Requiem
06/15/20 01:44 AM
101.185.79.245
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The issue with people in space is why there aren't that many aerofighter pilots, and even getting a skilled dropship crew is hard to do.
Misnomer belief built upon TPTB premise that BattleMechs are the king of the Battlefield. In reality the I.S. is a space faring society – as such being in space is an absolute necessity – thus a major proportion of the society should work within space ….
Thus for a universe science fiction setting based in space shows there is something severely wrong with the writing …
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Increasing the pay is not going to magically bring in applicants that can do the job and not go nuts.
Societal values that relate to corporations would say otherwise …
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What is the source of proof behind the statement that Victor had no evidence?
1. Regarding the land sale – only circumstantial evidence was ever found;
2. Ryans’ private information – destroyed;
3. Sven Newmark’s information destroyed;
4. All individuals with any knowledge are dead – or taken to a black site and subsequently died;
5. Victor is incapable of bringing Katherine before a court of law or provide evidence in the media;
6. Novels – if taken from the point of view of an ordinary citizen on the street they have no knowledge as to Katherine’s guilt – they only know that Victor has accused her of being behind both deaths – however he has never supplied any evidence.
QED – no evidence
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Everything official says he did.
Now that I have answered please reciprocate – What source of information is there behind the statement that ‘Everything official says he did’ – what evidence does Victor have? Book – Page Number ….
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And the suggestion that the masses in the FWL were sympathetic to Thomas losing a child was not there.
Prove it! Book and Page number
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On the Lyran side, how many would have been absolutely infuriated that Katherine just handed over the worlds to the FWL, and CC?
Except that canon blames Victor not Katherine for this fiasco - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Chaos_March
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The entire march was a meat grinder. Even comprehensive reading says that …
“ The constantly shifting web of alliances, as well as the rapid rise and fall of planetary-level governments led observers to dub this area of instability the Chaos March …. Over time, both the Capellan Confederation and the Federated Commonwealth were able to exert more influence and military pressure on the worlds of the Chaos March, leading to its shrinkage. Though both would become distracted (the Capellans by the war with the St. Ives Compact and the Commonwealth by the Clans), many worlds of the Chaos March had been reclaimed by one of the Great Houses. When the FedCom Civil War broke out in 3062, some Chaos March worlds were caught in the middle …. The face of the Chaos March changed forever when the owners of Terra, the Word of Blake announced the formation of the Word of Blake Protectorate in 3066.”
In reality if the 20 year update, that included the true level of FedCom forces were still in effect,t neither the CC nor the FWL would have had enough forces to invade – if they did Victor and the FS would have squashed both these two realms with just the FS forces alone! (ie the TPTB cheated once again when they refused to carry over the true forces of the FedCom from the 20 year update)
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Arguing canon is wrong, as they were using their own guidelines is where the issue is.
Arguing with logic and rational functions is the correct problem ….
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I have not seen anything saying the Kyber crystals being destroyed when the first one was made, much less where the ones for the second and planet killer came from.
Then you should have watched the complete Star Wars: Rebels series.
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Now you need to go and change the rule basis before you can rewrite anything, as everything based on something outside of the rule base is a complete logic failure.
Please explain which rules of physics apply and which do not - can I manipulate gravity, Newton’s laws – or is it just those that relate to nuclear physics.
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Where you even on line in the early 80's? You know when the internet was nothing near as it is today?
This is still not an excuse …. Writing a good story is about research to ensure all the small facts are accurate …. Not making them up as you go along just because …
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Hidden worlds with massive populations? Is this really possible?
Very easy … I could put an empire of worlds above / below the Canon worlds and they would not even know of their existence until it was too late – the entire IS transport system is about adhering to existing routes – other than Thomas Kurita in the canon 3039 war how many forces were going “off track” within the IS to get from one world to the next?
Problem is you just need one secret spot to jump from and you can remain hidden for the remainder of the journey – how easy if this was Terra given ComStar’s ability to hide their explore Corps for how many centuries? – so it is quite easy to hide whole planets at the same time!
Then there is the real Thomas Marik’s hospitalization after he was blown to bits – this occurred on one of these hidden worlds! Secret Maintained!
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How many actual warriors they could have is.
How many centuries were these world kept hidden from when the Exodus occurred – or were they just lost worlds during the Amaris War?
Then there is the issue that WMDs were made and stored on these worlds as the final step in making the Universe one big Blakean Theocracy – as per their original plan.
Then there is the issue of the number of worlds that were just killed off to make a point eg. Alarion – then there is the issue of how many were used in battles – retaking Terra for example … there must have been a massive stockpile somewhere …. Also it was not about the issue they feared they would loose. It was about eliminating any concentration of forces – similar to Castro and the Cuban Missile Crisis – Long Range ones were not yet operational however the short range ‘frogs’ were operational – any landing by US forces on the beaches of Cuba were to be met with a short range nuclear strike.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/15/20 02:18 AM
66.74.60.165
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I have yet to see anywhere that the houses have more pilots then craft. Every novel out there seems to suggest that getting good crew is difficult. So if TPTB say it is in the canonverse, then that is the way it is.
You are basing your information saying that money will bring out hordes of people to apply for a job is possible, but finding the amount you need isn't going to happen. Most that apply will be eliminated almost immediately as they can't do the job, or can't handle being in space. Numbers is not going to do more then waste more money finding the 1 or 2 per billion. Then finding if the people will relocate. Companies are notorious for not wanting to pay employees to move. And then turning screws once the employee is trapped where they are at. The work ethic of someone that is basically being held against their will, drops dramatically. You will find some, but it won't be enough to open up even 20 yards. I doubt more then 3 if that.
No copies being made for anything sounds like bs. The fact that Victor never took her to court because of a lack of proof it supposition, as the only source of this information says he had the proof. So the argument is saying your view is correct, as the writers said it was released, but didn't cover the storyline from there. Just like they don't cover every little thing that happens in the galaxy. You comprehensive reading skills pick up conspiracies that don't exist, but yet can't figure out not everything they say happens is printed in full detail the moment it happens.
You left out a few parts that do say the entire area was a meat grinder. I understand that because it shuts down the complaint. It seems to happen more and more.
And you still think that every single unit in the listing in the books is available to be sent into a location the moment something happens. In the alt were everything happens magically, like forces on one side of the FS, can just pick up and move across to attack something, leaving their worlds they were protecting free for attacks is what you want. In a logical thought process, this can not be done as you wished it could. Canon has a lack of ships. And even then, you can not just pull forces off where ever to move to a world 5 or more jumps away on a moments notice. How many worlds need forces protecting them? ALL of them. And when you say 3 RCTs isn't enough to garrison a capital world, then this number drops even more.
Saying the people that made the rules are wrong for keeping their storyline with some resemblance to following those rules is wrong, but yet arguing that your vision is the only one that is correct doesn't make it so. If they say their game can have a pin shot out from a sowing machine, can penetrate the armor of a warship without issue, then that is so. The bs I argue about is when the pin can't penetrate a simple shirt. Things like there not being any examples of SL weapons in the IS before the helm core is bs. The fact that the SL mechs are all configured to the 3025 era models, when they had so much advanced tech is bs. I understand that they did not even have much of a clue on if the game would even get to actually bringing to life the SL, besides legend when it first came out, but when they did, NOTHING had the advanced tech in it. It is when they contradict their own rules is where the problems lay.
And now you might just understand that physics are not constant with the game rules. The idea of a PPC throwing out charged particles, akin to lighting, would not be attracted to the closest grounded source along the line of fire, or even close. A ship that can travel 30 light years thru some type of teleportation. A message can be sent like that and make a sustained contact that is almost instantaneous. The fact that the same weapons on a mech can fire much further in space then on a world with the same accuracy is yet another. And simple materials used for construction can not be fitted on something that is a little more rugged and stationary, then it does on a large multi jointed moving monster.
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ghostrider
06/15/20 02:36 AM
66.74.60.165
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Yet some how, you are putting up things that don't make sense, and you have tried to research things. Suggesting nukes are the only thing to counter warships, then suggest they should not be in the game doesn't make sense, other then you don't want the FS/FC to be hurt. That is poor writing in your own words. If A equals B, and B equals C, then A must equal C. That is logic. Your view is doing the same as the developers. A equals what I want, and B equals what I want, but C doesn't work as I don't want it.
Have you read Sci Fi books? You know, the ones that don't have a true basis in the laws of physics. Hyperspace jumps being a main one. Transmission portals that hurl a person across a galaxy on a moment notice without killing the person by having some of them at one point, and the other at the other point. Or how a ship handles the same in space as it does in the atmosphere. Gundam wing is very famous for bs like this. It is entertaining, but not something you can compare to logical writing.
Again, you show you have not read the history of the IS. More then a few raids and full scale attacks were made by going thru uninhabited worlds. Deep raids are very notorious for doing so. Trying to flee an enemy tends to use those same systems. Normal traffic keeps to normal routes as the commercial transports can not afford to lose a single jumpship. Though some still use uninhabited systems. One of the old battles around Defiance had the raid from the FWL do so, before Thomas was even born. Davion did the same thing with some of the invasion force in the 4th war. Surprise attacks on worlds more then one jump in requires jumps into systems not watched. Pirate points can only do so much, but when a ship goes from one system and then disappears without showing up at another watched world, it is either a misjump, or going 'dark'. And the hidden worlds were BS as Comstar would have had started them before WOB took over. You can only keep them hidden so long. The larger the operation, the less likely it will remain hidden.
Funny how you said the Cuba missile crisis would use short range nukes to defend against an invasion, but yet you said that the CC would never have used them to thwart the FS in the 4th war. This example destroys the argument with the 4th war. Nice to see the contradiction from your own words to counter your statements.
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Requiem
06/15/20 04:35 AM
101.185.79.245
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Every novel out there seems to suggest that getting good crew is difficult.
And yet in the absence of a definitive quote from a book the point is does not hold.
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but finding the amount you need isn't going to happen. Most that apply will be eliminated almost immediately as they can't do the job…
Personal opinion …. I could just take the opposite opinion ad infinitum …..
