TRYCORP
03/27/02 01:54 PM
64.12.104.36
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Why does everyone hate AC's? I like AC's I have used them effectively on many occasions. Once of my favoreite designs is the Ryoken D(i think) with a Ultra AC\20.
"Machine Guns! Thats a Summoner out there! Do you plan to punch little holes in it, and have it fall down from too much ventilation!?!"
TRYCORP
Clan Nova Cat
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Cray
03/27/02 02:06 PM
204.245.128.3
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The Ultra AC/20 has its points, as does the RAC/5 and (personally) I like the UAC/10.
But most ACs - especially the old, non-Clan plain old ACs - suck. They have atrocious damage-to-weight ratios, particularly in the era of DHS.
[edit] Clarification: I don't HATE ACs, I just find there are often much better weapons to be used.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/27/02 03:12 PM)
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novakitty
03/27/02 02:06 PM
209.242.100.230
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I do not hate ACs, I just usually find a better balance of damage range and heat in energy weapons or some missiles.
I do, however, like the HV and Rotary ACs, nothing like doing 2 damage to a target on the other side of the map for a few rounds until something else gets into range (a few head hits in there really annoy the other player).
meow
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Karagin
03/27/02 03:02 PM
63.173.170.225
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I like ACs, infact most of my designs have them...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
03/27/02 04:06 PM
134.121.247.162
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They're not very good.
Ultra ACs aren't worth investing in, unless you just really enjoy wasting ammo.
RACs have promise.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Hurlbut
03/27/02 09:28 PM
204.96.225.45
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Not even for the lower weapons in the Old AC series coupled with specaility ammo?
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Nightward
03/27/02 09:28 PM
132.234.1.13
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I am working off the top of my head here, so if the numbers are wrong, go easy on me.
Let's assume you are building a Level 1 'Mech. You decide to give it an A/C-2. For 2 more tons, you can have an A/C-5 and do double damage. For another 2 tons, you can have an A/C-10 and do 5 times the damage of the original A/C. But for another 4 tons, you could have an A/C-20 and do 10 times as much damage as the original A/C-2. So for relatively minor increases in tonnage, you can go to extremes. If you want to mount an A/C, you may as well go for a 20-calibre.
but let's compare some energy weapons. Medium lasers are good for this; 4 medium lasers do as much damage as one A/C-20. Including the heat sinks you need to be able to run and use all four, this entire system weighs 8 tons. 4 for the lasers, 4 for the Heat Sinks. Compare this to the minimum of 16 tons you need for the A/C-20 (15 for the weapon and 1 ton of ammunition), and the fact that the A/C takes up a total of 11 Crits, as opposed to the laser's 8, and you can see that energy weapons are far better.
Now, PPCs and A/C-10s. Same damage, better ranges- even if the PPC has a minimum of 3 hexes. The A/C weighs 12 tons with ammo, and the PPC weighs 9 tons including heat sinks. You could also use a Large Laser (total mass of 5) instead of an A/C-10 to obtain a similar damage profile with greater ranges than the A/C.
An A/C-5 can be mimicked with an LRm-5 weighing 3 tons with ammo.
Then there is the ammunition. As we know, it tends to explode. Not fun. But you are also limited to X amount of shots; energy weapons have no ammo.
In terms of fluff? Eneregy weapons are more difficult and expensive to maintain, and tend to be quite touchy in combat. Ballistic and missile weaponry require little more than a daily prayer to the local God of Maintenance to insure they will work.
In sum, it depends on whether it is a fluff 'Mech or one being built for battlefield superiority. In general, energy weapons are a better choice, particularly on light 'Mechs where tonnage may be limited. Ballistic weapons should be reserved for 'fluff' machines, or hard-hitting close combat platforms like the Victor.
Hopefully my poor grammar and weak arguments have not fried your poor brain 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Nightward
03/27/02 10:20 PM
132.234.1.13
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That new Precision ammunition has a lot of potential- particularly on larger-calibre weapons
The AP ammo is nice but the drawbacks tend to outweigh the benefits, particularly for larger cannons where the ammo would be useful. An A/C-20 only gets 2 shots per ton of ammo. Ugh.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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LordChaos
03/27/02 11:41 PM
216.161.102.215
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"Now, PPCs and A/C-10s. Same damage, better ranges- even if the PPC has a minimum of 3 hexes. The A/C weighs 12 tons with ammo, and the PPC weighs 9 tons including heat sinks."
