Requiem
03/07/20 04:36 PM
101.185.82.147
|
For particular points within the history numbers can be used to determine events, such as ….
Why is there such a disparity between the Clans populations? The Number of Maturation Chambers Available and the number of washouts per sibko to maintain each Clan Individual Touman Size?
Jade Falcon - Population (Clan Space): 116,264,000 (3060) - Clusters: 47 – (Population / Cluster in millions and rounded up - 2.5)
Star Adder - Population (Clan Space): 108,695,000 (3060) – (Nt. Clan Burrock joined Star Adder in 3059 thus this figure is two clans added together at this stage) - Clusters: 52 (P/C: 2.1)
Ice Hellion - Population (Clan Space): 101,309,000 (3060) - Clusters: 21 (P/C: 4.8)
Hell’s Horses - Population (Clan Space): 95,317,000 (3060) - Clusters: 37 (P/C: 2.6)
Snow Raven - Population (Clan Space): 94,199,000 (3060) - Clusters: 26 (P/C: 3.6)
Fire Mandrill - Population (Clan Space): 81,719,000 (3060) - Clusters: 30 (P/C: 2.7)
Coyote - Population (Clan Space): 73,360,000 (3060) - Clusters: 35 (P/C: 2.1)
Diamond Shark - Population (Clan Space): 67,859,000 (3060) - Clusters: 33 (P/C: 2.1)
Goliath Scorpion - Population (Clan space): 67,238,000 (3060) - Clusters: 24 (P/C: 2.8)
Cloud Cobra - Population (Clan Space): 58,374,000 (3060) - Clusters: 22 (P/C: 2.7)
Steel Viper - Population (Clan Space): 57,275,000 (3060) - Clusters: 39 (P/C: 1.5)
Ghost Bear - Population (Clan Space): 24,294,000 (3060) - Clusters: 58 (P/C: 0.5)
Nova Cats – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 50+
Wolf – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 40
Blood Spirit – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 45
Smoke Jaguar – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 70+
There are statistical anomalies –
Ghost Bear – very low population however very high number of Clusters – Very high number within the Trial of Position?
Ice Hellion – very high population however very low number of Clusters – Very low number within the Trial of Position?
However, there is a slight correlation between the overall population size and their individual military size – Remove Ice Hellion, Snow Raven, Steel Viper and Ghost Bear – Low (2,100,000) to High (2,800,000) people per cluster.
Quote:
The Grand Council was left to absorb and debate what had happened in the preceding months during their meeting on 27 April. Due to their treachery in siding with the Inner Sphere, Khan N'Buta of Clan Star Adder called for the Nova Cats to be Annihilated, though the Wardens (led by Clan Ghost Bear) blocked that vote. Instead, Khan Ward of Clan Wolf called for their Abjuration, which achieved the necessary four-fifths majority, and the Nova Cats were given a month to evacuate their Clan holdings…… Nova Cat forces held off attacking Crusader forces to allow time for their civilian castes to escape
Assumption:- Use the above maximum of 2,800,000 people per cluster
Then Nova Cat – approx. 140,000,000 people
Then Wolves – approx. 112,000,000 people
With a Leviathan Heavy Transport 250,000 people
Clan Nova Cat required 560 ships (max. approx.)
and Ghost Bears required 100 ships
and what about the Snow Ravens, they will require 380 Ships
and what about the Wolves, they will require 448 ships (max. approx.)
and what about the Jade Falcons, they will require 465 ships
Can someone explain where all these Leviathans came from? (need a maximum of 1,955 Leviathan ships (approx.))
Or did they just leave the majority of their people to their fate back in the Kerensky Cluster?
Sibko and True Born Numbers via Iron Wombs
Is the reverse of this also true?
Clan Ghost Bears have the smallest number of Iron Wombs – thus the smallest number of Sibkos however they have the highest number of graduates – very few wash out to affect the overall population of the Clan. (Those that become warriors the majority (all) die in combat – growth rate of population is nearly all freeborn)
However Clan Jade Falcon have a high wash out rate from the number of sibko’s they do have – growth rate therefore is from the high number of previous True-borns and free-borns who go on to have children (thus exponentially increasing their overall size over time.)
So how can you workout each clans approximate sibko numbers per year per Clan – given a fixed attrition rate within the Clan Home Worlds per year? – and then they will have to increase this number of graduates to meet the number of deaths within the IS per year – however even if this increase was started in 3050 it will take a further 20 years before each clan can actually receive the dividends in this change in policy (3070 minimum). So does any of the Clans to more Free-born within their Touman to make up for number of warriors lost?
As these sibko graduate numbers are required to determine replacement numbers within the IS – when considering each Clans Loss Depletion Report (Butcher’s Bill), to determine number of available clusters at any given period of time.
The is also true for the IS – How many graduates come out of each Houses Academies per year to fill the Officer Corp (and how many of these are represented within the ‘MechWarrior Corp), and how many go through basic training per year to fill all the other important functions (including infantry positions)?
Then there is the question of production numbers for every military industrial complex (IS and Clan) – how many Mechs, elemental suits, aerospace fighters are produced per year to understand the number of units each state / Clan has as well as the number of replacement ‘Mechs per year are received per unit (however some have better relationships with the procurement dept. than others)?
Ie. Given Ghost Bears small population number their ability to manufacture vast amounts of new material should be considered to be low compared to that of the Jade Falcons who has a high population.
Logistics numbers for both Clan and IS units – there is no way to determine these numbers! All we can do is guess (except for warship numbers that is)
Also how do these numbers change over time with building new lines / loosing lines to battle damage etc.
How can anyone work these out without making a massive amount of assumptions?
How can you effectively work out each House’s / Clan’s production output per year given all their military industrial complex and how they change per year with the allocation of available resources?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
03/07/20 04:47 PM
70.118.172.64
|
Have you thought about applying for a job with CGL?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 01:07 AM
101.185.82.147
|
How droll Karagin .....
Question – How can we truly understand the History of the Inner Sphere is we do understand the quantifiable nature of every battle (or at least every major battle) and every military industrial (logistics) and each units TO&E at every point in time as well as every academy (sibko) graduating class - and the accumulated affect each has upon the whole?
There are no figures for warriors lost / warriors gained – even if it for each Clan’s invasion corridor wave.
As how do we get from the 20 year Update TO&E for each House (set in 3050) to that of all the House Books now set in 3062? Fow how does the Fed Com – go from nearly 280 Regiments down to something like 140-160 Regiments when the DC only lost about 10 in the same time period?
There are vivid descriptions of how each Inner Sphere Unit was smashed upon the alter of war by the Clans – and yet for the Clans this remains completely elusive – though it is strange that for the majority of the invasion the Clans are written from the point of view that they never succumbed a single casualty during their battles against the Inner Sphere forces – which is highly unbelievable.
Thus all we have is but an opinion as to what is transcribing and not what is actually transcribing when we have no quantifiable information.
Thus we have once more an unbelievable setting for the entire war which leads to the entire history thereafter as being a subjective issue.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
csadn
03/08/20 01:26 AM
50.53.22.4
|
What we have at CGL -- and WizKids, and FASA, before it -- is a bunch of gamers who have no grasp whatsoever of History, or Economics, or the sciences, or much of anything practical; and so they have painted themselves into more corners than the curb-maintenance team at the Nurburgring.
I know, first-hand -- I had to deal with their ignorance when _Crimson Skies_ was a Going Concern.
Do not look for Logic, or Reason, in the sourcebooks -- know that they exist for one, and only one reason: To vacuum money out of the pockets of the fandom.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
|
Karagin
03/08/20 11:17 AM
70.118.172.64
|
Quote:
How droll Karagin .....
Not droll, I think you would do some good working for them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 05:51 PM
101.185.82.147
|
How can you create both logistics (from single item ‘Mech / Fighter / Elemental to the space parts market – keeping all forces in the field) and Replacement Personnel Numbers for both the Clans and the IS that can be considered realistic and believable and that can also change over time to reflect the changing demand from the battlefield for new products? .... and, in so doing, create a means of quantifying the overall invasion – and allowing each side to make changes to history as required.
In the absence of battling every battle ever fought within the Clan’s Invasion there is no way of creating an accurate picture of what is going on – however there should be a way to take your one Clan / IS unit and fight from an initial point to the conclusion of the story – by factoring in replacement logistics and personnel and then to create a narrative that can be considered believable as to what is occurring around your unit.
The only approach, I can suggest, therefore is the narrowing the game’s units for the supply / resupply of individual units according to the overarching story line.
So if the story calls for damaged units they must start with the level of damage as indicated ....
On a side note, however, how does a Clan request supplies from their holdings within the Kerensky Cluster? As I realised there is nothing written as to this process – as well as how each Clan within Kerensky Cluster Communicates with their Front Line Units – What we know is that there is a series of HPG Ships situated along the Exodus Road with a Logistics space station situated at its end within the Deep Periphery.
