Frabby
01/21/08 05:01 PM
87.164.224.195
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It has been suggested that I take the issue from the BT wiki to the forum for you people to (hopefully) help me out a bit: I am looking for "lost" systems and "unknown" systems, and am trying to gather enough information on them to nail them. Any help you can give is appreciated.
For explanation, I'll take the liberty and copy the relevant part of the Catergory talk:Planets page here:
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How do we treat "Lost Planets", i.e. those that are mentioned somewhere but do not show up on the starmaps? Off the top of my head, examples of lost planets include:
* Dorwinion, the alledged original manufacturing site of the Dervish in Davion space (may have been rectonned to actually be a region on Belladonna where the firm Cal-Boeing of Dorwinion is located)
* Ilion V, where Hansen's Roughriders fought against loyal Marik forces during their breakaway
* Lincoln, where WHs Imarra and LuSann defeated a Davion force in 3001
* Pacifica, a Steiner planet where the story of the "Crescent Hawks Inception" takes place (turns out Chara is named "Pacifica" in the German Atlas so that one is probably solved; I think the world of Chara III is called Pacifica)
* Remis III, site of a Davion/Lindon's Company battle against Wolf's Dragoons/Black Widow Company from the original BT rulebook
* Tsanna, planet on the Davion/Liao border where WH Ijori mauled Davion forces in 3003 and which is also mentioned in the Sword and Dagger novel
I am sure there are other examples...
Further, there are references to planets that are explicitly stated to be unknown. Examples include:
* Alpha Hydri ("a desolate wasteland discovered a year before", i.e. in 3014) to where Precentor Vesar Kristofur was exiled by ComStar after Anton Marik's failed revolt that he had helped to engineer.
* Trisha (eight jumps into the periphery, presumably from the Lyran Commonwealth), where the ComGuards fought the final battle against pirate forces at the conclusion of the Jolly Roger Affair
Frabby 07:47, 15 January 2008 (CST)
From what I can gather, most of these were planets that were created for certain stories, then not canonized as planets in the atlas. Because of this situation, TPTB have had to retcon some of the information, as with Dorwinion and Pacifica above. Tsanna is probably Tsamma. For the others, sources might help. --Scaletail 20:34, 19 January 2008 (CST)
I think they are positively canon and do not need to be canonized as you put it. Some are even repeatedly mentioned in several different canon sources. Conversely, the atlases and housebook star charts are so full of errors and omissions that they cannot rule out a canonical planet/system simply because they forgot to mention it, misspelled it or misplaced it.
Many planets apparently have different names from their respective star system (Trellwan = Trell I, Pacifica = Chara III; an extreme example is Brimstone wich is described as the fifth planet in a close binary system of the stars Orpheus and Eurydice - but the system is summarily called Weisau!). To make matters worse, much German material was produced by FanPro under an original license, so the German stuff in genuine canon and not translated from English canon sources. Some may even never have been translated into English. Which brings me back to the original issue: Is it worth creating a Wiki project to gather information and try to nail down the "lost" planets, or is this Talk page enough? Any help in identifying and sorting out "lost" planets is appreciated because I only have so much time and canon material.
Btw I ruled out Tsanna to mean Tsamma because the former is frequently referred to as a contested world on the Davion/Liao border while the latter is on the periphery side of the Davion/Kurita border. And the name is "Tsanna" in both English and German material. Frabby 09:05, 20 January 2008 (CST)
Honestly, I think the CBT forums are a better place to do this simply because there are a lot more people, some of whom may already have answers (including writers). My mistake on Tsamma. I keep getting confused about its location because the Tsamma Lancers were a core part of Tancred Sandoval's force during the FCCW. If you do want to do this here, then I would suggest working within Project:Planets rather than creating a new Project as this seems to fall under its purview. --Scaletail 17:52, 20 January 2008 (CST)
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Karagin
01/21/08 09:27 PM
24.26.220.4
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Wow...now this is going to take some double and triple checking of books...
Best bet is to ask on all of the BT boards:
Mordel's
Heavy Metal Pro's Forums
CBT
Dropships
Solairs
Just to name the big name ones...I am sure someone will be able to help you out...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Askhati
01/23/08 05:25 PM
168.209.97.42
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Erm... What might the point of this be? To prove that there are 'lost' planets? I do not think anyone will disagree with Frabby on that...
Evolve or DIE!
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Karagin
01/24/08 06:33 AM
24.26.220.4
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Do me a favor, read his post again, he asks for help, I offer him several other areas to pursue his quest, IF someone here can't help him.
Now where did I lose you on this part?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/24/08 08:18 AM
147.160.136.10
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You might look in the new House Handbooks. If you compare maps between eras, you'll note planets dropping off the maps left and right as they're nuked, starved, or dehydrated into extinction. The Inner Sphere lost a total of about 200-250 worlds between 2786 and 3025.
