Moloch
03/26/03 02:54 AM
67.224.53.249
|
code:
AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: Oxen Cargo Jumpship
Tech: Inner Sphere / 2655
Vessel Type: JumpShip
Rules: Level 1, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 500,000 tons
Length: 863 meters
Sail Diameter: 1,345 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
12 Large Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Oxen Cargo Ship tips the scales 500,000 tons, the heavest jumpship built
in the Inner Sphere. It was privately ordered and constructed for the
Galactic Parcel service, a subsidiary of ComStar dealing with bulk freight.
Only 3 of its kind were built and only 1 has survived thru 430 years of
operation.
==Capabilities:==
The Oxen was built to carry freight only, unlike the Star Lord and Monolith
jumpships with their large number of dropships. It has 2 massive cargo bays
seperated into 8 compartments, each capable of holding 1000 tons of goods. A
series of complex elevators and rails can [censored] up to 200 tons of freight at a
time to each of the four Dropship collars. At the fastest pace, the whole
ship can be emptied and reloaded in 6 days.
The ship has a crew of 33 and their quarters are very luxurious, having ample
room for single beds and a bathroom being shared by every 4 crewmen. The Oxen
also has the capacity for 58 passengers: 8 First Class single-occupancy rooms
with fold out beds and private bathrooms; 10 single room/shared facilities;
and 10 4-person shared double-bunk cabins with communal restrooms. There is 2
grav-decks, both which serve meals from small well stocked kitchens.
The Oxen is well protected, but under armored as well. It has 12 large lasers
spread out along the hull, mainly for anti-meteror weapons and are nothing
more then moral support against fighters. 8 space marines/security guards are
on board, for protection of the cargo and passengers.
==Battle History:==
The last surviving Oxen was seen at the Battle of Tukayyid.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Oxen Cargo Jumpship
Mass: 500,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 6,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Standard (Integrity = 9) 475,000.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 6) 97.00
Structural Integrity: 1 3,333.50
Total Heat Sinks: 154 Single .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 434.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 1,250.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Food & Water: (117 days supply) 69.50
Armor Type: Standard (30 total armor pts) 74.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 5
Fore-Left/Right: 5/5
Aft-Left/Right: 5/5
Aft: 5
Cargo:
Bay 1: Small Craft (4) with 2 doors 800.00
Bay 2: Cargo (4) with 12 doors 4,000.00
Bay 3: Cargo (4) with 12 doors 4,000.00
DropShip Capacity: 4 Docking Hardpoints 4,000.00
Grav Deck #1: (95-meter diameter) 50.00
Grav Deck #2: (74-meter diameter) 50.00
Life Boats: 20 (7 tons each) 140.00
Crew and Passengers:
5 Officers (5 minimum) 50.00
26 Crew (26 minimum) 182.00
2 Gunners (2 minimum) 20.00
8 1st Class Passengers 80.00
10 2nd Class Passengers 70.00
40 Steerage Passengers 200.00
8 Marines 40.00
20 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Large Laser Nose 2(16) 2(16) -- -- 16 10.00
2 Large Laser FL/R 2(16) 2(16) -- -- 32 20.00
2 Large Laser AL/R 2(16) 2(16) -- -- 32 20.00
2 Large Laser Aft 2(16) 2(16) -- -- 16 10.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 96 500,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 609,252,125 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,485
Cost per BV: 410,270.79
Weapon Value: 1,894 (Ratio = 1.28)
Damage Factors: SRV = 88; MRV = 69; LRV = 0; ERV = 0
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 30,393
(11,241 Structure, 16,700 Life Support, 2,452 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 33,089 (109% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
Something different for a change from me. A cargo freighter instead of a warship.
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
|
Cray
03/26/03 07:02 AM
65.32.253.120
|
Question: Why the odd-sized gravdecks? You'd want them to be the same size and counter-rotating to cancel each other's gyroscopic forces while the jumpship is under thrust. Also, small gravdecks like that cannot generate much "gravity" (centripetal force) without nauseating the occupants.
Comment: The Oxen basically needs a fifth dropship of Mule size or larger to move its onboard cargo. There's certainly some cost savings to putting cargo on the Oxen instead of a dropship, but it's an awkward way to move cargo.
