Requiem
03/07/20 04:36 PM
101.185.82.147
|
For particular points within the history numbers can be used to determine events, such as ….
Why is there such a disparity between the Clans populations? The Number of Maturation Chambers Available and the number of washouts per sibko to maintain each Clan Individual Touman Size?
Jade Falcon - Population (Clan Space): 116,264,000 (3060) - Clusters: 47 – (Population / Cluster in millions and rounded up - 2.5)
Star Adder - Population (Clan Space): 108,695,000 (3060) – (Nt. Clan Burrock joined Star Adder in 3059 thus this figure is two clans added together at this stage) - Clusters: 52 (P/C: 2.1)
Ice Hellion - Population (Clan Space): 101,309,000 (3060) - Clusters: 21 (P/C: 4.8)
Hell’s Horses - Population (Clan Space): 95,317,000 (3060) - Clusters: 37 (P/C: 2.6)
Snow Raven - Population (Clan Space): 94,199,000 (3060) - Clusters: 26 (P/C: 3.6)
Fire Mandrill - Population (Clan Space): 81,719,000 (3060) - Clusters: 30 (P/C: 2.7)
Coyote - Population (Clan Space): 73,360,000 (3060) - Clusters: 35 (P/C: 2.1)
Diamond Shark - Population (Clan Space): 67,859,000 (3060) - Clusters: 33 (P/C: 2.1)
Goliath Scorpion - Population (Clan space): 67,238,000 (3060) - Clusters: 24 (P/C: 2.8)
Cloud Cobra - Population (Clan Space): 58,374,000 (3060) - Clusters: 22 (P/C: 2.7)
Steel Viper - Population (Clan Space): 57,275,000 (3060) - Clusters: 39 (P/C: 1.5)
Ghost Bear - Population (Clan Space): 24,294,000 (3060) - Clusters: 58 (P/C: 0.5)
Nova Cats – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 50+
Wolf – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 40
Blood Spirit – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 45
Smoke Jaguar – Unknown Population – Clusters: Approx. 70+
There are statistical anomalies –
Ghost Bear – very low population however very high number of Clusters – Very high number within the Trial of Position?
Ice Hellion – very high population however very low number of Clusters – Very low number within the Trial of Position?
However, there is a slight correlation between the overall population size and their individual military size – Remove Ice Hellion, Snow Raven, Steel Viper and Ghost Bear – Low (2,100,000) to High (2,800,000) people per cluster.
Quote:
The Grand Council was left to absorb and debate what had happened in the preceding months during their meeting on 27 April. Due to their treachery in siding with the Inner Sphere, Khan N'Buta of Clan Star Adder called for the Nova Cats to be Annihilated, though the Wardens (led by Clan Ghost Bear) blocked that vote. Instead, Khan Ward of Clan Wolf called for their Abjuration, which achieved the necessary four-fifths majority, and the Nova Cats were given a month to evacuate their Clan holdings…… Nova Cat forces held off attacking Crusader forces to allow time for their civilian castes to escape
Assumption:- Use the above maximum of 2,800,000 people per cluster
Then Nova Cat – approx. 140,000,000 people
Then Wolves – approx. 112,000,000 people
With a Leviathan Heavy Transport 250,000 people
Clan Nova Cat required 560 ships (max. approx.)
and Ghost Bears required 100 ships
and what about the Snow Ravens, they will require 380 Ships
and what about the Wolves, they will require 448 ships (max. approx.)
and what about the Jade Falcons, they will require 465 ships
Can someone explain where all these Leviathans came from? (need a maximum of 1,955 Leviathan ships (approx.))
Or did they just leave the majority of their people to their fate back in the Kerensky Cluster?
Sibko and True Born Numbers via Iron Wombs
Is the reverse of this also true?
Clan Ghost Bears have the smallest number of Iron Wombs – thus the smallest number of Sibkos however they have the highest number of graduates – very few wash out to affect the overall population of the Clan. (Those that become warriors the majority (all) die in combat – growth rate of population is nearly all freeborn)
However Clan Jade Falcon have a high wash out rate from the number of sibko’s they do have – growth rate therefore is from the high number of previous True-borns and free-borns who go on to have children (thus exponentially increasing their overall size over time.)
So how can you workout each clans approximate sibko numbers per year per Clan – given a fixed attrition rate within the Clan Home Worlds per year? – and then they will have to increase this number of graduates to meet the number of deaths within the IS per year – however even if this increase was started in 3050 it will take a further 20 years before each clan can actually receive the dividends in this change in policy (3070 minimum). So does any of the Clans to more Free-born within their Touman to make up for number of warriors lost?
As these sibko graduate numbers are required to determine replacement numbers within the IS – when considering each Clans Loss Depletion Report (Butcher’s Bill), to determine number of available clusters at any given period of time.
The is also true for the IS – How many graduates come out of each Houses Academies per year to fill the Officer Corp (and how many of these are represented within the ‘MechWarrior Corp), and how many go through basic training per year to fill all the other important functions (including infantry positions)?
Then there is the question of production numbers for every military industrial complex (IS and Clan) – how many Mechs, elemental suits, aerospace fighters are produced per year to understand the number of units each state / Clan has as well as the number of replacement ‘Mechs per year are received per unit (however some have better relationships with the procurement dept. than others)?
Ie. Given Ghost Bears small population number their ability to manufacture vast amounts of new material should be considered to be low compared to that of the Jade Falcons who has a high population.
Logistics numbers for both Clan and IS units – there is no way to determine these numbers! All we can do is guess (except for warship numbers that is)
Also how do these numbers change over time with building new lines / loosing lines to battle damage etc.
How can anyone work these out without making a massive amount of assumptions?
How can you effectively work out each House’s / Clan’s production output per year given all their military industrial complex and how they change per year with the allocation of available resources?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
03/07/20 04:47 PM
70.118.172.64
|
Have you thought about applying for a job with CGL?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 01:07 AM
101.185.82.147
|
How droll Karagin .....
Question – How can we truly understand the History of the Inner Sphere is we do understand the quantifiable nature of every battle (or at least every major battle) and every military industrial (logistics) and each units TO&E at every point in time as well as every academy (sibko) graduating class - and the accumulated affect each has upon the whole?
There are no figures for warriors lost / warriors gained – even if it for each Clan’s invasion corridor wave.
As how do we get from the 20 year Update TO&E for each House (set in 3050) to that of all the House Books now set in 3062? Fow how does the Fed Com – go from nearly 280 Regiments down to something like 140-160 Regiments when the DC only lost about 10 in the same time period?
There are vivid descriptions of how each Inner Sphere Unit was smashed upon the alter of war by the Clans – and yet for the Clans this remains completely elusive – though it is strange that for the majority of the invasion the Clans are written from the point of view that they never succumbed a single casualty during their battles against the Inner Sphere forces – which is highly unbelievable.
Thus all we have is but an opinion as to what is transcribing and not what is actually transcribing when we have no quantifiable information.
Thus we have once more an unbelievable setting for the entire war which leads to the entire history thereafter as being a subjective issue.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
csadn
03/08/20 01:26 AM
50.53.22.4
|
What we have at CGL -- and WizKids, and FASA, before it -- is a bunch of gamers who have no grasp whatsoever of History, or Economics, or the sciences, or much of anything practical; and so they have painted themselves into more corners than the curb-maintenance team at the Nurburgring.
I know, first-hand -- I had to deal with their ignorance when _Crimson Skies_ was a Going Concern.
Do not look for Logic, or Reason, in the sourcebooks -- know that they exist for one, and only one reason: To vacuum money out of the pockets of the fandom.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
|
Karagin
03/08/20 11:17 AM
70.118.172.64
|
Quote:
How droll Karagin .....
Not droll, I think you would do some good working for them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 05:51 PM
101.185.82.147
|
How can you create both logistics (from single item ‘Mech / Fighter / Elemental to the space parts market – keeping all forces in the field) and Replacement Personnel Numbers for both the Clans and the IS that can be considered realistic and believable and that can also change over time to reflect the changing demand from the battlefield for new products? .... and, in so doing, create a means of quantifying the overall invasion – and allowing each side to make changes to history as required.
In the absence of battling every battle ever fought within the Clan’s Invasion there is no way of creating an accurate picture of what is going on – however there should be a way to take your one Clan / IS unit and fight from an initial point to the conclusion of the story – by factoring in replacement logistics and personnel and then to create a narrative that can be considered believable as to what is occurring around your unit.
The only approach, I can suggest, therefore is the narrowing the game’s units for the supply / resupply of individual units according to the overarching story line.
So if the story calls for damaged units they must start with the level of damage as indicated ....
On a side note, however, how does a Clan request supplies from their holdings within the Kerensky Cluster? As I realised there is nothing written as to this process – as well as how each Clan within Kerensky Cluster Communicates with their Front Line Units – What we know is that there is a series of HPG Ships situated along the Exodus Road with a Logistics space station situated at its end within the Deep Periphery.
Any message received within the Deep Periphery therefore has two options (due to security reasons) ...
• A pony express of the information via ship to and from the Inner Sphere, to the space station itself where a message can be sent and received (Using their Logistics Merchant Ships or one of their Warships). However given the time this would take it would be highly unbelievable – timely and accurate information would be required both within Clan Space and that of the IS Invasion units.
• Each Clan owns and operates small HPG space station facilities that are able to tap into an extended series of HPG stations from the entry point of their invasion back to the deep Periphery logistics space station and from there back to the Kerensky Cluster, Strana Mechty and the Hall of Khans (Where each Clan operates and maintains their own CIC facility.)
Any communication within the Inner Sphere and to this facility, located at their entry point, is sent via a ComStar Facility – as every conquered world’s ComStar HPH facility would now be controlled / monitored by a Clan Technician(s) when they need to dispatch a message to their Khan on the front Lines or to their CIC located on Strana Mechty.
<Note: There needs to be a change to the exodus Road HPG Ships – rather than ships they should be small space stations that have been mass produced, and as such not only cover the distance along the Exodus Way but also extend to the top of every invasion corridor – and from there they use IS technology for their communication needs.>
Returning to the topic at hand ....
However for the initial Clan Invasion they should have 100% maintenance as well as the parts required to maintain / replace damaged ‘Mech, Elementals and Aerospace units until such a time as their supply ships can be attacked / captured by IS forces and from then on notes must be placed as to any shortage of parts / consumables etc and implemented within the units being dispatched.
Thus from a logistics point of view within my game setting every January and June new Logistics ships will arrive at the Deep Periphery Logistics Facility where by each Clan will be requested to collect their logistics and disseminate it as required to either their hidden supply bases within the Deep Periphery or directly to their forces within the IS (based upon each clans logistical schedule – the most important front line units first and the Garrison Units last or starting at the rear periphery worlds and moving along a planet by planet drop from the rear to the most forward. Just remember as each invasion corridor increases so too does the time taken for supplies to reach the front line. Thus without an adequate number of Merchantmen vessels some Clans may find themselves running low at times with regards to their logistical requirements as the war progresses, thus forcing those with a small number of merchant ships to slow / cease operations due to a lack of supplies.
Clan Wolf – 82 jumpships; 242 dropships – shouldn’t have great deal of issues with logistics;
Jade Falcon – 12 jumpships; 140 dropships – Will have mass problems with Logistics and will require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Ghost Bears - 27 Jumpships - Problems with Logistics may arise toward the fourth / fifth wave and may require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Smoke Jaguars - 38 Jumpships - Problems with Logistics may arise toward the fourth / fifth wave and may require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Steel Vipers 13 Jumpships - Will have mass problems with Logistics and will require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
Nova Cats 23 Jumpships - Problems with Logistics may arise toward the fourth / fifth wave and may require assistance from Diamond Shark as their Invasion Corridor increases in size;
<Unless each Clan requests more Jump-ships from their Holdings within the Kerensky Cluster to assist with Logistical Requirements. More Targets for my Fenrir Units!>
Given the lack of information regarding Clan Logistics this decision therefore must be made by the Games GM or written into the Historical narrative that such a situation is occurring for certain Clan’s.
There could also be another solution – Clan Diamond Shark – they could be allowed within all Invasion Corridors to supplement each individual Clans Merchant Fleet with their own thus reducing the time for supplies to arrive on the front lines. And in so doing each Invasion Clan will now be reliant upon Diamond Shark for their Logistics whist fighting against the IS.
However the main issue for the Clans is replacement personnel ....
Non-Warrior Caste Members should not be problem - as they can just dispatch as many as required from the Kerensky Cluster each January and June and to arrive in the IS each subsequent June and January. <ie. Those that have been killed, kidnapped, or defected.>
The biggest issue therefore for the Invading Clans must be the Warrior replacement numbers being sent to their Deep Periphery final testing facilities where each group will be allowed to undertake final training and their Trial of Position before being sent to reinforce an appropriate Invasion Unit ....
So how to work out the numbers?
Given each Clan entered into the IS with the following numbers .....
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters;
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters;
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries)
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries)
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries)
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries)
Reinforcement numbers will be based upon a simple percentage figure and a single roll of a d6 to keep things interesting ….
My Home Rule regarding reinforcement numbers every 6 months for a January / June Graduation.
<Remember to add time for them to be transported to their new unit and to be placed with their new unit.>
<Khans may accelerate this at any time if they are desperate for warriors.>
<These numbers will be fairly constant from 3050 to 3067-8 where some Khans may have changed the number of available sikos so as to have more warriors within the IS or they may change the requirements for graduation – GM to determine any change to original numbers.>
Example:
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters;
Start with a base figure 10% then add on my above P/C figure of 2.5 thus for the Jade Falcons their base replacement number 12.5% p.a. of the original number they brought into the IS (rounded up)
Base Number at 12.5% would therefore be ….. for Clan Jade Falcon for True-Born Warriors
MechWarriors………………122 p.a. (every six months 61)
Elementals………………….280 p.a. (every six months 140)
Aerospace Pilots……………73 p.a. (every six months 37-8)
However to keep things interesting I believe a modifier should be allowed …roll 1D6
Roll of 6 …. Add 2% …..Base Number now 14.5%
Roll of 5 …. Add 1% …..Base Number now 13.5%
Roll of 3 and 4 …. Remain at 12.5%
Roll of 2 …. Less 1% …..Base Number now 11.5%
Roll of 1 …. Less 2% …..Base Number now 10.5%
This 1D6 roll should be rolled independently for each category – MechWarrior, Elemental and Aerospace Pilot
As for the number of Free-Born / Solhama warriors, depending on each Clans attitude towards them, their replacement numbers will be the True-born Figure divided by 10 (round down)
MechWarriors………………12 p.a. (every six months 6)
Elementals………………….28 p.a. (every six months 14)
Aerospace Pilots……………7 p.a. (every six months 3-4)
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 05:58 PM
101.185.82.147
|
As for individual Units within the Overall Touman – look at how many you home unit lost in the battle and extrapolate it across for all units? And then just keep a running tally of individuals lost for each six months of warfare - GM can then assign replacement personnel as and when they arrive within the invasion corridor <world they are operating from – as a Garrison unit or front line unit>.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/08/20 05:59 PM)
|
ghostrider
03/08/20 07:11 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The black hole of canon bashing is getting bigger.
Now the demand for hard numbers comes about, as it creates even more issues as there is no POSSIBLE way, they could account for everything. The entire show of numbers for the invasion forces can not be right. Unless that is the bid for the invasion, and not all ships that are part of moving supplies.
The clans can order parts when ever they want, and not have to use comstar at all. The HPGs on their ships would circumvent that. Also, why does it have to be 6 months to order? They could order every week, and get the part in the IS.
Now a question to really throw a wrech into the complaint. WHAT type of dropships and jumpships were used for the numbers that were provided? The Falcons using 12 jumpships with the warships suggests they only used Monoliths or something of that size. This would mean they could not spread out quickly, as the Wolves numerous jumpships and dropships suggest they use smaller ones to move their units. So Overlord IIC might be the Falcons main ship, but might not be the Wolves main ships..
But this is the start of more issues. Once in print, then the argument turns to not allowing GMs to do anything creative with the game. So hard numbers is nothing more then a club to beat the drum of canon is wrong.
Everyone knows there are issues with the game. Most just don't care much as the fluff is just that. Fluff. Hard numbers can't be done, as you are talking trying to keep track of every unit in every battle. Since the game says raids happen a lot, yet very few of them are ever written about, that causes more issues with numbers changing then your large battles.
|
Requiem
03/08/20 08:06 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Cannon Bashing? ….. hardly, when you consider they have had how many years to fix the logistical nature of the game ….
Quote:
…..as there is no POSSIBLE way, they could account for everything.
This is their job, and yes they can, you just need a large enough excel sheet program – not a problem once it is set up – though to set it up will take a considerable amount of time to factor in all the individual equations used (thereafter it is just a question of copy and paste), as they have only had 36 years you might be right give it another 50 years, and they will need a semi-permanent data entry clerk.
Quote:
…..and not all ships that are part of moving supplies.
A TO&E usually includes all supply vessels and logistical support numbers. If a gaming group wants to establish numbers for each Clan’s invasion logistics fleet then do so.
Quote:
……..The HPGs on their ships would circumvent that.
How many warships have HPG built into them? I haven’t even read of one that has such a feature – plus you will need one per world you conquer within the IS (if you are not going to use ComStar facilities), so where do these ships hail from and who built them in the vast numbers that will be required?
Efficiency dictates you will use ComStar Facilities – or have the Clans given up on the idea of waste.
Quote:
why does it have to be 6 months to order?
Yes they can order every week if they want – however the travel time cannot be changed – it is a fixed constant of six months from the Kerensky Cluster to the Deep Periphery Logistical Supply Station – and from there each clan need to transfer them to their warehouses / front supply units (even more time).
So yes, size of each merchant ship will dictate as to time taken to resupply their entire Touman spread over many worlds and located within fleets upon the front lines.
Quote:
Once in print, then the argument turns to not allowing GMs to do anything creative with the game.
How many sections above have allowed the GM to modify the game for their own creativity of the games history?
Quote:
….. as you are talking trying to keep track of every unit in every battle.
Please re-read …. This allows for an individual Clan unit to go through many battles within the IS providing an explanation as to their supplies / reinforcement numbers over time. It can even account for the individual raids (Trial of Possessions) the Clan Units can be involved with when determining available forces for your bid.
And over time it will explain any changes in tactics due to depletion in numbers / depletion in logistics.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/08/20 09:46 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Fix the game?
Fantasy numbers and such isn't as important as rules and continuity. I do agree that it is very frustrating that the game claims one thing, but then comes up with something in complete opposite of such ways. The lack of production, yet some how, 10 new RCTs are made in that time frame, and still bring their losses up to full strength.
I have yet to see other games come up with full lists of TO&Es for each month, or even a year of fighting. Also, this would show just how much BS their own setting really is.
And no. It is NOT their job to make accounting their primary focus. It is about making the game better. As said before, no one has really said much about that many issues with the fluff. Some things are beyond stupid, and talked about, but how many bullets the militia on some obscured backwater world that isn't even on the map isn't one of them.
Where in any of the 4 clans does it say how many ships the Diamond Sharks have to bring in supplies those clans would purchase from? Or even a list of the Diamond Sharks ships? And no. Supply ships aren't standard TO&E for units. Most do not have listed something that doesn't stick with the unit, so shipping in supplies that were not with them when deployed won't show up. If they did, the half of Defiance's fleet would show up on a lot of customers that deal with them. If I remember right, the Sharks were not even the reserve clan for the first invasion wave.
Would it be stupid to even believe the IS would assist the clans in any way, much less give them access to the HPG network? So brining in their own HPG's to set up would be necessary. To not even plan for it is beyond even their arrogance. Not a waste, as they would be more then stupid to think they could trust anyone that would side with them with intel of their forces. But then this is basic planning.
The idea of raids was meant for the IS accounting of how many units they have, as it was complained that the FC dropped so many regiments from the fourth war to 3039, to the clan invasion and beyond.
And the clans did take casualties, but the only ones that seem to matter is those done to further the story line. The entire Falcon Guard on Twycross comes to mind. There were others in the novels, but nothing was really done with them.
Again, consistency is the issue here. The travel time to record the invasion route took so long, but yet replacing damaged units was instantaneous, with the exception of the Wolves. They had their supplies close at hand, while the others didn't. So unless their ships coming in the first wave had the reinforcements on them, there is a big issue here. This is something I do agree with.
|
Requiem
03/09/20 04:49 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
I do agree that it is very frustrating that ….10 new RCTs are made in that time frame, and still bring their losses up to full strength.
Is this not occurring for the majority of the Clan Invasion with the exception of but a few major battles – one against the Jaguars – one against the Jaguars and Cats - and another against the Falcons?
Quote:
I have yet to see other games come up with full lists of TO&Es for each month, or even a year of fighting. Also, this would show just how much BS their own setting really is.
WW2 strategy game for one – as well as more complex strategy games for another should have them when undertaking massive campaigns over a great deal of time – The entire Battletech game can quite conceivably maintain such a system.
Quote:
It is NOT their job to make accounting their primary focus. It is about making the game better.
I agree the primary focus of the game should be to make it better - however when the books indicate that every unit is permanently at 100% fighting strength there is something wrong – when two clans fight a civil war and the IS forces are not allowed to fight them when they have severely damaged one another, not once (Falcons Vs. Wolves) but twice (Wolves Vs Jaguars – reaping warriors to replace those they lost during the Falcon Vs. Wolves) there is something wrong – when the Falcons and Wolves return to the Clan Home Worlds and they are “given” forces from the other Clans without even a trial of absorption to increase their forces to pre civil war there is something wrong.
There must be a mechanism to bring the game back to a responsible and accurate setting so that the games setting is transparent in the level of damage all forces (IS and Clan) are sustaining so that the Invasion can be considered to be accurate and a winner can be determined.
As is the current situation is but one persons attempt at determining a outcome based upon no real rational thought or quantifiable data.
Quote:
Where in any of the 4 clans does it say how many ships the Diamond Sharks have to bring in supplies those clans would purchase from?
…. Known derisively as the "Merchant Clan" by their jealous rivals ….. as well as their Touman – Potemkin Class
This is enough to say they have the ships …
Quote:
Most do not have listed something that doesn't stick with the unit, so shipping in supplies that were not with them when deployed won't show up.
However in this case the these ships will stick with their Clan invasion force within the Deep Periphery and the Inner Sphere – they are an integral part of the invasion (something that TPTB completely forgot) and as such must be included.
Quote:
If I remember right, the Sharks were not even the reserve clan for the first invasion wave.
Their military was not there but their merchants were …
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Diamond_Shark
“In the meantime, having studied the conditions in the Periphery, saKhan Sennet returned to the homeworlds and began building support among the merchant caste to send a trading fleet.”
“By the time the merchant fleet had reached the Inner Sphere the First Wave of Operation Revival was nearing its end.”
Quote:
Would it be stupid to even believe the IS would assist the clans in any way, much less give them access to the HPG network?
When a world is conquered by the Clans will they hold ComStars neutrality as any IS House would? Or would they take control of the HPG for their own security as well as their own use? They should have more than enough people to take over a HPG site and run it with their own people – as shouldn’t they be able take any HPG building with no casualties once they have gained access with elementals? That is ComStar will surrender without a fight due to the precious nature of the equipment they control.
Quote:
The idea of raids was meant for the IS accounting of how many units they have, as it was complained that the FC dropped so many regiments from the fourth war to 3039, to the clan invasion and beyond.
The 20 year book is set in 3050 – Fed-Com – close to 270 Regiments (approx.)? and if you factor in the former CC (that I contest should have been taken during the 3039 war how many more should this be? 285 – 290 – 300 Regiments?
Quote:
And the clans did take casualties ……
When reading the ordinary battles there were never any casualty figures for the Clans, and when engaged in further combat it was as if they have never received any casualties ……
Only in special battles Twycross, Walcott, Luthien etc did we receive a run-down of clan casualties, however it was like 5 minutes after the battle these Clan units were miraculously back to 100% ……
Quote:
consistency is the issue here…..
And now with this new system there will be consistency …….. for those who want to use it …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Karagin
03/09/20 09:49 AM
70.118.172.64
|
Seriously, you should apply for a job with CGL, with this kind of determined fixation on details you would be boon to their operations and in fact, you could most likely help them out. Clearly, they need someone of your caliber and dedication. I am being serious here, not droll or anything else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
03/09/20 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
|
I suggest reading the Diamond Sharks being with the invasion force. They did not have a fleet of merchant ships with them during the invasion of the periphery. It was only after the Sharks participated in one invasion did the SaKhan return to the home worlds to get the fleet going. And being a merchant clan, does not mean the other clans would deal with them. To do so, would be admitting failure to predict the supplies needed for the invasion. Necessity caused them to swallow that pride.
And there is a very easy way to bring the game back into focus. Stop making the fluff books. But that means their money flow gets cut even more. It is filling in the blanks of history and such that they are having issues with numbers. Again. The rules and consistency need to be fixed before the fluff can be. Otherwise, it will have to change with the next rule book as things are no longer done or things that could not be done, miraculously break the laws of the universe and can be done. Not thru research, but just by being.
