Requiem
07/31/22 01:24 AM
1.147.82.21
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They could not supply it
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Camelot_Command
3050 - “Although Rhonda Snord is generally attributed with the rediscovery of Camelot Command, Franklin Sakamoto and the First Somerset Strikers had actually chanced across the base roughly one year earlier.”
Sept 3051 - Clan Jade Falcon task force - Since Rhonda Snord had called for, and won, a Trial of Possession for the base, it was assumed that their own honour code prevented the Clans from seizing it. It was eventually abandoned again after a few years due to its exposed position and the difficulty of bringing supplies that far behind enemy lines.
Look, I saw piggy flying ….
hydroponics and Aquaculture Tanks anyone?
Sorry but it is deranged to believe that the AFFC would just abandon the base when one nuke would have denied the facility to anyone one else!
This is a perfect example of how idiotic the storyline became – as what we have here is a Babylon 5 / Deep Space Nine for the Battletech game that could have been used for many new exciting scenarios – and yet was just abandoned because it appears that TPTB got bored with it, when in reality it is a very important forward base into the Falcon Territory and can be used to send fleets out to destroy Clan supply convoys … reconnaissance / tactical missions etc. – which again demonstrates that TPTB needed to actually do some research when designing the invasion …
Also how does the AFFC have problems with re-supplying the base – can anyone actually make any sense of this statement – and please don’t go back to the idea that there were not enough jump ships as that trope has been gone through again and again and has been shown time and again to be ludicrous within the invasion era.
What this also demonstrates is the point of hidden bases throughout the IS – even during the dark ages of technology all houses knew how to make bases on a moon
(refer Grey Death Legion – 2nd Book) thus the idea of not being able to manufacture / and resupply these hidden bases becomes a ludicrous concept!
Can you please conduct even the basic of research before making a statement such as –“ Defence drones? When did that become operational? I don't remember seeing much about them. I would guess after the Falcons started bringing it up to date.”
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech:_The_Animated_Series#Episode_9_-_Road_to_Camelot
“With dozens of the individually weak Mark 39 drones are already strafing the Clan ships, Adam's threat to throw hundreds more of the drones at them convinces the Clans to withdraw.”
i.e. the drones are active and in vast numbers!
Also in this same episode it was shown that Camelot has a self destruct device – so why wasn’t this used on the way out the door?
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As the game did not have pocket warships at that time
And when did the naval weapons become operational? The idea of non functional pocket warships 4 years into the invasion is beyond ludicrous – as shown many times they could have been active during the first year if TPTB did not create the most ludicrous of construction rules – thus demonstrating once again a proclivity for hobbling the IS Vs their Clans! (again in my strongly held opinion)
Place all your aerofighters to guard one facility
I find it fascinating how you can take what I wrote and turn it into the most absurd of statements. Who said anything about all as I stated multiple aerospace squadrons, or is this just comprehension of English?
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Anti mech trenches don't work when you have ships that can hot drop units directly on the facility at any point. This isn't land based combat on this.
Then can you please explain why the SLDF manufactured these mech trenches when they built Camelot Command?
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And the clans would destroy the base, rather then let the IS spoil it with their filth.
Survey shows! ….Bing Bong … zero … This is the Clans … Camelot Command is a holy temple to them, they would never ever destroy it, they would only attempt to capture it with the least amount of damage. If a Clansman did destroy it …. Multiple challenges in a circle of equals until that person is dead … DNA flushed from the program!
What we are discussing here is before the year of peace so who cares about it!
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The list of all units destroyed does not include every unit the DC or FC had.
You do realise that if you go through the Invasion site and have a printout of all FC / DC units you can actually work out their TO&E at any time?
How hard is it to use a fluro pen on a list of units? And make notes as you go …
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No one said the computer core from Camelot Command survived intact.
So Adam Steiner, Rhonda Snord and the AFFC were there for how long and no copy was made … even on the way out the door, can we get back to reality soon?
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There is nothing stated that the Dragoons should have had a set of complete maps for the IS when they first came in. They WERE looking for old SL bases. Nothing in the TH would have been left out of those maps.
Again Outreach …. As well as Snord’s hidden base beneath the Museum?
Can we, again, get back to reality soon?
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Comstar has helped the DC in recent history.
The bargain was for Star League era Mechs … having advanced weapons and electronics removed prior to delivery … how ticked off would you be?
Then there is the incident where a DC princess who wanted to join ComStar … how did that work out?
Kurita’s have long memories.
Waterly betrayed the IS when she ordered them to collude with the Clans … if this gets out she is dead!
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Plus they showed everyone they had warships a little later in the story. Did the realms demand they give over that information at that point?
Once again we see pitiful writing at is worst.
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Hanse and Melissa being alive means Katherine is not in any sort of position to even try and take the FC.
When does Hanse die of a stroke? June 52
Shortly there after she suggested giving the title to Victor
What happens if the Clans Take Terra by then or shortly after and the surrounding systems – Lyran space and Suns Space are no longer connected – Melissa and Katherine are in one half with Victor in the other … if Melissa in her grief offers Katherine the throne for one half of the FC to preserve the continuity of the government do you really believe she will say no?
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The lack of intel during the clan invasion as well as fighting units far superior to his own, as well as Nondi interfering with commands as she was in charge of the LC forces
As shown again in the 1st Somerset Strikers Anime – intel re the clans is readily available when a Clan soldier becomes POW and then becomes part of your Clan.
And again – Nondi is NOT in charge of the LC Forces at this stage!
And Again how many units got out of the war zone – so how much info got out with them?
And again Katherine is the correct person for the Clan War – being the reincarnation of Lucrezia Borgia – makes her eminently suitable to wage war on the Clans!
Time to take of those glasses that can only see her as a murderess!
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Supplies
Then why didn’t the forces of the IS take advantage of this so called lack of supples?
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You still have not provided a list of ships Defiance has
What? Sorry but you have lost me here … can you please explain?
And yet,
What if = ALT universe
Sorry but I am putting forward is a rational debate on the principal of what if, then what happens next ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 03:06 AM
45.51.181.83
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Oh look. The retconned cartoon found it before Snord, yet why wasn't that noted in the actual books? Oh yeah. It wasn't canon until much later. Funny how retcons seem to do that.
Is that what you called the truth? A piggy flying? As in the FC could not supply the base as stated?
Put up or shut up. Continuing to say someone else's story is poor, yet saying yours is so much better, yet only one person has ever seen it, is extremely poor. There is no proof of it, as only the writer says this.
As this is looking into changes in the story line, it is very possible the Falcons never find the base.
Sorry but it is deranged to believe that the AFFC would just abandon the base when one nuke would have denied the facility to anyone one else!
That is more proof you don't have a clue with things. This very statement was well used for the entire nuke fest you claimed should never have happened. The Falcons would destroy the base before they allowed the FC to defile it, by using it against the clans, especially them.
You have not understood any of the reasons before, why do we think you might now? Jumpships do NOT use uninhabited systems unless absolutely desperate. To set up routes behind enemy lines means doing just that. You don't comprehend this fact, so will constantly whine about it being the answer.
Back to the retcon of the cartoon? Sorry, but none of the books written at the time of the finding of Camelot Command had anything stating the base defenses were operational. In fact, the books that did cover it said just the opposite. Snord had to get a few turrets functioning.
Yet if Adam found it before and chased off the clans, it would have been noted when he lost it, and Snord found it. Incompetent Adam lost it... Imagine that.
This is also in the adventure pack made at the time, called Rhonda's Irregulars, where they state the poor nature of the asteroid. Nothing said about Adam then.
Why wasn't the self destruct button used when the SLDF left the IS in the first place? Because they didn't have one. Another retcon.
