Christopher_Perkins
01/04/11 06:01 PM
138.162.128.55
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Quote:
Hate to sound like a broken record, but you need the other 4 or 5 books to actually do anything beyond using standard mechs. And again I point out, if TPTB had to put a book that explains to the average and veteran players HOW to use the Core Rule book set, then that should have been a clear indication that things had gotten to complex from the start. Just saying...
What book explains how to use the core book set?
the only thing that i remember is the article at the front that has been commonplace since tactical Handbook explaining whither or not the rules in it were Standard Rules, Advanced Rules, Optional Rules, etc. heck, even Second Edition BattleTech had Standard and Advanced rules.
The execution of the books was abit off, way too much space used on artwork and stories, Tech Manual and Total warfare could easily been in a single cover...
Total Warfare has the standard rules for BattleMechs, Infantry, Vehicles, Support Vehicles, AeroSpace Fighters, ProtoMechs, and... humm, everything else i think of falls under Vehicles or Support Vehicles ...
Main Change was that rules that would not be seen in Tournaments were moved to the Advanced rules book, such as Artillery, Fire, Smoke, Etc. while i havn't played an official game since the second martial olympiad, i remember having carried all of the prior core rules books in a back pack just in case someone wanted to try to stump me with some new rule... even then i think i wound up messing up in my favor when someone told me that all Templars had TC... considering that the person was playing Steiner at the time and i was playing Davion...
ermm, the point was that getting all the tournament legal rules into a single book was a good idea.... less to risk loosing or have to carry around...
Beyond that... well, i do not own any of the new books, only the PDFs... theyre much cheaper and I can actually USE them... but that is the same reason that I have not read any of the stories...
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
01/04/11 11:12 PM
178.76.138.173
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BattleTech Primer: How the Core Rulebooks Work is the name of the book. It is a free PDF down load from the official BT website. Seriously if you have to publish a book explaining HOW to use your rule set something should have gone off and said it was time to rethinking the need of core rule books. Nine times out of ten normal players, ie the ones who play maybe two games a month or once a week do not care about tournement legal rules. They are not playing in tournaments, they are playing friendly games with their buddies. So having all of the official tournament rules in one book is pointless for the average player.
As for PDF vs book format, let me know how they work when your PDF reader or lap top doesn't have any power and there are no outlets around to charge them etc...but each to their own on this area as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
01/05/11 10:22 AM
138.162.128.52
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The Core rule books are to make the game accessible and attractive to new players.
They never made any bones about that.
We players that are obsessive about the original rules are not the target market for the new Core rules books. The Target market are the ones that would buy one book and want to be ready for tournaments (New & old) or the ones that wanted to get a fully functuional set without buying 14 or more books off EBay
I loved the last editions of the original core books
BattleTech Master Rules (Revised)
Maximum Tech (Revised) (though for certain things i still had to go back to Tactical Handbook)
AeroTech 2 (Revised)
Combat Operations
as well as Mechwarrior Third Edition and its suppliments
LosTech: The Mechwarriors Equipment Guide
Classic BattleTech (RPG) Companion
Combat Equipment
But they were due to go through another update cycle, and they chose to shake up the structure.
Total Warfare
Tech Manual
Tactical Operations
Strategic Operations
A Time of War (4th edition of RPG)
Interstellar Operations
================
I have all of the old books (back to second edition boxed set) except for the First part of the NAIS 4th Succession War Books (that and the Sword and the Dagger are the only things that I hunt for on E-Bay), and the only book that i regret purchasing was that Hard Backed waste of space that darkened the names of two Real rule books, BattleTech Compendium, and BattleTech Manual: the Rules of Warfare.
Quote:
As for PDF vs book format, let me know how they work when your PDF reader or lap top doesn't have any power and there are no outlets around to charge them etc...but each to their own on this area as well.
i only need the books when i am editing a wiki or researching a post, so why waste the extra money on paper?
