Bulldog Questions

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chez
03/16/05 04:56 PM
62.173.81.122

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Given the overwhelming force put into Operations Bulldog and Serpent could the Inner Sphere acting in concert have removed the Clan threat altogether?
The limited mission of eliminating Clan Smoke Jaguar seems a piece of cake given the correlation of forces. Once you consider what the IS was prepared to throw at this plan the more Clan targets that are factored in just become like so many dominos waiting to be toppled.

chez
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Karagin
03/16/05 07:52 PM
65.129.167.175

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I don't think could have, not in the given time frame, their blitz into the Jags was a year or two max, that I think is about all the Houses could afford to give to the threat that is the Clans. Each house had other worries and internal matters that needed both the attention of their military and the rulers themselves.

Given that the Wolves and the Falcons had entrenched heavily on their conqured worlds and had the infrastruce to support their conquest and keep homeworld holdings under control means that it wasn't going to be a walk over to take them out. Also the Bears had a few tricks up their sleeves and their sudden change to embracing the Rasalhauge lifestyle and nation as part of their own would make it that they never gave up and would have boiled down into gurrillia war, add in the fact that the Rasalhaguers don't like the Kurtians, you have one hell of a bloody mess for the SL to deal with as they strove to remove the Bears.

Then let's not forget the other Clans, like the Horses and the Vipers. They could at any minute jump in add more issues to the SL (House Lords new toy)and their attacks could lead to the SL being cut off.

Plot wise, TPTB felt the only way to get business and sales a boost was to wipe out a faction, and so they did. What we got was a scenario pack, and some novels. Nothing major in sales there. What could have been done was a bunch of scenario packs, more novels that took us into the whole fight, not just the main points. and they could have also made it more of a fight for both sides. As it was everything was stacked against the Jags. From not having enough troops on Huntress, to having to use caputred mechs to police Huntress etc...I think someone at FASA was to into reading about the fall of the Third Reich and the later years of WW2 and went cool let's copy...er use this for our template for the whole war to remove the Jags. More could have been done to make it believe able on both sides and as I said in the Old School Thread, what happen was someone also read a book on how warfare has changed and wanted to incorperate the new theories (which by the time of BT's setting and events would be old school itself) and in doing so lost all scope of what they were coming up with.

Bottom line I don't think the combined IS militaries as given could do anything more then what they did.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
03/17/05 06:17 AM
147.160.136.10

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Quote:

Given the overwhelming force put into Operations Bulldog and Serpent could the Inner Sphere acting in concert have removed the Clan threat altogether?




Possibly. It depends on whether or not the targeted Clans begin working together and/or begin using their warships on a large scale.

Quote:

The limited mission of eliminating Clan Smoke Jaguar seems a piece of cake given the correlation of forces. Once you consider what the IS was prepared to throw at this plan the more Clan targets that are factored in just become like so many dominos waiting to be toppled.




Smoke Jaguar had several strikes against it:
1) It had never recovered from Tukayyid's losses thanks to constant to Combine raids (its touman was smaller than that of other Clans)
2) No other Clan moved to help the Smoke Jaguars; some moved against them. If the Inner Sphere displays an effort to stomp all invading the Clans, they might work together.
3) Jaguar Warships didn't really get into play. If all the Clans are losing in the Inner Sphere, that might change.
4) Operation Bird Dog dispersed Jaguar forces on their planets looking for rebels and guerillas, leaving them poorly placed to resist a major invasion. That might not be a repeatable trick.

Personally, I think something like Bull Dog is repeatable, though it wouldn't quite be the same as the first Operation Bull Dog. The Inner Sphere would have to be careful in its approach.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
chez
03/19/05 08:42 AM
62.173.81.122

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The first thing I would like to point out was that I answered this post yesterday and as I sent it either my system or the sarna system had a brainfart and wiped it. I was less than impressed.