Any message received within the Deep Periphery therefore has two options (due to security reasons) ...
• A pony express of the information via ship to and from the Inner Sphere, to the space station itself where a message can be sent and received (Using their Logistics Merchant Ships or one of their Warships). However given the time this would take it would be highly unbelievable – timely and accurate information would be required both within Clan Space and that of the IS Invasion units.
• Each Clan owns and operates small HPG space station facilities that are able to tap into an extended series of HPG stations from the entry point of their invasion back to the deep Periphery logistics space station and from there back to the Kerensky Cluster, Strana Mechty and the Hall of Khans (Where each Clan operates and maintains their own CIC facility.)
Any communication within the Inner Sphere and to this facility, located at their entry point, is sent via a ComStar Facility – as every conquered world’s ComStar HPH facility would now be controlled / monitored by a Clan Technician(s) when they need to dispatch a message to their Khan on the front Lines or to their CIC located on Strana Mechty.
<Note: There needs to be a change to the exodus Road HPG Ships – rather than ships they should be small space stations that have been mass produced, and as such not only cover the distance along the Exodus Way but also extend to the top of every invasion corridor – and from there they use IS technology for their communication needs.>
Returning to the topic at hand ....
However for the initial Clan Invasion they should have 100% maintenance as well as the parts required to maintain / replace damaged ‘Mech, Elementals and Aerospace units until such a time as their supply ships can be attacked / captured by IS forces and from then on notes must be placed as to any shortage of parts / consumables etc and implemented within the units being dispatched.
Thus from a logistics point of view within my game setting every January and June new Logistics ships will arrive at the Deep Periphery Logistics Facility where by each Clan will be requested to collect their logistics and disseminate it as required to either their hidden supply bases within the Deep Periphery or directly to their forces within the IS (based upon each clans logistical schedule – the most important front line units first and the Garrison Units last or starting at the rear periphery worlds and moving along a planet by planet drop from the rear to the most forward. Just remember as each invasion corridor increases so too does the time taken for supplies to reach the front line. Thus without an adequate number of Merchantmen vessels some Clans may find themselves running low at times with regards to their logistical requirements as the war progresses, thus forcing those with a small number of merchant ships to slow / cease operations due to a lack of supplies.
Clan Wolf – 82 jumpships; 242 dropships – shouldn’t have great deal of issues with logistics;
Jade Falcon – 12 jumpships; 140 dropships – Will have mass problems with Logistics and will require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Ghost Bears - 27 Jumpships - Problems with Logistics may arise toward the fourth / fifth wave and may require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Smoke Jaguars - 38 Jumpships - Problems with Logistics may arise toward the fourth / fifth wave and may require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Steel Vipers 13 Jumpships - Will have mass problems with Logistics and will require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Nova Cats 23 Jumpships - Problems with Logistics may arise toward the fourth / fifth wave and may require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
<Unless each Clan requests more Jump-ships from their Holdings within the Kerensky Cluster to assist with Logistical Requirements. More Targets for my Fenrir Units!>
Given the lack of information regarding Clan Logistics this decision therefore must be made by the Games GM or written into the Historical narrative that such a situation is occurring for certain Clan’s.
There could also be another solution – Clan Diamond Shark – they could be allowed within all Invasion Corridors to supplement each individual Clans Merchant Fleet with their own thus reducing the time for supplies to arrive on the front lines. And in so doing each Invasion Clan will now be reliant upon Diamond Shark for their Logistics whist fighting against the IS.
However the main issue for the Clans is replacement personnel ....
Non-Warrior Caste Members should not be problem - as they can just dispatch as many as required from the Kerensky Cluster each January and June and to arrive in the IS each subsequent June and January. <ie. Those that have been killed, kidnapped, or defected.>
The biggest issue therefore for the Invading Clans must be the Warrior replacement numbers being sent to their Deep Periphery final testing facilities where each group will be allowed to undertake final training and their Trial of Position before being sent to reinforce an appropriate Invasion Unit ....
So how to work out the numbers?
Given each Clan entered into the IS with the following numbers .....
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters;
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters;
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries)
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries)
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries)
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries)
Reinforcement numbers will be based upon a simple percentage figure and a single roll of a d6 to keep things interesting ….
My Home Rule regarding reinforcement numbers every 6 months for a January / June Graduation.
<Remember to add time for them to be transported to their new unit and to be placed with their new unit.>
<Khans may accelerate this at any time if they are desperate for warriors.>
<These numbers will be fairly constant from 3050 to 3067-8 where some Khans may have changed the number of available sikos so as to have more warriors within the IS or they may change the requirements for graduation – GM to determine any change to original numbers.>
Example:
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters;
Start with a base figure 10% then add on my above P/C figure of 2.5 thus for the Jade Falcons their base replacement number 12.5% p.a. of the original number they brought into the IS (rounded up)
Base Number at 12.5% would therefore be ….. for Clan Jade Falcon for True-Born Warriors
MechWarriors………………122 p.a. (every six months 61)
Elementals………………….280 p.a. (every six months 140)
Aerospace Pilots……………73 p.a. (every six months 37-8)
However to keep things interesting I believe a modifier should be allowed …roll 1D6
Roll of 6 …. Add 2% …..Base Number now 14.5%
Roll of 5 …. Add 1% …..Base Number now 13.5%
Roll of 3 and 4 …. Remain at 12.5%
Roll of 2 …. Less 1% …..Base Number now 11.5%
Roll of 1 …. Less 2% …..Base Number now 10.5%
This 1D6 roll should be rolled independently for each category – MechWarrior, Elemental and Aerospace Pilot
As for the number of Free-Born / Solhama warriors, depending on each Clans attitude towards them, their replacement numbers will be the True-born Figure divided by 10 (round down)
MechWarriors………………12 p.a. (every six months 6)
Elementals………………….28 p.a. (every six months 14)
Aerospace Pilots……………7 p.a. (every six months 3-4)
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 05:58 PM
101.185.82.147
|
As for individual Units within the Overall Touman – look at how many you home unit lost in the battle and extrapolate it across for all units? And then just keep a running tally of individuals lost for each six months of warfare - GM can then assign replacement personnel as and when they arrive within the invasion corridor <world they are operating from – as a Garrison unit or front line unit>.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/08/20 05:59 PM)
|
ghostrider
03/08/20 07:11 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The black hole of canon bashing is getting bigger.
Now the demand for hard numbers comes about, as it creates even more issues as there is no POSSIBLE way, they could account for everything. The entire show of numbers for the invasion forces can not be right. Unless that is the bid for the invasion, and not all ships that are part of moving supplies.
The clans can order parts when ever they want, and not have to use comstar at all. The HPGs on their ships would circumvent that. Also, why does it have to be 6 months to order? They could order every week, and get the part in the IS.
Now a question to really throw a wrech into the complaint. WHAT type of dropships and jumpships were used for the numbers that were provided? The Falcons using 12 jumpships with the warships suggests they only used Monoliths or something of that size. This would mean they could not spread out quickly, as the Wolves numerous jumpships and dropships suggest they use smaller ones to move their units. So Overlord IIC might be the Falcons main ship, but might not be the Wolves main ships..
But this is the start of more issues. Once in print, then the argument turns to not allowing GMs to do anything creative with the game. So hard numbers is nothing more then a club to beat the drum of canon is wrong.
Everyone knows there are issues with the game. Most just don't care much as the fluff is just that. Fluff. Hard numbers can't be done, as you are talking trying to keep track of every unit in every battle. Since the game says raids happen a lot, yet very few of them are ever written about, that causes more issues with numbers changing then your large battles.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 08:06 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Cannon Bashing? ….. hardly, when you consider they have had how many years to fix the logistical nature of the game ….
Quote:
…..as there is no POSSIBLE way, they could account for everything.
This is their job, and yes they can, you just need a large enough excel sheet program – not a problem once it is set up – though to set it up will take a considerable amount of time to factor in all the individual equations used (thereafter it is just a question of copy and paste), as they have only had 36 years you might be right give it another 50 years, and they will need a semi-permanent data entry clerk.
Quote:
…..and not all ships that are part of moving supplies.
A TO&E usually includes all supply vessels and logistical support numbers. If a gaming group wants to establish numbers for each Clan’s invasion logistics fleet then do so.
Quote:
……..The HPGs on their ships would circumvent that.
How many warships have HPG built into them? I haven’t even read of one that has such a feature – plus you will need one per world you conquer within the IS (if you are not going to use ComStar facilities), so where do these ships hail from and who built them in the vast numbers that will be required?
Efficiency dictates you will use ComStar Facilities – or have the Clans given up on the idea of waste.
