Karagin
08/19/22 07:48 PM
70.118.172.64
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The folks who might follow WoB will either join a faction or they will be one of the many who do something regardless. They are going those who are not going to be happy with the changes of power and will lash out.
Losing Terra means they lost Terra. If ComStar falls apart after that, they are truly just a corporation playing at being a government. I don't see them being anything of importance if they split. Parts will run for whoever will take them. Again, the majority who want the religion and such will flock to the FWL because their fake Thomas will welcome them since he can use them to keep his butt on the throne, and they will try to rebuild. The FWL might gain better HPG service for a while, but that's about it. I do not see a twenty-one-year buildup of insane military superpower that rips apart the Inner Sphere.
The FWL will not be picky, but they will also be rushing to deal with the Clans that, in this version of things, will be right on their borders. So the new neighbors will be expected to help now, not in two decades. So no, there will be nothing like the silliness of the WoB and their ubermensch insanity.
The parts of ComStar in the CC will likely end up working for the Maskirovka. They will be there with the Death Commandos, taking the HPGs in the name of House Laio and ensuring they have the technology and ability to contact their agents around the Inner Sphere and control what is coming into the CapCon.
The Combine and their Bushido could be a two-edged sword, yes, some units will stand far too long and lose badly, but the newer units or those retrained under officers Theodore put in place will fall back and adjust to tactical changes. That was proven when his son took charge of things and was forced off the planet as things went pear-shaped. So it could be a weakness, but one that its ending would help not hurt the Combine. They can have the honor code, but not to the point of asinine insanity.
The SDS. That is something of an issue yes, now if we go with the version of things that the Sol System is indeed FUBAR as we are told, doubtful even back in the day, then yes, it would mean that the Wolves hitting the system would not have to deal with it, since ComStar would not have rebuilt it. Yet, we know Kerensky was already repairing stuff IN the Sol System after the SLDF retook it from Amaris. So that would be one of the first things they would be working on. Now would the SDS be up to full strength and able to match the levels of the SL era? Doubtful, but it would be at least partially operational, which would be enough to keep the House militaries away from the Sol System and thus keeping ComStar's control in place.
Remember, all the books we read are normally written and presented to use BY ComStar. So things are going to be slanted or "edited" a bit.
At some point, one or more of the Houses would have ordered more jumpships; it would make sense to have new ones coming off the lines since they still have factories to make the ships for the most part. Would the numbers be enough to have huge fleets? No, but then again, recall, no one had massive warship fleets. What they had were Fleets In Being. That means they have some ships that look dangerous and pretty, but no one will risk them because they can't afford to replace them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/19/22 08:07 PM
45.51.181.83
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The reason for bringing up the SDS system was because the SLDF would have taken that tech with them, yet the retcon didn't put the information in with the clans.
This is important if it stays in the what if, as it would radically change the clans on how they operate, as they would have a larger emphasis on aero forces.
The warships and even dropships used would probably have some sort of system on them, making the suicide run unlikely to work.
It would also mean the clans would have figured out a way to lessen or even nullify the system. By code or maybe the advanced ECM they use could do so.
This could also be used to surprise IS forces into committing an attack on an area that has such a system, probably waiting until they were fully committed in order to bag the most ships they could. I would think being burned a couple of times would make the IS very leery of even trying an attack or raid on a world held for a while by the clans.
The irony of Comstar giving out the intel in a lot of books would mean they knew of the black boxes for writing them, including the 4th war. This is not going to effect the thread, but just another oooops by TPTB.
The risk of the clans targeting the jumpships is very dangerous to the IS. Not trying to make a huge fleet, but losing what they have, forcing even more sacrifices, as they would not be able to jump as many forces into other systems. Might even have to go with leaving any forces in a system, as they could not risk trying to get them out if there is a clan presence there.
There is no doubt that the houses would have ordered larger orders of jumpships. That is a given in a time of war. But would it be enough? Or soon enough to make a difference?
If we go with jumpships being targets, this becomes even more problematic.
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Requiem
08/19/22 08:55 PM
1.147.88.67
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Morgan going through that kind of trouble
Morgan Kell will have to communicate through the Marshal of the Armies – Morgan Hasek-Davion.
The problem is Nondi Steiner – she would most definitely be in the Phelan is a traitor to the Lyran People – let’s put him up against the wall and shoot him Camp.
The real question is will Morgan Hasek-Davion listen to a request by the wardens – and will he be able to get Hanse / Melissa on board?
This will require a face to face summit Ulric / Morgan Hasek-Davion to iron out their request(s) for the future – Again will Nondi allow this to even occur?
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what the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedComwhat the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedComwhat the Falcons are planning or the Jaguars, minor things, but enough to help the Combine and the FedCom
Until they are joined in battle against a common enemy Ulric will not betray his fellow Clans – his code of hour will not allow it.
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He might hold fame and be saKahn of the Wolves
Again forgetting Clan’s DNA racial purity requirements.
Half of his DNA may be recognised as from a “Clan Originator” strain – however, the other half is purely IS – his overall DNA is not pure enough. Also he was brought up within the IS – he was never brought up via a true Clan sibko within the Kerensky Cluster – He was a BondsMan!
Therefore, he will never have the political support form his fellow warriors who are true racially pure clan warriors to be allowed to take command of sqat!
TPTB cannot create a society based upon racial purity then say we can break this rule – get a grip, once this is in place it is in place! Phelan is not pure enough (DNA and place of birth) to be allowed to obtain a high rank within the Clans it is just wrong!
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the clans are not one to just destroy a city for the hell of it
And Turtle Bay never occurred …
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No one can really predict what the CC will do
And moving in a straight line is too difficult to predict …. Also captured Clansman once becoming IS bondsman (POWs) are known for being soooo tight lipped on discussing why the Clans are superior to the IS and why the IS should give up …
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They would have had to have known the IS had no idea on their batchall
And Wolfs Dragoons never explained this …
Anastasius Focht – no he didn’t ever understand this to the point of destroying most clans!
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It is interesting that he did not play a much bigger part in the later stories.
Really? How many other characters merc. units were just written out – the story is rife with killing off anyone they didn’t want … This is why the Jihad era and everything else becomes a pitiful story line …
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would have had an SDS system working
Only on Camelot Command and Terra – and no it does not remove land combat … this is why here needs to be rules of war established post Turtle Bay otherwise the story just becomes pointless to the point of stupidity.
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why the clans didn't have the SDS guarding the genetic repositories
Because they don’t need to may be the point – the fate of the wolverines makes this crystal clear why you do not have to guard the repository.
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Even just a few ground based naval weapons would have stopped the slaughter of the children.
Sorry do not know what this applies to? Elucidate please.
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the clans ways were not resisted on Arc-Royal
Could that be due to the fact that one – they are not attacking anyone – and two they are not converting anyone to a Clansman – and three they are there to defend the IS from the other Clans – and four they are commanded by Morgan Kell’s son the Liege Lord of the Planet?
So protesting is pointless …. Unless they step out of line and do something stupid.
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the Falcon-Wolf war does not happen
Then how does Phelan and his wolves get to Arc Royal without the Falcon-Wolf War?
Also if the wolves went rogue wouldn’t all other clans be duty bound to initiate a trial of annihilation against them for going rogue?
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I don't see the Arc-Royal thread being important
No not important at all – Arc Royal is only harbouring clan traitors – this isn’t important at all – the falcons would just ignore them …..
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the only reason the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon came into existence was to remove a chunk of the LC/LA out of Katherine hands, during the Civil war.
And Morgan Hasek-Davion wouldn’t create it as a means to fighting the clans on a broad front …
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It could be possible that Phelan is killed by someone once they figure out who he is
Nondi Steiner and ComStar – though if proof of ComStar’s perfidy has been supplied it is a little bit too late to close the door after the horse has bolted.
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I can see him believing he is immune to being sniped
Yes he is that arrogant …
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This may also push Ulric into being that much harsher on the Comstar defenders
Problem – they are now his allies if he goes down the Warden Vs Crusader War scenario ….
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Natasha
Can someone remember how old she is?
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if Comstar did pop Phelan, this could have a very nasty effect on Morgan and even the Dragoons.
Proof they did it first … given their track record of killing off individuals it is highly unlikely that they will be caught.
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If Phelan becomes Khan of the Wolves, then there is a problem. He would become the big focus.
Yes every Clansman who believes that they are more racially pure than him will desire to kill him … as he is “mud-blood” (Harry Potter) and not pure in his DNA.
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How does he handle the IS being the head of the Ilclan?
