CYBRN4CR
02/13/10 01:44 AM
71.236.221.45
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These next series of threads examine some of my redesigned 3050 Clan mechs, and their potential utility among the Clans.
This thread examines my redesigned Mad Dog.
Stats are shown in MegaMek condensed style to reduce clutter.
Code:
Mad Dog Prime (Custom)
60 tons Clan TW
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 240 XL
Heat Sinks: 14 [28]
Internal: 99 (Endo Steel)
Armor: 192/201 (Ferro-Fibrous)
HD: 3 9
CT: 20 30 ( 7)
RT: 14 20 ( 7)
LT: 14 20 ( 7)
RA: 10 20
LA: 10 20
RL: 14 26
LL: 14 26
Large Pulse Laser [LA] 10 Heat
Large Pulse Laser [RA] 10 Heat
LRM 20 [LT] 6 Heat
LRM 20 [RT] 6 Heat
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [LT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
LRM 20 Ammo (6) [RT]
ECM Suite [HD]
Carrying Capacity:
One battle armor squad
BV: 2,214 Cost: 14,148,000 Cbills
I think it's pretty good. Can certainly perform it's functions better than the original. 
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Karagin
02/13/10 01:52 PM
80.149.45.102
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It is a fire support mech, the Naga does a much better job. Now against the Inner Sphere this works but they can counter this with fire support of their own.
You would be better off giving this jump jets if you can find away to fit them on there, you really don't need all the ammo you have given it, not for most of the typical battles.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/13/10 11:47 PM
71.236.221.45
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As far as I know, the Naga is the Clan's Arrow IV mech, and they don't like to use Arrow IV indirectly due to their views about warfare. What would be good for Clan Nagas to have is their own TAG so that pilots can attack their own targets. But they don't, thus Nagas can't make effective use of their own biggest weapons without help, which is virtually nonexistant as Clanners are more worried about their own firepower, than functioning as a team (which is the Inner Sphere's greatest strength).
Now the Mad Dog was meant to be a frontline missle mech, with pulse lasers as backup. I just enhanced its longevity, armor, and its heat management so that it can slug it out longer with all its intended weapons.
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Karagin
02/14/10 01:37 AM
80.149.45.102
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They don't like to play gang bang either and all of your designs are reflecting of that tactic. You really don't seem to understand Clan tactical thinking. They try to stay one on one for the most part, allowing each warrior to kill their targets, yes they do help each other out, but not to the point where 5 mechs are firing on one mech. The only time they go all out like that is if the other side does they same.
Enhanced it to the point of pushing into the realm of munchkin land.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 05:15 AM
71.236.221.45
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I don't know where you are getting the idea that I am advocating ganging up behavior for the Clans. I think you are going out on a limb there, as that is not my intention at all.
Picture this scenario: a Clan warrior in the canon Mad Dog prime varient. Normally with only 6 (I think) shots per launcher, they will have to be VERY conservative with their missiles, effectively reducing their overall firepower (as they only have the pulse lasers to rely on and even then the warrior can only fire the large ones without much heat issues). This turns those missile launchers into 12 tons (w/ ammo) of wasted tonnage, until they deem it necessary to fire those weapons. However, once those 6 shots per launcher are up, it's like the mech never had twin LRM 20s at that point. Not good in any sort of battle scenario OR Clan trial.
My design fixes these weaknesses. While I would have loved to put jumpjets on, the rule of 24 won out for the ammo. To do all this I reduced the engine rating, maxed the armor, removed the med pulse lasers and exchaned them for heatsinks, with just enough tonnage for 8 tons of ammo (24 shots per launcher). This makes for a much deadlier Mad Dog overall as now the pilot doesn't have to worry so much about running out of ammo. They can engage enemies one on one for FAR longer than the original ever could.
The Mad Dog can finally be an effective, standalone, mech.
Otherwise, I wouldn't even bother and get an all energy weapon variant. 
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Karagin
02/14/10 05:36 AM
80.149.45.102
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That is the point, the Clans fight conservative, they don't go blasting away just to show they can do so. They fight to show who is the better warrior, they do not turn the art of war in a paint by numbers style like you are wanting to do with your improvements.
Your mechs fit the Inner Sphere style of fight, that means two or more mechs blasting away at several targets as they come into range or once their buddies have soften them up.