If you want to take this idea to the proper extreme, you'd build a large (1-2.5 megaton) compact-core jumpship and strip it down to zero hardpoints, no naval weapons, and 2/3 thrust. It should be able to haul about 35-40% of its mass as cargo, and it will be about as expensive as a Mammoth or Behemoth-class dropship. For the price of a handful of Monoliths, you can move far more cargo. Just have the dropships waiting at the destination planet to service the freighter and its sister ships. BIG cost savings.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
03/26/03 04:10 PM
4.35.174.250
|
AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: MegaTon Class Compact-Core Freighter
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 2,500,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:
16 PPC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: MegaTon Class Compact-Core Freighter
Mass: 2,500,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 300,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 47) 1,131,250.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 9) 155.00
Structural Integrity: 6 15,000.00
Total Heat Sinks: 819 Single .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 7,257.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 6,250.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Food & Water: (180 days supply) 1,213.25
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (306 total armor pts) 300.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 56
Fore-Left/Right: 51/51
Aft-Left/Right: 51/51
Aft: 46
Cargo:
Bay 1: Cargo (1) with 10000 doors 1,000,172.00
Bay 2: Small Craft (160) with 8 doors 32,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 4: (90-meter diameter) 200.00
Grav Decks #5 - 8: (80-meter diameter) 200.00
Grav Decks #9 - 12: (90-meter diameter) 200.00
Life Boats: 225 (7 tons each) 1,575.00
Crew and Passengers:
91 Officers (91 minimum) 910.00
455 Crew (454 minimum) 3,185.00
3 Gunners (3 minimum) 21.00
800 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) -- -- 20 14.00
2 PPC FL/R 2(20) 2(20) -- -- 40 28.00
2 PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) -- -- 40 28.00
2 PPC AL/R 2(20) 2(20) -- -- 40 28.00
2 PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) -- -- 20 14.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 160 2,500,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 2,393,306,512 C-Bills
Battle Value: 14,928
Cost per BV: 160,323.32
Weapon Value: 9,312 (Ratio = .62)
Damage Factors: SRV = 147; MRV = 116; LRV = 0; ERV = 0
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 561,627
(71,102 Structure, 480,575 Life Support, 9,950 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 1,214,100 (216% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
Why stop at 1 Megaton, when you could have 1 megaton of CARGO?!
It has no fluff because it really doesn't fit in the Battletech Universe. It's an odditiy caused by FASAnomics.
(that, and the fact that I'm lazy.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Moloch
03/26/03 05:20 PM
67.224.53.129
|
Why the odd-sized gravdecks?
Someone is reading Science Fiction Weekly :P Ok, make both the same size. I just assumed a grave deck spun like a wheel and didn't affect the ship at all.
Comment: The Oxen basically needs a fifth dropship of Mule size or larger to move its onboard cargo. There's certainly some cost savings to putting cargo on the Oxen instead of a dropship, but it's an awkward way to move cargo.
Oxen jumps in-system with 8k tons of cargo and 4 more ships loaded fully, say an additional 8k (16k total). Those ships undock and head planet ward to unload on the ground and reload as well. At the jump point, there is 4 ships that are waiting to exchange their cargo with the jump ships. They pick up and drop off at the same time, then undock when the first 4 ships return. The second 4 ships (which never left the system in the first place) return planent ward and land, unloading their cargo. I think something like 24k tons cargo is shifted around.
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
|
Cray
03/26/03 05:54 PM
65.32.253.120
|
In reply to:
Why stop at 1 Megaton, when you could have 1 megaton of CARGO?!
I usually go for 2.5 megatons, too - you can look up my concepts on rec.games.mecha, if not on CBT.com or here.
I'm a bit jealous - I could never get over 1 megaton of cargo, I always fell a hair short with all the extras I stuffed in.  
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
03/26/03 06:06 PM
65.32.253.120
|
In reply to:
I just assumed a grave deck spun like a wheel and didn't affect the ship at all.
Yup, just like a wheel: a big gyroscope. (The gyroscopic part of my physics classes used a dismounted bicycle wheel for the demos. The dirt bike cleats on that thing could take hair off your arm when it got out of control.)
In reply to:
Oxen jumps in-system with 8k tons of cargo and 4 more ships loaded fully, say an additional 8k (16k total). Those ships undock and head planet ward to unload on the ground and reload as well. At the jump point, there is 4 ships that are waiting to exchange their cargo with the jump ships. They pick up and drop off at the same time, then undock when the first 4 ships return. The second 4 ships (which never left the system in the first place) return planent ward and land, unloading their cargo. I think something like 24k tons cargo is shifted around.