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (01/05/11 10:36 AM)
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Karagin
01/05/11 02:31 PM
178.76.138.173
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I know WHO the rules books are aimed at, but you are not seeing the point I am presenting here. IF they have to publish a separate book that explains to these new players as well as older players how the core rules books are to be used, then they should have seen the flaw in the idea of copying WOTC and their revamping of the D&D books into a series of core rule books. Yet they did not, I could go on and point out that this is very similar to old ways of FASA and believing that their stuff did not well the old saying goes stinks, and only want to hear how great things are, also brings to mind how the Romans would always have a midget in the chariot of the return war hero/general reminding him that he was human and subject to mistakes etc...but that should be clear enough given that we have not seen an end to core rule books and now with the publishing of How the Core Rulebooks Work shows that they are not looking at areas they are dropping the ball in. Guess that is to be expected though.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
01/05/11 04:48 PM
138.162.128.54
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New Players seeing the books in the store are not going to have seen a PDF... so the target audience of the PDF are the experienced players that have been using the CBT site and having the same innitil reaction that most of us had... or Whiskey Tango ----
Don't get me wrong... when they drop the ball i am known for going for the jugular... that is one of the reasons that i am persona non-grata for life over there
but changing of the Core books is nothing new, and has been an ongoing process since the beginning
First Core
BattleTech Second Edition Box
City Tech
AeroTech
Second Core
BattleTech Manual: the Rules of Warfare
Third Core
BattleTech Compendium
Tactical Handbook
etc.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Karagin
01/05/11 06:17 PM
178.76.138.173
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Uhmm new players find out more about the game on line and from the XBOX games and the PC games, not seeing large number going into gaming stores or comic stores and seeing stuff first. Also no novels means another possible group of new players is ignored.
I know the rules change Chris, got it, listen to what I am saying, we did not need 5 or more rule books, not at the prices they are asking, we needed two or three COMPLETE books that put all the parts in the right order and allowed you have basic, advanced etc...levels in easy to use, easy to read, straight to the point couple of books, NOT a set of books that need their own guide to use or endless pages of errata and countless hours of forum related Q&As explain what should have been clearly explained to start with. If folks are asking questions and tell them they don't follow or understand or see the reason this rule or that rule etc...then that too should be a clear sign that something is wrong, time to re-think things. BUT they don't seem to see or understand that. Which what I am trying to get across to you.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Christopher_Perkins
01/05/11 09:23 PM
24.125.16.116
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Quote:
Uhmm new players find out more about the game on line and from the XBOX games and the PC games, not seeing large number going into gaming stores or comic stores and seeing stuff first.
just means that the market of players looking for new games is shrinking
Quote:
Also no novels means another possible group of new players is ignored.
umm, what?
nonsequeter
not that i disagree... more like where did that come from?
Quote:
we needed two or three COMPLETE books that put all the parts in the right order and allowed you have basic, advanced etc...levels in easy to use, easy to read, straight to the point couple of books
well, yeah... actually.... i used the term BattleTech Encyclopedia the first time that someone brought up what the rules books should be like... the other thing that i brought up was coverless modules that would go into notebooks
I definately would not have wasted space on stories
As to Eratta... That is always going to be a fact of life in publishing of games..
and there are always going to be people that do not understand a rule or read it differently from the way it is published...
the thing that angered me the most is that the mods over there often figured that they knew more about the BattleTech universe and rules than the rest of us... particularly the incident where one of them told some one in the Ask the PM board that Hull Down rules only applied to when a vehicle was in a prepared position and al but stated that because i brought up what hull down was in the real world it could not Possibly be that... so what if that was the incident that made it impossible to call a ruleing into question in the same thread...
the only thing that i asked of them was to be right, and if wrong, be willing to admit it.... "the rule could be read that way, so it will be changed so that is not a possible interpetation" was all too commonly the responce to calling them into question
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (01/06/11 03:40 PM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/07/11 01:15 PM
184.232.242.56
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Quote:
the thing that angered me the most is that the mods over there often figured that they knew more about the BattleTech universe and rules than the rest of us... particularly the incident where one of them told some one in the Ask the PM board that Hull Down rules only applied to when a vehicle was in a prepared position and al but stated that because i brought up what hull down was in the real world it could not Possibly be that... so what if that was the incident that made it impossible to call a ruleing into question in the same thread...
the only thing that i asked of them was to be right, and if wrong, be willing to admit it.... "the rule could be read that way, so it will be changed so that is not a possible interpetation" was all too commonly the responce to calling them into question
Sorry but they had it right. Being hull down is where something is in a prepared defensive position.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull-down
In modern armoured warfare, hull-down is a position taken up by an armoured fighting vehicle (AFV) such that its hull (the main part of the vehicle) is behind a crest or other raised ground, but its turret (or a superstructure or roof-mounted weapon) is exposed. This allows it to observe and fire upon the ground ahead, while the hull is protected from enemy fire behind hard cover. A hull-down AFV is said to be in defilade. Taking advantage of hull-down positions is an element of tactical movement.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Christopher_Perkins
01/07/11 02:19 PM
138.162.128.55
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Quote:
Sorry but they had it right. Being hull down is where something is in a prepared defensive position.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull-down
In modern armoured warfare, hull-down is a position taken up by an armoured fighting vehicle (AFV) such that its hull (the main part of the vehicle) is behind a crest or other raised ground, but its turret (or a superstructure or roof-mounted weapon) is exposed. This allows it to observe and fire upon the ground ahead, while the hull is protected from enemy fire behind hard cover. A hull-down AFV is said to be in defilade. Taking advantage of hull-down positions is an element of tactical movement.
