ghostrider
07/13/22 09:42 PM
45.51.181.83
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Even during the 1st war, some worlds were spared a full glow in the dark treatment. Normally those worlds that the military was really weak, and the attackers needed a staging area/depot. As is standard problems, logistics are needed. Not many worlds would be spared in a rush to destroy the defending forces, but as you got a little deeper into the enemy territory, the defenders thinned out some.
The fact that Kerensky appointed Blake as coms director, and he declared Terra neutral, when did they have a vote to see if that was going to work for the people of Terra? It was just ordered, and that was it.
The game lost parts of a good plot earlier then that. It just got to a point after the FC merger, that there wasn't much that could be done to get the game back to a more normal state, until the civil war. The mega state was just too powerful for the FWL/DC to do much, and the CC was out of it until they got the MoC and TC working with them. Even that wasn't enough. This is not saying that things couldn't have gone better, as they very much could have. The Jihad was the point that really caused issues. Everything afterwards was made that much worse from the Jihad garbage.
Hell, even the original SL has issues that retcons made even worse.
The out of resources for the entire SL verses how WOB was able to do even more with fewer worlds, and even less resources comes to mind.
That is bovine excrement. Acting correctly by killing any in her way to power, is never acceptable. Sugar coat it all you can, it is still excrement.
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ghostrider
07/13/22 09:57 PM
45.51.181.83
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Funny how you said that Melissa was not the leader of the FC at one point. The throne for the FC was Victors, as Melissa was only reagent of the FS portion. Now she was in charge of the whole thing as the full ruler? But it isn't an issue with this. Katrina gave up the right for her to claim first lord of the SL.
It is historical that Japan, China and a few others nearly, and I say nearly, always killed the families of those that lost a large political battle. This is also very true with dicstatorships. The main time it didn't happen is when family where the ones that took power over the others. Then only parts of the family were put to death.
The entire clans were set to retake the SL for their entire history. Why is that such a problem? They actually had all the clans still around at the time fight for a position to do so, with a poor assumption the IS wouldn't be that much of a problem. Arrogance makes people do stupid things. This is actually a decent idea. Some things are a little weak, but workable. Could have been better, but that would mean the IS wouldn't have been in as good of shape as it was when they went to war.
So now you see the whole issue of 'I am right, no matter what anyone else says' when it comes to history and the future. My way is the only way. Most entities change over time. And give what was suggested about the SL and the leadership before it fell, why would you want that back?
Doesn't matter who is fighting, but the prize is ultimate power over every one else. Greed is all there is.
The Helm core was a big help in looking to rebuild the fleets, but it wasn't the only solution. The pocket warships should have been done before the huge warships, as the weapons required for the large ships had to be built and tested. Planetary defenses being a huge issue that was missed.
Naval weapons would not have been as lost as one would think. Many SL bases were found that would have had examples of working weapons when the SLDF just up and left them all. Even future discoveries never looked into this concept.
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Karagin
07/13/22 11:11 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think we have had this conversation before. Yes, in fact, we have. Melissa was the ruler of the FedCom but not the full sovereign, she mentioned something about that at some point or it's mentioned to Victor, as a wake-up call to get him to act like an adult.
That means Katherine was NEVER going to rule anything unless one of two things happen, mommy dies and Victor gets the blame and thus is forced off the throne or a civil war happens over mommy's death and she steps in to save the day. We have covered this topic to death in other threads. Requiem knows this and once again we are back his pet ALT because he can't accept that his fan fiction, that he won't share with us, is NOT CANON.
All the Houses rule through fear, none of the leaders are voted for by the common folk, none are really amazing or wonderful, and at best the lesser of the evils compared two the nutcases across the border. Most of the planets in the Clan OZs would not be quick to jump back into the hands of the Houses because they would NOT know that life, not after 100 years of Clan control. Yet, that's what the PTB has us believing is happening but is it? Oh wait, is this disagreement with the new storyline? Why yes it is and did I expect the PTB to do better this time out and not repeat the same mistakes of the last storyline, well I had hoped but I didn't count on it and so far I have not been disappointed with how they have gone right back to the old storyline, single lances or battalions taking whole worlds, or planets jumping ownership and no issues beyond a line or two about minor unrest, set type move on to the next thing. Will my pointing this out here or on CBT or any of the FB groups or pages change anything? Nope, because it's already been made crystal clear, TPTBs have their story set in stone and they aren't going to change things for the fans. Hell, they couldn't even handle the KS buy a canon character thing without it overwhelming them.
But moving back on topic, the reborn Star League wasn't going to last, Katherine was a power hunger female dog, and she wanted power at all cost. She didn't care about who died, as long as her pretty behind was on one or both thrones of the Fed-Suns or Lyran-Com then she would be happy and death to all who got in her way.
She had her own brother's wife Omni killed, just like her mother, she went after her other siblings and while she didn't kill them, she tried for a few, she did play them off against each other and Victor. So, the bottom line she was evil. If Requiem would read the canon books and the sourcebooks, he would find that was never hidden and was actually part of the storyline starting with Natural Selection and going forward.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 01:08 AM
45.51.181.83
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I really believe that is part of why the 20 year update lost so many units. The expansion of the houses were starting to make the game where you couldn't run a new unit with say a lance of mechs and make a huge difference. It was getting so that even a battalion would not make much of a difference. Well not with the players being a merc unit by itself.
I am going to try to avoid much of this, but the fact that the comprehensive reading and reading between the lines seems to be the reason why the logic of the civil war storyline fail to show Katherine was a killer pure and simple. Trying to distract the fact by bringing up the smoke and mirrors saying it was something akin to destiny, will not stop..
Now, trying to have a civil conversation is difficult enough. The fact that one character in the past did the same thing, and was stated as being a war criminal, yet a favored character doing the same thing is not a war criminal is an issue.
As I did not say this in the other posts, I have not said my views were the only things that can be done. I have shown what reality has done, and tried to counter the illogical outcomes of situations that mirror realities past. All players games differ from canon, though most don't have a major failing with the canon story. A few, like one game we had going, was changed because of the civil war. The merc group was like a few, where we did take a world in the 4th war in the CC's old area, and was granted rulership of it. The failure of Katherine to defend the worlds given to her mother, meant we lost the world and all the work we had sponsored for it. It bites, but it did create a situation the GM used to force us to fight to get it back.
Does this mean our alt is required for others? Not even close. Another group didn't have any issues, as they were given some land further inside the FS portion.
I hate the fact that the IS didn't adopt the clan tech. I can see why, as it created a problem were the larger numbers of units were needed to guard worlds, as you could kill defenders that much quicker. But they kept the clanners with it, so it still produces the same issue, only on a smaller scale.
A normal ppc was horrible when it hit a light mech, but the Clan ERPPC was even worse. A clan ERPPC on a Panther was death to a lot of lighter units, especially when taking out a leg in one hit.
But with the clan fight on Terra, that was the whole point of the invasion. To restart the SL in the clans image. Doesn't have to be the same thing that was originally there. That is the beauty of being the victor. You get to make the rules of a nation.
The RoTS story line cut down numbers to allow the same thing. A small unit could take worlds and hold them, so you didn't have to resort to nukes or huge battles to take or hold lands. Sounds like a pattern forming?
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Karagin
07/14/22 09:11 AM
70.118.172.64
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It is a pattern, they want small battles, not huge ones, but even still a planet is a big place Just because you control four out of eight continents doesn't mean you have full control if all you have is a single company of mechs and a battalion of infantry to hold things. But in Battletech, the logic of the thinking says nope you do. The whole ROTS thing was two-fold, they had to bring in the Clicky Tech crap in a manner to make so those of us who didn't want it embraced it, and two they had to bring in it because they had no choice. They were stuck with the piss poor storyline of the Clicky Tech setting and so instead of a rewrite, they modified it and tried to shoehorn it into the game. Surrender your mechs and we will have peace, right okay sure, not happening should have been the logical comeback and results. However, instead, we get an entire decade-plus of real-time where this storyline runs and we see some of the worse writing as far fiction goes but hey smaller battles, fewer issues for the tabletop, and look we got a couple of fo cool computer games out of the deal right? So that FPS thing is there, so that is good for the tabletop right? Wrong, because now we have players who can't understand that what works in the video game won't work on the tabletop because the rules are different.
Sounds very similar to the pattern when the MechWarrior computer games came out in the early late 90s early 00s. Now if with higher tech and all that having a company or bigger to attack and hold a world only means you need to step up the writing ability to tell a story. You break the fighting down to the skirmish level, which would be no different than the original company scenario books like we had for the Hounds or the Black Widows, how hard could that be for TPTB to use a proven format that actually worked and they don't have to reinvent the wheel?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/14/22 09:16 AM
70.118.172.64
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The Clans under Alaric have the chance to do something different with their version of the SL, I doubt they will since the kid can't even see that his misunderstanding of things has already cost him. He stripped the Empire to go attack Terra, not a smart move. He claims the Dragoons broke with the Clans, yet they were cleared of all that back when Natasha went back, but hey revision of history seems to be the norm in the game of late, kind of like wanting fan fiction to be canon. Now, he might have been playing off his parents' hate of the Dragoons, but hey that's a pretty hard sell when you look at his supposed military prowess.