How many aerospace regiments are there in the FC? With your all or nothing posting of units in past threads, that is where your concepts of how the war goes shows thru.
Why don't you look up when the FC put naval grade weapons on the Overlord? That is when they started doing so.
The same reason why control centers on ships are still built in the open with glass windows around them. Because it was done in the old days, so therefore never changed.
300 plus regiments in the FC. less then 50 were taking out by the clans. So 250 plus regiments of mechs still exist without trying to rebuild those destroyed. Yeah. No such thing as reserve forces for a counter attack.
This is also assuming the FWL doesn't send any to assist in removing the clans from their borders.
Wow. The need to argue comes thru again. No one said the computer core survived, and you think that was after the FC was on the base? Maybe that was meant that the FC didn't download anything because the computer core was screwed up when they got there? Comprehension at zero to understand that?
If you would actually come back to reality, you may understand the game and what is being said. You suggest two worlds is the ONLY thing in the old TH worlds that may have had anything intact? That the over 600 worlds of the TH had nothing? That worlds the SL had secret bases on wouldn't have been included in their maps? They found more then a few bases that had been raided already. But yet you suggest only two were known.
And yet you also suggest the IS never sent out scouts to find any SLDF bases.
First off, how would the DC know the advanced electronics were removed? Second, any mechs would be welcomed, as they were lacking factories to produce enough to keep up with the FC. Trying to get some from the FWL/CC wouldn't work that well. They would be intercepted by the FC when found.
Melissa and Katherine are in one half with Victor in the other
Talk about poor writing and reality checks needed. Where was Victor during the war? He was running around the LC trying to stop the clans. So where did the false reality of Victor being in the FS portion come from? Not thinking again? Wishful thinking? Did you misplace where the clans were at compared to the realms?
Also, it needs to be pointed out that in the discussion here, the year of peace may not have happened, so there would not be a break in the fighting. So Victor would not have a reason to head back to the FS portion.
As the cartoon was retcon material, and only barely made partially canon, it was put in far later in the story then when the story was done. As not a single book I own had anything about the cartoon crap in it, all that excrement is retcon. So those of us that read the material when it first came out, didn't get the updated version when the money grab was being done. Had you actually read the books of that time, you would have known this.
The clans cut back on their plans. If the IS knew about the supply issues, they would have done more.
But again, you don't seem to understand things that the books spell out. Only the wolves kept up the pace, as they had the supplies.
You had this argument about why the developers didn't list all ships used for the 4th war and beyond, and you were told to show just one company's ships. You balked on that, as it would require far more time then it was worth to do so. Gee. Putting out a game like this, and not having every ship named isn't worth it. The story is supposed to be for some background information, not a full history of 1000 years of warfare.
And your lack of logic shows thru. What if is not the same as an alt. There is nothing here that will be done to try and get others to play anything in the thread.
And there is no rational debate coming from your posts. It is all my way is the only way. As with all posts you get involved with. So step away from this one. This is yet another attempt to keep this focused on a topic.
You suggest an alt for people, yet no one can read it. Where is the logic in this?
It shows a lie, as any sort of actual alt would prove that you have not followed your own statements. It shows in the responses here as they constantly change with new information. This is not Requiems alt argument thread.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 10:54 AM
45.51.181.83
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The cartoon was a complete mess that destroyed a lot of logic and facts in the game.
One such thing is when a city is inside a protective bubble, you do not fly a ship thru that bubble, and not kill people. Yet they did so more then once.
The SDS system was not allowed until the Jihad, yet the cartoon had it in the clan invasion, yet the FC did not institute such a system during the invasion. They would definitely have taken some copies of the drones with them, back to the FC government for research and manufacturing.
So the entire cartoon was for entertainment, not to further the actual storyline along. It should have stayed separate, but someone got the bright idea to incorporate it, to get those watching the cartoon involved in the game. And the rules and books of the time did NOT incorporate it.
This is a big flaw in the game. Probably one of the biggest garbage retcons of the game.
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Requiem
07/31/22 11:54 AM
1.147.82.21
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Anime – BattleTech
Problem – retcon – a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
Except for the end of the anime please describe all instances as to how was the anime retconned to demonstrate Camelot Command knowledge, the use of is security measures etc.?
Which are in and which are out?
Please also provide evidence as to how the FC were unable to garrison Camelot Command other than the one sentence that said they were unable to do so … as logic dictates that piggies are flying with regards to this statement.
Please note I do not have to prove anything to anyone when it comes to creating a new universe.
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The Falcons would destroy the base before they allowed the FC to defile it
What this suggests is that as the FC took possession of the facility first prior to the Falcons does this mean they, the Falcons, should have destroyed the station rather than taking ownership of the evacuated station as it was tainted by the FC’s ownership prior to them?
Sorry but you are misunderstanding the Clans desire to obtain anything Star League for their personal use, suggest re-reading as there is a lack in understanding.
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Jumpships do NOT use uninhabited systems unless absolutely desperate.
Can someone then explain …
The Exodus – from Terra initially and the SLDF
How explorer units were ever formed and used to find new planets
War of 3039
ComStar – Exploratory ships
The Clan invasion of the IS
Why anyone would venture into the Nebula to begin with when finding Camelot Command
Operation Serpent
Victor travelling to Huntress
How many exploration groups out and about 3050 onwards finding new planets
Sorry but this statement does no hold water, Jumpships will jump where ever programmed to go!
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none of the books written at the time of the finding of Camelot Command had anything stating the base defences were operational
Except for 1st Somerset Strikers (Sourcebook) – which is fully canonical …. And demonstrates he found it and used its defence weapons … what we see with the snord book is a lack of research …
The computer core never survived? …. How incompetent are the writers getting at this stage? Complete lack of logic!
So a SLDF Naval Facility doesn’t have maps for all hidden out posts – look piggy is flying again! Again this would be under encryption but it would be there!
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how would the DC know the advanced electronics were removed?
Just by turning on the mech and finding the same OS they are currently utilizing – then looking at descriptions of SLDF mechs held in the library and noticing a vast difference in output compared to wha was given.
So all of 10 seconds and anyone would realise this is not the same OS as the SLDF used.
Sorry but they are lemon mechs – no upgraded OS, no upgraded SLDF weapons packages … they were supplied duds compared to SLDF mechs.
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Where was Victor during the war? He was running around the LC trying to stop the clans.
Do I really have to spell this out? Logic dictates that …
If the clans are taking Terra and the surrounding systems where in all likelihood is Victor likely to be?
How about the Sarna March – those planets he was supposed to be duke to …
And where is the fall back position from there? The FS perhaps?
Did you misplace where the clans were when they are supposed to be capturing Terra?
Also if the fighting is getting this bad there is a reason to call Victor back to the FS portion – he is supposed to be next in line for the throne – and his father has seen his brother die in such a folly so wouldn’t he call him back to preserve the throne?
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As the cartoon was retcon material, and only barely made partially canon
Sorry this isn’t true – have a look at https://www.sarna.net/wiki/1st_Somerset_Strikers_(sourcebook)
“… the sourcebook is fully canonical.”
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If the IS knew about the supply issues
And we are expected to believe that none of the IS security units were able to recognise this?
Also gun footage should show an above average use of energy weapons compared to those with consumables … so again no one recognised this in the after battle report?
Sorry but one again this does not hold water!
My argument re ships – do you know which forum this is supposedly in or is this just make believe?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 05:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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There is no need to show anything about the FC not being able to supply Camelot Command. Those that created the game said they could not, so that is it. To demand more, means you need to look it up yourself. Oh wait. That means reading what is printed, and not put in your own views of what happened.