Then a Scout-class jumpship jumps in with a Mammoth and delivers 35 kilotons of cargo in one swoop.
You might look at the common cargo dropship, the Mule. It delivers around 8 kilotons at a time. It's certainly more common than the Mammoth.
The thing about BT worlds is that they have shipping needs like Earth - some planets with billions of people need over half their food to be imported - and I could see a brigade of tanks burning 24 kilotons of fuel in two months. 24 kilotons is nothing compared to interstellar shipping needs, and would be a drop in the hold of a modern 75 kiloton container vessel, nothing at all in comparison to a modern super tanker (the biggest if over 500 kilotons.) Impressively, some planets in BT are used as sources of oil for other planets - I have to wonder how they get the oil around.
Ignore me. I'm just ruminating over BT's...interesting...interstellar shipping situation. Your design certainly fits in fine with the current setting - Buccaneer dropships hauling a kiloton or so of cargo on jumpships that only charge 50000 C-bills a jump.
However, something to ponder: how much would your proposed (above) 8 dropship/1 jumpship set up cost? Compare that number to Bob's cargo ship elsewhere in the thread.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
03/26/03 06:42 PM
4.35.174.250
|
...as a proof that the Jumpship/Dropship paradigm and the AT2 cost table could not coexist in the same universe. Point proven, I think.
I tried a similar concept with a standard-core Jumpship but I've been having trouble with how to get cargo from the jump-point to the planet and back.
I think I've settled on using jump-point stations to hold the cargo to be ferried by large in-system (monitor) freighters.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
03/26/03 07:08 PM
65.32.253.120
|
[edit] Incidentally, I built mine to point out the foolishness of using standard core jumpships; I suppose your reason is to point out the foolishness of compact cores, or pricing et al.
I suppose I'd be happy with a pricing scale that put dropships at 50 to 500 million C-bills, jumpships at 500 million to 5 billlion, and compact cores from 5 billion to 50 billion. What needs to change (IMO) is those horrid cost multipliers for dropships and the lack of relation between jumpship mass and cost. The AT2 writers tried too hard to capture all dropship prices - they should've just waved off very expensive dropships (like the Mammoth and Fortress and whatnot) as unusually priced due to demand and rarity.
In reply to:
I tried a similar concept with a standard-core Jumpship but I've been having trouble with how to get cargo from the jump-point to the planet and back.
It only takes sqrt(10) times (about 3x) as long for a .1G jumpship to make the same journey as a 1G dropship.
In reply to:
I think I've settled on using jump-point stations to hold the cargo to be ferried by large in-system (monitor) freighters.
Pirate points are your friends for fast cargo delivery. Pop in at a planet-moon Lagrange point and the journey for a 1G dropship is measured in hours (11 hours from Earth-Luna L5 point to Earth orbit for a 0.1G jumpship). The visit need only be a week long, long enough to recharge the jump drive. The cargo can certainly be unloaded in less than a week. Use dropships operating from the planet to the pirate point, or just to orbit if the jumpships are kind enough to approach low orbit. This way you can use one set of dropships for many more jumpships - the dropships aren't burdened with two-week flights.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (03/26/03 07:13 PM)
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Bob_Richter
03/26/03 08:23 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I suppose your reason is to point out the foolishness of compact cores, or pricing et al. <<<
The foolishness of using dropship collars, actually, given their insane costs.
>>>It only takes sqrt(10) times (about 3x) as long for a .1G jumpship to make the same journey as a 1G dropship. <<<
I've heard this before. So a one-week journey becomes a three-week journey. Eegh. I suppose it would work, but I'd rather just dock to a jumppoint station, unload the cargo, charge the drive and go, and then have a weekly monitor haul it insystem. Of course, that does imply a certain amount of insystem infrastructure, which may not be there on more frontierish worlds.
>>>Pirate points are your friends for fast cargo delivery. <<<
Except, of course, that they're dangerous and unpleasant.