Problem – he in now in command of renegade clan force – kill on sight – thus making his ability to Il-Khan and Il-Clan highly dubious in the eyes of true Clansman.
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Not sure if Natasha will outlive Ulric.
Can someone explain how Natasha is even in this story given her age?
Also 3050 – Ulric is 53. Natasha is 77.
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Prince Ragnar
Really? He is an IS Bondsman who passed his trial of position – 100% freeborn – PGC commander only!
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Reinforcements for all, not just the Wolves should be gone over as well. Unless they had increased the amount of sibkos years before the vote, would a reaving happen? Or something else done to keep the numbers there?
Once loss depletion level reached critical levels – clans have two serious options – trials of reaving upon other clans or trial of absorption – or one they would not consider – more freeborn warriors (same as IS).
Sorry but any real sibko numbers increase is going to take 18 years at a minimum – so can we get a little reality in the game.
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Bondsmen could solve part of this issue.
Can I laugh now?
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the Wolves might start using vehicles in the front lines
1. Where are they getting these vehicles from – are they built in the IS?
2. Who is going to crew them – the wolves believe in one person to a vehicle – so unless these vehicles are also one person only who is going to accept the humiliation of becoming part of a crew within a vehicle.
3. Why create a warrior crew for 1 vehicle when each person in that vehicle should be an independent warrior with their own vehicle? Mentality …
Offset losses – first you will have to change clan wolf’s mentality / traditions etc - so not going to happen any time soon.
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As a full roster of the clans that did participate is not available
Really?
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The fact the Bears brought their people into the IS
And if you do the mathematics of this it is shown that this is impossible unless they had hundreds of transport ships – and as they didn’t this becomes impossible!
Reality Please!
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I will suggest the Wolves thought this out and had a few 'extra guards' on their supply ships
Why bother TPTB forbid the IS or other Clans from attacking these logistics ships?
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Do you think that the people that were to become WOB, would go rogue and actually attack the clans without orders?
First how has the schism within the ComGuard even occurred yet to form the WoB?
Second – does anyone want to go against Anastasius Focht at this point in time by disobeying his orders?
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Or would they propose the Comstar actually surrender or become an extension of the clans?
Really? No Really? With Anastasius Focht in charge of the ComGuard?
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But losing Terra removes a large chunk of their power hold they had in canon.
Really? I guess the concept of government in exile was never considered – just like when WoB conquered Terra?
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SDS system
Doesn’t fit with their Bidding / Trial of …. Circle of equals style of combat – was just ignored and forgotten until IS started using it.
Even then it is computer AI – no true warrior would use such a system – no honour in using it!
This is why they use Aerospace fighters – with warriors - with their ships – honourable fighting!
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The DC side with their bushido outlook would be a mess.
Problem – Theodore has reformed this.
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having them specifically destroying jumpships
Problem – this is a waste of resources – more efficient to capture and use them for the glory of the Clans.
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Until warships get on the scene
And the IS stop using Nukes like candy on the Clans!
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It may also support the CC strike on the FC.
Except that in any real setting the CC no longer exist!
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the FC could be hurting badly, they couldn't more forces to counter them.
Can someone explain that if the fictional CC invaded the FS side of the FC how vast is their military industrial complexes?
With the FS still operational the fictional CC are going to get decimated.
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I don't see them being anything of importance if they split.
Jihad – WoB Forces on the hidden worlds?
I do see a twenty-one-year buildup of insane military superpower that rips apart the Clan’s Inner Sphere.
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they will also be rushing to deal with the Clans
Problem – the clans do not deal with IS surrat governments. Just hurry up and die would be the response.
And yes the WoB insanity will be part of an IS future.
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The parts of ComStar in the CC will likely end up working for the Maskirovka.
Sorry but an ultra police state does not work well with others.
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They can have the honour code, but not to the point of asinine insanity.
Thankyou.
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So that would be one of the first things they would be working on.
In secret yes they would! Provides an excellent invasion deterrent if they finally get caught meddling with the IS …
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So things are going to be slanted or "edited" a bit.
A bit!
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Would the numbers be enough to have huge fleets?
In TPTB universe – not a hope.
In a universe built in reality – not a problem. (Liberty ships WW2)
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SDS system
So how does a SDS system work in an era of circles of equals – something like robot wars – two geeks with AIs battling it out with their SDS systems in deep space – where is the hour in this?
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I would think being burned a couple of times would make the IS very leery of even trying an attack or raid on a world held for a while by the clans.
You do realise we are back to using nukes as a first strike weapon to take out the SDS platforms prior to invasion …
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The risk of the clans targeting the jumpships is very dangerous to the IS.
Let me guess TPTB have decreed that the IS are not allowed to target Clan Jumpships whist at the same time Clans are allowed to target IS Jumpships?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/19/22 10:44 PM
70.118.172.64
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I am sure the Clan Homeworlds would have the SDS tech in place or something similar or better by this point. Aerospace-wise, the Clans have a more significant force, but keep in mind that they are still a ground-based force. Things folks forget, fighters and warships are grand weapons and tools, but they don't do any good if you can't control the planets they orbit or land on. So mechs, infantry, vehicles, etc...will still be the primary forces of war. And as much as it upsets the flyboys, aerospace assets are nothing more than combat support platforms. They are one part of the machine that wins wars.
ECM should be standard in Clan mechs. It should be part of the standard setup. Their tech should have made things like the Guardian and Beagle Systems standard equipment packages on the mechs, etc...
I said most of the books, the first time the black boxes come up are in the novels, and then the 20-year Update, which is from a Dragoons WolfNet report.
The Clans would target jumpships, not to destroy but to capture. That way, they get more ships for their use without bringing in more from the homeworlds. All the while denying the enemy of the same vessel.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/20/22 09:19 AM
1.147.88.67
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I am sure the Clan Home worlds would have the SDS tech in place or something similar or better by this point.
Problem – An SDS system is used as defensive measure against planetary invasion.
I must therefore ask what are the Clans are so afraid of that they would establish a planetary defence system upon their worlds? For example - wouldn’t the establishment of the SDS be necessitated by the fact the Clans believe that the IS know the “exodus route” to the Kerensky Cluster / Pentagon Worlds.
Also who is going to “fit the bill” (as it were)? For some of these worlds maintain multiple Clans, who each own a certain percentage – and who will have operational control of this system? The Clan with the highest percentage of the ownership – or is it determined by whomever has won the most recent Trail of Possession for the system?
Or is the SDS system only set to defend a single Clans fiefdom as it were – and the remainder of the clans on world will have to create their own SDS system?
Or are these systems only on wholly owned worlds / the Capitol world?
These issues will, therefore, need to be addressed if your going to place an SDS system on many of the Clans worlds.
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Aerospace-wise, the Clans have a more significant force, but keep in mind that they are still a ground-based force.
Rather than developing an SDS system, wouldn’t it be more “Clan like” to develop an aerospace fighter carrier for each Clan that can then be sent to defend a Clan’s multiple holdings – as required – and can then be part of the bidding process to determine forces available?
That is each Clan therefore has a mobile weapons platform – that is cost effective – as well as strategically flexible in offence and defence?
In all reality wouldn’t the Clans consider the SDS a boondoggle and a waste of resources?
Things folks forget, aerospace fighters on a carrier (now hold the high ground) – gaining aerospace fighter superiority can enable the attacking force to inflict massive damages upon ground forces whom no longer have aerospace fighter support.
Consider Nova Cats on Tukayyid and the 417th Division reinforces air assets as the destructive capability of aerospace fighters.
So, ground forces can be strafed and bombed en masse … and can be use also as a primary force of war … thus aerospace pilots can be proud of their ability to inflict such grievous damage that their allied ground forces will be assigned mop-up duties.
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ECM should be standard in Clan mechs
ECMs and Probes should be standard in ALL mechs – IS and Clan.
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Black Boxes
Probably one of the most underdeveloped plot development tools that were never utilized to their fullest.
Again, when can a little reality be added to the story?
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The Clans would target jump-ships, not to destroy but to capture.
Thank you for agreeing with me. As above, “Problem – this is a waste of resources – more efficient to capture and use them for the glory of the Clans.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/20/22 12:12 PM
45.51.181.83
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ECM is a bit of an issue. Yes, it is used to help prevent things like streaks from locking on, but in a society that promotes single 'honorable' combat, it hides units as well. This is where it could be argued either way. I do agree that it should be standard in every mech made after it was reintroduced. 1 to 1.5 tons is a bit much. But then TC's should have existed long before, as not being able to hit a walking house at even 30 meters is a bit much.