Quote:
why does it have to be 6 months to order?
Yes they can order every week if they want – however the travel time cannot be changed – it is a fixed constant of six months from the Kerensky Cluster to the Deep Periphery Logistical Supply Station – and from there each clan need to transfer them to their warehouses / front supply units (even more time).
So yes, size of each merchant ship will dictate as to time taken to resupply their entire Touman spread over many worlds and located within fleets upon the front lines.
Quote:
Once in print, then the argument turns to not allowing GMs to do anything creative with the game.
How many sections above have allowed the GM to modify the game for their own creativity of the games history?
Quote:
….. as you are talking trying to keep track of every unit in every battle.
Please re-read …. This allows for an individual Clan unit to go through many battles within the IS providing an explanation as to their supplies / reinforcement numbers over time. It can even account for the individual raids (Trial of Possessions) the Clan Units can be involved with when determining available forces for your bid.
And over time it will explain any changes in tactics due to depletion in numbers / depletion in logistics.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/08/20 09:46 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Fix the game?
Fantasy numbers and such isn't as important as rules and continuity. I do agree that it is very frustrating that the game claims one thing, but then comes up with something in complete opposite of such ways. The lack of production, yet some how, 10 new RCTs are made in that time frame, and still bring their losses up to full strength.
I have yet to see other games come up with full lists of TO&Es for each month, or even a year of fighting. Also, this would show just how much BS their own setting really is.
And no. It is NOT their job to make accounting their primary focus. It is about making the game better. As said before, no one has really said much about that many issues with the fluff. Some things are beyond stupid, and talked about, but how many bullets the militia on some obscured backwater world that isn't even on the map isn't one of them.
Where in any of the 4 clans does it say how many ships the Diamond Sharks have to bring in supplies those clans would purchase from? Or even a list of the Diamond Sharks ships? And no. Supply ships aren't standard TO&E for units. Most do not have listed something that doesn't stick with the unit, so shipping in supplies that were not with them when deployed won't show up. If they did, the half of Defiance's fleet would show up on a lot of customers that deal with them. If I remember right, the Sharks were not even the reserve clan for the first invasion wave.
Would it be stupid to even believe the IS would assist the clans in any way, much less give them access to the HPG network? So brining in their own HPG's to set up would be necessary. To not even plan for it is beyond even their arrogance. Not a waste, as they would be more then stupid to think they could trust anyone that would side with them with intel of their forces. But then this is basic planning.
The idea of raids was meant for the IS accounting of how many units they have, as it was complained that the FC dropped so many regiments from the fourth war to 3039, to the clan invasion and beyond.
And the clans did take casualties, but the only ones that seem to matter is those done to further the story line. The entire Falcon Guard on Twycross comes to mind. There were others in the novels, but nothing was really done with them.
Again, consistency is the issue here. The travel time to record the invasion route took so long, but yet replacing damaged units was instantaneous, with the exception of the Wolves. They had their supplies close at hand, while the others didn't. So unless their ships coming in the first wave had the reinforcements on them, there is a big issue here. This is something I do agree with.
|
Requiem
03/09/20 04:49 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
I do agree that it is very frustrating that ….10 new RCTs are made in that time frame, and still bring their losses up to full strength.
Is this not occurring for the majority of the Clan Invasion with the exception of but a few major battles – one against the Jaguars – one against the Jaguars and Cats - and another against the Falcons?
Quote:
I have yet to see other games come up with full lists of TO&Es for each month, or even a year of fighting. Also, this would show just how much BS their own setting really is.
WW2 strategy game for one – as well as more complex strategy games for another should have them when undertaking massive campaigns over a great deal of time – The entire Battletech game can quite conceivably maintain such a system.
Quote:
It is NOT their job to make accounting their primary focus. It is about making the game better.
I agree the primary focus of the game should be to make it better - however when the books indicate that every unit is permanently at 100% fighting strength there is something wrong – when two clans fight a civil war and the IS forces are not allowed to fight them when they have severely damaged one another, not once (Falcons Vs. Wolves) but twice (Wolves Vs Jaguars – reaping warriors to replace those they lost during the Falcon Vs. Wolves) there is something wrong – when the Falcons and Wolves return to the Clan Home Worlds and they are “given” forces from the other Clans without even a trial of absorption to increase their forces to pre civil war there is something wrong.
There must be a mechanism to bring the game back to a responsible and accurate setting so that the games setting is transparent in the level of damage all forces (IS and Clan) are sustaining so that the Invasion can be considered to be accurate and a winner can be determined.
As is the current situation is but one persons attempt at determining a outcome based upon no real rational thought or quantifiable data.
Quote:
Where in any of the 4 clans does it say how many ships the Diamond Sharks have to bring in supplies those clans would purchase from?
…. Known derisively as the "Merchant Clan" by their jealous rivals ….. as well as their Touman – Potemkin Class
This is enough to say they have the ships …
Quote:
Most do not have listed something that doesn't stick with the unit, so shipping in supplies that were not with them when deployed won't show up.
However in this case the these ships will stick with their Clan invasion force within the Deep Periphery and the Inner Sphere – they are an integral part of the invasion (something that TPTB completely forgot) and as such must be included.
Quote:
If I remember right, the Sharks were not even the reserve clan for the first invasion wave.
Their military was not there but their merchants were …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Diamond_Shark
“In the meantime, having studied the conditions in the Periphery, saKhan Sennet returned to the homeworlds and began building support among the merchant caste to send a trading fleet.”
“By the time the merchant fleet had reached the Inner Sphere the First Wave of Operation Revival was nearing its end.”
Quote:
Would it be stupid to even believe the IS would assist the clans in any way, much less give them access to the HPG network?
When a world is conquered by the Clans will they hold ComStars neutrality as any IS House would? Or would they take control of the HPG for their own security as well as their own use? They should have more than enough people to take over a HPG site and run it with their own people – as shouldn’t they be able take any HPG building with no casualties once they have gained access with elementals? That is ComStar will surrender without a fight due to the precious nature of the equipment they control.
Quote:
The idea of raids was meant for the IS accounting of how many units they have, as it was complained that the FC dropped so many regiments from the fourth war to 3039, to the clan invasion and beyond.
The 20 year book is set in 3050 – Fed-Com – close to 270 Regiments (approx.)? and if you factor in the former CC (that I contest should have been taken during the 3039 war how many more should this be? 285 – 290 – 300 Regiments?
Quote:
And the clans did take casualties ……
When reading the ordinary battles there were never any casualty figures for the Clans, and when engaged in further combat it was as if they have never received any casualties ……
Only in special battles Twycross, Walcott, Luthien etc did we receive a run-down of clan casualties, however it was like 5 minutes after the battle these Clan units were miraculously back to 100% ……
Quote:
consistency is the issue here…..
And now with this new system there will be consistency …….. for those who want to use it …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
03/09/20 09:49 AM
70.118.172.64
|
Seriously, you should apply for a job with CGL, with this kind of determined fixation on details you would be boon to their operations and in fact, you could most likely help them out. Clearly, they need someone of your caliber and dedication. I am being serious here, not droll or anything else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
03/09/20 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
|
I suggest reading the Diamond Sharks being with the invasion force. They did not have a fleet of merchant ships with them during the invasion of the periphery. It was only after the Sharks participated in one invasion did the SaKhan return to the home worlds to get the fleet going. And being a merchant clan, does not mean the other clans would deal with them. To do so, would be admitting failure to predict the supplies needed for the invasion. Necessity caused them to swallow that pride.
And there is a very easy way to bring the game back into focus. Stop making the fluff books. But that means their money flow gets cut even more. It is filling in the blanks of history and such that they are having issues with numbers. Again. The rules and consistency need to be fixed before the fluff can be. Otherwise, it will have to change with the next rule book as things are no longer done or things that could not be done, miraculously break the laws of the universe and can be done. Not thru research, but just by being.
You missed the entire concept of the clans believing the IS would help them. When planning for the invasion, they would have the HPGs already built and loaded up as part of the materials needed for the invasion. Not during, when they found comstar would assist them, but before they even hit the periphery. Before talking with Comstar directly, it would have been completely stupid to believe they would be allowed access to the HPG network in the IS. And even with contact, they should have been leery of important messages being sent thru them.
Basing your argument on the alt needs to stop when putting out something like the title of this thread. This looks to be asking why the game isn't accurate on their own unit count. Not a shameless plug for something that has no printed numbers for anything. So arguing that it is the only way is completely false, as there is NOTHING to support that it isn't just made up for an argument.
One thought that comes to mind with reinforcements is that the clans brought in replacements for those that fall when they invaded. They will only use those units at their pre invasion numbers, and make them 100% when they know those that were in a battle will not be returning soon, if ever. Much like most military, where they have back ups for the machines, as well as having extra machines. Reserves is what they are called. As long as they don't violate their bid numbers, they don't have any issues.