And yet, the continued shoving the ALT that no one has seen, down everyone's throat despite being told to leave it out of threads shows you are trying to prove something. This is NOT your alt thread promotion. Not sure why this is so hard to understand. Leave it to the area you posted it to. Otherwise, leave it out of the threads.
There is having something of the old SL, then there is something dangerous in the hands of those they consider beneath them. This is about pondering how things would be different if something other then the canon story happened. It is very possible that the Falcons would not have been the ones to respond.
Can you explain how exploration is done? An entity has some jumpships they are willing to risk making jumps into uninhabited systems. They know when and where this will happen. They have multiple ships that can be sent out to fix them if there is something that can be fixed. They do not have a schedule to bring supplies to someplace.
Going to a system that has hostile forces in and around the system makes this even more of a problem. So losing the ship is even more likely in that case. Even with the increased building of ships, the war raging suggests that risking ships to supply a base several jumps into enemy territory is not going to happen.
The crap cartoon is something put in much later. So all the books written when Snord found the station had NOTHING about some hero show suggesting it was found before then. The actual time the books were written, were before the cartoon came out. All of that says absolutely nothing about Adam. So your suggestion about long time player shows up as a false statement. You started after the cartoon came out. Otherwise, you would have known the cartoon was not canon at that time.
The cartoon demonstrates a money grab. It negates the already canon books to retcon things in that were against the rules of the time, and weren't change until years afterwards. Several rules books came out and still did not have those rules to deal with the retcon. Imagine that. It wasn't canon for a long while. And even now, it is not entirely canon.
Incompetent writers? Sounds like someone that refuses to release information they claim is to give others something other then canon story line. As the original suggestion says, it is possible the core did not survive. All the ways to change a story and some simple things seem to be left out when responding. Like a possible asteroid collision? The last people alive wiped the information from the system? Full destruction of the memory core and all back ups?
The fact the whole base should have been destroyed when the SLDF left is over looked as well.
What library? You believe that Comstar would not wipe any memory systems in the mechs before they gave them to the DC? And you suggest your vision is logical? It stated in the books they went out of their way to wipe the memory of the units, as it would be necessary as the battle computer would have targeting data for the upgraded weapons they no longer have. And Comstar was the only one that could open and work on the mechs, per their contract.
Logic dictates you don't know much about the game, if you think Victor would be in the FS portion when the clans take Terra. He would basically be trapped in the LC portion, as he would be fighting the clans the entire time. You suggest no one knows the characters of the game, yet this shows you don't know Victor. Unless dead, he would be fighting the clans. which would mean from the top of the IS to Terra. Only when they invaded Terra, would they be on the FS border. And Victor would do more damage hitting the flanks, preventing more supplies then sitting in the FS. So before you throw out not understanding characters, learn them yourself first.
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Karagin
07/31/22 05:49 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am for leaving the cartoon out of this; it was a disaster that should have been left as a one-off thing like the comic books were. All versions of the comics. Exception being SPIDER AND THE WOLF.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 07:53 PM
45.51.181.83
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So the retcon of Adam nullifies everything that happened in the clan invasion on forward until the Jihad.
There is no Nicoli Malthus listed in the Jade Falcon source book, and we know the rules didn't deal with SDS systems until the invasion of Terra by the mercs. I did not see anything about Enhanced Imagining in the BMR, and with the cartoon doing things like exploding Wolfhounds, and destroying domes over cities in a void, nothing can be trusted.
**** retcons strike again.
This also means the Strikers are not canon as they violate the rules both past and future. As the BS of not having clan tech shows up as false.
But for this thread, the cartoon will be ignored as crap.
And so it is clear, the Requiem ALT has no place in this thread. I am not going to have yet another thread shut down due to that bs.
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Requiem
07/31/22 08:24 PM
1.147.82.21
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There is no need to show anything about the FC not being able to supply Camelot Command.
Isn’t this supposed to be a “what if” forum that does not comply with canon on certain views?
So what if the FC was able to supply Camelot Command once they were informed of its location by Adam Steiner – they then had years before Snord arrived to find a fully functioning FC Naval base and not the empty derelict as purported …. Doesn’t the establishment of Camelot Command open the game to far more exiting game setings. I am under the belief it will, and wouldn’t its removal from the game detract from the game?
Thus if you had the opportunity to put it back in wouldn’t you do so?
You do not have to be a slave to canon – you can create your own history just as this “what if” Forum is suggesting – The Clans Take Terra in the First Invasion, what’s next?
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shoving the ALT that no one has seen, down everyone's throat
Whom is bringing this up? Sorry but it is not me – I have stated categorically that I will not be positing this as I have decided to keep it private … it is a part of me and I do not feel I have to share with the entire world at this stage.
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Can you explain how exploration is done?
You do realize that the chance of a miss jump is the same as if you are on commercial lanes within the IS? So the risk of loosing a jumpship exploring the unknown is the same as jumping cargo from one world to the next. So the risk is pointless to consider!
You should also realise that even with exploration there is a time table – if they are going o be out there for long periods of time resupply ships are dispatched to meet them at a certain point at a certain time.
As for going to a system that has hostile forces around the system – how are they ever going to know this your forces are how may light years distant from them in an unknown system that has been converted into a forward strike base from which you can strike at multiple enemy systems – this is a very logical military manoeuvrer – so it is most definitely going to happen – any resupply is also through unknown systems – hence no risk whatsoever unless by a freak accident your shp and theirs materialize at the same point at the same time and the probability of this is so astronomically low as it should never occur!
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The crap cartoon - the cartoon was not canon at that time.
The problem is TPTB went back and made a source book for the cartoon – THAT IS CANON! So imagine that the cartoon may not be entirely canon but the sourcebook is.
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Incompetent writers?
Since when has everyone been stripped of their freedoms to communicate – what they believe in?
If the core programming was stripped then how did they get life support back on line – how did they get the lights back on – how did Adam get he security system back on line?
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What library?
Any DCMS Military University Library – or don’t they even exist anymore?
Wouldn’t any miliary library have descriptions / video footage etc as to SLDF Mechs in battle and otherwise?
So you take one look and you will know that it is not SLDF – it is a more recent OS.
How hard is it to look at Word Office and know which is older to that of the newer program?
The agreement was Rasalhauge for SLDF Mechs – ComStar went back on the deal and only provided lemons … compared to true SLDF era Mechs.
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He would basically be trapped in the LC portion
Isn’t this forum about what happens if the Clans take Terra in the First Invasion?
That said, get a map and look at where Terra and the Sarna March are located – then look and see where your next move is if the Clans are taking Skye and DC worlds on the opposite side.
Your only real retreat is that into the FS – probably the Draconis March – as Victor’s father in all reality will be calling for him to return back to New Avalon at this sage.
Also at this stage Victor is a sub-par officer so in all likelihood he should be dead (if I had my wish) if he hasn’t killed off his entire unit to keep him alive.
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And Victor would do more damage hitting the flanks
Since when has TPTB allowed any unit to hit the flanks? They never even allowed the IS to strike at Clan resupply cargo fleets even when they should be within the invasion corridor … also never allowed to attack garrisons on captured worlds ….. so understanding characters is pretty much moot when certain tactics a normal military use are never allowed.
There is also one more point that must be raised as to how the Clans can acquire Terra.
Where did they get the extra troops to pull this off. As when you look at each Clan’s Invasion TO&E and you use a simple excel sheet it is obvious that no clan has the forces necessary to make it all the way and garrison every world with even a Trinary of Mechs – they do not have the forces to pull it off!
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I am for leaving the cartoon out of this **** retcons strike again
Even when TPB have made them Canon – as per the sourcebook for the cartoon?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 09:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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Love the placement of words to make it sound like something that wasn't said.