That wikipedia article does not limit hull down to prepared defensive positions...
true you can prepare a position to give you the same tactical advantages by digging vehicle trenches, but you can go hull down by using natural features such as canals (mmm, make that river or creek - canals not natural  ), or even the military crest of a hill.
In prepared Definsive Position - Hull Down, Turret Down, Hide
Cresting a Hill - Hull Down, Turret Down, Hide
etc.
The "Ruleing" from the mod answering a serious question from someone else stated exclusively that ONLY prepared positions could provide "Hull Down", and conversely, that natural positions (such as hill tops) could not.
for this I "suggested" that he read the rule as published than look at the real world thing that the rule is based on.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
Edited by Christopher_Perkins (01/07/11 02:42 PM)
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Christopher_Perkins
01/11/11 01:20 PM
138.162.128.52
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I can see what is published in Solaris VII Boxed Set, Solaris: The Reaches, MechWarriors Guide to Solaris VII, and Map Pack:Solaris VII... this is a question about origins, not Published end state.
Do you know whither or not the maps were originally drawn at
*1/285th scale without a hex grid
*1/285th scale with a hex grid (I.E. 10 meter hexes/3 hexes is 30 meters)
*the scale that it was published in Solaris VII Boxed Set (4 hexes = 30 meters)
The Reason that I ask is that 4 inches {rounded} for 30 meters is 1/285th scale, and because of this, i get the sneaking suspision that the Solaris VII boxed set started life as Mineratures Rules...
have you heard any thing anectdotal from those that were at FASA when the first box was published that gives what it was originally intended to be?
Can the Steiner Arena be scaled any larger than 4x7.5 m hex = 30 m and still fit into its footprint on the Solaris City map as printed, 1x30 m hexes would be four times the size... Of course it is possible that they altered the scale of the large city map if the Steiner Arena map was originally scaled to the standard 1/900th map scale and they decided to go with the appx 1/225th scale published (1/285th scale would be 1.036" and they increased the hex size to better fit the base.)
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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Cray
01/11/11 03:15 PM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
The Reason that I ask is that 4 inches {rounded} for 30 meters is 1/285th scale, and because of this, i get the sneaking suspision that the Solaris VII boxed set started life as Mineratures Rules...
An observation: You tend to find all sorts of patterns and equations that don't exist in BT. Also, at the time, minis weren't nearly as well supported as in later rules.
Quote:
have you heard any thing anectdotal from those that were at FASA when the first box was published that gives what it was originally intended to be?
A more exciting, close-and-personal version of regular BT combat.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Christopher_Perkins
01/11/11 06:03 PM
138.162.128.55
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Quote:
An observation: You tend to find all sorts of patterns and equations that don't exist in BT.
A counter observation... After I expain my self (arderous process for all concerned - for that i do apologise... and it still happens.. much to my chagrin, q.v. hull down above) you tend to use one or two of my observations against others when the topic comes up again (economy), or state that what i saw was the original way and decisions were made to alter it for various reasons including play balancing and changing it up a bit (Bar) {which meant that the bones of the pattern were there to see even if the BV of the armor is one of the only unaltered remaints}...
Lyric in my mind
"Oh lord, Please don't let me
be misunderstood"
ohh heck, read my wiki profile...
Quote:
Also, at the time, minis weren't nearly as well supported as in later rules.
exactly why a hypothetical game that started life as a Mintratures/Terrain Rules system would be turned into a map based system.
I.e. "We've put the effort into it this far, but we do not think that there will be a market for it as-is, so lets change it."
If it was going to be maps all the way, then I would have thought that they would do 10 meter hexes/ 3.33 second turns.
(Through the OZ annex...) 4 inches is how long a LT-MOB-25 Minerature is, that is also 3 BT Map Hexes.
Quote:
A more exciting, close-and-personal version of regular BT combat.
yes it was
They made some interesting decisions... like keeping the full BT damage for each shot with delays rather than splitting up the damge for the number of possible shots in the 2.5 second turns in comparison with the 10 second turns... granted, makes it easier in RW comparison, and saves having to do .5 damage MG & AC/2 shots. However, how it alters the Balancing is one of the few valid complaints that I have seen about the Boxed Set's System.
Christopher Robin Perkins
It is my opinion that all statements should be questioned, digested, disected, tasted, and then either spit out or adopted... RHIP is not a god given shield
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