I am surprised that people disagree on this as I thought the answer would be a certain 'Yes!'. that's not to say theat you are wrong you've just looked at it differently than me.
I am surprised that the IS leaders didn't cash in on the "latent nationalism" that must have surged through all of the border worlds on the Clan Occupation Zone when the Bulldog/Serpent Teams returned and said "We've won!".
The masses of displaced peoples must have thought "The Smoke Jaguars are gone now it's the turn of the Jade Falcons/Wolves/Ghost Bears" and yet the IS stopped. Can anyone see a parallel example in the 1990 Gulf War? And we ended up going back later to finish the job having given the bad guys time to rebuild/entrench.
Because of this feeling the Alshain Avengers situation was inevitable and I am surprised not an awfully lot more widespread. There surely should have been an equivalent attempt in Lyran space , I can't think of a more nationalistic race than the Germanic peoples and when you factor in Heimdall, an attempt to retake worlds is inevitable.
The other issue concerning Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon is that they do not feel bound by the peace obtained by the Trials on Strana Mechty. Simply put they are a time bomb in the IS waiting to go off. As rabid crusaders their only goal is Terra and that has not changed.
Therefore the solution is to deal with them now either one at a time or together ( I think the Ghost Bears are a different question that may be solved diplomatically rather than militarily) . After the Refusal War and the split of Wolf in Exile these are two of the most numerically inferior Clans although their quality is right at the top end. I don't know the exact size of their toumans but figure at approximately 10-12 Galaxies each or the IS equivalent of about 15-18 regiments spread out over an enormous amount of space. Plus they must garrison their homeworlds as well.
Consider the IS order of battle after Bulldog and Serpent. Here is a list of SOME of the units that would be used:-

Clan Nova Cat
Wolfs Dragoons
Wolf in Exile
Comstar
Kell Hounds
Genyosha
Ryuken
Knights of the Inner Sphere
Revenants
St Ives Lancers.

Take a moment to study that list and think of the numbers, experience level and technology base that these units have.
There are enough IS WarShips to counter that threat and we haven't started to add in the numerous house troops that would be a part of any assault- Lyran Guards , Crucis Lancers , Davion Guards, Legion of Vega , RCTs etc ad nauseum
When Victor turned up at Coventry with a fraction of the above the JFs ran away sharpish as they knew a pitched battle would destroy them win or lose.
When the Clans first appeared their success was based upon them attacking down an invasion corridor that was weak, still using lvl1 equipment and completely unprepared for the whirlwind blitzkrieg assault that is then clan way of war. As the IS learned successes became more difficult and now the Clans find themselves trying to prepare for two types of war-
Internecine Clan squabbling
Major IS assault
The two do not gel and it can only strengthen the IS cause to have some Clan units facing off other clan units.

The best reason for this liberation not happening would be the prospect of leaving Sun Tzu, Katherine Steiner and Word of Blake unattended for any period of time but even they must fear the reprisals of a victorious SLDF

chez

ps. Take another look at that list
"In order to stab someone in the back it is first necessary to get right behind them" Sir Humphrey Appleby
Karagin
03/19/05 08:00 PM
65.129.223.164

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The idea that it could have happen to the other Clans was possible only if the entire IS was in on it full, a unified and united IS with ALL but the bare bones units left behind hitting the Clans all at once could do what you are suggesting, but do you really think the IS could unite like that? Even in the time of the original Star League they had their petty feuds and raids and back stabbing and their lust for power was all still there. Then think about this, the Clans SAW what happen to the Jags, so wouldn't it make sense for them to dig in, fortify their holdings, and in some cases ease the pressures that they had on the locals? Also if IRC some of the worlds were doing better off under Clan control then ever did under their respective house control. SO for those worlds I doubt the populous would be willing to change hands again.