But for this thread, the cartoon will be ignored as crap.
**** retcons strike again.
This is your quoting those two sentences: I am for leaving the cartoon out of this **** retcons strike again
Falsifying what was said. This is what is expected anymore from your responses.
Guess reading isn't a strong point for you. There is no alt being formed here. It is seeing what might have been with a few changes. There is nothing here that will become a basis for a campaign. With the responses constantly showing you are not reading what is there, but putting in your own words, this isn't much of a surprise anymore.
Put up or shut up. Get out of this discussion as you are here only to start arguments. Make your own thread. This way, people can just ignore it like the others.
You continually miss facts about a lot of things.
A jumpship that has a malfunction with a jump drive that leaves them stranded in an uninhabited system does NOT suffer the same fate as one that has the same issue in a system that is used. It takes time to repair it, but they are not potentially lost forever. They can get supplies ordered and brought to them in an inhabited system. Uninhabited may well not have anyone go thru there for decades. So it is not the same thing. Anyone with any sort of logical mind would see this, and understand it.
Yeah, TPTB destroyed their credibility by removing all books written between the time of the actual invasion in real time, when they jumped the story into the jihad era with things that did not happen until the retcon. Things that did not follow their own rules. So yeah. Ignoring that crap for this discussion is a good thing.
Where did it say that the mech Comstar sold the DC were SL equipped models? They were getting old mechs that were refurbished, It did not say they were going to be advanced tech.
So supposition being shoved into that statement to try and argue a point.
It is supposed to be what if, but someone basically said there is no way Victor would be in the LC during the clans advance on Terra. Logic says he would be. Given Hanse died before this would happen, there is no way he would be demanding Victor return to the FS. And with all that territory between Terra and the western border of the LC, why would he have to run to the FS? Oh yeah. Logic says the LC is just that narrow sliver near Terra. The fact that Tharkad and even Defiance needs several jumps from Terra means nothing. Taking Terra means everything on all sides were gone according to what you make it sound like.
Also, the Draconis March is not a good place to retreat to, if things are that bad. It is on the DC border after all. So fighting would probably be happening there as well.
Your view of Victor is well known. Yet only you have been saying he was a horrible leader. So why does this seem like pushing a narrative of something no one wants to hear about anymore? Put up or shut up. There is no other thing to do, as the lie of showing a different view is not happening. There is no where to view this, and with the never will, the lie needs to end.
Now, once again, leave this thread. All input you have done has been insults with things that were said are not logical to most. Only one person seems to think they are.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 09:51 PM
45.51.181.83
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Now if we can avoid more crap, what time would Phelan make his escape in the first point of departure?
This is very important as more then a few things, like him taking a world without firing a shot would change the entire history.
Maybe he didn't get captured in the first place. Having Phelan tell his father about the new units, as well as the Archon and Prince, would change how they responded to the situation, verse the gun footage. This information would definitely make it to a mass of mercs, including the Dragoons. Just asking the main mercs would get the intel moving around. As the FRR dismissed most of the reports on their borders, I can see the information being ignored, or stored, possibly destroyed. Once the DC and FC got some strikes, this would help show them that it was not pirates. The information of ranges would show it was beyond SL tech.
Even having gone part way into the FRR before escaping works here as well. If he could get word to Tyra, she may not have done the suicide run.
The intel they got from Phelan during interrogation of him would not be available to the clans either.
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Karagin
07/31/22 11:05 PM
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That could be, and if he escapes with actual proof of the tech or something like a mech, crazy but it could happen. That coudl be a big boost to changing HOW the Fed-Com fights.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/31/22 11:44 PM
45.51.181.83
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I would think that removing the stupid concept of clantech being too expensive to make would probably be in any new path. To suggest that they would not use something a little more expensive to level the playing field is a bit much.
As more then a few mercs and even house units were salvaging clan equipment, the idea to build parts to maintain them isn't that far out. The costs of making SL tech was a jump from normal equipment, which means the jump to clan tech wouldn't be that far out.
The question is how hard would the clans look for him, once he escaped? Depending on the time line, not much, to kill on sight. But even then, would the normal warriors bother with a run away bondsman?
The escape itself could set off the clans against Comstar, even if Phelan didn't go to them, and just hid. The concept that Comstar was playing the clans for fools could well come up with this.
As for how close Phelan got with Ulric may well cause such a loss of face, that Ulric is removed from Wolf clan leadership, removing him from ever being the Ilkhan. Then again, it could expose Comstar and vault him to become Ilkhan even without Leo Showers death. The idea that Walterly was going to try to use them against the houses to bleed everyone dry could be exposed.
And what would happen when the mechs Comstar sold the DC are used in battle against the clans? No one in the IS was building them at the time. It could be used to accuse Comstar of arming the IS against the clans.
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Karagin
08/01/22 01:05 AM
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If the invasion pushes forward with things leading to the Wolves taking Terra in during the Invasion, I could see Combine going full crash course on copying all the Clan tech they can, as well some new stuff like the C3 systems and the MRMs. Same for whatever remains of the Fed-Com. They had NAIS, so it would be easier for them to get stuff rolling. The cost would go down over time so that by say 3055, which would be the likely date we would see the Wolves on Terra or close to getting there. Some of the front-line Fed-Com units would have prototype IS copies of Clantech.
Now, if we keep the Dragoons helping the Inner Sphere, which sure why not, then that could speed things up a bit more, but not by much.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/01/22 07:04 AM
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Guess comprehension is not a strong point, there is an alt being formed here. It is seeing that with a few changes there is a basis for a new campaign … maybe not by me or you, but there are others on the forum who may take this and run with it. Hus it most definitively becomes an Alt.
What is the first rule of going on an extended campaign? Always, always provide someone with your itinerary, schedule for when and where you will require resupply.
With any HR managers risk minimisation strategy any professional exploratory unit will establish an itinerary and schedule – thus if they do not arrive on time the second ship can work backwards in an attempt to find the lost sheep. They are only potentially lost, therefore, for a short period of time.
Anyone with any sort of logical mind would see this and understand it.
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Where did it say that the mech Comstar sold the DC were SL equipped models?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Operation_ROSEBUD
Upon further investigation it is found that … ComStar provided the Combine such equipment as the Thorn, Sentinel, Crab, Kintaro & the Crocket …. Some of which were still equipped with Star League era tech. (Courtesy of Precentor Dieron Sharilar Mori)
Thus it is clear that the Combine did receive refurbished technology mechs stripped of their Star League technological advantage (for the most part) – and replaced with compatible technology for their time.
So this “argued point” clearly demonstrates that I am correct – or are you going to “argue the point” once more?
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Given Hanse died before this would happen
As requested above … a timeline of events – how were we to know that you had spread out the invasion to include the death of Hanse?
To enable everyone to be on the same page can I request that you complete a timeline of events so that we are all on the same page?
So how was anyone to know this? As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more.
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the Draconis March is not a good place to retreat to, if things are that bad. It is on the DC border after all. So fighting would probably be happening there as well.
First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement.
And Second, you do realize the width and depth of the Draconis March thus making it an adequate route to retreat into
Or third, can you create a map for us so that we understand where you believe the war’s border is at this stage as without this we are all lost as to where you believe the Clans have progressed to ….
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Yet only you have been saying he was a horrible leader.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Victor_Steiner_Davion
Yes do please use his bio to prove what a wonderful leader he was within the early days of the war …
3049 - Upon graduation appointed to 12th Donegal Guards RCT – Rank Kommandant (Major) and provided command of the 2nd Battalion ….. Really?
Trel I – forced to retreat and only the intervention of another unit allowed him to escape – ordered off planet.