That explains the limitations and problems of your line of thinking. While this is true if you are only going to mount the 1 weapon, if when you add a second, it changes. The second AC-10 still only weighs 12 tons, whil the second PPC and it's heat sinks come in at 17 tons. this means that 2 AC 10s would take up 24 tons + whatever ammo. 2 PPCs would take up 26 tons with heat sinks. A 3rd such weapon is an additional 17 tons again for the ppc/heat sink combo, but still only 12 tons for the AC.
AC's are usefull if heat is potential problem, but weight and space isn't as much. yes, individualy, energy weapons are better. But when you start doubling up, AC's low heat comes into play.
As for your line about 4 medium lasers vs an ac20... yes, they do the same damage IF ALL FOUR HIT, AND ALL FOUR HIT THE SAME LOCATION. Odds are, you aren't going to hit with all 4, and that those that do hit will spread their damage out. The AC will rip right through whatever armor is on the location it hits.
In level 1, no one weapon was perfect. They all traded something for something else. ACs traded mass and compactness for heat effecientcy and concentrated damage.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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TRYCORP
03/28/02 12:04 AM
205.188.197.24
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But what about heat? Personally for me the less the better. A ton of energy weapons and your roasty toasty really fast.
"Machine Guns! Thats a Summoner out there! Do you plan to punch little holes in it, and have it fall down from too much ventilation!?!"
TRYCORP
Clan Nova Cat
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Bob_Richter
03/28/02 03:39 AM
134.121.247.162
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Problem:
AC/10s ALSO use heat sinks -- THREE of them.
And they need AMMO, too.
3xPPC= 17+17+7 = 41
3xAC/10= 13+13+13 = 39
Where's that HUUGE payoff again?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
03/28/02 03:40 AM
134.121.247.162
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Depends on how many heat sinks you have.
A 'Mech with 20 HS and 2 PPCs is in better shape than one with 10 HS and 4 AC/5s.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
03/28/02 06:30 AM
204.245.128.3
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Not really. The specialty AC ammo doesn't do much for me. The specialty ammo I like are mostly LRMs - mines and I-Narc compatible stuff. I can get done what needs to be done with medium lasers, PPCs, and LRMs. ACs are unnecessarily heavy duplication of effort.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
03/28/02 06:40 AM
204.245.128.3
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>That explains the limitations and problems of your line of thinking. While this is true if you are only going to mount the 1 weapon, if when you add a second, it changes. The second AC-10 still only weighs 12 tons, whil the second PPC and it's heat sinks come in at 17 tons
While that does make ACs seem attractive, you're using an artificially narrow selection of weapons to compare ACs against.
For example, LRMs are considerably lighter for the range and damage they deal out than an AC. They have minimum range issues, of course, but that's neatly covered with some lasers (medium or large) that use the heat sinks of the LRMs you just shut down when the target got nearby. Further, the damage concentration of LRMs is comparable to the 3 lighter AC classes. An LRM 5, at 3 tons with ammo, trumps an AC/2 six ways from Sunday. An LRM 10, at 6 tons, is superior to an AC/5. An LRM 15 or 20 beats an AC/10 in most ways, and can be backed up with a packet of medium lasers that covers the short range advantage of an AC/10.
AC/20s and LRMs aren't really comparable due to sharply differing roles and, of course, the concentrated damage of an AC/20.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Grizzly
03/28/02 09:36 AM
12.108.119.227
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I don't hate AC's, I actually like them. I like to use RAC 5', LBX 10's, and LBX/UAC 20's. In the level one environment there a great low heat weapon. The problem occurs in the level 2 game. Then the AC really has no benifits over a laser, which sucks, because then all you get are laser/gauss rifle mechs or laser/missile mechs. Why put a non-specialized AC on a mech when a laser can do the job for less weight, and no ammo explosion.
So to summarize, the regular AC is a much needed weapon in level one play, but is just not as efficient as other choices in the level 2 game, although I still use them to add variety, and because in my mind nothing says lovin' like the roar of an autocannon!
"I am but mad north-northwest, when the wind is southerly I know a hawk from a handsaw" Hamlet
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KG_Brandenburg
03/28/02 09:46 AM
24.162.144.193
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Dude, PPC's rock. When i design a mech, allways try to make it as well rounded as possible. Also depends what kind of mission it will be used for.If it will be used for extended durrations w\o the possibility for supply, it would be best to stick w\energy weapons as your main hitting power. I guess that line of thinkin would apply to Campaign play mainly.