Also, you might want to look up Oystein, who frequents www.heavymetalpro.com. He made the maps and is keeping track of lost Inner Sphere planets.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Askhati
01/26/08 07:08 AM
168.209.97.42
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I apologize for my first post - I misread Frabby's posts and thought he was trying to prove these systems exist, instead of trying to obtain their realspace locations. My bad.
Comment on Cray's post though: If the IS lost all those planets in the period 2787-3025, what was happening with the new (not reclamation) colonization efforts? Were there any? Or had the Houses simply stopped expanding at some time?
Evolve or DIE!
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Lafeel
01/26/08 09:04 AM
157.157.109.146
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I think we can safely rack it up to the loss of technology, and or, data, due to the succession wars.
There are a lot of things the Inner Sphere doesn't know about the Star League era, I'm sure.
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Askhati
01/26/08 09:17 AM
168.209.97.42
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It might have been also due to the fact that once the Succession Wars began, the Houses focused on hammering existing enemy planets, instead of trying to "make" (read: terraform/colonize/etc) new ones for themselves.
Dunno, it just bugged be. What about the Periphery folk - were there at least any serious attempts at exploration and colonization on their behalf?
Evolve or DIE!
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Frabby
01/26/08 10:52 AM
87.164.196.146
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To clear up possible misunderstandings: "Lost" may not be the exact word. I mean planets (or systems) that are mentioned somewhere in the canon (usually in passing) but cannot be found in the starmaps.
For example, it says in the Hansen's Roughrider background that they sided with Anton Marik in the civil war then became mercs when the Rebellion failed, following a battle against loyal House Marik troops on Ilion V. Where the hell is Ilion V?! (Well, likely in the FWL and presumably near the Steiner border. But it is not on any map I have.)
Another example: Ander's Moon, the homeworld of Gideon Braver (Mechwarrior computer game). You will never find it in any starmap, but its location corresponds with Elidere IV (after cross-referencing with some other, more prominent worlds on the game map like Hoff). So that one is nailed.
This search includes, but is not limited to, worlds "lost" over the course of the succession wars.
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Cray
01/27/08 10:29 PM
97.97.243.184
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Quote:
Comment on Cray's post though: If the IS lost all those planets in the period 2787-3025, what was happening with the new (not reclamation) colonization efforts? Were there any? Or had the Houses simply stopped expanding at some time?
The Houses had stopped expanding at the time because they were in a fight for survival. The Succession Wars started (1st-2nd Wars) with an intensive effort to destroy other Houses' abilities to travel between stars. Jumpship fleets were eradicated, shipyards were destroyed, and the skilled engineers who knew how to build jumpships were killed, leaving the Houses (by 3025) barely able to sustain their current number of planets. They were lucky they weren't backsliding to fewer numbers of planets.
The last period of serious colonization was in the Star League era, when over a thousand planets were settled in or near the Inner Sphere. The Succession Wars-era Houses couldn't hope to match that - they were lucky they had any interstellar travel.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
01/27/08 10:37 PM
97.97.243.184
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Quote:
Dunno, it just bugged be. What about the Periphery folk - were there at least any serious attempts at exploration and colonization on their behalf?
The Periphery folk had fought a war with the Inner Sphere about 250 years before the Succession Wars called "The Reunification War." This war was fought at the birth of the Star League and was an effort by the new Star League to subjugate the Periphery, which largely worked.
The Star League remained very paranoid about the restive and surly Periphery folk, so it passed numerous laws to keep the Periphery suppressed. These laws ranged from high taxes to biased trade laws that led to the Periphery's critical industries moving into the Inner Sphere.
By the outbreak of the Succession Wars, the Periphery's key industries - those building jumpships, fusion engines, water filters, etc. - were located in the Inner Sphere. And where did the nukes fall in the Succession Wars? On the Inner Sphere factories that built jumpships, fusion engines, etc.
The Periphery folk were lucky to be able to avoid ending up in a new stone age...and many independent Periphery worlds did not avoid that fate.
So, while the Inner Sphere hammered itself into garbage, the Periphery slid backwards technologically. The Periphery might've avoided that slide if it had been left alone, but countless advanced military units fled the Succession Wars and tried to survive in the Periphery - i.e., they became pirates, robbing the Periphery nations for food, technology, and water.
As a result, the Periphery nations were deprived of technology by the Succession Wars, and the Periphery nations were then denied the chance to recover thanks to ceaseless pirate attacks. The Periphery just never got the breather it needed to begin colonzing.
When the Periphery did have some quiet time, it did quite well. In the 3040s and 3050s, the Magistracy of Canopus and Taurian Concordat worked to settle the little-developed space between their nations. They developed that region so rapidly that it was able to rebel and assert its independence in just a few short years. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lord_Cameron
09/27/08 06:14 PM
67.55.140.196
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Quote:
To clear up possible misunderstandings: "Lost" may not be the exact word. I mean planets (or systems) that are mentioned somewhere in the canon (usually in passing) but cannot be found in the starmaps.