And as said before, casualty reports would show that the clans could not even begin to replace their downed units with the pitiful reserves they have for the entire homeworlds. So to cover that, they had to be the invincible boogie man. The dead rise again for then next battle sort of feel.
Not sure why you believe the 'new' system will be consistent, as the basis for the entire story isn't solid. The infantry damage rules changed from an Awesome being able to mow down 3 platoons of infantry a round, to overheating before they could do so in 10 rounds. This would change the outcome of all the battles fought. So with things like this, the story is based on quicksand. The only consistency that is there, is that it won't stand on it's own. Not the consistency we want or need.
|
Requiem
03/09/20 05:37 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
I suggest reading the Diamond Sharks being with the invasion force.
Canon Fact: “By the time the merchant fleet had reached the Inner Sphere the First Wave of Operation Revival was nearing its end.”
Yes their first client, Jade Falcon, did not want anything to do with them – and yet they were able to return to the Kerensky Cluster with ……?
The “loot” of how many worlds …..black market trade ….. trade with the IS? ….. multimedia programs (Psy-Ops approved to bring about cultural instability within the Clan Caste system?) …..
As each Clan progresses within the IS their Logistics distance increases / the greater the difficulty of the logistics chain – the time taken to get their logistics to the front lines increases.
Did anyone within TPTB read about Napoleon Bonaparte’s campaign / Germany’s campaign into Russia, Japan’s entire WW2 campaign with regards to their logistics issues / WW2 the Fox in Libya / Egypt?
One more point that was completely forgotten for the entire Clan Invasion as it was just too difficult / too obscure a topic to consider as only big robots matter and the idea of how they received their consumables is a non issue (except for when it can be used in other stories such as during the Victor / Katherine civil war)?
Contradictions are rife within the game.
Quote:
You missed the entire concept of the clans believing the IS would help them.
Really?
Quote:
…… it would have been completely stupid to believe they would be allowed access to the HPG network in the IS
And what happens when you have captured the world – doesn’t this mean the entire world, its population and every business / organization etc on that world now below to the Clan who won it – and doesn’t this include the HPG station?
As isn’t this what happens on the Clan’s home worlds! and shouldn’t this also occur within the IS as this is just logical, once captured everyone and everything now belongs to the Clan in question – and these people will do whatever I tell them to do?
Quote:
One thought that comes to mind with reinforcements is that the clans brought in replacements for those that fall when they invaded.
Really? There is nothing written in any book anywhere where the clans maintain a reserve force for anything …. Once you have passed your Trial of Position you are assigned to a unit, you are not assigned to sit on the side line until a spot opens up …
Once the bid has been made – units are assigned to battle – are those that are not assigned to this battle allowed on the battlefield if they lose? – so does this make them a reserve unit (who will violate the bid to change the outcome) in any sense of the word? As a reserve unit within the IS is sent in to assist a failing unit within a battle to change the outcome from loss to win by increasing the forces available.
Quote:
So to cover that, they had to be the invincible boogie man. The dead rise again for then next battle sort of feel.
How does it help the game to obfuscate the facts of war? We are provided with IS casualties but the Clan’s are off limits?
Quote:
infantry damage rules
The rules for infantry needs to be re-written to allow for the commando, the use of special weapons, having a team of two or even 4 wandering around with special weapons – the use of scanners (50Km range) etc! The Infantry rules need to be taken from the point of view of the infantryman and not the MechWarrion –
Quote:
….an awesome being able to mow down 3 platoons of infantry a round….
What can they do to damage a ‘Mech (elemental) when they have sneak suits and SRMs with inferno rounds – or how about a man portable small laser, or what about the Barrett 50 (2Km range and with the ability to penetrate) Vs an elemental.
Where is the reality / consistency when the rules are inaccurate or provide one force an advantage they should not have over that of another?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 01:52 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Still suggest rereading the Sharks entry.
The part where the clans had garrison forces in the IS during the first wave. Not when the PGCs got there, but before then. This runs completely counter to the front line troops chaffing at doing such duty.
Without thoroughly checking thru the programs that run the HPG, and even with this, it would be foolish to down right dangerous to think that Comstar didn't have things to copy any data being sent, as well as being able to shut down the HPG network. For suggesting Psy-ops, you seem to miss sabotauge that should be done against every invader.
Maybe rereading the invasion units during the first few waves might come in handy. How many units were NOT involved in them, that the warriors would be more then willing to change a unit, maybe even challenging to a trial of position, to be part of the next assault? Some units would have the favor of the khans to be part of the next attack over the lower units. Still refer to the statement of the garrison units in the first wave.
Also, not having any would be stupid. They know they will take losses. Maybe not as many as they really believed, but it is only a matter of luck before a ppc, ac10, gauss slug or ac 20 hits the head of a mech and kills the pilot. Or even ammo explosion that guts the unit, killing the pilot. Even just being wounded for the next fight would require a fresh warrior in a machine. It could even come from a trial of Grievance.
I agree that the infantry damage needed to be fixed. They just went too far in the opposite way. And with it, the entire scope of a lot of battles would change. Any sort of mech assault on a city full of infantry would have turned out far different then what they did. And more damage to the city would have been done, trying to kill those infantry. So mechs and tanks would be close to useless in cities. Infantry vs infantry would be the norm.
Where is the reality of a PPC that throws basic lightning bolts and ballistic weapons that can't shoot a kilometer. They move between the stars by teleportation. And then the ER version or the PPC removes the inability of the PPC to create that lightning at ranges under 90 meters? The clans should have had normal ppcs without the minimum, as well as the ACs/Gauss issues with short range as well. In reality, the heavier ACs would be harder to aim at shorter ranges, as they need to be swung, which is counter to the weight of the weapon. The longer barrel would not come into play unless hand to hand combat was done.
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 02:09 AM
66.74.60.165
|
And more reality with weapons and such.
An infantry laser has a range of 6 (180 meters) hexes, and yet doesn't even weight a quarter ton, but the vehicle small laser is only 3 (90 meters) hexes and weighs half a ton?
This is the same for the elemental laser, yet they can carry a normal infantry one, and the same thing.
Original SL armor was supposed to be superior to the IS armor in 3025, yet only the Ferro version can protect better for the same weight, yet it is about useless on some of the larger machines with low crits
The greatest sniper rifle, can not do more then a single point of damage to standard mech/vehicle armor, but yet a single hit on normal flesh isn't an instant kill.
I know they tried to keep it simple. Yet they destroy their own arguments with the next set of rules, or even with the same rules. Reality just isn't part of the game as much as people would like it. The contradictions in the rules, or maybe the whims of TPTB, are a big issue.
One more reality that should happen. The clans units should have a built in TC or their main battle computers should have this ability in them. Just targeting better, not the target a body part ability.
|
Requiem
03/10/20 06:18 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Still suggest rereading the Sharks entry.
Canon? …. What does PGCs have to do with it?
Quote:
Without thoroughly checking thru the programs that run the HPG
How many within ComStar have undergone electronic-warfare courses and where were they sent when you compare it to the Clans electronics technicians who are trained to identify any bugs in the computer system and fix them?
With the cans continual technology development in the past centuries (Star League Mechs to Omni Mechs and their head’s up display helmets for example) in comparison to Comstar’s stagnation of technology approach to the IS my bet is the Clans techs development in technology will have the edge when it comes to identifying miscellaneous code errors embedded within the HPG main frame – who knows they could just wipe the old OS / remove the old servers and replace them with something far more advanced and efficient.
and in all reality this could be a possibility …. upgrading all former ComStar HPGs to Clan level tech to ensure efficient communication within their IS invasion corridor and also with their communication hub located within the deep periphery – that connects them with the Kerensky Cluster.
Quote:
How many units were NOT involved in them, that the warriors would be more then willing to change a unit, maybe even challenging to a trial of position, to be part of the next assault?
Wouldn’t you need authorization, as this is within an active battle zone …. By allowing people to shift with a trial of position would cause chaos within the Toumand, as well as cause problems within individual units - how many know their team mates battle routine intimately, by allowing an outsider in you will just through off the rhythm of the members within their star / trinary etc …. For how long have they been working together?
Quote:
Also, not having any would be stupid. They know they will take losses.
Where is it written units have spare pilots? I cannot remember this ever been discussed …..
In case of lost members within a unit wouldn’t you just exclude them by removing them in the initial bid to undertake the next Trial of Possession to capture the IS world?
Where within the bid rules does it allow to take in consideration for units that have been damaged?
What it states is that high ranking commanders make the bid with the forces that available to them - and that is just the undamaged units! Also can’t they merge units to manufacture whole units?
Quote:
I agree that the infantry damage needed to be fixed.