You missed the entire concept of the clans believing the IS would help them. When planning for the invasion, they would have the HPGs already built and loaded up as part of the materials needed for the invasion. Not during, when they found comstar would assist them, but before they even hit the periphery. Before talking with Comstar directly, it would have been completely stupid to believe they would be allowed access to the HPG network in the IS. And even with contact, they should have been leery of important messages being sent thru them.
Basing your argument on the alt needs to stop when putting out something like the title of this thread. This looks to be asking why the game isn't accurate on their own unit count. Not a shameless plug for something that has no printed numbers for anything. So arguing that it is the only way is completely false, as there is NOTHING to support that it isn't just made up for an argument.
One thought that comes to mind with reinforcements is that the clans brought in replacements for those that fall when they invaded. They will only use those units at their pre invasion numbers, and make them 100% when they know those that were in a battle will not be returning soon, if ever. Much like most military, where they have back ups for the machines, as well as having extra machines. Reserves is what they are called. As long as they don't violate their bid numbers, they don't have any issues.
And as said before, casualty reports would show that the clans could not even begin to replace their downed units with the pitiful reserves they have for the entire homeworlds. So to cover that, they had to be the invincible boogie man. The dead rise again for then next battle sort of feel.
Not sure why you believe the 'new' system will be consistent, as the basis for the entire story isn't solid. The infantry damage rules changed from an Awesome being able to mow down 3 platoons of infantry a round, to overheating before they could do so in 10 rounds. This would change the outcome of all the battles fought. So with things like this, the story is based on quicksand. The only consistency that is there, is that it won't stand on it's own. Not the consistency we want or need.
|
Requiem
03/09/20 05:37 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
I suggest reading the Diamond Sharks being with the invasion force.
Canon Fact: “By the time the merchant fleet had reached the Inner Sphere the First Wave of Operation Revival was nearing its end.”
Yes their first client, Jade Falcon, did not want anything to do with them – and yet they were able to return to the Kerensky Cluster with ……?
The “loot” of how many worlds …..black market trade ….. trade with the IS? ….. multimedia programs (Psy-Ops approved to bring about cultural instability within the Clan Caste system?) …..
As each Clan progresses within the IS their Logistics distance increases / the greater the difficulty of the logistics chain – the time taken to get their logistics to the front lines increases.
Did anyone within TPTB read about Napoleon Bonaparte’s campaign / Germany’s campaign into Russia, Japan’s entire WW2 campaign with regards to their logistics issues / WW2 the Fox in Libya / Egypt?
One more point that was completely forgotten for the entire Clan Invasion as it was just too difficult / too obscure a topic to consider as only big robots matter and the idea of how they received their consumables is a non issue (except for when it can be used in other stories such as during the Victor / Katherine civil war)?
Contradictions are rife within the game.
Quote:
You missed the entire concept of the clans believing the IS would help them.
Really?
Quote:
…… it would have been completely stupid to believe they would be allowed access to the HPG network in the IS
And what happens when you have captured the world – doesn’t this mean the entire world, its population and every business / organization etc on that world now below to the Clan who won it – and doesn’t this include the HPG station?
As isn’t this what happens on the Clan’s home worlds! and shouldn’t this also occur within the IS as this is just logical, once captured everyone and everything now belongs to the Clan in question – and these people will do whatever I tell them to do?
Quote:
One thought that comes to mind with reinforcements is that the clans brought in replacements for those that fall when they invaded.
Really? There is nothing written in any book anywhere where the clans maintain a reserve force for anything …. Once you have passed your Trial of Position you are assigned to a unit, you are not assigned to sit on the side line until a spot opens up …
Once the bid has been made – units are assigned to battle – are those that are not assigned to this battle allowed on the battlefield if they lose? – so does this make them a reserve unit (who will violate the bid to change the outcome) in any sense of the word? As a reserve unit within the IS is sent in to assist a failing unit within a battle to change the outcome from loss to win by increasing the forces available.
Quote:
So to cover that, they had to be the invincible boogie man. The dead rise again for then next battle sort of feel.
How does it help the game to obfuscate the facts of war? We are provided with IS casualties but the Clan’s are off limits?
Quote:
infantry damage rules
The rules for infantry needs to be re-written to allow for the commando, the use of special weapons, having a team of two or even 4 wandering around with special weapons – the use of scanners (50Km range) etc! The Infantry rules need to be taken from the point of view of the infantryman and not the MechWarrion –
Quote:
….an awesome being able to mow down 3 platoons of infantry a round….
What can they do to damage a ‘Mech (elemental) when they have sneak suits and SRMs with inferno rounds – or how about a man portable small laser, or what about the Barrett 50 (2Km range and with the ability to penetrate) Vs an elemental.
Where is the reality / consistency when the rules are inaccurate or provide one force an advantage they should not have over that of another?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 01:52 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Still suggest rereading the Sharks entry.
The part where the clans had garrison forces in the IS during the first wave. Not when the PGCs got there, but before then. This runs completely counter to the front line troops chaffing at doing such duty.
Without thoroughly checking thru the programs that run the HPG, and even with this, it would be foolish to down right dangerous to think that Comstar didn't have things to copy any data being sent, as well as being able to shut down the HPG network. For suggesting Psy-ops, you seem to miss sabotauge that should be done against every invader.
Maybe rereading the invasion units during the first few waves might come in handy. How many units were NOT involved in them, that the warriors would be more then willing to change a unit, maybe even challenging to a trial of position, to be part of the next assault? Some units would have the favor of the khans to be part of the next attack over the lower units. Still refer to the statement of the garrison units in the first wave.
Also, not having any would be stupid. They know they will take losses. Maybe not as many as they really believed, but it is only a matter of luck before a ppc, ac10, gauss slug or ac 20 hits the head of a mech and kills the pilot. Or even ammo explosion that guts the unit, killing the pilot. Even just being wounded for the next fight would require a fresh warrior in a machine. It could even come from a trial of Grievance.
I agree that the infantry damage needed to be fixed. They just went too far in the opposite way. And with it, the entire scope of a lot of battles would change. Any sort of mech assault on a city full of infantry would have turned out far different then what they did. And more damage to the city would have been done, trying to kill those infantry. So mechs and tanks would be close to useless in cities. Infantry vs infantry would be the norm.
Where is the reality of a PPC that throws basic lightning bolts and ballistic weapons that can't shoot a kilometer. They move between the stars by teleportation. And then the ER version or the PPC removes the inability of the PPC to create that lightning at ranges under 90 meters? The clans should have had normal ppcs without the minimum, as well as the ACs/Gauss issues with short range as well. In reality, the heavier ACs would be harder to aim at shorter ranges, as they need to be swung, which is counter to the weight of the weapon. The longer barrel would not come into play unless hand to hand combat was done.
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 02:09 AM
66.74.60.165
|
And more reality with weapons and such.
An infantry laser has a range of 6 (180 meters) hexes, and yet doesn't even weight a quarter ton, but the vehicle small laser is only 3 (90 meters) hexes and weighs half a ton?
This is the same for the elemental laser, yet they can carry a normal infantry one, and the same thing.
Original SL armor was supposed to be superior to the IS armor in 3025, yet only the Ferro version can protect better for the same weight, yet it is about useless on some of the larger machines with low crits
The greatest sniper rifle, can not do more then a single point of damage to standard mech/vehicle armor, but yet a single hit on normal flesh isn't an instant kill.
I know they tried to keep it simple. Yet they destroy their own arguments with the next set of rules, or even with the same rules. Reality just isn't part of the game as much as people would like it. The contradictions in the rules, or maybe the whims of TPTB, are a big issue.
One more reality that should happen. The clans units should have a built in TC or their main battle computers should have this ability in them. Just targeting better, not the target a body part ability.
|
Requiem
03/10/20 06:18 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Still suggest rereading the Sharks entry.
Canon? …. What does PGCs have to do with it?
Quote:
Without thoroughly checking thru the programs that run the HPG
How many within ComStar have undergone electronic-warfare courses and where were they sent when you compare it to the Clans electronics technicians who are trained to identify any bugs in the computer system and fix them?
With the cans continual technology development in the past centuries (Star League Mechs to Omni Mechs and their head’s up display helmets for example) in comparison to Comstar’s stagnation of technology approach to the IS my bet is the Clans techs development in technology will have the edge when it comes to identifying miscellaneous code errors embedded within the HPG main frame – who knows they could just wipe the old OS / remove the old servers and replace them with something far more advanced and efficient.
and in all reality this could be a possibility …. upgrading all former ComStar HPGs to Clan level tech to ensure efficient communication within their IS invasion corridor and also with their communication hub located within the deep periphery – that connects them with the Kerensky Cluster.
Quote:
How many units were NOT involved in them, that the warriors would be more then willing to change a unit, maybe even challenging to a trial of position, to be part of the next assault?
Wouldn’t you need authorization, as this is within an active battle zone …. By allowing people to shift with a trial of position would cause chaos within the Toumand, as well as cause problems within individual units - how many know their team mates battle routine intimately, by allowing an outsider in you will just through off the rhythm of the members within their star / trinary etc …. For how long have they been working together?
Quote:
Also, not having any would be stupid. They know they will take losses.
Where is it written units have spare pilots? I cannot remember this ever been discussed …..
In case of lost members within a unit wouldn’t you just exclude them by removing them in the initial bid to undertake the next Trial of Possession to capture the IS world?
Where within the bid rules does it allow to take in consideration for units that have been damaged?
What it states is that high ranking commanders make the bid with the forces that available to them - and that is just the undamaged units! Also can’t they merge units to manufacture whole units?
Quote:
I agree that the infantry damage needed to be fixed.
Considering when the majority of RCTs have infantry in the thousands and there are many worlds who have populations in the Billions – that would mean their cities are about the same size of most large US Cities (maybe even bigger) – what would happen when you send in a trinary of just elementals (1,125).?
Quote:
And more reality with weapons and such.
Just more issues that were never rectified ….. that is you want to create your own rules to fix them.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/10/20 06:19 AM)
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 01:35 PM
66.74.60.165
|
As it was none of the other Clans' front-line troops were willing to buy from the Diamond Sharks either, even as their supply problems began to grow; when questioned many felt it to be a matter of honor, that to buy from a Clan's lower caste which had traveled to the Inner Sphere before their own warriors had would be an unacceptable stain. A far more practical mindset was to be found among Clan garrison forces however: lacking sufficient supplies to effectively combat the growing resistance movements on their worlds, these forces chose practicality over honor. Within weeks of the start of the second wave the Diamond Sharks had begun to finally turn a profit.[13]
Who was doing the garrison? The front line units, or somsone else?
How many in the clan know anything about those working in Comstar? It isn't like the Dragoons got many, if any, in the organization and found out their little secrets. To think there isn't, and with WOB and even Rohm, thinking their isn't, would be deadly.
It is possible they did upgrade any coding. External units to do so is possible. But one more side issue here. The state in which the HPGs are actually in. It is said most are jury rigged to hell and back, so replacing the components would probably be done. Clan techs might not be able to figure out what was done to keep the units working.
But back to the original point here. The clans should have planned for putting up their own HPG network on their way to Terra.
As a side thought, why would the untrusting, freeborn hating clans even begin to trust the freeborn barbarians of the IS with something like the HPG network?
There were more then a few trials done in an active warzone. They are warriors, and to suggest their own traditions had to be suspended wouldn't sit well with any of them. Being wise is a whole different subject. And with the clans, their tactics were pretty straight forward, due to their sterilized warfare style. The same could be said for any reinforcements as well. The lack of training together could cause issues, but I don't think it would. They are just too strict on how to fight. It isn't like jump jets get in the way of fights. Most of the omnis didn't have them standard, and in the clans views, removing weapons and sinks wasn't worth the exchange.
Do you really think that losing a pilot or even three would stop the others from wanting in on the next fight? We are talking about a warrior society. They would not only bid, but be proud of being able to take the objective with even less forces. And to be left out just because of a few missing would cause most to demand a trial of refusal as well. It would be an insult to suggest they couldn't do it without a full roster.
And for most units in the IS at least, they tend to have more pilots then machines. So a spare one or two isn't that unusual. And they did have garrison units that would love to move up to a fighting unit. At least initially, they thought only the front line would be fighting. The revolts and such that happened were a shock at first.
I don't want to create my own rules to fix the problems with the rules in the game. I want something stable, so when I go to play with another group, there is no 'by the way. That doesn't work, or this was set up to deal with it' after the fact. I would like to know before playing the shuffle jump do or doesn't add the full jump to the to hit rolls or if it is counted as just the number of hexes moved from the initial point, ie a full circle is 0 or 1 for how far you moved, even if you used a full 8 with a spider. It isn't unreasonable to want to know that before you try, or someone else does.
|
Requiem
03/10/20 04:46 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Clan garrison forces however: lacking sufficient supplies to effectively combat the growing resistance movements on their worlds, these forces chose practicality over honor. Within weeks of the start of the second wave the Diamond Sharks had begun to finally turn a profit.
Within the second wave?
PGCs were assigned to Smoke Jaguar Worlds – “second-line units with inferior equipment, to garrison their conquered territory and free up front-line units for the Third Wave.”
“Reluctantly the ilKhan was forced to agree and approved the usage of PGCs in late August.” (for the other Clans - Fourth Wave)
Thus, as the Jaguars were only Clans to have PGS within any of the Invasion Corridors during the Second Wave Clan Diamond Shark must have been assisting their PGCs.
Quote:
working in Comstar ….. The state in which the HPGs are actually in. It is said most are jury rigged to hell and back,
Considering how important communication is – if the did find an issue with the HPG, given their level of technological understanding as well as the number of technicians they can call upon, wouldn’t they just fix it to Clan Specs?
It would make more sense than allowing a quasi religious order to maintain command of the ONLY communication device on the planet! – as wouldn’t the Clans see ComStar as a Backward Barbarian Techno Religious order that symbolizes / represents everything they were sent to the IS to liberate the people of the IS from?, and in so doing restore the people of the IS to a more civilized society?
How could they (the Clans) put up with individuals who believe they have to mumble chants over technology to keep it working and not want to inflict violence on them for their barbaric ways? …. The Jag’s / Falcons would have just killed them on the spot and just walked in and fixed them to their specs and assigned their own people to operate them – especially within the early waves of the invasion.
Putting their own Caste people in charge of them is the only logical option – from a technological standpoint as well as a military (security) standpoint.
Quote:
The clans should have planned for putting up their own HPG network on their way to Terra.
First, how many extra small space HPG stations would this have required when you are looking at one per captured planet – who within the Clan Home-worlds would have the resources to build these – who has the ships to even consider transport them other than Diamond Sharks Potemkins?
Second, doesn’t the Clans abhor waste – wouldn’t it be easier, quicker and require less resources just to fix ComStars former HPG stations and then use what is available? Put their own people in to run and secure its operations …. Thus kicking out all Comstar flunkies?
Quote:
There were more then a few trials done in an active warzone.
How many extra clansmen died due to these fights?
How long does it take for one member of a team to read the subtle changes in how the compatriot mech moves to understand what their pilot is about to do next? This takes time and a bond of trust ….
Whoever wrote this was never in an infantry unit – you must become part of the team – outsiders / replacement personnel are treated with scorn until they can prove themselves (and this takes time.) It is also a point that has existed since the early Greek units – read up on the Spartans and how new members were treated until they could prove themselves!
If a commander wants to bid in a damaged (smaller unit) to win the bid they will do so – no matter how imprudent it is to do so. Consider how many vehicles, VTOLs, conventional fighters, properly equipped infantry units etc …. Remember, there is a problem with sending in too few – what happens when / if you loose?
Yes – the Clans should have more spare machines than pilots - a fact that should be exploited when IS commando teams come to steal them from where-ever they are being warehoused.
Quote:
I want something stable, so when I go to play with another group, there is no 'by the way.
Full disclose before the game …. Provide a full rundown of any modifiers you would like to bring to the game – the reasons why – and give them time to understand the changes …. Who knows they may have their own changes they would also like to bring to the game …. Or they may even enjoy the changes you have suggested and want to keep them for their future games …. Talk to your opponents and ask them what they think about house rules before a blanket ban is considered by just one group over another, prior to any communication on either side.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 07:13 PM
66.74.60.165
|
So the Jaguars themselves broke the bidding, by having the garrison units in place as they moved inwards. This is very important, as it means they would have some pilots that could be swapped out to front line units. They may only be guarding the ammo being moved, but this is more prestigious then just guarding a world behind the lines.
And don't forget that the clans were duelists in combat. They tried to keep it one on one, so fighting as a group wasn't a big thing, like an RCT is. Also, basic moves would be there, but not exact routines for them. This would negate the need for extended training with the new unit or recruit.
With the clans relying on Comstar for coms, the clans would not have known they would help. So back to the original statement that the clans would have to have the HPG equipment planned out all the way to Terra. Comstar helping only helped to avoid having to bring up more equipment in the supplies later on. Any intel on Comstar before the actual invasion would have painted them as hostile to all except their own.
With this, you do not need a space station to have HPG coms. The black box is very small compared to the HPG network, so size should be smaller with clantech.
There are at least 3 that died during the fights in clan trials. The ones Phelan killed to become not only a warrior, but win the Ward blood name, as well as the one Natasha killed to return to the clans as a star colonel. There were others mentioned in the novels.
Shame is about the main thing that happens when you lose. Though bringing in the last bid is allowed, with great shame and giving up something as well to the person that 'lost' the bid in the first place.
Having more machines is not something that would be exploited. Having more pilots would do far more harm when you steal the machines. This not only embarrasses those that 'lost' the machines, but also means they have less units to actually send into a fight.
Full disclosure normally does not happen. You go to play in a new group, and sitting around telling all the changes removes the first games worth of time. Not going to be happening when everyone wants to play. Game time is limited for most, so things get left behind until something happens that requires a ruling. As most do not write a book on what is changed, they are forgotten to be given out to a new player. And with this, knowing your first game is toast just going over the rule changes, do you think a group would even bother with new people if they have enough to run a game?
|
ghostrider
03/10/20 07:24 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The most notable example of this was the chains of Clan WarShips and message stations setup to allow near real-time communications between the Inner Sphere and Clan Homeworlds for Grand Council meetings to elect Khans. [6]
Not sure where it was said the clan warships don't have HPGs on them, but this is under the title of HPG.
It may not be all of them, but some do have the 50 ton units mounted. Also, there is a few that were 12 ton units mounted on vehicles during the original SL.
|
Cray
03/10/20 07:43 PM
71.47.151.234
|
Quote:
What we have at CGL -- and WizKids, and FASA, before it -- is a bunch of gamers who have no grasp whatsoever of History, or Economics, or the sciences,
Gee, thanks. I'll let my managers know so I can leave the aerospace industry for something safe and unsciencey like burger flipping.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
Requiem
03/11/20 08:01 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
So the Jaguars themselves broke the bidding, by having the garrison units in place as they moved inwards.
Yes …. By having more true-born on the front line they hoped they could catch up with the Wolves.
However, Jaguars always treated their PGC poorly (thus they needed to work with the Diamond Sharks to ensure they had the logistics support to remain operational).
The question is however – why didn’t the DCMS spies recognize this problem and why didn’t the DCMS send forces into their rear to take advantage of this situation in a home to disrupt their logistics – thus slowing down their forces on the front line – thus giving the DCMS more time to prepare for more units per world / traps etc in front of their invasion corridor – ie. kill more Clan warriors and convert their wins into a pyrrhic victory!
More bad writing when it was set up for turning the war within DC space into mass battles with many units?
Quote:
And don't forget that the clans were duelists in combat.
Not all the time! How many times did warriors use the uses to change the game from one on one to an all out melee – Aiden Pryde comes to mind …. In such a situation you will have to rely on your team mates to have your back!
Quote:
With the clans relying on Comstar for coms, the clans would not have known they would help.
ComStar adepts become Worker Caste with the conquering of the world. As such they will do as they are told or else face the consequences.
Clan Home world Worker caste people will fix the HPG with or without their assistance so that the warriors will have a reliable and efficient communications system.
Quote:
With the clans relying on Comstar for coms, the clans would not have known they would help.
Disagree – all IS people and organizations are the enemy of their great mission to reform the IS into a Kerensky Style Star League that is called the Clans – doesn’t the Clans Crusader belief go something like, “all must submit to their genetically superior bettors or die!”.
Quote:
The black box is very small compared to the HPG network, so size should be smaller with clantech.
The black box is just a fancy fax machine – it scans in printed pages and then sends them out it DOES NOT allow for real time communication face to face communication that was required in the second ilKhan death when the Khans decided to vote in who would be the next ilKhan would be via video transmission than that of being there physically with the first ilKhan’s death within the IS.
Plus wouldn’t you want to create a system where, as Khan, you could talk with your front line commanders - in real time – as to what is going on in their battles at any point in time?
Consider the importance of real time information within war.
Winston put it best when he stated, “ Truth is so important she must be surrounded by hand-maidens of lies!”
Quote:
Having more machines is not something that would be exploited.
What is important is how many Clan Omni mechs the IS forces can put in their units o the front lines – how they get them is immaterial.
Quote:
It may not be all of them, but some do have the 50 ton units mounted. Also, there is a few that were 12 ton units mounted on vehicles during the original SL.
Can you please provide examples – book and page no / wiki page. Thanks.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/11/20 12:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Hoped to catch up to the wolves?
Best look at that again. By the second wave, the garrison units were buying supplies. This is BEFORE the wolves surged ahead. So the excuse doesn't work.
The grand melee, and a few warriors thinking they could score a big victory during trials of position are the main times the clans would create the chaos for hitting multiple enemy units. It was only when they faced the IS that they would start doing it more often. And only as a response to their enemy doing the hit and fade. So they were duelists.
Still not seeing the time line properly. When preparing for the invasion, the clans would have had to plan for no help at all from the IS. There is no way they could have known that when a planet fell, they would have coms and such from it. The IS could well have scorched the HPG network to avoid the clans from using them, once they figured out, they were going to lose.
Given the hatred for freeborns in the homeworlds, the barbarians in the IS would be considered even worse. The idea that their pet surats were smarter should have them thinking they would have to kill a lot of the IS before they realized the clans 'superior' warriors. And to plan a war based on local cooperation is just asking to fail.
The black box is far more then a fax machine. Maybe the fact that it sends signals light years in minutes/months isn't sinking in. A light year is how far light travels in the 365 day year of Terra. That means the signal is moving far faster then light.
But this isn't what was being presented. The fact that the HPG doesn't have to be this radar telescope sized monstrosity. It can be much smaller. And there was models made for jumpships/warships, and during a conversation with Ulric, Phelan found out the Dire Wolf had one. So there are a few places that say warships had HPGs build into them.
The weight and uses of an HPG is under then Hyperpulse Generator section in the wiki.
And oddly enough, it does have the black box in there, saying it became the reliable source of coms after the destruction of the normal HPG network.
Edited by ghostrider (03/11/20 12:50 PM)
|
Requiem
03/11/20 04:21 PM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Hoped to catch up to the wolves?
Why so literal? ……. surge ahead then – by utilizing the maximum of their available true-born forces.
Quote:
So they were duelists.
…. And how many would create chaos during a Trial of Position?
There is no definitive information this tactic as not used even once – and what about Clan Wolverine when they fought to leave the Kerensky Cluster – Clan Widomaker – prior to their absorption Wolves and Widowmaker Trials of Possessions combat “skirted the rules of Combat” (Wiki – Clan Wolf) – so, what does this mean – but chaos on the battlefield ….. so it is not like they are they unable or unwilling to use the tactic when they believe it is in their best interest to do so.
Quote:
When preparing for the invasion, the clans would have had to plan for no help at all from the IS.
There is no plan for any help from any IS state, institution, or person.
There is however a plan to use what is available to assist with their invasion - to that end ….. if the Inner Sphere’s working communications, military industrial complexes and food production facilities can be used to alleviate the strain upon their current Logistics (time and resources to transport everything needed from the Kerensky Cluster to the IS – 6 months plus) then they should do so.
That said ….
- reconfiguring IS ComStar HPG facilities would be a far more easier (and an efficient use of resources) project than that of building thousands of HPG stations (one per world) – there is the issue that the Clans DO NOT have the resources for such an undertaking to be considered as well.
The existence of ComStar and their available and working HPG network as well as the treaty the IS Houses have with regards to these facilities as being outside of combat to the point where no one would dare harm such a station must have been within Wolf’s Dragoons first reconnaissance missive to the Grand Council – a point every Clan would have jumped on and factored into their invasion plans from that point onward ……. When a world was captured there would be a working HPG station – the Houses would not destroy it and ComStar would never order their acolytes’ to destroy it – it was just an ingrained fact within all the IS forces and people as to the sanctity of these facilities ……
Quote:
And to plan a war based on local cooperation is just asking to fail.
This is Crusader philosophy – a sentiment that Crusader Clans may believe – thus they may need a vast workforce from the Clan Home Worlds to ensure the appropriate running of all vital industries within the IS.