Yes, the clans would capture jumpships, but the thought was to prevent them from jumping out. Unless they seen the ship jump in, the risks would suggest neutralizing them quickly. Which brings up a question on clan jumpships. Are they more advanced then IS ones? Beyond Ion-Lithium cores.
The question makes me wonder if they would bother. It is inferior technology and construction in their eyes, even if the clan ships are not more advanced. I guess the waste not want not concept would win out.
One more thing. Those sent to capture it would find the duty disgusting. It isn't like they will find a real fight onboard. Though not being able to use elemental armor might change this concept.
Where it is true that ground forces take and hold land, aerofighters do have an important part of keeping reinforcements from reaching allies coming from other worlds. I know the stigma the clans have against them, as aeropilots are not normally considered real warriors. They generally do poorly in unaugmented combat. This is shown from the lack of them being in major command positions.
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ghostrider
08/21/22 12:00 AM
45.51.181.83
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Been doing a little thinking on the SDS system. A conclusion that came up is the system would have been used in multiple systems around Terra, not just Terra. This may well be part of the reason the SLDF lost so many ships trying to retake Terra.
Not sure how much the HBS game is conical, but part of the SL base you find had the program in it to seize control of ships to turn them into part of the system, causing it to try and ram other ships while over loading the engines to explode upon contact. As I doubt this is close to being canon, it does make me wonder if such a program can and does exist from the old SL.
Given the Bugeye could hack into ships computers, this would be a very nasty weapon to use against enemy ships. I don't see why viruses couldn't be used to, at least temporarily, neutralize ships.
This could be part of the intel the clans or IS could use to get an upper hand in a few battles. Just normally hacking could do this. Maybe have a ship fire upon another friendly ship. This could remove ships from service until a counter is found, or the back door is removed. Even Windows has a remote way of getting into your system, as it never truly shuts off. It is how they 'help' you when you screw something up, thru remote means.
This may well have been put in by clan scientists, as a means to protect themselves from the warriors if they ever decide the scientists need to die.
One possible use for it, is teaching clan pilots how to fight against such a system, as it would be easier to work with students, verses losing a space craft to a mistake. This would only be used for early training, as only real combat is done for graduation. Which might explain why fighter pilots are not that common, on top of just being seen as a poor necessary evil to the ground units.
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Karagin
08/21/22 12:34 AM
70.118.172.64
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I agree the SDS would have been in every system IN the old Terran Hegemony. It makes sense. I would say it would be like an onion, though. The layers of defense get more challenging as you move toward Terra (Sol Systems). Not only the SDS but the entire defense of the Hegemony itself. The SLDF would have known this and been ready with better tactics to avoid going against the bastions and moving on to the weaker links. Amaris only had so many troops, and even with the help of traitors inside Hegemony, they could not cover everything. I am willing to bet many of the Hegemony nobles who quickly joined Amaris's side jumped back to the side of the SLDF the second they saw the writing on the wall change.
The Clans would be well aware of the SDS and expect to run into it the closer they get to Terra. Not finding it on the outer worlds (systems) of what was once the Terran Hegemony would either be a shock or possibly not if the Dragoons had included that in their reports unless they had been told not to mention them. The Bugeyes were not numerous, so they would still be a rare item.
I am not seeing the need for the warriors to be killing the scientist as much as we have seen in the later books, that is poor writing and falling back on bad tropes of sci-fi for lack of having an actual plot.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/21/22 11:06 AM
45.51.181.83
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Doesn't mean the scientists wouldn't have a back up just in case.
With the invasion, do clan scientist start working with IS DNA to add to the clans?
Phelan was of the Ward line, but not of the purified clan DNA. As other warriors prove the nature can be just as good as nurtured DNA. With the Wolves winning, would they finally acknowledge the Dragoons by making the 'Wolf' bloodname as they were promised when they left the clans?
Would the clans take some of the oddball IS tech and make it better? Something like the TSM.
The C3 is something I believe they would either ignore, or try to remove completely. It goes against their codes of battle.
It would be interesting to see how the clans deal with the gangs in the CC, as well as trying to remove the Black Dragons and such. The FWL would really cause issues with the clans, though they might actually appeal to them in a wierd way. Each little entity has their pride in their area, which is much like the clans have in their clan. Not sure if it would go further then just acknowledgement or amusement with it.
I think we touched on it before, but would the IS clans bring their people into the IS, and leave the home worlds for the others?
Would the entire home worlds be abandoned, as the other clans try to gain areas in the IS, as it was the home of the 'blessed' SL? The TH worlds could be seen as being the 'new' home worlds for them. This is an interesting subject. It could very well split the clans like it did in canon. Some would want to be part of the old TH/SL, while others might decide it foolish to head back into the chaos that is the IS. Also, depending on what the agreement was for the invasion, could they even be allowed to do so?
Given the hatred for waste, I don't see the home worlds being left to whomever stays. The idea of 'once mine, always mine' seems to fit the clans. And I doubt the trueborns would leave it for the freeborns.
Yeah, this set seems to be after the conquest of Terra is over with. I think what happens would need to be set up sooner then later. Retcons screw things up.
Having things like shipments from the home worlds coming in, and the IS possibly intercepting them might make for some side stories with this.
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Karagin
08/21/22 01:10 PM
70.118.172.64
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I think we would see the Clans step up how many sibkos they have going at the same to make up for losses. Also, the number of losses will start to change how solahma units are looked at and used.
The Clans would study IS tech; if they can use it they might. C3 is a tricky item, even for the Inner Sphere, because realistically, it should be used by all of the Inner Sphere post-invasion. The Clans should have had something like C3 already, but again they had their Honor Code and such in place, stunting some of their tech growth. One significant change we should have seen from the invasion is that the Clans can learn that honor and technology can go hand and hand.
Yes, the Clans would bring their people forward, not at first but over time. The Bears had that plan from the start, it seems. And the Nova Cats ended up doing the same thing. The Falcons and Wolves slowly did this. The Homeworlds were important, but they were also far away.
Recall the Clans would trade their holdings off for things they know they would need, So they are not abandoning them; they are exchanging said holdings for things like mobile factories and other needed items. Also, remember the Clans follow their leaders with very few questions asked. And if someone can't beat the leader in combat, then the issue or challenge is dropped, and folks follow the orders.
The Clans see the Inner Sphere as the Garden Of Eden, so to speak. They also see it as Ruined Paradise, one they can save. So if it means giving up their holding on the Homeworlds, then so be it. They don't lose their holdings on Strana Mechty, which is more important than the rest, so they still have ties to Homeworld.
Yes, the need to move people would have to start shortly after the first wave hits the Inner Sphere. Otherwise, it will be hard to get in place and have anything fully set up to hold things after Terra falls.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/21/22 08:14 PM
1.147.88.67
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Those sent to capture it would find the duty disgusting.
First either aerospace pilots or warships pin I in place – then a new crew of either merchants / technicians are assigned to he prize ship. The old crew are then sent to a re-education camp via POW / Prison Dropship.
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They generally do poorly in unaugmented combat.
Could this be due to the fact that their genetic legacy makes for them to be smaller etc. than that of their Mech and elemental competitors – thus placing them a severe disadvantage from the get go!
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the system would have been used in multiple systems around Terra
Just as Amaris or WoB implemented?
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the reason the SLDF lost so many ships trying to retake Terra
Retaking Terra from the WoB may provide answers.
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the Bugeye could hack into ships computers
Wouldn’t every ship come with physical countermeasures (analog – switches that require physical control and safety systems built into the ship?) for just these issues? – plus technicians can be trained in anti-electronics warfare to detect malicious intrusion and kick them out then fight back.
That said – do you really want this included the game?
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This may well have been put in by clan scientists, as a means to protect themselves from the warriors
Don’t you mean technicians who make all the warrior’s vehicles?
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teaching clan pilots how to fight against such a system
So how are you going to fly your aerospace fighter and at the same time have the mental capability to understand attack / counter-measure electronics on a screen – sorry but we are now looking at a two-seater – front pilot rear technician with advanced electronics suite i.e their complex sensor, communications, weapon systems the more sophisticated flight controls - and thus reducing the pilots workload - and in the future controlling the fighter’s drones that could be accompanying the fighter on its mission.
Thus one can concentrate on the flying the other on the electronics / drones.
To put this into the American language – pilots will no longer be a duellist – they will be more a quarterback with the drones taking on the risk of combat!
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The Clans would be well aware of the SDS and expect to run into it the closer they get to Terra.
No, not really – remember they are incredibly blinkered in many things.
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the Dragoons had included that in their reports
The last report was 3019/20 – so no SDS report.
