Christopher_Perkins
01/23/08 10:11 PM
67.166.179.76
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This is the first of a series of posts that is intended to gather points together in the formulation of an actual conversion system to emulate real world weapons in the BattleTech Universe under the assumption that it is very unlikely that the weapons, materiel & equipment that the FASA designers knew about in 1985 were not a part of the history of the universe, and it is a good chance that any weapons, materiel and equipment discovered and/or developed since 1985 has made its way in some form or another into the history of the BattleTech Universe as well.
The MYTH that the ranges of the BattleTech Weapons are shorter than the ranges of Civil War Weapons is the greatest hurdle. This is a Myth, because, simply, we are never told the actual ranges of BattleTech Weapons, and have ,instead, been told... repeatedly (but most recently in Total Warfare) that the published ranges of the BattleTech Weapons are much shorter than the actual ranges for the BattleTech Weapons.
Since we are never given the actual ranges of the BattleTech weapons, how is it that they are so sure that Civil War Weapons have longer ranges... or is it simply a millitant imprecision of language that makes it necessary for the repeated use of the Myth rather than the Fact that the Published ranges are shortened in order that you can play a game on a tabletop... this artificial shortening of range is required, even with the size of the hexes being 1/3rd what would be required.
Some hold fast to the myth, and will often point to the facts of the miracluous (or absurdly in the opposite direction) weapons preformance in BattleSpace or the AT1/2 Space game as incontrovertible proof that the designers did not use the real world as a basis for the BattleTech game and will cheerfully (at first) ignore any responce that the ranges in Space were copied without ammendment from the ranges in the atmospheric game (absurdly so in AT 1 and its 6400 KM space Hexes) and the ranges in the Atmospheric Game were copied without ammendment from the ranges in BattleTech. and even the minor ammendment of the blending of the BattleTech ranges into the AeroTech 2 Range Bands does little to disguise the origins of the AT 2 ranges as little more than a direct copy from BattleTech.
And now to the actual Meat of the posts.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
01/23/08 10:37 PM
67.166.179.76
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The ranges in BattleTech are limited in a minimum of two manners.
The Easiest to missunderstand but the most blatent is that the Maps are at close to 1/3rd the scale that the mineratures are produced at, that is, if you used 1 MP or range unit in the stats as being three map hexes you would actually be playing on a battlefield that is scaled to the BattleMech and vehicle mineratures... (disregarding that the BattleTech infantry Mineratures are closer to MWDA Scale... but then again, I'd rather not have to use tweezers to move units in play).
Then there is the subtle fact that only the first 52% to 48% of the Hit Probability table is being used in the Standard/Tournament Game... its even worse if you use a target of 0 instead of 4 as your base line.
These two points tend to cast doubt on the Myth that BattleTech Weapons "stop and fall dead at one hex past Long Range".
The Mechanic of the ranges was made most clear when the +4 +6 +8 range band of the Original BattleTech game of the 80's was expanded into the +0 +1 +2 ... +7 +8 +9 ranges of the Solaris VII Boxed set of the '90s that could easily have been a cross between a solely mineratures game that got jumped by a map board (4" is scalear to the 1/285th scale mineratures while 4 hexes is actually a larger scale than minerature scale, the sole BattleTech Game that has this distinction) and a game to better illustrate the actual capabilities of BattleTech Weapons (Refire Rates, Graduated Ranges, etc), in addition to possibly being a vehicle to bring the BattleTech designers Mechwarrior Computer Gamimg triumph (yes, i do mean #1) back to the gaming table.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
01/23/08 11:59 PM
67.166.179.76
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BattleTech is probably loosely based on the real world concept of "Combat Range" in which the actual range of the weapon doesn't matter so much as the what the average Gunner, Trooper, or Rifleman will actually fire at. Being that the intention of the Standard / Trounament game has always been (Schrapnel) to limit the gaming area at the expense of versimilitude, it stands to reason that the shorter range stats would have been used as the basis for the published ranges.
The real world maximum effective range of a weapon, will tend to be based on the amount of damage that a weapon will do or the point at which the projectile will do 80% of its theoretical damage, this concept appears to be what they used in the (Mechwarrior / BattleTech RPG) 3rd Edition game when they were developing it. This is why the best equivelencie between BattleTech and the 3rd Edition of the BattleTech RPG (Mechwarriors' Guide to Solaris VII) has you picture the ranges as if the range multiple was 100 meter increments rather than the 30 meter increments of the game board for weapons while the movement remained at 30 meter increments.