However, it is not a Warden sentiment / philosophy – they may believe that they can obtain assistance when it is explained to them that the Clans are the descendants of the SLDF and they are there to liberate them from their barbarian ways and bring them into a better life under the stewardship of their new Clan True-born Overlords.
Quote:
The black box is far more then a fax machine.
Sorry to say but yes it is – it can only send text messages – it CANNOT send video messages, so it is little better than a text message / fax machine than can send messages at incredible speeds and over vast distances – Remember however these messages are incredibly slow when compared to that of the HPG relay station – plus HPG relay stations can be set up for real time communication a point that Black boxes can never achieve within this era.
How many Khans / Generals (even now) demand the use of real time communications – how many times are we shown government officials watching a real time raids by their special forces?
If black boxes became a reliable source of communications, after the destruction of the normal HPG network, this would mean that many worlds had access to them – also communications does not mean the volume a HPG station can send it could be just the necessities of single government communicates sent in text form.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/11/20 09:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Still not getting the time line right. The wolves did not get ahead or surge or anything of the sort in wave one. Has the alt really caused a complete failure of remembering what canon has done? So saying the Jaguars were using garrison troops by wave two counters the entire idea of using the PGCs to catch up. There was no need to catch up at this point.
Where did I say that the clans didn't participate in chaos of engaging more then one target? I said that they were duelists. There were times when a few broke this taboo, but for the most part, they did not need to worry about each others moves, as they did not work as a unit like an RCT or even an IS lance did.
If you wanted an example, maybe using something that wasn't so obscure as the Wolverines, but maybe the wolves in a few battles where Natasha was involved. Badges were taken in lei of the one on one fights. That is something people would remember. Also the fact that the entire circle of equals engaged in taking out the forces involved in the trial that killed Nicholas.
Efficiency dictates you will use ComStar Facilities – or have the Clans given up on the idea of waste.
There is no plan for any help from any IS state, institution, or person.
So which statement is true for the planning of the invasion and bringing in their own HPGs? Would you be foolish to believe that the Comstar run ones would not sabotage your coms or send a copy to the IS forces? I am saying straight up, that when planning the invasion, the clans would have brought as many HPGs as needed to run to Terra. For some reason, it seems you disagree with this. Some how them magically knew comstar would help them along before they even got into the periphery.
When a world was captured there would be a working HPG station – the Houses would not destroy it and ComStar would never order their acolytes’ to destroy it
This is wrong. If they suspected the clans were going to take out comstar and the IS, you bet they would destroy the network to slow down the clan advance. Only when it was shown that the clans possessed their own systems, would it have been taken off the table. It would not slow down the clans like it would be suspected.
I am starting to think something other then your own 'perfect' ideas just doesn't register. The black boxes sent out messages faster then light speed. So they were limited to paper recordings, which shouldn't really be that hard to increase to use monitors to avoid having to print or feed paper into it.
But the fact it DOES send the message faster then light is the point here. At light speed, it would take 30 YEARS to reach the distance of a single jump. The ability to make something better lies within them. This should have been exploited far beyond just bypassing comstar/wob HPG network. It should have been set up for a new network, or at least a larger system. They did improve the speed of the messages, as stated when the FS got the message Luthien would be attacked. Why did this not get improved to the point of making their own little listening posts that could send a larger list of messages?
|
Requiem
03/12/20 03:36 AM
101.185.82.147
|
Quote:
Still not getting the time line right.
What is so hard to understand? The Jaguars wanted to rig the game (with the complicity of their ilKhan) from word one - so they put their PGCs into garrison positions – they then uses their maximum True-born forces, as the plan went, so that they could pull ahead of all the other Clans (especially the Wolves) so that they could become the ilClan in the future!
Ie cheat to win!
Quote:
I said that they were duelists.
…. If they are primarily duelists then their piloting / gunnery should reflect this …..
In the event of a grand melee their piloting / gunnery should drop to reflect their inability to fight in such a campaign ….
also as they usually fight for small periods of time (due to the size of Circle of Equals) any campaign that goes over a certain time frame then there should be a second penalty to their piloting / gunnery
Quote:
Efficiency dictates you will use ComStar Facilities – or have the Clans given up on the idea of waste.
There is no plan for any help from any IS state, institution, or person.
The Clans take over a planet ….
They send in their Worker Caste free-borns into the ComStar HPG Facility … they advise the Comstar personnel they are now Worker Caste for their clan and must do as they are told ….. if they refuse they are either killed outright or thrown out of the HPG facility and send to something productive – digging ditches? …… if they accept they are now Worker Caste they will be given menial tasks under the supervision until they have proven their loyalty to the Clan.
The Clan Worker Caste members then fix the HPG to their specs and they run it ……
What is so difficult to understand?
Quote:
When a world was captured there would be a working HPG station – the Houses would not destroy it and ComStar would never order their acolytes’ to destroy it
Where is the proof of any HPG facility that was destroyed between when the Clans first invaded and when Focht formed an agreement with them – that they would assist in managing the worlds for the Clans?
Can’t think of even one …… so no they (IS forces) did not destroy HPGs
Quote:
Black Boxes
Limitations –
Text message only
One message at a time
Range
Time taken to receive the message (in comparison to ComStar HPG Systems)
Multimedia
Massive amounts of messages in one hit
Far greater Range
Very short period of time
If set up with two HPGs – one to receive one to send per world you can talk over massive distances near instantaneously.
What is there to understand? And yes there are different models that evolve over time with more functions …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/12/20 01:59 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The question is, would the other clans not call out the Jaguars for breaking their bid? They are a warrior society, and doing this would suggest the Jaguars could not perform like the other clans. It would insult the Jaguar warriors as well as every other clan.
I can agree that there should be penalties for lengthy invasions, but unless you are using something like Mechforce, I don't see where it makes an impact on the tabletop game. I could see some random faults happening from a lack of repair parts for simple things like seals for joints, and even glitches in things, like an engine heat spike or weapon failing to fire properly. I guess it just depends on how it is presented
So far, I have stated the clans would have to plan for no help in the IS. The answer given to this is that comstar is helping them. It seems the ability to see that the clans would have HPGs ready to install isn't being registered. What does Comstar helping run the coms have to do with the clans having to prepare for having to build/make their own before they get to the IS? The clans did not plan for putting up HPGs after they got to the IS. They did it BEFORE they left the home worlds. This is an answer to the statement:
Any communication within the Inner Sphere and to this facility, located at their entry point, is sent via a ComStar Facility – as every conquered world’s ComStar HPH facility would now be controlled / monitored by a Clan Technician(s) when they need to dispatch a message to their Khan on the front Lines or to their CIC located on Strana Mechty.
Can’t think of even one …… so no they (IS forces) did not destroy HPGs
Changing the subject to did not, from would not. The IS should have taken down a few of the HPG stations, even if it was nothing more then power source or something else that could be fixed. Yet they didn't. Comstar demanding payment for such a thing would have shown their hands far earlier then it did in canon that they were helping the clans.
The premise. They knew of the damage, but not of the invaders.
The fact that the Black boxes were mini HPGs isn't sinking in. As found, they were limited to amount that could be sent. And one message is not really correct. You could chain a bunch of messages to be sent out, by feeding several pages into the system at once. Otherwise it is useless to send out detailed plans for an attack.
Range is limited?
How is that? The message from Luthien would reach New Avalon. Speed is, but not range.
And the idea that the FC did NOT use this tech to even start to make their own back up HPGs is the point. A fax machine can be made into a modem and more. Simply hooking up to a memory system would allow you to send more, and receive more. No printing needed.
So just having a small one page sending fax machine is BS, as it should have lead to the HPG network replacement with greater speeds and amount sent/received. And yet, they only really said they were used during the HPG black out in the future. Sounds like a giant hole in the game.
And the FC had to build some of them in order to have them sent to units and worlds. I doubt a single cache would have enough to cover that many. So they had some knowledge of the inner workings.
|
Requiem
03/12/20 05:29 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Quote:
…..would the other clans not call out the Jaguars for breaking their bid?
Smoke Jaguars – Start of Third Wave - deployment of PGCs.
Jade Falcons – End of their third wave – deployment of PGCs.
Ghost Bears - Earliest PGC note is 3057.
Wolves – Wave 4 - August – deployment of PGCs.
The Jaguars used the ilKhan position for their own benefit – and when it became common knowledge the other clans followed suit – the real issue however is Provisional Garrison Clusters themselves ….
Third line units – who’s only duties were to “hold rear areas, perform cleanup tasks too dishonorable for front line or second line Clusters, or hold minor objectives.”
In addition to this is their numbers …. None of the invading Clans had them in any significant numbers that they could affect the garrison situation on more than three - four worlds – so the idea that they made a difference to the invasion is ludicrous.
Then there is the issue of timing …..
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Provisional_Garrison_Cluster
“During Operation REVIVAL the Jade Falcons, Ghost Bears, and Smoke Jaguars failed to bring PGCs with them as part of their toumans.”
Question if they failed to bring them ….
Departed Clan Space – Mid June 3049
Periphery Action – Ended January 3050
Wave 1 – Early March 3050
Wave 2 – May
Wave 3 - July
Wave 4 – Ended August
November – Tyra Miraborg
Year of “Peace”
October 3051 – Fifth Wave
If it takes six months travel time from the Kerensky Cluster to the IS and at least one month preparation time to arrange for transport / logistics etc the earliest time each clan could have requested their PGCs is ….
Jaguars – being there before the third wave (June) – is November / December 3049 (Whilst they were still travelling to the IS - very start of the Periphery Campaign)
Falcons / Wolves – July / August – they must have requested them December / January (during the Periphery action)
However it is noted that every Clan didn’t realize they they were having trouble in their rear until the end of the First Wave / during the second wave (March / April) – thus if this is that case the earliest they could have arrived is October / November.
And if they didn’t request their (Falcon / Wolf / Bear) PGCs until the arrival of the Jaguars within the IS (June) the earliest they could have arrived was late December 3050 / early January 3051 – during the year of peace.
There is a problem here with regards to timing …..
As for calling out the Jaguars hypocrisy – no one cared they just sent for their own and if the ilKhan complained they just noted the Jaguars were using theirs so why can’t we also use ours at the same time - argument?
Quote:
I don't see where it makes an impact on the tabletop game.
Starting the battle the two competitors must come to an agreement s to how long it took for the battle to start – did the clans just drop in and your forces immediately formed a defensive position or did their forces have to hunt the IS forces down – what many do not realize is that with the Clan Invasions progressing from wave to wave there must be two maps one for the entire world and the second for the individual battles – as time moves IS generals must have realized that the Clans are not geared up for lengthy battles that IS forces are capable of fighting (battles lasting months even years on the same world) of there must be penalties for the Clan forces …. As IS Generals drag out the battle Clan warriors must have piloting / gunnery penalties applied to which the iS forces do not as they are trained for lengthy battles … plus the Clans do not have logistical vehicles in the filed, only their Dropships – thus these must also be taken into consideration.
IS infantry are adept at taking enemy dropships and as such always assign a force to protect them and they also keep them buttoned up tight when not required to be taking on / removing cargo et al – can the same be said for the clans when they have never fought at battle like this in their entire history? Has anyone ever gone after a dropship? As you said they are duelists they are not brigands to invade and take over a dropship unless it is part of the bid.
Another IS tactic that was never used during the invasion when it should have been – how much technology could they have taken from the clans if the primary target was shifted from engaging the Clans forces to taking their Dropships?
Plus with this tactic being utilized again and again how many bids would have to increased to include a security unit for their dropships – and how many True-born warriors would bristle at the order of being placed on sentry duty? (How many circle of equals would be fought due to this order alone – dissention in the Clan ranks?)
Someone didn’t think through all the different scenarios the IS would use to win!
Also with the removal of their Dropships – regular maintenance in the field evaporates – any problems with their Vehicles will no longer be able to be fixed! Where-as the IS have teams and mobile repair gantries to perform their maintenance in the field.
Quote:
comstar is helping them.
ComStar contacted the Clans during the Periphery campaign and failed to tell the house units – Focht met with them in secret (Remember Focht was once from House Steiner – so why he didn’t warn them of this oncoming threat will one day be needed to discussed).
However, from the Clans point of view they will need to take control of every HPG station they capture – communication and information security within the OZ – so why would ComStar consider just giving over their HPGs to the enemy? Free upgrade of technology where their people would assist in running the new HPG station?
Quote:
The clans did not plan for putting up HPGs after they got to the IS. They did it BEFORE they left the home worlds. This is an answer to the statement:
Resources – every clan will need 200+ HPGs – one per world to reach Terra – where is the resources coming for this – where are the dropsips coming for these – where are the jumpships coming for these? Every six months of the invasion you will need 60 (approx) HPGs being sent from the Clan Home Worlds ….
Whereas if you just retrofit ComStar’s existing facilities resource allocation / time to build will be considerably less – efficiency in resource allocation?
Quote:
The IS should have taken down a few of the HPG stations, even if it was nothing more then power source or something else that could be fixed.
First you would need ComStar’s OK before you did this as the last time this occurred ComStar Interdicted Fed-Suns for their fake attack – can you risk another interdiction with the clans attacking at the same time?
There is no front line commander who could give this oder within the IS without having ComStar’s blessing in the first place.
It is just completely implausible an IS commander would order this. As for ComStar giving up their HPGs to the Clans so that they can maintain OZ communication – this too is highly unlikely, this is why Comstar should have been part of the War almost from the start they should have assisted the IS in their fight against the Invaders from the beginning.
Again the writing given is again a little too fanciful to be considered realistic.
Quote:
The fact that the Black boxes were mini HPGs isn't sinking in.
I agree ….
What do you call many messages being sent out all at the same time by feeding the pages in one after the other – One Message!
To make Black Box technology effective you need to have them in the OZ – the message is sent out to a local world that is still held by IS forces – the IS forces then use ComStar HPG services to get it to their GHQ – so that the message can be considered in a timely manner.
As for changing the Black Box – read the different CANON models available or am I allowed to create Alt. Universe versions of them now, so that by 3060 they will be able to communicate in real time via video hook up with a partner Black Box within a 50 light year radius?
In my opinion, the entire Black Box technology within the game was mismanaged from the get go – like so many other ideas that should have been explored and used – technology was never thought through logically from one era to the next.
With the coming of the Clans and ComStars communication Blackout – the issues must be raised ….
1. Why more balk boxes were not put into the field;
2. If Comstar facilities were being taken by the invading forces (a known fact by the loss of communications within the Clan OZ) why weren’t they angry over their loss – why didn’t they use their ComGuards – everyone knew of their existence – their stations are being lost just as each of the Houses Worlds and people are being lost and yet they are not angry they are not sending in their forces to battle the invaders to retrieve their lost property – they are just sitting on their hands and doing nothing.
From a House Lords position this must have been very perplexing as to why the Comstar was doing nothing to get their HPG stations and their people back – why didn’t any of the House Lords call in their ComStar Representative and ask them point blank what they were going to do to get their people back – they had 50 Regiments of Mechs that could have been put in the front line or in the rear and would have been of invaluable help to the inner sphere forces battling the Clans.
By doing nothing – their silence is the thunderous! In this matter.
and by Focht doing nothing (when he was once a Steiner Lord) this seems to be another issue that does not make any sense whatsoever - he could have warned house Steiner at the very least - they could have been prepared for the invasion!
Again more poor writing to explain what is going on?
Where were the vast R&D teams coming up with new tech? where was the IS Skunk Works and where were their “Kelly” Johnson – Aeronautical engineer genius …….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
03/13/20 04:59 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Unfortunately when it comes to Replacement Supplies Logistics for both the Clans and the IS units this becomes quite impossible to determine:-
Factory types as well as their annual production numbers;
Drop-ship Types (Cargo Capacity) and Jump-ship Types as well as their numbers;
All preclude any insightful attempt at making a rational determination.
Thus the only course of action is the irrational – each GM must make a decision for their group as to available numbers as well as their manifest cargo and additional crew from Non-warrior Castes that have been deemed important for the ongoing mission – first to become the ilClan and then to reform the Star League under a Clan Banner.
Even when only knowing all the Officer Academies within the IS graduation class numbers can only be guessed at – though the real problem lies in the enlisted personnel’s boot camps – no attempt has been made to clearly define their location r the number of people who are assigned to them on a regular basis.
The only constant is that every world would have their own form of boot camp in an attempt to form that worlds militia forces – to which the local lord then purchases the necessary weapons and vehicles for them based upon how wealthy the lord is as well as how paranoid they are when the subject of invasion is brought up.
Then there is the issue of timing – unlike the Clans and their Sibko – where a child is born in an iron wormb and must go through years of natural development to become a warrior (thus fixing any numbers at a constant amount for a minimum of 16-20 years) The IS forces can increases their non-officer corps numbers (Vehicle crew – armor, conventional fighter, infantry) within the span of one year / Officer Corps with specialist roles such as Mech Warrior / Aerospace fighter and Warship personnel will take longer (though no more than about 2 to 3 years when you consider Hanse Davion’s experimental training units prior to the 4th SW) and these individuals could also be trained quicker (consider the Amaris Civil War and how quickly Kerensky taught his units such as the Lyran Patriots who became part of his reconnaissance units.)
Thus we can only say
Initially – the Clans have the Technological edge – they however do not have the numbers for a war of attrition – their fighting style is that of the Blitzkrieg (Lightning war) – anything else such as protracted war is completely against their norm -
Their lack of support vehicles and personnel for a protracted war completely puts them at a disadvantage as they will need to move their drop-ships constantly in order to support their ground forces (including medical, logistical and technical) – which will make their drop-ships a primary target upon any battlefield – a point they have never been trained for.
In addition the Clans have complete lack of understanding when it comes to fighting insurgents as well as providing an adequate security force for any garrison – they may be able to capture worlds but there is no way they can hold them form the ravagers of a protracted insurgent war – in addition their PGCs are too few and too poorly maintained to adequately put up a defense against any serious IS relief force.
Lastly is the issue of what happens when an individual from a Closed Totalitarian society is introduced to an open liberal society such as the IS? What happens when they are attacked by IS psy-ops units – they do not have the training to recognize when their values are being subverted.
The issue of warships however must be worked out in advance – either the IS have them also or you will have an atomic war in space – these are the only two scenarios open.
Initially the IS have numbers and they have vehicles – though their mechs and aerospace fighters can be considered to be subpar - however IS forces can steal and they can reverse engineer, so any advantage the Clans have technologically will be quickly negated within a span of 10 -15 years (this could even be less!).
The IS can fight a war of attrition – they can negate the clans Blitzkrieg tactics – they can use insurgent war tactics to reduce their garrison numbers quickly – they can come together quickly and reform the star league far quicker than that of the Canon writings – they can unleash warfare on a scale the Clans have never even considered – even with a Trial of absorption or annihilation they have no idea the scale of destruction the IS is willing to inflict.
There are just too many holes within the current history that have never been explained fully!
The history as written has yet to come anywhere near as close as it should be to accurately reflect this war and all its dimensions – as is it is just too bland and one dimensional to be considered a viable historical document.
In my opinion:- The re-write of af all history from 3039 is a required necessity for the game to remain and to expand – less it be considered just a child’s game for the foreseeable future!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/14/20 04:15 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Again, the only two scenarios is only for the alt. There are other ways to deal with the warships. In canon, the nukes are just plain dirty junk. Other capital missiles are better in damage, and don't cause glowing things around it.
The developers seem to have selective amnesia when it comes to the own, or maybe the novel writers, ideas. More then a few should have been done/used, and were left out or retconned back in, once they realized they missed it.
Now with the alt, changing ANYTHING before the invasion means an entirely different outcome. Taking the CC in the 4th war/3039 war changes the whole situation of the IS. Not just the extra units, but the fact that the FWL may well have been a little more active in the defense of the IS before the Dragoon meeting. I think the special mechs made in the CC would not have been done, nor would their warship designs come out.
With the Achilles dropship manufacturing, you could well use your pocket warships with them. They are fast enough to get within range to fire off their weapons. The additional regiments of fighters also would change the outcome of most, if not all the battles for the IS.
Not only removing the warship threat, but taking out dropships is another big step. No forces on the ground if they can't reach at least orbit.
Then actually having the vehicles fighting along side the IS mechs would change a lot too.
Then comes the added advantage of not having so many units destroyed with the DC in the 3039 war. There is a good chance the clans would have gotten maybe 3 jumps in, then got stopped cold by the houses, not comstar, and then pushed back out.
And again. Rewriting the game without fixing the rules and things before 3025 that needs to be done, will only cause further issues with a new story, or even fixing the numbers and such from the current one.
The entire issue of no advanced tech making it to the 3025 era, including designs and such is a bit much.
Then again, what were the mechs in the league like that the 3025 mechs were downgraded copies of?
As the League was supposed to be that advanced, and should have had all the toys in everything they could, to 'keep ahead of the houses' there is a lot missing. It is highly unlikely that the only units to be housed in caches were the bottom of the tech line units that exactly match the 3025 era models. Just not going to happen.
So the entire history, including the Star League itself has continuity and logic problems.
|
Requiem
03/14/20 06:06 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Quote:
There are other ways to deal with the warships.
1. Other Warships;
2. Aerospace fighter with nukes;
3. ?
So number 3 is the Achilles with capitol missiles …… and with 4. a big wing aerospace fighter assault what missile will assist in tackling a warship?
Quote:
…..changing ANYTHING before the invasion means an entirely different outcome.
Correct.
Quote:
I think the special mechs made in the CC would not have been done, nor would their warship designs come out.
It would be up to individual GM’s to decide what is in / out ……
Quote:
taking out dropships is another big step.
I have to read of any security forces for their grounded dropships – they are wide open for capturing – if they leave their doors open whist on the ground even a commando unit could take them ….. then how are their units supported whist on the ground? …. Do they send in more dropships or do they just leave them there running around the planet?
Quote:
Then actually having the vehicles fighting along side the IS mechs would change a lot too.
Where were the vehicles in the Canon setting? If used correctly IS forces should have won far more battles than given – Clan forces would have had to drastically increased their bids and as for their elementals far more should have been killed off - considering the numbers they entered the IS with I doubt a single elemental would have been alive by the end of the third wave if infantry units were using all their support weapons correctly.
Quote:
There is a good chance the clans would have gotten maybe 3 jumps in, then got stopped cold by the houses, not comstar, and then pushed back out.
Correct – the Clans must change tactics to the IS way of fighting – they must have support vehicles – they must reduce the length of their Logistics chain to something more reasonable – and they must change their system of creating Warriors from a sibko to something else or the will never have the numbers the IS does.
Quote:
Rewriting the game without fixing the rules and things before 3025 that needs to be done, will only cause further issues with a new story, or even fixing the numbers and such from the current one.
One point in time must be chosen and from there it must be followed throughout time so that logistics and available numbers can be determined correctly – but this will also necessitate actual Jumpship and dropships figures / class for every unit / merchant group / house – shortly thereafter you will have a mathematicians nightmare when attempting to calculate what is going on month to month / year to year – there needs to some simplicity when it comes to numbers (such as logistics) – and yet there also needs to be an understanding of how logistics are distributed, where they are stockpiled in vast quantities so that they can be broken down into manageable numbers so that they get to every unit .
A point that should have been included – taking out logistical hubs are a primary attack point after all.
Also recruit numbers and where are they trained – these too should have been included as well as the possibility of increasing the size of these schools when needed in the future …..
Quote:
The entire issue of no advanced tech making it to the 3025 era, including designs and such is a bit much.
The entire concept of the entire IS slipping into the dark ages is a bit much – removing every worlds / academies / universities libraries / every businesses training facilities etc. is not possible unless every world was hit with massive nuclear attacks in which every world was blasted back to the stone age all at once …..
Quote:
Then again, what were the mechs in the league like that the 3025 mechs were downgraded copies of?
Royal Mechs – what about Project Phoenix – 3020 Improved Jump Jets – Super Griffin – double heat sinks and a jump of 180m and then the illegal variant 270m – why did it become obsolete? Why wasn’t this technology brought back in the future for fighting the Clans?
Quote:
there is a lot missing.
Agree …. The game creates many technological advancements (from the Star League) and yet in the future for both the IS and the Clans it is just not there - for example when it discusses the Star league’s aerospace pilots / Mechwarrior Pilots uniforms and it goes into how these interrelate with their machines sensor suites so that it makes you the pilot almost one with your machine ….. what happened here?
Quote:
So the entire history, including the Star League itself has continuity and logic problems.
Yes …. Way too many once you delve into all the books – to correct every misstate they would have to start from scratch pre Amaris and work forward.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/14/20 08:09 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The game has other missiles besides nukes. For canon, they are better then nukes.
Ground batteries, such as the original Star League had is another. Even massed battle sats, like the DC was making would do. Granted, getting the battle sats made is an issue.
Now the context of the sentence about taking out the clans dropships: Not only removing the warship threat, but taking out dropships is another big step. No forces on the ground if they can't reach at least orbit.