For example, it says in the Hansen's Roughrider background that they sided with Anton Marik in the civil war then became mercs when the Rebellion failed, following a battle against loyal House Marik troops on Ilion V. Where the hell is Ilion V?! (Well, likely in the FWL and presumably near the Steiner border. But it is not on any map I have.)
Frabby the system "Ilion" is listed on the map in the new "House Marik" handbook, it is indeed on the LC/FWL border area, roughly in the center of a triangle formed by Cavanaugh, Dixie & Bolan.
An interesting question you raised, as I have given this some thought too. The new FWL handbook mentions this as one of several planets that were so badly nuked that the world was abandoned. It would seem to me that the maps ONLY include inhabited worlds, as if you consider the details of the maps, there are several systems that are unreachable. For example, Von Strang's world, Mica, Port Krin, Detroit and Tortuga Dominions are unreachable from the inner sphere using standard jump distances. So I would extrapolate that the designers of the maps left out all of the uninhibited planets, that would however be needed as waypoints to reach these other systems.
When Ilion was abandoned it would have been eliminated from the map as it became an uninhabited {radioactive!} planet circling a distant sun. It might be useful to include them on a map however, if you are tracking fleet or invasion movements, as the system would still be useful for military forces, which don't need habitable planets
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Cray
09/28/08 02:38 PM
97.97.243.184
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Quote:
Frabby the system "Ilion" is listed on the map in the new "House Marik" handbook, it is indeed on the LC/FWL border area, roughly in the center of a triangle formed by Cavanaugh, Dixie & Bolan.
An interesting question you raised, as I have given this some thought too. The new FWL handbook mentions this as one of several planets that were so badly nuked that the world was abandoned. It would seem to me that the maps ONLY include inhabited worlds, as if you consider the details of the maps, there are several systems that are unreachable.
The mapping conventions in BattleTech are this:
In the Inner Sphere, you only see the inhabited systems on the map. There are actually about 1000 uninhabited systems in the Inner Sphere for every inhabited system (a 500LY radius around the Inner Sphere contains over 2 million stars). That's too many to show on the map.
In the Periphery, only significant (i.e., notable for plot reasons) systems are on the map. The population density of inhabited systems does not stop sharply at the borders of the Inner Sphere; it drops off slowly. You should be able to find dozens of inhabited planets with large populations near the Inner Sphere, they're just too politically minor to be noteworthy. It's from systems like those that the Rim Collection appeared suddenly in the 3040s.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Frabby
09/30/08 01:06 PM
87.164.226.254
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Thanks for the heads-up, Lord Cameron. In fact, this discussion has evolved a good bit beyond what is here over at the CBT forum:
http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,34841.0.html
And regarding the actual number of systems (as opposed to known, major human colonies) Cray and my humble self exchanged some arguments in the "Transport" thread on this forum
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/151766/an/0/page/0#151766
(And I'll have to say that while I want to believe Cray, the CBT writers have yet to sanctify his opinion with canonical data... until then I regard it as another case where established canon trumps common sense.)
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Christopher_Perkins
10/01/08 12:30 AM
24.125.201.167
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Quote:
It would seem to me that the maps ONLY include inhabited worlds,
That is correct
Quote:
as if you consider the details of the maps, there are several systems that are unreachable.
that is incorrect, there are no unreachable worlds... within the sphear centered on Terra and bounded by the coremost fringe of Clan space on the coreward sector that is.
It is mere CUSTOM alone that demands that Shipping and Military Transports pass only through inhabited space. Strict Necessity often has ships passing through areas that they might not be able to repair anythign that malfunctions on the Jump Ship... Most especially the Jump Drive.
Reading further, you did allude to this...
Even then, you can execute mid-space jumps if no Uninhabited Starsystems (even worldless suns) are available... Remember it is not the Lack of a Stars presence that is a limit on the Jump, but rather the opposite... the closer you are into the sun, the more you have to find gravitationally null zones to jump into or out of the region.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Cray
10/04/08 10:13 PM
66.66.37.225
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Quote:
And regarding the actual number of systems (as opposed to known, major human colonies) Cray and my humble self exchanged some arguments in the "Transport" thread on this forum
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/151766/an/0/page/0#151766
(And I'll have to say that while I want to believe Cray, the CBT writers have yet to sanctify his opinion with canonical data... until then I regard it as another case where established canon trumps common sense.)
Well, Frabby, you need to ignore a lot of star systems and a lot of warm bodies for 2000 jumpships to ever work in BT. 20,000 to 30,000 would be the bare minimum you'd need to get the observed starvation of jumpships seen in the 4th SW and the like and still meet other aspects of canon, like the import-dependent worlds that survived the Succession Wars.
I'd personally like to see the many canon examples of bulk interstellar exports and import-dependent worlds retconned to something smaller, but that's too big of a change to ever fly. (And the bulk exports/import-dependent planets keep popping up in new publications, no matter how often I gripe.) The alternative is to throw out one screwed up number on the jumpship population that was only ever published once.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (10/04/08 10:37 PM)
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