Yes you listed an impress munchy group to take on the Clans, the main line authors favorite units and groups. But look at it like this, they would also need garrison units for the planets, Wolf's Dragoons and the WiE had no desire to fight to the death against the Clans or fight to the homeworlds, so beyond taking some planets and in Phelan's case reclaim the Wolf holdings for his Warden's I doubt he would do much and ignore anyone telling him other wise. The Dragoons had other things to worry about like Outreach and keeping the other mercs honest and trying to figure out who and what they were now in an IS that was now different and hostile to them as a whole. The Kell Hounds, why would they need to much since they had all the goodies of being first in line for everything and Morgan's son was also their next biggest ally, so their taking part would be only if Victor begged and pleaded and convinved Morgan that it was worth it and that it could be done without to much lost, add in all of the other issues in the FedCom and you can rule out Morgan.

The Combine you might get, but again logistical issues come in to play and they would need time to work the Nova Cats into the Combine so you can cross them out. Also Teddy has a lot internal issues to deal with and those will show up no matter HOW the population of the combine feels about things.

Free Worlds League, some how I don't see Tommy (fake or not) support full scale war just to free some Lyran planets. He wouldn't gain much and his internal issues would wreack the hole FWL before anything worth while could be gotten from the war. So the FWL is out.

The CapCon...well here it get's tricky...Sun Tzu wants revenge against Davion, he also wants power for his relam and want to expand, so helping take planets on the far side of the IS from his holdings wouldn't mean much to him, and what captured war machines and tech he could get, doesn't mean he has them in production once he has them either, also he wouldnt want to be fifth fiddle to something like this and would want more control over things, so I am sure the other powers would either not ask for his help or treat him like the red head step child, an issue that both FWL and the CapCon rasied in the original Operations as to how their troops would be used. So we could and should rule out the CapCon.

Comstar...they have issues with the WoB. They are also in Victor's backpocket, they are also expending capital (is money and material) faster then they are getting it in, again something FASA and even FP is still forgetting, is logistical and monatery issues are killing point for miltiary operations. One or the other is going to bite the grand idea in the butt and cause it either fail or fall short of it's gains.

The Clans had internal fighting amongist themselves even while fighting the IS, they raided each other all the time and the Home Clans didn't care to change how they fought and the IS Clans weren't going to roll over and play dumb, not if FASA expected to sell more stuff and keep the fans interested in the game.

Bottom line is to much was going against them doing this on any larger of a scale and even with what they did they set in motion for things to happen like the FC civil war to finially come to a boiling point as well as Sun Tzu's crap with the attack on the Compact and the other not so nice things that have happen.

On the Heimdall issue, one thing Morgan Kell is a big deal in Heimdall as is the the Stiener family, so throught that Victor, also Loki is their biggest enemy, so Heimdal wouldn't be doing much without getting the okay from their holier than thou leadership.

And you said it your self, going after the other Clans would have given the enemies of the Houses involved the chance to do even more damage then was done.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Thor_Mech
03/31/05 08:06 PM
70.57.33.57

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Hmmm... don't forget that many of the IS elite troops were ripped up on Huntress. Also, the Jags were caught unprepared for an assault, their Omni's not configured for a defensive array. Also, the IS has surprise on their side. Due to the Combine's news blackouts, no one really knew what was going on other than the leaders themselves. In other words, I don't think another Operation Bulldog would come off with the same degree of success.
"Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills"
- Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard
Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
Karagin
03/31/05 08:55 PM
65.129.222.232

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No I am not forgetting how convientent it was for the IS...sorry but the whole wiping out of the Jags was poor storyline planning and the then Line Developer and authors wanting some major to happen to generate sales.

The whole plot was so weighted in favor of the IS from the start that the outcome was forgone conclusion.

How can the Omni configs be a factor? The weapons work at all ranges, and a decent commander can defend better then they can attack something. As for whole surprise issue, again I point to storyline. IT was awful convientent that the IS is handed everything they needed without having to force the Dragoons or WiE to aid them in finding the Homeworlds and in a nut shell made hash of a lot of the up to that point, sub plots that had been hinted about in the sourcebooks and else were.

But you are right, another Bulldog won't happen, because the story already has it's future mapped out...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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