You seem to be confusing the two styles and trying to merge them into something they are not. You have too much ammo, you will never use it in a normal BT game. Seriously how many times have you actually played the board game versus playing Mega-Mek? I am asking because your claim that you need all this extra ammo is suggesting that you do not have a lot time playing the board game against other people. Maybe you have played for a long time but your theories are not suggesting that.
Your Mad Dog makes mechs like the Stormcrow pointless. Sure it's a stand alone mech, it has enough ammo to fire until the world ends at the going rate. I am sorry but your mechs is not something Clans would use.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 07:26 AM
71.236.221.45
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Ok. Thank you for your opinion.
But in the end, I disagree, and still think that simply adding more ammo does not mean that these mechs were meant to fight in Inner Sphere fashion. They are CLAN mechs, and so they are designed to increase their effective firepower, and have increased armor so Clan warriors can win more trials, engage more enemies in those trials, and in turn engage more Inner Sphere mechs in CLAN fashion. They are beneficial in all senses of Clan warfare.
Now if your real beef with my designs is the ammo, then let me tell you something. I have played a Star of heavies and assaults vs a full company of heavies and assaults before with these mechs, and I have to say the extra ammo IS appreciated. By the time the dust settled, I was able to win by using terrain and my extra ammo to its fullest. I probably could've gone for an extra lance, but that was pushing it. Now what Clanner wouldn't like those odds? 
And, no, it doesn't make the Stormcrow pointless. The Stormcrow is a medium mech, and thus is meant to be faster than heavy mechs. So even though the Stormcrow won't be able to carry as much weaponry, it will still be able to outrun heavy designs in a pinch.
I'm not as contradictory as you think. I HAVE done my homework.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/14/10 04:15 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
02/14/10 05:30 PM
203.208.78.129
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Hate to burst your bubble but 5 clan vs 12 IS and the clan winning is not all that uncommon. Especially if dueling rules are in effect.
Just had to say it....
I kinda agree... i think you take the extra ammo to the extream the the Mad Dog would be fine with 12 or even 9 shots per launcher, 24 is just a waste of space... you should never use it and iff you do then your not fighting in the clan way... at all.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/14/10 06:45 PM
71.236.221.45
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My bad. It was a Star vs two companies of heavies and assaults. I remember because I had six bots, each commanding a lance of mechs.
I guess I stand alone on the matter of ammo. Which is fine. But I sorely disagree on the matter that it's anti-clanlike.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/14/10 07:04 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 01:29 AM
123.2.140.247
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bots....?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 02:56 AM
71.236.221.45
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In MegaMek you can host a simulated Battletech board game with AI players, aka. "Bots." These bots can control as many mechs as you want, but for speed, it's better to have each bot control a lance up to a Comstar demi-company.
So if you want to simulate two companies worth of enemy mechs, you create 6 bots, have them control a lance each, and have all the bots on one team.
Got it?
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Karagin
02/15/10 03:20 AM
80.149.45.102
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Which proves my point that the game is NOT like the board game. Computers are predictable, they can only do what is programed. Where as a human won't do predictable moves or actions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 03:40 AM
71.236.221.45
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Hey, if you have a copy of MegaMek, I'd love to do several throwdowns with you.
It's one thing to say it's a different experience with actual players, but it's another thing to say it's a whole different game. Just callling you out on that fact.
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Karagin
02/15/10 04:03 AM
80.149.45.102
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I played the game a few times, I got bored with it since the game did the same moves over and over. I would rather play face to face with a person, it is more fun and worth while.
And you are right it is a fact that playing the game, any game, versus a human IS a different game then playing the computer. I can regularly beat the computer, not so likely against a person.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:01 AM
203.208.78.129
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Ah i see...
Well in that case you really need to play vs real peeps more often. No design is truly battle proven till it's been taken out for a spin by human hands.
No computer can EVER simulate the pure chaos that comes from human thoughts and emotions.
You'd be surprised what ideas come when the chips are down and your facing imminent defeat.
No, until you've faced human players nothing else counts.
Explains the over ammo-ing of your designs tho...
Tell me about this mega mek a little... does it use focus firing? Jump attacks? Physical attacks? Anything more than basic come close and shoot tactics?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 06:12 AM
71.236.221.45
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You are allowed it in the options, but as of the bots not sure. Haven't tested it THAT much. One thing for sure, they know how to exploit MY weaknesses.