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….as the writers said it was released,
Then after reading all the novels what is this so called evidence the writers say is there when all the evidence they wrote into the story no longer exits and Katherine is the only person left standing?
You can’t write a story and say everything has been destroyed only to change the premise on the last line unless you have a time machine or your character is within a dream sequence ……
I have provided my side with all the canon facts written into the narrative …. Where within the narrative is it written that Victor found the smoking gun on Katherine?
Until I have been provided with Book – Page Number and quote as to the existence of definitive evidence held by Victor – Katherine is innocent!
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You left out a few parts that do say the entire area was a meat grinder. I understand that because it shuts down the complaint. It seems to happen more and more.
Canon Fact …….
20 Year Update –
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (not including the 4 I removed due to the impossibility of their existence)
Free Worlds League 66 Regiments, 2 Battalions
Thus the CC + FWL = 96 Regiments (including the 4 I believe should not exist)
Even if FS retained only half the units that is still 134 Regiments
Then when you compare the number of units the FS could move during the 4th SW there would be more than enough to obliterate the CC as well as damage the majority of the FWL units used in the war and still have enough left over to keep the DC in check. As there is no definitive numbers as to the number of Jump-ships Katherine was able to keep from Victor the point becomes debatable once more.
At the very least the CC would no longer exist! (yet again)
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you can not just pull forces off where ever to move to a world 5 or more jumps away on a moments notice.
Ready Reaction Forces – Yes you can send them …. And yes they can go straight into the fight …..
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Suggesting nukes are the only thing to counter warships, then suggest they should not be in the game doesn't make sense,
Attempting to make a statement where none exists?
1. In the absence on Warships – only Kamikaze and Thermonuclear devices will get the job done – as they are the only weapon systems available to the DCMS at that time frame that can take on a warship;
2. In an IS universe with Warships – Naval Battle – remove nukes from the game;
Choose your story narrative?
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the ones that don't have a true basis in the laws of physics. Hyperspace jumps being a main one.
Google Wormholes – tunnels in curved space-time, connecting two distant places, through which travel is possible ….
Even in the Gundam universe the laws of physics still stand – Still have yet to answer the question if nuclear physics no longer exists within the Battletech universe what other physics principles have been removed/ modified? ….. as we need to know this for our ‘logical writings’
The issue being nuclear reactors - if nuclear weapons are now the power of firecrackers how do they destroy planets in other writings with just dropping half a dozen onto a world and what about nuclear reactors how big do they have to be now to produce the same amount of energy as well a nuclear medicine any change there in the dosage – also when people die of exposure to nuclear radiation (Grey Death CO) – how does all this change if the laws of physics have been changed for nuclear weapons?
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More then a few raids and full scale attacks were made by going thru uninhabited worlds. Deep raids are very notorious for doing so.
Then why were they never used in the 4th SW as well as during the Clan Invasion? Also why would Hanse Davion have been so surprised during the war of 3039 if they were used so regularly?
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You can only keep them hidden so long.
ComStar’s Explorer Corp – you cannot have it both ways, either both should have been found out or both remain a secret – please choose.
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Funny how you said the Cuba missile crisis would use short range nukes to defend against an invasion, but yet you said that the CC would never have used them to thwart the FS in the 4th war.
Apple meet orange – orange meet apple – up until that state only one WMD strike had been used during the 4th SW and that was chemical. At that stage the writers had no rules for the use of Nuclear weapons in the game. So unless you want to add some house rules the for your own home game it was quite impossible.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/15/20 12:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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As with everything else printed, if they had said they had the bomb plans and full details signed by Katherine, you would still say that doesn't prove she did it. A full holotape of her saying she did it wouldn't be enough. Then things like it doesn't make sense and such. So just like your complaint on why you can't come up with numbers on what Defiance alone has, the writers did not put up every last bit of information. Their numbers don't fit your visions numbers, yet you don't have any. Get the point now?
Canon fact. You can not say that you have left out units and still say it is canon fact. Also, out of all those units, how many can really be moved within a day? A week? You still don't understand that the interstellar battles is a guessing game on when and where the next set of attacks will be. Also, the 20 year update was showing units that were around at the time of the update. How many were destroyed or formed after the update was done? And back to needing to guard a lot of things, yet not having the troops to do so. Something that still seems to allude you. This isn't something that a single week can have the troops moved, in the numbers needed, in order to stop an invasion. By the time you get there, they have destroyed and looted everything worth of value. And then you can't understand why they can't rebuild.
Yeah. There is no sense in saying you have to use nukes, which doesn't work well in the game, against warships if you don't have any warships, then suggest that others would not have used, or will use them when they feel there is no other alternative. The full logic failure here is sad really. And now. It does NOT remove nukes from the game.
A small ship, the gundam, carries more firepower and armor then the largest of battleships follows physics? No wonder understanding the BattleTech game is so difficult.
Yeah wormholes. Unstable, and no way to really use them. You don't set an destination as they go where they want. And until someone does go thru one and comes back, it is all just the best educated guess. But then years ago, nothing could travel faster then light, so it is possible worm holes do distort the fabric of reality. But this does not explain jumpships. But this is a Sci Fi game and they needed FTL drives in order to be a galactic sized game.
The radiation fall out is even more widespread then the actual blasts. But the developers had to nerf their damage, as it makes the idea of having large armored ships woefully stupid. Spend a year and a half building some billions c-bill ship, only to be destroyed by one shot. Then again, keeping it at full power, destroys any chance of making the game work. A single Davy Crockett can wipe out a battlefield of units. No mech could withstand that power. So that means a single raiding ship can destroy the enemies units on the enemies world and you don't have to deal with it. Yeah. Fun game. Man would never have been able to spread out, as someone with a supply of nukes would have extorted the galaxy with them.
The raid on Kathil and the one to get the TSM used some. And if I know right, the raid that killed the LC generals used this same method. The attack on the Direwolf had the force use uninhabited systems to try and get away from the Wolf Clan. It was an accident that they ran into the warship. The Silver Eagle had jumped into an uninhabited system too, if I remember right. So your comprehensive reading isn't working right. Maybe try reading the actual words next time.
The explorer corps unique ships were retconned into the game. This is why they were not seen before hand. Now if you need something more in game, the fact they can use pirate points in uninhabited systems to move thru is a good concept. Uninhabited, normally has nothing in system watching for things, as reporting them is impossible. No HPG. Comstar would have a very good star chart for things like this, so they could move around. This is one of those things that I do say is bs. They have a fleet of them, yet weren't seen or reported. So the poor retcon is why they weren't 'seen' before.
Apples and oranges? So the CC would not see the 4th war invasion as a desperate action time, as they were about to be destroyed, so would not use nukes to save themselves, but the real world had Cuba about to do just that. And then the clan invasion requires nukes to fight warships. And you don't see the flaw in this? It isn't comprehensive reading, it is not reading anything, but putting in a fantasy concepts in the books. Either that, or the logic failure going on is much worse then it looks.
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Requiem
06/15/20 05:25 PM
101.185.79.245
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As with everything else printed, if they had said they had the bomb plans and full details signed by Katherine, you would still say that doesn't prove she did it. A full holotape of her saying she did it wouldn't be enough.
I asked a simple question “Where within the narrative is it written that Victor found the smoking gun on Katherine?”
The answer:- “the writers did not put up every last bit of information. Their numbers don't fit your visions numbers, yet you don't have any. Get the point now?”
Yes I do – an unsustainable writing perspective.
Please explain how, as a reader, if you cannot find any evidence, the absence of evidence proves the guilt of a character within the story? This is a complete disconnect as to how to understand and critique a story. As an author has a certain responsibility to their readers to lead them to a definitive conclusion - Mystery Authors such as Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes – Agatha Christie’s Poirot – what would happen to these novels if they never provided a definitive conclusion?
This is the problem here – there is no definitive conclusion written into the story as to Katherine’s true guilt – and as to Katherine’s fate I give this story an “F”. Writing out of the story a good Villainess indicates there are underlying issues with the narrative.
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You can not say that you have left out units and still say it is canon fact.
Consider the positioning of the Chaos March – consider the level of trade through this area – Consider the Importance of the Terran corridor and how wide it is.
Then understand timing works both ways for that of the attacker and the defender when attempting to move their forces – then understand that this method of fighting has been the norm since the time of Kerensky’s Exodus – so really this is of little importance unless the battles last years – and they didn’t!
There is a disconnect in that of what the FWL and the CC can accomplish compared to that of what the FS can do in response – the CC is geographically isolated and the FWL’s government (despite all the fake Thomas’s military reforms it is as less than solidified idea. Their Units will not act as one military they are still into the idea of protecting their individual area / dutchie etc is still quite laughable - as evident when the fake Thomas was made known - the military just fractured back to its old ways).
The FS written about at this time frame has only one third of the forces available (The New House Book) to that of the 20 Year Update in an attempt to “Level the playing field”.
Once more the absence of definitive information we are expected to believe in the impossible – and yet given the limited information available we are expected to believe in this scenario and we are expected to believe it will pan out the way it is written.
Sorry to say but this story is not very believable – even with the absence of the LA forces this area should still be incredibly fortified due to its location – its Lords would never leave one of the Great Houses because to do do so would isolate their world from trade / finance / Government Banking requirements / Education requirements and military protection as well as their identity as being a part of one of the Great Houses.
This entire story line is not very believable.
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Warships
Please explain – Warships are the biggest gun on the battlefield and have been used twice – once in the DC and the second in the LA.
As a House Lord who does not have even a single Warship of your own how are you going to protect your realm from the enemies warships who can now park themselves over any world they wish and bomb them back into the stone age with absolute impunity?
Please do explain how you will protect your realm when the only weapon you have that is capable of defending your realm against the warship menace is nuclear?
So either you write in IS warships earlier – allow the IS to retrofit Dropships with massive naval weapons and use them as PT craft – or you allow the establishment of big wing attack aerospace fighter groups with some kind of HE ship killer missile.