We haven't seen this new ilClan go "a-vikining" yet, so time will tell what they do in the name of the new SL or what it gets called.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
07/14/22 09:34 AM
1.124.24.87
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It was just ordered, and that was it.
Sorry but at no time were they provided the deed to Terra – ComStar was only provided with communications Dept – in 2788 Blake took control of Terra utilizing former SLDF personnel, when de declared the world neutral …
And that was it.
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It just got to a point after the FC merger, that there wasn't much that could be done to get the game back to a more normal state
Really, then someone was not contemplating the possibilities … too powerful, what a joke, as your border increases so too must the number of units required – otherwise your defence strategy becomes porous ….
Then there are other situations to be considered …
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and the CC was out of it until they got the MoC and TC working with them.
The Trinity Alliance was 3058 to 3067… at the early stage Moc and DoA formed the partnership …
However, for me rather than the jihad was the point that really caused issues – it was the war of 3039 – the idea of attacking the DC when the CC was on the ropes makes absolutely no sense whatsoever!
Though I agree the jihad is an absolute garbage fest of an era – with only the WoB toys making any sense – which should have been improved upon and disseminated throughout the IS thus by 3150 the advancements in tech throughout the game should have been a quantum leap above the dribble that was provided.
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The entire clans were set to retake the SL for their entire history. Why is that such a problem?
The idea itself is not a problem – the way it was executed and the mannerisms of Clans themselves is the problem…
This is my opinion – you do not have to take it a gospel – all I ask is keeping an open mind.
With the arrival of Wolf’s Dragoons there must be a second group sent to colonize a vast area of space just beyond the periphery to form the Logistical hub from which the Clans invade the IS – rather than attacking Huntress it should have been this area that Victor should have conquered – he should never have been allowed to find he home worlds of the Clans!
From this point we can have a second Clan Invasion rather than the imbecilic idea of the jihad.
Also the idea of the Clans themselves their sociology etc is completely and utterly in error (in my opinion). What TPTB created is so akin to the Nazis that they should never have gone there – and the idea of stripping people of their last name, the forced work, and placing people into a stratified society based upon DNA is an evil dozen or so steps too far.
Again in my opinion if you want to retain the link with the SLDF nobility – then there is but one solution (again in my opinion) Templars and Hospitallers and rather than creating a DNA elite class – parents are able to have dozens of children – making the family unit the centre of a utopian esq society.
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Doesn't matter who is fighting, but the prize is ultimate power over every one else. Greed is all there is.
Except for when you have a holy war attempting to save humanity and not based upon greed and power – one built upon bringing the light of education, reason and the preservation of all ecologies – to remove hunger as well as the idea of poverty.
This is the SLDF I would have hoped they would have envisioned and not the insipid one they came up with.
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The Helm core
Was never taken far enough – by 3050 the IS should have warships as well as a first generation of Omni Tech weapons, as well as first generation power armour.
The IS should have been prepared properly for the coming of the “Clans”! just as directed by the Khan of Clan Wolf – however never undertaken by Wolf’s Dragoons.
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That means Katherine was NEVER going to rule anything unless one of two things happen, mommy dies and Victor gets the blame
If you read the original transcript you will see mommy and victor were to die at the same time – the idea that they were to be killed of separately is in error.
Someone really dropped the ball here!
The assassin should never have killed mommy on her own!
And yes I am not a Canon absolutist and I take pride in that point!
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All the Houses rule through fear
Can I laugh now? Lyrans, suns and Leagues do not rule through fear – only Dracs and Combine do.
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none of the leaders are voted for by the common folk
Suggest you go back and look at world stats – especially were it states many worlds have presidents elected by the people to lease with the nobility of that world.
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Most of the planets in the Clan OZs would not be quick to jump back into the hands of the Houses because they would NOT know that life, not after 100 years of Clan control.
And the reverse is also true – the IS worlds and their people would never accept clan way of life so readily described in the novels. What we have here is partisan war for decades – IEDs / assassinations etc the whole gambit … and yet this was completely ignored.
What we have here is a complete and utter lack of understanding (in my opinion)!
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TPTBs have their story set in stone
And this is why I advocate that everyone should be allowed to choose for themselves – create your own IS history or go along with Canon – people should be allowed to choose for themselves where they want there is to go.
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Katherine was a power hunger female dog, and she wanted power at all cost. She didn't care about who died, as long as her pretty behind was on one or both thrones of the Fed-Suns or Lyran-Com then she would be happy and death to all who got in her way.
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Katherine was a killer pure and simple.
Sorry, but for me (and in my opinion) this shows a lack of understanding her at all.
Suggest you research Lucrezia Borgia, Margi Thatcher as a starting point then read Machiavelli’s The Prince.
It is quite clear she is doing exactly what she should to remain in control to preserve the nation given the times – she is the only person who has the intelligence to preserve the FC and destroy the Clan threat with the exception of Kurita’s.
Lets be honest – Victor is the most incompetent leader of a state given the threat of the Clan invasion – he has absolutely no right to go swanning about with his unit and be expected to rule at the same time – he is a danger to the state and as such must be put down as the incompetent wase of space he is! (again in my opinion!)
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She had her own brother's wife Omni killed
1st Problem … Victor never married Omika as neither realm could have survived the shock!
2nd Problem … As a citizen of the IS there is absolutely no way your character would know, with absolute certainty, that Katherine had undertaken any such activities – all your character is doing is buying into the ‘cool-ade’ of Victor’s propaganda machine.
Even after he arrested her he NEVER provided any evidence as to her wrong doing.
Thus the case, as demonstrated by the quote, can only be based upon propaganda – as there is no factual evidence!
This hatred can only be derived through reading the Novels – a point any character of the IS is unable to do as they are not omni-powerful.
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the game where you couldn't run a new unit with say a lance of mechs and make a huge difference.
Beg to differ – when you compare the total number of worlds to the total number of units.
Plus given that many governments would like plausible deniability as to certain raids there will always be a niche for a merc unit.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 11:28 AM
45.51.181.83
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Having ownership of a world, and actual full control is not the same thing. The concept of one nation controlling the cities, and another controlling the wilds comes to mind here. Something else that needs some thought is puppet governments. The people of a world could very much be against the current rulers, but can't do much other then freedom fighter/terrorist attacks on that government. So on paper, you own it, but in reality, you are fighting a large rebellion.
The game loves to make it look like you own the capital, you own the world.
Then who runs Terra? Who is in charge of the government? Comstar was until WOB took it from them. There was no choice at all.
The question is, did the border increase or actually shrink? As the tips of the CC and FWL near Terra were cut at the time, it just moved part of the border. Both realms got better coordination for their troops, reducing the amount of overlap in units required to guard specific areas. The large increase in troops in the form of the FC named troops was a shock considering the 'lack of spares' concept projected before the 4th war.
Too big is a problem. There are points in size that require even more things then two realms that are smaller. Much like a corporation. Each section requires it's own branch to cover it. New York has their own branch, while Los Angeles requires it's own. Then you acquire some property in London. This means even more, not only for local issues, but to get all three locations on the same page. More being spent to just run things then what is coming in.
Tactically, the DC attack was correct. The CC was hurt, but basically being used as a buffer state. Much like countries in the world today. Those buffer states are used to absorb attacks that might otherwise severely damage other nations. So to hit say Italy from France, you either go into the sea, or have to chew thru several countries to get to them. Yes, it is very possible the nations between the two will support or allow France to move thru them without an issue, but we kow this is not the case in the game and the CC. The FWL should well have used the 3039 war to remove the CC, as they would need to set up a real buffer zone. One they controlled, not left to the Liao's.
Hurting the DC badly enough would have ended resistance to the FC. It would have put the DC on the back foot, reducing their ability to cause issues.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 11:45 AM
45.51.181.83
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Saying the clans can't create a legal SL because you don't like them is your choice. It does not change the fact that they can still do it. There is portions of the clan ways that are less the stellar. I do consider their ways better then the CC and DC ways of doing things. Even some things in the FC are inferior to them. Does that mean the others are unfit to be in the game? No. They all give players an enemy they can actively fight and try to beat the 'bad guys'.
As the same issues crop up in the FS/LC/FC/FWL where someone in power decides they don't like you and make your life a living hell, it shows the same issues of life. It does not have to be from the main leaders either. A local noble can suffice.
A point that needs to be made. The clan homeworlds was not found by Victor. The information gained was used by him, but he did not authorize Comstar to find it. And the fact that the Dragoons knew where the coordinates were, means it really wasn't 'lost'.
The clan society was actually done up as a martial society that went wrong. It was a decent set up after it was learned thru their civil war, that the IS loyalties would never cease. So by giving them all new loyalties to cling to, it removed that aspect, allowing military honor to take over. The fact that those in power decided to take all the power shows a very human nature of people wanting to be in absolute power. They choose to use a method of becoming the new 'First Lord/Ilkhan" thru less destructive ways to the civilians. It created it's own issues.
For those stuck being the common folk, it bites, especially when those in charge decide to lash out at them.