This means BEFORE they can even deploy troops. Not after they are grounded. You can save that for when the IS starts pushing the clans back, and they can't get airborne with them.
shortly thereafter you will have a mathematicians nightmare when attempting to calculate what is going on month to month / year to year
Yet you said that doing so was easy as a spread sheet would allow it. So which is it? Easy or hard? This flip flopping is where the issues are coming from.
Without even going into the slide, the IS should have had better tech, as all those League caches found across the IS should have had the higher tech items in it. There is no way a League Locust would be the same exact thing as the 3025 Locust, for example. The canon story basically says it shouldn't be. The League's units were far better then the 3025 units line of thought..
And with all those caches being found, there had to be SOME reverse engineering and such to allow recovery of things that did get lost.
A 3025 Commando is the same thing as the 2750 version?
The Royal mechs should not have been that much more upgraded then the regular line mechs the SL used. Unless it was some new tech coming out, like a better range and damage er/pulse weapon, or maybe missiles systems that were better then streaks. Maybe something that used larger missiles for more damage, but has a smaller ammo bin.
There is an example of the SL coolant suit for mech warriors in the game. Only Comstar had them though. Which in itself is bs. The clans would have had them, and probably improved upon them as well. But that would mean the tech line would have had to have been done long before it was put out. Not retconned in, and making a mess as it did. But that goes with all the advanced tech ideas.
As you would suspect the black boxes came from the intel department, the question is WHO actually built them? Or used them?
Guessing doesn't answer the basic question. And with that, they were found in the periphery during Katrina's run from her uncle. Did the SL even make them? Was it a secret tech the Rim Worlds had to bypass the Leagues control of the HPG?
|
Requiem
03/15/20 05:35 AM
101.185.93.54
|
Quote:
The game has other missiles besides nukes. For canon, they are better then nukes.
Such as?
Quote:
Even massed battle sats, like the DC was making would do.
As long as they are armed with the naval weapon with the greatest range – as if you bring in a warship with a weapon that has a greater range than a battle sat you can just stand off and obliterate them one and a time with absolute impunity.
Quote:
dropships
Orbital drop …. Drop-ships are only allowed to land for logistics / repair purposes only and must then return to orbit until they are called on to return by their units on world?
Every time they come down / go up IF forces will send in fighter attack – what if the IS is able to hide artillery units and when they are landed they come under attack!
Quote:
mathematicians nightmare
Yes it is a mathematicians nightmare and yes it can be put upon a spread sheet – however getting people to agree with all the assumptions will never occur – no to people will agree with the underlying assumptions.
Quote:
the IS should have had better tech
Agree …. there needs to a dedicated update of technology list …. As well as an explanation as to where it came from where it was reverse engineered and when it underwent mass production …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/15/20 11:57 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The Kraken Missile is over 2 times more effective then the Santa Ana. 10 points verse the 4 for the nuke. The Killer Whale is the same damage as the nuke, without the mess.
The example of the naval weapons range is the case for all battles where one side it trying to minimize damage to their forces. Sit at range and fire while the enemy can't fire back. But it doesn't lessen the fact that it is true. Same thing with a massive fort. You try to get in forces that out range it, and pound away. As the fort(battlesat) can't really move, then you have the advantage. So that means you make the satellites with the longer range weapons, but even that doesn't mean victory. The enemy probably has better armor, and far more weapons then your satellites do. And you can pull back to repair. Massing the sats is another issue, as the enemy came just move out of your coverage. But it is at least something.
You could use atmospheric craft for hitting dropships as well, if you can detect them in time. Say a squadron of 18 mechbuster fighters could well bring down any dropship rather quickly. Doing this two or three times, would force all of their dropships be guarded by fighters. Which means scrambling to get them allowed into the forces, then sent to the IS. Which for some clans, isn't going to be enough. Mech and elementals being the primary focus of most, so fighter pilots isn't in huge supplies.
The issue of not all will agree with the assumptions made in the numbers, may well be one of the reasons the developers didn't make a list of unit assets for even each year. And to be honest, I don't think they could. The Jumpship count can not even come close, as it would show that their little 'lack' of them isn't correct. Otherwise, the periphery would be dead. Most don't make jumpships, and if the need were that great, the houses would be confiscating them for their own purposes.
Now add to it, those that do, would be invaded in those systems that do make them.
As a side note, this would remove pirates for the most part. There would still be some, but not as many.
|
Requiem
03/16/20 06:09 AM
101.185.93.54
|
Killer Whale – year available 3051 (FC) – 50 tons
Kraken Missile – year available 3057 – 220 tons
Can someone explain how a HE warhead has the same damage as that of a nuclear warhead?
Wouldn’t fortresses have their own artillery – so dueling artillery – also conventional bombers access to these alone can defeat an artillery battery.
Yes I agree conventional aircraft can take on a Dropship – the issue however – how many turns do you get before they reach your altitude limit?
Quote:
so fighter pilots isn't in huge supplies.
Disagree … when canon books state that every world have conventional fighters they also must have the pilots to use them.
Quote:
The issue of not all will agree with the assumptions made in the numbers, may well be one of the reasons the developers didn't make a list of unit assets for even each year. And to be honest, I don't think they could.
I believe they could, but the arguments that would evolve from this would be never ending …. Hence no numbers.
I agree however – the peripheries access to jumpships over time would decrease as the Great Houses would steal them for their own use …. And yes pirate numbers will decrease …..
So maybe the number of jumpships should be far more than given and every house is able to create more and in mass numbers so that the periphery will have access to Jumpships in numbers …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/16/20 01:22 PM
66.74.60.165
|
First off, dropships require time to do some things. But I was thinking more of hitting the dropships as they descend to a world, not so much as lift off. Grounded, those ships would make even a bigger target, though the forces they have might counter that.
Mech and elementals being the primary focus of most, so fighter pilots isn't in huge supplies.
Full sentences helps when trying to figure out meanings. The Mech and Elementals being the primary focuse, should tell you that was meant for the clans not having the fighter pilots in huge supply. The IS would have more then a few waiting or could be sent/trained.
We also had the discussion of how a real nuke would/should do more damage then an HE or other type of missile. Game rules for canon.
The range example was for naval weapons, not conventional ones like artillery. Still annoying that they had ground batteries in the original SL, yet nothing is allowed in the clan invasion and beyond? Only the attacker has access to things like this, to make it harder for the defenders to return the favor.
We already know the stated numbers is far too low to even begin to keep the IS working. Some are not even owned by the houses, but private investors, which would account for more then hinted at with the 2000-3000 range.
Also, a point that needs to be made. Some periphery states make jumpships. The monolith production from the old jumpships and dropships, suggests they are made 2 ships in 3 years. That is the largest jumpship in normal production. Not sure how many are lost in combat, but for 30 years, that is 20 jumpships. Not a huge number, but what should be the extreme end of making them. Resources were said to be a limiting factor.
|
Requiem
03/16/20 02:59 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Quote:
Grounded, those ships would make even a bigger target.
Grounded and ….
• Unloading military forces; or
• Logistics – repair and refit services.
Available security forces need to be considered.
Also if they are just unloading military forces – how long does it take – and once embarked will they then return to space to await being called for a logistics run – ie. the time they are on planet can be considered a short period of time.
I agree the number of clan fighter pilots to that of IS fighter / bomber pilots should be a vast difference in numbers – thus the issue of gaining air superiority for many IS Vs. Clan battles should be taken into doubt.
I also believe if the IS has access to naval weapons they should be allowed as Ground based artillery against warships in low orbit attempting an orbital bombardment. In addition Capital missile silos should also be allowed upon the worlds and be used against any warship within their proximity.
Though the main issue is that the majority of all battles written are just Mech on Mech fights – they forget the IS have vehicles, VTOLS, Infantry and conventional fighters – it is just too unbelievable to consider the Clans could stand up to these forces whilst attempting to fight on a planetary scale.
If Periphery states can make jumpships – why didn’t a Successor state attempt to annex it as they are just that precious, wouldn’t it be worth annexing an entire Periphery state just so they could control this one vital facility? …. And once under their control, and with production increase measures, how many more could manufactured form 1 ship every 18 months to one a year so that is 30 in 30 years or could they even double this to 60 in 30 years – how many more units could they move to the front if they had such a resource – how would this increase their merchant navy capability (ability to trade).
Could such a number reduce the resource gap for other facilities – we will never know as the economics of a Successor state is beyond our ability to compute.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/16/20 05:44 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The only thing I can say about how long it takes is by some of the fluff in the jumpship and dropship book as well as some novels and other books.
The dropships have to turn off their main drive in order to debark units on the ground. It said it takes a few hours to refire the engines when the go to take off, yet you see so many dropships touch down, load up a few mechs, then launch again. Part of the writers ignoring, or not being told how things go.
There is also in those books that it says it could be 20 minutes on up to 2 or more hours to load, depending on dropship and units being done. Unloading was said to be about half that time.
From the stories, it seems clan dropships stay grounded. Those involved in the truce war did, and I do not remember anywhere,other then in trials, the dropship was needed, and didn't stay after dropping off the combatants.
Take the ground based naval weapons one step further. They can target dropships. Which is probably why they didn't allow any to be done, except in the video games. So more inconsistent bs.
I don't remember where it is, but the TC had a jumpships manufacturer in their main center, and I want to say the MoC had one.
|
Requiem
03/17/20 04:57 PM
101.185.93.54
|
Jump-ships
First – turn off their drives and then disembark – Hours to cool down and then you can launch;
Second – park and idle the engine – depending on the Drop-ship disembark (20 min to 2 hours) then just launch back into space;
Third – grounded others remain in space;
So it is up to the player to decide what their drop-ships will do? Or is up to the GM?
Ground-based naval lasers
Sooner or later they will have to become a staple weapon upon the majority of important worlds.
If both the TC and the MoC cam manufacture jumships why wouldn’t one of the successor states near them invade – it shouldn’t take all that long and it really shouldn’t be that damaging.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/18/20 12:10 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The issue with the TC is where it's at and the main cluster of their realm. The core is supposed to be surrounded with asteroids and such, that it is very risky to jump in without exact coordinates. And the TC isn't going to just sit by and let that happen.
I have to find out if the objective raids is correct, or what other sources had the MoC. Objective raids doesn't say either has them, but this would counter another source book.
The MoC would likely be left alone, as they were on the border of FWL and CC. I think the MoC had agreed to sell some to those houses, so kept them from doing much with them. With other, more powerful and hostile forces on the opposite sides of those realms, they might have decided to just stick with that.
The big problem with naval ground batteries is the same thing with having the harsh space force. The game would have to lose the mech as the main focus of the game. Something the developers don't want, and more then a few players would hate. As this isn't a space game per se, it would destroy a lot of the base players. Same thing with VTOLS and such.
|
Requiem
03/18/20 06:26 AM
101.185.93.54
|
Quote:
The issue with the TC
It does not matter if it is surrounded by asteroids – a jumpship can jump just outside in open space and move in under its own power.
Quote:
The MoC
Why didn’t the CC invade – the MoC is right on top of them
Quote:
The game would have to lose the mech as the main focus of the game
Doubtful – unless you can fire horizontally with a naval laser taking out whole mountains in the process – given their mass – doubtful.
Thus as they are in the up position permanently the Mech should still be allowed to land outside of their line of sight and then hoof it in an attempt to penetrate their security force and then destroy / capture the weapon.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/18/20 11:02 AM
66.74.60.165
|
It does not matter if it is surrounded by asteroids – a jumpship can jump just outside in open space and move in under its own power.
Think about what you just types. A jumpship is NOT going to even try to maneuver thru an asteroid field. At least in the older books it said going thru there in maneuverable dropships was dangerous enough. It is why the TC was the hardest to conquer. Those outside of the cluster were bad enough, but those inside were aided by the lack of easy way to get forces inside.
Still don't seem to understand the Piranha Effect it seems. The CC had the FWL and FS on their borders. To hit the MoC, they would have to remove forces from some where. Moving units would attract attention, and possibly get several raids on up to invasions going. This is not even going into worlds revolting or even just major protests to shut them down. The FWL might have been able to do it, but the little states in it were all over the board, and would not organize to do so.
On a side note, I can't find out where it said they had one. I have seen where it says they make the Leopard dropships. That would explain why they could not do much to invade the IS. 4 mechs and 2 fighters per ship? And how many dropships of what type would be needed for a battalion of troops to be sent?
The land outside the weapons firing arc is possible, as long as they don't have all the arcs covered. The big issue with this is orbiting the planet. From the sounds of it, all dropships do several orbits around a work and it isn't a geosyncronus orbit. I would suspect that is just normal landing procedures, and you should be able to change it, but I don't know.
And the permanently up position for the ground guns wouldn't happen. They have to fire in a full arc to the horizon. And it might be semantics, but they can fire along the ground. They just can't target anything smaller then a dropship. You could very well defend the emplacement from mechs with gun emplacements and vehicles. Art batteries with good spotters is another element to this. Fighters would be a bit more difficult to stop from doing damage, as they can fly in fast, hit and run. Even defending fighters can't really slow them down to take them out quick enough.
|
Requiem
03/20/20 12:35 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Jumpship can move towards and then send the Dropships through – from any angle plus this is a huge sphere – there is no way the asteroids can cover all of this sphere …. There must be gaps ….
Question – what age would either CC, FWL or FS his the MoC? As when it was attacked will determine their response …..
Considering the number of units the number of units the FS has at certain times they should have had more than enough to hold both the DC and the CC off whilst taking the MoC.
The FWL or the CC however would be difficult ……
Remember there are massive variants per dropship class – the union alone is supposed to have twelve ….
Quote:
I would suspect that is just normal landing procedures, and you should be able to change it, but I don't know.
New rules would be required for this …..
In addition with a complete and thorough explanation would also be required …..
So until then, home rules?
Quote:
they just can't target anything smaller then a dropship.
Not so – establish a grid system for all the area around the gun – in the enemy goes into a grid then fire for effect with a wide beam then just work out the chance of hitting anything in that grid – considering the power of the energy discharge even a near hit would cause massive damage due to the thermal discharge.
As for fighters this would be very difficult to hit ….. especially when they are moving extremely fast ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/20/20 02:14 AM
66.74.60.165
|
There are gaps. Unstable and require maneuverable ships to get thru, hence no jumpships. And it is possible to have asteroids around the entire area. This isn't a mine field, but debris from the area forming naturally. Most single star systems tend to pull stuff towards the plane that all planets tend to follow. That is where the statement of not surrounding is true. But it is not absolute. I don't know the whole story of the area, just what was printed a long time ago.
The CC had the FWL and FS to deal with. They could not afford to pull forces off their borders to think about hitting the MoC.
The FS could not pull enough forces off their borders with the DC and CC in order to really do more then raids on the TC.
The FWL might be able to hit the MoC, as the CC and LC could be stalemated for a while. The lack of coordination or cooperation was the problem. Some in then FWL had trade agreements with the MoC, and would fight against any sort of attack by the others.
If the union example was to answer the Leopard Dropship statement, a max of 6 mechs can be put into one, but that means removing the fighters. As the MoC only builds Leopards, they would have to buy ships from somewhere to even think of invading other realms. Even defense is a nightmare with just using those ships.
Larger ships have more flexibility. That is for sure. But the Leopard isn't really one of them.
I was the one that has said you should be able to use the naval weapons on ground targets, but having tunnels/chasms cut out by the weapon, so you just shoot down that position. It would be preset, and fill the entire opening with fire. It just isn't in the rules, and I doubt it ever will be. Too easy to defend positions like that.
One more weapon that doesn't seem like it would make a comeback. An airburst style that doesn't need to strike an aircraft, just explode in proximity. Capital missiles comes to mind. Take out fighters with this style. But it prevents ground battles as well, since you can't use fighter strikes or even VTOLs to take down defenses.
|
Requiem
03/20/20 03:36 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
And it is possible to have asteroids around the entire area.
Really? – consider the area this would represent ……. How?
Quote:
They could not afford to pull forces off their borders to think about hitting the MoC.
Completely disagree - 1st SW and 2nd SW this could have been achieved also when you use y Alt in defeating the CC they could have easily have secured the FWL border and sent half the attacking force into the MoC following the end of the War.
However as stated in my Alt if you give them assistance you can form an alliance – you could even then purchase half of it rather than invading – and in so doing place a knife in back of the FWL via the MoC
Quote:
It just isn't in the rules, and I doubt it ever will be. Too easy to defend positions like that.
And yet common sense says you can do it.
The Game has allowed them in via the Jihad – thus from then on they should have become common place ….
By restricting them shows a lack of understanding as to the proliferation of military armaments ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/20/20 11:37 AM
66.74.60.165
|
You are talking about a dust cloud in space. There are some that are larger then the Milkyway galaxy. Normally, they are ones that form stars, but not always. Might want to actually read up, or watch a video on the subject.
Unobtainium tech. Only the bad guys can have tech that does things beyond normal, and are more powerful then you can get. Too many games do this.
I don't have a problem with restricting a few things, but keep it restricted. Don't use it and say it isn't possible, or can't be reversed engineered.
And as it seems the questions come, and get answered then the alt is brought up, you are not looking for how or why things happen in the game, you are looking for arguments. Don't ask things then say in the alt it isn't like that.
|
Requiem
03/20/20 01:54 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Asteroids are not the same as a Nebula.
consider
https://nineplanets.org/asteroid-belt/
Also remember Drop-ships can go “over” or “under” the asteroid belt – also our belt in not very dense (average distance of 1 million Kilometers between objects) so there isn’t much to avoid.
So as for the TC’s asteroid belt how dense is the field and is it like ours a plane shape or is it supposed to be a sphere shape, as without this information it becomes very difficult to comprehend what is there.
If technology is brought into the game by TPTB, at any point in time, then how can it remain permanently restricted?
It cannot be!
Over time everything should be able to be reverse engineered – case in point where are all the WoB weapons systems they introduced into the game? – Case in point why does it take so long to create a more advanced anything …. It is like research and development is next to non existent …..
Just saying it is lost to time does not hold water …..someone somewhere should be able to work it out ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/21/20 12:19 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Think about it before you write. If you could go over it, then jumping into the zenith or nadir point would put you above the plane of asteroids. So why would they say it was an issue if this is the case?
Asteroids are part of what makes up a solar system. The only difference between them and a meteor, is asteroids don't fall to earth. Entire galaxies contain fields like this, though they are not the galaxy. Might want to look up the info on the this, as you won't believe me.
The issue with WOB is that not all facilities they used was destroyed. There should be records and even full schematics on some of the items. As was the point with the old Star League tech. There is no way Comstar could have made sure all advanced tech was destroyed. The entire Helm discovery would show this. There had to be others like this.
And the frustrating but true answer to them being able to do what they want, is it is their game to do with as they please. It does cause people to walk away from the game, or do like most and just ignore the rules and do it their way.
So the houses don't invest in clan tech. You damn sure know others will. I seriously doubt Brewer would have said no to making it for Defiance. The periphery would have done so, as they need something to counter the IS and their massive reserves. They don't need millions of them, as they don't have the units to put them in, other then pillboxes and such.
I did learn some about the universe in school so many years ago. Not sure of the junk they are teaching today, or even since then. Also check out the definition for a planet. It goes something like a body orbiting a star that has cleared the debris from it's orbital passing.
|
Requiem
03/21/20 06:43 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
Think about it before you write.
A sphere of asteroids which is very, very dense ….. consider the area ….. consider if the sun’s rays can get through (Permanent winter on any planet there in) or is it so large that it encloses the sun ……
Really?
You might want to look this up …… and Nebula …..
Quote:
The issue with WOB is that not all facilities they used was destroyed. There should be records and even full schematics on some of the items.
And yet all WoB tech just disappeared, just like all the tech from the Star league to just prior to the Helm Memory Core being discovered ……
Quote:
is it is their game to do with as they please….
No it is not ….. it is our game thus we can put this missing tech back in whenever we want for our home games.
There is something every wrong with the game when after many years of the clans being within the IS the Great Houses still do not have a comparable Technology with the Clans - with these new weapons they could have easily inserted them into the IS Omnis that never eventuated at the same time!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/21/20 12:54 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Page 15 of the book The Periphery #1629. Paraphrasing it, basically the Hyades Cluster is surrounded by a think nebula, that obscures all visual sight into the nebula, as well as being surrounded by s massive asteroid field several hundred kilometers wide. Inside there is no less then eight systems linked within each others gravity fields. 37 planetary bodies shunting back and forth between the competing stars.
Also. A nebula can produce it's own light, as the gases are hot and as said before, some produce stars.
For game purposes, this one has a few solar systems in it. As they do have a type called a planet nebula, it is very possible to have planets in one. I don't know if they can have stars in with them, though some nebula are formed from super novas.
Ahhh. Now the correct wording comes out. OUR HOME GAMES.
As said before, you don't own the game, but had the rights to use it's context.
Every game has things wrong with them. At this time, the only matter known to travel faster then light is the neutrino. Ships? We can't get to half lightspeed yet as the fuel consumption is more then the ship can hold. This is being worked on, but until then, it isn't possible for humans to go even light speed much less faster.
A lot of weapons don't exist either. And quick action exoskeletons haven't come about.
Now back to the topic. A lot of TO&Es are annoying as hell, as they have mechs made in rival nations in them. I understand capturing them, but how long do you normally have them in combat? Even the ultra elite pilots get hit from time to time. And this is why I doubt they will ever had a full TO&E that spans even 20 years.
I would like to see the Dragoons after the 4th war. And with this, shouldn't Davion/Kurita have some salvage of Imps, Hornets, and a few others the IS didn't have before the Dragoons arrived?
Oh yeah. The ones without ammo blew up when their reactors were hit. Yet in all of those explosions, the legs remain.
Some units have had complete lances or more be destroyed in combat. The 33rd Avalon Hussers (I believe) were mauled during the Galtor campaign. I seriously doubt they could have gotten all the mechs that were destroyed, in the same models and numbers. Some are not made in FS space. The LC and maybe FWL might sell some, but doubtful the DC and CC would. Relying on salvage isn't going to happen.
But it would be nice to see something like this, as some mercs never seem to lose any units, except tanks and infantry.
The changing out of mechs does change how the unit works, including tactics. Fire support with nothing but short ranged weapons just isn't the same as LRM/LL/PPC carriers. And an assault unit with a company of wasps, stingers and locusts?
|
Requiem
03/22/20 03:53 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
surrounded by s massive asteroid field several hundred kilometers wide.
Ie. donnut shaped – you can go over or under.
Quote:
Inside there is no less then eight systems linked within each others gravity fields. 37 planetary bodies shunting back and forth between the competing stars.
Unless you have a computer program that understands these shunting planetary bodies it will be almost impossible to know its exact location at any given point in time.
This is where the real problem lies – knowing where it should be
However – did anyone consider the weather changes as they shunt around these systems as well as the time for each of these different conditions – agriculture would be incredibly difficult – how you could expect anyone to live in these conditions would be incredibly difficult to understand.
Also what happens on a planetary body when the gravity changes when it shifts from one sun to another has anyone worked this out?
Sorry but this situation requires a book on its own just to explain everything …..
Quote:
TO&E that spans even 20 years.
It comes down to replacement parts – either off the shelf or made by engineers on the spot as a means of fixing – restoration of your Model A Vs the conversion to a hot rod / Rat rod!
Quote:
shouldn't Davion/Kurita have some salvage of Imps, Hornets, and a few others the IS didn't have before the Dragoons arrived?
Yes they should have – and no the legs would not have survived
Quote:
Relying on salvage isn't going to happen.
Depends on the GM and what they say remains ….. ie. how it died will determine the salvage …. it will also be dependent upon when one side retreats from the battle and what its rear echelon security force is ….
Quote:
The changing out of mechs does change how the unit works, including tactics.
Correct – over time all house units should become more standardized to the machines they produce only mercs who travel widely should have a constant access to many different machines from different houses.
And only during wars – raids etc – should a rival house have the chance of acquiring an enemies Mech etc.
And as such these captured variants should be placed in a raiding unit to cause an initial confusion with your enemies Mech Warriors via a visual scan.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/22/20 04:18 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Surrounded doesn't work the same in space as it does on the ground. A speck of dust is surrounded by water and freezes like that to become a snowflake.
And I do agree that the gravity shifts would make jumping into the area a nightmare, if not close to impossible. Growing on the surface would take a lot of time to figure out. This also depends on the cycles of being sent to another star's gravity. If it takes a dozen years, then it isn't as bad as the term 'shunted' sounds. The way it does sound is like the worlds are a pinball in a machine.
It isn't likely there will be even a single arm actuator in stock for a Panther or Vindicator in the FS, even though they are some of the main mechs the enemy uses. There may be a few places, as was said in another thread that someone might do limited runs of this stuff. Probably a border world that sees a lot of raids and such.
It is possible to get them, but relying on salvage isn't going to keep you in parts. The GMs can do what ever in their universes, as you could even build your own factories to do such things, as well as make the units, but in canon, it isn't so likely.
Yes, our group did something like this one time. Didn't like the way canon was setup with a few units, so we modified them, and made them for ourselves, while selling the stock versions to customers. The Jenner and Panther mechs from the DC were nice. Remove the srms out of both, and heatsinks in the jenner and lrms in the panther.