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I am not seeing the need for the warriors to be killing the scientist
And the desire to be FREE? – liberty, fraternity, equality!
The Trueborn have been under the yoke of their warrior masters for too long – with the war commencing in the IS they (civilians) now know the truth as to the SL and the perversion the warrior caste has forced upon them – time to rise up, and take back that which was lost, death to the false Kerensky prophets! To the barricades and civil war!
So the warriors within the IS can say goodbye to their logistics …
Or is this an alien concept that is best forgotten?
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With the Wolves winning, would they finally acknowledge the Dragoons by making the 'Wolf' bloodname as they were promised when they left the clans?
Really? The true genetic line of the Wolf Trueborn are making advancements within the IS – the Freeborn scum of the Dragoons have gone rogue – any promise made to a bunch of brigands is now null and void – These brigands who have refused to answer their betters, are now bandit caste and will be shot on sight!
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Would the clans take some of the oddball IS tech and make it better?
This would be seen as being repulsive. So no not ever – why would they adopt barbarian technology?
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It would be interesting to see how the clans deal with the gangs in the CC … BlackDragons
Problem – the CC should no longer exist.
Second – the Clans do have any security force in numbers to enforce their edicts – so unless they start by using orbital bombardments doubt anyone will listen to them to begin with.
As for the BlackDragons – they are a partisan group in the shadows – if the Clans assume control they will become the main partisan group fighting for the liberation of the Draconis Combine – many will flock to them to fight back, to regain their historical way of life!
Sorry in both cases war via partisan cell units.
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would the IS clans bring their people into the IS
How? … no, really how? … Can the Clans make ships in vast numbers to transport the vast number of Clan Civilians – and even if they did what is the point? As there are a vast number of worlds within the IS that have a higher population then individual clans themselves … they just do not have the population to take control of the IS … why is this so difficult to understand?
If they came to the IS then Clan way of life will be destroyed by IS way of life!
The clans picked a fight with a tiger and they should be just trying to hang on to the tail … the IS has too vast an industrial might that was never used in the canon story, and that should have … what we are looking at is Japan / America all over again during ww2 – Aircraft Carriers – in the same time Japan could make 7 America was making over 90 …
Sorry but the industrial might of the Clans Vs the IS as well as the Sibko issues – the clans may have the best warriors / machines – but over time they will be destroyed by shear IS numbers – attrition warfare as seen on Tukayyid, but on a much larger scale!
Realism in the game please!
In all reality I cannot even see how the Clans are keeping their empires together post Tukayyid – they do not have the people to keep the IS civilians in line – massive partisan war on all worlds …
In the Kerensky Cluster etc their society is safe (for a time … as the seeds of rebellion have been sown). In the IS their civilians will pick up the bad habits of the IS civilians.
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The idea of 'once mine, always mine' seems to fit the clans.
Yes, however what you cannot protect is mine is also a tenant of Clan philosophy – so how are you going to maintain two armies one in the IS and the other in Clan space – good luck in pulling that off without an edict stating that all trails of possession for Clan worlds / property is now illegal – all trials of possession for property must be within the IS.
Thus if their army is away how are they going to stop the freeborns from taking over – Clan Diamond Shark now back to Sea Fox with trade fleets than warriors.
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Having things like shipments from the home worlds coming in, and the IS possibly intercepting them might make for some side stories with this.
Now you agree!
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I think we would see the Clans step up how many sibkos they have going at the same to make up for losses.
Problem – this will take a minimum of 18 years before you will see any results and who is going to let the Clans have that breathing room – ow yes TPTB would do this – they would just let the Clans off the hook and not allow he IS to attack ….
Realism please!
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Also, the number of losses will start to change how solahma units are looked at and used.
Sorry but no, the number of losses will start to change how “FRONT LINE FORCES” units are looked at and used – more Freeborn will have to be drafted in to fill the losses of the Trueborn.
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The Clans would study IS tech
Study barbarian tech … no way …
C3 system … and give up fighting on your own as a duellist? … never going to happen.
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Yes, the Clans would bring their people forward, not at first but over time.
Without a vast number of fleets this will take decades .. even a century to complete – so unless you want o set up pure Clan worlds there is going to be a cultural issue – and as the Clans are in the minority don’t expect the clan civilian culture to survive very long.
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exchanging said holdings for things like mobile factories
And who is going to transport it to the IS and who is going to operate them in the IS?
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The Clans see the Inner Sphere as the Garden Of Eden, so to speak.
Really? Just remember the serpent is there and what happened to Adam and Eve – kicked out! So don’t expect the Clans to find their salvation there any time soon – they have committed too many sins for them to be allowed to find happiness within the IS.
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Terra
Remove all the IS Terrans from the planet – then allow only those from Clan space to live on the world – Racial DNA Purity 1 Barbarian IS DNA 0.
If you want to bring Clanners into the IS.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/21/22 09:48 PM
45.51.181.83
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Sibcos are time consuming. Even with trials of position happening around 15-16 or so, does create a time lag. I was talking about them increasing the sibkos even before the Outbound Light made it to the clan home worlds. Most had to know it was only a matter of time before the vastly outnumbered wardens could not hold back the crusaders in the invasion.
As stated before, the wolves could have covered moving more replacements forward without the other clans knowing it, by adding in 'extra' guards on their ships. This would allow reinforcements to constantly come in, without needing to have them wait a few months for the ships to reach the IS.
As they would not be active until they are put into unis that were bid in, they could have more then a few warriors waiting around until they were needed. This may well be part of why the other clans had to wait to repair. A trinary with only 9 warriors might be held back until they got the 6 warriors to bring it up to full health. The Dragoons could already have them ready to go, with the main slow down being working machines. And given the push from the warriors, they may well demand to take out machines that weren't fully fixed.
Canon novels had suggested a few of the Wolves refused to have some minor damage fixed before going on, such as Ranna having some armor flaked off by newly released warriors in an FRR assault.
I could also see a few disassembled mechs being shipped in those supply runs as well. They could be reassembled when needed, which would be keeping with the agreement, as they could not be used until reassembled. This would mean they would have replacements there, and not wait until they get sent from the home worlds. This could well be what they had in some of the advanced depots they put up. It may well be why the other clans had issues, suggesting it was extremely dangerous to have those depots, as the IS could find them. The story didn't say one way or another.
Just a thought, but the idea of cost preventing the IS from making clan tech leaves out a few things. The IS did not research the TC and a few other things, so it had to be retro engineered from clan tech. Yet this wasn't so expensive to do. Even omni technology wasn't a problem.
Thinking of clans taking damaged IS tech, I would think the techs could pry out the command codes and encryptions to allow them to tap into IS transmissions to counter moves and set up for the type of fights the clans wanted. Not so much ambush them, but just trap them into areas. For some, this may include some commanders using the dezgra tactics to actually ambush the IS, which in turns causes those units to become dezgra as well. This could be another factor is slowing down the flankers as well. Dealing with using dishonorable tactics.
One thought that came up after hitting continue, this may well be why the scientists had made the extra warriors the Falcons had used in the canon story. They may well have been told by a few khans to have them ready.
Edited by ghostrider (08/21/22 09:50 PM)
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Karagin
08/21/22 10:23 PM
70.118.172.64
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I agree that the Khans would have had plans in place with the scientists to have more ways to get warriors when they needed them, and since they could still do the sibko method, things could be sped up, like using conditioning training and other such methods. Lots of opitions. It won't happen overnight and not in 20 years either, so sorry, the WoB BS is out the window again.
Again keeping things within reason, I would say that some Clans are using freebirth sikbos and saying that they are trueborns and the only ones who know the truth are the scientists and the Khans. That would allow for more numbers and keep things less of an issue for a while.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 01:19 AM
45.51.181.83
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Well we do know the Wolves used large amounts of freeborn warriors, as they provided over 5 regiments of them to the Dragoon mission. This includes having vehicle drivers, which worked well together, unlike most trueborns, as well as stealth people, the 7th Kommandos. Interesting thing is some of the vehicles they had were IS designs after the SLDF left, so either that was an oooops, or they had other means to gain access to them.
As it is doubtful they are clan built, it would mean missions before the Dragoons got sent. The Behemoth, Demolisher, Schrek and Hunter tanks were made after the SLDF left, and they seemed to arrive with those vehicles. I want to say a few mechs were in the same boat, but don't remember which ones.
The Falcons did use some as well, given the Jade Phoenix saga. Well mech warriors, not vehicle units.
Unless they retconned it, I don't think Hell's Horses provided any tank crews.
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Requiem
08/22/22 01:26 AM
1.147.88.67
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I was talking about them increasing the sibkos even before the Outbound Light made it to the clan home worlds.