But in this case, it gives you something to want to take the fight to, and remove them.
Much like having rulers of the IS realm become psychotic killers.
Otherwise, you are stuck with civil wars, that would never allow any sort of cooperation among friends. Wait a generation or two and the next civil war comes up, in a war game.
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Karagin
07/14/22 12:02 PM
70.118.172.64
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We can all say group A sucks, doesn't mean they suck, it means we don't like group A. I stand by what I have said in the past and will say again IF the PTB gave a damn about what the fans of the game thought about things or truly wanted, they would have listened when the backlash hit with the whole Jihad storyline unfolding and adjusted things. They didn't give a damn and they didn't listen. In fact, the time period has been used by many to show how to piss poorly an IP can be run into the ground and still blame the fandom for being the reasons. Almost as bad as the current Star Wars IP holders are doing.
All of us here are not happy with parts of the game, yet the majority of us either ignore those things and play on or we just play on. A small group come up with their own "universes" which is cool, I have my own for my group, but we know they aren't canon and we know that our ideas are going to be excepted by other fans.
The Wolf Clan controls Terra. That is a fact, they are ilClan. That is a fact. Alaric already said he is bringing back HIS version of the Star League, so that too is a fact, Can he do that? Yes, he can. Will it be different from the other versions? Nope, most likely not, but that is up TO THE POWERS THAT BE, that would be writers and Line Developers. Not us the fans, again they don't care what we want or say or support. They want our money and that is it. The only time they will care what we say or do is if or when we as a group stop buying the books, miniatures, computer games, etc...aka voting with the wallet and too many of you won't do that because that means taking a true stand.
So Requiem, you are at an impasse of sorts, you keep harping about your ALT, we have asked you to put up or shut up, you have refused to give us the ALT, but you continue to tell us how your personal version is best, so how about following my idea above, and stop supporting the game then since it's not following your take or ideas? Then you can publish your own game/universe setting, Amazon will support indie writers and their stuff, so then we can see how much better your giant stompy robot game is. How about it?
Also, before you go off, I too, have come to see that my own fan fiction isn't going to save Battletech, so I have started to turn it more to my own ideas and whatnot. Mainly because others have said hey that set of ideas sounds better as a stand-alone thing set up on its own. So maybe that's what your's needs to be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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Holy war is a very subjective term.
You say your in one, as the enemy is horrible. Yet the same thing is being said on the other side.
And for the clans, the invasion was a holy war. They thought they were that superior, and the IS was that weak. If they had truly set out to destroy the IS houses, they would have hit with everything they had. The IS would have been hurt badly, with the LC/DC/FRR being destroyed or hurt so badly, they wouldn't have recovered.
The Helm Core is a problem in itself. It was just the largest intact cache of information the IS got. It was not the ONLY one. As the game presents it like it was the only one. No one was able to gain advanced information from any of the other cores or facilities found in the IS or periphery? Galtor was a major SL facility, yet nothing was found their other then normal weapons and equipment? The Camelot Command had nothing on the specs for more advanced tech, especially dealing with space craft? There were so many caches found, yet still only the Helm Core was the only one to advance anything.
As stated before, ground batteries or even refitting normal dropships with naval grade weapons would have been a priority for the houses, until they got the warships being built. The cost of say guarding Defiance with sound ground based naval weapons would have been far better then allowing yet another dropship fleet ground near the factories. Plus they would be needed to display what those weapons could do, while the warships were being designed.
Maybe Jaime found that the house leaders were not ready for being readied for the clans. It may well have been he was not set up, in his eyes, to really do more then just train units to fight better. Which he did. The Dragoons did a lot of training the IS troops. Supplying them with advanced tech and even the location of the home worlds was not in the cards. What do you think would have happened to the Dragoons if they had showed anything like a clan ERPPC? They would have been attacked by all that could reach them, including the FS/LC. Comstar would have done all they could to remove them from existence.
Much like today. If someone had showed up with say an anti grav tank, do you think the worlds greedy leaders would allow any country other then their own, to have that tech? Destroy it if you can't control it is the mind set.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 12:28 PM
45.51.181.83
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The topic was Terra and how no one voted for Comstar to take control. Other worlds were not part of that specific topic.
And all houses rule thru fear. Why do you think they paint the other houses as vicious overlords, even the houses that rule pretty much like they do? Some normally don't say do this or be tortured.
How long will you continue to kill your own families trying a partisan war against an enemy that has no emotions of whether the population dies or not? They will be more then willing to kill an entire city, if it means removing the cowards that strike from the shadows? They were not fond of their own population back in the homeworlds, much less the lesser beings that populate the IS worlds. No outside help is coming, so you eventually give up or end up being the cause for yet another population center being punished for your actions. Like it or not, most people want to live in a peaceful safe environment. So you don't talk back to the warriors. You do have a set of laws, and have some stability. For some worlds, this means raids do not occur every other week.
Katherine is another example of the way of the clans. They think their vision is the only way things can be, and they kill everything that stands in their way. There is no cut out for one person. She is the same as any other tyrannical leader. She represents the same thing. Worship me or die. She is far worse then the Kurita's or Liao's. Their realms understand that some things are not questioned. For the LC, there is the ability to disagree with the leaders. So Katherine kills you from the shadows.
Interesting. Until Melissa was killed, Victor COULD go off fighting the clans and not having to deal with ruling. He was the right person for the time, as the clans had to be stopped, or the FC would have been destroyed.
Was he the best for ruling without the clans? No.
Was Katherine the best for ruling? No.
Again. The novels do not print every little detail in them. He did provide evidence, and as stated, they were not enough to convict in a public court, as the laws are set up to require specific points. They did get those points from the assassin, but without a living body to cross witness, would not stand in a court of law. This does not mean she is innocent, but means a public court could not convict her without issues. A military tribunal could. The fact that multiple leaders had reached the same conclusion says it all.
So you can defend Defiance from a real attack with a single lance? The enemy will be throwing in at least a regiment of units, and you do not have any control of support units. You think a lance will take a borderworld given they would have a standing garrison as well as militia and such, as well as reinforcements on the way once the attack is found?
The only thing you might do is stop a pirate attack on some back water world. And that doesn't do much to gain you reputation outside of that one world.
You suggest Katherine did what she did to preserve her thoughts of what was needed to 'save' the FC, well use that to say Victor did what he did to 'save' the FC with his vision.
Edited by ghostrider (07/14/22 12:29 PM)
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Karagin
07/14/22 01:18 PM
70.118.172.64
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No, the novels didn't give us everything, but the sourcebooks did build on the information from the novels and each one did give us more information. Thus building the big picture. That is something he keeps missing. The novels and the sourcebooks at one point WORKED together to give us the bigger picture, that died after the Jihad crap started, hell we all paid for at least one or two sourcebooks full of pages of nothing but gibberish and TPTB thought it was funny as they took our money and we smiled like idiots and gave it to them, cause mmmm Battletech and we didn't want to be called names and such.
Jamie was ordered by one of the Wolf Khans, one of the Ward ones, can't recall the guy's first name, to start prepping the Inner Sphere for the coming return of the Clans. So yeah he was indeed dropping hints and working with other groups like Team Banzai, Blackwell Industries, etc...and yes ComStar was terrified their hold on technology would end IF things like the HELM Core was fully understood and used. Daily life would get better, folks would see that new factories could be built and heaven forbid that part of the core happen to have HPG tech in there. And yes if someone showed up with antigrav tech and said hey here it is, you are going to need, all of you, some would be like thanks but only certain nations really need it because they would have the reason all ready to go.
The Clan Invasion was a holy war for them, it was a return to their birthright, as told to them by old Nicky. One that was stolen from them by the evil House Lords, you know the same ones who allowed old Amaris to do what he did and all that jazz, again things that were spelled out from the beginning of the game in all the sourcebooks, and made very clear in the original Star League sourcebook.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
07/14/22 01:21 PM
70.118.172.64
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It use to be, read the BIG novel but Stackpole or Pardoe, or a couple of trilogy ones about the main units and then you get a sourcebook/scenario-unit book that went into more details. These would have references to things from other books and sourcebooks etc...now it's not like that. Now we get a bunch of random novels and nothing to tie any of it together, The last two major sourcebooks, Tamar and Empire are decent, but they are not really information troves, more like primers. They needed more details and information.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 02:46 PM
45.51.181.83
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As stated before, the novels don't follow the rules of the game. They come up with things that are false or misleading. No where in the rules does it suggest you can crank in a torso in order to give the arms more firing arc. It sounds great to make a story a little more extravagant, but it destroys what people think can be done in the game.
From the looks of it, the source books are being left vague, so they can retcon things in without challenging already printed material.
The next book is required to figure out what happened in the last set of books. Money grab is implied with this style of writing.
As said before, it almost looks like the writers are starting to have problems with writer's block. Given the past lawsuits and the entire sue crazy environment going on, it is understandable. But some of this looks rushed or last minute slam to get something out.
As for the SL, the original one was becoming the great evil before it fell. Corruption from the house lords as well as the TH itself showing thru. Creating the periphery war to distract from greed running things, shows this. As more of the backstory is filled in, it creates such a conflict of facts.