Sudeten – 10th Lyran Guards – provided a battalion again – and it was his plan to assault Twycross
However I would like to point out at this stage as he is attached to the company of Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek-Davion – there is no way in hell he would ever be allowed to see combat again – he would remain here for the duration of the war to keep heir apparent safe from combat.
Twycross – FC forces scattered to hell and only good luck within the gash with Kai Allard-Liao did they win – so better luck than good tactical acumen.
Outreach – goaded into fighting Hohiro by Sun-Tzu … demonstrating immaturity of a Major of the AFFC and the future heir of the FC.
Alyina – allowed himself to be ambushed and once again only at the seeming sacrifice of Kai was he allowed withdraw once again.
Down to just 13 operational mechs indicates just what an amazing leader Victor is at this stage ….
Rotated to Port Moseby for R&R
Hohiro Kurita trapped on Teniete – so at the urging of Omika he set out to rescue him … which required Hohiro to actually save Victor for them to escape ….
So yes Victor had a great war (heavy on the sarcasm) of being constantly saved by other people to keep him alive … and you expect me to believe this is a great officer?
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what time would Phelan make his escape
So let me get this straight 3049 Phelan escaped capture on the Rock in the Oberon Confederation – did he escape within Kell Hounds Drop Ships and JumpShips or was he forced to commander Clan Wolf ships?
As the former would suggest he made a run for the IS in 3049 while that latter is dependent upon when the next Clan ship arrives on the Rock – which could be awhile.
Without Phelan being within the Wolves the entre Clan Wolf invasion is turned on its head – as Ulric would also die on the bridge when rammed by an aerospace fighter – no Phelan to rescue him …
Thus who is the new il-Khan? And how does their policies affect the war?
Changing Phelan’s history has the potential to change everything within the Clan Invasion …
So when do you believe IS weapon parity with the Clans weapons should occur?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/22 11:50 AM
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Wow. Nothing in the wiki entry says the units were to be equipped with SL weapons.
Unknown to virtually anyone, Precentor Dieron Sharilar Mori, secretly a Combine intelligence agent, arranged for a number of these 'Mechs to retain their advanced equipment.
The only SL tech that had to be there would be Endosteel and Ferrous fiber armor. And even the armor is not necessary.
So where in this did it say they were supposed to be equipped with SL weapons?
So this “argued point” clearly demonstrates that I am correct. The original statement was dealing with the mech deal, and you claimed it was supposed to come with advanced weapons. The deal did not say they would have advanced weapons. So correct? Not even close.
What part of getting the basics of things did you not understand? There is no set time line for anything. If someone uses any of this for their game, great. Getting some ideas out there is the point. There is nothing set that they have to even use any of it, nor is it saying there is a complete set up.
As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more.
As your what assumes he is alive?
First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement. This is pure assumption on your part. The fact that the clans were at the point where the DC/FC come to Terra is the point. The clans would definitely have some units hitting worlds around Terra, to avoid them from attacking the clans as they hit Terra. And even afterwards, they would do so as well. Trying to get there would be a problem as well, since you have to go thru where he clans were at in order to get there. The Capellan and what would become the Chaos March would be the safest way, IF he did return to the FS portion. Consult the maps to confirm the location of said Marches.
So Victor was horrible, not the fact the clans were that good with great equipment. I see. Explains the faulty logic put forth in most things here. The writing to make the threat seem real doesn't factor in to this. The fact that the clans were able to use half the forces of the defenders and still win isn't the issue. The Warhawk could reasonably take down most assault mechs before they could get into firing range isn't the issue. The clans used that range and better damaging weapons to that effect. Some ambushes did happen, but not effective enough to do more then armor damage on the clan omnis. More logic failure figuring this out?
Again, assumptions causing issues. There has not been a set time for Phelan to escape. Suggestions are put up to see what makes the most likely scenario. So take your assumptions and leave the conversation. This is supposed to be putting up possibilities, yet we are getting the only way it can happen from one person.
As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more. This statement has already shown there is no discussion, just what ever you want. This is not about your take.
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Karagin
08/01/22 01:05 PM
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Why are we still dealing with Requiem's lack of understanding of the basics of the game setting and his constant wanting to put his ALT take as fact?
Even with SL tech, they aren't going to be close to having it on every mech, even by 3050, because there is NO rush or demand. Things are not pressing for the Combine to refit everything with SL tech. Now, come the invasion by the Clans, yes, that would be a BIG reason to start setting up new production lines for them, the Fed-Com, and others. But before that, no.
Again Requiem, either put your ALT up a new topic for all of us to read OR stop trying to shoehorn it into every topic. This one is not about your version. So if you want us to talk about your's then share it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/01/22 08:46 PM
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The only SL tech that had to be there would be Endosteel and Ferrous fiber armour.
You are speculating again!
So how about actually reading the page first …. As it included ….
“During this conflict, Waterly once again met with the Kanrei on Dieron. Waterly was infuriated that the Combine had retained twenty worlds from the old Rasalhague District, reorganizing them into the Alshain Military District. Theodore rebutted that the equipment House Kurita had received had been stripped of their advanced equipment”
So the deal inferred Star Leage era “advanced equipment” and when ComStar shafted the Combine on the deal the Combine Shafted ComStar by retaining 20 worlds that should have been provided to the FRR.
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As mine assumes he is alive – so you are just arguing semantics once more.
The point is that without the construction of a timeline of events no one knows what is in the others – thus when I make an assumption you are automatically my error for crime of not knowing what your assumptions are …. And not providing me with the benefit of the doubt.
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This is pure assumption on your part.
English comprehension and syntax - How can an enquiry upon the author become an assumption by the reader?
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since you have to go thru where the clans were at in order to get there.
As evidenced in utilizing hidden systems as staging bases during war – War of 3039 - this statement is inaccurate – you can bypass worlds to reach the main target – an extension of MacArthur’s Island hopping campaign WW2.
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what would become the Chaos March
The Sarna March, which adjoins the Draconis March …. And which Victor is Duke of … even though he has yet to establish a capitol for his new March …. Which should then become the capitol for the entire FC ….
Incompetence upon Incompetence ….
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So Victor was horrible, not the fact the clans were that good with great equipment.
Thus we are making excuses for Victor’s incompetence as a military commander?
Lets blame everything except the commander – Sorry, but it does not work that way, when you are in command you command that also means that you have to accept all the blame when things go pear shaped.
How many times has Victor engaged the Clans – thus he should know their heat sinks, increased speed, increased ranges etc – if he cannot factor these into his calculations when strategizing just proves the point … he is incompetent!
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There has not been a set time for Phelan to escape.
And I put up two likely assumptions and are criticized for it?
Also we are both assuming that he is alive – so how can this be arguing semantics?
How can arguing he escaped with the rest of the Hounds or captured a clan ship be just about my take?
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even by 3050, because there is NO rush or demand.
You do not know when Hanse, the fox, will start a new war.
Even Takashi stated that you have fight at your best with hanse or he will rip your throat out.
Thus gaining and maintaining a technological advantage may be the only way to combat the FC’s numerical superiority – so even by 3050, because there is NO rush or demand – is quite a ludicrous statement.
The FC’s numerical superiority IS THE pressing reason for the Combine to refit everything with SL tech asap!
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stop trying to shoehorn it into every topic.
Question – I have stated many times that my new Alt. does not have any BattleTech people or Houses or Situations – so can you explain how I am shoehorning into every topic when what we are discussing has no basis whatsoever on my – and let me repeat this mine and mine alone – new Alt.
So I’m not talking about my Alt therefore I do not have to share it!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/01/22 10:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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So the written deal did not meet was was inferred? Wow! Is that why they say get it in writing. And with that, I did not see the DC back out of the deal.