Problem – what is the justification for this radical departure to Clan Norms?
As we are now delving into the what if / Alt Universe ….
Sorry but if you want to increase the armies of the invading Clans to make it a little more realistic – then Half the number of active Clans and combine their two TO&Es together – thus what we have is ten clans in all – 4 allowed to invade 1 in reserve and 5 at home for example. This should provide each invading Clan with the resources they need to actually reach Terra (mathematically speaking) to become the il-Clan and an argument can be made that perhaps their new and improved sibko numbers for replacement personnel might be adequate if you also provide Hatchetman’s escape pod head as standard for Clan mechs and fighters – thus limiting casualties on the battlefield / depletion report (except for elementals) as infantry being infantry they will always take the brunt of it – thus you can say they are always made in vast numbers as a lie to cover up the losses as it were.
Then you will need to add in a technical security force to keep all the inner spere populations under control – minimum security force complement that can control vast number of individuals ….
May I suggest some type of hover drone police force with AI capabilities and a very lethal means of keeping the population under control.
The only other way is via Exo-Force – all individuals come out of the iron womb as adult pre-programed warriors – thus the Clans can make warriors in any quantity they need – whist the freeborn are there as their menial slave caste …
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Most had to know it was only a matter of time before the vastly outnumbered wardens could not hold back the crusaders in the invasion.
Ha? … so everyone knew that there would be a civil war between the wardens and the crusaders over ideology?
Sorry but if this was the case wouldn’t they have settled this ideological dispute prior to the invasion through multiple Trials of … ?
Thus if either the wardens or the crusaders won – then their ideology would dominate in how to treat the entire IS they capture – their ideology would dominate all the Clans …
If the wardens won – they would try to re-educate them;
If the crusaders won – they become slaves to be beaten into submission until they know their place.
Or should this be …
“Most had to know it was only a matter of time before the vastly outnumbered Clans could hold back the Inner Sphere in the invasion …”
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the wolves could have covered moving more replacements forward without the other clans knowing it, by adding in 'extra' guards on their ships. This would allow reinforcements to constantly come in, without needing to have them wait a few months for the ships to reach the IS.
Problem – to achieve this …
First – the Wolves must have more jumpships than any other (transport to and from clan space to IS at an increased rate);
Second – they would require an increased sibko / Freeborn warrior intake; and
Lastly - The only other way of getting more reinforcement forward is depleting garrisons within the rear – making their rear volatile for invasion.
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Canon novels had suggested a few of the Wolves refused to have some minor damage fixed before going on
This only occurs within a single battle that is moving at a very rapid rate.
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could also see a few disassembled mechs being shipped in those supply runs as well. They could be reassembled when needed
As there isn’t much to do on a long voyage maybe the tech team could actually put it back together as they progress along the voyage …
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the idea of cost preventing the IS from making clan tech leaves out a few things.
Leaves out a great deal!
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Even omni technology wasn't a problem.
Where are all the FC Omni’s?
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allow them to tap into IS transmissions
Encryption – talking in code – multiple channels
The IS have more fun with this – Snords has an individual who proselytises a sermon to Rhonda playing Elvis … so how would the clans lie this?
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They may well have been told by a few khans to have them ready.
First you have to ask what the Clan was up to 18 years prior to these extra warriors being on the field …
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some Clans are using freebirth sikbos and saying that they are trueborns
Really? What is going to happen when the clan who initiated this gets caught – not only from those external – but also from those internal …
*** Spoiler Alert ***
Just remember what the bears did to their children when they found out a scientist spliced their DNA with wolverine …. They took them all out into a field and gave them all a pistol, then told them all about their DNA – they all then took out their gun and shot themselves in the head.
The Khan was very pleased. (if you are wondering Betrayal of Ideals - Pardoe)
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Freeborn – Wolves
Consider the wolf touman https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clan_Wolf_Touman
And yes we all know there are vast differences between the Dragoons and the Clan itself.
As for the original wolfs Dragoons Freeborn complement – my guess is there were compiled from all the Clans to form the entire 5 regiments … as no single clan has ever been seen to have this many in their individual toumans.
That said all clans provided a little for the total complement ...
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/22/22 12:07 PM
70.118.172.64
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The stuff the Dragoons arrived with was a mixed bag. It was older tech stuff for sure, but they did have new stuff mixed in. Things like Imps, Annihilators, Shoguns, etc...all raised concerns. Then having vehicles and mechs that worked looked almost brand new and well cared for, yeah, that was an issue. Plus, the skill level of the Dragoons put them above even elite House units.
The Dragoons were something that had a fantastic idea and purpose and then got monkeyed with a bit too much post-Invasion. The whole reset idea that was the Jihad was the worst thing done to the Battletech gaming system both from a storytelling point and a financial point.
Too many retcons and extra silly points were thrown in because specific new staff felt their version of things lined up with what the rest of the fans wanted when that wasn't the case. We all know what happens because of that, and we can also see it happening again.
Moving back to this topic, things will already begin to change once the Clans start to see that the Inner Sphere is not the cakewalk they thought it would be as far as military operations go. They will need to fill their ranks. They will have to use freeborn troops more. They will have to adjust their built-in cuts-offs of age being a limitation on things. Some Clans will not do this fast enough, others will adjust and adapt over time a bit faster, and some will already have plans because they read the reports from the Dragoons and others and did the simple math. The math would have shown them that their Clan and the rest didn't have the numbers to beat the Inner Sphere military.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 02:18 PM
45.51.181.83
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The reason for the vehicle statement was those vehicles listed were not built before the SLDF left the IS. They were designed and built afterwards. 2800 and beyond time period. So there is no way the clans should have had any of them without someone getting access to them before the Dragoons got to the IS.
The original concept of just strike towards Terra, and leave it at that may have worked, if the IS was going to just roll over and play dead once it was taken. Those that actually took the Dragoons reports to heart would have seen that the IS citizens were not the sheep that the clan citizens were. They would also have known the houses were not attached to Terra like the other clans thought they were.
With this, I could see a large amount of 'failed' warriors being given a second chance to to a trial of position for solemha and second line units. Even if they were just going to be infantry. The Wolves would have seen that no matter how little they changed the lives of the IS areas they conquered, they would not be able to maintain peace. Now this is BEFORE they contacted Comstar and found they would administer worlds for them while they were in the periphery. This could well have been seen by other clans and they realized the same thing, and started in a much smaller batch. This would be more of the warden clans with some of the less strict crusaders testing it out. The Falcons had done part of this with Aidan and a few others.
Also, there were no Von Luckners and older tanks that were discontinued during the succession wars.
Another question comes up with the SDS. Why didn't Comstars warships have anything like that? Even if it was just an anti-fighter set up? I guess the retcon just had it fade away until it was needed to create another bs scenario.
It might be an interesting twist to have the clans made the AP infantry weapons. They did have to deal with elementals in attacks all the time, and to avoid losing face and territory, at least one of the clans would have come up with the concept and used it to try and hold back those clans that has superior numbers on them at all times. Maybe the Hell's Horses might have used it with their vehicles.
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Karagin
08/22/22 03:19 PM
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I would say that some of those vehicles the Dragoos would have bought once they arrived or right before, Jamie might have sent in some scouts and such, bought some stuff, and began setting up their contacts. That would be a better retcon than anything else.
ComStar and warships, they would have a few. This becomes their need of them. They are costly, and keeping a crew trained means moving them around. Someone will notice them. So after a few decades, their costs become more of an issue, so they are mothballed. Then, when needed, it will take time to bring them up to practical operational use, and then the crews' training, where will that come from? Oh yeah, a manual that last was updated when the SLDF left, and even then, it was being written as things were happening. The cost will be an issue on how many they can man and field. That will change over time, but it won't be an overnight massive fleet racing off to stop the Clans again. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Anti-infantry weapons make sense. The Clans would have them for dealing with Battlearmor. And for unarmored infantry as well. I could see one Clan using them more than another. That would be true of other weapons; each Clan should favor something more than the others.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 06:52 PM
45.51.181.83
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The biggest problem with buying them before entering the IS or the FS service. Where did they get the money? It isn't like clan credit was something. But I can agree that some were probably bought since they entered.
The canon story says Comstar kept warships going for a while after the first war. I know they say when they were mothballed because of the expense. So that looks to remain.
The question is when do they start making more? And how are they going to fund them?
The large arrow the clans have pointing towards Terra says it all. Who is going to sell stuff to Comstar to make the fleet larger then what they had stashed?
Most would figure Comstar's money would be worthless, once the clans get there.