As for others using them – consider the time line and the rules of war for that time line – that is the underlying politics of pre 3039 and to that of post 3050 are two completely different periods of time. There is a need to understand the period and the politics without placing on it the values of a future generation.
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Gundam
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundam_Universal_Century_technology
Defined Technology within the game!
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But this does not explain jumpships.
Jump-ships establish an artificial quantum wormhole allowing the vessel to move vast distances in space.
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But the developers had to nerf their damage, as it makes the idea of having large armored ships woefully stupid.
Advanced Steiner Stadium Shields – next generation shields – maintain physics and at the same time do not allow the game to become woefully stupid by allowing existing tech to be upgraded. Keep the ships from being killed off in one shot – keeps the Mechs from being destroyed – keeps the idea of nukes from the game.
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Man would never have been able to spread out, as someone with a supply of nukes would have extorted the galaxy with them.
Except everyone agreed not to use them – and the law held – until the arrival of the Clans when they began using WMDs against defenseless planets.
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The raid on Kathil and the one to get the TSM used some.
Thank you for proving my point – using hidden routes / worlds / space stations should be a standard within the game – every Great House should have hidden Bases etc scattered throughout the IS from which to strike out from – thus every Great House should also have a hidden Navy that attempts to find these hidden bases and strike them down.
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The explorer corps unique ships were retconned into the game. This is why they were not seen before hand.
Thus anything ret-conned into the game is automatically given a pass within the game’s history?
As for star maps – during the Star League age every Great House would have had far more superior star charts – ComStar did not even exist at this stage – Plus every great House was attempting to get around the First Lord’s restrictions on the number of weapons they were allowed - thus their ability to create hidden routes / hidden bases / hidden armies should have been well defined prior to that of any of the succession wars.
Disconnect between the game and what ant logical realities of what a House Lord would do?
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And you don't see the flaw in this? It isn't comprehensive reading, it is not reading anything, but putting in a fantasy concepts in the books. Either that, or the logic failure going on is much worse then it looks.
There is a need to understand each era – the people, the culture and the military – as well as understanding the spirit of nationalism and imperialism (are they Left Wing / Right Wing - do they adhere to the underlying politics of the day at the time of the crisis).
Trying to place 3075 values onto a 3050 or even 3020 era setting will only produce apples and oranges.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/15/20 05:40 PM)
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Cray
06/15/20 10:07 PM
71.47.151.234
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Jump-ships establish an artificial quantum wormhole allowing the vessel to move vast distances in space.
No, they don't. I recommend reading Strategic Operations' chapters on JumpShip operations.
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As for star maps – during the Star League age every Great House would have had far more superior star charts – ComStar did not even exist at this stage –
The Houses were heavily dependent on the Terran Alliance's and Hegemony's cartography. From a very early era, Terra didn't share much. It wanted the colonies - the Houses - under its control. Even into the Star League Civil War, the Houses' fleets and armies were quite a bit smaller than the Hegemony's (SLDF's).
Requiem, you're making some very odd assumptions about how the setting and writing works, and doing so from very thin cloth.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/15/20 11:33 PM
101.185.79.245
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Cray,
Problem is Strategic Operations is one of the books I have not yet acquired.
Considering the procedure describes encompassing objects with a K-F field and then “jumping” from one point to another this could be considered as a descriptor of a man made worm-hole.
Could a new page be established then so that I can understand the “strategic operations” physics behind their assumption?
Second, from both a historical and a Naval perspective cartography has been one of the strategic operations of every nation in order to expand trade (wealth) and their national borders through colonization (power)...
Erik the Red – beat Columbus by half a millennium in discovering America;
Zheng He – fleet admiral, and regarded as the greatest ever Chinese explorer;
Cook;
Drake;
Magellan;
Columbus;
To believe that a black sea faring nation would rely upon another nation for their cartography requirements is beyond strange. Cleopatra of Egypt was correct – every ship that comes into port with a new “book” would be confiscated / copied and the copy sent to the Library of Alexandria for further study – i.e. every Great House would take a copy of every Navigation Computer of every Jump-Ship (that they could gain access to) that came into their space so that they could expand their cartographical understanding of the universe (plus it is also lucrative for the Captains if they sell their new information) – its planets and its resources and to expand each realms understanding of the unknown space that is out there. This knowledge can be considered to be one of the greatest treasures of every Great House as they expand into the unknown and would be maintained and expanded upon with all due care.
Military fleets are not the issue – exploratory fleets are ….
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Requiem, you're making some very odd assumptions about how the setting and writing works, and doing so from very thin cloth.
Please elucidate me with examples as to my ‘odd assumptions’, as they are not odd to me - so, please assist me in improving my writing – is it the subject material or is something else?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 12:38 AM
66.74.60.165
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How did all that crap come from saying you left out units, so it isn't canon fact? I will call that a bold face lie at this point. Canon facts, or any other type, can not delete parts of it and be a fact. That is called twisting or spinning things by leaving out information.
Warships were used for more then just two instances in the clan invasion and used entirely through out the entire history of the original SL. Even the succession wars had them being used. Your little wolf packs won't work as you think in canon. There isn't enough ships to do more then feed them to warships that they will eventually encounter. That is by far the greater threat, as the Jaguars removed their after their captain violated their traditions. The Falcons didn't even fire a shot. Yet the invasion had more then a dozen of them escorting the assault forces. You say there is no way the clans could have romped thru the defenders, well when you can't put any dropships in the air, or even fighters, it changes a lot, as well as the enemy having orbital surveillance on your forces.
The IS could deal with the warships with other ordinance as the rule say other weapons do more damage. NAC's as well as NPPCs and such do more damage. Or did they change this in battlespace and beyond?
So nuke are NOT the only weapon that can be used. Using them on the clans and saying they wouldn't be used in other situations completely destroys any logic in a story.
The story is unbelievable if you are using just the numbers of forces each side has. I have 4 times what you do, but have to protect 20 times what you do. So I win, as I got more forces. Yet what would you win? The enemy would see they could not hold out, so nukes your forces coming in, and does a grand prix thru your worlds nuking them as well. Even without nukes, simple conventional damage will remove your ability to do much in the future. Your 4 times forces are off in the enemy area, and their forces are destroying your facilities. Raiding them as much as they can. Now you have to find supplies, while they come back and start removing your stranded forces, or even glowing in the dark ones. The numbers game tends to be cancelled out when you have things like nukes. You love to say you would have them all in one location and send them out as needed. This is why you hate nukes. It destroys the turtle defense.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 12:56 AM
66.74.60.165
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As a side note, Grayson died from radiation that leaked from his engine into the cockpit. The engine that produces no radiation, so the entire story tends to show the writers don't bother sticking with the rules.
Do you not read the rules of the game? There are HE missiles that aren't nukes in the game. They are not a one shot weapon, and it would be extremely stupid to even try to make them do that. NOTHING would be safe from them. And the bombing runs of the succession wars, will look like a simple rock throwing contest if you try to bring something like that in. Something that can take out a warship in one shot would make a great way to remove an RCT on the move. But again. this means using logic to the end, and beginning, not just trying to change the middle.
Might need to research the energy shield in the Steiner arena. It was STAR LEAGUE tech. It wasn't made afterwards. It was done before the League fell. And yet only the stadium has any reference to it being used. So major retcon issues there.
Also, why would the shield stop a nuke? I seriously doubt they could go into the sun and survive. Though they did nerf nukes for weapons in the game, yet kept them at full damage for the fall of the SL as well as the succession wars. So again, rules being changed, which changes the entire history of the game.
Agreed to not use them, but did. From the fall of the league to deep in the succession wars, they were used. They were used after the 4th war as well. The agreement is only as good as the honor of the leaders that have them. There was multiple agreements not to use weapons like they were. And all of them were tossed to the side when someone thought they could use them and get away with them. No real punishment so they did get away with it.
They did use hidden facilities in the IS. They got found out as well. Jumpship traffic tends to give away the location, which means if you aren't completely self sufficient, you will be found. Comstar/WOB got away with it, as they controlled the HPG network. Simple coding would garble any coordinates to worlds they wanted to keep a secret. And removing the people that knew of it would happen.
Trying to place 3075 values onto a 3050 or even 3020 era setting will only produce apples and oranges.
This is the very basis of the DC being based on Bushido, but not being fanatically following it. Each new ruler brings with them their own quirks.
But some basics remain. People will think they have no choice but to use nukes when an enemy that can't be stopped by normal means comes for them. It gets really bad, when the people about to die are little and started the whole thing. Nukes tend to give people the illusion of great power. And if you are going to die, you might was well deny the enemy of a clean victory. That is the thinking that goes on.
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Requiem
06/16/20 01:19 AM
101.185.79.245
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That is called twisting or spinning things by leaving out information.
Explain further – as the first paragraph requires clarification.
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Warships
The issue is how to respond to warships – Assume you are one of the Leaders of a Great House then ask yourself how you are going to deal with the Clans Warships?
What capabilities within your TO&E do you have to deal with them - for if you do not have anything then you might as well surrender now!
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NAC's as well as NPPCs and such do more damage
One question – what are the NACs and NPPCs attached to when engaging a Clan Warship circa 3050 – 3051?
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So I win, as I got more forces.
Tactics and fighting using unorthodox measures will negate the power of the numerically / technologically superior – Vietnam ….
MAD – Mutually Assured Destruction – this is the end sum game for when nuclear ordinance is used in a proliferated manner …. Still does not change the fact the Clans used a WMD on a civilian target and in response DC should have used nuclear weapons against the Jaguar warship (as it is their only available weapon system circa 3050-3051)
Logic dictates that sooner or later ships will be created with one function – the elimination of enemy bases from orbit.
25 June 3144 – Palmyra Disaster – orbital bombardment on the troops on the ground ….
As soon as one warship was used for orbital bombardment the Battlemech era became an almost obsolete weapon system - other than acting for their clean up duties.
The future of war is in warship production.
The only way to negate a warship orbital bombardment is with shield technology!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 12:14 PM
66.74.60.165
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Explain how the rant about the Chaos March being in a strategic location and being rich does not answer how the fact that you left out units from the canon book because you don't like them, then say it is a canon fact hold true? The statement is very simple. Fact is not fact if you leave out information based on a biased view? I can understand not having all the information, but that is not the case here and you said it wasn't.