Considering when the majority of RCTs have infantry in the thousands and there are many worlds who have populations in the Billions – that would mean their cities are about the same size of most large US Cities (maybe even bigger) – what would happen when you send in a trinary of just elementals (1,125).?
Quote:
And more reality with weapons and such.
Just more issues that were never rectified ….. that is you want to create your own rules to fix them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/10/20 06:19 AM)
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 01:35 PM
66.74.60.165
|
As it was none of the other Clans' front-line troops were willing to buy from the Diamond Sharks either, even as their supply problems began to grow; when questioned many felt it to be a matter of honor, that to buy from a Clan's lower caste which had traveled to the Inner Sphere before their own warriors had would be an unacceptable stain. A far more practical mindset was to be found among Clan garrison forces however: lacking sufficient supplies to effectively combat the growing resistance movements on their worlds, these forces chose practicality over honor. Within weeks of the start of the second wave the Diamond Sharks had begun to finally turn a profit.[13]
Who was doing the garrison? The front line units, or somsone else?
How many in the clan know anything about those working in Comstar? It isn't like the Dragoons got many, if any, in the organization and found out their little secrets. To think there isn't, and with WOB and even Rohm, thinking their isn't, would be deadly.
It is possible they did upgrade any coding. External units to do so is possible. But one more side issue here. The state in which the HPGs are actually in. It is said most are jury rigged to hell and back, so replacing the components would probably be done. Clan techs might not be able to figure out what was done to keep the units working.
But back to the original point here. The clans should have planned for putting up their own HPG network on their way to Terra.
As a side thought, why would the untrusting, freeborn hating clans even begin to trust the freeborn barbarians of the IS with something like the HPG network?
There were more then a few trials done in an active warzone. They are warriors, and to suggest their own traditions had to be suspended wouldn't sit well with any of them. Being wise is a whole different subject. And with the clans, their tactics were pretty straight forward, due to their sterilized warfare style. The same could be said for any reinforcements as well. The lack of training together could cause issues, but I don't think it would. They are just too strict on how to fight. It isn't like jump jets get in the way of fights. Most of the omnis didn't have them standard, and in the clans views, removing weapons and sinks wasn't worth the exchange.
Do you really think that losing a pilot or even three would stop the others from wanting in on the next fight? We are talking about a warrior society. They would not only bid, but be proud of being able to take the objective with even less forces. And to be left out just because of a few missing would cause most to demand a trial of refusal as well. It would be an insult to suggest they couldn't do it without a full roster.
And for most units in the IS at least, they tend to have more pilots then machines. So a spare one or two isn't that unusual. And they did have garrison units that would love to move up to a fighting unit. At least initially, they thought only the front line would be fighting. The revolts and such that happened were a shock at first.
I don't want to create my own rules to fix the problems with the rules in the game. I want something stable, so when I go to play with another group, there is no 'by the way. That doesn't work, or this was set up to deal with it' after the fact. I would like to know before playing the shuffle jump do or doesn't add the full jump to the to hit rolls or if it is counted as just the number of hexes moved from the initial point, ie a full circle is 0 or 1 for how far you moved, even if you used a full 8 with a spider. It isn't unreasonable to want to know that before you try, or someone else does.
|
Requiem
03/10/20 04:46 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Clan garrison forces however: lacking sufficient supplies to effectively combat the growing resistance movements on their worlds, these forces chose practicality over honor. Within weeks of the start of the second wave the Diamond Sharks had begun to finally turn a profit.
Within the second wave?
PGCs were assigned to Smoke Jaguar Worlds – “second-line units with inferior equipment, to garrison their conquered territory and free up front-line units for the Third Wave.”
“Reluctantly the ilKhan was forced to agree and approved the usage of PGCs in late August.” (for the other Clans - Fourth Wave)
Thus, as the Jaguars were only Clans to have PGS within any of the Invasion Corridors during the Second Wave Clan Diamond Shark must have been assisting their PGCs.
Quote:
working in Comstar ….. The state in which the HPGs are actually in. It is said most are jury rigged to hell and back,
Considering how important communication is – if the did find an issue with the HPG, given their level of technological understanding as well as the number of technicians they can call upon, wouldn’t they just fix it to Clan Specs?
It would make more sense than allowing a quasi religious order to maintain command of the ONLY communication device on the planet! – as wouldn’t the Clans see ComStar as a Backward Barbarian Techno Religious order that symbolizes / represents everything they were sent to the IS to liberate the people of the IS from?, and in so doing restore the people of the IS to a more civilized society?
How could they (the Clans) put up with individuals who believe they have to mumble chants over technology to keep it working and not want to inflict violence on them for their barbaric ways? …. The Jag’s / Falcons would have just killed them on the spot and just walked in and fixed them to their specs and assigned their own people to operate them – especially within the early waves of the invasion.
Putting their own Caste people in charge of them is the only logical option – from a technological standpoint as well as a military (security) standpoint.
Quote:
The clans should have planned for putting up their own HPG network on their way to Terra.
First, how many extra small space HPG stations would this have required when you are looking at one per captured planet – who within the Clan Home-worlds would have the resources to build these – who has the ships to even consider transport them other than Diamond Sharks Potemkins?
Second, doesn’t the Clans abhor waste – wouldn’t it be easier, quicker and require less resources just to fix ComStars former HPG stations and then use what is available? Put their own people in to run and secure its operations …. Thus kicking out all Comstar flunkies?
Quote:
There were more then a few trials done in an active warzone.
How many extra clansmen died due to these fights?
How long does it take for one member of a team to read the subtle changes in how the compatriot mech moves to understand what their pilot is about to do next? This takes time and a bond of trust ….
Whoever wrote this was never in an infantry unit – you must become part of the team – outsiders / replacement personnel are treated with scorn until they can prove themselves (and this takes time.) It is also a point that has existed since the early Greek units – read up on the Spartans and how new members were treated until they could prove themselves!
If a commander wants to bid in a damaged (smaller unit) to win the bid they will do so – no matter how imprudent it is to do so. Consider how many vehicles, VTOLs, conventional fighters, properly equipped infantry units etc …. Remember, there is a problem with sending in too few – what happens when / if you loose?
Yes – the Clans should have more spare machines than pilots - a fact that should be exploited when IS commando teams come to steal them from where-ever they are being warehoused.
Quote:
I want something stable, so when I go to play with another group, there is no 'by the way.
Full disclose before the game …. Provide a full rundown of any modifiers you would like to bring to the game – the reasons why – and give them time to understand the changes …. Who knows they may have their own changes they would also like to bring to the game …. Or they may even enjoy the changes you have suggested and want to keep them for their future games …. Talk to your opponents and ask them what they think about house rules before a blanket ban is considered by just one group over another, prior to any communication on either side.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 07:13 PM
66.74.60.165
|
So the Jaguars themselves broke the bidding, by having the garrison units in place as they moved inwards. This is very important, as it means they would have some pilots that could be swapped out to front line units. They may only be guarding the ammo being moved, but this is more prestigious then just guarding a world behind the lines.
And don't forget that the clans were duelists in combat. They tried to keep it one on one, so fighting as a group wasn't a big thing, like an RCT is. Also, basic moves would be there, but not exact routines for them. This would negate the need for extended training with the new unit or recruit.
With the clans relying on Comstar for coms, the clans would not have known they would help. So back to the original statement that the clans would have to have the HPG equipment planned out all the way to Terra. Comstar helping only helped to avoid having to bring up more equipment in the supplies later on. Any intel on Comstar before the actual invasion would have painted them as hostile to all except their own.
With this, you do not need a space station to have HPG coms. The black box is very small compared to the HPG network, so size should be smaller with clantech.
There are at least 3 that died during the fights in clan trials. The ones Phelan killed to become not only a warrior, but win the Ward blood name, as well as the one Natasha killed to return to the clans as a star colonel. There were others mentioned in the novels.
Shame is about the main thing that happens when you lose. Though bringing in the last bid is allowed, with great shame and giving up something as well to the person that 'lost' the bid in the first place.
Having more machines is not something that would be exploited. Having more pilots would do far more harm when you steal the machines. This not only embarrasses those that 'lost' the machines, but also means they have less units to actually send into a fight.
Full disclosure normally does not happen. You go to play in a new group, and sitting around telling all the changes removes the first games worth of time. Not going to be happening when everyone wants to play. Game time is limited for most, so things get left behind until something happens that requires a ruling. As most do not write a book on what is changed, they are forgotten to be given out to a new player. And with this, knowing your first game is toast just going over the rule changes, do you think a group would even bother with new people if they have enough to run a game?
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 07:24 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The most notable example of this was the chains of Clan WarShips and message stations setup to allow near real-time communications between the Inner Sphere and Clan Homeworlds for Grand Council meetings to elect Khans. [6]
Not sure where it was said the clan warships don't have HPGs on them, but this is under the title of HPG.