I can as a huge amount of blackmail and backroom deals happening here.
Not sure, but I would think Comstar would rather blow up their ships before letting the clans have them, so that will cut into their numbers, but it should prevent the instant increase in clan warships.
And I doubt that Comstar would be worried about costs after a certain point. It isn't like they would be around to have to pay up. But I do agree with not having even dozens of new warships showing up. Depending on timing, maybe 10 or so, given how long it actually takes to build them, verses how quickly the clans advance after Terra is the known target.
What? Some clans prefer certain units over others? 
The Timber and Dire Wolf being the Wolves, while the Summoner (Thor) and Hellbringer (Loki) being something the Falcons like?
Kind of funny that those two mechs are from Norse mythos. I wonder if that was an inside joke when they came up with the story line.
And yet the LC was slanted towards German tastes.
I haven't seen much beyond mech types that the clans deal with specific tastes in weapons.
Is there going to be anyone special in the DC side of the fight?
We know Victor and Kai are in the FC, but not sure if Hohiro is going to be able to do as much. Maybe add in a few like Shin, Theodores 'body guard' could help. Or do we just focus on the FC and possible FRR?
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Karagin
08/22/22 07:34 PM
70.118.172.64
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Buying could be done via precious stones, gold, or rare minerals, or they could have traded for them. Or they rented them for use and then returned them once a contract was signed. That would not be the first time that has been done.
It's never said when they started making more, not that I can find right off--hand of scanning the wiki. My best guess would be they might have made one or two every other year or so. That would keep things working, but again it runs us right back to my point that things inside the Sol system were not as "destroyed" as ComStar claimed. We know the Titan Yards were still there. Who's to say there weren't other yards? We only have the ComStar reports claiming the Sol System was played out of resources after all. And we know how well they are at lying.
Even ComStar has to worry about the cost. Cost is still going to be a factor even for them. The thinking that cost was no issue is the same BS logic that got us the Word of Blake 21 year jump from fanatical chanting cult to the Next Amaris (TM) to ravage the Inner Sphere. Cost is going to be an issue.
Yes, weapon types, mechs, etc...would be something each Clan would favor over another. So it would seem that the PTB lost this part or dropped it somewhere along the way.
Combine side, I have some ideas, Let me double check a few worlds and such.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/22/22 09:17 PM
45.51.181.83
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Given the wiki has Comstar warships parked in 2 different systems, I would say you are correct in there being other shipyards still around.
And with this, it does not say that Comstar didn't fix the Titan shipyards. Though I would bet they were moved to another location, that the IS didn't know about in the Sol system. I could see a few ships using telescopes to check up on the yards in that location.
Ok, I mis spoke. Costs will be an issue, but not one they will be strict about. It looks to come down to fight at all costs or be removed from power. Given they don't have any sort of bank accounts that we know of, they could well have so much in the way of funds, they don't know what to do with them. Covering the costs of the warships was part of mothballing them, but what did they do with the excess? What sort of deals did they make with any of the realms, including the periphery? We know they were digging up SL sites once they found them, but if the video games have any connection with the board game, I can see Comstar stealing digs when no one is looking. Pass off the attacks as pirate strikes, or just a misjump. It would be difficult to suggest otherwise.
The story suggests Comstar was not as rich as you would think, but I find that unlikely. They had their hands in every transaction that required someone pass the money along. So basically, any above the table trades, or purchases would go thru them. Such as jumpships being sold or ordered by other nations. The Monolith can not be just stolen for the DC to have about half of those in operation during the 3025 era.
I would also imagine they are the brokers in trades done inside each realm as well. Fusion engine orders Defiance made had large amounts of money being moved, and I doubt they would risk a dropship to move it.
This is not saying they don't have a lot of overhead. I just don't see them playing nice with everyone.
Except for suspense purposes, we know Vlad was not one for using Gauss rifles a lot. The fight with Phelan had the alpha strike turn into a delayed fire for them. But I can imagine the pilots of certain mechs would prefer something like missiles over lasers because of their size. We know the Puma and Warhawks main configuration is ppc heavy. But there is reasons for the other configurations, and it isn't just for show.
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Requiem
08/22/22 11:55 PM
1.147.88.67
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things will already begin to change once the Clans start to see that the Inner Sphere is not the cakewalk, they thought it would be as far as military operations go
Problem – TPTB transformed the entire invasion into a cakewalk – it is the ineptest war ever devised, devoid of any reality whatsoever.
There are just way too many issues that were never addressed within the war – on both sides – that should have been there.
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the vehicle statement was those vehicles listed were not built before the SLDF left the IS.
Vehicles built in Clan Space and provided to the Wolfs Dragoons Reconnaissance Mission.
Remember this is not the first reconnaissance mission – prior mission(s) were sent to Deep Periphery – in which they became aware of the Succession Wars – and how they were being conducted, nukes, Mechs, Vehicles, Fighters, Infantry etc
Thus the Clans need to create a military force that can fit into the IS at that time – i.e. camouflage
Hence the vehicles, infantry, as well as older Mech designs …
Problems arise when you factor in the quality of the Mechs and the professionalism of their Unit as a whole and as individuals – far beyond what is normal – then they have a ship that makes Mechs WT_?
This alone should have had red bells ringing.
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the IS was going to just roll over and play dead once it was taken
This is why the Clans are so stupid – they believe everyone should just roll over and adopt their way of life and their rules of war … they desire affirmation that they are correct in all things.
Their entire society is not geared to understand the IS state of mind as to virtually everything!
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I could see a large amount of 'failed' warriors being given a second chance to to a trial of position for solemha and second line units.
Two schools of thought on this …
1. Aidan Pryde – second chance and his winning a Bloodname.
2. Clan Smoke Jaguar – final days on Huntress, those who did not pass their trial of position offered to join the fight and were refused.
So each Clan has their own idea on this point and it can change with the changing of each Khan (or needs must as the devil drives)?
So in a time when more warriors are needed due to the sibko system is not producing enough warriors, such as the IS Invasion, then some Khans may become relaxed about the idea and allow a second chance just because they need more warriors – and trial of reaving / trial of absorption is considered too risky.
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Why didn't Comstars warships have anything like that?
First they need a hidden shipyard, then they need hidden scientists who have been trained to design new warships, then they need hidden manufacturing facilities and people to make it – then they need a hidden naval academy to train the crew …
Can you see a Telecom company going to all this difficulty when they have old models mothballed … which will be more than adequate as our Blessed Blake has promised that the IS will obliterate itself in a fire of its own making – and once this has occurred our blessed order can then ride out like the Knights of old to restore order and educate the masses about our blessed Blakean Theocracy.
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It might be an interesting twist to have the clans made the AP infantry weapons.
What is the aim of circles of equals – fight with minimum damage – reduce casualties – AP will just increase casualties – currently they can wrestle each other off the Mech whist cutting into it - also don’t the elementals have Hv. MG / Sm. Laser / SRM / Flamer, what are these if not AP infantry?
So are you looking at something larger that can take out an elemental (Battle armour) with say one shot one kill by a fellow Battle Armour – some kind of Micro. Gauss or PPC?
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That will change over time, but it won't be an overnight massive fleet racing off to stop the Clans again. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
Depends on when warships begin being constructed
How many construction yards there are
Then number of construction personnel
The number and types of ships that can be produced and how long it takes …
Just remember ww2 Japan / America – time it takes for Japan to make 7 Carriers USA can make over 90 …
But we don’t have to worry about that as TPTB will never provide this info as the Clans would loose all to quickly …
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Where did they get the money?
And no one is using gold in the manufacturing of electronics for example?
Or no one is mining and stumbles over gold – thus they could have who knows how many gold bricks?
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The question is when do they start making more? And how are they going to fund them?
Day one they know of the existence of the Clans and They are an interstellar Telecom Co – it would be a given they have been ripping off their customers for how long? Thus their bank account would be incredibly vast – so money is really not an issue.
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Who is going to sell stuff to Comstar to make the fleet larger then what they had stashed?
No one – all manufacturing would be in house.
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Most would figure Comstar's money would be worthless, once the clans get there.
90-80% or their HPGs are still operational and in ComStar Hands – thus their currency would drop 10-20% in value but it is still a viable currency.
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I can as a huge amount of blackmail and backroom deals happening here.
What for?
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Comstar would rather blow up their ships before letting the clans have them
No – think Germany end of WW2 – scorched earth policy to destroy all military industrial facilities / ship yards etc ….
Ships will be required to reform the ComGuard Somewhere so that they can initiate an attack to recapture Terra from the Clans …
Remember ComStar is only in exile at the moment – they are Not destroyed outright!
