WOB Jihad....Spoilers....

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MadWolf
08/30/02 03:16 AM
134.53.144.33

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Hear Hear !!

I Love the Clan Part of the Story line. The Unbalance Brings Reality. If every one had equal power in the IS Then what would happen?? PEACE. Its the Whole Cold War thing. When america and the Soviet Union had the cold war Nobody really got in each others faces, In the Grand Scale of things. Shure there were people killed and the whole KGB spy stuffs. But No Soilders of the American Units or the Soviet Units Ever crossed Fire. ( Well as far as information released up to this date suggest anyway ) How is WAR started and kept going?

One of two ways :
1 Some one is right and no-one elses is Period. acronym "We Are Right" all religous wars fall in this catagory.
2 The Have-nots want to have and the Haves wish not to share, So the Have-nots Get really pissed and decide to pick a fight with the Haves

Clans Have-not Terra, the IS Have-not the Technology, Both want somthing from the other with out giving up what they Have.

the F____G WoBbies wasteing Outreach Is the 1st scenero. " We Are Right " and since the Crusades showed to be the biggest waste of life in a long time i think the WoBbies will prove to be a waste of a few good years between CBT and that MWDA stuff.....
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 06:22 AM
137.132.3.7

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Yeah, I agree with you that it ws a nice way to shake up the IS. But the battles would not be fun if all of them ended like the Black Watch's last stand on Terra during the Amaris Coup.(You win the scenario, but the wobblie commander gets upset and nukes the area.)

And how exactly was Devlin Stone able to win against nukes and warships and bio-weapons and all sort of nasty stuff? Is he god?

So I'm not really angry with the way the Wobblies are behaving, because that is what you would expect of religious fanatics(applies to present day too), but I am REALLY angry at how they made the Wobblies to be chumps once Devlin Stone appears.

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 06:26 AM
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So how does one go about winning battles against a nuke-capable and nuke-WILLING force, with a large warship fleet(courtesy of the FWLM), without resorting to the same?

Next to impossible, I think.

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 06:32 AM
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Uhm, you can add one more.

Devlin Stone's campaign against the Wobblies, where he managed to beat back a nuke-equipped faction.

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 06:36 AM
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That brings us to one other sticking point qbout the jihad. Why didn't anybody, not even Wolfnet, connect all the dots? And even Sunny boy, bright as he is, should have figured that one out(they even tried to kill him once, doesn't that make him more than a bit wary?!)

Did all the intel agencies suddenly had a brain fart?

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 06:44 AM
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Uhm, the Wobblies ARE religious fanatics.

And we now all know that fanatics have no use for the rules of warfare.

You know, we both hate the idea of the RotS, but the difference between us is which particular parts of the road to the Dark Age we hate.

I could grudgingly swallow the idea of nuke-using Wobblies(religious fanatics) that expanded tremendously in the past few game years and then opening up a can of whoop-ass on the Inner Sphere, but you can't.

But what I can't accept is how the good guys won in the end, because that should not be possible, unless by writer fiat.

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 06:53 AM
137.132.3.7

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It turns out that the various factions offered(Spirit Cats, Swordsworn, etc) are not House units per se, but rather factions formed WITHIN the RotS after the communications breakdown, seeking to re-establish themselves with their patron factions/houses or their own gain.

Thus, the DCMS is still around, probably, but the Dragon's Fury are their reps within the RotS. Likewise for the Swordsworn, Steel Wolves, and Spirit Cats.

For those who might be a bit miffed at me, no, I did not buy MW: DA. I got the info off a friend who did.
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
Karagin
08/30/02 08:19 AM
63.173.170.111

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Actually we are on the same road...I don't like how the universe has a set of bad guys and good guys...I liked the gray that was around prior to the Clans showing up...no one was good and no one was bad, everyone was out to better their faction and themselves personally...daggers happen to be landing in everyone's back...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
08/30/02 08:27 AM
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No they didn't have a brain fart...but the offical word would be that the FC's Intell folk were busy fighting a civil war and the DC's Intel folk were busy doing the let's find out who the Black Dragons are, who is doing what in the FC civil war and what are those Bears doing?