As for changing the way a unit works when getting replacement mechs, most of the time, at least in canon, you dealt with what ever you had. Either that, or you were dispossessed. Even in the LC/FS, you were probably not going to get the mech type you lost in combat. Supplies and such being as they were. Even just a shortage of them would cause issues, such as the factory being damaged. The big one is the Awesome in other nations. From the books, It is only produced in the FWL. Which was stated as having problems making ppcs. Kind of stupid, but just another quirk in the game.
During the 4th war In the novels, the Davion Light guards commander turned down a few good mechs, as they didn't fit in the Light Guard concept. Too heavy. But this just shows you how fast your unit composition changes. I think it is foolish, but I didn't write up the story, or the ideas behind it. Like Zeta battalion in the Dragoons, I seriously doubt they kept the same mechs through out the time they were in the IS. No way to get a brand new Imp, Shogun, and such. For their own versions, a new mech that was bought, would be refitted their way. Which is a waste, but I can see people getting used to a specific set of weapons.
|
Requiem
03/27/20 06:51 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Inner Sphere Military Academy
Consider the size of many American Universities; Their population can reach nearly 60,000 for a graduate to earn a three / four year University degree.
Considering the population size of each House as well as the size of their military forces their Academies could be size of small Cities 300,000 to 600,000 would not be considered unreasonable given the small number of military universities each House has.
In all reality at least 60 - 70% of the graduating class will end up in positions behind the scenes Logistics Support Administration Naval positions on Jump / Drop Ships etc - you would only expect the remainder to be assigned to front line positions
And then there are the Boot Camps – as these were never written into the game the number they could produce is anyones guess.
Given these numbers it is quite conceivable that with every missive requesting logistics requirements you could, as a House Unit, request a personnel number update and upon the next Logistics transport low and behold there they will be.
Something the Clans could never achieve with a Sibko system geared to replacement personnel (on the Clan Home Worlds this may work but within the Inner Sphere this is absolutely useless!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/27/20 12:26 PM
66.74.60.165
|
How many try to join the military and are completely unfit to do anything? Even with behind the scenes jobs, they still have to make it thru physicals and even psychology evaluations. Then some drop out, as they realize this isn't for them.
I am reasonably sure that most academies are no where near full in students most of the time.
Without conscription, in times of war, most people DON'T want to join up, as they would probably be sent to fight. A few would, as they want to get out and shoot others. But that is more of an exception.
The boot camps are written into the game. The training 'battalions' being a good one for those that can't get to the academies, as they are not on every world. The lack of equipment limits this, as well as the planets/regions requirements. But the numbers of what can be produced it a question. I believe most of the training units are using what little reserves the area has, with a few probably being machines assigned to active duty soldiers, so they are not something the trainees will keep upon graduation.
The whole sibko system was not based on high losses in a quick amount of time. The limiting of losses with the trials removed the necessity, as well as the lack of bloodnames that were available. There was no desire to have thousands of candidates for a single name. Waste would be something to consider here, and as stated in the books. The younger warriors were chaffing as the older blood named warriors were not retiring as fast, so they could move up. Had more graduated, this would probably have started a civil war. Much like the world today. Pressures from the masses pushing against the 'elite' few.
|
Requiem
03/27/20 05:55 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
How many try to join the military and are completely unfit to do anything?
This is where a little research would assist in understanding the future, such as the Battletech Universe …. Currently Westpoint accepts 9.6% applications out of every 100; Annapolis accepts 8.4 applications out of every 100;
Then when you compare the populations of a single country to that of hundreds of worlds within a single Successor State mathematical trend analysis indicates some very high numbers. So unless the Military Colleges are restricted in their scope by the size of their infrastructure (Buildings and teaching corp.) the size of these institutions would be staggering.
Also consider the size of the each Successor State Military – what is printed is just the front line forces – ever considered how many people it takes to keep a single person in the front line? At the moment it is approximately 6 – however when you factor in that each successor State’s logistical state is spread over hundreds of worlds this number could quite conceivably be considered a ridiculously low number – in all probability you could be looking at a factor of ten to a hundred times this quite easily due to each world requiring a military presence – not only to advise the local lord but to ensure their militia is operating to a minimal standard and equipped and paid correctly (plus recruitment facilities) etc.
Quote:
The boot camps are written into the game.
Really? Where are they as the game only discusses MechWarrior Training units ……
Quote:
…… as they are not on every world. The lack of equipment limits this
Infantry equipment is a limited …..
Vehicles are a limited in numbers ……..
Conventional Aircraft are limited in numbers …….
Sorry but this must be qualified to each era …. 3020 maybe ….. 3050 and beyond …. No don’t think so when you consider the number on new vehicles and ‘Mechs being produced at the same time – the military industrial complex post 3040 would be ramping up again thus by 3050 would be staggering.
However this will never be quantifiable as again there are no hard numbers thus we are back to making assumptions based upon each GMs underlying belief as to what is going on.
However I would like to say every world (unless very backward) should have their own small arms manufacturer as well as a vehicle manufacturing facility than can convert their vehicles produced into a military vehicle (ICE).
Remember post 3050 the idea of scarce Inner Sphere resources and technology can no longer be conserved a factual statement.
Quote:
The whole sibko system was not based on high losses in a quick amount of time.
Jade Falcon – Officially 1 made it through their trial of position – the other 1 had to be given a second go around to win their position ….
What has been the highest number ever graduated from a single Sibko? Again a number that has NEVER been printed so each GM is back to guessing once more …..
So if this number is considered the Norm the entire number of graduates within Clan Space is next to nothing compared to a Graduating Class at a Military College within the Inner Sphere.
Quote:
Had more graduated, this would probably have started a civil war. Much like the world today.
Consider - Loss depletion report of Clan Warriors within the Inner Sphere ….
As this statement indicates the Clans DO NOT have the numbers to replace the massive amount killed within the Inner Sphere Operations Zone. Over time their limited numbers would force them to retreat – they can in no way win in a war of attrition against the Inner Sphere unless they completely change their society and the way they create their warrior Caste – they need to introduce a vehicle logistics corp – they need a dedicated PGC corp that is 100 times the size it is as written within each Clans 3050 Touman to even be considered an effective garrison force. However that would mean that the Free-births now outnumber the true-born within their military ….
No matter how you look at it the numbers do not add up there are too many holes in the story that cannot be considered factual when exposed to rational thought.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/27/20 11:53 PM
66.74.60.165
|
The Blackjack School of Combat is one such boot camp style academy. It puts out grunts, not mech warriors. I do admit, It might be more suited for infantry officers, but I know they have trained normal infantry.
I want to say they do anti mech infantry.
Again. How many actually try to join, and how many fail even the physical? I would also throw in there, planetary governors and such limiting that even more as they try to promote their children being the best.
Infantry would be higher to be accepted, thought vehicles less likely, with air craft being even more limited. Mechs and space assets even more limited.
I made a poor assumption that we were talking about mechs for the lack of equipment. So that is on me. Each world should have some sort of machining ability, even if it is just to make ammo. Ground vehicles is the most likely armored unit to be built, but that may well require importing the equipment. Limiting arms to potential anti government groups would be the case here. No one thought of a force like the clans coming in. Just other successor states and pirates.
I don't remember where it was stated, but between 0 and 5 is the normal number for warrior graduation. The Jade Phoenix Saga was put in that way, as to promote the story. Aidan was the first to get a retry that I know of. All others were if you fail, you wash out. No do overs. That number may have been in the Jade Falcon series.
The clans could not win a war of attrition, but does that mean the house lords should spend their troopers lives needlessly doing such a combat? Before changing infantry damage, a clan Warhawk could wipe out close to a company of infantry in one volley. Each vehicle destroyed would have between 1 and 8 or so crew members that could well die. And even then, getting to the surface to deploy was an issue. Once combat to take the world was over, the bid to do so was over. There is nothing to really stop them from using any forces available to destroy those ships and units. And with this, the clans should have had pocket warships available to them. As they had the tech and resources, it makes more sense then the IS, which was just coming up with the naval weapons.
|
Requiem
03/28/20 06:42 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
The Blackjack School of Combat is one such boot camp style academy.
A privately run military academy …. being open to any student who could afford the entrance fees
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Jade_Falcon_School_of_Conflict_on_Blackjack
Quote:
How many actually try to join, and how many fail
As per above…. approximately 9 in every 100 are accepted.
Quote:
between 0 and 5 is the normal number for warrior graduation.
Even with 5 per Sibko graduation it is still a ridiculously small amount when it comes to reinforcement numbers ….
Quote:
but does that mean the house lords should spend their troopers lives needlessly doing such a combat?
Needs must as the Devil drives ….
Individual units are one thing, however when you have combat teams that is another …. Especially when they have been trained to work together in as a team.
Quote:
And with this, the clans should have had pocket warships available to them.
When were these ships made?
Just to create the Exodus road you will need – two massive space stations one in Clan Space and the other in the Deep Periphery to form massive pallets of equipment and in the Inner Sphere to Bulk Break them - A massive number of HPG relay stations to communicate from the Hall of Khans to their front line units within the Inner Sphere – A massive number of Potemkin Class ships to transport Logistics to and from Clan Space / Deep Periphery – then a massive number of merchant navy jump-ships and Drop-ships - even with the 50 years from inception to invasion these forces will take time to create.
Quote:
As they had the tech and resources, it makes more sense then the IS, which was just coming up with the naval weapons.
If this is the case …. nuclear war upon the same scale as the First Succession War.
Choose a rough parity when it comes to warships or nuclear Armageddon!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/28/20 12:45 PM
66.74.60.165
|
How fast did the Leviathan go from concept to being built for the Ghost Bears to get their pop to the IS? I am going to assume they decided this just after they entered the FRR, not years in advance. Also, just how many ships can the clans make? And the big one. They are a warrior race that use warships. Why wouldn't they have pocket warships in their exile? Even if it was just the Snow Ravens, it would have been done.
Experimental models? Proof of Concept?
This actually falls under the mechs rule the game. Pocket warships means less chance of ground combat happening.
Again. The sibko was not meant to replace large losses, like what the IS would cause. They were enough to replenish the losses in the trials. And obviously, that wasn't enough for some clans as they lost more and couldn't regain the stock. The fluff even suggests that, like the Hells Horses being forced to use vehicles heavily. The mech warrior numbers couldn't keep up with their losses.
|
Requiem
03/28/20 05:22 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
How fast did the Leviathan go from concept to being built for the Ghost Bears to get their pop to the IS?
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Leviathan_Heavy_Transport_(WarShip_class)
As per Sarna the design was authorized in 3044 and Introduced in 3055 – Passengers 250,000
And this is where the story runs off the rails … when it comes to the numbers required …. only two were being produced with the start of Operation Revival (3049 -50) – with their new Bear Khan shortly into the Invasion construction ground to a halt until Bjorn Jorgensson became Khan (some-time after June 3050)
It would not be until after the Battle of Tukayyid (May 3052) would the Ghost Bear Khans decide to relocate the entire Ghost Bear Clan to their Inner Sphers occupation Zone – as per Canon - at this stage they only had two Leviathans – passengers 500,000.
The population of Clan Ghost Bear (the smallest of all the Clans – ½ the normal population of most and only ¼ to 1/5 the size of the largest Clans) is over 25,000,000 even with 2 Leviathans you would need a fleet in excess of 4 to 5 times the number of ships Kerensky had in his original exodus to move their entire population in one hit.
Even with the all the Clans entire fleets combined you would still not have enough ships!
In this case, whomever, came up with this did not look at the underlying numbers and consider the Logistical requirements to complete the move.
Requisite numbers – as close to 100 - 110 Leviathans as possible – and this is just for the people
You would also need a comparable number of Potemkin Class Transports for their entire technological facilities to be transplanted into the Inner Sphere
So in all reality this plan should have been 50 to 100 year plan (minimum) to construct the fleet (in secret) to even consider the move viable.
Then when you factor in the three months Clan Nova Cat had to vacate the Clan Home Worlds following their Abjuration some-time after 3058 – depending on the size of their population which could be well over 100,000,000 would require a fleet 4 to 5 times that of the Ghost Bears – so where did this fleet magically appear from?
Quote:
Even if it was just the Snow Ravens, it would have been done. Experimental models? Proof of Concept?
When you look at the number of ships / stations required for Operation Revival – these pocket warships would have to be at a minimum 75+ years old (2975). Thus a re-write of Clan history will be required for your game to enable these to be produced – and then stopped (3000) to ramp up for Operation Revival’s logistical requirements.
Quote:
Again. The sibko was not meant to replace large losses, like what the IS would cause. They were enough to replenish the losses in the trials. And obviously, that wasn't enough for some clans as they lost more and couldn't regain the stock.
Then where did all the Invasion Clan’s Warriors come from to keep their units at peak efficiency – the numbers can’t say on the one hand they have a shortage due to sibko numbers and on the other say they can maintain their force numbers at peak numbers throughout the entire war!
Again the numbers show that the favoritism given to the Clans with a completely implausible history based upon what should have been their Loss Depletion Report whist within the Inner Sphere.
Over time the Clans should have imploded due to the amount of losses they were taking – so unless the Initial Clans were replaced by other Clans (Trials of absorption) their invasion should have collapsed and they should have been ejected from the inner sphere!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/29/20 03:24 AM
66.74.60.165
|
So the writers did not fact check their work again. Not a shock. If I remember right, I want to say only 3 Laviathians were used in the move. So just like the original exodus, something is wrong with the numbers. I would think it was the same person that made both mistakes, but that is just a wild idea.
Not sure why the ships would have to be 75 plus years old, and the logistics for the invasion did not start in 3000. It started close to 3047 or so. It would seem they pulled ships out of mothball, or really had a lot of them just sitting around. Yes. Contrary to their hate for waste, they seem to have more jumpships then an IS nation, like the CC.
As the Dragoons had a 'mobile' station, it isn't that far fetched to think they just took a few from around clanspace and put them into the supply chain. Each of the initial invading clan seemed to have a few along their routes. The Northwind Highlanders found on one such station. On the surface of it. So each clan seemed to move their own supplies.
As there is nothing to say how fast the clans can build these items, it seems to imply, it was faster then the SL did before Amaris. Or they just had so many being underused, they just put them in service.
|
Requiem
03/29/20 05:58 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
So the writers did not fact check their work again. Not a shock.
The problem is having two Leviathans or over a hundred will make a massive difference to any Navy.- and as a consequence a massive difference to the ongoing story.
When you consider the Nova Cats could have had some 400 Leviathans it is a real game changer for the story – the entire Jihad era would be a non event as these two fleets alone could have hunted down and attacked any WoB favy that was attempting to blockade any House Capital. The entire story would have had to shift to accommodate for these massive fleets. And in so doing there should have been a shift in the game from Mechs to Warships ……
Plus where does all these ships spring from? If a complete shift in population is required you are looking at 100 years plus to make these two fleets minimum!
This is not a small error! it changes everything! ….. if the Ghost Bears only have a capacity for 2-3% of their entire population to be transported to the Inner Sphere, the remainder would have to remain on the Clan Home Wolds and be absorbed into a rival clan – once within the Inner Sphere these clans would have to be absorbed into one of the great houses – in this case the FRR – they would then have to use the FRR population to rebuild their society. Therefore these Clans would have had to become an amalgam of the House they reside within and the Clan they once were ……
So Clan Ghost Bear become part of the FRR military and their people become part of the FRR society – they would over time be absorbed into their culture!
And the same can be said of Clan Nova Cat – their society should have, over time, be absorbed into the DC – something similar to the monks seen on the old samurai films ….
Why? They just do not have the population to stave off being absorbed because they do have the transports necessary to transport their populations to the Inner Sphere.
Either way the entire Canon story would need a massive shift to accommodate the accuracy of either story – from these two points onwards the entire Canon story would be needed to be thrown out and rewritten to accommodate for these errors.
Quote:
Not sure why the ships would have to be 75 plus years old, and the logistics for the invasion did not start in 3000. It started close to 3047 or so.
Question at a minimum you will need how many HPG ships / stations to be created to accommodate for their communication of information from the IS front lines to the Hall of Khans.
Equally there must also be a massive number of Levithan Logistics Carriers.
So any pocket warships would have had to been created before any ramp up o invade the Inner Sphere – ie. 75 years prior to 3050 (minimum) to design and build the pocket warship as from 3000 onwards all shipyards would have to be transferred over to the creation of the above + Merchant ships + Dropships
And yes they do have warship shipyards – those ships that came on the original exodus and have been assigned to one clan or another …..
As for numbers of ships – they have what was assigned to the exodus plus whatever was created less those they lost along the way or within Clan Space due to naval engagements.
Quote:
it isn't that far fetched to think they just took a few from around clanspace and put them into the supply chain. Each of the initial invading clan seemed to have a few along their routes…... On the surface of it. So each clan seemed to move their own supplies.
First, why would one clan assist with another Clans logistics requirements? What’s in it for them?
Second, Waste – if each clan is transporting their own logistics requirements this would mean there a seven clan fleets going back and forward at any one time – wouldn’t it be more efficient to have just one fleet of Potemkins and then at the Deep Periphery end each invading clan picks up their goods and transports it to their warehouses / front lines?
Quote:
As there is nothing to say how fast the clans can build these items, it seems to imply, it was faster then the SL did before Amaris. Or they just had so many being underused, they just put them in service.
100 Leviathans in the span of a couple of years? How big is the Clans shipyards and how many people are assigned to just making ships? If this was the case they wouldn’t have enough people to make any Mechs!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/29/20 01:08 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Talking about being absorbed into another society, the FRR is a bad one to use as an example. They were part of the DC and FC for hundreds of years. Yet they never lost their identity. I do agree that the trueborns would begin to lose control over the rest once they hit the decadent ways of the IS.
Also, the rulers tend to make things go their way. Simple reservations and that style of idea will come about.
The question of ships and how fast/many can be produced at a time needs to have something solidly printed. Which isn't going to happen, as it would bring about more loop holes that they don't seem to want to deal with.
As pocket warships can be used to transport items, it would not necessarily be put off to the side. It may well be increased if they thought they would run into IS warships, which for some reason, the clans didn't know the IS didn't have, but knew a few smaller details. Yes. TPTB set it up so they could do the bombardment and threats.
The clans had so many caches with units in them it isn't funny. And it seems their production can pump them out. I don't think they started making things for the invasion more then a few years before the actually vote to go ahead. They used existing units and ships to do it. I only seen information about bringing them up to numbers, not adding new ones. As sneak raids did not happen in the clans, they could well have been sitting on stockpiles of ammo and repair parts since the time they arrived at the pentagon worlds. The stations and HPGs do pose a small issue. But then they did have a large production ability, as well as the caches, it is possible they had a few HPGs in storage, or built them after the vote. Then again, it is possible, each world had several of them to contact each other without having to move one, and they took the excess with them. There are options. Some more likely then others. It is possible they waved a magic wand and created a whole new clan the size of the original SLDF.
Think about what you said with clans helping each other. Isn't that what would happen if they had one station load up ships to send and another where all the clans supplies were at? Which was a defense used to justify keeping them together.
And with this, what would prevent one clan from bidding to take the one station from the rest, so they could stop the others from getting their supplies?
Waste? Yeah, it does seem like a big waste. But each clan would have their own supplies and time tables for when it gets there. The wolves used theirs for the advanced depots. From the Northwind novel, we know the clans had separate lines for supplies, which would mean each would not rely on one. Which in it's own way is completely against military protocols. One supply route means all lose supplies if it gets hit. But then that means the idea of hitting them becomes that much harder to do much to hurt them all.
Not sure why you are stuck on the Leviathans for moving the populace. Their big claim to fame is being one of the newest and biggest ship at the time. There were plenty of other ships in clan space that wasn't used, and hiring the merchants to move their pop is a very viable alternative. And as shown in the fluff/novels, it wasn't done all in one large convoy fleet. This is less of an issue then the original exodus fleet. At least there were other ships that can be used. The Snow Ravens may well have 'rented' out some of their ships to do this.
|
Requiem
03/29/20 03:29 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
the FRR is a bad one to use as an example.
Considering the fleet number of ships the Ghost Bears could practically put together reality would suggest they could transfer somewhere around 750,000 every year if they use the bulk of their merchant fleet in addition with the two Leviathan ships they do have every year – that is unless they can manufacture more Leviathans .
So what happens to a population of less than one million if it is surrounded by billions? Native American Vs Colonists – they may be able to keep some of their culture but it will never be the same as what it was.
Quote:
the rulers tend to make things go their way
Modern history would say otherwise – last 70 years the proliferation of uprisings to be rid of totalitarian governments that do not look after the needs of their citizens have been falling like dominoes. If the bulk of the True Born go FRR native the Ghost Bear culture will not survive for a long period time.
Quote:
The question of ships and how fast/many can be produced at a time needs to have something solidly printed.
Inner sphere production numbers have been quoted – and yet Clan numbers have not yet been printed.
Quote:
if they thought they would run into IS warships, which for some reason, the clans didn't know the IS didn't have,
If the 3019-20 missive was accurate the Clans would have known that as at this time period the Inner Sphere states no longer had the capability to manufacture warships – so unless something changed in the following 30 years they souldnt have any at all!
And given their historical documents the Clans should have known the loss of their ability to manufacture these ships was via nuclear armaments.
Is it really that hard of a stretch to believe that if the Clans use their warships within the Inner Sphere against any military / civilian target the Inner Sphere wouldn’t turn to nuclear weapons once more?
This again shows some really bad writing – when you create a culture / individual you have to stick with them you just cannot change their society because it becomes inconvenient at another point in time.
The DC are modern Samurai – if you do not understand what that means find someone who does …. Or how about cracking open a WW2 history book?
Quote:
I only seen information about bringing them up to numbers, not adding new ones.
Correct, they only used what was on hand they did not establish whole new units expressly built for the invasion – which is complete lunacy – no one gave any thought to garrisoning numbers. The Clans are so blinkered as to their own society they never even considered the possibility that non-warriors would engage in armed warfare against a garrison unit.
TPTB have favored the Clans over the Inner Sphere for far too long and it is time they are made accountable for their actions.
Quote:
As sneak raids did not happen in the clans, they could well have been sitting on stockpiles of ammo and repair parts since the time they arrived at the pentagon worlds.
Agree – also the idea that the Wolves could establish stockpiles of ammunition / spare parts in advance of their front line forces so that when they did reach these planets there would be a stockpile waiting for them is completely insane – do they think the Inner Sphere could not detect incoming drop-ships who then hide themselves? This has been the standard operating procedure for every battle within the inner sphere for the past two centuries – in reality one or more of these stockpiles should have fallen into Inner Sphere hands.
Quote:
Think about what you said with clans helping each other. Isn't that what would happen if they had one station load up ships to send and another where all the clans supplies were at?
Logistically in the interest of waste management – yes they would have no choice but to work together.
They would also have no choice but to work together for the creation of the HPG station network along the exodus road and into each invasion corridor.
However, when it comes to their military and their targets – the Clans are strictly – you eat what you kill and what you kill is yours and no others type of philosophy.
This is why the idea of the Clans and ComStar forming an alliance is such an anathema – the Clans can ONLY form an alliance with another warrior society who is of equal strength to them – in order to gain their respect you would have to defeat them in combat first – thinking that a quasi religious order would be able to gain the respect of the warrior society of the Clans is not considered, in my opinion, to be plausible.
Quote:
what would prevent one clan from bidding to take the one station from the rest, so they could stop the others from getting their supplies?
Nothing – just a declaration for a Trial of Possession.
Quote:
One supply route means all lose supplies if it gets hit. But then that means the idea of hitting them becomes that much harder to do much to hurt them all.
However, TPTB never allowed ANY Inner Sphere unit to go after any of the clans logistics networks either close to the deep periphery or into the deep periphery!
From a military point of view does this make any sense whatsoever? Sorry but to me this again has no real plausibility in real world tactics!
Quote:
Not sure why you are stuck on the Leviathans for moving the populace. Their big claim to fame is being one of the newest and biggest ship at the time. There were plenty of other ships in clan space that wasn't used, and hiring the merchants to move their pop is a very viable alternative.
Agree, however the issue comes back to the same issue discussed I the original exodus – given the air production filters built into a single ship they must be a maximum human occupancy level per ship / drop-ship that said to transport 250,000 people how many other types of ships would it take to equal what a single Leviathan can do? 50 ships would not be an unreasonable figure – could a single clan therefore put together a fleet of this size and not be noticed by the other Clans? I would say No.
In all reality the less the number of ships the greater the security – so if you can create many Leviathans in secret you have a better chance of extricating your population form Clan space to the Inner Sphere. However as they only had two they could only move 1-2% of their population of 25,000,000 maximum even with their entire fleet in one convoy
Original Exodus Fleet – 6,000,000 people – 1,349 Jumpships and 402 Warships and over 5,000 Drop-ships
Now time this by 5
Ghost Bear fleet over 25,000,000 people plus their entire industry – 6,745 Jumpships, 2010 warships, 25,000 Drop-ships
And this is just for the Ghost Bears
When you factor in the Nova Cats this could be 4 times higher for their exodus depending on their population size!