I have sheets built to use as the basis for converting a real world weapon into BattleTech... they are available at various places on the web. I will however caution you that you should use the published Maximum Effective Range of the real world weapon in the portion of the sheet that is so labeled rather than using the longest range that you have heard that the weapon can hit at... while this may cost a few (or even many) hexes off the weapons range on a BattleTech Hex Map, do remember that the weapons of 1830, 1945 & 1985 are the precursers to the weapons of 2398 - 2460 (Age of War - Pre Mech) to 2569 (End of the Age of War) {formerly called Rules Level 1 Weapons and are now generally called the weapons of 3025...}, This means that BattleTech weapons are going to be better than the weapons of the present and past era's as weapons of today are better than weapons of the 19th Century. Thus since the Emulated Real World weapons should be blended into the weapons tables in such a manner that is believable rather than overpowering. Provided, Of Course, that the general class of weapon is still in use in the same role that it has today.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
01/24/08 06:40 AM
24.26.220.4
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One thing to remember the game is a table top game, thus they shorten the ranges to make it playable in a smaller "format" or area. You can make simple adjustments to the scale.
I have know people to play where each hex is 50 meters wide and thus increase the over all range of the weapons yet still using what FASA original gave us. On the other hand I have seen folks add in extra range brackets thus giving more to weapons and allowing for a large fighting area to be used versus the standard 1 to 4 map boards.
There have been several articles in BATTLETECHNOLOGY magazine about this as well as one or two in old STARDATE/STARDRIVE magazine as well.
Another idea is to use the ranges given in the old Solairs 7 Box Set rules, which I have seen done before as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Dester
01/24/08 04:21 PM
216.57.96.1
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Its a game, games have to fudge the technical details to make the pen and paper aspect work.
1 hex = 30 meters, so 30 meters X max number of hex range = BT range for a weapon.. ie 3hex X 30 meters = 90 meters for a heavy battlemech mounted machine gun, we all know this is unreasonable, but for the game it works.
My personal take... figure out all the ranges in meters then mulitply by 10 and you should get somewhere close to "real world" values. so that 90 meter max range for MG now becomes 900, which is reasonable.
And please don't confuse effective range to max mechanical range. Also just because its newer does not mean it has a better range. The springfield 1903 rifle had a longer effective range then the current U.S. Small arms rifle the M-16 A2.
Speaking of the M-16, its effective range is only 550 meters on a point target, while the bullet will actually travel several miles.
In the end, its a game, the ranges and rules were made to have fun... so play and have fun 
Dester
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Karagin
01/25/08 12:14 AM
24.26.220.4
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No kidding...I think I said that when I said they reduced the ranges so it can be played on a table top not the living room floor...
Please recheck your M16 facts...I think you have them skewed a bit.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
01/25/08 07:20 PM
67.166.179.76
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Quote:
One thing to remember the game is a table top game, thus they shorten the ranges to make it playable in a smaller "format" or area.
right... one of the things that they may have done in creating the game is only looking at the ranges that a warrior will shoot at in a combat Environment (Combat Range) rather than the ranges that the weapon is actually capable of hitting at (Maximum Effective Range.. and even that is only the point at which the weapon retains 80% of its damage potential)...
Quote:
You can make simple adjustments to the scale.
such as using 1:900th scale on the map instead of using 1/285th scale
that being said, multiplying the Hexes by three and retaining the BattleTech skills & scale (1/285th Minis & 1/900th Maps) would probably work out good... but then again if you want to go that far, might as well use mechwarrior Skills to match up with the BattleTech Range in hexes = 100 meters / BattleTech Movement in hexes = 30 meters feel that already exists in 3rd Edition
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
01/25/08 08:43 PM
67.166.179.76
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Quote:
3hex X 30 meters = 90 meters for a heavy battlemech mounted machine gun, we all know this is unreasonable, but for the game it works.
actually, while it is unreasonable... it is unreasonable in the wrong direction...
considering that machine guns come in calibres between 5.56 mm and 20 mm, its not too hard to figure that the effective range vs armoured targets is going to be absurdly short...
remember, Machine Guns are, primarily, ballistic weapons and the farther a projectile travels, the slower it is and the less kinetic energy it has to deliver to the target. Even in the real world you will see the Effective range vs Soft Targets and the Effective range vs Hard Targets... the BattleTech Books only concerned themselves with the range vs Hard Targets... and the Mechwarrior Books are getting closer to covering the full range of damage.
Canon will range from 20 mm up, and while some machine guns will have explosive ammo... its better to assume that they will be fireing ballistic ammo with a 50% chance of penetrating a 10 - 30 mm plate of armour (depending on the calibre of the weapon, this is what defines whither or not a shell is called AP or not in the real world nomenclature) and this concept has likely made it into the BattleTech and BattleTech RPG books as the AP rating, and the "Hard Targets" rule that requires an AP of 5 to do damage - 50% and AP 5 may be coincidence... or it may have been intentional use of the tens place for the similar concept.