It may not be all of them, but some do have the 50 ton units mounted. Also, there is a few that were 12 ton units mounted on vehicles during the original SL.
|
Cray
03/10/20 07:43 PM
71.47.151.234
|
Quote:
What we have at CGL -- and WizKids, and FASA, before it -- is a bunch of gamers who have no grasp whatsoever of History, or Economics, or the sciences,
Gee, thanks. I'll let my managers know so I can leave the aerospace industry for something safe and unsciencey like burger flipping.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Requiem
03/11/20 08:01 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
So the Jaguars themselves broke the bidding, by having the garrison units in place as they moved inwards.
Yes …. By having more true-born on the front line they hoped they could catch up with the Wolves.
However, Jaguars always treated their PGC poorly (thus they needed to work with the Diamond Sharks to ensure they had the logistics support to remain operational).
The question is however – why didn’t the DCMS spies recognize this problem and why didn’t the DCMS send forces into their rear to take advantage of this situation in a home to disrupt their logistics – thus slowing down their forces on the front line – thus giving the DCMS more time to prepare for more units per world / traps etc in front of their invasion corridor – ie. kill more Clan warriors and convert their wins into a pyrrhic victory!
More bad writing when it was set up for turning the war within DC space into mass battles with many units?
Quote:
And don't forget that the clans were duelists in combat.
Not all the time! How many times did warriors use the uses to change the game from one on one to an all out melee – Aiden Pryde comes to mind …. In such a situation you will have to rely on your team mates to have your back!
Quote:
With the clans relying on Comstar for coms, the clans would not have known they would help.
ComStar adepts become Worker Caste with the conquering of the world. As such they will do as they are told or else face the consequences.
Clan Home world Worker caste people will fix the HPG with or without their assistance so that the warriors will have a reliable and efficient communications system.
Quote:
With the clans relying on Comstar for coms, the clans would not have known they would help.
Disagree – all IS people and organizations are the enemy of their great mission to reform the IS into a Kerensky Style Star League that is called the Clans – doesn’t the Clans Crusader belief go something like, “all must submit to their genetically superior bettors or die!”.
Quote:
The black box is very small compared to the HPG network, so size should be smaller with clantech.
The black box is just a fancy fax machine – it scans in printed pages and then sends them out it DOES NOT allow for real time communication face to face communication that was required in the second ilKhan death when the Khans decided to vote in who would be the next ilKhan would be via video transmission than that of being there physically with the first ilKhan’s death within the IS.
Plus wouldn’t you want to create a system where, as Khan, you could talk with your front line commanders - in real time – as to what is going on in their battles at any point in time?
Consider the importance of real time information within war.
Winston put it best when he stated, “ Truth is so important she must be surrounded by hand-maidens of lies!”
Quote:
Having more machines is not something that would be exploited.
What is important is how many Clan Omni mechs the IS forces can put in their units o the front lines – how they get them is immaterial.
Quote:
It may not be all of them, but some do have the 50 ton units mounted. Also, there is a few that were 12 ton units mounted on vehicles during the original SL.
Can you please provide examples – book and page no / wiki page. Thanks.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/11/20 12:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Hoped to catch up to the wolves?
Best look at that again. By the second wave, the garrison units were buying supplies. This is BEFORE the wolves surged ahead. So the excuse doesn't work.
The grand melee, and a few warriors thinking they could score a big victory during trials of position are the main times the clans would create the chaos for hitting multiple enemy units. It was only when they faced the IS that they would start doing it more often. And only as a response to their enemy doing the hit and fade. So they were duelists.
Still not seeing the time line properly. When preparing for the invasion, the clans would have had to plan for no help at all from the IS. There is no way they could have known that when a planet fell, they would have coms and such from it. The IS could well have scorched the HPG network to avoid the clans from using them, once they figured out, they were going to lose.
Given the hatred for freeborns in the homeworlds, the barbarians in the IS would be considered even worse. The idea that their pet surats were smarter should have them thinking they would have to kill a lot of the IS before they realized the clans 'superior' warriors. And to plan a war based on local cooperation is just asking to fail.
The black box is far more then a fax machine. Maybe the fact that it sends signals light years in minutes/months isn't sinking in. A light year is how far light travels in the 365 day year of Terra. That means the signal is moving far faster then light.
But this isn't what was being presented. The fact that the HPG doesn't have to be this radar telescope sized monstrosity. It can be much smaller. And there was models made for jumpships/warships, and during a conversation with Ulric, Phelan found out the Dire Wolf had one. So there are a few places that say warships had HPGs build into them.
The weight and uses of an HPG is under then Hyperpulse Generator section in the wiki.
And oddly enough, it does have the black box in there, saying it became the reliable source of coms after the destruction of the normal HPG network.
Edited by ghostrider (03/11/20 12:50 PM)
|
Requiem
03/11/20 04:21 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Hoped to catch up to the wolves?
Why so literal? ……. surge ahead then – by utilizing the maximum of their available true-born forces.
Quote:
So they were duelists.
…. And how many would create chaos during a Trial of Position?
There is no definitive information this tactic as not used even once – and what about Clan Wolverine when they fought to leave the Kerensky Cluster – Clan Widomaker – prior to their absorption Wolves and Widowmaker Trials of Possessions combat “skirted the rules of Combat” (Wiki – Clan Wolf) – so, what does this mean – but chaos on the battlefield ….. so it is not like they are they unable or unwilling to use the tactic when they believe it is in their best interest to do so.
Quote:
When preparing for the invasion, the clans would have had to plan for no help at all from the IS.
There is no plan for any help from any IS state, institution, or person.
There is however a plan to use what is available to assist with their invasion - to that end ….. if the Inner Sphere’s working communications, military industrial complexes and food production facilities can be used to alleviate the strain upon their current Logistics (time and resources to transport everything needed from the Kerensky Cluster to the IS – 6 months plus) then they should do so.
That said ….
- reconfiguring IS ComStar HPG facilities would be a far more easier (and an efficient use of resources) project than that of building thousands of HPG stations (one per world) – there is the issue that the Clans DO NOT have the resources for such an undertaking to be considered as well.
The existence of ComStar and their available and working HPG network as well as the treaty the IS Houses have with regards to these facilities as being outside of combat to the point where no one would dare harm such a station must have been within Wolf’s Dragoons first reconnaissance missive to the Grand Council – a point every Clan would have jumped on and factored into their invasion plans from that point onward ……. When a world was captured there would be a working HPG station – the Houses would not destroy it and ComStar would never order their acolytes’ to destroy it – it was just an ingrained fact within all the IS forces and people as to the sanctity of these facilities ……
Quote:
And to plan a war based on local cooperation is just asking to fail.
This is Crusader philosophy – a sentiment that Crusader Clans may believe – thus they may need a vast workforce from the Clan Home Worlds to ensure the appropriate running of all vital industries within the IS.
However, it is not a Warden sentiment / philosophy – they may believe that they can obtain assistance when it is explained to them that the Clans are the descendants of the SLDF and they are there to liberate them from their barbarian ways and bring them into a better life under the stewardship of their new Clan True-born Overlords.
Quote:
The black box is far more then a fax machine.
Sorry to say but yes it is – it can only send text messages – it CANNOT send video messages, so it is little better than a text message / fax machine than can send messages at incredible speeds and over vast distances – Remember however these messages are incredibly slow when compared to that of the HPG relay station – plus HPG relay stations can be set up for real time communication a point that Black boxes can never achieve within this era.
How many Khans / Generals (even now) demand the use of real time communications – how many times are we shown government officials watching a real time raids by their special forces?
If black boxes became a reliable source of communications, after the destruction of the normal HPG network, this would mean that many worlds had access to them – also communications does not mean the volume a HPG station can send it could be just the necessities of single government communicates sent in text form.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/11/20 09:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Still not getting the time line right. The wolves did not get ahead or surge or anything of the sort in wave one. Has the alt really caused a complete failure of remembering what canon has done? So saying the Jaguars were using garrison troops by wave two counters the entire idea of using the PGCs to catch up. There was no need to catch up at this point.
Where did I say that the clans didn't participate in chaos of engaging more then one target? I said that they were duelists. There were times when a few broke this taboo, but for the most part, they did not need to worry about each others moves, as they did not work as a unit like an RCT or even an IS lance did.
If you wanted an example, maybe using something that wasn't so obscure as the Wolverines, but maybe the wolves in a few battles where Natasha was involved. Badges were taken in lei of the one on one fights. That is something people would remember. Also the fact that the entire circle of equals engaged in taking out the forces involved in the trial that killed Nicholas.
Efficiency dictates you will use ComStar Facilities – or have the Clans given up on the idea of waste.
There is no plan for any help from any IS state, institution, or person.