So no. The deal did not include SL weapon systems. The statement that it had been part of the deal is false.
It does suggest Hanse dies when he did in canon. And since you don't seem to comprehend, this thread is not a fully made what if. It is just starting a discussion on things. There is NO statement it was even close to finished, unlike someone else's concept. The statement in yours is very much trying to shove your alt into here. Get a clue. We do not want anything to do with your alt, so take it and leave the conversation. You have been told this more then a few times.
Your shoving the false statement in to try and make yet another false statement sound truthful.
First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement.
English comprehension and syntax - How can an enquiry upon the author become an assumption by the reader?
No where did it say the DC and FS were at war, yet you assumed it was. Just because Victor fighting the clans in the LC, you assumed, falsely, that he HAD to jump to the Draconis March when the clans reached Terra. This is yet another attempt to shove your alt views into this conversation.
Pure logic with maps. The clans were coming down from the north side of the IS. Given Victor was on the west side of the map the entire time, why would he jump to the east side at this point? Other then trying to shove Katherine into ruling the LC?
The clans reaching Terra would mean fighting around Terra would be happening, so again, why would he be there? Morgan Hasek, and if, that is a big IF, Hanse was alive, they are more then capable of dealing with the FS side.
As Victor is ruler of the LC as well as the FS, he would be duty bound to be where the thickest fighting is at.
So again, your logic is faulty to the core.
And the syntax was not an inquiry, but a statement of your assumption.
Who said anything about hidden bases? Yet another shoving an unwanted alt concept into something that has NOTHING TO DO with it. Take it and get out.
Again, your inability to understand things shows thru. We did NOT say this was a completed thought. It was to bounce around some ideas on what might have happened. Yet you seem to think this is the final print for something that it is NOT going to become.
how were we to know that you had spread out the invasion to include the death of Hanse?
By actually comprehending this is simply a start of getting things together.
As mine assumes he is alive
Wow. It even says assumes. What does that make it? An assumption based on what? It was suggested before hand that Hanses death does occur. Yet you assume to put in your view then suggest it is not wrong? Again, I will say this. LEAVE THE CONVERSATION.
Wow. Instead of assuming things, why not wait until facts are put in? Oh yeah. Because then you can't start arguments to get the thread shut down. Or shove unwanted facts from the supposedly done thing that no one will ever see.
The crap that continues to show up is directly from another made up comparison of the game. It is the same crap that was shoved down our throats time and time again.
A new twist on an old concept doesn't mean it is new. The same points come up again and again with the same bias.
LEAVE THE CONVERSATION!
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Requiem
08/02/22 12:14 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
So the written deal did not meet was inferred?
DC believed it did! This is why they kept 20 worlds.
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It does suggest Hanse dies when he did in canon.
Yes this is true, HOWEVER, as no time line was ever supplied we the readers did know if the Clans had taken Terra pre, post or during Hanse’s heat attack.
Thus the belligerence as to the fact is unwarranted as no statement was made as to the timeline – no know can infer what was never provided.
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Nowhere did it say the DC and FS were at war, yet you assumed it was.
Quote from my reply dated 08/01/22 07:04AM
The statement I provided was, “First, are you assuming that the FS and the DC are at war with each other with this statement.”
So how do you go from “are you (ghostrider) assuming … with this statement” to get (me, Requiem) assumed it? …. English comprehension and syntax.
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you assumed, falsely, that he HAD to jump to the Draconis March when the clans reached Terra.
I assumed that the Clans had taken Terra and were in the process of taking the surrounding systems for each clans individual fiefdoms. I then assumed that it would be in Victor’s best interest at this stage to fall back to the most secure position he could find – the Draconis March – there he could receive the best R&R facilities – he will also find the best reinforcements available if he desired to counterattack.
All sound military decisions.
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This is yet another attempt to shove your alt views into this conversation.
So does this mean that when ANYONE who attempts to make an opinion they are also shoving their views into the conversation or is this just me?
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Pure logic with maps. The clans were coming down from the north side of the IS. Given Victor was on the west side of the map the entire time, why would he jump to the east side at this point? Other then trying to shove Katherine into ruling the LC?
Yes it is Pure Logic with the Maps.
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/0/09/Fs-3039.png?timestamp=20100529224556
https://cfw.sarna.net/wiki/images/6/6e/Lc-3040.png?timestamp=20100529215749
Assumption: Hanse is still alive!
Question: What is the primary FC objective if the Clans have taken Terra and are now taking surrounding systems for their personal fiefdom?
Answer: It is quite clear that their primary objective is to keep the corridor between the Lyran Half and the Suns Half of the FC Open.
To this end I postulated that the FC would finally have a come to god moment and realize that Kesselring (Italian campaign WW2) was correct – prepared defensive lines are required!
Thus, you have to get in front of the Clan Advance – This would put Victor’s forces (in all probability) somewhere along the line from Pollux to Epsilon Indi with Terra Firma probably as the regional military command at this stage.
However the largest military power (that can be moved – as DC / FC have come to an agreement by this stage – however the CC would still be sitting on their hands and as such they are a threat to the FC) in this region still remains within the Draconis Combine. Thus a flanking attack from the direction of Ozawa (area) is likely – Thus Victor would move to link up with these forces to undertake a combined counter attack.
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As Victor is ruler of the LC as well as the FS, he would be duty bound to be where the thickest fighting is at.
Assumption: Hanse has died and Melissa is now Archon / Regent of the Federated Suns – as Victor still wants to play soldier and as such he has refused to take the throne.
At this stage Victor should be assigned to the company of Marshal of the Armies Morgan Hasek-Davion – as he is now supposed to take the throne of the FC as both Archon and First Prince – allowing him to remain on the battlefield is the height of stupidity!
Sorry, but my logic is dead on!
Also striking from hidden bases located on hidden worlds was proven effective during the War of 3039 so saying they have no concept in this war is lacking.
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It was suggested before hand that Hanses death does occur. Yet you assume to put in your view then suggest it is not wrong?
07/30/22 11.01AM – “since Melissa and Hanse were alive”
07/30/22 10:10PM – “ Hanse and Melissa being alive means Katherine is not in any sort of position to even try and take the FC.”
It is only the next day are we informed that Hanse is dead
07/31/22 09:44PM – “Given Hanse died before this would happen, ….”
So how am I, Requiem, to infer Hanse is assumed Dead, by Ghostrider, for the purpose of this forum on 07/30/22 when it was expressly stated that he was alive?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 12:36 AM
45.51.181.83
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There is no time line as this is NOT an alt. What part of this do you not understand? There is NO story here. As stated near the beginning, finding out when the point of departure was the question. How do you get that anything is already done? You assume everything, then complain when you got called out.
As this is not an alt, there is nothing decided on if the DC/FC called a truce or in a hot war. Not decided. How difficult is this to understand? The logic suggest only trying to get arguments going is the reason for such a blatant calling of anything.
I then assumed that it would be in Victor’s best interest at this stage to fall back to the most secure position he could find – the Draconis March – there he could receive the best R&R facilities – he will also find the best reinforcements available if he desired to counterattack.
All sound military decisions.
The most secured position he could find would be the Crusius March, not the Draconis March. The Capellan March is safer then the Draconis March. And there would be no reason to head into the FS at all, when the LC needed a real military leader, not someone like Nondi. But again, your pushing the alt with the 'perfect' logic that doesn't exist.
There is no opinion in your responses, but a direct only way it can go due to the perfect logic you came up with in your own views.