It is interesting that all the SL caches were not emptied for the Amaris war, and yet nothing advanced were found in any of them. As stated, the units from the SL time are the same exact units that were being made in 3025, despite those supposedly being done as tech was lost. They would suggest the SL didn't have advanced versions of those unit, as they are the same from start to finish.
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Requiem
07/14/22 07:47 PM
1.124.26.59
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Quote:
Then who runs Terra?
The people, ComStar doesn’t have a say – even as a puppet government, they don’t have a say – This is the only way that they can appear to the wider Inner Sphere that they a benign techno-religion that desires peace above all ease.
This is why they hid their ComGuard for so long!
This is how they could maintain their policy of getting the Great Houses to destroy themselves through war – thus when the time comes they could ride out and save humanity through their Blakean Theocracy.
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Both realms got better coordination for their troops
This was circa 3050 onwards at 3039 both CC and FWL were still useless.
Thus the FC could have easily killed off the CC which would have forced the FWL to improve radically and over a very short period of time!
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Each section requires it's own branch to cover it. New York has their own branch, while Los Angeles requires it's own.
And when you analyse the facts what does it show reality is? How about an inability to work with anyone else – disfunction on steroids?
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Tactically, the DC attack was correct.
Sorry but this dog don’t hunt – refer AGAIN back to the Forum post that discussed this in depth, The correct tactical path is …
1st Kill off the CC.
2nd Marriage of alliance FC and FWL
3rd Kill off DC.
4th Reform the SL
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So to hit say Italy from France
Suggest geography and history was never considered ….
https://www.google.com/maps/@49.5,22,4z
They share a common border…. Rome, Caesar attacking the Gaul’s etc….
Also by the 3039 war half of the CC no longer exists so setting up a buffer state along ¾ of the FWL border is impossible!
Again consider having a look at the map first!
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Hurting the DC badly enough would have ended resistance to the FC.
The only way this occurs is when the DC is conquered by the FC and the DC has no more military units as they have all been destroyed!
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Saying the clans can't create a legal SL because you don't like them is your choice.
You do realise this is like one of the renegade countries declaring themselves ruler of world – it is just unrealistic to think anyone would consider the statement plausible – it is just a joke as far as the rest of the wider community would consider!
So they can say it but as far as anyone else cares they would consider them deranged.
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As the same issues crop up in the FS/LC/FC/FWL where someone in power decides they don't like you and make your life a living hell
And in a free society look what happens when the media and the law gets involved …
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A point that needs to be made.
Then how did Victor get to Huntress and then on to Strana Mechty?
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it gives you something to want to take the fight to, and remove them.
Much like having rulers of the IS realm become psychotic killers.
If this is the case then it is war to the death from 3050 onwards – there can never be any respite until one side or the other is dead!
And yet the story we get is the most pathetic plot – full of plot holes and idiotic battles that makes the entire era nothing but a bad joke … (again in my opinion).
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They didn't give a damn and they didn't listen.
And this is why I suggest making your own Alt universe and ignoring TPTB.
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The Wolf Clan controls Terra.
Only for those that follow canon … for the rest of us with our own Alt Universe we can make our own statement as to who has Terra.
Also yes I have stopped buying the books … it is really not that hard to create your own mechs, rules etc.
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but you continue to tell us how your personal version is best
You do realise that I haven’t made this assumption – I have only stated that everyone should be allowed to create their own … this statement is the creation of others … and sorry but I will not be going down the indie path …
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Holy war is a very subjective term.
Not really, is the war being driven by religious ideology / priests / with zealots for warriors.
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And for the clans, the invasion was a holy war.
Then whomever wrote the books should go back and re-read the crusades as their writing does not come across as a holy crusade … it is more of a land grab of the wild west.
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The IS would have been hurt badly, with the LC/DC/FRR being destroyed or hurt so badly, they wouldn't have recovered.
Given logistics as well as sibko – not a chance, it is the Clans that would be badly decimated … they just do not have the numbers as well as the ability to hold worlds with vast populations without resulting to planetary bombardment.
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Galtor was a major SL facility, yet nothing was found
Halstead Collection.
However I would like to know how Books survived to this period of time as well as being man handled by Mech hands in sacks.
In the far future where are the Kindles and the central computer core?
Where are the sci fi gadgets of the star league era?
What did this collection advance tech in?
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Warships
Except for the fact – kid in a candy store phenomena – once they know warships can be re-built most governments would go for these 1st as a matter of state pride and also being the 1st to say they have warships whist everyone else doesn’t … children’s attitudes do not change just because they enter into government.
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What do you think would have happened to the Dragoons if they had showed anything like a clan ERPPC?
This is why you use hidden subsidiary companies in each Great House to proliferate new weapons – and at the same time make a vast amount of money …
It is really not that hard to accomplish!
Consider the Raven Mech – new tech and how was this considered by “greedy leaders”
Another point as to why the CC should have been absorbed into the FC!
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Why do you think they paint the other houses as vicious overlords
Propaganda – USA, Russia, China – how much is true and how much is made up to make their “enemy” look bad, who knows what the truth is unless you live there for an extended period of time.
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They will be more then willing to kill an entire city, if it means removing the cowards that strike from the shadows?
The idea of collateral damage just shows how inept your military / spies really are …
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Like it or not, most people want to live in a peaceful safe environment
Ben Franklin
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
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Katherine is another example of the way of the clans … Worship me or die.
Sorry but I can’t stop laughing again at this.
She never had a demagogue personality and she never terrorised the average citizenry from the shadows … she did keep her nobles in line when they stepped out of line, and yet this is to be expected given the times she rules.
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He was the right person for the time
Morgan, Kell – both could have filled Victor’s military shoes.
Victor, by remaining with his unit, is a waste of space of a Great House Leader as he is demonstrating he is incapable of ruling his empire!
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He did provide evidence
Only to a select few – never to the people as a whole and even then his “evidence” is a waste of space as anyone with any legal understanding will point out that his “evidence” is just made up dribble with absolutely no real proof.
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So you can defend Defiance from a real attack with a single lance?
You can cause severe damage with a single lance – shift change people travel from dropship to plant – soft target or are they protected all the way?
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use that to say Victor did what he did to 'save' the FC with his vision.
Question – how do you guide your empire -administratively, economically etc. as well as direct your entire military from a Command and Control perspective from a Mech cockpit?
An absentee leader is no leader at all.
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No, the novels didn't give us everything, but the sourcebooks did build on the information
So your character in the game has god-like powers at understanding what everyone is doing in the IS – thus equating to knowing everything from all novels / sourcebooks … ?
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So yeah he was indeed dropping hints and working with other groups like Team Banzai, Blackwell Industries, etc
Can you supply a list as to what he actually assisted them with? As besides training all he did was show off the new and improved star from the Spiders.
So yes he definitely assisted the IS in preparing for the Clans (heavy on the sarcasm)
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The Clan Invasion was a holy war for them, it was a return to their birthright, as told to them by old Nicky.
Really? Then can we have better writers who can actually demonstrate this in the novels etc?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 09:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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Suggest you relook into who controls Terra again. Show where it says the people on Terra have their own government that isn't Comstar. I don't recall anything even suggesting there was someone else in charge on Terra.
Give us names, where it says this, as well as what type of government is running Terra, if it isn't Comstar.
This is under the heading Terra in the wiki:
A shroud of secrecy descended over Terra while the quasi-mystical ComStar ruled the system. On Terra, they hid untold divisions of troops and protected Star League-era technology, while the Successor States blasted themselves back to the Industrial Revolution. ComStar ran their HPG network from the First Circuit Compound on Hilton Head Island.
The realms in question was the FS and LC, not the CC or the FWL, as it was about the border of the superstate growing, needing more troops to guard it. Context of the statement being missed again.
Don't understand business ventures in different cities? You need to have staff dealing with each location that live in that location. You lose money trying to sell ice in Alaska in the winter, but in Florida, it sells very well. Different locations have different tastes for other things as well. It is fact that a successful venture requires someone know the location you are operating in. Sending summer clothes to someone stationed at the north or south pole in winter is a horrible idea. And on top of this, you need to have someone coordinate all the different locations so as to make a plan that covers them all, more efficiently. Walmart having their regional warehouses is a prime example of this. Yet they also have staff dealing with distribution in Benton Arkansas, if I recall. Corporate HQ.
Again, that is saying the alt is the only way to go. The dog don't hunt, as the dog doesn't know what it is looking at, or so it seems in this case yet again. There is no reason to marry the Mariks into the Steiner-Davion lines, when you take out the DC. And that still doesn't solve the issues of bringing in the chaos the FWL brings into that mess. The TH did NOT marry any into the ruling line of the SL. Once the DC was defanged, the others would look for a beneficial solution.
Unless there is someone that will back up your thoughts that is on the board, it is only you that thinks the DC is the wrong choice.
Yeah, I mistyped. I meant Spain, not France. But you could use France and China or Iran, or something like that.