You ask yourself how do you deal with a warship. You ask yourself how do you deal with an enemy invasion force. This is all part of coming up with tactics tailored to take care of the issue. The resorting to nukes immediately is probably the most common thought, but one that opens up the use of nukes for any reason someone trying to become a dictator would use as an excuse. Barring making your own, as that takes to long, and you won't have a lot for a while, you do things like orbital batteries, placement in the jump zones, even doing the large fighter forces. All take time to do, and need the tech to do it. Except for Turtle Bay, the clans did not use the ships for a bombardment.
Going by your immediate call for nukes, back up some to the point where the IS first learned of the warships in the clan arsenal. It would have been at that point, nukes would have started being used, not after Turtle Bay.
Now what would happen after the IS started getting warships? They violated the agreement to not use them at all, now you have warships that need to be stopped by the enemy. Logical answer, the continued use of them. The FS would have used them to stop the DC invasion after the failed attack on the DC, when the warships took out their forces.
What are the missiles attached to in the invasion period? Ships. You will always need a platform to fire from, or to control the use of the weapons. But wait. You can fire non nukes and do more damage from a fighter, based on the games own rules. So real world logic doesn't apply to this, so non nukes are the better choice. Saying they aren't for the game is ignoring this fact. Also, arguing this for canon is just ignoring the rules.
Warships are built for one thing. Kill anyone that is an enemy. Doesn't matter where they are. So wiping out a world from orbit, or destroying jumpships, or anything in between, they are made for one reason. They will be deployed in any manner when someone feels it is necessary. But warships are not the only thing that can drop things from orbit. Granted asteroids are much harder to control then weapons fire, but it can be done. It can be rigged to drop bombs from orbit as well.
The removing mechs as a way to fight battles was discuss, and the best way to do so would be to make sure the enemy can't get to your worlds. That destroys the game. I don't like that fact, but accept it as it is the truth.
As for shields, the statement above said they should have been utilized in the SL era, when it was invented. The Steiner arena would have been destroyed when it was first realized they had the tech. If no one else, Comstar would have stolen the tech and destroyed the arena. There is no logical way it would still be in use in 3025 given the succession wars damage. Even the Steiners would have ripped it apart to find it's secrets.
So you want something that isn't believable, that is it.
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Requiem
06/16/20 05:47 PM
101.185.79.245
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you left out units from the canon book
Which units? And from what time frame?
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orbital batteries, placement in the jump zones
Please refer to the forum topic – Nuclear Mines at the Jump Points? For reference, in which it was pointed out ….
“Standard jump points have two problems for mines:
1) They are millions, if not tens of millions, of kilometers across. BT weapon ranges are 900km max, and sensor ranges are mostly a few hundred thousand kilometers. You'd need billions of mines to blanket a standard jump point, and the minefield trick only works once. After that, JumpShips would use anywhere else around the proximity limit of a star system at slightly worse navigational rolls (see StratOps hyperspace travel rules, or prior books like AT2R, BattleSpace, and ye ancient DropShips & JumpShips).
2) Standard jump points are not in orbit around the star, so all the mines need some stationkeeping mechanism - like a fusion engine - to avoid falling into the star. Fusion plumes tend to give away "stealth" mines, as do light sails (see TacOps).
The place to deploy mines are L1 pirate points, which do have quasi-stable orbits and the valid jump area might be less than a few hundred hexes across.”
Similar issues …. Orbital batteries also have the problem that if they do not have a weapon system with a longer range than the warship that arrives in-system, the warship can just stand off and use it for target practice!
Second – Timing – manufacturing will take a long time (years) to produce them in any quantities to be effective on a broad front and then there is the issue of placement – you will need a tug to put them in place as orbital batteries do not have a drive system – ie they are stationary.
Third– as stated many times – How does any of the House lord know the Clans will not use orbital bombardment again?
The Jaguars used it at Turtle Bay and the Falcons threatened to use it a second time.
As the leader of a House can you just ignore the situation and hope it goes away? The simple answer is no you cannot – so what do you do?
So in all reality Orbital batteries are not very effective – even over key worlds they do not offer a high degree of protection when the enemy arrives with a warship.
Thus WoB Drones (similar to the Star League era ones) are your best bet – however there is a timing issue in that they do not exist circa 3050-3051.
So again – what weapon system do you have in your arsenal?
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Now what would happen after the IS started getting warships? They violated the agreement to not use them at all, now you have warships that need to be stopped by the enemy. Logical answer, the continued use of them. The FS would have used them to stop the DC invasion after the failed attack on the DC, when the warships took out their forces.
Sorry but you have lost me here ….
Which agreement did the House Lords agree to that related to the non proliferation of Warships?
Should this be the Non-proliferation of Nuclear Weapons? Ares Conventions – formally renounced at the beginning of the First Succession War – plus Article 1 only forbade their use against civilian targets and military targets within 75,000 kilometers of a planet. Thus warships are fair game.
Article 2 forbade orbital bombardment except against vital military targets which were not anywhere near populated areas.
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What are the missiles attached to in the invasion period? Ships. You will always need a platform to fire from, or to control the use of the weapons. But wait. You can fire non nukes and do more damage from a fighter
Thus as IS warships do not exist circa 3050 – 3051, and modifying a Drop-ship is against the rules – this leaves only the humble fighter – and yet Kamikaze runs into the bridge are a canon fact – what would happen if you detonated a nuclear - warhead after striking through to the internal bridge of warship or for that matter any internal area of a warship?
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Warships are built for one thing. Kill anyone that is an enemy. Doesn't matter where they are. So wiping out a world from orbit, or destroying jumpships, or anything in between,
And yet what does the rules say about fighters?
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That destroys the game
The re-conquest of Terra from the WoB – no didn’t destroy the game …..
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shields,
The early prototype within the Steiner Stadium was built for close Mech Combat;
Sopping anything larger than this might prove a problem;
Thus many years of R&D will be required to improve upon the Mk. I before a serviceable working model can stop WMDs and can be assigned to Mechs as a portable defense unit.
Yes it would not be available in 3025 – however by 3050 when the Clans arrive and their warships arrive this is another issue all together.
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So you want something that isn't believable, that is it.
Steiner stadium
Blue shield Particle Field Damper System
Sounds like the start of the IS technology is there – just need additional time and R&D and who knows how far it will go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 07:08 PM
66.74.60.165
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Stop responding if you can remember what you wrote or reread it.
Canon Fact …….
20 Year Update –
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (not including the 4 I removed due to the impossibility of their existence)
This is the post put up by you. Removing units and saying it is fact is completely wrong.
There is no statement of placing mines. Simple control ship, such as a dropship, can activate remote 'drones' to fire on incoming ships. I want to say this is part of teleoperated missile mechanics. The SDS system in a skeletal form would work. Transports and such can be used as the delivery package, if you don't want to waste useable dropships. Fighters could be done as well. Trying to say they can be jammed yet the WOB ones couldn't is where the games bs come into effect. But then lock onto target, and send off the 'missile'. No need for updates as the onboard computer can drive it into the enemy ship.
As they did in all wars, you research things you don't have to counter the enemy's advantages. Radar came about to counter air raids, as well as anti air. Machine guns removed the cavalry threat. This is part of why the IS lost so much territory. They were looking into countering the warships when the truce went into effect. It also explains why they didn't have reinforcements hitting behind clan lines as you didn't know how many warships they had. This is also why the wolfpack idea wouldn't work well.
Can't figure out that if the IS gets warships, they would ABSOLUTELY bombard worlds with them, and not the bs exceptions. They would drop them directly on capitals and any place they thought would destroy the enemy forces, even those doing patrols in an other wise civilian city. They did so with nukes and other WMDs. Both the CC and the DC used poisons since 3025, and continue to use them. Warships would be more easy to use, and they do NOT irradiate the worlds. As you said about the HPG. They would find a way to use it as a weapon. Warships are just a gun waiting for an excuse to be used. And some moron would definitely use it.
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ghostrider
06/16/20 07:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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What happens when you do a Kamikaze run with a non nuke in the game? Wow. You can do more damage, even if you don't penetrate to the bridge. No need for the nukes. But better yet, use those very non nuke missiles and fire them, while the fighter changes course to continue functioning and doing more damage. What a concept.
It should not be that hard to make a force ejection to push a bomb away from a fighter without it going off. Or use the jumpbomber principle and let inertia take the bomb into a ship.
The use of nukes WILL cause others to start using them, as the excuse of losing without them will play out more and more. You can not sterilize the game and say it is logical or realistic. You can try and make sure those playing do NOT use the weapons like this. Removal is changing the whole game and history. The SL and first wars would not have had the nukes being used, so therefore, more non radioactive damage would have been done, as well as more casualties on both sides, as ground fights would be more prevalent.
With a fighter or any other type of non warship units, you have to be in range of them firing back, or 'seeing their eyes'. A warship is basically an ICBM on steroids. You can bombard things and not have to realize those blips are people. Full city destruction at the press of a single button. It disconnects the power mad morons that would mash the button like a sewing machine in use from seeing the people dieing from it. It is worse then nukes in the aspect that it is not a one time use weapon. Bombs are about the only weapon on a fighter that isn't a targeted weapon. They are limited to basically what they are shooting at, and some missed shots.
The game is Battle tech, not Aerotech, or battle space. The entire thing they call the WOB event is crap. That is not really in debate.
Did you bother seeing the statement before it being bs? The point where it has been around since before the fall of the Star League but never used in anything but the arena? Guess not. Or maybe comprehensive reading can't distort that.
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Requiem
06/17/20 12:26 AM
101.185.79.245
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20 Year Update –
Federated Commonwealth 268 Regiments , 1 Battalion
The Former Capellan Confederation 26 Regiments (not including the 4 I removed due to the impossibility of their existence)
By citing this book which units, circa 3050, have I removed and have by doing so made a factual error?