Then SAFE is more or less working with WoB, so I guess they are rules out of the Intel part...Sunny boy's spies may have caught it, but given the fighting in the St. Ives Compact and the FC civil war...and then Wolfnet I doubt missed it, they just filed it away tell they could do something about it...ROM (CS) was kind of like the DC in this they had the Clans, FC, WoB and their own stuff going on...so if they caught they were a little pressed to do anything about...

So the blame is all on Victor and Katherine and in away on Hanse's shoulders as well...for all of this.

As to why NONE of the Intell groups tried to do anything about it or even pass it up the chain etc...is beyond me...I am sure the sourcebook that covers this (that is if WK doesn't post everything and then some) will fill us in on why all of the intell agenices in the IS missed this, I am sure those cloaking devices WoB found on Terra, you know the Holy Grail of tech and reasources came in handy as did all of those pouches of plenty and endless holding...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
08/30/02 08:29 AM
63.173.170.111

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They use the Schwartz and then let Auggie Ben Doggie and Ham Salad deal with it?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Greyslayer
08/30/02 08:44 AM
216.14.192.226

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Connecting dots:

- Sunny killed their leader ... no repurcusions. In fact they 'help' him rebuild his military assets (with what money I have no idea).

- Thomas Marik would spit the dummy bigtime if WOB tried using a single nuke. They would have to neutralise him which would cause a faction-split considering alot considered him primus-in-exile.

- Up until 3063 they were still bombing each other's faction leaders within WOB. Must've been pretty stable eh?

Off the top of my head these dots connect to stop this silly plotline taking place.

Greyslayer

realworldviews
08/30/02 08:54 AM
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mmmmmmmmmmmmm....
Bags of holding and pouches of pleanty.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
ChalengerII
08/30/02 10:47 AM
62.254.0.4

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wow 85 replies in under a day
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 11:02 AM
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If that's the case, the present Dark Age storyline might be what you want.

After all, from what I see so far from DA, nobody's a truly bad guy.

I don't mind bad guys, if they're realistic enough, and their motivations good enough.

But having shades of grey IS a nice facet of the BT universe.

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
Karagin
08/30/02 11:12 AM
63.173.170.103

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From what I have seen of the MWDA setting not much of it appeals to me...

The idea to me is while there are mostly grey areas...you are going to run across some folks who are just evil...kind of like what we have here with this current story line dealing with the WoB and their willingness to play god.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
novakitty
08/30/02 12:39 PM
209.242.100.230

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"Which brings to mind another detail where is WOB getting all their nukes?"

Whether you realize it or not, nuclear weapons are extremely simple, get too much of a certain radioactive isotope pushed together with a reasonable amount of force, and boom. By "disposing of" the waste from semi-backwater worlds who only have fission reactors, a group could manage to get a lot radioactive stuff. A favorite is a form of plutonium that is a byproduct of fission reactors currently in use. This is not the only radioactive material that can be used, but the needed size of a bomb is small and the half-life keeps it volatile for a while.

H-bombs are a fusion based follow-up to a bomb of the above stlye. I do not immediately remember the mechanics of such a weapon, but the force of the explosion is almost open-ended. With a suficient primer-nuke, an h-bomb could be made to pierce some armor on a target warship, blow up (melting and shrapneling the ship) and cause some varying level of damage to anything hit by the swift-moving debris. The fast moving wave of plasma from the bomb casing would also do some damage, but would decrease significantly at distance. Also, you could expect an effect similar to a HPG "stunning" all electronics near the explosion.
meow
The_Nice_Guy
08/30/02 01:07 PM
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Any faction with the ability to produce FUSION reactors certainly won't have problems producing FUSION bombs.

Maybe they won't be radioactive, but they still pack a real punch.

The Angry Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
novakitty
08/30/02 01:12 PM
209.242.100.230

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Oh, they will be radioactive, they will be...

Not that the radiation will be of any consequence in space* confrontations, but it messes up the soil for a while on planets.

*This is due to the massive abounts of radiation generated by almost every star in existence.
meow
NathanKell
08/30/02 01:22 PM
24.44.238.62

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Folks, THERE ARE BT STATS FOR A NUKE.