As for a buffer state, the same could be said of the FRR being a buffer state between the LC and DC. It requires the enemy to go thru the weaker nation before hitting parts of your border. SO unless you are going after the FWL, the CC remaining allows more focus everywhere. Once it falls, then you have to put more troops in that area.
Given the economic might of the FC, that wouldn't have been as hard as the developers wanted. Which is why they had to cut back on their own troop numbers.
War is not all conquered or nothing comes of it. Putting the DC in a hurt state, would force them to negotiate at a reduced position. The DC would settle if it meant being utterly destroyed otherwise. This is the same situation for the FWL and CC. If they seen it was surrender or die, they would surrender. A good negotiations might mean little disruption to the state. Otherwise, why would any war end without complete annihilation of the enemy?
The problem with the SL being clan run is you have to beat them in order to stop it. So far, nothing has been able to do so. And just because you are the new SL, doesn't mean everyone will flock to it to join. Which is part of a problem with names. People want to be part of the name, even if the substance is crap.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 09:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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And in a free society look what happens when the media and the law gets involved …
Funny. The statement that the quote answers said just that. Someone with power can make lives difficult in any society.
Not this again. The use of terms like Only viable solution is very much saying only one way to see this. Still not getting thru.
A holy war is ideology being put into attacking others. The clans holy war was to retake the holy land of Terra and restart the ideology that was the SL, with their vision. Just because you don't like that vision means it isn't true.
The amount of damage that would have been done with all clans attacking, and this would not be limited to their batchalls, but total warfare, would have kept the situation of reinforcements low. No single trinary fighting a battalion situation would have come from this. It would be drop a galaxy on each world, and rinse and repeat. Warships would be used to wipe out anything that isn't clan. So no reinforcements. No running from worlds. Pure annihilation of anything that resists. Nukes and bombardments are not necessary, with only a few rare occasions with bombardments. Taking out major military bases is about it. And as such, ship yards would not be safe from this attack. The clans could always build more, until you found their location.
If I recall, NAIS was based on the information found in the Halstead Collection. So something of importance was there.
I can field the refits far sooner then your warship will come off line. I can hit your construction facilities or even just occupy them so you can't finish, would be why you would do the refits as soon as you had the weapons. This does not mean you stop doing the warship research. But in order to have the weapons to test on a warship, they need to be built first. Hence, the refits as well. Get them out now, and start removing the enemies ability to move troops.
The Raven was built with tech available to the entire IS at the time. It wasn't like an ER laser in 3025. Secret locations would become targets once people found out where they were. There is no way the Dragoons could have mass produced those weapons and not been hit by all. Comstar would especially take them out. Quietly, but it would never end.
What is the end goal of painting the enemy as tyrants? Cause your people to fear them. Not sure why this logical step was missed.
Again, quoting those that never really had to make a choice between living, or dying immediately. Ben was never imprisoned and forced to choose between life or death in the moment. So sweet crap can be said, but when put into that situation, the outcome if far different. I would have done this, then they do what they were saying they wouldn't is very common in an overwhelming majority.
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ghostrider
07/14/22 09:45 PM
45.51.181.83
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Are you reading the same books as everyone else? Katherine did terrorize normal civvies from the shadows. Those that did not drop and worship her immediately were punished for having dared stand for more then a second. What do you think striking from the shadows is? A military strike on a world threatens all, not just a few. Collateral damage is regrettable, but you should have killed the person next to you when they didn't hurt themselves falling to the ground to worship at my feet. The famed gas explosion comes to mind here.
I will assume you mean Morgan Hasek, as Morgan Kell is one person. They could have helped, but not done the job instead of Victor. In both realms, Victor was a warrior, and as such, had to lead the forces into battle. Otherwise, he would be branded a coward, and hounded for that. Or did the use of any perceived weakness fail here? And Katherine would have done just that. There was nothing Victor could have done without being shown as weak. Not sure why this has to be stated, but I guess not all the puzzle is clear.
As the clans was a time sensative issue, and mom was still around at first, he did not have to focus on office work. And as said before, he was not needed in the office. You have aides and ministers trained to run the government while he is out. They do operate for long terms while the ruler is out of touch, or even dead. That is WHY the government has such things going on.
As with spreading rumors, only a few are needed. Those that did get the info, realized that they would have to side with against Katherine or be pulled into her schemes. Continue to support a person that killed millions and suffer along with her, or stay quiet and not deal with the fall out.
But the information was out there, not completely lacking as been the charge.
Do you really think the ruler of a nation does much to run day to day operations? Not even close. They make the large decisions, and even then, they allow those they trust to make them, until they get a chance to review it. Golfing trips of presidents show this.
You based the entire begining of the ALT on the source books not in game knowledge. The statement of the books filling in the facts was not about in game knowledge, but information the players would want to get the history and facts straight. Not sure why this had to be said either. Other then trying to get an argument going.
How do you know that the Dragoons didn't give the others some advanced tech? Or tactics that would counter the clans? Or even have them set up some research in order to close the gap quickly? The IS had the clan tech retro engineered rather quickly. How do you know it wasn't because of the support the Dragoons gave? How do you know the Dragoons didn't give the others information that helped form the concept that Comstar was working with the clans?
You want better writing, this is the wrong board to complain about it. The official board is where to go. They need to figure out everything before sending out the books, as the retcons seem to do more damage then good. But in the end, the story is going to be basic repeats of the past, as there is only so many ways you can create wars. Unless you add in aliens to get a greater threat. And at that point, I think most would stop dealing with new books.
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Requiem
07/15/22 02:10 AM
1.125.23.135
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Quote:
Suggest you relook into who controls Terra again. Show where it says the people on Terra have their own government that isn't Comstar.
Ok. I click on https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Terra
I then scan down the page to Infrastructure, Ruler
President of the Terran Congress Chris Windsor-Cameron (3076)
Governor, Richard Guilani (3130)
Legate, Helen Richter (3130)
Um… can someone fix the dates Richard and Helen …. Other than that we can clearly see that the people of Terra have their own government that isn’t ComStar.
Can I ask why it is so difficult to just have a look at the complete site prior to making a comment?
Also – can someone please explain how a small Clan force like Clan Wolf govern Terra when in 3130 the population is 12,678,000,000 – as this once more defies all logic.
Also - if we use the percentage per capita of each world that forms each planet’s regular military how many hundreds of regular regiments are on Terra, including air-force and armoured, that the Clans would have to fight to win the planet. Thus can we say once more that the idea of the Clans Taking Terra is once more a huge joke!
Sorry but the idea of two clans who fight each other to a bloody pulp then being allowed to take Terra without a fight with the planet’s regular forces is beyond ludicrous of the highest order!
Quote:
Don't understand business ventures in different cities?
Suggest looking into globalization and why large corps. take advantage of local resources in foreign countries. e.g. Tesla is now in USA, Germany and China ….
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There is no reason to marry the Mariks into the Steiner-Davion lines
At this stage the FWL has two choices – 1. Join into Marriage with the FC o become the FFC or 2. Face invasion and conquest by the FC … it is simpler to marry into the FC and then your grandchild takes the throne (and become part of the solution that reforms the SL) than it is to engage in a war that will ultimately destroy the FWL.
Quote:
the same could be said of the FRR being a buffer state between the LC and DC.
Really .. if we don’t take into account the lunacy of the Lyrans giving back the RR how great if the RR as a buffer state?
They would be conquered in one month flat … so yes they really are an effective buffer state (heavy on the sarcasm)
Quote:
Given the economic might of the FC, that wouldn't have been as hard as the developers wanted.
Then where are all the new BattleMech / Aerospace Regiments given the economic might of the FC …
Quote:
Putting the DC in a hurt state
Pointless circa 3039. By obtaining the CC they are increasing the economic might of the FC .. thus in the future destroy the DC with an overwhelming force of arms …
Quote:
you have to beat them in order to stop it. So far, nothing has been able to do so.
Except for rational thought as well as TPTB favouring them above all others – Pax Clan.
Logic dictates that they would fall over during their initial invasion circa 3050 – Logistics, non existent, Sibko numbers replacement personnel non existent, ability to police worlds with a large population, non existent
Sorry but the Clans have more holes than Swiss cheese when it comes to their ability to invade the IS …
Quote:
Only viable solution
And who is bring it up?
Quote:
A holy war is ideology being put into attacking others.
In a holy war you do not stop EVER! The head of the religious movement is driving them on …. Also how many religious sermons do you see the clans attending where the priest stands up and provides a sermon before going into battle …
Quote:
No single trinary fighting a battalion situation would have come from this.
Question – how many times were conventional forces allowed to fight in the battle at the same time as the Mechs
So when hit by Artillery, Armour, Mass LRMs, VTOL and Aerospace forces all at the same time in a kill box how does the mighty clans survive? They are not ready to fight IS style they only know how to fight in a box!
They would be chewed alive!
Quote:
Warships would be used to wipe out anything that isn't clan.
And the second this commences we are now in a nuclear war where ever clan force will be hit with multiple 100 mega ton warheads …
So great and wonderful we are back to fighting the Jihad again … however this time the kid gloves are off so good luck in coming back from that!
Quote:
I can field the refits far sooner then your warship will come off line.