So which statement is true for the planning of the invasion and bringing in their own HPGs? Would you be foolish to believe that the Comstar run ones would not sabotage your coms or send a copy to the IS forces? I am saying straight up, that when planning the invasion, the clans would have brought as many HPGs as needed to run to Terra. For some reason, it seems you disagree with this. Some how them magically knew comstar would help them along before they even got into the periphery.
When a world was captured there would be a working HPG station – the Houses would not destroy it and ComStar would never order their acolytes’ to destroy it
This is wrong. If they suspected the clans were going to take out comstar and the IS, you bet they would destroy the network to slow down the clan advance. Only when it was shown that the clans possessed their own systems, would it have been taken off the table. It would not slow down the clans like it would be suspected.
I am starting to think something other then your own 'perfect' ideas just doesn't register. The black boxes sent out messages faster then light speed. So they were limited to paper recordings, which shouldn't really be that hard to increase to use monitors to avoid having to print or feed paper into it.
But the fact it DOES send the message faster then light is the point here. At light speed, it would take 30 YEARS to reach the distance of a single jump. The ability to make something better lies within them. This should have been exploited far beyond just bypassing comstar/wob HPG network. It should have been set up for a new network, or at least a larger system. They did improve the speed of the messages, as stated when the FS got the message Luthien would be attacked. Why did this not get improved to the point of making their own little listening posts that could send a larger list of messages?
|
Requiem
03/12/20 03:36 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Still not getting the time line right.
What is so hard to understand? The Jaguars wanted to rig the game (with the complicity of their ilKhan) from word one - so they put their PGCs into garrison positions – they then uses their maximum True-born forces, as the plan went, so that they could pull ahead of all the other Clans (especially the Wolves) so that they could become the ilClan in the future!
Ie cheat to win!
Quote:
I said that they were duelists.
…. If they are primarily duelists then their piloting / gunnery should reflect this …..
In the event of a grand melee their piloting / gunnery should drop to reflect their inability to fight in such a campaign ….
also as they usually fight for small periods of time (due to the size of Circle of Equals) any campaign that goes over a certain time frame then there should be a second penalty to their piloting / gunnery
Quote:
Efficiency dictates you will use ComStar Facilities – or have the Clans given up on the idea of waste.
There is no plan for any help from any IS state, institution, or person.
The Clans take over a planet ….
They send in their Worker Caste free-borns into the ComStar HPG Facility … they advise the Comstar personnel they are now Worker Caste for their clan and must do as they are told ….. if they refuse they are either killed outright or thrown out of the HPG facility and send to something productive – digging ditches? …… if they accept they are now Worker Caste they will be given menial tasks under the supervision until they have proven their loyalty to the Clan.
The Clan Worker Caste members then fix the HPG to their specs and they run it ……
What is so difficult to understand?
Quote:
When a world was captured there would be a working HPG station – the Houses would not destroy it and ComStar would never order their acolytes’ to destroy it
Where is the proof of any HPG facility that was destroyed between when the Clans first invaded and when Focht formed an agreement with them – that they would assist in managing the worlds for the Clans?
Can’t think of even one …… so no they (IS forces) did not destroy HPGs
Quote:
Black Boxes
Limitations –
Text message only
One message at a time
Range
Time taken to receive the message (in comparison to ComStar HPG Systems)
Multimedia
Massive amounts of messages in one hit
Far greater Range
Very short period of time
If set up with two HPGs – one to receive one to send per world you can talk over massive distances near instantaneously.
What is there to understand? And yes there are different models that evolve over time with more functions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/12/20 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The question is, would the other clans not call out the Jaguars for breaking their bid? They are a warrior society, and doing this would suggest the Jaguars could not perform like the other clans. It would insult the Jaguar warriors as well as every other clan.
I can agree that there should be penalties for lengthy invasions, but unless you are using something like Mechforce, I don't see where it makes an impact on the tabletop game. I could see some random faults happening from a lack of repair parts for simple things like seals for joints, and even glitches in things, like an engine heat spike or weapon failing to fire properly. I guess it just depends on how it is presented
So far, I have stated the clans would have to plan for no help in the IS. The answer given to this is that comstar is helping them. It seems the ability to see that the clans would have HPGs ready to install isn't being registered. What does Comstar helping run the coms have to do with the clans having to prepare for having to build/make their own before they get to the IS? The clans did not plan for putting up HPGs after they got to the IS. They did it BEFORE they left the home worlds. This is an answer to the statement:
Any communication within the Inner Sphere and to this facility, located at their entry point, is sent via a ComStar Facility – as every conquered world’s ComStar HPH facility would now be controlled / monitored by a Clan Technician(s) when they need to dispatch a message to their Khan on the front Lines or to their CIC located on Strana Mechty.
Can’t think of even one …… so no they (IS forces) did not destroy HPGs
Changing the subject to did not, from would not. The IS should have taken down a few of the HPG stations, even if it was nothing more then power source or something else that could be fixed. Yet they didn't. Comstar demanding payment for such a thing would have shown their hands far earlier then it did in canon that they were helping the clans.
The premise. They knew of the damage, but not of the invaders.
The fact that the Black boxes were mini HPGs isn't sinking in. As found, they were limited to amount that could be sent. And one message is not really correct. You could chain a bunch of messages to be sent out, by feeding several pages into the system at once. Otherwise it is useless to send out detailed plans for an attack.
Range is limited?
How is that? The message from Luthien would reach New Avalon. Speed is, but not range.
And the idea that the FC did NOT use this tech to even start to make their own back up HPGs is the point. A fax machine can be made into a modem and more. Simply hooking up to a memory system would allow you to send more, and receive more. No printing needed.
So just having a small one page sending fax machine is BS, as it should have lead to the HPG network replacement with greater speeds and amount sent/received. And yet, they only really said they were used during the HPG black out in the future. Sounds like a giant hole in the game.
And the FC had to build some of them in order to have them sent to units and worlds. I doubt a single cache would have enough to cover that many. So they had some knowledge of the inner workings.
|
Requiem
03/12/20 05:29 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Quote:
…..would the other clans not call out the Jaguars for breaking their bid?
Smoke Jaguars – Start of Third Wave - deployment of PGCs.
Jade Falcons – End of their third wave – deployment of PGCs.
Ghost Bears - Earliest PGC note is 3057.
Wolves – Wave 4 - August – deployment of PGCs.
The Jaguars used the ilKhan position for their own benefit – and when it became common knowledge the other clans followed suit – the real issue however is Provisional Garrison Clusters themselves ….
Third line units – who’s only duties were to “hold rear areas, perform cleanup tasks too dishonorable for front line or second line Clusters, or hold minor objectives.”
In addition to this is their numbers …. None of the invading Clans had them in any significant numbers that they could affect the garrison situation on more than three - four worlds – so the idea that they made a difference to the invasion is ludicrous.
Then there is the issue of timing …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Provisional_Garrison_Cluster
“During Operation REVIVAL the Jade Falcons, Ghost Bears, and Smoke Jaguars failed to bring PGCs with them as part of their toumans.”
Question if they failed to bring them ….
Departed Clan Space – Mid June 3049
Periphery Action – Ended January 3050
Wave 1 – Early March 3050
Wave 2 – May
Wave 3 - July
Wave 4 – Ended August
November – Tyra Miraborg
Year of “Peace”
October 3051 – Fifth Wave
If it takes six months travel time from the Kerensky Cluster to the IS and at least one month preparation time to arrange for transport / logistics etc the earliest time each clan could have requested their PGCs is ….
Jaguars – being there before the third wave (June) – is November / December 3049 (Whilst they were still travelling to the IS - very start of the Periphery Campaign)
Falcons / Wolves – July / August – they must have requested them December / January (during the Periphery action)
However it is noted that every Clan didn’t realize they they were having trouble in their rear until the end of the First Wave / during the second wave (March / April) – thus if this is that case the earliest they could have arrived is October / November.
And if they didn’t request their (Falcon / Wolf / Bear) PGCs until the arrival of the Jaguars within the IS (June) the earliest they could have arrived was late December 3050 / early January 3051 – during the year of peace.
There is a problem here with regards to timing …..
As for calling out the Jaguars hypocrisy – no one cared they just sent for their own and if the ilKhan complained they just noted the Jaguars were using theirs so why can’t we also use ours at the same time - argument?
Quote:
I don't see where it makes an impact on the tabletop game.
Starting the battle the two competitors must come to an agreement s to how long it took for the battle to start – did the clans just drop in and your forces immediately formed a defensive position or did their forces have to hunt the IS forces down – what many do not realize is that with the Clan Invasions progressing from wave to wave there must be two maps one for the entire world and the second for the individual battles – as time moves IS generals must have realized that the Clans are not geared up for lengthy battles that IS forces are capable of fighting (battles lasting months even years on the same world) of there must be penalties for the Clan forces …. As IS Generals drag out the battle Clan warriors must have piloting / gunnery penalties applied to which the iS forces do not as they are trained for lengthy battles … plus the Clans do not have logistical vehicles in the filed, only their Dropships – thus these must also be taken into consideration.