Jumpship captains who aren't keen on risking their lives avoid them, a pattern they can follow no matter how silly the cost tables get.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
03/26/03 08:29 PM
4.35.174.250
|
AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: MiniFreighter
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type: JumpShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 500,000 tons
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament: None
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: MiniFreighter
Mass: 500,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 6,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Standard (Integrity = 9) 475,000.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 6) 97.00
Structural Integrity: 1 3,333.50
Total Heat Sinks: 154 Single .00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 731.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 1,250.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Food & Water: (194 days supply) 30.00
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (278 total armor pts) 278.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 47
Fore-Left/Right: 46/46
Aft-Left/Right: 46/46
Aft: 47
Cargo:
Bay 1: Cargo (1) 12,956.50
Grav Deck #1: (95-meter diameter) 50.00
Life Boats: 6 (7 tons each) 42.00
Crew and Passengers:
5 Officers (5 minimum) 50.00
26 Crew (26 minimum) 182.00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 0 500,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 232,931,330 C-Bills
Battle Value: 5,008
Cost per BV: 46,511.85
Weapon Value: 0 (Ratio = .00)
Damage Factors: SRV = 0; MRV = 0; LRV = 0; ERV = 0
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 23,635
(9,795 Structure, 12,300 Life Support, 1,540 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 68,400 (289% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
It hauls more cargo than a Mule. 
Sure, it's 500,000 tons, but it costs less than:
1) An Avenger-Class Dropship
2) A Dropship-Docking Collar
The Mule actually costs less, until you figure in the Scout (or Merchant for 2 or Invader for 3 etc.) to haul it around.
I don't have it fitted for the small-craft bays I'd need to move the cargo on or off in orbit, the idea was to dock to a station or other (insystem) ship and move it that way.
As you can see, it's not prepared to defend itself against pirates either...
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Moloch
03/27/03 03:13 AM
67.224.53.209
|
In reply to:
Aseries of complex elevators and rails can [censored] up to 200 tons of freight at atime to each of the four Dropship collars.
This sentence should read as:
In reply to:
Aseries of complex elevators and rails can ship up to 200 tons of freight at atime to each of the four Dropship collars.
Typo 
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
|
Cray
03/27/03 08:48 AM
147.160.125.185
|
In reply to:
In reply to:
It only takes sqrt(10) times (about 3x) as long for a .1G jumpship to make the same journey as a 1G dropship.
I've heard this before.
Are you familiar with the equation, distance = (0.5) acceleration (time^2)? Solve for time and you'll where the square/square root relation kicks in on improved acceleration.
In reply to:
In reply to:
Pirate points are your friends for fast cargo delivery.
Except, of course, that they're dangerous and unpleasant.
Jumpship captains who aren't keen on risking their lives avoid them, a pattern they can follow no matter how silly the cost tables get.
Well, now. I've pondered this. As Explorer Corps describes pirate points, they seem to be Lagrange points.
Normal (zenith/nadir) jump points (ZNJP) are moving targets to begin with, but they simplify things. They're simply fixed above/below a star's poles. Even from 30 light-years, it wouldn't take much in the way of 21st century astronomical gear to precisely eyeball the distance to a target star, note the star's motion relative to the one the jumpship is currently at, adjust for time delay of the star's images you're working with (it's light-years away: you're using years-old images), and then jump.
But a pirate point - ah! There's some fun. From a Tau Cetan (New Earth) ZNJP (about 12 LY from Earth), try figuring out where Earth is around Sol. Then try to figure out where the moon is around Earth. A jumpship can certainly see Sol - the human eye could see Sol from New Earth. But Earth itself? And the moon? (You need to know where both are to find the L4/L5 points.) Two small, dim bodies swinging around Sol, being jiggled by tens of kilometers from the tug and pull of Sol and Jupiter?
Yeah, the bodies that make pirate points are hard to spot, making "blind jumps" to pirate points dangerous.
Now, things get easier if you have up to date star system charts/databases. Those can contain up-to-date information on the motion of a star system's secondary bodies. Of course, a jumpship's captain's question must be: "How much have my jumpship's clocks drifted from the ones used to make this database?" In the space of about 1 minute, the Earth-moon L4/L5 points move their own lengths due to Earth's motion around the sun. Yes, precise clocks are critical.
It sounds like I'm just reinforcing your point about the danger of pirate points, doesn't it? Well, hang on. I'm going to disagree (for certain circumstances) next.