Semantics based upon whom the Game Master is … I can just as easily say may warships have been in production for months and thus I will have a 100 coming off the line in 2 days …
Quote:
The Raven was built with tech available to the entire IS at the time.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raven
“was one of the first truly original 'Mech designs produced in centuries.”
How about the ECM how many had this electronic warfare device when it came off the line?
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Cause your people to fear them.
Suggest researching propaganda …
Quote:
Ben
Quote:
I would have done this, then they do what they were saying they wouldn't is very common in an overwhelming majority.
So the American war of independence war wrong and the American colonists should have surrendered to the English Red Coats as this was the better option?
Quote:
Katherine did terrorize normal civvies from the shadows.
Book, page number and quote please
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Victor was a warrior
Really, how did that warrior go in his first couple of battles as well as when he was saved by Kai with the detonation of explosives in the gash?
Also a ruler is expected to be in the C&C bunker directing ALL the units not just the one he is with on a single planet!
Then you have to ask how great a statesman was he when he was never home completing the government tasks expected of a ruler …
Incompetent does not begin to describe the level of stupidity he brings to the battlefield and to the wider war and his own state.
Quote:
rumors
So we are back to Cat TV and Dog TV – whom you listen to is whom you believe is providing you with the truth, whereas both are just incompetent and biased as the other!
Rumours are just that Rumours … where is the truth?
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Do you really think the ruler of a nation does much to run day to day operations?
Then why have a leader at all – get rid of them all and we can just let the heads of each government department run the government for the state …
Civil war in 5 seconds flat! As well as an empire that is unbale to defend or attack.
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How do you know that the Dragoons didn't give the others some advanced tech?
For someone that professes the sanctity of the Canon Word and how accurate it is – where is the proof that they did where is written that they did these benevolent acts on the part of the IS?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 11:52 AM
45.51.181.83
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Yeah. I guess you didn't see that 3076 was during WOBs ownership of the world. So at that point, Comstar wasn't in charge of the world. I would also question if that was just a puppet set up as well. But from the time Comstar was put in charge of the HPG network to that time, there doesn't look like any government beyond Comstar.
Given the time frame of the Wolf clan invasion of Terra, how many people are actually in the military? It seems a lot less soldiers are kept in garrisons, probably due to the fact that you don't require that many with only one government on the world. Cost cutting would be done as the big bad stompy mechs are there to protect them. But it has been stated, the concept of even 10,000 soldiers running an entire hostile world does not work.
Each branch has their own logistics. legal resources, and such, and when Tesla expands to another country, they will have to expand their work force to cover those as well. Then even more are needed to keep up with the expansions at home. It gets to a point that costs start limiting growth for companies. The type of product does influence how many workers are needed. Computers have cut down this number dramatically, but you still need living bodies to deal with some jobs. Inventory needs to be done every so often, as things are not always updated in a system properly. Governments form new departments, but because some of the old ones are required by law, and not updated, still remain, even though most, if not all, of their responsibilities are handled by the new department. So each addition adds to the overhead of people needed. New layers put into effect.
Try playing some city building games. Need, power? New plant. You don't have the funds for it? Need a new set of roads? No funds for it? All entities that pay their bills, deal with this.
So how did marrying into the SL work? Again. There is no reason, other then it is your idea, to have the FWL marry into the FC. The very concept of someone from the FWL taking over the throne is a very good reason why not to allow it. Even without assassinations, accidents do happen, and it is possible down the line, that it might come down to it. Also, there are some on both sides of that issue, that are just like the DC scenario with Omi.
A non marriage political agreement can be done. Would it last? Doubt it. Even a marriage doesn't mean it will last. Hell, the next civil war might see the FWL portion grow larger.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 12:19 PM
45.51.181.83
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Sarcasm works. It is funny that you don't understand what a buffer state is, given the response. It is meant to give another nation time to respond to an attack. It was not designed to stop the attack. So that month spent taking out the FRR means the DC/LC has time to get defenses moving and mobilize troops. If done right, you get your reinforcements into the buffer state to keep the fighting there, instead of in your lands.
Basic logic. Again. Not sure why this had to be said.
Why wait to start taking out the DC? The amount of industry that the CC might have offered was not that great with the exception of the ship manufacturers. Taking worlds from the DC means hurting their ability to use forces against you, as well as taking what they have. The FC did have overwhelming force, but did not have secrecy to redo the 4th war, as well as not knowing Comstar got involved. The problem was the FC did not want a repeat of the 4th war depression that happened because of the use of so many ships. The stupidity of the weekly meetings of the LC forces is what eventually stopped the invasion. The surprise of the new units was some of it, but losing the entire LC push was what did it.
It also means they held ships up for command circuits from all of the officers that attended the meeting. They had to be moved to and from the meetings, meaning even less being used to move troops and supplies.
Logic does not dictate the clans would be defeated during the first invasion. Until the IS was able to finally figure out how to deal with them, the clans had the advantage locally. Strategically is where they were defeated. As with almost any successful raiders, overwhelming the local defenses is key. A small raiding force and bring a larger force to defeat by hit and run. The larger force is stuck guarding everything, which means less forces in any one area.
The fact the IS never hit worlds already taken by the clans is a sore point. Comstar covering for the clans pretty much made sure this didn't happen.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 12:47 PM
45.51.181.83
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The continued use of only way things can be done keeps coming up in responses on your end. There is no definite answers when it comes to canon, but it is how the game proceeds. The logic produced does not fit with the scenario brought up to counter canon. Wording is why the only viable solution situation keeps popping up. Again, put up the alt so all can read or leave it out of arguments with canon.
So far, the logic shown is faulty at best.
The clans have acted in the way they are presented. They believe they are superior, so made some simple mistakes as they could not fathom the enemy being able to oppose them. And as stated before, the DC would never have formed if they had used the proper amounts of soldiers to take worlds from others. They would not have had enough after the third or fourth world. So start there with this situation, and then work up to the clans.
Given the fact that the clans had nukes, it would not be a one way affair if nukes were used. The big issue is the clans can jump in, launch, and jump back out before you can do anything. Given the Bugeye description of their jumps, you probably wouldn't even know they were there until the missiles/bombs hit the world. This would go against the clans ways, but had they invaded like they should have, it would have been done, once nukes were used against them.
Holy wars isn't just about religion. It also starts from hatred. The use of an almighty deity helps push the warriors on, but in the clans, they don't worship anything but being the ultimate warrior. As stated, the term holy war is not clear cut as you might think.
A GM can have the REF from Robotech, or the Death Star show up in a game. Given the fact that the Helm Core was given to all houses except the CC at about the same time, it is easy to assume most discoveries will come about the same time. Naval weapons would be done before warships could be designed, as they were built with specific weapons in mind. While trying to figure out how and where to add those weapons, they would be being produced during the warships research. So no. You will not be having warships done by the time I had naval weapons on dropships using real time logic. Granted, It is possible to find a weapons cache that allows you to do the research while the naval weapons are still being done. It still doesn't deal with building the engines for the warships. Oh yeah. Another step needed in order to make a warship.
The description in the Raven mech is wrong. The Hatchetman, Wolfhound, Axeman, and others were done within a century of the Raven. The Hatchetmans head assembly was the first of it's kind. The upgraded Raven was the first production model to use the ECM, but that does not mean the other houses didn't have the ECM ready.
So the first in centuries is incorrect.
Propaganda is slanting statements in order for people to think they way you want them do, in order to get them to do as you want. It is used by all, though some moreso then others, with a few being complete fabrications. Pretty much lying.
The independence war was fought because crimes committed by the crown, distance, and the fact others distracted the crown from sending their full might. With any war, how many actually fight? Only in a genocidal war, does a majority of the people go fight. Motivational speeches are done to get more to do something. Each person decides if they will fight or not. There were those that supported the crown in the U.S at the time as well.
Was it worth it? For the U.S. it was. It does not mean those that didn't actual fight, didn't do their part. Growing food, gathering intel, making supplies needed by the soldiers is another way to resist without actually firing a gun. But it is the soldiers that gain the credence for winning wars.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 01:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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Read the entire history of Katherine's rise to power. The used her status to intimidate and even remove those that upset her. Her actions showed all that if you did upset her, you would be punished. That is terrorizing as much as holding a gun to someone's head. The threat of violence to coerce action of others ring a bell? Extortion is a nicer word for it.
Where does it say Victor never was at the capital to deal with things? Not only communications being sent to deal with things the aides couldn't, but message bundles as well as him personally using the command circuits would be utilized. We know when Katherine went to make a deal with the clans, the entire Fc fell apart during her 3 month out of contact run. The FS ran fine while Ian and Hanse were in the field. All nations have had their leaders running the country from the field and none collapsed because of it. The fact is, Victor was NOT needed to sit in the throne room or else the nation would fall under it's own weight. If not for Katherine's ambitions, the FC would have been fine while he was dealing with the clans on Stana Mechty. Oh yeah, this would include his brothers and sisters dealing with things if the ministers and aides couldn't. Hmmm... Momma Melissa come to mind?
And again. Nondi ran the LC portion of the armed forces, and resisted Victor's commands. She did it her way and lost.