IS infantry are adept at taking enemy dropships and as such always assign a force to protect them and they also keep them buttoned up tight when not required to be taking on / removing cargo et al – can the same be said for the clans when they have never fought at battle like this in their entire history? Has anyone ever gone after a dropship? As you said they are duelists they are not brigands to invade and take over a dropship unless it is part of the bid.
Another IS tactic that was never used during the invasion when it should have been – how much technology could they have taken from the clans if the primary target was shifted from engaging the Clans forces to taking their Dropships?
Plus with this tactic being utilized again and again how many bids would have to increased to include a security unit for their dropships – and how many True-born warriors would bristle at the order of being placed on sentry duty? (How many circle of equals would be fought due to this order alone – dissention in the Clan ranks?)
Someone didn’t think through all the different scenarios the IS would use to win!
Also with the removal of their Dropships – regular maintenance in the field evaporates – any problems with their Vehicles will no longer be able to be fixed! Where-as the IS have teams and mobile repair gantries to perform their maintenance in the field.
Quote:
comstar is helping them.
ComStar contacted the Clans during the Periphery campaign and failed to tell the house units – Focht met with them in secret (Remember Focht was once from House Steiner – so why he didn’t warn them of this oncoming threat will one day be needed to discussed).
However, from the Clans point of view they will need to take control of every HPG station they capture – communication and information security within the OZ – so why would ComStar consider just giving over their HPGs to the enemy? Free upgrade of technology where their people would assist in running the new HPG station?
Quote:
The clans did not plan for putting up HPGs after they got to the IS. They did it BEFORE they left the home worlds. This is an answer to the statement:
Resources – every clan will need 200+ HPGs – one per world to reach Terra – where is the resources coming for this – where are the dropsips coming for these – where are the jumpships coming for these? Every six months of the invasion you will need 60 (approx) HPGs being sent from the Clan Home Worlds ….
Whereas if you just retrofit ComStar’s existing facilities resource allocation / time to build will be considerably less – efficiency in resource allocation?
Quote:
The IS should have taken down a few of the HPG stations, even if it was nothing more then power source or something else that could be fixed.
First you would need ComStar’s OK before you did this as the last time this occurred ComStar Interdicted Fed-Suns for their fake attack – can you risk another interdiction with the clans attacking at the same time?
There is no front line commander who could give this oder within the IS without having ComStar’s blessing in the first place.
It is just completely implausible an IS commander would order this. As for ComStar giving up their HPGs to the Clans so that they can maintain OZ communication – this too is highly unlikely, this is why Comstar should have been part of the War almost from the start they should have assisted the IS in their fight against the Invaders from the beginning.
Again the writing given is again a little too fanciful to be considered realistic.
Quote:
The fact that the Black boxes were mini HPGs isn't sinking in.
I agree ….
What do you call many messages being sent out all at the same time by feeding the pages in one after the other – One Message!
To make Black Box technology effective you need to have them in the OZ – the message is sent out to a local world that is still held by IS forces – the IS forces then use ComStar HPG services to get it to their GHQ – so that the message can be considered in a timely manner.
As for changing the Black Box – read the different CANON models available or am I allowed to create Alt. Universe versions of them now, so that by 3060 they will be able to communicate in real time via video hook up with a partner Black Box within a 50 light year radius?
In my opinion, the entire Black Box technology within the game was mismanaged from the get go – like so many other ideas that should have been explored and used – technology was never thought through logically from one era to the next.
With the coming of the Clans and ComStars communication Blackout – the issues must be raised ….
1. Why more balk boxes were not put into the field;
2. If Comstar facilities were being taken by the invading forces (a known fact by the loss of communications within the Clan OZ) why weren’t they angry over their loss – why didn’t they use their ComGuards – everyone knew of their existence – their stations are being lost just as each of the Houses Worlds and people are being lost and yet they are not angry they are not sending in their forces to battle the invaders to retrieve their lost property – they are just sitting on their hands and doing nothing.
From a House Lords position this must have been very perplexing as to why the Comstar was doing nothing to get their HPG stations and their people back – why didn’t any of the House Lords call in their ComStar Representative and ask them point blank what they were going to do to get their people back – they had 50 Regiments of Mechs that could have been put in the front line or in the rear and would have been of invaluable help to the inner sphere forces battling the Clans.
By doing nothing – their silence is the thunderous! In this matter.
and by Focht doing nothing (when he was once a Steiner Lord) this seems to be another issue that does not make any sense whatsoever - he could have warned house Steiner at the very least - they could have been prepared for the invasion!
Again more poor writing to explain what is going on?
Where were the vast R&D teams coming up with new tech? where was the IS Skunk Works and where were their “Kelly” Johnson – Aeronautical engineer genius …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
03/13/20 04:59 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Unfortunately when it comes to Replacement Supplies Logistics for both the Clans and the IS units this becomes quite impossible to determine:-
Factory types as well as their annual production numbers;
Drop-ship Types (Cargo Capacity) and Jump-ship Types as well as their numbers;
All preclude any insightful attempt at making a rational determination.
Thus the only course of action is the irrational – each GM must make a decision for their group as to available numbers as well as their manifest cargo and additional crew from Non-warrior Castes that have been deemed important for the ongoing mission – first to become the ilClan and then to reform the Star League under a Clan Banner.
Even when only knowing all the Officer Academies within the IS graduation class numbers can only be guessed at – though the real problem lies in the enlisted personnel’s boot camps – no attempt has been made to clearly define their location r the number of people who are assigned to them on a regular basis.
The only constant is that every world would have their own form of boot camp in an attempt to form that worlds militia forces – to which the local lord then purchases the necessary weapons and vehicles for them based upon how wealthy the lord is as well as how paranoid they are when the subject of invasion is brought up.
Then there is the issue of timing – unlike the Clans and their Sibko – where a child is born in an iron wormb and must go through years of natural development to become a warrior (thus fixing any numbers at a constant amount for a minimum of 16-20 years) The IS forces can increases their non-officer corps numbers (Vehicle crew – armor, conventional fighter, infantry) within the span of one year / Officer Corps with specialist roles such as Mech Warrior / Aerospace fighter and Warship personnel will take longer (though no more than about 2 to 3 years when you consider Hanse Davion’s experimental training units prior to the 4th SW) and these individuals could also be trained quicker (consider the Amaris Civil War and how quickly Kerensky taught his units such as the Lyran Patriots who became part of his reconnaissance units.)
Thus we can only say
Initially – the Clans have the Technological edge – they however do not have the numbers for a war of attrition – their fighting style is that of the Blitzkrieg (Lightning war) – anything else such as protracted war is completely against their norm -
Their lack of support vehicles and personnel for a protracted war completely puts them at a disadvantage as they will need to move their drop-ships constantly in order to support their ground forces (including medical, logistical and technical) – which will make their drop-ships a primary target upon any battlefield – a point they have never been trained for.
In addition the Clans have complete lack of understanding when it comes to fighting insurgents as well as providing an adequate security force for any garrison – they may be able to capture worlds but there is no way they can hold them form the ravagers of a protracted insurgent war – in addition their PGCs are too few and too poorly maintained to adequately put up a defense against any serious IS relief force.
Lastly is the issue of what happens when an individual from a Closed Totalitarian society is introduced to an open liberal society such as the IS? What happens when they are attacked by IS psy-ops units – they do not have the training to recognize when their values are being subverted.
The issue of warships however must be worked out in advance – either the IS have them also or you will have an atomic war in space – these are the only two scenarios open.
Initially the IS have numbers and they have vehicles – though their mechs and aerospace fighters can be considered to be subpar - however IS forces can steal and they can reverse engineer, so any advantage the Clans have technologically will be quickly negated within a span of 10 -15 years (this could even be less!).
The IS can fight a war of attrition – they can negate the clans Blitzkrieg tactics – they can use insurgent war tactics to reduce their garrison numbers quickly – they can come together quickly and reform the star league far quicker than that of the Canon writings – they can unleash warfare on a scale the Clans have never even considered – even with a Trial of absorption or annihilation they have no idea the scale of destruction the IS is willing to inflict.
There are just too many holes within the current history that have never been explained fully!
The history as written has yet to come anywhere near as close as it should be to accurately reflect this war and all its dimensions – as is it is just too bland and one dimensional to be considered a viable historical document.
In my opinion:- The re-write of af all history from 3039 is a required necessity for the game to remain and to expand – less it be considered just a child’s game for the foreseeable future!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 125 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 12884
|
|
|
|
|
|
|