Quote:
The springfield 1903 rifle had a longer effective range then the current U.S. Small arms rifle the M-16 A2.
not to mention that the older .30 Calibre AP shells would do better BattleTech damage than many of the newer 7.62 mm shells... heck, if i am right about the formulas the .30 Calibre M2 API shell does .44 BT damage while the 7.62 mm M59 Ball shell & M118 Special Ball would do .30 BattleTech damage... with both 7.62 mm/.30 calibre shells requireing 13.042 KJ to do BattleTech Damage, the higher muzzle velocity of the older/heavier barreled rifles appears to be making a difference...
But if you take the same Arbitrary point in the Damage/Range curve for the Real world and BattleTech Universe weapons, then you will have an accurate indicator of the weapons range...
that was primarily the point that i was trying to drive home...
if the BattleTech weapons are limited by factors such as
1: Using the range at which the weapon has lost 20% of its damage potential as the outer most (and unpulished) range band
2: only having the published ranges extend out to an arbitrary 48% to 52% of even the Effective range
then using the outer most maximum range where a canon has hit with computer assistance and desert conditions would be unbalnaced in the 20th - 22nd century weapons favor, especially when the 25th century weapon (AC/2, AC/5) probably has the same assists... or even better...
me, i am overly concerned with having custom weapons based on real world weapons nerfed by the same nerfing factors that were used to limit the ranges for the battletech weapons
this is also why i say the first statement in the poll is a compleat and utter falsehood, at worst, , at best, it is expressing certainty in the ranges of the BattleTech Weapons when, given indications, the actual ranges of the BattleTech weapons are probably not known to the current group of designers (why would someone keep that information when all that matters is the published ranges & information?)... while the second statement is the unvarnished truth with the Published ranges of BattleTech weapons actually bing shorter than the ranges of Civil war weapons that are reported by a different range mechanic (Civil war weapons with the same range mechanic would have considerably shorter ranges in battletech than simply dividing the Maximum Effective range by 30 meters and setting that as "long" range would suggest)
--------------------------------------
Going Back to the M16... the BattleSight is set for 300 meters... thats what i call the "Combat Range" and BattleTech would give a "4 Gunner" (the BattleTech equivelent of an average trained gunner ... house rules for giving veteran and elite gunners longer ranges to aspire to are suggested) the "Long range" of 126 meters... and with a single M855 shell doing 0.22 points of BattleTech Damage...
With the M855, a machine gun would need to fire
66 Shells per second (3960 rpm on full rock and roll untill the barrel sublimated, or a cyclic rate of 1584 rpm with a 1 second burst followed by 1.5 seconds of barrel cooling) to qualify as a BattleTech "Light" Machine gun...
149 shells per 1 second burst to qualify as a BattleTech (Medium) MG, and
233 shells per 1 second burst to qualify as a BattleTech "Heavy" MG
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
01/25/08 08:48 PM
67.166.179.76
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Quote:
In the end, its a game, the ranges and rules were made to have fun... so play and have fun
yes, they were limited to have fun... but people griping about the ranges is what led me to actually look at the mechanics that went into the ranges...
and, like with most things in battletech, its easier to accept the way things are set up in the Game if you try to understand the background that gave rise to it
if you figure that the Mechwarrior 3e "Extreme" range of the weapon (BattleTech Equivelnt to a weapons "long" range (with mech fire control)) is probably the weapons "real world" Maximum Effective Range (80% damage retain / 20% damage loss) of the weapon, and that the BattleTech sweet spot is MER/100 m * 30 m... and Long range is 48% of that range... then the range becomes acceptable... if not acceptable it would qualify as a tooth that has been pulled rather than continuing to give pain.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Christopher_Perkins
01/25/08 09:26 PM
67.166.179.76
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Quote:
Please recheck your M16 facts...I think you have them skewed a bit.
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7669.html
300 m "Range the Sight is set to 'zero' at" (aka "Combat Range")
550 m Maximum Effective Range (light rounds loose damage -very- fast)
3,500 M Maximum Range...
and then IIRC range safety guidelines dictate that you double that to determine the danger zone
I guess the easiest way to say it is that the Mechwarrior / BattleTech RPG 3rd edition "Extreme" Range is the point before you remove an AP point due to the reduced veleocity(*mass=KE) of the round...