Rumors is what Katherine used to portrait all in a bad light. No facts to back it up, just innuendos and implications. And a lot of rumors have a small bit of truth in there. It might be as simple as the person being in the area. Rumors of an SL cache has lead to finding a treasure trove. So yeah. Who do you think is telling the truth, and how much of what they say is the truth is the key.
I tell my generals to take out an enemy. I know nothing of war, so you think that I have to suggest how they do so?
They tell me what they need, and honestly, I just ok it. I don't even have to be there. Just tell the quartermaster make it happen. I don't have to tell the minister of agriculture to turn on and off the water to the crops in the field. I don't tell the transportation department to start up the busses or trains. I don't tell the donut maker to make the donuts.
Leaders are there to make decisions when those in charge of departments have issues that require other departments input. Agreement between then is needed or someone has to make the choice. A good aide can do so without needing the leader involved.
Keeping an eye on things is a smart thing, but then I don't stand there snooping around. That is left to the intel and inspectors departments.
A CEO is a prime example of this. They have staff that does all the work, and all I need to do is have someone brief me, so I don't even have to read the reports. I say yes or no to things no one else can deal with. Which honestly shouldn't be all that much. And that can be done over the phone most of the time. If it was that difficult, then you could not be the CEO of multiple companies.
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Requiem
07/15/22 06:35 PM
1.125.21.111
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Terran Government – research Terran Affairs – the liaison between ComStar and the citizens of Terra.
Not only must the Wolf’s contend with Terra – they also need to contend with Venus, Mars and the Belters (I hope there is enough differences between BattleTechs Belters and the Expanse Belters or there is going to be trouble again!)
Also as each world is an Island unto themselves the idea they don’t have a conventional military force becomes hard to believe …
Also suggest taking a business course on Globalization … as way off the mark as to why corporations take advantage of local resources especially with regards to Tesla’s giga-factories.
FWL – Historically speaking any alliance between great states has always been conducted via a marriage - so being conquered by the FC in the absence of the Clans is the way to go?
Buffer state – you do realise that this is a space faring community, thus any military can be just transported through the RR and attack the DC directly (as does anyone believe the RR will attack the FC - Lyrans directly?) – suggest having a look at a map as to width and length of a RR that does not include Lyran worlds – it is hardly an obstacle for Jumpships to bypass.
In a space faring society buffers only exist if the width of he realm is great enough to induce a time lag with regards to logistics and you are only allowed to use existing travel routes – however the concept of hidden worlds and hidden transport routes can also be applied where a state can locate a string of habitable hidden worlds to be used as forward operating bases from which to strike at an enemy deep into their space. It is really not that hard to imagine any state utilizing the hidden world doctrine at any time for their own benefit – the problem is TPTB never allowed any state other than Comstar / WoB to utilize this – which again you have to wonder why?
Also suggest you re-read the forum created by me as to why the CC and not the DC should have been the target of 3039 war as it included all CC industries on every world provided … way in excess of anything the DC could provide the FC … thus once more making the CC the tempting target it is rather than the DC
And yes logic does dictate that the Clan would loose the First Invasion – Sibko numbers and the Loss Depletion Report per Clan, as per basic logic, indicates a vast discrepancy – also tyranny of distance as to Clan Logistics also indicates a fatal flaw in their invasion – just ask Napoleon and the Nazi’s when attacking Russia – and then there is the inability to hold what they have taken as they do not have the forces necessary to hold the number of worlds they have taken – then there is the idea of partisans and IEDs / assassinations etc.…. Sorry but the Clan invasion as provided is ludicrous in the extreme given the small military fleet size. It just does not work!
Then there is the point that the IS would come together far earlier than given to form a united front ….
The invasion as provided is completely and utterly a bad joke on steroids …
clans can jump in, launch, and jump back out before you can do anything. – problem is you have to know the exact coordinates of all pirate points and even then, a jump causes shock waves that can be detected by the forces garrisoned on the world – then there is the issue of worlds hat have bunkers to survive nuclear war ….
Sorry but the IS has way more nukes than the Clans – so unless they want to stay in space and never have land fall again this is going to get nasty for both sides. Also the I was under the impression that both the Bugeye and the Pony Express Jumpship (Pre HPG times) are no longer allowed in the game.
Sorry but Holy War is just that clear cut! Suggest looking on the web for examples!
Semantics – yes I can have warships even if they are just jolly-Rodger armed merchantmen – as long as you have the biggest gun on the block with the longest range you can stand off and blaze away at enemy ships if they do not have the range to fire back … even dropships with naval weapons can use this principle. (If TPTB allowed the conversion – however any state would so home mods are now required …)
Question – did he Hatchetman incorporate an ECM? How about either the Wolfhound or the Axman?
Propaganda – how many bought into what was said? Especially when Victor said his sister killed their brother – when it was discovered by a copper on the ground that he was kidnapped – info sold to Uncle Chandy …..
And yet Victor didn’t care to read the report?
So massive ooooppppps there!
Crimes committed by the crown – since when did taxation become a crime?
Sending their full might – ow that pesky war within Europe at the same time?
That said was Ben correct – as this still hasn’t been answered?
Ben Franklin
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
Also consider where Ben was during the war of independence ….
used her status to intimidate and even remove those that upset her – so normal operating procedure to running an interstellar government, what’s the problem?
Where does it say Victor never was at the capital to deal with things? – how about his bio that shows where he is throughout his entire life.
All nations have had their leaders running the country from the field and none collapsed because of it. – Only because TPTB do not have the imagination to understand what happens here – it doesn’t work, the leader must be on the capitol world to keep the government going – only minor times away with a regent does the system keep working.
Rumours – televised transcripts of what she is doing / tabloid exposés etc again normal operating procedure ….
I tell my generals to take out an enemy. I know nothing of war, so you think that I have to suggest how they do so? – what a great way to loosing your empire! Ignore what is going on and keep your head buried in the sand, ow how your people will rejoice that you do not care about their pain and suffering as well as why they are dying to keep you on the throne in the lap of luxury.
And yes having a OK policy to every piece of paper placed on your desk what a great way to becoming the most incompetent ruler ever created …
A CEO is a prime example of this. They have staff that does all the work, and all I need to do is have someone brief me – and ten minutes later the company has fallen over …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 07:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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Might need to put that thought into all the systems defended in all the succession wars and the clan invasion. Multiple worlds had to be dealt with in more then one system. Hesperus has at least 2 worlds that are inhabited. 2 is the most famous for the main factory.
When all people are supposed to be one government, the only real 'need' for security comes from pirates and rebels. So a standing military isn't necessary. Normal security forces should do. So not was many or as well trained as the military is supposed to be. And if anything like a lot of companies today, they are understaffed and lacking full gear.
Taking advantage of local sources is still having to have local offices. So you still need to add more people to run the company. That means more stress on money flow. If done right, this is not an issue. But it still means having more staff.
When saying great states, are you talking the 5 major ones? Or all of the smaller ones that became the 5? More then a few of the smaller ones did so without a marriage involved. Most were conquests that ended in an agreement.
Still not getting buffer state, I see. The need for depots and such comes up, but it is the time it takes to move thru the area. If the LC hit the DC near Terra, they could have just walked straight in. Hitting in the FRR area, they have to travel across the FRR in order to enter the DC. This gives them some time to get things going. But yes. Space nations are a bit different then land bound ones in that fact.
Don't need to reread the reasons. They don't bear enough realistic logic to work properly. It has some points, but not more then hitting the DC. The CC and FWL combined are not as much of a threat to the FC as the DC is.
Once the main threat is gone, you get to demand more from the others, as they have little choice to resist.
Eventually, the reinforcement of the clan front line would suffer, but not for a while. If they were used like they should have been, the FRR would be completely gone as well as the rest of the clans being without 4 jumps of Terra. Luthien and Tharkad would have been hit hard if not taken. The main thing that slowed them down was the time schedule they made for themselves. With more clans involved, it would have been accelerated more then what the Wolves did.
Holding the worlds is always a sore point with the game and realism. As stated a few times, the DC would never have formed if that was taken into account.
Bugeye was removed as it violated the construction rules, if I recall. The pony express is the same thing as the command circuit, just a different name.
As for the number of nukes, until you have some targets, they don't matter as much. So the clans were safe until the home worlds were found.
The jump point data the SLDF took with them only needs an update, and that isn't so difficult. They found the jump points to all worlds without needing Comstar to update them. They may even know more pirate points then the IS does in systems. As stated in another thread, the galaxy is constantly moving. So the light you see today is years out of date on where the systems are now.
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ghostrider
07/15/22 08:16 PM
45.51.181.83
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Semantics? You just showed why dropships with naval weapons would be a great step before warships would have been done. They could stand at range and pepper things with harder hitting power then even an LRM 20 or normal gauss rifle. A small fleet of them could remove all defenses around a world quickly. Fighters being the exception. And that could be dealt with in a few ways. Running them out of fuel is a good way. As you can hit their carriers to make sure they can not be recovered in the system away from worlds. Jumping out when you can, catching them in the jump wash is another.
Taxation was the last straw, so got the main focus.