As there is nothing set in stone about what happens after the clans first contact, you are putting in your own visions and views into something that was not even set in stone. Then again, this is NOT your set up. This is why you continue to shove crap in our faces with YOUR view of what is going to happen. Something you don't seem to understand at all. This is not your vision, nor is it anywhere started to be set up. NOW LEAVE THE THREAD.
As for a new alt, the post before last was the first I seen anything said about it. I guess the original was so full of logic holes, it had to be abandoned. But I do suspect that only the names have been changed, and the same story was done.
Edited by ghostrider (08/02/22 12:42 AM)
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Karagin
08/02/22 12:59 AM
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One thing I can see that could be happening if Phelan were to escape from the Clans is a change in how they treat bondsmen. Now here is a plot twist, what if Ulric allows Phelan to escape and does so in a manner that he makes sure that Phelan gets specific schematics and such to take with him? That would be an exciting twist. This lends the question of would the information be fully trusted by Morgan. Would Morgan first give the Dragoons a copy or both the Dragoons and the Fed-Com?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/02/22 06:09 AM
1.147.88.67
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Quote:
There is not timeline, as this is NOT an alt.
Then any assumption can be made and included.
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The most secured position … the Crusius March
Really?
A this point in time a fair assumption would be that the Draconis Combine has signed a secret non-aggression pact with the Federated Commonwealth – as they are both engaged in a life-or-death struggle with the Clans, an unknown force from beyond the Periphery.
In comparison the Combine is run by a despot psychopath who does not care about the Clans as the belief is they are not a threat, who in all likelihood would care more about retrieving lost territory than survival from an unknown threat.
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‘perfect’ logic that doesn’t exist
Really?
Then what is your assumption?
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There is no opinion in your responses, but a direct only way it can go due to the perfect logic you came up with in your own views.
Isn’t this a projection of your opinion of me?
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As there is nothing set in stone about what happens after the clans first contact.
If this is correct then I could even say that due to Turtle Bay the Draconis Combine has decided to wage a nuclear war against the Clans. And as a consequence the Federated Commonwealth has followed suit.
And the attack upon Terra is the last survivors of all the Clans Invasion Fleets attempting a last ditch attempt at conquering Terra for the Home Clans … to light the beacon of a second Clan Invasion.
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with YOUR view of what is going to happen
So it is acceptable for everyone else to have a view, just not me.
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Phelan
If Ulric betrays the Clans – could this be the wardens undertaking their first step to betray the Crusaders in a grand plan attempt to purge the Clans of its more ‘evil vices’. i.e. Operation Valkyrie (Clan Style)
As for Morgan, he would more likely provide the information to Melissa – his best friend’s daughter.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/02/22 11:03 AM
70.118.172.64
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Quote:
I
And what would happen when the mechs Comstar sold the DC are used in battle against the clans? No one in the IS was building them at the time. It could be used to accuse Comstar of arming the IS against the clans.
This would most like get a laugh from the Clans or a bit of notice and then ignored since the tech would be considered second-line compared to the front-line stuff they are using. Now IF and as said in one of the posts above, the Combine has armed more units, then Jaguars might use it as to why they haven't gotten as far in their corridor as the other Clans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 11:47 AM
45.51.181.83
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A thought came up when I got up this morning.
What if Phelan was brainwashed during his interrogation, and became a spy for the clans? That would be one interesting twist.
Well looking at the Comstar mechs, it came to me that most mechs used in the IS are downgraded SL mechs, so that was a mistake on my part.
Now if the clans wanted to really show they were superior gunners, they would take their old stockpiles they upgraded with the lesser critical systems and weight, and fight the IS with those ones instead of the omnis.
I do like the idea that maybe Ulric decided to help the IS show the crusaders their invasion was foolish. That might be a good start for a what if having the clans stopped and started being rolled back so the Tukkuyid fight didn't happen. Doesn't meant it couldn't be used here. The idea would fit well with the advanced depots he was setting up for the blitz he was performing. Let Phelan know the location of one such depot, so some examples with the blueprints were in one location. Maybe a fully operational Timberworld or other mechs could be in there as well as supplies. Ulric could write it off as bad luck for the clan, as the IS found it, diverting the blame from Phelan and himself.
It might fit to have some intel on one of the other clans supply bases, or even a route, and have that information go with Phelan.
So to confirm, we are sticking with the same 4 clans to start with, in their same location corridors?
As we are talking about them taking Terra, I would think a few things would have to happen, such as more starting, or activating some sooner.
I could see Leo trying to punish some warden clans by having them come in and deal with the flanks. First making them fight the Jaguars for a few worlds, then assigning them to the periphery areas of the DC and FC. Nothing that gets them anything but losses and insults them with periphery worlds, and no real chance of being near Terra.
Which ones and when would have to be worked out if this is done.
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Karagin
08/02/22 12:30 PM
70.118.172.64
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Four Clans is fine; starting the others a bit sooner could happen, maybe with the Twycross/Wolcott mess being the key. Yeah, the Periphery area would be an ideal spot for them to start in then they could sweep in and cause more issues for the DC and FC as well, possibly the FWL or the FS part of the FC.
Some of the mechs the Combine got were intact and had the SL tech, so they would have those as well as what the Helm MC gave them. They would not have the stuff in mass quainties, again no need for it. Not until well after their run ins with the Clans,.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 04:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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Not suggesting an increase in units that the Core gave data for. I was saying a majority of the units used in the IS were supposedly SL mechs, that were downgraded due to losing tech to make them SL models. There were new mechs made, that isn't an issue. The Hatchtman, Wolfhound, Dragon and a few others came after the fall of the SL, but things like the Atlas, Locust, Phoenix Hawk and others were SL models.
One possible situation that could cause an increase is the bombing of Turtle Bay. The dishonorable act, may well have caused the home clans to force a new decision for who is to continue the attacks. Maybe even limit the Jaguars, and remove Leo from Ilkhan.
Wow. Just thought of what that would mean to the entire invasion. The Jaguars being removed from going further, as well as losing the top command spot. That could well cause a major uproar in the entire clan society.
Using this thought, it could also be applied to the Jade Falcons, as they refused to issue the batchall for worlds. This could very well lead to why the Wolves might be the ones to take Terra. The Ghost Bears did nothing that would be considered dishonorable, but the resistance in the FRR worlds they took might cause them to have to put to many units into garrison/retaking revolting worlds. With the Jaguars sidelined, they might strike into the Bears to vent their anger.
Just some thoughts...
I agree that the houses would not be on a war production run at the time. The FC knows they would have the forces to hit the DC again, and they would have more upgraded units, provided Comstar doesn't save them again. If they did, the other houses would definitely know Comstar was not neutral anymore. All the houses would have a good idea of what the DC could make, and a dozen or more regiments of mechs with upgraded tech would show up like a sore thumb. Using the ghost regiments did hide the 3039 war increase. I don't think many outside the DC even knew they existed until the war.
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Karagin
08/02/22 04:16 PM
70.118.172.64
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I thought you were talking about mechs like the Champion, Thorn, and others from the TRO2750.
The Turtle Bay thing that could be seen as an increase in frustration by the Jaguars. Since the Combine worlds weren't just rolling over and giving up as the Clans were used to. Say this causes the Bears to call for a vote of censor or trial against the Jaguars for using the orbital bombardment as they did since the target was still civilian in nature. That could cause rifts to appear in the Clans, which the IS could exploit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 05:36 PM
45.51.181.83
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I was thinking of causing the clans to send more in, as this is supposed to be about them taking Terra, but this could also be used to make a thread about the clans being kicked out of the IS. That was part of several ideas for other threads.
This censor or removal of the Jaguars could very well lead to more clans being sent in, or even a trial of annihilation against them, though a trial is more severe then it should be. Annihilation probably wouldn't happen if they hit a home world with it, so an IS world is far less likely to cause that much.