Are you attempting to say that the second house books (which have a new unit list) is the true canon list? However if this is so how do you go from the 20 year update to tis new book when you compare the 20 year update to those units assigned to the Clan Invasion?
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No need for updates as the onboard computer can drive it into the enemy ship.
i.e. a Kamikaze attack.
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Simple control ship, such as a dropship, can activate remote 'drones' to fire on incoming ships
Dragu – Year introduced 3065 - Problem is that only the WoB have access to this information to manufacture control equipment for a drop-ship and then there is the second problem that they were introduced in 3065 – Thus for 3050 – 3051 they do not exist and as such will have no ability to actually do anything in the initial invasion. There is also the problem that anything drop-ship sized can be fired upon by the war-ship thus creating the problem as being able to actually close on the warship to cause any damage whatsoever becomes a highly improbable event unless their gunners don’t know what they are doing and the drop-ship can outrun the warship over an extended period of time and then there is also the problem of the control signal’s range from the command unit to the drone drop-ships the command unit will have to remain within range to control their drones so what happens when the warship spots the command unit and decides to target it.
Thus making this idea as about as useful as putting a cat flap in an elephant house circa 3050-3051.
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This is part of why the IS lost so much territory. They were looking into countering the warships when the truce went into effect
Really? 31 October 3050 to November 3051 when Operation Revival resumes with the 5th Wave
Capital Missiles? Rediscovered by FS in 3051 – However were not formally introduced to 3056?
Thus making them of no use whatsoever with the resumption of war and only become of any use during the a few years into the 15 year truce?
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It also explains why they didn't have reinforcements hitting behind clan lines as you didn't know how many warships they had.
This is still a tactically sound move for the wolf pack operating within the deep periphery – pitiful writing and plot development in my opinion is the issue here.
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Can't figure out that if the IS gets warships, they would ABSOLUTELY bombard worlds with them, and not the bs exceptions. They would drop them directly on capitals and any place they thought would destroy the enemy forces, even those doing patrols in an other wise civilian city. They did so with nukes and other WMDs. Both the CC and the DC used poisons since 3025, and continue to use them.
And?
BattleMechs are therefore no longer the Kings of the battlefield, warships are!
So circa 3050-3051 all the Clans need to do is send their warships out as their vanguard and their reguar units can just mop up and garrison what ever remains.
And as the IS do not have any ability to stop the Clans they win ……
So how are your House Lords going to stop this from eventuating as this must have been a real fear for them?
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What happens when you do a Kamikaze run with a non nuke in the game?
There are game rules and then there are real world physics rules (which requires house rules).
If you believe in one over the over go with what works.
However – one issue regarding missiles fired from aerospace fighters - Anti ship missiles came into the game in 3071 – 20 years too late for the initial invasion of 3050-3051. Thus we are back to Kamikaze….
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The use of nukes WILL cause others to start using them,
Correct – so you have two options – one continue using them with impunity or two drive everyone to a summit and hash out a new Ares conventions rules.
Even the Clans would realize that it is in their best interest to come to a summit and hash out the rules.
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You can bombard things and not have to realize those blips are people.
For drop-ship and above yes.
For aerospace fighter – no – the rules of warships with regards to a fighters attack is clear?
They send out their own fighters or make a run for it and when the IS fighters get within standard LRM AA range the warship can open fire then – and by then one Kamikaze (using real world physics rules) and adios warship …
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The game is Battle tech, not Aerotech, or battle space.
And yet the box set exists ….
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the WOB event is crap.
And yet the technology for this era exists ….
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Did you bother seeing the statement before it being bs? The point where it has been around since before the fall of the Star League but never used in anything but the arena? Guess not. Or maybe comprehensive reading can't distort that.
And yet it has been studied for how long?
Can anyone explain why it has not been reverse engineered and used on a industrial scale to protect cities and warships?
Like many things that become a technological liability in the game they are consigned to the scrap heap – whereas in any true military fashion it would have been weaponized asap …..
Just add it to the list of things that do not make any sense in the game ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/17/20 12:27 AM)
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ghostrider
06/17/20 01:15 AM
66.74.60.165
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Kamikaze is not the same as guided missile attacks. Kamikaze is human flow suicide units.
And the fact that you can remotely fly ships means you can do something close to the SDS. You have a controller that controls one ship, and have banks of those controllers. Once you lock in the targeting of a ship, it should keep going towards that ship. Visual recognition should suffice. But then it would seem all advance targeting systems were nuked before the SL was dead.
What is wrong with looking for a way to counter the warships when the truce went into effect? Discoveries don't happen in a week for large scale weapons. It took the FS 5 years to make the missiles. So where is this a really concept? Had the truce not been done, they would have been deployed sooner. Once the truce went into effect, they were not needed as badly. So again. Where is the really concept coming from?
It is a poor tactical plan to send the few ships you have, in order to try and find a supply line that could very well have warships there to wipe out the entire force, or worse, capture it and use it to get forces into more locations that no one knows they are there. Again, the comprehensive reading skills have been wrong on the canon numbers. The fantasy looking glass seems to be over used. The alt is not canon. Your numbers for the alt are not used in canon. Saying canon had your numbers and blew using them correctly doesn't work.
So you think the game would be better using warships to wipe out worlds, over having soldiers piloting mechs? And you think this would not destroy the game? Then do so with the alt, and stop even hinting at canon being part of it. This would make life so much easier then fixing what you can an impossible to believe story line that is full of holes. This is the primary logical sense. Stop using the flawed background and start from new. But that isn't what you want. You want everyone to change the game to your view.
As stated before, this is not presenting an alternative game line, but a means to say the developers are wrong for writing their story, their way, for their game.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 01:32 AM
66.74.60.165
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Does the game say nukes are the ultimate weapon? No.
Does that mean arguing the game rules support your view of what should happen? No.
Arguing the Death Star can destroy a world, so therefore, it should exist in Battle Tech? No.
If the Space Fold system on the SDF1 works, it should work in Battle Tech? No.
Reread up above where it says leave canon completely and start a new universe. This one is full of holes and will never work. Sheesh.
So look at it logically. There were agreements already in place not to use WMDs before in the game and that was broken. So you suggest agreeing not to use them again will stop them from being used in the future, and you believe this will work?
Two words. Logic fail.
Agreements only last as long as punishment can be done, or it helps those in the agreement. Once one side thinks they can get away with it, they will. Suggesting using nukes on an enemy turns you into the whole WOB offensive.
Your complaint about the FS being pretty well destroyed when the DC wiped out their forces from orbit is the exact thing that will happen if you allow warships to rule. Soon the only way to survive is in traveling packs, that drop to a world for resources only.
The Aerotech box set came out to support the BattleTech box set. It was meant to allow players to play the space part of an invasion, either being the attacker or defender. It was not meant to replace ground combat. But as people have said, air power will ultimately destroy ground combat when brought to the logical conclusion. So they didn't push Aerotech. Warships are a mistake to bring back into the game. The balance on them is too greatly out of balance. Not powerful enough, and the costs make them useless. Too powerful, and those that don't have them lose quickly. One good warship will take worlds with just the threat of bombarding them.
Again, you fail to understand the importance of it being around in the SL times. It was never USED in that time. So the retcon is bad enough there, but the ENTIRE history of the IS from the SL is screwed up. Nothing to protect SL assets including their warships, worlds, stations, and so on. This would have dramatically shifted the balance in the periphery wars to the point of not needing the forces on Terra to be depleted so badly. Then the attacks on Terra. This could well have destroyed the SLDF before they even got to Terra, as the tech would be in Amaris hands.
Now this tech not being used in the first war means things like Defiance were damaged. If not, then the entire first war would have been different.
And the question of HOW the Tech got into Steiner hands isn't answered. Was it in Mariks hands then went to Steiner when Solaris was taken? Was there other examples scattered around the IS? Focus on the whole story, not just the little slice you don't like. This is where logic comes in. The WHOLE story.
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Requiem
06/17/20 04:02 AM
101.185.79.245
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Kamikaze is not the same as guided missile attacks. Kamikaze is human flow suicide units.
Correct.
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And the fact that you can remotely fly ships means you can do something close to the SDS.
Except for the fact that canon technology does NOT allow remotely controlled aerospace fighters circa 3050-3051.
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What is wrong with looking for a way to counter the warships when the truce went into effect?
1 year truce - How are you going to get the Clans to agree to attend a summit when their Khans and sa-khans are on their way back to the Clan Home worlds to decide who the next il-Khan is?
15 year truce – How are you going to get the Khans to agree to anything when they have just been beaten by the ComGuards?
To get the Clans to a sit down summit you will need to create a imperative event to force them to the table i.e. multiple nuclear strikes committed by Lyran and Combine forces.
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Had the truce not been done, they would have been deployed sooner.
Sorry but the technological development of a new weapon system is not dependent upon on whether a truce occurs or not – it is usually due to materials, energy, technology breakthroughs etc….. so the future date cannot be changed.
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Once the truce went into effect, they were not needed as badly. So again. Where is the really concept coming from?
And yet everyone is going to believe in the power of a signed piece of paper ……. How well did that work for Chamberlain (WW2) when e declared Peace in our time?
If it holds, great …. But when if and when it is broken every force must be ready for the repercussions …. And that means anti ship missiles.
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It is a poor tactical plan to send the few ships you have, in order to try and find a supply line that could very well have warships there to wipe out the entire force
First, no one can tell what the is the number of jumships available – the only thing that comes close is the 4th Succession War – and when comparing the number of units in the field during 3050-3051 to that of the 4th Succession War it is clear there is a massive surpluss of ships available.
Second, research the idea and the strategies of theWW2 Wolfpack …..
Third, The Alt History has never been that same as that of the Canon History – thus comparing apples to oranges again ….
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So you think the game would be better using warships to wipe out worlds, over having soldiers piloting mechs? And you think this would not destroy the game?
Comprehension of what I wrote once more?
If one side has warships and the other does not and you are told you are not allowed any weapon system to fight the warships – question is would you use that warship to win ensuring your side does not sustain casualties whist inflicting massive damage to your enemy because you have a weapon system that can reduce your enemies forces to ‘scarp’ metal?