How many colonies and such needed guarding as well as all the merchant lanes? Again, the concept that you do not have to protect more then just one location shows up again. So no. The full might could not be brought to bear. And France did blockade the U,K. to help with the revolution. Something that couldn't have happened if the U.K. had a majority of their forces near the U.S.
How many battles did Ben actually fight? Unlike George, I haven't heard of a single one.
So the ECM is the only reason why it was so great? The full head ejection of the Hatchetman was nothing? The hatchet itself was nothing? No other model before it had that incorporated into it.
Unlike Melissa's death, that was an a mistake. Didn't change the fact that Katherine was killing people to gain power. Nothing you say will change this fact.
And yet a command circuit can have him at the capital in less then 2 days, and back out in less then a week. Hmmm. Sounds like a flaw in the logic there. As stated, there is nothing saying he was never there. Just that most of the time he was in the field.
The one exception is when going to the clans home worlds.
How many leaders of countries in the world go to other nations to discuss things? They are gone for weeks at times and yet none of those nations failed. Real world nations, not the game nations. So real fact negates your concept here.
Your reaction says it all. I do NOT have to sit there dealing with things. I have others that bring me briefings. It does NOT mean I have left them without a watchdog. I do not have to tell them hit this town, or shoot that strong point. It is also why you have people you trust in command of things. Something that seems to be overlooked in a lot of responses..
What company has done that? Most of the time, they fail because the CEO screws the company over, and this is on purpose. The fact that they do not deal with collecting the data is a main point. The recommendation of those with the knowledge is normally what sticks. The CEO is there to rubber stamp it. Sometimes it is wrong, and sometimes it is right. When wrong, they replace the staff that suggested the solution. The CEO normally doesn't get replaced. What happenes? Oh yeah. Bad advice from those below them. Overpaid to lie.
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Requiem
07/16/22 09:21 AM
1.125.22.227
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Really?
One Government with no standing military just a security force – In a space faring community Amaris proved that a hidden military can be created to which they can overthrow the one government.
V, “People shouldn’t be afraid of their government. Governments should be afraid of their people.”
How can you increase profits with a static product line that refuses to consider growth into new markets?
He need for depots in a space faring community – with the hidden world doctrine they can be created years in advance of any invasion – again just ask Amaris, ComStar , WoB, the Clans, Wolf’s Dragoons and the Wolverines as the marvels of hidden worlds. And yet a point no one else even considered even with historical precedence. TPTB created a wonderful space opera!
So let me get this straight – it is better to hit a harder target first (that has the capability of mortally wounding you) – than it is to strike a vulnerable target that will enable your forces increase in volatility / quickly – as you want to leave them to last just so you can make a point.
Whereas if you did destroy the weakest first your Leader would be the First to ever kill off a Great House and take their realm for his own.
Really? On what universe is this even remotely viable?
Construction Rules – Warships
Sorry but I am under the impression that every construction yard should have their own rules – sale for Dropships and Jump-ships as designs and underlining technology would change from yard to yard …
Having a standardized rule base system may be great for a simple game – yet the problem is that simple craft like PTs are not allowed within the Clan Invasion when he one eyed king can see they are necessary for the continuation of a logical technological development (requirement) of the early stages of the war.
P.S. the Clans bids cannot reach Terra as they run out of forces (no they bid) way before reaching Terra.
None of the Khans sat down and attempted basic maths to work it out!
Jump point Data – of every pirate point? Really?
Yes dropships with large guns sounds like a good idea – problem is the amount of armour they have (one hit and your dropship is dead – can this be said with a warship?) as well as the amount of electronics (Radar etc) (Can they find you first due to advanced electronics) they have as well as he amount of fighters they carry (can their fighters find you first and call in the big guns?) as well as the amount of Dropships (interlocking field of fire over a wider area) they can carry that may also have large guns on them also …
Taxation was the last straw – and here I though it was due to the utilization of the taxation on the importation of Indian Tea which was being used to bail out the East India Corp.
French Blockade – Bay of Biscay 12/12/1781
How many battles did Ben actually fight? Unlike George, I haven’t heard of a single one.
Really? Has the US education system fallen so far? – served from 1776 to 1178 on commission to France – he was charged with the task of gaining French Support for American Independence – his war was that of Diplomat, not all were fighting on the front lines commanding troops!
So how important was French assistance, that he gained, during the War?
What is he strategic and tactical importance of an ECM on the battlefield?
Katherine was killing people to gain power – and how did that work out for Victor to maintain power and to gain power and to just stay alive due to his incompetence as a c.o. – and ordering the execution of a lord whom he suspected of treason and yet could not prove, or how about a young boy whom he let die in a hospital far from family just because he wanted to maintain his military supplies – that resulted in a war of his own making?
Blood is on everyone’s hands! So situation normal …
And yet a command circuit can have him at the capital in less than 2 days and back out in less than a week – Really where is this mythological staging point is it anywhere in the IS, if so this quantum leap in transport time will make wars far more interesting.
How many leaders of countries in the world go o other nations to discuss things – what is the distance from one point in the world to another and can communication be controlled by a third party?
So on earth distance is in Km where as in space it is in light years – communication on earth is not interrupted as you have our own satellite where as in space you are at the whims of ComStar …
Some how this reads like comparing an apple to a pineapple … and saying they are the same.
Sorry but a CEO’s position if far more onerous and time consuming than what is considered …
Really? The CEO screws the company over on purpose and is only there as a rubber stamp? this statement is the thunderous.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 11:44 AM
45.51.181.83
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Having a military that can destroy a city in a few hours, and having a security force that is set to deal with people is not the same thing, but the security force is more able to handle a rebellion. As law abiding citizens, weapons such as missile launchers and even battle mech, not worker mechs, would not be in large supplies.
Yes, they can be shipped in, which is why customs and such exist. Smuggling will be the next point to deal with.
Power armor would be more helpful in a city fight then a single battlemech.
Having a standing military is expensive, and unnecessary. But this is not clear. I did not mean having no forces, just nothing larger then say a company of mechs with maybe a battalion of tanks. Part of what the national guard is for. This is especially true for smaller populations.
it is not said that you can't grow. It was pointed out that when you do, you add in more costs, with some getting to the point of losing money. Play simcity or some other city building game sometime. Might be boring to some, but it does teach you the balance required to running things. Add in a new police force, and it costs for the build, and running it. Water pumps? Power plant? Fire department? All force the same things. Reduced budget when they are first put down, helps but there is only so much income, and a lot of things have to be dealt with. City Skylines is very interesting upgrade of a city builder. There are others.
So you will pull forces off a border with the most dangerous enemy, in order to hit someone like Hawaii? You deal with the biggest threat as soon as you can. The DC could well have hit the FC and taken worlds, maybe even destroying production facilities that you need later on. And capturing intact factories is not guaranteed in the CC. If they are going to die, why allow the enemy to use those facilities?
Yes, they still pose a danger, but nothing like the DC does. And in the end, when you control all, but have some puppet running the other areas, you have a fall back of saying all bad thing are because of the local leader. Also, you force someone else to make the hard choices of keeping the people alive and happy, while you remain clear of the crap.
Also, you would not have to fight for all of the lands, as the weaker ones would fold quicker then a strong nation.
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ghostrider
07/16/22 12:04 PM
45.51.181.83
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The Bugeye was a violation of the games construction rules. When they changed the jump drive rules, the Bugeye did not meet the requirements. Think the drive was too small. I believe it was smaller then the Scout Jumpship.
Actually, the Wolves had figured out part of that issue. They knew it was foolish to invade the IS.
But this does show the issues with the IS military as well. A single regiment of infantry is not enough to protect worlds that are on hostile borders. Security forces can be used for most, but the numbers is the key. By the way, security forces include police, constables and other such law enforcement entities.
Every pirate point isn't that far fetched. They ruled for a few centuries, with their spies and such having to have ways to enter systems and not be detected. They would have mapped the entire IS for no other reason that to protect against insurrections. They have a far better understanding on how worlds react to gravity shifts in a system. They knew things like where to put Camelot Command, so it would allow jumpship to pull out of a jump. Most pirate points don't change over centuries. The open and close as gravity is shifted because of objects in that system.
I would believe other objects would change this as well, as other systems do influence the system as well. A passing planet may well change the gravity while it is in the area.
SO why did you moan about not having dropships with big weapons?
As stated, they would have been done while the warships are being built. And as for the argument of why have them if they die so quickly? Because your warships can not be everywhere, and dropships are more likely to be guarding multiple jump points, unlike a single war ship. With a successful strike, I can destroy your warship production rather quickly with the big gunned dropships. And you would not have much to defend with.
Building a secret base is much easier when no one is watching. Once they suspect, it is much harder to do so.
Taxation was the last straw – and here I though it was due to the utilization of the taxation on the importation of Indian Tea which was being used to bail out the East India Corp.
Isn't this taxation? The increased amount of tax was what finally got the colonies to say no more crimes against the people. Didn't matter what it was used for, except it wasn't the help the colonists.
So you gave the answer of Ben. He served a purpose, but nothing in combat. So he was away from the suffering for a good portion of the war.
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