Thus in order to keep things realistic you could have just 100-110 Leviathans for the transport Vs 8,000 ships noted above.
This is why I consider the fleet would need a mass Leviathan transport when it comes to moving mass populations – and this is why the Ghost Bears must have been planning this from the initial Invasion Plan in 3000 – it gives them the time they need to create such a fleet.
Plus the Snow Ravens and the Nova Cats (at the minimum) must have been in on the plan from the get go – there must have been a secret shipyard manned by a secret population of workers who mass produced a vast amount of ships to enable this project to be viable – there really is no other viable alternative to moving the Ghost bears Population of 25,000,000 and who knows how many the Nova Cat population was ….. up to 120,000,000 was the maximum at that historical stage for the Clans.
So ten Leviathan ships per year for 50 years? Or leave behind the majority of your population as the warriors and their ilk leave behind the majority of their Free-born?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (03/29/20 03:33 PM)
|
ghostrider
03/30/20 03:57 AM
66.74.60.165
|
Using the FRR to argue that the clans would be absorbed into the locals, is a bad thing. They never were absorbed into the DC. So that is a fact against the Bears having it happen.
Modern history has uprisings happening, because other nations are more willing to get involved and help them along. It isn't an uptick, so much as the being more successful. Guns tend to make smaller groups easier to take over areas, as most don't want to be shot.
What books would be considered accurate, and which ones are propaganda, as you said about the interviews with Japanese pilots being welded into their cockpits? And the samurai of the war were not like those of the midevil times. Some basics are consistent, but not all. In space, it would change a lot as well.
Electronic surveillance was unreliable at the best for the game. Plus, how many of the caches were in systems that had no one living on the worlds, if they even had them?
As said before. The clans want to rule all, but don't want to govern it. Basically the absent monarch. Comes out to make decrees then goes away until another needs to be done.
I don't know if the clans even bothered to keep track of what other clans were making. The trials removed such issues from their ways. It may well be that the Ravens ran the ships yards, and the other clans only bothered with it, when they wanted ships.
|
Requiem
03/30/20 04:40 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
Using the FRR to argue that the clans would be absorbed into the locals, is a bad thing. They never were absorbed into the DC. So that is a fact against the Bears having it happen.
So how does a small Clan of no more than 1,000,000 civilians and warriors continue on being a Clan? Especially when the majority of the Free-born no longer wish to be part of a Totalitarian regime ….. they want the freedom that see the FRR people around them have?
At this stage wouldn’t the Jaguars see them as easy prey and initiate a trial of annihilation?
Quote:
Plus, how many of the caches were in systems that had no one living on the worlds, if they even had them?
As the story refused to include the locations of these resupply caches all anyone can do is guess ….
Quote:
The clans want to rule all, but don't want to govern it.
Sorry this does not make any sense to me …. To Rule is to Govern.
Quote:
I don't know if the clans even bothered to keep track of what other clans were making.
This is a real indictment upon their intelligence agencies …. It is a wonder they were ever able to hold onto their invasion corridors considering their level of professionalism!
So when you can prove that it is impossible for Clan Ghost Bear to move their population to the IS what should happen to canon history now? Just ignore the error or make changes?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/30/20 12:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Would the poorer people among the rich want to be part of the poverty people of the world? The entire idea of being superior kind of negates that. Most among the clans would want more freedom, but to be part of the dezgra populations of the barbarians of the IS? This is the very argument you have with the DCMS accepting the Yakuza into the military. Even those that hate the clans are more likely to want to be them, then IS rabble.
You mean the cache locations are up to the individual game masters to decide? And this is bad? Make up your mind. Totally locking everything into canon, or allowing GMs to make up a few things so you could find a cache or two for your players. It shouldn't be that hard to figure out where they were, given the time frame and where the clans were at when it happened. And they might even have multiple piles in the same system, just different parts.
Refer to the ages of kings. How many of them actually did the day to day running of things? They had staff to do most if it, while they did the high end stuff. You make your demands, and someone else makes it happen. Or orders/decrees what ever you want to call it.
How long did they take to do so? Where there several convoys used to move the pop? Or was it one huge task like the original exodus?
With recharge stations and such, it doesn't take 6 months one way. How many trips were done to do this?
Now the kicker. How many of their pop actually were taken? All? Part? I am sure there were more then a few left as useless baggage. How many were folded into the Ravens?
We know from the books it wasn't one huge convoy. So how many little ones and trips were there? The Nova Cats would be a bit trickier, but there are ways that it could have been done. Simple dropping them off on a world to get the rest out of clan space is probable. Then go from there. Much like a staging groups for combat troops.
The game has pointed out a lot, that the clans idea of intel wasn't up to par with even the worse IS houses. They really didn't need that much in their closed society. So in this, they would have been taken off guard when the revolts happened. The fear one elemental in armor that the masses can't do much against, that is shown to kill you when you break the law, goes a long way to stop thoughts of breaking the law in the future. Yes, fear can be overcome, but how many and how quickly? You see a normally powerful weapon, like a shot gun or assault rifle doesn't do much, if anything other then mar the armor, you tend to decide to obey the laws.
|
Requiem
03/30/20 08:28 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
Most among the clans would want more freedom, but to be part of the dezgra populations of the barbarians of the IS?
Why did so many people emigrate from their home country to America in the late 1800’s? …… the land of opportunity (for them their children and their children’s children etc)….. the same can be said here to remain with the clan is to remain in bondage to the Warrior Caste and the Caste system as a whole. By becoming part of the FRR people will be able to have a far better life …. Weekends ….. holidays ….. social outings to holiday homes – snow – river – lake – sea and all the outing associated with them ….. the freedom to travel where-ever and when-ever.
If the Bears have only 1,000,000 people the FRR life in comparison to the Clan will become far more appealing – the Clan society WILL collapse over time, it is inevitable – even if the warriors attempted to use force it would just prolong their former way of life by just a few years!
Plus the Ghost pear total population – 3 New York Cities – how does anyone expect a Clan population this small to retain its identity when surrounded by billions of FRR people?
Quote:
It shouldn't be that hard to figure out where they were, given the time frame and where the clans were at when it happened. And they might even have multiple piles in the same system, just different parts.
First their hidden on worlds with no populations – ie hidden worlds – now it is on the worlds that were attacked by Clan Wolf - so which is it? One will require a GM to make up hidden worlds the other allows for the IS forces to capture them.
Or did they just send transport Jumpships ahead of the fleet where they would lie doggo until the fleet caught up?
This is the problem there is no documented information as to their actual locations.
Quote:
Refer to the ages of kings. How many of them actually did the day to day running of things?
This statement proves my point!
There can be but one king – The Khan – who makes the demands
The Nobility then worked out what was to be done – The Blood-Named
They then handed it on to the army to get it done – The True-Born military
Quote:
How long did they take to do so? Where there several convoys used to move the pop? Or was it one huge task like the original exodus?
Both the Ghost Bears and the Nova Cats – one massive fleet – their entire population – it was not spread over multiple years as if this was used it would have taken over 25-35 years utilizing just two Leviathans and any other ship they could use in a round robbing transport system to and from the IS to Clan Space.
Thus for the Bears over 25,000,000 people – their transport could only contain 1-2% of this number – this is the problem the transport capabilities are no-where near their requirements and yet magically their entire population appears in the canon FRR and the same can be said for the Nova Cats and the DC.
So in reality there should have been either far more ships or far less people – given the mathematics of the situation.
Quote:
Simple dropping them off on a world to get the rest out of clan space is probable. Then go from there.
Really? ….. what happened to the Wolverines in this same scenario?
The enemies of their Clan per-sued them – attacked them – and destroyed them.
In this case would take them as their property!
There is also the problem of how do you feed 25,000,000 who have been transported to a virgin world with no industry aand agriculture – many of whom will have to reside on this planet for many years to come?
Quote:
The game has pointed out a lot, that the clans idea of intel wasn't up to par with even the worse IS houses.
It is not only the revolts or the partisan activity they should be worried about;
Industrial spies – steeling technology
Spies – steeling information – troop deployment / Logistics routes and timetables / secret facility locations / replacement personnel information / individuals private information – everything
And the Clans do not have the counter-spies to stop the Inner Sphere spies ….. they are wide open …..
Quote:
The fear one elemental in armor that the masses can't do much against, that is shown to kill you when you break the law, goes a long way to stop thoughts of breaking the law in the future.
The DC capitol – one little girl and her grandfather killed an elemental with a spike falling from the roof – pinning the elemental in place – they then used another spike and a sledgehammer through the suites lenses to kill the elemental
In another story the elementals were lured into a building, which subsequently blew up, burring and crushing the elementals!
Sorry but over time the people fear of them disappears – they are just one more target they can destroy!
A shotgun is not the only weapon …. Human ingenuity is the ultimate weapon to turn anything into a weapon …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/30/20 11:12 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Moving the America is different then the clan move. Native Americans were not considered the scum of humanity, as even the clans lowest cast has the opinion of the IS populations. As said about the samurai and the yakuza, that would be more like the feel of this.
Might be helpful if you thought of the caches being on uninhabitable worlds, not worlds that just weren't found or were lost. Specific asteroids in a system, or even on void moons and such. They do not have to be on class M worlds that were paradise for all. And those would be the ones on a world. Why couldn't they have them just floating in areas, like geosync orbit? Use your imagination for something other then saying canon is wrong.
With the list given for ruling, where is the actual people that run the kingdom, not just the enforcement of the rulers wishes? The ones that make things like quotas work for farming, manufacture and such. Military dictatorships require someone do the dirty work of getting even the ammo for the military made, so they can run the people into their graves.
So your favorite clan the Wolverines had more ships then the IS has, to get out of clanspace when chased. And yet the rest of the clans can't come close after 200 plus years? Logic holes forming even more in the alt here. Or maybe favoritism for your 'team'. Oh wait. The game has no team other then the developers making money. So having a favorite, as the FC seemed to suggest, put the money making into the people leaving the game.
And really think about the scenario you gave. The Ghost Bears were not running from a trial of annihilation. They were moving their people out without the howling hordes screaming for blood. So setting even half of the population on a world that could sustain them, while they moved others isn't the same thing. So no. It is NOT the same scenario.
And if they had, the IS would have no chance at all to defeat them. With better the League tech, they could have shut down so much more then just border worlds. So which would you prefer. The clans have weaknesses, or they be so well set that there is no chance to stop them?
The moron that wrote the story of the elemental being killed by the spike was not the developers. It was someone that really wasn't so involved in the game to make up something exciting. Where it may well be possible to drive a spike between the joints in a suit, just dropping it isn't going to do that. And dropping a building on a mech will kill it, and has so many times in the past, it isn't a shock.
No. The shotgun isn't the only weapon. The assault rifle that came directly after it is one as well. But not something that really hurts the armor. The same weapons that hurt mech armor will hurt an elemental. So pull your SRM launcher out of your underwear and fire away. The auto reloads will come in handy.
|
Requiem
03/31/20 06:00 AM
1.158.222.248
|
[quote[Moving the America is different then the clan move.
Highly Comparative …. A besieged smaller culture surrounded by another who’s vastly larger …
Quote:
…… caches …..
As there is no evidence, …. All GMs should have the right to put them wherever they want.
Quote:
So your favorite clan the Wolverines had more ships then the IS has, to get out of clan-space when chased.
Out of context again? ….. they had about half a dozen ships and very small population at the end …. Read the book!
Quote:
The Ghost Bears were not running from a trial of annihilation.
Where is it written the Bears spent the next 30 years moving their entire people and technology into the Inner Sphere?
Reading the canon – one trip – their entire population and technology ……
Quote:
And if they had, the IS would have no chance at all to defeat them. With better the League tech, they could have shut down so much more then just border worlds.
Their population is only 25,000,000 – No this still would not work,
They just do not have the infantry for Garrisons;
They do not have any measures to protect them from psychological attacks ….. remember the most dangerous weapon to fight the Clans is not a Mech – it is putting up a Massive shopping plaza, with women’s fashion, Coffee shops, Publican bars, film cinemas, car / boat dealerships, schooling for Clan children etc near by any of their settlements and sooner or later they will want to no longer be Clan …..
They can be easily seduced with all the Inner Sphere ‘bling’.
Quote:
just dropping it isn't going to do that
Errrrr No …… you put the spike on fixed arc swing, you then put one ton of weight behind it, when tripped the pinpoint loading of the spike would be incredible …. Straight through the elemental ….. pinned in place …
First Blood with the spikes … same principle.
Dropping a building on an Elemental …. Not Mech
For a ‘Mech you drop a mountain on them … or something similar …. Kai Allard-Liao – The Great Gash
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
03/31/20 07:32 PM
66.74.60.165
|
And there you go. All gm's have the right to put them where they want, yet you are screaming about them not being in print. Make up your mind. This very thing supports the idea, you just want to argue.
Now, not evidence is completely wrong. They state that they were made to allow the wolves a faster turn round time to fixing their units. That alone is evidence to them being made.
So you are saying the Wolverines left with less the 100k worth of people and pop? Without major cloning or iron wombs, they would not be in a position to do much against the clans even 300 years later. They just would not have the people to do it. If they had robots doing the mundane tasks like major assembly line production, farming and such, then they might be able to defend themselves from a single clan attacking. No matter what you think, you can not have all your people in the military. It just doesn't work trying to plow a field in full dress fatigues with a full pack. Even operating a machine to do it is a pain.
I did not say they took 30 years. I did say over time. 2 years might be a good idea.
And the novel of the Northwind Highlanders attack on the Jaguars supply lines had them meeting one such convoy. Not the entire fleet, but a section of it.
I just realized you didn't take the answer to the American settlement in the context it was offered in. The clan population would not mix with the FRR as they considered the FRR pop as so inferior, as they might catch something from them.
If the clans program to make warriors was as good as you want it to be, the IS would not have a chance to do anything against the clans. The sibko idea would be pumping out even more warriors then what it did, with it probably being expanded quite a bit more. The pop wasn't a huge problem, as they would increase in numbers as the sibko concept grew dramatically. This would run completely counter to only the best of the best idea that they strive for. So large numbers of replacements would not happen with that thought.
And if they did have more warriors, the invasion would have happened sooner, as there is only so much fighting you can do in the home worlds, before clans start dropping like flies.
Vlad and the rest of the star that went with Ulric were buried under buildings. The search crew was surprised he lived. Sounds like buildings, depending on size to be honest, would destroy a mech.
The spike would have to be made of something more advanced then normal. For some reason, I keep thinking railroad spikes. The iron ones. That would definitely send the elemental flying to land on the butt, but not penetrate the armor.
The idea of a claymore mine, will not penetrate a tanks armor seems to come to mind here. Not sure why.
Now that does bring up a major issue with tech of the day surpassing the game. Javelin missiles should more then wipe out an elemental and do horrible damage to a mech, beyond a normal SRM. With the arc and downward flight, it would hit the head more often then not.
|
Requiem
04/01/20 07:02 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Wolverines – Please READ the book – and yet how many people did the acquire along the way, first in the DC and thereafter ? – as for operating farming machinery, look up how many are now operated by GPS .....
Quote:
I did not say they took 30 years. I did say over time. 2 years might be a good idea.
Population – 25,000,000 – over two years equates to 12,500,000 per year - with only two Leviathans (500,000 people) – this would leave 12,000,000 people – as per original exodus stats this would require an additional 3,500 Jump-ships and 10,000 Drop-ships;
So where did they come from?
Plus wouldn’t the Bear’s enemy Clans send out their warships to find them …. And then drag them back?
Quote:
Northwind Highlanders
When? Where?.......... Andrea “Black Cat” Stirling within Impetus of War? … this was over a supply base …..
Quote:
The clan population would not mix with the FRR as they considered the FRR pop as so inferior, as they might catch something from them.
Sorry no …. Sociological psychology would say otherwise …. As if this was the case the two would be at constant war with one other over racial superiority from the get go, and would never end until one side was exterminated.
Quote:
If the clans program to make warriors was as good as you want it to be, the IS would not have a chance to do anything against the clans.
For this to be the case every warrior would have to have Morgan Kell’s ghosting power.
So No!
Quote:
if they did have more warriors, the invasion would have happened sooner
Remember it takes 20 years to create a Clan Warrior – thus either the Clans ramped up the number of Sibkos earlier – allowed more to graduate to create more warriors for the front.
As the didn’t their numbers are finite from 3050 to 3070 or there about – that is unless you want to go the way of The Jade Falcons and graduate them early.
(and then TPTB treat them as if they have the same skills as a fully graduated warrior – thus rigging the game once more in favor of the Clans)
So I doubt it – more likely if you wanted more troops it would have delayed the invasion once more by 10 – 20 years.
Quote:
Vlad and the rest of the star that went with Ulric were buried under buildings. The search crew was surprised he lived.
Vlad’s mech ended up in a void, if it hadn’t he would be road-kill and we would be scrapping him out – so where is the rules for this?
Quote:
The spike would have to be made of something more advanced then normal.
Yes but a decent steel rod – reasonable diameter - with a decent spike on the end would do ! – look up pin point loading with regards to engineering.
Plus if you asked an engineer to calculate the necessary force I am sure they could do it.
Even if it did not work consider it to be like a bullet hitting a bullet proof vest – shattered ribs / punctured lung at the minimum - or it would be like being hit by a massive truck at speed! So at the minimum they are out of the game for a very long period of time!
Quote:
With the arc and downward flight, it would hit the head more often then not.
This depends on the radius of the swing and where the spike is on the radius. – chest is a larger and easier target unless there are multiple spikes at different levels.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/01/20 01:13 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Why would the other clans send out ship to find them, forgetting it was done in secret for this question?
They would have the properties of the Bears, and with that, the Bears would be lacking the ability to rebuild for a while. It shows the rest of the clans they were traitors to them, and get move then just those that were at odd with them on the side to remove them. It is one less entity in the home worlds to deal with.
The idea of one race being superior is still going on today, why is it so hard to think it would not continue in the future? The FRR did this very thing to mercs they employed. Put them on reservations. The populace of the Bears would still think they are superior to the dezgra of even the IS leaders, much less the lowly people on the street. The racial issue have been going on since the tribes of man found each other. So unless the entire race changes, which in the case of the superiority of the clans hasn't, there really isn't anything to suggest they would live with each other peacefully.
So you are saying that if the clans sibko program graduated more, or had a large amount of them going thru all the time, they would not be that much worse they what they were? The sheer increase would be more then enough to have blown thru the comstar line as well as take out even more territory in the DC/FC, and obliterate the FRR entirely. With the tech advantage, had the clans invaded with even the forces of the CC before the 4th war, they could have been unstoppable by the IS. So if they could replace the losses they would face with even the truce conflict, this would not have allowed the IS to 'stop' them.
Now this one goes against your planning the invasion in 3000. They knew they would be invading the IS, a drastic increase in making warriors would have happened there, So 20 years would be nothing, as they would have done it earlier. They may well have had several galaxies worth of troops ready for an invasion after the 4th war, maybe sooner. And a point that has to be made. They don't make a sibko every 20 years, but are constantly making them. So every year will have some being taught and going thru their trials with another batch ready for later that year or next.
From the story, those that were buried in the Gash, were not all killed. Some even climbed out of their cockpits without needing to be dug out. So luck is a factor in who survives such an ordeal. Vlad was unconscious, but others die from such issues. Granted the story needed it that way, but simple rolls will let you see if a character that suffers like that dies, or lives. Granted, there wasn't anything else that should have been there in this example.
For instance. The Guards knew they were going to face an enemy, they would have had their munitions primed for a fight. Yet none of them exploded when they were buried? So all those thousands of rounds in the units, not a single one blew up? Not likely. Then having the entire mech still running, while covered in debris, didn't have any cook those munitions to the point of a heat explosion? Again. Not likely.
A bullet against a bullet proof vest is a bit different in the fact the vest rests on your body, not having an air gap between the two. But as said, it would have thrown the armor some, causing the warrior to be slammed in their suit.
Also, you might be forgetting the pain threshold of the elemental warrior themselves, as well as the pain med they have that auto inject when injured. It is possible, though unlikely, that the hit locked up a joint or two on the armor, making it that much more difficult to move it.
This depends on the radius of the swing and where the spike is on the radius. – chest is a larger and easier target unless there are multiple spikes at different levels.
Definite evidence you are not reading the posts. How do you get spikes from a javelin missile?
The sentences: Javelin missiles should more then wipe out an elemental and do horrible damage to a mech, beyond a normal SRM. With the arc and downward flight, it would hit the head more often then not.
Now that is IF the missiles work the way they are portraited in the Call of Duty games.
|
Requiem
04/01/20 04:40 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
Why would the other clans send out ship to find them, forgetting it was done in secret for this question?
They are abandoning the Kerensky Cluster – this brings up the worst of suspicions ….
They are Mongol …. In betrayal … death …. and in this case the Bears must die if they have betrayed the Clans as a whole.
Quote:
The idea of one race being superior is still going on today, why is it so hard to think it would not continue in the future?
Yes it will still occur …. as it is one of the main reasons war stats – they are not us so they must be destroyed. However when they (Bears) become us (FRR) this reason evaporates, and this is what WILL occur here – a smaller culture is subsumed into a larger community – consider social and cultural anthropology.
The idea of superiority relates to their warriors – however the remained of their population – especially their Merchants and Scientists will lead the way – and once their workers gain a taste for “the good life”, an increase in living conditions due to an increase in wealth that many IS corporations can offer they will be seduced to an Inner Sphere way of life.
Even if the warriors use force – their society will be merged with the FRR – there is nothing they can do – this is what happens when a repressed and down trodden culture with little no “positive elements” meets an open culture with access to all the “positive elements” – shopping, social belonging (pub / club), movies, holidays, holiday toys, travel …. Etc
Sorry but no, with the Bears movement to the IS and given the extremely small population in comparison to any IS world and in consideration to everything the IS can offer their (Bears) entire non-warrior population – Clan Ghost Bear society will (over time) be subsumed into the FRR – it is inevitable – give it 20 years max an the majority of the Clan’s more negative aspects will no longer exist.
Some of their traditions may survive within the individual Military Units – but overall their entire way of life will change.
Quote:
The sheer increase would be more then enough to have blown thru the comstar line as well as take out even more territory in the DC/FC, and obliterate the FRR entirely.
The size of the sibko program would have to generate a greater amount than that of an academy system within the inner sphere.
However when you consider boot camp (BCT), 9 weeks or there about, then specialization training, a couple more months, then couple this with the production numbers for producing military vehicles.
Sorry but the Clans do not have the population / military infrastructure to keep up – attrition war will grind them down.
Even with a 100% graduation scheme they still will not have enough circa 3050 – the entire Clan genetics progtam would have to be enlarged by hundreds of times as well as the production of military weapon systems at the same time to even come close as to that of which the Inner Sphere can achieve in numbers and infrastructure.
When even a single world within the IS has a population of 20-30 times the entire population of even a single Clan – they do not have the ability to engage in the long war – their only home is a short sharp conflict. If that does not evolve the Clans military WILL collapse due to a lack of replacement personnel.
It does not matter they would have been unstoppable during the time of the 4th Succession war – the damage has been done the IS has advanced tech – and should also have Clan tech given time – thus by 3055-3060 they will fall – they will be kicked out of the Inner Sphere – what was written is not a believable scenario - given any reality to real world loss depletion reports.
In all reality the Falcons and the Wolves should have fallen to the IS, if they fought between themselves, the idea they could just replace their numbers as per cannon is not believable.
So by 3060 in all reality …
The IS now control the Falcons, Wolves, Cats, Bears, Sharks (Merchants, scientists, Workers at the minimum) …. And even some of the other Warden Clans may have decided to join the new Star League given the state to the war ….
The remaining Clans will have to retreat to Clan space or face being destroyed ….
Quote:
They knew they would be invading the IS, a drastic increase in making warriors would have happened there
Except that the Clans Khans are as blinkered as it comes to their Loss Depletion Reports – they believe they do not have to increase their numbers to win!
It is only once they are in combat that they realize how wrong they are. And as a consequence the need to ramp up their numbers as at 3050 – the first time we will see any available increase in numbers is 3070 – however this is too little too late.
That is unless your Khan changes the rules of trial of position and allows more through than was ever allowed previously.
How will the true born blood named contemplate such an increase – politically they will find this going against everything their culture stands for (Jaguars when offered techs to pilot Mechs on Huntress – told No! they live or die by the ability of their true warriors and their true numbers) – so no that will now work unless it is accepted politically by all the Clans Bloodnamed – politically can’t see that happening!
Quote:
but simple rolls will let you see if a character that suffers like that dies
Piloting roll at what negative value? for the pilot
What crushing damage does a mech receive and howm many crit rolls?
Quote:
Elemental – pin point hit
Crushing damage would be severe – internal injuries – no matter how good their pain threshold is or how many stims are pumped into them unless they receive medical treatment asap they will die due to the internal damage sustained.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/01/20 04:41 PM)
|
ghostrider
04/01/20 07:39 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Maybe asked this way might answer this. How would the other clans, other then those that were helping the Bears, even know to start looking for the fleets when it was done in secret? As in no one else even knew about it?
