
How difficult is it to research such topics? And thereby incorporate such information into the game? TPTB put them in the game – they destroyed how many worlds and the people there on and they are worried about the ‘facts’ of the game? Once in the game they are in …..
Quote:
Without it, WOB would have been stomped that much quicker with less damage to all.
They were provided with how many hidden worlds with massive populations of how many people they were provided with how many new mech designs as well as cyborg technology to produce the next quantum leap in warrior development (whereas the clans were allowed just gene modifications) Might as well have given them legions of troops as they did with the Clans and really suspend the belief factor than gone down the track with WMDs but then when considering many of the stories belief and accuracy have never been part of the games strong points?
Might as well give up on logic, reality and understanding physics and just go for broke and turn the game into the most unreal it can be ….
Make more sense than some of the issues included into the game so far…..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/14/20 04:51 PM)
|
ghostrider
06/14/20 10:50 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The issue with people in space is why there aren't that many aerofighter pilots, and even getting a skilled dropship crew is hard to do.
Increasing the pay is not going to magically bring in applicants that can do the job and not go nuts. The weight that a single tear in your suit will probably kill you weighs heavy on peoples minds. And that isn't saying anything about company reputations. They are large corporations after all. Most try to save money on things so the executive board can make lots of money. The combination of talent to do the job, and the ability to do it in zero-g is what prevents a lot of people from being able to do it. Then comes things like making sure the person isn't an agent for a rival company or a spy that is sent in to sabotage the product. And last but not least, more then a few quit because their boss doesn't know what the hell is really going on, or even qualified to be in charge. Corporations just love to have their family in charge of important positions.
Again. What is the source of proof behind the statement that Victor had no evidence? Everything official says he did. Only you say he didn't. So where is this printed?
And the suggestion that the masses in the FWL were sympathetic to Thomas losing a child was not there. More then a few wanted the Marik line gone. Hell, even some of the Mariks wanted the rest gone. Isis would probably have loved the idea Joshua was gone as it means she is the only legal heir to the throne. Of course lip service would be required. In some cases, it would increase the rage against the Mariks as more then a few lost their children to the Mariks incompetence and games. On and off the battle field.
On the Lyran side, how many would have been absolutely infuriated that Katherine just handed over the worlds to the FWL, and CC? Some spent billions trying to establish their companies in that area, only to lose them to someone that has no knowledge of war?
And you should read up on the Chaos March. The houses DID try to reinforce their rule, only to be chewed up by others. The entire march was a meat grinder. Even comprehensive reading says that, but to help, it is printed.
Arguing canon is wrong, as they were using their own guidelines is where the issue is. I have not seen anything saying the Kyber crystals being destroyed when the first one was made, much less where the ones for the second and planet killer came from. A laser will not explode a planet on contact.
Now. Keeping in their own rules, they are accurate to say that the nukes do not do more damage then others. Now you need to go and change the rule basis before you can rewrite anything, as everything based on something outside of the rule base is a complete logic failure.
Where you even on line in the early 80's? You know when the internet was nothing near as it is today? 1200 baud modems were considered fast. The screens you see booting up in some movies and shows that you can read faster then the information was coming thru was real. So without having all the information at the click of a button on a mouse, the way to do any research was to go to a library and such. As the game developed in later days, they got more technical, but again. The game was a board game. The fluff they put into it was not the selling point. It still isn't.
So the take away to this is, you don't have to play it if you don't agree with it. The presentation done here is not showing an alternative to canon, but a means to rip on it. Not a single number was shown to even suggest the developers own numbers are wrong.
Hidden worlds with massive populations? Is this really possible? Hidden worlds stay hidden only when there isn't a constant flow of ships going in and out of them. To my knowledge, jumpships aim towards their destination in order to jump. That may be in error, so this might be off a little. But having a ship constantly pointing in a direction that there is NOTHING would tip someone off. 30 light years isn't that long to see any worlds that could be jumped to.
Also, having that many people would mean sooner or later, someone would get word out, even if it is just to tell their family, they are still alive and kicking. Part of why installations that are secret are military run. A few science stations are, but those tend to lose their secret position due to some stupid mistake.
The fact WOB had production facilities isn't in question. How many actual warriors they could have is. They controlled Terra, which had quite a few before comstar lost it. Then their base in the FWL had some built. The issue of why they needed the WMDs is a real lack of numbers to hit all the worlds at a close time, as well as not wanting to waste them on battles that were easier to just nuke. The whole Turtle Bay incident repeated. They feared they would lose, so resorted to nukes.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 55 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 142662
|
|
|
|
|
|
|