I like it because it greatly simplifies calculation.
Well, if there is anything I will admit defeat to is the fact I have yet to play against a human opponent (on MegaMek or the physical board game). With that said, if I can figure out more about its networking abilities, I'd love to play against y'all to get some experience.
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:15 AM
80.149.45.102
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And using a computer to run that isn't the same as having the board, the counters/miniatures and having to roll your own dice. Adding in all the distractions of things like people talking, moving around, kids, spouses, cell phones etc...all that make up the part of playing the game and still being able to stay focused on what you are doing.
Let me know when the computer can sim all of that.
Where do you actually live? City or state if in the US or are you in Europe? I am stationed in Germany currently, but normally I am in Texas or Michigan back in the states.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:19 AM
203.208.78.129
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I must say then until you have tested the finer points of that software your designs and comments won't really hold a lot of weight... sure the theory is sound but everyone knows that theory and practice in warfare are VERY different.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:26 AM
80.149.45.102
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Uhmmm I have used the program before, back on my Win ME machine, it is not a new program. I found it to be lacking and while okay for long distance gaming, there are better game engines out there that could be modded into a BT game. Like the Steel Panthers series of games for the tactical fight or Hearts Of Iron games for a larger scale fight.
I would rather play against a person for several reason, one it gives me the chance to make a new friend and thus share ideas and swap stories about the game and past battles. And second it allows me to learn, by watching, new tactical moves or ideas on how to use mechs in a mix that I may not have thought of my self.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:32 AM
203.208.78.129
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There's that as well. Two heads are better than one after all (if they listen to each other).
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 06:56 AM
80.149.45.102
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True.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 06:59 AM
203.208.78.129
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I must say that even with our differences of opinions i like that there is more going on here at the sarna boards... perhaps it will continue...
Hey cyber how about some vehicle designs? Or is that mega mek not able to do vehicles.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Karagin
02/15/10 07:02 AM
80.149.45.102
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It can do vehicles, or so it could back when it first came out...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Tripod
02/15/10 08:07 AM
192.94.94.105
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So Cy, What part fo the world are you in? I'd love to attempt some multiplayer MegaMek. Not sure what version I have currently. There seems to be a constant few, regular posters here. I don't know why we dont get together on MegaMek and have some fun.
TBA
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 05:28 PM
71.236.221.45
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I'm happy y'all want to know where I live. Though to be frank, I think it's so the lot of you can send a few Salamanders my way to torch my ass.
But all past grievances aside, I live in Portland, OR.
@ Zandel
Megamek can simulate everything from infantry, to Battle armor, to vehicles, to mechs, to ASFs, to dropships, and it even has listings for Jumpships, Warships, and I think space stations (need to confirm this). Since I usually play ground battles, I'm not too familiar on the AT2 side of things.
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 05:40 PM
123.2.140.247
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No need to fear me... I'm in Australia!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 06:20 PM
71.236.221.45
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Well, that's comforting, at least. 
BTW, don't confuse MegaMek with a design builder like TDB, Vehicle Factory, or the HM series. It's a computerized Battletech board game with the ability to host games over the net. Again, I have to truly test how that works, but I figure real people can play on that platform as well.
I just post designs in MegaMek-style readouts because it's to the point without all the extra clutter.
Edited by CYBRN4CR (02/15/10 08:42 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
02/15/10 10:41 PM
123.2.140.247
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Is this free? if so where can i find it? if not where can i find it anyway?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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CYBRN4CR
02/15/10 11:09 PM
71.236.221.45
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Yes it's ALWAYS free. Here is the site.
http://megamek.sourceforge.net/
Now to get it, go to the Downloads section and ALWAYS get the most recent "Current Stable" version. Right now that is v0.34.9. You can get the development snapshots, but at the risk of things being weird.
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Karagin
02/16/10 12:06 AM
80.149.45.102
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Noting here simulate being the key word and all the dice rolling is done via the computer thus the random factor how a person rolls or has a habit of rolling goes out the window.
Well you are in the same neighborhood as some our board members like Bob Richter and Nic (Slayer) is in Washington State for school as well. I was at Ft. Lewis for a while myself, now I am stuck in Germany.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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