I figure pirates visiting a new system to raid for the first time probably use a visit to a ZNJP to map out a system, so they can find pirate points with the above discussed accuracy. They'll be using their own shipboard clocks and own databases.
Now, what about a frequented commercial route between two populous systems, the kinds of places that would use these behemoth compact core transports?
Think of it: they'll have orbital traffic control. Traffic control can keep central clocks for the registered merchants. It can provide up-to-date system databases for the merchants. Any merchant making these pirate point visits will benefit from knowing where the pirate points are (eliminating the biggest danger for pirate point jumps) and will have synchronized clocks (eliminating the other problem). Jumpships that arrive before they leave can serve as data couriers, delivering updates on system motion and traffic still lingering in the target pirate point. Or HPGs can do the job, if you feel the need to set up a really expensive traffic control system. Anyway, for heavily trafficked systems, some traffic control would take a lot of the danger out of pirate point jumps. Visiting systems in BFE should still be done by ZNJPs, of course.
Jump calculations will still take longer for a pirate point jump (more motions to allow for), but the navigator would only be picking his nose otherwise so this is giving him something useful to do while the jumpship recharges and exchanges cargo.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
03/27/03 02:24 PM
4.35.174.250
|
All of your arguments aside, this is simply not the way people in the universe behave. Only the desperate and the insane use pirate points on a regular basis. The Regular Military does not (despite undoubtedly having excellent charts.) Merchants CERTAINLY do not.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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masdog5
03/27/03 03:06 PM
205.213.145.41
|
'All of your arguments aside, this is simply not the way people in the universe behave. Only the desperate and the insane use pirate points on a regular basis. The Regular Military does not (despite undoubtedly having excellent charts.) Merchants CERTAINLY do not.'
Maybe at this time given the limited availablity of jumpships, but during the Star League Era, I could see some large station at a Terran Lagrange point with lots of docked Jumpshis and Warships around it. I also cant see colonists making a mutli-week journey from the Earth to a spot over Sol to jump out.
Something tells me that in the more heavily travelled systems, this did indeed happen at one time.
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Bob_Richter
03/27/03 07:07 PM
4.35.174.250
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The TAS Pathfinder made its jump from one of the standard jump-points (proximity points) of Sol.
Rarity of Jump-Points notwithstanding, who wants to take a serious risk of death or dismemberment just to avoid a week-long cruise to the jump-point? (or the week-long cruise FROM the jump-point?)
L-Points are small targets by comparison to proximity points, and completely unforgiving. If they were used as major traffic lanes, they'd be so congested there'd be a serious chance of a collision.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cray
03/27/03 08:10 PM
65.32.253.120
|
The TAS Pathfinder was using computers orders of magnitude slower than even BT standard navigational computers, and there are differences in navigational accuracy between jumpships.
I agree with Masdog5. I suspect use of pirate points was common in the Star League era, when jump accuracy was measured in hundreds of meters. I wouldn't trust post-3025 jumpships to pull that off.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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masdog5
03/27/03 09:36 PM
205.213.146.254
|
Not to mention, it would be like coming into an airport. If you know in advance that you are coming into that point in the system, you would schedule your arrival so there were no other ships jumping into that point. You could even get the nav. information ahead of time since its not hard to predict where the planet/moon/star are going to be in relation to where you are jumping from. Its all math, and I'm pretty sure its not much more difficult than predicting the next solar eclipse (Cray, correct me if I'm wrong).
Airlines have to do something similar in order to get their runway spots at airports.
Edited by masdog5 (03/27/03 09:38 PM)
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Cray
03/28/03 06:33 AM
65.32.253.120
|
In reply to:
Its all math, and I'm pretty sure its not much more difficult than predicting the next solar eclipse (Cray, correct me if I'm wrong).
There's an element of precision beyond normal eclipse prediction, but basically, yes.
(That is, the math to predict where the planet/moon/pirate point will be is like eclipse prediction. Setting up the jump seems to be about 60x more difficult than jumping to a zenith/nadir point - so many more motions to compensate for.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Bob_Richter
03/28/03 04:18 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>I wouldn't trust post-3025 jumpships to pull that off. <<<
Then you wouldn't trust Star League jumpships to pull it off either, as they're identical to their Succession Wars cousins, thus the term LosTech.