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But I do agree with not having even dozens of new warships showing up.
Shipyards around hidden worlds and also within the FWL? So yes dozens of new shipyards can still show up.
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And yet the LC was slanted towards German tastes.
And yet the concept of Archon is Greek.
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Is there going to be anyone special in the DC side of the fight?
If this was a real what if discussion – I would suggest Omika Kurita – just remember there are female samurai – try googling them.
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Cost is going to be an issue.
If comstar can shift its bank off Terra – then no cost is not going to be an issue – everyone in the IS is their customer – They are a Monopoly – their wealth would be beyond the dreams of avarice.
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Yes, weapon types, mechs, etc...would be something each Clan would favor over another. So it would seem that the PTB lost this part or dropped it somewhere along the way.
Yes this is a major flaw in the game – Each House should have 2 /3 types in each class that they favour above all others.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/24/22 11:53 AM
45.51.181.83
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Would it be a good idea to have the clans lose a few battles?
Same with having the IS win a few worlds back?
This would help explain why the flankers were having problems advancing toward Terra.
This could be applied to the Wolves as well, so there isn't the air of deityhood for them.
Maybe even (gasp) the DC and FC doing a pincer movement on the Wolves, only to have to give it up as the flankers start pressing forward to engage the FC/DC?
This could also include some Comstar forces, that are on some sort of mission, such as rescuing one of the first circuit caught in transport, such as from the FRR. Might be the first Comstar/Clan engagement with warships. It could well be long before, or shortly before they reach Terra. One point may well be right after the FRR is completely conquered.
I do believe that Hanse and Theodore/Takashi would have a face to face meeting about dealing with the clans, and I don't mean having the Dragoon meeting. I can see it being important, so they could try and resist more efficiently. Not sure if the DC would push to include the FWL or CC in this. Though having the CC say they would help, only to turn and attack the FC could be how that situation develops. It would be keeping with their history. It may well be how they get forces in position to do so.
It might be that it is held on Terra just as the FRR falls completely.
The FWL would probably sit it out, but agree to producing the refit kits. No, Joshua is NOT involved in this, unless you think it wise to have Comstar be shown as uncaring for the others, since they would not bother with trying to save him in front of those, if the meeting is held on Terra.
It may also be that this meeting is when Comstar informs the IS of their warships and that the Titan yards are starting to make more.
This might not be a good idea, as it would push the houses to make their own warship designs, as they know it is now possible.
Edited by ghostrider (08/24/22 11:54 AM)
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Requiem
08/24/22 04:13 PM
1.147.88.67
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Would it be a good idea to have the clans lose a few battles?
Same with having the IS win a few worlds back?
Do you wish to add a little realism to the game or stay with canon?
Explanation –
With realism – IS are allowed R&D to reverse engineer all clan omni tech and weapons (after a period of time, the IS can be said to gain parity with Clans)
Couple this with an Academy System / conscription and a total war output logistics / economy scenario …
New tactics are developed – attrition warfare as per Tukayyid – and wolf packs in the deep periphery – psyops against all freeborn (inc. PGC) – massive partisan activity in Clans rear (unable to control the masses as they do not have the security personnel)
So how long until the clans fall from grace?
With Canon – we ignore the IS’s ability to R&D to reverse engineer
They are never allowed to rebuild damaged units or create new units
Anything other than Mech on Mech fighting is forbidden
Clans do not receive personnel loss – only IS does – as sibkos are able to provide all the replacement personnel required.
IS is forbidden to take advantage of any Clan issues – post Tukayyid – inter Clan civil war – one clan reaving another for personnel – attacking their logistics fleet – using psyops to convert their freeborn to IS (as they are treated so well by their Trueborn overlords) etc.
Logistics and ecnomid development never improve – static constant
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This would help explain why the flankers were having problems advancing toward Terra.
This could be applied to the Wolves as well, so there isn't the air of deity hood for them.
Again, this depends on previous answer – realism or canon …
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the DC and FC doing a pincer movement on the Wolves
How long should it have taken – Hanse Davion, Morgan Kell, Morgan Hasek-Davion, Jamie Wolf, Theodore Kurita, or even Grayson Death Carlyle for that matter to come to the same conclusion as Anastasius Focht (Steiner) re Tukayyid?
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This could also include some Comstar forces
Sooner or later ComStar will have to have a Come to Blake moment and realise they cannot assist the Clans – as they are after Terra, and now we (ComStar) have to stop them … so how?
So yes, the ComGuard will have to oppose the Clans.
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I do believe that Hanse and Theodore/Takashi would have a face to face meeting about dealing with the clans, and I don't mean having the Dragoon meeting.
How about the year of peace – this would have been the perfect time to construct a joint defence resolution?
And yes the FWL and ComStar will be required to attend. As for the CC, still believe in writing hem out of the game – so add in St Ives and all periphery states.
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It might be that it is held on Terra just as the FRR falls completely.
The horse has already bolted from the stable to close the door – way too late in he story for a meeting now … these individuals are supposed to be the best and the brightest – thus sooner rather than later would be the policy.
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The FWL would probably sit it out, but agree to producing the refit kits.
If the Clans are so close to Terra – this seems a counter productive move on their part – they will need the other states to defend the FWL – as this invasion occurred with how many Clans – and just how many are at home and could join the invasion when?
This said if the IS couldn’t put a dent in the Clans by Terra – they are not going to stop a complete IS takeover. The IS will become a Clan holding …. And then I burn all my books in complete disgust.
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Joshua … since they would not bother with trying to save him
ComStar didn’t care, Wolfs Dragoons didn’t care, Snord’s Irregulars didn’t care … only the FC attempted the impossible.
Remember Clan medicine can repair lost limbs to battle etc – so how uncaring is the Dragoons and Jamie – are they still carrying a torch for their lost loves at the hands of the FWL?
What is he problem with the Dragoons they have already informed the IS they are Clan at this stage – so why don’t they provide technical / medical assistance?
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It may also be that this meeting is when Comstar informs the IS of their warships and that the Titan yards are starting to make more.
This might not be a good idea, as it would push the houses to make their own warship designs, as they know it is now possible.
Again – realism Vs canon
Realism – some time between 3040 and 3050 IS should have begun warship production
Canon – Late 3050’s and only after WoB has taken Terra and forced the IS to realise that yes they can make their own warships if they just try …. Groan!!!!!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Karagin
08/24/22 09:55 PM
70.118.172.64
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Battles would be won and lost all the time. If it sounds like a steamroller, that wasn't the idea. The fighting would not be a cakewalk for the Clans. The whole misconception that Inner Sphere can't win against the Clans without 4:1 odd is total crap. Before the arms race of the late 90s, and early 00s, my group and others I played BT with would have battles all the time where the forces were equal in numbers and skill sets, and the winner would come down to who used tactics to win.
A lot of issues with how players see the Clans is how they were written in the novels, this juggernaut running over units, wiping out elite Inner Sphere units blah, blah, etc...yet after the first couple of fights, the tide didn't stay that way. Inner Sphere units fought back and started to win. The FedCom wasn't doing as was written, or why didn't Thakrad fall? If the Clans were so damn good, they would have easily pushed through the DC units, taken Luithen, and been on the borders of the FS portion of the FC...
The battles fought would be brutal pitch fights, not Rock'em Sock'em Robots (tm) fights. I am talking about a month or more per battle, not a day's worth of fighting. That is the point the writers and the LD missed at the time. The Inner Sphere House units are fighting for their homes and nation. They know that if they retreat, that could mean the next planet to fall is their own homeworld, so they will fight to the bone and then some.
The Clans would not be getting an easy time; that's why I said at the earliest we wouldn't see the Wolves on or near Terra before 3058 or 3060. That allows for the tide of war to go back and forth. The Clans would know that their efforts to tame the Inner Sphere are not made lightly, that their honor and all that is being upheld, and I can see Ulric using that to keep the Crusaders in check by pointing out that if the Inner Sphere was so barbaric, etc...then why were they still fighting and stopping the vaunted Crusader Clans and their forces.
I am still working on the DC area of interest. I will try and have that up by Sunday.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/24/22 10:24 PM
45.51.181.83
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No rush on it.
The time frame is where TPTB did screw up. More then a few worlds fell within a week or so of the clans landing. Granted, the way they describe the fights, the clans basically hot dropped on every unit on world in one big battle. Granted, I could see the clans faster units being able to keep up with retreating units, but they would not have had an easy time as they would be just as damaged as the retreating forces. The only thing I could see the clans having is in open terrain and the range of their weapons. But we know the IS has pillboxes and bunkers scattered around worlds, so the retreating forces would pass by them, and let them bleed the clans a little more.