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As stated before, this is not presenting an alternative game line, but a means to say the developers are wrong for writing their story, their way, for their game.
Are you happy with the Clan Invasion arc? Anything you want to change ….
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Does the game say nukes are the ultimate weapon? No.
Then answer the question – 3050 – 3051 what weapon system within your TO&E do you have to fight against Clan Warships?
As the only weapon system that can get close enough is aerospace fighter – and then the only legal canon attack is using a bombing run – so what are you going to do next?
Plus historically and culturally the Kamikaze has been used previously with a samurai culture?
Plus the death star is not the greatest science fiction weapon – Have a look at the Gall Force Weapon System – The System Killer where they turn a star into a supernova!
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So you suggest agreeing not to use them again will stop them from being used in the future, and you believe this will work?
One of the biggest issues in the game is maintaining balance
Where is the balance? when one side has warships and the other does not and when you come up with a means of destroying those warships (and thus returning balance to the game) you are told you are a game heretic!
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Your complaint about the FS being pretty well destroyed when the DC wiped out their forces from orbit is the exact thing that will happen if you allow warships to rule.
And yet this occurred in canon …. So, how long before this occurs again – and then all the time as WMDs were used in the Jihad era ….. and yet after the Jihad era how many times have WMDs been used?
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The Aerotech box set came out to support the BattleTech box set…...
Regimental Combat Teams – Any military comprises combat, support, transport elements that must work together to achieve a common goal – Space, Air, Ground and Water
Eliminating any of these elements, in my opinion, creates a limited and sanitized game – the game should be fighting your way to the world – through the drop – landing – and from there into a massive battle until one side wins or loses. Thus the need for many maps to make the game a more strategic and comprehensive game.
If you want a sanitized version of a campaign then that is your choice.
If there are problems with the game then get TPTB to devise new rules so that the game flows better … or create your own home rules ….
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Again, you fail to understand the importance of it being around in the SL times. It was never USED in that time. So the retcon is bad enough there, but the ENTIRE history of the IS from the SL is screwed up.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Steiner_Stadium
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Nashan_Diversified
Steiner Stadium – what back story?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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Well does that mean the rules need to be changed before you can do anything about a rewrite? It is entirely a hole in the rules saying remote controlled things don't work in the game. Which is a contradiction to the fact they had automated things like miner and assembly machines. The SDS is a big contradiction to this. But then if they did have it, someone would definitely say they could have remote controlled mechs and such.
Who said anything about a summit? The context of the discussion on looking for ways to counter the warships was with weapon systems. A summit is not going to do much but end with no results, or be broken when the first opportunity arises.
And the date can be changed for research. Once the truce went into effect, research would be cut back, as they were not needed as urgently as it would be if the war was still raging. Funds would be moved over to rebuilding things as well as trying to aid those worlds that were hit but didn't fall. Another simple thing that seems to be lacking in the 'view'.
Funny. No one would believe in the truce, yet they would believe in the same concept of a signed agreement not to use the weapons they agreed not to use in the past and was violated several times? There is a difference in the truce. The current clan rulers would abide by their word. Anyone replacing them would be suspect. Even the Jaguars and Falcons would abide by the agreement. It was made by their Ilkhan.
Read the wiki and the jumpships and dropships books. It is PRINTED that the numbers are around 2000-3000 jumpships. This was pointed out a few times, so the lie of it not being printed needs to stop.
And if canon and alt were apples and oranges, why do you continue to say canon is wrong, then compare it to the alt? Logic, weither basic or advanced, seems to be missing in this thought.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 01:23 PM
66.74.60.165
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What the hell are aerofighters and assault dropships? There ARE weapons that can be used. I am not saying they are very effective, but they are there. You claim there are so many fighters in the FC/DC, so where are they? And with this, it is more realistic that one side has weapons the other side doesn't. Fair has NEVER been the norm in any sort of combat situation, or war.
And to answer your question on if someone would use a warship to inflict damage on the enemy, maybe you should actually read the entire clan invasion. Only once was a warship used to take out a target with bombardment. So no. They did NOT use it to wipe out an enemy to spare their ground forces. Much like nukes, the warship should not be something that is used like people would use them for. I don't see you complaining the CC didn't use nukes in order to stop the FS from ripping them apart. You specifically said they would not, yet this is the same scenario with different weapons.
As said, fighters and dropships are two weapons you can use to stop a warship. Not effective by there. Then you have the ability to board the warship and take it. Again, not effective.
As a side note, I have not heard of the gail force weapon, but then the death star was not used on a star. Destabilizing it would be possible with the death stars beam. And yet, neither exists in BattleTech, so what do either matter? Nukes are not the ultimate weapon in Battle tech.
The balance thing is why there has been no real advantage kept by any of the houses. They destroyed the balance with the formation of the FC. So far, they have not done anything that fixes this issue, but caused even more when trying. Now with the next 'big war', they may well have the DC break apart, allowing the FS to regain New Avalon and push the DC back. But with the FC going like it was, it was only a matter of time before the economic might, coupled with the better tactics of the FS, before they ruled it all. The civil war is the thing that stopped it, yet that should not have happened. But it did. Oh well. They need war to sell the product, and that means choices people aren't going to like.
Wait. Didn't Comstar and WOB come from the SL before it fell? The very beginning of not using nukes to advance their military position? Yet they were falling heavily during the Amaris war. The SLDF use them when the left for their own worlds, and Comstar/WOB were not caught using them. So the organization went from not using them, to trying to rid itself of their stockpile in a fit of rage. So where is this signed paper saying they won't use them gone? Oh yeah. Like any agreement, someone will violate it if it doesn't agree with their goals. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try. It just says don't rely on it.
So what does the Aerotech box set being in support of the game have to do with not destroying the main part of the game? Warships were not originally part of it. RCTs can function without warships. Warships will destroy the ground game.
That whole argument tries to counter the fact that you are not presenting an alternative, but using the alt to rip on the developers and game itself.
And a sanitized game.. Funny. You think that you can remove WMD and not have a sanitized game. They are more part of the game then warships are. I don't like it, but that is fact.
Oh. Now you see the issue with the forcefields. It must have been left by an alien race as it just appears and is being used for a sporting event using battlefield weapons. No back story, which means they don't have to explain anything about it. And hoping people forget about it, so there isn't a push to find out where it came from and why it wasn't used. Imagine all those worlds that might have been saved, or less damaged when the nukes were being used. The shield detonates missiles instead of being hit by them. Would that mean bombs exploding in the upper atmosphere/space instead of ground level? The entire history of the devastation would not have been there with the use? Or certain areas spared the horrors? Yeah. I can see why this wasn't presented in anything other then secret tech being used to make one arena different from the others.
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Requiem
06/17/20 06:18 PM
101.185.79.245
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……someone would definitely say they could have remote controlled mechs and such.
And yet the rules say otherwise and as such you are therefore outside canon and into the area of House Rules for a re-write Alt Universe.
So unless you break the canon rules here you do not get a remote controlled aerospace fighter until the Jihad era.
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Who said anything about a summit?
Me,
3050-3051 - In a universe where one side has warships and the other does not (and at the same time the rules say you are not allowed to manufacture PT Dropship Craft and you are also not allowed ship killer missiles) you are left with but one option – Nuclear Devices (with House rules utilizing real world physics) with aerospace fighters.
So again unless you break the canon rules here (with regards to construction rules / when ship killer missiles are allowed into the game) there is really only two options – Nuclear war (again using real world physics and not the firecrackers in the game) on the same scale as that of the Jihad era with the Clans or two you have a summit and hash out the rules regarding not only warships but all WMDs on the Battlefield with the Clans.
Also, if anyone breaks the summit agreement the IS and the Clans immediately return the M.A.D. scenario of nuclear apocalypse.
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Rules – restoring balance to the game - Warships
This is one of the areas the Canon game, within the Clan Invasion, that everything falls over.
Hanse, Theodore and his father Takashi are all alive in 3050-3051.
The Clans have used their warships twice and the Cannon setting expects us to believe that these three people will just take it right up __________ and do nothing!
This is so against their characters it is not funny.
The warship is the biggest gun on the battlefield and as such must now become the primary target for all the IS militaries.
There are no PT Drop-ships with Naval weapons (as this will take time to manufacture pocket warships) – Thus this leaves only the fighter to engage the Warship circa 3050-3051 – and this therefore requires the biggest bang you can get (in cannon this means HE is more destructive than nuclear – in the real world this would be the other way around) – so you get a nuclear war against clan warships! – or/- you further break the timeline rules and allow ship killer missiles in at an earlier stage than that of canon with HE warheads that can severely damage warships.
The only other option is to allow the IS to have warships prior to the Clan Invasion so that Naval engagements can take place. Or/- Warships are banned from the game altogether.
These therefore are the only logical paths that can be considered for an accurate 3050-3051 Clan Invasion setting.
Thus as a GM choose you poison ….. how many / which canon rules do you want to break to create a more level battlefield ?
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Funds would be moved over to rebuilding things as well as trying to aid those worlds that were hit but didn't fall. Another simple thing that seems to be lacking in the 'view'.
Logic dictates quite the opposite – the warship is the biggest gun on the battlefield and as such must be considered the primary kill target – As such R&D is required to remove this treat asap – i.e. Ship killer missiles must become reality asap – thus more funding to make it a reality asap.
When the Bismarck was let loose in WW2 did they just allow it free reign or did they hunt it down and kill it asap?
QED
Pitiful plot development is no excuse for doing nothing at this stage with regards to Clan Warships.
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Funny. No one would believe in the truce, yet they would believe in the same concept of a signed agreement not to use the weapons they agreed not to use in the past and was violated several times?
WW1 – Poison Gas en mass; WW2 – treaty and no one uses poison gas only HE.
Canon – The 15 year truce ….
The concept of a signed non proliferation agreement can hold in war time even with all the Clans!
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It is PRINTED that the numbers are around 2000-3000 jumpships.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Essay:JumpShip_distribution “There is little canonical data regarding the total number of JumpShips operating in the Inner Sphere, or what classes even exist in which numbers….”