And for the Crusaders, they would see it as a blessing. It meant even the wardens would have to declare them dezgra and hunt them. But only after they found out.
The Bears ways of doing things would have to change, that much I agree with. But best look at the religions of the world today. All of them have off shoots that do NOT evaporate with time, but cause chaos in physical confrontations. Yet their culture has not been absorbed or destroyed in thousands of years of such conflicts. Maybe In a few thousand years it might happen, but not in the time frame being presented.
As a side thought, it is possible population of the Bears may well be sent to the IS years after the main migration. Snow Raven giving shelter to them, to be shipped by the Sharks comes to mind.
Now the idea of the superior race would be ingrained in most of the populace. Until proven otherwise, they would still see the IS as degraded dezgra barbarians.
Increasing the number of sibkos and lessening the graduation requirements would have given the clans greater numbers to begin with. That alone, would have blown deeper into the IS then it did. Weither the IS greater numbers would have tossed them completely out, is questionable. With that much damage done to the houses, and the fact that they were not the target, may well get them to get a peace treaty with the invaders.
And your time line about getting advanced tech is off yet again. The 4th war did not have SL tech being started at that point. So 3025 tech would be the only thing available had the clans invaded at that time.
But the argument of the alt will come out and be inaccurate as to what is going on, as the only person that knows anything about it is the one crying canon is wrong because it doesn't follow their vision.
There isn't a disagreement that the refusal wars after effects were screwed up, and the Falcons should have at least been sent home with the tails between their legs, or start using the warships in a more offensive capability. The wolves in the FC would have suffered the same as Katherine didn't bother with Vlad until she realized she could not remove her brother from any sort of power. In face, if the FC DID remove the two, Katherine would not have risen to power. Even with Victor going to the clan worlds. It may well be, he wouldn't have gone, as he would be needed to repulse any attempts by the two to regain any worlds. With this in mind, the SL may not have been formed, as the FC would not feel it was needed as badly as it was in the original story line. They may well have come out that much stronger if they did go along with it.
Piloting rolls would be to see if they were buried. The true rolls would be consciousness rolls. Pass out, and death is most likely. The reactors would still be running until the heat built up and forces a shut down. This is assuming the mech is completely covered and no venting it possible. Ammo explosions would probably occur before this, at least in those mechs that had ammo.
Also, depending on the number of head hits, it could outright kill the pilot with missing such a roll.
Elemental armor is not like ironman's armor. There is some space between the warrior and the suit. Hence the need for IS warriors to have extra bracing put in to keep them from bouncing around. And yeah, it will be argued that is because they are smaller then the normal warriors, but given the description in Malthus had in the one book where he and Kai went after Cosmstar when operation scorpion was in effect, even he had some room inside the armor.
|
ghostrider
04/02/20 01:46 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The idea has come up that maybe showing YOUR numbers on just one company on what they have for dropships and jumpships as well as those they hire to move their product around the IS.
Let's see the numbers for Defiance. The population, imports of food, ores, and other things as well as supplies. Do they need water shipments? How many mega tons of iron and other materials do they need, as well as an exact number of what type of mechs are made a year, barring any raids or invasions. Also types and numbers of vehicles.
As canon is wrong on everything, let's see what you have for this. Even space assets they have and build. It is but one world. Not the entire IS.
|
Requiem
04/02/20 08:09 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
How would the other clans, other then those that were helping the Bears, even know to start looking for the fleets when it was done in secret?
Remember most of the planets have a percentage ownership structure where multiple Clans can own a single planet.
So, what happens when every Ghost Bear Holding on every world no longer has a population within them? That is all the cities and towns are now devoid of people ….
Quote:
but not in the time frame being presented.
American Indians / Spain and the Inca – what happened in such a very short period of time?
Quote:
Snow Raven giving shelter to them, to be shipped by the Sharks comes to mind.
There is no evidence of any Clan ever offering this level of assistance ever – A Clan lives or dies on its own military strength – No Khan would ever accept the dishonor of being ‘helped’ by another Clan to this level, it goes completely against their norms.
Quote:
Increasing the number of sibkos and lessening the graduation requirements would have given the clans greater numbers to begin with.
And would have started a coup within any Clan that would have attempted it – the Bloodnamed would see this as an affront against everything they stand for they would Kill the Khan who attempted this … again look at the Jaguars response to the failure on Huntress …..
Quote:
Advanced tech
Super Griffin – 3020 – advanced Jump Jets that …. Disappear! …. that the Clans do not have ….
Other tech ….
ER PPC – 3037
Gauss – 3040
ECM – 3045
Beagle Probe – 3045
But this doesn’t matter – that is unless you want to build your own Alt with this scenario?
Quote:
if the FC DID remove the two, Katherine would not have risen to power.
Katherine was already in power here!
As for the SL – in all reality it would have been formed way earlier than given in the Canon. - in all reality it would have been formed during what the canon call the year of peace.
Quote:
Elemental Armor
All armor has problem spots – the joints – arm to torso etc etc …..
Quote:
Defiance
No thanks. ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/02/20 03:40 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Everyone disappearing assumes a few things.
First is that every living person that is part of the Bears is leaving immediately. No one is being shifted to another clan.
Second is the assumption that only one clan is in each city, and not mixed. This ties in with the third.
Third is that none of the other clans has moved some of their pop into their new cities before the Bears were completely loaded up.
Handing over 'keys' as well as giving a heads up on little quirks of the items that are being transferred.
Fourth being a little different. Does the other clans care about the Bears populations other then their military? A few lies can get around it if they do. Lock downs being one that would probably be believed.
The example of the Spainish/Inca and Native Americans is backwards. Spain did not conform to the natives, but forced their views on them. So this would suggest the Bears would convert the FRR people to the clan way.
As you love to say, there isn't anything said that no other clan helped with the move, beyond the Ravens building the Leviathans.
With an alt scenario, you can have a planets population fart into a chamber, and use it to shoot ships across the galaxy if you wanted to. We were discussing advanced tech not being around during the 4th war. The advanced jump jets, and double sinks the FS were experimenting with were about it.
Without Victor leaving the IS, Katherine would not have gained the power to seize the thrones. If she had, the civil war would have started much sooner, and with that, been more Victor orientated in the win. On top of this, the Comguard that defected would not have done so.
I want to see you target a joint in a suit of armor with a spike on the end of a weight. Dropped or swung.
No go on making Defiance a living entity? I guess this means your argument of the IS being wrong in all their aspects is a dead subject. You wanted a full living IS, yet would even begin to do the largest weapons manufacturer in the IS. The economy and productions as well as budgets that prevent buying everything the military needs should have been fleshed out as it was 30 years since the game started, and yet a simple spreadsheet would be able to do this, or was that smoke and mirrors to back your claims the developers were wrong?
|
Requiem
04/03/20 12:16 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
Everyone disappearing assumes a few things.
If another Clan is assisting the Bears what will happen to them at the end?
They may receive the Bears holdings but they will also receive any political backlash ….
And yes other clans do care about the number of their helots … the size of their copulation equates to the power of the Clan.
Quote:
the Spainish/Inca and Native Americans
Reverse …. What happens when these societies are invaded by larger population societies?
Quote:
Without Victor leaving the IS, Katherine would not have gained the power
As a ruler Victor is quite incompetent …. Sooner or later Katherine would have taken the throne for herself!
Quote:
I want to see you target a joint in a suit of armor with a spike on the end of a weight. Dropped or swung.
Knights jousting …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/03/20 01:19 AM
66.74.60.165
|
The power of a clan is the size of their civilian population? When did the universe get changed?
The power of a clan is based on the size of their military and the skills of such. If not for needing someone to farm the fields and dig the ores, or run the robots to do so, the military would rather not have any pop. Only the iron womb born matter then them, and mainly the ones that test out.
We were not talking a larger sized population invading a smaller one. We were talking about the identity of the smaller (Bears) population invading a much larger one (FRR) and not losing their identity. So the original statement stands. The Inca/Spain and Native American example is wrong in this instance.
What sort of falling weight trap has a person holding or even guiding the weight, to hit a seal on a target like an elemental? Telekinesis? Might as well say a blow gun dart would work just as well or better.
And explain how there would be political backlash when the departure of a full clan makes all the others more powerful, as there is now less enemies they have to deal with to become the ilclan? They would target the Bears for hits in the IS, but the warden Bears only strengthens the crusaders calls to remove the wardens. But I guess making the warriors of the warden clans who fall to the crusaders would be embarrassed to become the victors civilians. So in this case, it might be correct.
Katherine may have tried, but there would not be the easy path like making Yvonne feel like a fool. Nor would she be able to do as much lying without being countered by Victor and those working for him. She would not have taken the throne, but caused more then a few deaths trying to.
Nothing more on the lack of numbers for what the alt has for resources? Not even the entre IS, but just one company? You can not suggest things if you don't have your own numbers to back it up. So pulling things out of the air is what you accuse the developers of, and saying the alt is better thought out. It seems there are no numbers to back any of it up. Sad.
|
Requiem
04/03/20 05:58 AM
1.158.222.248
|
The prestige / power of a Clan ….
The size and effectiveness of its military;
The effectiveness of its sibkos;
The size of its navy;
The size of its merchant navy;
The ability of its scientists to manufacture new weapons etc;
The ability of its merchants;
The size of its population;
The ability or its population to manufacture Military Goods - Food etc.;
Question – what happened to every Native American Tribe when confronted by idea of Manifest Destiny and the number colonists that went west?
Any trip wire mechanism or weight trap or even movement scanner can activate the trap – yo do not need a person to set it off.
Backlash – What happenes when a Clan moves to the IS and refuses to maintain a presence at the Hall of Khans? How are the other Khans supposed to take this – the Bears have turned their back on their traditions as well as their fellow Clans – ie they are telling all the other Clans to take a long walk of a short pier!
So, yes, backlash ……
Katherine – all she needs to do is assassinate Victor – it’s not that hard for her to organize – either Omika’s assassin or in Battle fighting the Clans (sabotage his ‘Mech).
In all reality Victor as a Ruler – he is effective as a wet paper bag – the same can be said for Yvonne.
Katherine is by far the better ruler – a return to Machiavellian Theory and that of the Borgias.
Quote:
Nothing more on the lack of numbers for what the alt has for resources? Not even the entre IS, but just one company?
Why, any numbers I print would only have any meaning to my Alt.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/03/20 12:16 PM
66.74.60.165
|
And what happened to all those in the middle east that have different ideas that live in the same regions, not just countries? Each tribe of the native Americans fell to the greed of the invaders. Again invaders. It wasn't the other way around.
With anything that deals with something that isn't precise, like a falling stone, you can't guarantee a direct strike at the precise location needed, nor can you even guarantee it will produce the force needed to penetrate the location. Simply having the weight turn just slightly would cause it to fail to penetrate properly. As I said before, it still might send the trooper flying.
The backlash discussion was not what would happen to the Bears, but anyone that helps them. I have not heard of the Bears not having representation at the Halls, but it is unlikely they do. There would be multiple trials declared against any there. As there would be precedence, they might be able to do it via HPG. But that isn't likely either.
Victor himself knew he needed to learn more to become an effective ruler. His rule wasn't bad, it just wasn't up to what you would expect from Hanse or Melissa.
But as this stems from the idea of the clans invading during, or near the 4th war, it is very possible Katherine was never born. The marriage was done only at the beginning of the 4th war. Or trained on New Avalon, as the LC portion would have been under attack from the clans. Depending on if the war was still going, Katherine may have entered the military to fight. It is a completely different scenario then the canon.
Any numbers you print would show you don't know just how much work it would be to do even a single company's worth of background, and continue it into the future. It also destroys the complaints about the developers not getting into that area so deeply. It shows your basis on why the rewrite is needed is faulty at best.
Canon has a lot of little faults in it, but the alt doesn't fix them, and adds new ones. So the only viable solution isn't the fix.
It does provide some ideas on how to fix or get around a few things. Just not the end all of fixing it all.
|
Requiem
04/03/20 04:07 PM
1.158.222.248
|
What happed to the idea of the numerical superiority?
Position of trap – where you put them, is how dead drops are so effective – you put them in a kill box!
Forcing an elemental – usually by slight of hand into a kill box a narrow area that restricts movement to almost nothing then the trap is sprung ie. walking down a hallway – walking through a doorway etc ….
So yes you can hit a precise location ….
When the Bears left Clan Space – they no longer remained within the Hall of Khans’ physical or otherwise – they turned their back on Clan tradition ….. so how else will the rest of the Clans take this?
Quote:
Victor himself knew he needed to learn more to become an effective ruler.
If this was so then why did he keep remaining in the cockpit of his Mech? A leaders position is within the Capitol!
He just does not understand or refuses to understand that as a ruler his position is within the warroom (like his father) and not within the battlefield and the cockpit!
Katherine was second in line so how could she not be born? Does this mean you have decided to build your own ALT Universe one where the Clans invade during / just after the the 4th Succession War? This scenario would change everything ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/03/20 09:52 PM
66.74.60.165
|
For battles numeric superiority is almost necessary. In religion and concepts, it isn't so important. Part of why certain religions have never died out despite a coordinated effort to do so.
The device you are talking about it a precise machine that has everything set up perfectly. What was described in the game is just dropping a boulder on the head of an elemental and pinning them in place. Not sure about how the solid top of the helm is a seal or joint, but having a spike hit perfectly isn't at all likely with a simple, hurried trap. For the story it did, as they needed it to. In reality, it isn't likely. So defend this logic hole all you want.
Where does it say the Ghost Bears do not have representation in the Halls? I would think they wouldn't, but then I didn't write the background or even the foreground of the story.
Why do any born of a warrior family continue to fight in the front lines? Glory is what drives the person to great respect.
Or so people want to believe. The great warrior is the great leader. Had the clans not invaded, Victor would have learned how to step away from the cockpit. Doesn't mean he would be the great ruler, but he would learn. If nothing else, having good people in position with the authority to do what was needed. He may well have even handed Katherine the throne until he did. The assassination of his mother stopped that.
I am not building my own alt. The fact that if the clans invaded during the 4th war, it is very likely Katherine would not have been born. Not sure why this is a big deal. Other then needing her alive to steal the throne from Victor. Hell, it may well have turned out the CC not only threw back the FC, but started a counter invasion while they had to deal with the clans. But then ignoring things like this is why the logic holes continue and grow. It may well be, the LC would have fallen, along with the DC. Had it happened soon enough, Walterly would not have been able to seize power. The advance to Sarna was where the political essense of the first circuit changed. Without it, there would have to be another issue to. And it doesn't seem to be one right now, but I am sure it could be made.
|
Requiem
04/04/20 02:24 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
numeric superiority
In matters regarding sociology – numbers and quality of life win out.
Quote:
Clan Ghost Bear
Canon:-
early 3055 the relocation effort got underway.
he last Bear ark-ship leaving Clan space in early 3060 – 5 years to transport 25,000,000 thus 5,000,000 people per year!
it would certainly result in the other Clans launching predatory attacks to take advantage of the situation
Khan Jorgennson famously and controversially renounced the Crusader cause
Apart from their enclave on Arcadia, granted to them by Nicholas Kerensky himself, and their traditional outpost on Strana Mechty, the Ghost Bear Clan succeeded in their relocation to their Inner Sphere Occupation Zone
Tensions between former citizens of the FRR and the Ghost Bears were also eased as those living within the Dominion were granted a great deal of freedom, including in how they were ruled, while the Ghost Bears themselves began to embrace the Inner Sphere's way of life
Wars or reaving - The Bears would gather their final convoy and leave the Homeworlds for good. They would be considered abjured with the other clans.
Quote:
Glory is what drives the person to great respect.
What happened to Hanses’ older brother when he adopted this? Surely Hanse would have taught his son better!
Compared to his sister Victor is not that great as a leader …. How can he effect government economic and social policy from the cockpit? ….. Katherine never had to kill her mother – someone really dropped the ball on this – she only had to kill Victor.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/04/20 12:10 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Early 3055. Some they were planning this how long? Enough time to have the Ravens build them the Leviathans, but were those the only ships done? And with this, how many were being moved before hand? Not the huge numbers that would be needed, but then it isn't a 6 month trip with the recharge stations in the line.
Depending on the dropships use, as well as if they were reconfigured, how many could be moved in a convoy?
As it was done over 5 years, not the one huge fleet as suggested, it lessens how many would go at a time. 5 mill per year. 3 round trips a year to be conservative. Less then 2 mil per trip. When broke down, it isn't that impossible.
So it has to be asked. Just how many and what types of ships does the clans have?
What has happened to a lot of sons from noble houses through out the ages? They die in combat, trying to show they are worthy. Stupid? Yes.
But being a violent based race, it has been the 'best' warriors that are respected.
Now think hard on this next one. How many children have heeded their parents lessens?
For the FS, and a chunk of the LC, the leaders were considered good to great warriors. Not all, but enough to keep the people and military from second guessing them.
Now another simple question. Does someone that rules a huge empire, sit on the throne all day long and attend to running things? No.
They have ministers and others running departments to take care of things while they do other things. If they need answers, then they contact the ruler. Much like rulers today. Each ruler relies on being giving information, which is then used to say yes, your doing a good job, keep it up, or no, you are doing a horrible job, then having to focus on the issues. Governments are much like large companies. The CEO tends to rubber stamp things, not normally being the one to come up or enforce the policies.
|
Requiem
04/04/20 07:39 PM
1.158.222.248
|
For 5,000,000 people you will need 20 Leviathans
As it takes 6 months just to reach the Deep periphery the round trip is now close to 14 months (plus) to move these ships just into the former FRR space (more time if you move them deeper into the former FRR) – then the time to get the people to embark and disembark form the ship would also be considerable - so the idea that 25,000,000 can be moved in 5 years comes into question again!
The Bears only ever had 2 Leviathans
Was the population per ship in error rather than 250,000 people per ship should it have been 2,500,000? Typo error?
Plus there is the issue of ‘just noticeable difference’ – the point at which a monetary value changes perceptions as to price – the same here with regards to the Bears population – as it is reduced over 5 years how quickly will it be recognized by the other Clans? And as a consequence they should have attacked …..
But this is not the biggest issue …. This lies in having these huge ships above Pentagon Cluster Worlds (that are owned by many different Clans at any one time) …. And they are removing a huge amount of people and facilities and yet no one notices this and decides to attack?
Sorry but I have issues with this.
How many children have heeded their parents lessens? How may children were rulers of vast empires at war with force as strong as the Clans?
Victor did realize that if he was captured he would be made a bondsman of that clan, and he would be expected to fight for that Clan?
How would the F-C have accepted that consequence?
This is not about machismo it is about being the leader who can govern. Leading from a cockpit just shows how naive he truly is in the ways of governing a realm.
Having a leader lead from the front may be a good story but in any practical sense it just isn’t plausible in a modern society.
If you allow your ministers to govern – they may come to like it and stage a coup and take over – or the corruption may be rife …. Again this does not hold water.
So if victor wants to play soldier - Traditionally there is but one answer – a regent – and as Katherine is next in line she is it!
Quote:
Governments are much like large companies. The CEO tends to rubber stamp things, not normally being the one to come up or enforce the policies.
Sorry but no this is not the case – Governments are not like companies and CEOs never rubber stamp anything.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/04/20 10:22 PM
66.74.60.165
|
So Leviathans are the ONLY ship that can move anything? Gee. I thought you can use smaller ships, with even scouts moving a simple Gazelle would help. And yet again, the idea that troops from the far side of the FC can get to the clan borders in under 2 months, yet the clans can't move a shorter distance in less time is amazing. And the FC doesn't have batteries nor recharge stations in a lot of areas. Total logic failure here.
But then I guess they only used a single Overlord C to move their troops into the IS.
You do realize that the pentagon worlds were only 5 worlds and that most of the clans were settled on other worlds? Huntress was not one of the pentagon worlds, yet the most valuable to them? Or did they retcon even more changes into the game?
Monetary value? I don't think they used things like dollars to pay for things, and being a smart salesman, you would have the accounted for, with the initial deal. This much assistance for this amount of land, including factories and such. You do know that you can do deals other then the immediate, expires while you wait ones? National Debt being a good case here.
Initially, Victor had no such clue on what would happen if he was captured. Honestly, this is one point where I would say his ego failed him. He thought he wouldn't be. Which is why he had to be knocked out to get him off world.
Later on, when they learned more, he may have been used as a puppet, but to think they would allow him to fight? Not even close. First off, trying to qualify to become a warrior would probably be forbidden in any clan but Wolf, and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed. He might be used as a clown mascot to show the IS, they didn't have a chance to defeat them. The clans did not think the IS would rush them, and honestly, I would think that is very much what they wanted at first. The Falcons especially.
The nobles, such as king Richard, did this very same thing. The only difference is the scale of what was there, and even then, the FC could do without him. It would hurt moral, but wouldn't that happen if Katherine had him killed, like her mother?
And I seriously don't think Victor would have tried to become a warrior for the clans. Phelan did, as he agreed with Ulric on how to do things. That would not be the case with Victor.
Again, I have to ask if you understand the entire history of the succession wars? There is nothing different between Victor and the clans then any other leader that went into the field. Well except the fact the FS/FC might have had issues at this point, and Katherine would have gained the throne without having to kill her mother.
Patton lead from the front. He did not sit in Washington DC sipping wine. More then a few other leaders have done the same, even those that are part of the royal lines of several countries. So modern warfare does have them doing the same thing they did in the 1400's. If you don't, then you demoralize your people into thinking they need to shed their blood, but you won't do the same thing. Macho isn't the only thing here.
What would the FC do if the DC had taking Victor prisoner? Or if the CC had been able to keep the double on the FS throne? It is par normal risk for anyone, including someone hiding in the castle. They can be kidnapped and taken away, while being replaced. Not as easy as someone on the front lines, but it can and has been done.
Read history again. This is how a feudal society has done it for the entire history of mankind. Vassals have always been relied upon to get things done. Greed is always there, which is why you put people you trust into positions, and try to make sure they can do the job.
Might want to look into the way companies tend to run. The CEO has large groups of staff running around gathering up all the info to get things going, and the CEO tends to make his judgement from that. He doesn't implement anything, or do more then put down yes or no on the order. If it was really difficult, there is no way CEOs could run more then 2 companies much less ten or more.
|
Requiem
04/05/20 05:23 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
So Leviathans are the ONLY ship that can move anything? Gee. I thought you can use smaller ships, with even scouts moving a simple Gazelle would help.
Mathematically …..
Clan Bear population (rounded down) 25,000,000
Number of years (as per canon) to transport to the inner sphere 5
Maximum transport to the Inner Sphere per year = 25,000,000 / 5 = 5,000,000 per year
Maximum Leviathan transport capability 250,000
Maximum Ghost Bear ships 2
Therefore remaining population per year requiring other transport = 5,000,000 – 500,000 = 4,500,000
Exodus fleet – 6,000,000 people = 1,751 ships and 5,000 drop-ships (approximately)
Thus the Bears would require an additional 1,313 ships and 3,750 drop-ships running back and forward for the next 5 years – again how do they have access to this fleet?
Quote:
the idea that troops from the far side of the FC can get to the clan borders in under 2 months,
Shortest distance would arrive first (1 month) … longest distance last close to (approx. 1 year if moved from the get go – doubtful) … those near the Terran Corridor along the FWL border and those along the DC border however could be moved quickly …..
Quote:
Monetary value?
Comprehension? As per above “the same here with regards to the Bears population – as it is reduced over 5 years how quickly will it be recognized by the other Clans? And as a consequence they should have attacked …..”
Quote:
trying to qualify to become a warrior would probably be forbidden in any clan but Wolf,
Falcons - 1st Somerset Strikers – IS Bondsman taken
Wolf – two – Phelan and Ragnar
Bear – Ragnar (from the wolves)
Quote:
The nobles, such as king Richard, did this very same thing.
Ransomed back.
Quote:
It would hurt moral, but wouldn't that happen if Katherine had him killed, like her mother?
Killing Victor off would have been a mercy – his only attribute was as a General and that’s it. Plus if he was captured he would not have choice – that is unless he wants to relegated to the worker Caste.
Quote:
I have to ask if you understand the entire history of the succession wars? There is nothing different between Victor and the clans then any other leader that went into the field.
You do realize that Victor is the ONLY ruler of a House who is constantly in a ‘Mech cockpit – ALL the others are on their Capitol worlds!
Quote:
Patton lead from the front. He did not sit in Washington DC sipping wine.
Question – was Patton Both a General and President of the USA at the same time? – as this is what Victor was!
Quote:
Read history again. This is how a feudal society has done it for the entire history of mankind.
Battletech society is NOT the same as feudal society during the Dark Ages – They are more similar to that of Great Brittan – even during WW2 the King was NOT allowed on the front – Churchill had to convince him otherwise on D-Day.
Vassals – How many end up sticking the nobility in the back when they prove they are not up for the job?