L-Points aren't that big. The null-grav (or close enough to be similar to a proximity point) zones are tiny targets, especially from 30 LY away. I don't think even the best of Star League Jump Drives were reliable at that level of precision.
Proximity points are vastly safer, and are actually the majority of pirate points.
There are an infinite number of proximity points ensphering a star, some much closer to the ecliptic than the Zenith or Nadir.
You might jump in only a few weeks ahead of or behind your target planet in its orbit, and all you need is a vague idea of where the planets are. I could agree to this kind of travel being common in the Star League, but I'm not about to credit L-point travel as a common means.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
06/27/07 09:04 AM
24.26.220.4
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Interesting ship.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
06/20/08 08:15 PM
68.26.130.218
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It only takes sqrt(10) times (about 3x) as long for a .1G jumpship to make the same journey as a 1G dropship.
I've heard this before.
Are you familiar with the equation, distance = (0.5) acceleration (time^2)? Solve for time and you'll where the square/square root relation kicks in on improved acceleration.
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Pirate points are your friends for fast cargo delivery.
Except, of course, that they're dangerous and unpleasant.
Jumpship captains who aren't keen on risking their lives avoid them, a pattern they can follow no matter how silly the cost tables get.
Well, now. I've pondered this. As Explorer Corps describes pirate points, they seem to be Lagrange points.
Normal (zenith/nadir) jump points (ZNJP) are moving targets to begin with, but they simplify things. They're simply fixed above/below a star's poles. Even from 30 light-years, it wouldn't take much in the way of 21st century astronomical gear to precisely eyeball the distance to a target star, note the star's motion relative to the one the jumpship is currently at, adjust for time delay of the star's images you're working with (it's light-years away: you're using years-old images), and then jump.
But a pirate point - ah! There's some fun. From a Tau Cetan (New Earth) ZNJP (about 12 LY from Earth), try figuring out where Earth is around Sol. Then try to figure out where the moon is around Earth. A jumpship can certainly see Sol - the human eye could see Sol from New Earth. But Earth itself? And the moon? (You need to know where both are to find the L4/L5 points.) Two small, dim bodies swinging around Sol, being jiggled by tens of kilometers from the tug and pull of Sol and Jupiter?
Yeah, the bodies that make pirate points are hard to spot, making "blind jumps" to pirate points dangerous.
Now, things get easier if you have up to date star system charts/databases. Those can contain up-to-date information on the motion of a star system's secondary bodies. Of course, a jumpship's captain's question must be: "How much have my jumpship's clocks drifted from the ones used to make this database?" In the space of about 1 minute, the Earth-moon L4/L5 points move their own lengths due to Earth's motion around the sun. Yes, precise clocks are critical.
It sounds like I'm just reinforcing your point about the danger of pirate points, doesn't it? Well, hang on. I'm going to disagree (for certain circumstances) next.
I figure pirates visiting a new system to raid for the first time probably use a visit to a ZNJP to map out a system, so they can find pirate points with the above discussed accuracy. They'll be using their own shipboard clocks and own databases.
Now, what about a frequented commercial route between two populous systems, the kinds of places that would use these behemoth compact core transports?
Think of it: they'll have orbital traffic control. Traffic control can keep central clocks for the registered merchants. It can provide up-to-date system databases for the merchants. Any merchant making these pirate point visits will benefit from knowing where the pirate points are (eliminating the biggest danger for pirate point jumps) and will have synchronized clocks (eliminating the other problem). Jumpships that arrive before they leave can serve as data couriers, delivering updates on system motion and traffic still lingering in the target pirate point. Or HPGs can do the job, if you feel the need to set up a really expensive traffic control system. Anyway, for heavily trafficked systems, some traffic control would take a lot of the danger out of pirate point jumps. Visiting systems in BFE should still be done by ZNJPs, of course.
Jump calculations will still take longer for a pirate point jump (more motions to allow for), but the navigator would only be picking his nose otherwise so this is giving him something useful to do while the jumpship recharges and exchanges cargo.
I might just see about getting my jumpship captains to do that. It would help in improving the cost of shipping out my weapon systems. As for incoming cargo. Well there is not much of it coming in. Raw minerals is about it. I manufacture almost everything that I need. As for food I could export it. But I need the space on my drop ships for the more expensive weapon systems that I export. I defenetly need more mule drop ships and merchant jump ships. I have weapons sitting in warehouses that need to be delivered.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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