Best guess is NOT fact – there are NO facts anywhere as to the numbers / class distribution every House has at any time frame. All that can be done is to make a best guess as to the numbers / class available and my guess is far removed from yours. My Logic therefore holds.
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What the hell are aerofighters and assault dropships? There ARE weapons that can be used.
In a 3050-3051 setteing
It will be another 6 years (3057) before Drop-ships are beginning to be equipped with naval weapons – plus Clan Warships’ weapons can track and kill something as large as a drop-ship.
Aerospace fighters are small and fast enough so that the warships’ main naval weapons cannot be used aginst them – the Navy has aerospace fighters in numbers to engage the clans
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so where are they?
Attached to individual Units
Unattached and operating as their own units
Attached to Merchant Naval operations
…. More than enough aerospace fighters (refer back to previous forum this was discussed in detail)
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Only once was a warship used to take out a target with bombardment. So no. They did NOT use it to wipe out an enemy to spare their ground forces.
As stated who knows how many times …. How does the leaders of the IS know the Clans will not use them in this manner again? Their mere presence is a threat that needs to removed from the battlefield …. So do the leaders of the IS know this through tea readings or using an Ouija board or how about they used blood hounds …… (satire!)
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I don't see you complaining the CC didn't use nukes in order to stop the FS from ripping them apart. You specifically said they would not, yet this is the same scenario with different weapons.
This is apples and oranges once more …. Two different time frames and political / military situations ….
Refer back to Forum – Operation Rat Revival
Yes the CC can use them – However FedCom will return in kind and at the same time. Also if they do use them then Sun Tzu and Kali’s ability to ever regain the throne is now 0.0000000000000001% as no one will trust them again.
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fighters and dropships are two weapons you can use to stop a warship. Not effective by there. Then you have the ability to board the warship and take it. Again, not effective.
Drop-ships – can be targeted by warship’s main naval weapon batteries;
Aerospace fighters – can bypass naval weapons and can only be stopped with opposing fighters or by the warships AA standard batteries.
However if you use true physics nuclear warheads rather than AE – one 5KT strike, even a near miss detonation, and the ship will be obliterated. As for the Canon HE warheads – yes you can use them however the massive number of direct hits required to cripple a warship may pose a problem – where as in comparison to one real world nuke.
Shuttles – how many are armored for combat – and they will have to be under 5,000Kg (otherwise the warships main naval batteries can pick them up as a target). – Then the fighter will have to breach the warships fighter doors to allow the shuttle and its crew of marines to gain access - and from there they will have to capture the warship, deck by deck – so how many marines can you put in a shuttle?
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Nukes are not the ultimate weapon in Battle tech.
Then what is?
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They destroyed the balance with the formation of the FC. So far, they have not done anything that fixes this issue, but caused even more when trying.
Then consider the discrepancy between the 20 year update book and that of the second House Books – FedCom went from 280 Regiments down to about 110 Regiments with no explanation whatsoever.
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Oh well. They need war to sell the product, and that means choices people aren't going to like.
Unless something changes soon the table top version of the game will fall. Not enough access to new products and new gamers. However the real issues stem from the mismanagement of the product when the TV series was put out – marketing / production issues should have transformed the game into something similar to Warhammer and yet ………
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Comstar
Formed after the Amaris War – prior to exodus – is recognized as a pacifist organization until the end of the 4th SW – when the ComGuard is used for the first time as guards on their HPG stations.
WoB used them ….
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So where is this signed paper saying they won't use them gone?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ares_Conventions
Refer to section entitled Signers – sorry to say but ComStar did not ever sign the document – so like any agreement if you don’t sign it you cannot be held for violating it ….
And again if someone did violate it then the game goes straight to M.A.D. Jihad on steroids.
There comes a time when everyone needs to rely on the documents less madness will ensure ….
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what does the Aerotech box set being in support of the game have to do with not destroying the main part of the game?
The warship is now part of the game ….. or should we remove all omni as they were never part of the original box sets?
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You think that you can remove WMD and not have a sanitized game.
If WMDs are a fact of the game then what is conventional warfare? Or should have the US military used nukes in Korea, Vietnam …… and every other engagement they have been in for the past 75 years?
Should they have been used throughout the entire 4th SW rather than the one in the CC?
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Now you see the issue with the forcefields..
Steiner Coliseum is a Star League Lost Tech device – like the Black Boxes these technological marvels should have been integrated into the game …..
Like all technology – they can be a benefit or a detriment to the game it all comes down to their rules and their application within the game ….
They could have been used to remove nukes from the game ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 06:58 PM
66.74.60.165
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It is very stupid that remote control technology would be lost. But it does follow the bs I have been calling out. It doesn't work unless the enemy threat 'invents' it. The rules say 30 light years is the max for a jump. It was that way for years. Now WOB went further and it is only now they add in safely to the range.
The clans would never sit down and agree to not using warships. It is part of their history and nature. As most don't really care that much for their civvies, there is no way they are caring about the IS civvies. And for all the houses to hit anyone that violates the agreement? Hasn't happened in the past. No wars were stopped so they could hit someone using banned weapons. It won't change in the future. Not saying an agreement wouldn't happen with the IS powers, but I know it won't hold.
Warships were used once for a bombardment. The other incident used the threat of annihilation to force a surrender. It has been done in the past and will in the future. The thing that should be focused on for something like this is Phelan discussing what would happen to one world if they fought. Not from the bridge of a warship, but on the ground where he could be shot. And the leaders were doing things to try and counter the warships. Most of it was trying to get research done to deal with them. They are warlords. That is not in debate. But as warlords, they know when you are just feeding an enemy troops with little hope of defeating them. Takashi knew this, which is why he wasn't so keen on sending troops into battle that they would only get killed in. This is why the fight to the death bs doesn't happen like you want. Withdraw, repair, then re hit. Might be elsewhere but live to fight another day is very valid in the DC. Cowardice, such as having a lance of mechs face one infantryman and the mechs run is an example. Good faith effort is the key. But still something that won't register as you think any military personnel in the DC should stand and die.
This is logic. War is not fair. Someone always has a better weapon.
Now. The nukes are not that powerful in the game, so just drop it from your complaint about canon and the warships. You want it in the alt, then do so. This is yet another reason why you need to just drop canon and do a pure alt universe. But you would rather complain and rip on the developers for the hell of it.
Go to the official website and put this up. I seriously doubt you aren't banned from there. And that is the main place to go in order to get things changed.
Besides death matches the bs of leveling sides is garbage. If you claim to be in a campaign then you should not be changing out mechs because it doesn't fit in the battlefield. You are assigned to an archer, then you use it even if you are in a dense forest. Switching to a Hunchback is bs.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 07:16 PM
66.74.60.165
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Let's see. The Bismarck was an unsupported ship that faced warships, not things like PT boats. It took a fleet of warships to take it down. Had it had a proper escort, the Bismarck may have been alive today. Now for more information. The U.K. knew it had to take it down, or risk every ship in their nation. It wasn't like they were in Canada, where they had time to come up with a way to counter it. The distance is where your calculations go wrong. It isn't like you can have a fleet go from say the U.S. and have them on the African coast in an hour or two. Reaction forces are the next thing you will scream about, yet the entire front has need for them. Do you think they would sit in one spot until a specific world called, unless it was an ambush. And then they are not a reaction force, but the ambush support.
When one world says it's under attack, the reaction force heads to it. When a dozen worlds say they are under attack and you only have one or two forces ready, where do the others come from?
From the logic in the alt, they pop out of the butts of those in trouble. In canon, they don't exist. So this complaint is a bust.
With the immediate threat over with, research to deal with it would be shifted to other things as the funds would be what would dictate it. Where do you thing some of the funds to rebuild and fortify the borders come from? Oh yeah. The nations have unlimited funds and resources.
Again, putting up only half of a statement to try and lie. The original jumpships and dropships said around 2000 jumpships were in service for the game. The wiki says 2000-3000 but notes that this isn't likely as it would not cover much. This was already posted a while back when this very subject was put to rest. If you can't remember that, then it explains why logic continually fails.
The IS didn't have capital weapons during the invasion, so you use what you have. The issue is, what they had wasn't much. If they could, a massive fleet could engage the warship and take it out. It would be very costly to the IS nation that did so. But it was still something that could be done. The scenario you paint is akin to someone with a shot gun and 20 shots having to face the entire army of an enemy nation. This isn't the case.
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ghostrider
06/17/20 07:36 PM
66.74.60.165
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The previous post does NOT have numbers of how many fighters are in the IS. If there were so many, then why did Towne only have a single fighter to protect it from the Black Dragons? How is it that a single Leopard dropship can land a lance of mechs without being destroyed by the hornet's nest of fighters? Oh yeah. These ISN'T the nest.
Two different military situations? The CC was being wiped out as a nation. The FC is being invaded and seems to be getting wiped out.
The CC had an overwhelming force coming in, and the people did not agree with the practices of the FS to rule them.
Hmmm. Then Comstar cuts off communications for both scenarios.
Apples and oranges applies only because of your personal preference. Then you complained that the FS gets ripped apart by the DC. Should the FS have used nukes to prevent this? In your scenario, the FS can do what ever, and no one can do it back. That doesn't work.
No explanation? They may not have said every little unit lost in the books, but start with the 3039 war. They lost a lot of units with that. Border wars and well as dealing with trying to pacify the Terran march would have worn down some of the units. And then add in how many were put into permanent garrisons. But it does go against their practice of having 10 new regiments formed for the 4th war. As written somewhere, they tried to rebalance the game. It failed.
The Ares convention. How long did that last before all the nations that signed it broke it? So it was toilet paper. This is the very thing some nations use to continue to do things that are horrible, and get away with it. Sign pacts and treaties, but still continue their old ways. And soon, they have done so much garbage, that when those that did sign finally have had enough, the idea of a treaty is brought up and the pattern repeats.
Still didn't answer how Aerotech being put out to support the main ground battle game and not destroying the main ground game have to do with breaking the balance?