The Alamo missile, from Battlespace. Does 1,000 standard pts of damage and "the warship it hits is destroyed, even if it could normally survive the damage".
Under BS orbital bombardment rules, the nuke destroys all units and buildings with a 25? hex radius, and all infantry within a 50-hex radius.
My best guess is that it's a 100KT tac nuke.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
08/30/02 01:30 PM
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Could you (you do have the HMAero beta right?) show us a blatantly dishonorable nukeboat as a conversion of something the WoB has shown a capability to produce to show how easily this weapon could be misused to remove fleets and destroy worlds?

I think this might answer one of the arguments and find both sides in partial error.
meow
NathanKell
08/30/02 01:54 PM
24.44.238.62

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Nope, I'm not of that exalted number.

But, it doesn't matter: the Alamo is a fighter-carried missile. Hopefully, I've already typed up the rules...
But if not: A single Alamo can be carried per fighter; you have to be in the same hex as the (warship) target, and roll 10+. If hit, the warship is destroyed. The Alamo has an "effective Fire Factor of 100", for ground attacks (see above).

Ah:
In reply to:


Orbit to Surface Bombardment
A WarShip in low orbit (just above the space/atmosphere interface) may fire its capital ship bay Fire Factors at surface targets. The 18-kilometer Ground hex of the BattleSpace mapsheet (containing the 1-kilometer Battletech mapboard) must be within the firing arc of the bays used, and must be in range (allowing for the effects of atmosphere). Nominate a hex on the BattleTech map as the target for the bombardment, and roll 2D6 against a To-Hit Number of 10. If the result is equal or greater than the to-hit number, the bombardment has landed directly on target.
If the result is less than the to-hit number, the bombardment deviates from its intended point of impact. Roll 1D6 and consult the Scatter Diagram, p. 38, to determine the direction in which the bombardment missed.
Find the distance in hexes by which the bombardment missed the target by rolling 1D6 and multiplying the result by the difference between the Attack Roll result and the to-hit number. For example, if the result of the Attack Roll was 6, the roll failed to hit by 4 (10 - 6 = 4). The player rolls 1D6 for a result of 4. The strike missed its target by 16 hexes.
Whether the bombardment lands on target or not, the blast will create damage over a large area. The damage from the bombardment will decrease with distance from the point of impact. At the impact point, the damage inflicted will be equal to the number of Fire Factors used for the attack, multiplied by 10. For each hex away form the impact, reduce the damage by 2 Fire Factors (20 points of BattleTech damage). To apply damage to any victims in the blast area, use the angle of attack for damage originating in the impact hex. Woods provide no protection against this type of damage, but if terrain 2 levels higher than either the impact or target hexes lies between the impact point and the target unit, the terrain shields the unit from damage. A victim in the hex of impact will take damage as if punched in the back.
Nuclear Weapons
[skipped fluff]
Any attempt to use an Alamo will require the fighter transporting it to enter the hex of the target (in space or on the ground). The player then rolls 2D6 against a To-Hit Number of 10. If the result is equal to or greater than the to-hit number, the attack succeeds. A successful attack against a target in space will automatically destoy the target, even if the target could normally survive the damage. Attacks against a ground target with an Alamo missile use the space-to-surface bombardment rules, with three exceptions:
No terrain can protect against an atomic weapon.
Remove any terrain features (including hills and lakes) or buildings within 25 hexes of ground zero (the point of impact). Buildings beyond the 25 hex area will take damage normally.
Automatically destroy any infantry within 50 hexes of ground zero. Battle-suited units take damage normally.
Alamo missiles have an effective Fire Factor of 100.



-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
NathanKell
08/30/02 02:01 PM
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I would hesitantly say that, for house rules, you could equip nuclear warheads on capital missiles; the warhead multiplies their damage by 100. Thus Barracudas do 200 (2000) pts damage, White Sharks 300, Killer Whales 400, and Krakens 1000--whoopee!
Note that to their effective health (2,3,4,10) for PD to kill them is unchanged.