I have a complicated equivelencie formula that takes into account the calibre of the shell (or, if appropriate, the subcalibre of the sabot), the mass of the penetrator, the velocity of the round, etc to determine the BattleTech damage at a specific Range... gve, its not up to the point where it handles loss of velocity and is fixated on the 80% point rather than Max Damage...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Rotwang
05/14/08 06:44 PM
213.224.170.219
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I basically make a difference between BT the game and BT the universe. In the boardgame, mechs have short ranges. In the universe (and fanfics I've written) mechs tend to have longer ranges and won't fall apart after x-number of shots.
I simply assume the boardgame is an abstraction.
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Christopher_Perkins
05/15/08 02:29 AM
24.125.106.130
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The Board Game is definately an abstraction, how ever, the abstraction is neither handwavium nor truly arbitrary
However, as with the BattleForce 1 & 2 rules being a rules based abstraction of BattleTech, The Ranges in BattleTech are rules based abstractions from what the weapons would really be able to do...
I believe that i am very close to deciphering the formulas that were first used...
did you note that 21 * 100 m is close to the rw ranges of some of the Circa 1980-5 anti Tank and anti-air missiles in the 8.33 kg range?
the same with 9 * 100 m for some 1980-5 anti-tank missiles in the 20 kg range
and then there is how 24 * 100 is fairly close to real cannon ranges, and 9 * 100 isnt to be sneezed at, especially with the heavy volume of fire that these weapons need to be putting out (100x 30 mm shells for the Victor's Pontiac 100)
10 shells from a 30 mm AC/2 get 2400 meters...
100 shells from a 30 mm AC/20 get 900 Meters...
the only difference is the volume of fire and the battletech convention of more unguided weapons = less range (q.v. rocket launchers)
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/13/08 08:03 PM
70.6.71.158
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Quote:
Its a game, games have to fudge the technical details to make the pen and paper aspect work.
1 hex = 30 meters, so 30 meters X max number of hex range = BT range for a weapon.. ie 3hex X 30 meters = 90 meters for a heavy battlemech mounted machine gun, we all know this is unreasonable, but for the game it works.
My personal take... figure out all the ranges in meters then mulitply by 10 and you should get somewhere close to "real world" values. so that 90 meter max range for MG now becomes 900, which is reasonable.
And please don't confuse effective range to max mechanical range. Also just because its newer does not mean it has a better range. The springfield 1903 rifle had a longer effective range then the current U.S. Small arms rifle the M-16 A2.
Speaking of the M-16, its effective range is only 550 meters on a point target, while the bullet will actually travel several miles.
In the end, its a game, the ranges and rules were made to have fun... so play and have fun
Dester
Your comparing apples to oranges. The springfiled 1903 is a rifle or long rifle. Where the M-16 is an assault rifle. Assault rifles where never meant to have a effective range over 300 meters. It was found that in WWll that most troops hit nothing beyond 300 meters. Also if I remember right 10,000 rounds of ammo was fired for each casualty in WWll.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Christopher_Perkins
08/31/08 05:10 AM
24.125.201.167
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It's a bit more complicated than that...
1. Fire Discipline beyond the (Marine Corps) is that soldiers tend to spray and pray at close range targets... mostly at a targets Center Mass, this is why most modern combat arms have selectrics for 1 shot, 3 Shot, and multi-shot bursts.
2. Combat Ranges are the ranges that soldiers will actually use the Weapon At. Maximum Effective Range is the Rangs that the rounds fired by the Weapon will retain 80% of their Damage Potential (see formula for kinetic energy delivered to the target on wikipedia). Totally different concepts.
3. Modern Combat Arms (other than purpose built "Sniper Rifles") have underpowered rounds because the designers are acknowledging the fact that most soldiers will not enguage targets at longer ranges...
4. Ranges in the BattleTech Game are geared ONLY for doing damage to Armoured Units... even though you could fire at infantry and unarmoured targets, there are no provisions (up to Total Warfare and Tech Manual... were they in Tactical Operations Manual?) for longer ranges against Unarmoured / Lightly Armoured Targets.
5: Ranges in the BattleTech RPG 3rd Edition Game are geared to more accruately reflect the ranges of the actual Weapons in the BattleTech Universe... the 2100 Meter range of the LRM reflects this perfectly. Something similar in preformance and Function to a IIRC Korean or Vietnam War Era "Redeye" Missile.
6. in game terms to hit a target at BattleTech RPG 3rd Editions "Extreme Range", you need to roll to beat an 8 on 2d10... and a BattleMech or other combat units (Advanced Targeting System comming standard with Combat Vehicles and Battle Armour), and Support Vehicles /ExoSkeletons equipped with Advanced Targeting System) would get a +2 Targeting Bonus. Extreme Range in BattleTech RPG 3rd Edition for Advanced Targteting System Equipped Units is roughly Equivelent to Long Range in BattleTech
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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