The omni is a unit that was hinted at with the Mongoose mech. The game even says that, but the SL fell before it became a fact. Omnis can not bombard the surface from orbit. They have to land and become the dreaded land combat part of the game. Imagine that.
The use of, and the removal of is not the same thing. It is the threat of nukes that is better then actual use of them. I guess this is something you don't understand. It is how you keep an enemy from attacking you, as they fear the use of something that will kill them in large numbers. To actually use it, means anyone outside of this starts wondering if you will use it on them. Arms race comes to mind.
I don't know how to explain it any simpler. The shield technology was something that should have been addressed in the League books, and actually used. The fact that it's only use it the Steiner arena makes it a magical tech that should not exist at all.
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Requiem
06/17/20 09:05 PM
101.185.79.245
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It is very stupid that remote control technology would be lost.
Agree.
Considering the level of accuracy that can be used for drones - and then the next generation Q58-A Valkyrie stealth fighter drone …
Time to establish new construction house rules – and I have my unmanned Kamikaze aerospace fighter ….. (if needed)
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The clans would never sit down and agree to not using warships. It is part of their history and nature.
Then there are four choices …
1. M.A.D. Nuclear war that will make the Jihad era look sane;
2. Allow all IS militaries maintain Naval assets / ship killer missiles prior to the Clans arrival;
3. Remove all Clan Naval assets;
4. Allow all IS militaries access to next generation energy shield technology.
Out of these only number two (Allow all IS militaries maintain Naval assets / ship killer missiles prior to the Clans arrival) can be considered to be realistic for my Alt Universe Game.
(…. and in my opinion should have been included into the Canon game …. As the cannon story has too many issues.)
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As most don't really care that much for their civvies, there is no way they are caring about the IS civvies.
Not caring …. Thus partisan activity upon every captured world is now way beyond the initial 3% of the world they capture. Thus lets be conservative and increase this to 30% of the population of every world.
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No wars were stopped so they could hit someone using banned weapons.
History: George W Bush, Iraq and WMDs
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This is why the fight to the death bs doesn't happen like you want. Withdraw, repair, then re hit.
Question: How can you re-hit if every time you attempt to do so you forces are hit from space with impunity from a Clan Warship?
How can you fight if you are afraid of killing your troops?
So what is the immediate response necessary to keep your ground forces safe from an orbital bombardment?
With the only weapon delivery system available being an aerospace fighter it completely limits the games narrative.
Time to make changes!
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Someone always has a better weapon.
And then someone builds a better shield ….
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But you would rather complain and rip on the developers for the hell of it.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
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If you claim to be in a campaign then you should not be changing out mechs because it doesn't fit in the battlefield. You are assigned to an archer, then you use it even if you are in a dense forest. Switching to a Hunchback is bs.
This is why you need an Avatar (OmniMech).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/20 03:08 AM
66.74.60.165
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The fact that remote controls are not just military items. Remote control cars, planes and other toys would have to be missing entirely. And that would mean the Hi-Scout is illegal, as it has remote control drones that it sends out scouting.
The choices put up might be good for the alt, it would never work for the canon. The reason why is simple. With equal footing of tech and units, there is no real challenge the developers can come up with to challenge the IS. Nothing short of introducing aliens into the game could provide the numbers needed to really threaten everything. Honest, if that happens the game is done for.
As a side note, saying the game needs this or that from another game is the fact that it is copyrighted, and honestly, why play BattleTech if it is like other games that are set up for those rules/units? They have the system worked out.
Turtle Bay would not be the only one if the worlds caused that many problems. As said. The clans would not care how many died, as they are only IS barbarian freeborns. Not many could achieve anything in the clans, so why waste resources on keeping them? The base line of thought for a clanner.
Huh? No wars were stopped so someone could hit someone using banned weapons... was the statemen. How does the Iraq war come into this? The Iraq war was done to stop someone using those weapons. It isn't like Iran stopped harassing the countries involved so they could take out those banned weapons.
Let me get this straight. The fact that the IS did build warships needs to be rewritten? The only thing here is timing. The war started with the IS having no warships, but finally researched and built some. The threat at the time was stopped. With the logic you present, that would mean every battle would have to be rewritten from the original SL onwards. Saying canon needs to have an even and fair war isn't going to happen. If it does, the CC would never have been slammed like it was. The FS would not have had things like the Kentares massacre. Worlds would never have been nuked to death. Or maybe they would all have to be nuked in order for one side to gain an advantage.
Shields only do so much. The magical shield of the arena Is not really based on physics. It is in the game, but yet no stats are given for it, like how much damage can it take before it fails. Even then, it is more out there then the jump drives.
It also goes back to the fact the SL never USED the tech for anything. Not even to protect Kerensky's command ship, his mech, or even the SLDF HQ. Even the palace would have had it up. So either the tech was done after the League fell, which is highly unlikely, or It was never meant to be used, and was only put in to make the arena stand out from the other arenas.
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Requiem
06/18/20 09:28 AM
101.185.79.245
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remote control technology
Unfortunately the natural flow of technology within the game has many issues.
The Hi-Scout has one more issue …. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hi-Scout ….. “The vehicle's sensor suite includes infrared, seismic, sound, motion, radio, radar and hyperpulse to detect any unit within 60 kilometers.”
Where is this technology for Mechs, all types of vehicles and even aerospace …. detecting any unit within 60 Kilometers?
There are far to many technological gems written throughout the game that just go no where ….
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there is no real challenge the developers can come up with to challenge the IS
The Clans could have do it with a massive amount of re-organization ….
Dump their entire society – sibko’s, bidding every-thing;
Add in a true academy / boot camp that is open to everyone;
Add in a complement of all omni vehicles - including VTOL, Conventional fighters and bombers etc.;
Add in a dedicated infantry with a more advanced Grey Death Armor (all have jump jets attached with a jump distance of 4);
Provide a dedicated MASH system and logistics system;
Provide them with a couple of true Space Navy fleets – Carrier, battleships, frigates, crusers, destroyers, submarines etc;
At the same time make sure they treat their conquered people with respect and dignity - they provide technical assistance to help the worlds they conquer to have a better life;
Make sure their military is of a massive size;
Rather than invading at a point where you are fighting three IS realms at the same time come in at a point where you are attacking just one at a time. ….. and
…. yes you can give the IS a run for their money ….
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so why waste resources on keeping them?
Kentares Massacre upon multiple worlds? If the game went down this path I would probably burn all my books in disgust ….
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The fact that the IS did build warships needs to be rewritten? The only thing here is timing.
Correct …. Re-building Naval forces for all Houses starts 3040 so that when the Clans arrive within the IS in 3050 – when taking into account the number of ship-yards each House has – each house should have a minimum of a dozen ships each – Thus there is the ability for Naval battles in the game from the get go.
So when the Jaguars fire on Turtle Bay the DC send in three of their ships and slay it. – they can also transmit a message to the Jaguars and all the other Clans a warning as what will happen if they violate the Ares conventions again …..
Thus no nukes and no WMDs for the remainder of the Invasion and a reasonable back story (if written correctly).
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like how much damage can it take before it fails.
It has been in operation (on and off) for how many years? And how many gladiatorial mech’s have been in the arena at one time.
It is not as if all physics within the game is based on fact so adding one more should not really pose an issue …
There are Mech Shiels …. Might as well have upgraded energy shields …. And if they can be placed on Mechs then they can go on any ship as well as Drop, Jump and War ships …. And might as well put them on cities …. Thus making the idea of orbital bombardment irrelevant ….
Then it just comes down to each individual groups GM and their desire to integrate shields into the game … most would probably ditch the idea ….
For a back story the prototype shield could have been manufactured between the end of the Amaris War and that of Kerensky’s Exodus – and was then stashed away until it was found in the distant future … and someone had a limited idea as to what they could do with it … and hence we only got a stadium
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/20 12:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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Better then the portable units infantry deploy. The Pegasus scout tank was supposed to have superior detection with the extra weight it had left over as fractional accounting wasn't used in the 3026 book. The issue is the fluff of a lot of units didn't have any sort of tech to back them up. The command communications in say the Phoenix Hawks for one.
But back to the remote control thing. If you played the story line of HBS BattleTech, you know the unit finds a SL base that has advanced tech. Yet to get in, you fight remote controlled units. How is this possible if there isn't such a thing in the rules? I ask as things in the game become canon. The program for the SDS infects the ships computer and tries to use it as one of the drones, trying to explode the engines (fuel tanks).
The question of how much damage can the shields take before it fails is a question of making it capable of protecting say the palace from an orbital bombardment. The naval weapons do more damage then a few missed shots from a mech combat in the arena. Other questions of how large of an area can be covered, such as the size of a single 'unit' could only be a kilometer at best. Power use and a whole slew of things comes with that.
The biggest issue with the back story suggested is why would you waste it on an arena? Protect an important building or vault or something of that nature. And the idea that it would not have been torn down, or destroyed by sabotage comes to mind as well.
And one more thing about the shield. It is supposed to detonate missiles before it impacts on the shields. This is not something that would be kept limited to a gladiator pit. It does not say anything about detonating bombs, but anything with a warhead would probably work. So the bombs of an aerofighter attack could be negated. At least Capital missiles could be defended against at the least.
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Requiem
06/18/20 07:40 PM
101.185.79.245
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advanced tech
Steiner Grid – Again each individual GM will have to determine all the issues for their games.
Though in doing there may be unexpected consequences - the only advice I can give is to conduct a massive amount of beta testing – if the decision is made to bring it into the game.
Just establish a list of the grid’s properties - something along the lines of ….?
Size of Grid – Large Building / Dropship
Power Source – linked to the local power grid / Dropship engine
Protection against -
Missile
A/C
Laser
PPC
Amount of concentrated fire it can take before it shuts down – < > pnts
Time limit – given its size can only operate for a maximum time of 30 minutes before it needs to be shut down for an hour to allow the grid to cool down before it can once again be re-activated for 30 min….
and add a section on the bottom to evaluate the results post game
Remote controlled units – there is a disconnect between what is written in some books, etc. and what is allowed within the game.
The only option is to allow them in via House Rules.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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