As the clans were ignoring a lot of the intel they were getting, some units would surprise them, such as the ones in 2750. More then a few would have been reported not made during the last Dragoon intel run, Then again, the clans could get upset that the IS found yet another coveted SL cache and violated it by taking the machines in there. So it could be used to help them get to Terra.
I would think there would need to be more supplies brought in with the clans, as their running out should not happen with the taking of Terra concept. That is unless the IS started making clantech and it falling into the hands of the clans due to planetary wins, or capturing supplies headed for front line unit, ie got over run, and the supply transports show up at that moment.
And as much as the clanners would be upset, i think they would be more likely to use SL tech to replace their destroyed clantech in their mechs to keep them in the fight. More trials of possession would be fought as the supply of mechs dwindled. This is counter to taking Terra. It might get bad enough that the clans would start using IS vehicles to soften up defenses.
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Requiem
08/02/22 07:44 PM
1.147.88.67
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And what would happen when the mechs ComStar sold to the DC are used in battle against the Clans?
As the clans also engage in commerce between the Clans – including Mechs – wouldn’t this be seen as a normal commerce transaction?
Also Ghost Regiments were utilized within the invasion.
6th Ghost – Nov 3051 Marshdale – Vs. Clan Smoke Jaguar – 3rd Jaguar Cavaliers
2nd Ghost – Feb 3052 Caripare – Vs. Clan Nova Cat – 1st Nova Cat Guards
Also blaming enemy equipment for lack of progress is not an excuse the other Clans would accept – the Jaguars would be derived and thought of as being week just for attempting to suggest the excuse.
Only mass victory in battle is seen as the goal – all else is dross – remember they do see themselves as Mongol warriors.
Quote:
Phelan – Brainwashed
When did the clans believe that using such a tactic is honourable? Would they have used a tactic in the past on other Clan Warriors or is this just used on freeborn within the Kerensky Cluster Worlds?
Quote:
Utilizing second line mechs in the invasion
Taking a war steed away from a warrior and providing them with a draft horse will have a detrimental effect upon all warriors – they will see this as an afront o their honour.
So the khan who proposes this will not be alive long enough to regret their decision.
If parity within the game is your objective then IS should be allowed to reverse engineer clan weapons sooner than later – they should also be manufacturing more IS omni mechs and replacing old designs with these modern designs asap ….
i.e. they should actually be acting like a normal military for once – incorporating new R&D designs asap rather than the ridiculous story provided to maintain Clan military technology superiority. That can only be considered to be unbelievably naïve.
Quote:
I do like the idea that maybe Ulric decided to help the IS show the crusaders their invasion was foolish.
Thank you,
How far is this going to go?
Clan civil war within the IS invasion corridors?
How will the IS react to such a civil war – will they even be allowed to interfere in such a war? Would Ulric request they do not interfere?
Quote:
As we are talking about them taking Terra
Increased bids by all Clans would be a given
Once within the IS – increased number of worlds attacked per wave to reduce time of IS forces counter-attacking.
Clans would actually need to possess a military intelligence division – no longer would they rely upon ComStar.
They would need an increase output in the number of graduates from their sibkos.
They would need o re-allocate many of their trueborn workets etc. to worlds closer to the IS in order to manufacture everything the warriors and their equipment required for the Invasion – i.e establish a clan colony close to the IS. This is turn will reduce the time ir resupply.
What this will also mean is that the IS never find Huntress – Operation Serpent will end up on these worlds – battle to capture Clan Colony Worlds will be used as he pretext for slowing down the Clans whist they on Terra – attacking their rear supply bases whist the bulk of their military are close to Terra (Plot Twist?).
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they could sweep in and cause more issues for the DC and FC as well, possibly the FWL or the FS part of the FC.
Tyranny of distance intensified – would play marry hell with their resupply units if they attempted to open a second / third front – would need more Home Clans to even attempt this.
Quote:
Some of the mechs the Combine got were intact and had the SL tech, so they would have those as well as what the Helm MC gave them. They would not have the stuff in mass quantises, again no need for it. Not until well after their run in with the Clans.
Sorry but I disagree – as stated above the DCMS need advanced tech asap to stave off the next invasion by the AFFC. Thus, by a happy coincidence, the DCMS are in a better position to stave off he Clans once their invasion commences.
Quote:
There were new mechs made
The omni design is nothing new to military forces – just look at the number of multi-purpose vehicles created – all military throughout history is attempting to get the most for their available funds.
So why not allow the IS to begin their own omni-mech program before the invasion – such as an omni Crusader / Archer model?
Quote:
Turtle Bay … may well have caused the home clans to force a new decision for who is to continue the attacks. Maybe even limit the Jaguars, and remove Leo from Ilkhan.
Has a clan used this tactic on rioting freeborn in he past? If they have then politically the home clans do not have a leg to stand on as the Jaguars are using this on barbarian freeborn.
To get this reaction this must be the first time the clans have ever used such a tactic … and even then Leo will challenge the decision in the circle of equals … so depending on how he vote goes will determine outcome.
i.e. the same as when Aiden Pride announced he was not freeborn but true born …
As for the wider Clan Society – all should halt their invasions until this has been rectified.
As for the Falcon’s not issuing Batchall for worlds – this is a separate matter and would require a second censure motion ….
Quote:
other houses would definitely know Comstar was not neutral anymore.
All houses should have known this way earlier – given the shadow wars, ComStar manufacturing a censure of the FS for attacking one of their HPGs in he 4th Succession War, letting he entire IS know the existence of the ComGuards, letting the DC construct Ghost Units made up primarily of lost SLDF mechs …. Etc.
It’s a given that all houses now recognise ComStar as a “great house” whose aim is also to conquer the IS and establish a Blakean Theocracy …. The real issue is once you realise this you will also need to consider that ComStar still possess all the knowledge of the former Star League era – and they are currently hiding it.
Thus the use of long term sleeper agents into ComStar to find out!
Quote:
i think they would be more likely to use SL tech to replace their destroyed clantech in their mechs to keep them in the fight.
Problem – that would be like using old WW2 tank parts in an attempt to fix a modern tank – not compatible.
And even if they do fit who would even consider it as the old weaponry does not come equipped with modern targeting systems to assist with gunnery etc.
Also all Trueborn Clan warriors would be horrified at the thought that their Mech had been bastardized with IS sub-tech.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/02/22 09:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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So with the possible inclusion of some of the other clans, if Turtle Bay creates the demand for them, what clans do you think would be activated? The Vipers and the Cats? Or would they activate some of the other clans? The end run in the periphery part to strike at the houses from different directions would really cause a lot of problems for the IS.
I would think those clans would be upset at first, but then they would believe they had a chance to become the Ilclan with a less defended route. Anyone that was chosen to come thru the Exodus Road the SLDF used to leave might think it an honor to do so.
I just realized the canon story line DID have Ulric help the IS to prove to the crusaders, the invasion was a bad idea. The Tukkiyud fight was such a plan. The idea that any organization could stop them would have dealt the blow that it did indeed do in the canon story. But this is a bit off from the clans taking Terra, so might be touched in another thread.
Another possible push for more clans would be the ones that didn't get to be involved, could well be insulting those that did, for they had not pushed as far, and as fast as those left out would wait for. I can see trials happening to entice the invading clans to pick up the pace, or move aside and let real warriors in. As I don't see much of any units of the main invaders being left in the clan home worlds, I don't see more of the initial 4 bringing in their own forces. Which is kind of odd. The Wolves brought only two warships, yet the information suggests they had plenty more. So how would that play out? More galaxies that weren't named in the books? Or did they increase their size by making new ones before they left?
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