Branden
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TRYCORP
03/28/02 11:51 AM
205.188.197.154
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(See Title)
"Machine Guns! Thats a Summoner out there! Do you plan to punch little holes in it, and have it fall down from too much ventilation!?!"
TRYCORP
Clan Nova Cat
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LordChaos
03/28/02 04:05 PM
216.161.103.181
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that's what I was trying to say, but people missed it. In level 1, energy weapons quickly loose their advantage over ACs when you mount numbers of each, due to the heat requirements of the energy weapons. yes, AC's produce heat, but at a far lower level then "equivilent" energy weapons (or LRMs in some cases, IIRC). And, before anoyone else tries to bring up ammo... multiple ACs can share the same ammo. You can ahve 2 AC 10s with only 1 ton of ammo (though you will run out quickly that way).
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Diablo
03/28/02 05:08 PM
206.186.146.254
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I just don't see the use of AC's to be efficient. I would much rather use up tonnage piling on ERPPC's and DHS rather than have 7 or 10 tonnes of AC plus 3 or 4 tonnes of explosive (and deadly) ammunition near my XL engines. they may have the edge on heat, but the more damage you want to do, the shorter the ranges get and the faster and/or more armour you need to stay alive and still use the weapon. I'd much prefer to stick with Gauss rifles, ERPPC's and ER large pulse lasers...
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NathanKell
03/28/02 07:44 PM
24.44.238.62
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And if you're in level 2, you already *have* 20 HS.
To summarize (part the umpteenth): In Level 1, the /5 and /10 have a place. The AC/20 (and its derivatives) always has a (albeit small, IMO) place as a head-chopper.
No others do.
And none but the RAC/5 and perhaps the /20s have a place in L2+.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
KamikazeJohnson
03/28/02 09:12 PM
209.202.47.12
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Generally speaking, ACs are too heavy to be the efficient choice. The AC/10 is a good all-purpose weapon, although in most cases it turns out inferior to a PPC. The AC/20, of course, is useful due to sheer destructive force.
Personally, I enjoy working ACs into a design, mostly because I like designing "character" 'Mechs. A questionable, inefficient weapon makes the machine much more fun to use :-)
ACs provide a good alternative when all your designs start looking the same :-)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Nightmare
03/29/02 12:49 AM
194.251.240.107
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AC/2 and AC/5 are useless weapons. Totally useless. I happily use AC/10 and AC/20 if any mech I roll up has one,
but the smaller ones aren`t worth the weight or space.
The only good thing with ACs is that ammo is cheap
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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LordChaos
04/04/02 02:21 AM
216.161.101.3
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I would just like to say that I just finished a game.. were the turning point was an exchange of fire between a Jagermech and an Orion... with the Orion only scratching the Jagermech... and a single AC2 round from the jagermech hitting hte pristine Orion, getting a hit location of 2 (Ct Crit), 2 crits rolled, both Gyro hits.
the biggest, baddest mech on the board... turned into a spectator by the most maligned weapon (and one of the most maligned mechs) in the entire game.
Just that I'd share that.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Bob_Richter
04/04/02 11:27 AM
134.121.247.162
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Luck. Not ACs.
Try to separate the two emotionally.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
04/04/02 11:35 AM
194.251.240.107
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Sadly, there`s enough war in the Inner Sphere that even JagerMechs get to see action
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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KamikazeJohnson
04/04/02 01:25 PM
209.202.47.12
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Reminds me of one of the test matches I did yesterday (see Day 1 Results). The SCB was picking at an Atlas with an AC/2 ans an LB 5-X. The Atlas couldn't hit anything with its LRM, and was out of range for everything else, but the SCB hit it from the right side with the AC/2...rolled 2, RT(crit), 1 crit, AC/20! Scary thing is, the Atlas still almost won!
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cray
04/04/02 02:09 PM
204.245.128.3
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That's a good case for why Luck and Lady Fate rule, but says little about the value of an AC/2, or ACs in general.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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NathanKell
04/04/02 04:17 PM
24.44.238.62
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The exception that proves the rule, as it were, and is notable only because it's so rare (and that there's nothing *else* good that can be said about AC2s...)
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Cheapbuzz
04/27/02 05:39 PM
131.36.116.42
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The only time I absolutly hated AC's was when I was ambushed by two Hunchback IICs. Other than that ultra 10s and 20s are cool. I also have had very bad luck with the rotary AC's they will lock up without question by the end of the third round of game play for me.
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Bob_Richter
04/29/02 07:14 PM
134.121.157.14
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At least RACs can be UNjammed.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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