And...No more InstaKill (tm)--nukes just do damage normally; after all, BT armor (and the crew within) survives worse radiation just undergoing intrasystem transit.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
08/30/02 02:38 PM
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Radiation is only a true danger to organic (read "human") targets. The outstanding temperatures and force of expansion are what a ship would have to fear. A high end nuke could match the heat and force of a solar flare (in theory at least), and I doubt any ship could survive that. Yet the InstaKill (tm) is a bit irrational, and the big damage multiplier you suggested is a good start.
meow
Nightmare
08/30/02 04:26 PM
194.251.240.106

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Instakill or not, I`d think the radiation blast of a nuclear explosion would screw up your electronics something fierce. All filters would snap on, safety cutoffs and emergency fuses blow all over the ship. You`d be blind for a good while. Certainly long enough for another capital ship to rip you to pieces.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
KamikazeJohnson
08/30/02 05:46 PM
142.161.0.92

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Well, it can be assumed that the Wobbies didn't just nuke EVERYBODY they faced...after all, they likely wanted to claim some spoils of war. Not to mention a limited, although large, supply of such weapons.

So many battles would be fought using few or no nukes etc., allowing a "hero" class character to beat them (especially if they weren't expecting him)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
08/30/02 06:25 PM
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You are aware that Hiroshima and Nagisaki were misfires? A faulty nuke can still take out a large area. Also, a typical nuke consists of two or more chunks of the material that are at around 90% of a critical mass that get blown together so the chain reaction is more likely in case of a misfire. Since the first nukes constructed during WWII, the architecture of the bomb has been tweaked to insure an explosion, even if diminished.

Anyway, proper fusion turns stable and nearly stable hydrogen into stable helium. This is what the houses would use as it is much cleaner and easier to fuel once it gets started. A fission reactor is easier to build and start, but requires more expensive heavy radioctive material to run (usually uranium 238). In the reactor, a calculatable amount of uranium fuses with a discarded helium instead of breaking into smaller atoms, this plutonium can then be extracted and makes a very nice base for a nuclear weapon (dirty or true).

meow
NathanKell
08/30/02 06:49 PM
24.44.238.62

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In fact, there was a discussion on this board around the turn of the year about nuclear weapons, and the conclusion was that the Houses *did* have nuclear stockpiles; they just didn't *use* them. From the Battlespace rulebook's section on Weapons of Mass Destruction:
In reply to:

However, no Clan or Inner Sphere force will use these weapons in modern-day warfare: as Theodore Kurita wrote in Modern Tactics, published in 3036: "[the use of weapons of mass destruction] is unethical even by the loose standards of any military definition of right and wrong."



Note that it does not say the weapons are not around; just unused. While almost certainly the Clans do not even have them, they could easily manufacture them; and it is nearly certain the Houses *do* have them, either from stockpiles or recent manufacture; they are just unwilling to either destroy that which they would like to capture, or re-inaugurate the 1st SW.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson
novakitty
08/30/02 06:58 PM
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I do not know what kind of numbers were needed for the jihad, and I do not know how well the technology survived.

What I do know is that once the formula and numbers are known (which is what took most of the time to make the first), the rest is finding the element in a reasonably pure state and putting parts together.

There are the Alamo warheads that were mentioned here, but I think that centuries of B movies about giant radioactive gophers helped build a culture that was afraid of using nukes as weapons. This might be why no American cities are building nuclear power plants despite their advantages over all other methods currently in use worldwide.
meow
KamikazeJohnson
08/30/02 07:34 PM
142.161.0.92

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Note: according to the DC sourcebook, the LC made use of tactical nukes in 2465. True, this is still a great span of time before the WoB Jihad, but it shows that there were nukes to be used at that point, not just abandoned stockpiles on Terra. Don't discount the black market...there were likely many entities who wanted to maintain a supply of nukes...either to use, to hold as a threat, or to have in order to respond on kind if someone else used them first.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Countergod
08/30/02 08:40 PM
160.39.138.48

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I would also like to point out that as of 3026, the Lyran Commonweath had atleast 1 tactical nuclear bomb. Read the Sea Skimmer battlehistory in 3026. This indicates that most houses DO have small wones and are just not willing to use them unless in dire situation and assurances that civilian casualties are VERY few (in this case, I believe the only casualties were the skimmer crew, a few platoons of DC infantry, and a few DC tanks + crew).
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
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