Yes, the elementals would cause some havoc, but it isn't like standard infantry wouldn't do the same.
I was talking about a few worlds that would be thorns in the clans pathways. Something like a heavily bunkered world that would require more troops to take, so they were basically bypassed for now. Maybe even one that had some capital naval weapons that would prevent the warships from bombarding it, yet were distracted by the warships to allow a few dropships to make it in far enough to hot drop more units. Shuttles and fighters could be used to get supplies to the clan forces stuck on world until the naval weapons could be neutralized enough to let some dropships land and get them. Maybe even load up on some shuttles to get out.
The main way to deal with this might well be do like Camelot Command and just make it difficult or impossible to keep it supplied by the IS.
I would like to see some remain open so the IS can keep the pressure up on the clans, forcing them to keep front line forces in the area. This would help keep the flankers from being able to concentrate forces elsewhere.
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Requiem
08/25/22 07:16 AM
1.147.88.67
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If it sounds like a steamroller, that wasn't the idea.
Problem – Fact! How many battles did TPTB allow the IS forces to win against the Clans – even in the later stages?
How many perfect times to engage in a counter attack against the Clans were just ignored? E.G. Introduction of PGCs, Hunting Logistics fleets, Extending their Advance Attack Groups too far leaving their rear vulnerable, Post Tukayyid – how many clans were decimated and the IS forces did NOTHING, Post Wolf Vs. Falcon civil war, The reaving of multiple Clans due to the Wolf / Falcon Civil War …
Also, after every battle there is a loss depletion report for Is forces – how many contained a Clan loss depletion report – nearly nil.
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A lot of issues with how players see the Clans is how they were written in the novels, this juggernaut running over units, wiping out elite Inner Sphere units blah, blah
If we use the info from Sarna – Invasion Corridor – Clan __________
We get the following Statistics ….
Ghost Bear 39 IS 0
Jade Falcon 49 IS 1
Nova Cat 9 IS 0.5 (Luthien)
Smoke Jaguar 37 IS 1.5
Steel Viper 3 IS 0
Wolf 86 IS 0
Total Clans 223 IS 3 (not including Tukayyid) – thus Clans 98.67% to IS 1.33%
Really?
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The battles fought would be brutal pitch fights …. I am talking about a month or more per battle
I agree.
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The Clans would not be getting an easy time; that's why I said at the earliest we wouldn't see the Wolves on or near Terra before 3058 or 3060. That allows for the tide of war to go back and forth.
Proposition is sound.
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But we know the IS has pillboxes and bunkers scattered around worlds, so the retreating forces would pass by them, and let them bleed the clans a little more.
How many battles involved pillboxes / bunkers / pre-set kill boxes etc ….. about nil would be the answer.
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elementals would cause some havoc
And doesn’t infantry have Support PPC, SRMs, Flamers etc
Then there is access to Artillery, SRM, LRM strike … access to vehicle support … etc
Then consider the size of an infantry company – all with heavy weapons ….
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I was talking about a few worlds that would be thorns in the Clan’s pathways.
Consider heavily populated worlds should also have vast defensive capabilities that should have chewed most Clan forces to bits.
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The main way to deal with this might well be do like Camelot Command and just make it difficult or impossible to keep it supplied by the IS.
Look I see piggie flying again ….. hidden worlds principle can be applied here to resupply …
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I would like to see some remain open so the IS can keep the pressure up on the clans
Yes I too would rather prefer all battles became a little more realistic.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/22 12:08 PM
45.51.181.83
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Oh look. Another *** You are ignoring this user *** message.
So nice not to have someone asking questions that already have been answered. Things like when does the IS SL kick the clans out, when the entire thread has stated there will not be an IS SL.
Now, back to the what if.
The TPTB suggested that a lot of defenders were caught moving out to protect other areas or meet the clans in specific areas during the first few worlds attacked. Yet with the clans attacking with half the forces, this could not cover all the possible locations they would be at. Given the defenders would be spread out, either the clans dropped with more then half the numbers, or some locations would have but a single mech or star of elementals attack several units.
This spread out nature would be because the defenders would also be local unit, which are normally like the coast guard. They would be scattered around so if an emergency happens, they would have something close, not having to travel around a world to get there.
The week assault would not play out. It is suggested the same units participated in more then one assault on different worlds, which is not possible, due to travel times. Also, a lot of the units were shipped aboard the same jumpship as others. So this needs to be addressed. The clans would have to bring in more jumpships, avoiding those like the Monolith and possibly the Star Lord. Yes, the warships can be used as jumpships, but something tells me this didn't happen.
Which also needs to be addressed is it is implied the clan leaders watched the battles from the bridge of warships, which means the number and timing of attacks in a wave wasn't possible, if they were in the system when the attacks happened.
Another point that needs to be looked at. The story says the defenders asked about their forces, yet there is no mention of aerofighters being used in those attacks. As more then a few worlds would have had some and sent them to deal with the dropping mechs, this situation was never covered in the story.
As much as the clans ignored the IS wasn't some drunken bar full of wannabe warriors, they would have to have some equipment with them to recover damaged units, including dropships. We lightly covered the yardships, but that wasn't much.
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Requiem
08/25/22 07:43 PM
1.147.88.67
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with the clans attacking with half the forces, this could not cover all the possible locations they would be at
The week assault would not play out. It is suggested the same units participated in more then one assault on different worlds, which is not possible, due to travel times.
a lot of the units were shipped aboard the same jump-ship as others
Please provide Unit Designation / Worlds / Info so that we are all on the same page.
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The clans would have to bring in more jump-ships
Consider reading each Clan’s Invasion Corridor. For example ……
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Invasion_corridor_-_Clan_Ghost_Bear
Naval Reserve, as per bid, for the Bears was supplied … including Jump-ships
2 Warships
6 Monoliths
8 Merchants
7 Scouts
6 Invaders
Additional Jump-ships, therefore, can be assumed to be attached to logistics / resupply fleets – not combat units.
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the warships can be used as jumpships, but something tells me this didn't happen.
Every Docking Collar would have had to been used to Transport the Touman
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it is implied the clan leaders watched the battles from the bridge of warships, which means the number and timing of attacks in a wave wasn't possible, if they were in the system when the attacks happened.
Yes senior officers would view the progress of the battle from a warship – view the skill of the ristar engaged in a particularly important battle due to the importance of the world. However, how does this affect the number and timing of attacks? As other ships, and their warrior complement, are sent to other worlds. A warship does not have to be at every world’s invasion.
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The story says the defenders asked about their forces, yet there is no mention of aerofighters being used in those attacks.
Which stories are these?
Errrr … isn’t it the other way around? “The attacking Clan requested from the defenders their forces complement – which they would have expected to include aerospace and conventional fighter forces …?
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they would have to have some equipment with them to recover damaged units
On the Clan home-worlds this was the job of freeborn warriors within their PGCs.
Once a world has been conquered, however, wouldn’t it fall to their freeborn techs to recover and rebuild / scrap mechs as per severity of damage – the same goes with Dropships.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/25/22 11:05 PM
45.51.181.83
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The two people discussing this what if see the same thing when Requiem replies. *** You are ignoring this user ***
I believe that Comstar would start actively resisting the clans at least 6 double jumps out, so 12 normal jumps, maybe sooner. I believe they would see the writing on the wall, and if Walterly thinks she can manipulate them, then the others would remove her. Who does it is the question. Focht seems to be the most likely, but for some reason, at this point, I don't think he would. The first circuit or an assassin in the company should be the one to do so.
Honestly, by this time, the clans would almost know Walterly is going to betray them. She may well have been moving units around without Focht approving them. Probably using ROM to do so.
I would also think that as the clans finish off the FRR, Walterly would activate the warship production yards, thinking she will be able to use the excuse of reinforcing worlds of the houses, by taking them, as the clans and houses fight each other bitterly.
This should result in the clans finally smashing Comstars warships every time they see them, as well as performing a deep raid on the Titan yards in Terra. They would hate having to heavily damage or even destroy those ship yards, but it would be known that if they don't, they will have to break their bids and call in for more ships, and even then, it might not be soon enough. Who knows. Maybe the Ravens could be called in to deal with this. They may know how to disable the yards without having to destroy them. As the Sol system isn't the prize, but Terra is, this may well be a way to sidestep the invasion agreement. I doubt the invasion clans want to risk their few ships they have making this run, so would agree to a side amendment to allow this. Maybe even agreeing to let the Ravens rebuild and use them once Terra is secured.
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