Quote:
there is no way CEOs could run more then 2 companies much less ten or more.
Really? …. Google Walmart Subsidiaries (over 50 ….) also have alook at many of the Banks subsidiaries …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/05/20 12:58 PM
66.74.60.165
|
How many ships does each clan have, and how many does the collective have? No numbers?
One more thing that would lighten the load. Did they move any pop during the invasion? People to do the dirty work, like moving supplies and just cleaning the bases and such, as they clanners would not be likely to trust any of the natives?
So getting from Terra to even Twycross only takes a month? The scale of actual distance here is off. And this is part of the issue with the pony express in the IS. It would have been more then a month to get from New Avalon to the CC/DC borders traveling with the first jumpship. Average 30 light years, a week. Even 5 weeks is only 150 light years.
Missed the point that money is not used in the clans like elsewhere. And the trade that is, isn't based on each clans economic status. A unit of trade is worth X amount no matter what clan it is from. To do otherwise would be wasteful, as that means bartering would be needed. The merchants may well do it, but as said. The price for all would have been done with the initial agreement for the move.
With this, it may well be they had to take longer then originally planned because they didn't have the ships.
Personal preference for Katherine was noted a long time ago, but how would assassinating Victor be a mercy? Showing him what he is doing wrong and helping to correct it is a mercy. Killing him is promoting anarchy, as it suggests anyone can be killed on a whim. The FC was running well without him getting involved in all the day to day grind. And with the size of the FC, even with the HPG, it is not easy to deal with it all at once.
Actually, Victor isn't the only one in a mech a lot, and if Katherine wouldn't have killed Melissa, he would not have been needed before he was. Hohiro was on the front lines as well as Theodore to deal with Wolcott and a few others.
Correction. There is no way you can not allow a king to go to the front lines to fight. You can show him it is foolish to even attempt it, which as you show, is the case with Churchill.
Throughout the IS history, most leaders of the nations went to war, even when they were in charge of their nations. If not, then the argument would be they are not worth the time, as they did not know anything about guarding the realm. Which can be used against Katherine. And using the, having good advisors works both ways.
Read the whole sentence. You left out the part of if it was really difficult. That ends the argument of being CEO of more then a single company.
If it was really difficult, there is no way CEOs could run more then 2 companies much less ten or more.
|
Requiem
04/05/20 05:53 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
How many ships does each clan have, and how many does the collective have? No numbers?
The Clan home Wolds have about 40 worlds total – why would just one clan need 1,750 ships and 5,000 drop-ships if they are so concerned about waste?
Consider the population of the Merchant caste of every Clan?
Yes there are no numbers – but these numbers do seems to be strange especially when you consider the number of ships assigned to each clan’s invasion fleet of the inner sphere?
[qote]So getting from Terra to even Twycross only takes a month?[/quote}
Being too literal – the closest units can be moved! And so on ……
Comprehension, again? As per above “the same here with regards to the Bears population – as it is reduced over 5 years how quickly will it be recognized by the other Clans? And as a consequence they should have attacked …..”
Quote:
but how would assassinating Victor be a mercy?
Every time he plays soldier the Fed-Com / Fed Suns Govt. would ggrind to a halt – Govt. requires his presence when it comes to signing a bill into law, when it comes to authorizing the budget etc – these are things that CANNOT be given away only he can ensure the smooth running of the Govt. – Playing Soldier puts the entire Govt. would be paralyzed until he signs many of the documents – when you consider what public expenditure includes you realize the level of problems Victors selfishness is causing his people.
This would have been drummed into him since birth as to his duty to his people – playing soldier and not looking after his people he is hurting all of his people – especially the most disenfranchised and those who require medical attention – plus education ….. and this would also include setting the military budget each year …..
Putting in a full time leader would ensure the efficiency of the government …. Something Katherine could do in her sleep.
If Victor wants to play soldier he should renounce the throne for Katherine …. A point his mother would have yelled at him … his actions by remaining on the front lines are causing more harm than good!
Quote:
The FC was running well without him getting involved in all the day to day grind.
Once again fiction …. and yet another pot hole …. How? Considering the scope of his empire and the military this shows a complete lack of understanding as to the level of work required by a government.
Killing Victor would restore order … leaving him alive is anarchy ….
Hohiro is NOT the coordinator he is the heir apparent …. Massive difference!
Quote:
Throughout the IS history, most leaders of the nations went to war
and in every case how did that work out especially when their leader did not have a child to take the reigns?
His duty is to run the government …. Create an heir …. It is NOT playing soldier!
Quote:
Which can be used against Katherine
Katherine has very good advisers for all things military whilst she is running the state – Nondi Steiner.
Where / who are Victors government advisors whilst he is on campaign? – never included
Massive difference in government accountability to assist the people they govern?
CEO’s – yes they can – it comes down the directors and their staff beneath them – to ensure the flow information.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/06/20 01:29 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Honestly, having all the warships could be considered wasteful. Fuel, upkeep, supplies among others. Being a warlike race, it makes some sense, but they have limited their combats with the trials. I don't see why they haven't keep most mothballed. Which may well explain why they have so many ships. Simply keeping the workers going, and just mothball them incase of a major emergency. They were concerned the IS would find them first after all.
Leaders being in the field is not that much of a strain on the government. Very few things would be done by him, and most of that can be done by fax or jumpship. Not pony express, as it would be a sure sign he was somewhere. Can't remember the DC's coordinator that ordered the Kentares massacre, but he was with hit troops invading the FS for years in an earlier succession war. A few others were doing the same thing.
You say no one can be given the rights to do things, then what does a regent do? The SLDF would have been completely paralyzed with Richard not being of legal age to do anything. England was running even with King Richard being captive. Yes, criminals were running it. And speaking of corruption, more then a few rulers themselves were corrupt to the core. But the governments still functioned without their top position filled.
Might need to really look at governments today. They can go on tours to other countries, golf, go to parties and meetings and such, and their nations still run. Regents can run the government when the ruler is busy. If they didn't, the clone of Hanse would have been found out long before it did. He would NOT know FS policies and such like the real one would. Even with extracting that information, you still would be stumbling for things.
Other then the loss of morale, Victor dying in the fields would not shut down the government. There were 3 other children beside him and Katherine that could be trained to do to. Hanse himself wasn't trained to run the FS when his brother died. So no. The princes and such for the 5 houses are not needed to run it. There were still advisors left over from Hanse and Melissa, as well as those that were helping him while he was still learning as well as being trained. Justin Allard being the first one that comes to mind. Morgan Hasek-Davion is another.
So you have supported the fact that CEOs don't do much work. They have groups of staff to do all the hard work, and alls the CEO does is say do it, or forget it.
|
Requiem
04/06/20 06:57 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
keep most mothballed. Which may well explain why they have so many ships.
Since the Wolverines used Mothballed Warships to escape you would assume that there would be more advanced locks on the reserve fleet.
However this is 1,313 ships and 3,750 dropships
If one clan can take this number wouldn’t it be noticed and reported?
Quote:
Leaders being in the field is not that much of a strain on the government.
When the government is the size of the Fed-Com?
Completely unbelievable – he would need a massive communication system as well as a couple regiments worth of bureaucrats just to keep the government running – has anyone even considered having their government run from tents this close to the battlefront?
Quote:
Kentares massacre
Yes, very good point ….and what happened next …. the massive reversal in fortune of the DC – the FS pushed back and how many worlds did the FS get back?
Military problems … logistics problems …. Government problems …. All because the Coordinator was off the Capitol interfering ….
Did no one read Sun Tzu when it comes to Govt. interfering with the military?
Quote:
You say no one can be given the rights to do things, then what does a regent do?
Pardon?
The regent has the authority to act in the best interest of the First Lord – that is they do everything the First Lord does – the wheels of Govt. keep turning over!
King Richard being captive – his brother John was in charge – However, Richard was only ever in England for a hand full of days just to get the taxes he needed – he couldn’t even speak English as he was Norman French ……
But the governments still functioned without their top position filled. – there is always someone filling in for the top job.
Quote:
Might need to really look at governments today. They can go on tours to other countries, golf, go to parties and meetings and such, and their nations still run.
For short periods of time – not a problem the bureaucrats can accommodate – telecommunications available – they are only a couple of hours away by aircraft if they are needed.
However, when Victor engaged in an Operation to fight the Clans and then ticks off to Huntress this demonstrates his complete lack of understanding …. Yes he did put a Regent in power but he did not give her the support mechanism to assist Yvonne.
What did he think would happen given Yvonne’s lack of experience and Katherine’s cunning?
Quote:
There were 3 other children beside him and Katherine that could be trained to do to.
Law – The Rule of Succession would say otherwise ….. and
Peter is in a monastery;
Yvonne is a basket case;
Arthur would have preferred to have been an Sandoval of Robinson than a Steiner-Davion;
So that would have gone down like a lead balloon.
Quote:
Hanse himself wasn't trained to run the FS when his brother died.
Correct … the Govt needs a successor …. Where was Victors? In becoming First Price his duty was to sire a an heir not running around the battlefield!
Quote:
Justin Allard being the first one that comes to mind. Morgan Hasek-Davion is another.
Justin? Son of Quintus – his Government is with Cassandra?
Morgan – Capellan March – Task Force Serpent – prior to the birth of Victor he was the heir afterwards his position become more remote.
Quote:
So you have supported the fact that CEOs don't do much work. They have groups of staff to do all the hard work, and alls the CEO does is say do it, or forget it.
This is something the media would have you believe – it is NOT the case!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (04/06/20 06:58 PM)
|
ghostrider
04/07/20 12:41 PM
66.74.60.165
|
There is a difference between take and rent. I not sure which jumpships and dropships you used for the calculations, but I do admit, it does seem a bit more then what they should have available.
Also a thought. How many extra ships went with the invasion force? The numbers show combat units and such, but how many were sent that were fuel carriers as well as cargo ships for setting up the bases along the route? No matter how bad they thought the IS would roll over, they would not store HPGs and food on their combat vessels. Even with building some of this before they left, they still would not have given up their combat ships.
The DC governing is different from the FS/FC. There is a very strict limit to what regents can do while a coordinator is still alive. The FC runs a bit different. They are less worried about someone trying to make a coup. Doesn't mean there isn't any that would try. The regent would have the authority to do almost anything, with very few exceptions, legally. Proclamation of becoming the ruler is one of those illegal acts.
The statement of king Richard should solve the issue of the ruler not really being needed, other then a figure head. Only a hand full of days, and someone was filling in for the rest. Sounds like it can be done. And with the size of the FC, I would figure they have more then a dozen RCTs worth of people running just a march, much less the entire FC, Just to keep supplies moving. Might well be an RCTs worth for each world, depending on their size and what they actually do. Simple agriculture world would have less then say Hesperus or other heavy demand worlds. This isn't even going into intel, transportation or anything off world. So yeah. There would be millions involved in the government.
First off, did anyone really know Katherine was gunning for the top spot? It isn't like Hanse or Melissa really had to deal with a sibling trying to take the throne from them. When did she show signs she was going rogue? As for Yvonne, she would have seemed to be a figure head. Keep the seat warm sort of concept.
You mean not everyone in a royal house can do the job? Wow. That isn't a new concept. It still could get done. Yvonne lost it after Katherines campaign. Had it not been for that, she may well have become a good ruler. Time would have been the factor.
Victor would have been needed on the throne if the FC was in bad to dire straits. This was not the case. In fact, the FC was in a good place as the truce with the other nations in effect as well as the SL being formed. So the war front would move from raids and such, to just building defenses. Taxes were pretty much set for the entire nation. Katherine and Yvonne were in fact heads of the LC/FS, with Victor being a side show.
There are a few CEOs that did more then have their staff collect data for them to review. Lee Iacoca, the CEO that saved Crysler is one of them. But running 10 or as some reported as many as 500, this puts the idea of being extremely difficult to do, to shame. From the looks of it, more then a few seem to be good at absorbing money that could be used more efficiently. Like paying their workers, upgrading the facilities, and even paying their taxes. So with this, I can see why the IS has issues with money. A large chunk of industries and such would be late on paying their share.
|
Requiem
04/07/20 04:17 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
How many extra ships went with the invasion force? The numbers show combat units and such, but how many were sent that were fuel carriers as well as cargo ships for setting up the bases along the route? No matter how bad they thought the IS would roll over, they would not store HPGs and food on their combat vessels
For me – as at 3000 when the first call came for the invasion by the Bear Khan – I had the Clans Building HPG stations to be strategically placed along the exodus route.
Ships – the largest ones available plus construction if it was found they needed more.
This Merchantman fleet is to come from all the Clans and is to be commanded by the Hall of Khans and the ilKhan. Security warships can be assigned on a round robin schedule from all the Clans.
It’s only function is to keep the flow of supplies to the Clans who are involved in the invasion – so depending on the Class of Jump-ships you could have an extensive fleet of Merchantmen moving between the Deep Periphery and Clan Space.
Though again giving the fleet 1300 ships will again seem excessive.
Though there is another option, for those that want to take it up, building the Leviathan fleet by all the Clans at the same time as the call for the invasion (3000) and the HPG stations. The Clans realized that they would need to re colonize the IS (post successful invasion) thus they created Colony worlds within the Deep Periphery (one for each Clan), and as such each Clan has been using this fleet to transfer a portion of their population to build their own Colony world.
Clan Ghost Bear rented the majority of it (payment the majority of their Clan worlds Holdings) to transfer their entire population into the IS over the five year period. Where it was then returned back to the Clan fleet.
So having 20 Leviathans, at one point in time, can make a little more sense to the game world as well as the future plans of the Clans – a follow up invasion to take command of the entire IS post current invasions’ success.
Quote:
The regent would have the authority to do almost anything, with very few exceptions, legally. Proclamation of becoming the ruler is one of those illegal acts.
It is the only thing a Regent cannot do – otherwise the Regent has the complete legal authority as the ruler of that realm.
Quote:
The statement of king Richard should solve the issue of the ruler not really being needed, other then a figure head. Only a hand full of days, and someone was filling in for the rest. Sounds like it can be done
Sorry no, there must be a King per say, the bureaucracy requires leadership.
It cannot take command – unless you want to change a Houses Government to that of a democracy and put an elected President in.
Quote:
did anyone really know Katherine was gunning for the top spot?
No, this was just added in with no warning whatsoever in an effort to increase the hype.
As for Yvonne, she is a basket case, it should have been obvious to everyone that she was ill suited for any senior position – marriage was her only real option.
Quote:
You mean not everyone in a royal house can do the job?
The Law of Succession is clear – In the absence of a legitimate child of the current monarch the position will go to the next person in line – Victor to Katherine to ….. from eldest to youngest, despite their mental and social issues.
(Something they forgot about when it came to Adam Steiner! – thus you got a Coup in all but name)
Quote:
Victor would have been needed on the throne if the FC was in bad to dire straits.
As soon as he took the Throne his days as being a Mech Warrior were over! A concept which was totally lost o him – and may have been a driving force behind Katherine’s decision to take the Throne from him – he was doing more harm than good ‘swanning around’ being a warrior than being the Monarch of a vast interstellar realm.
Victor would be adopting the image of the playboy – self indulgent hedonist (and given his stature and his desire to remain within the military – a Bonaparte-ist) if he pawned his position off on his two sisters rather than doing it himself.
A rulers position can be one, it is to be on the throne!
Quote:
Tax
Tax minimization schemes have been around for as long as Taxes have existed – depending upon individual Countries rules / together with international law there have always been ways to get around not paying your taxes.
Have a look at the top individuals / countries – have a look at their wealth then compare it to how much they pay in tax. Don’t be surprised if it usually end up being less than that of the poorest people in their country pay their taxes.
Today, many of these schemes involve transfer payments from one country to another (depending upon rates and legislation) and it easy to do when you place the company’s primary intangible asset (and Head office) in a different country to its operations and you then funnel the payments from operations through other countries and collecting tax concessions – as all money is to be sent as a payment to use the Logo to the Head office etc.
And that is just one of many different schemes that is currently out there.
Though I did like some of the older ones that have subsequently been closed – go to a 3rd world country purchase art and artifacts on the cheap – return home, obtain an outrageous valuation, donate it to the local Museum / Art Gallery and get a tax break for the full amount of the inflated valuation.
So don’t be surprised if this too still exists within the Battletech Universe.
Now thinking about it would the IRS / Tax Auditors have their own Battlemech Security force? In the event of a seizure of assets it may be necessary to obtain the assets by force ….. or SWAT team …..
Anyone want to run the IRS Tactical BattleMech Asset Recovery Unit or SWAT BattleMech Team?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/07/20 06:43 PM
66.74.60.165
|
Honestly, I don't think the clans would have started building stations that long before the real invasion. They were concerned about the IS getting their tech when they were fighting, leaving stations out there would make it so much more likely.
The Comstar exploration units never found any in canon, but should have in the alt. They did after all, find the clans home worlds.
The HPG links that weren't in space would provided the IS with coms back home, so that wouldn't be done to far in advance.
It is funny that discussing a regent being able to run a government, yet having to have a butt on the actual throne sounds contradictory and circular in logic.
And almost all male leaders have served in the military. Not sure the length of time, but the round trip to the clan home worlds would be a bit excessive. Not impossible. And they did have some lines of communications back to the IS, as they were getting updates pretty regularly.
With Peter stepping down, so WOB did not have 'control' over the Archon, Who would really be next? To my knowledge none of Hanse's children had children of their own at this time, that was public? Nondi would be next in line, and she probably refused. So her child would come up next. I don't think anyone on the Davion side would come closer then that. Not sure how long they had Peter thinking about WHO to choose.
Going backwards in time, the leaders of tribe all over the world went to war, and even hunting with their warriors. They were gone for months at a time, and there wasn't an easy way to just call back if something was the problem. They would be in more need then most of the larger countries. In the U.S. the president seems to get information provided by others to make decisions on it. Congress makes up the laws, then it goes to him. So what else besides public relations do they do? They are not needed as much as they were in the 1500's.
Also, what is to stop one of the higher ups from making a decision until the leader gets back? Most rulers encourage smart choices. Not all were, but most tried.
Not sure if you know who Warren Buffet is, but he outright said he paid less in taxes then his secretary. He is a billionaire, that invests in business. His company owns quite a few big name companies, or has stock in them. He wasn't the only one, but one of the first. They have their games they do, and the non rich go to jail for it.
The government wouldn't allow the IRS to do that. Most of them would have assets being seized left and right. That would be down right embarrassing for them. To ask for more money in taxes and not be paying it themselves.
I want to rip on someone that is doing that, but need to keep out real life politics.
|
Requiem
04/07/20 08:32 PM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
Honestly, I don't think the clans would have started building stations that long before the real invasion.
Consider the number HPG stations required from The Hall of Clans – into the Deep Periphery and then to each invasion corridor. The only way it could be completed on time is if they started early.
Then there will need to be two large space stations:- one to bulk the goods and put them of large transport Jump-ships and send them to the Deep Periphery where the second space station will bulk-break their logistics request.
On top of that Leviathans may be need to be created as well as Potemkin Class carriers.
On top of that – colonies will be needed to be established – warehouses, armaments / spare parts factories, sibko training venues, Jump-ship / warship / drop-ship repair docks; Medical Hospitals etc etc will all have to be established in the Deep Periphery prior to the invasion ….
So yes, they would need the full 50 years, just to establish the logistics requirements for the invading Clans ……
One way trip from Deep periphery to Clan Space:- 6 months
Factor in the time to re-equip a fleet with new stock per Drop-Ship and Jump-ship as well as re-crew, clean and service the engine etc you are long at lease one extra month (minimum)
Thus a total of 13 months (at least) round trip.
Quote:
With Peter stepping down, so WOB did not have 'control' over the Archon, Who would really be next?
Remember there is an entire post on this subject – Peter had a son, thus him, then as both Yvonne and their brother are out of the picture – it goes back through their Grandmothers Sister – Nondi (who is dead at the hands of Peter) – to her eldest child and her children, and their children,
Have a look at the Back of the Original House Steiner book as to the family lineage.
The idea they could Adam on the throne is a complete farcical joke.
Quote:
the leaders of tribe all over the world went to war, and even hunting with their warriors. They were gone for months at a time, and there wasn't an easy way to just call back if something was the problem.
Did these leaders have thousands of planets, trillions of people, massive government departments, an economy spanning those same thousands of worlds, special interest groups, military industrial complex as well as the military itself to deal with?
Simpler times you got simpler problems.
As for the President’s duties – go back and watch west wing or google it. Far more involved than just public relations.
Tax reform has always been one of the major problems of Government (and by extension its leader).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/07/20 08:53 PM
66.74.60.165
|
I would think from the description of the path, there would be several stations along the route for each clan. The next segment of the path would probably be on such a station.
The idea that all supplies were brought in for all clans at the same time sounds off as well. Doing this would allow the other clans to see how many damage you were taking or if something underhanded was going on. The Sharks ships that went missing for instance. Also, since they had separate routes, they would have to keep each stocked anyways.
That would also explain why the Sharks were there to sell supplies to them.
The number of HPGs isn't really an issue, when you know the clans worker cast had far more people doing the job then was even hoped for. They would have enough to do it all quickly, and still not worry about having to wait long.
This is another reason why the exodus road name is wrong. They might have retraced a portion of it near the home worlds, but not the section going around the DC by the FS border.
Interestingly enough, they had the jump coordinates for each system going to the IS from the home worlds. A bit of a contradiction to no one knowing this.
The sheer numbers you are giving says there is NO way a single person could do much. So the government would basically run itself. Otherwise, you could not get anything done. West Wing was a fictional show. As with all fiction, the facts are left on the floor for a good story. Some are stretched, and complete lies are added. If it was that difficult, then the current president of the U.S. would not spend more time watching TV or texting then he does in the oval office.
So no. I don't think the government really needs a head so much as just someone saying do this or do that.
How many leaders in the past had their aides making decisions, so they can avoid blame when bad, and accept the praise when good?
That is pretty much what your chambers of congress are for. No one person to decide things.
|
Requiem
04/08/20 02:57 AM
1.158.222.248
|
Quote:
The idea that all supplies were brought in for all clans at the same time sounds off as well.
Two theories:-
First, there is a centralized distribution system where all of the largest Jumpships are combined into one / two fleet(s) – thus utilizing efficiency to ensure the transport of Logistics from one station to the next; Thus Freeing up and keeping individual Clan’s (assigned to the invasion) smaller Merchantmen free who will be still be utilized within Clan Space and within the Periphery / Invasion Corridor.
Second, individual Clans look after their own needs – however this would require their complete fleet – thus their numbers within both Clan Space and within the Periphery / Invasion Corridor with a reduced number of ships they could have under the above scenario.
Personally I prefer the First as it would allow each individual Clan a greater flexibility whist within the OZ.
The sharks were there not to sell products to the invading Clans – their real mission was to find IS goods that would generate large profits back within Clan space.
Question how long would it take to complete a build for a small space station (that has storage capacity for food etc for a minimum of 9 months – and then resupplied) and a built in double HPG transmitter array for instantaneous receipt and transfer – for an almost real time conversation between the IS and the Hall of Khans.
There also may be a need to put a Jump recharger into each one to allow for a Jump-ships to be processed quicker.
In addition I would also consider a small aerospace force within each station for security purposes as well as a detachment of elemental marines.
The marines would also ensure the previous Jump coordinates would be wiped befor providing them with the new jump coordinates for the next station …..
So they are not that small – they will require time to build on a per capita basis.
No government runs itself – it is a massive organization.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
04/08/20 03:39 AM
66.74.60.165
|
What is the numbers for their complete fleet?
The ships they brought in with the bid, could not have been all, and we know in the case of the Wolves, it wasn't. Just two warships out of all they had.
Not sure where you get having to store 9 months of food. I would think they had supply ships running a constant route, at least once a month. One large dropship with food from the homeworlds should have enough to deal with it.
Not sure if this was typical of the clans, but the one station fought on, had mechs and elementals on it. No fighters. Another reason why I don't think fighter pilots were numerous in the clans.
And there is a third option for how they did the stations. Besides the take it a part only enough to move it method, it is very possible, even probable, they built some during the invasion. if supplies were moving constantly to the front, even just food and alcohol, they would have the ability to send and receive messages from the home worlds. It wouldn't be recent news. As said before. The Dragons had a station that was a quick build, as it moved with them when they changed employers.
The elementals on the station also suggests they have reserves on or in those stations as well. So they could have had a pretty steady source of replacements as more were moved from the home worlds to replace the ones that got promoted to the front lines.
With numbers we don't know if they had dozens of stations around each world, or if they were only around the pentagon worlds.
Also, you can run the HPG in a smaller space object, like a habitat or factory. The recharge might have been an issue, but then you would need to run a reactor to keep power to the HPG and keeping the crew alive. They were not really that concerned at first about a counter strike.
And I agree. If you have the resources, you would have some fighters around each station. But that would be splitting your forces, which really doesn't count here. The clans bid what they did. Anything behind the lines is not part of it.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
2 registered and 137 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 12312
|
|
|
|
|
|
|