Dislodging infantry in an urban environment...

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Retry
03/19/14 01:15 PM
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I will make this quick. The enemy has occupied your city and stationed many BA and conventional platoons in it to defend yourself. You could, of course, blast the buildings to oblivion, but you don't want to cause undue harm to the city. So, what are your options?

I can only think of two atm. One, you send your own infantry in the building to wipe them out. Two, you suicidally ram a small vee or mech into the building and fire your weapons from within.
CrayModerator
03/19/14 06:30 PM
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Do you have more infantry than the defenders? Or can you achieve locally superior numbers?

Given equal firepower per squad/platoon, superiority in numbers has more than a linear benefit. It's more like a squared benefit because their firepower drops proportionally faster than yours.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/19/14 06:38 PM
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Defenders always have the advantage and even more so if there are built in defenses.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KamikazeJohnson
03/19/14 07:02 PM
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Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey writes:

Defenders always have the advantage and even more so if there are built in defenses.



In theory, 'Mechs and tanks would neutralize things like gun emplacements, and help even up the numbers if the defending infantry have superior numbers.

Plus, in a real-world scenario, a defending force reduced to only infantry would likely withdraw.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/19/14 07:30 PM
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Not necessarily. There are lots of factors that would have to be considered.

A highly defensible position with anti-armor missiles and good snipers in their possession would argue for them to stay put.

Also it could be such an important tactical or strategical position that it is way to important to let it fall to the enemy or its to important to the enemies tactical or strategical plans to let the enemy possess it.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
03/19/14 07:36 PM
66.27.181.1

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that isn't always the case kj. Some infantry would die in place. Most that are caught would not want to deal with the torture that alot of countries would do. No matter what the government says.

Part of the answer comes down to what is expendable. Some buildings would require hand to hand combat, such as a nuclear power plant, or gas refinery, unless you want a large explosion. Given that, some attackers would make sure that happens if they start to lose.

Being inside the building doesn't mean you will win either. For most people making units in battle tech, infanty are considered less then techs. For alot, there isn't enough infantry to even try to take a building or a city back.

It also depends on how much time you got. If you have time to bring in the right forces to reclaim the city, then you do so. If you don't have time, taking out the infantry might well mean leveling the city.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/19/14 07:44 PM
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There is another option leave the infantry in the city and cut off all military supplies until they leave, surrender, or you can come back and take the city with what you need.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
03/19/14 07:50 PM
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Siege warfare is an option, but that depends on time and a few other things.

If the city has civilians still in it is one problem. There is the chance of air drops for supplies, if you don't own the skys. Another possible problem is reinforcements for the infantry.

But in the normal scenario, blockading it is a way to go as donkey shows.
ghostrider
03/19/14 07:53 PM
66.27.181.1

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this does remind me of something I wanted to ask before.

What powers battle armor?

If you can wait long enough, you should be able to hit when they are out of juice.
Retry
03/19/14 10:04 PM
76.7.236.208

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I think BA have power packs of sorts.

So it looks like, unless you outnumber and outgun your rivals, taking a city full of infantry without doing serious damage to the buildings themselves is a losing proposition?
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/19/14 10:10 PM
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It can be done but its not easy
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
KamikazeJohnson
03/19/14 10:18 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

that isn't always the case kj. Some infantry would die in place. Most that are caught would not want to deal with the torture that alot of countries would do. No matter what the government says.



Naturally it depends on the situation. If the city is mostly evacuated and of little tactical value, the Infantry are best to withdraw, if they can do so safely. If retreat is not an option, or they are well-positioned to keep the enemy occupied until reinforcements arrive, they may fight on.

If the city is full of people, blend into the general population as much as possible, and conduct a guerrilla war.

But general rule is, Infantry should not tangle with 'Mechs on their own if it can be avoided.

"The difference between Theory and Practice is that in Theory, there's no difference between Theory and Practice, but in Practice, there is."
--Yogi Berra
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Retry
03/19/14 10:52 PM
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Shame to the mech that wanders into the path of multiple support golem squads and fails to give them high to-hit numbers. The following rain of missiles makes multiple head hits and consciousness rolls frequent due simply to the sheer number of hits.
Karagin
03/19/14 11:09 PM
70.118.139.48

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Look at some battles like Stalingrad or other fighting in urban areas of WW2 as well as the fighting in Hue during the Tet Offensive in Vietnam. Russian mistakes in Gronzy come to mind as well.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
03/20/14 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Retry writes:

So it looks like, unless you outnumber and outgun your rivals, taking a city full of infantry without doing serious damage to the buildings themselves is a losing proposition?



You can always try to arrange local numerical superiority. Defenders of a city usually have a fairly large area to protect and may be tied down to defend specific urban vitals, while attackers can concentrate on one target at a time.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
BobTheZombieModerator
03/30/14 02:04 AM
184.63.108.73

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You could follow the Mongols and throw dead bodies infested with Yersinia pestis into the city. But then again, biological warfare might be illegal in the 31st century...
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csadn
03/30/14 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Retry writes:

[...]The enemy has occupied your city and stationed many BA and conventional platoons in it to defend yourself. You could, of course, blast the buildings to oblivion, but you don't want to cause undue harm to the city. So, what are your options?



I blast the buildings to bits -- "what I want" does not matter; only "what is" does.

(Note also choice of words -- not "I would", "I do".)
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
ghostrider
03/30/14 04:16 AM
66.27.181.1

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problem is that even nukes are hard to enforce sanctions on. Lets face it. You are at war with the person that is going to enforce sanctions on you.

The use is up to the ruler to decide.

All the so called weapons of mass destruction are illegal. You can blow up a city with a mech and its weapons, but not a huge bomb.
Karagin
03/30/14 10:44 AM
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Lots of things are illegal in war, but the victors write the history books and conduct the war crime trials...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/30/14 01:58 PM
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Okay, let me rephrase. By "you don't want" I basically mean "if you do, game over".
BobTheZombieModerator
03/30/14 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Lots of things are illegal in war, but the victors write the history books and conduct the war crime trials...



True, true...
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ghostrider
03/30/14 03:34 PM
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examples of cities you don't want to destroy.

It is a manufacturing complex with residentials mixed in.
It is a fuel complex with residentials mixed in.
It is a government building complex, like the white house and surrouding support buildings.

Yeah the last one you might want to take it completely out no matter what, but that should give you a better idea on why you don't want to destroy the city.

One good one for mercs is, the area is a depot, and scattered through out it are morsals of tasty things like ammo, armor, weapons, maybe even a complete unit. As long as their is no one around, the enemy carted off several tons of ammo and armor.
Retry
03/30/14 03:41 PM
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Especially when the city is your own.

Taking an occupied city by putting it through the stone age is a bit of a shallow victory.
ghostrider
03/30/14 03:54 PM
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And if it's the organizations leaders summer home, I can imagine what the rest of your career would be. There are latrines across the innersphere that need cleaning. Guess who will be doing it?
Karagin
03/30/14 05:55 PM
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You may not want to destroy it but sometimes that happens and things destroyed can be rebuilt.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/30/14 09:50 PM
172.56.16.177

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Yea what ever civilians survives has a guaranteed job of rebuilding the city.

You have your city back, you have lots of propaganda to use of why they should pay even higher taxes, and you have a 0% unemployment rate. Is there a down side?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
03/30/14 09:58 PM
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Not really given how evil the other side was to make a stand in the city and how they destroyed it...all pluses and great propaganda for the war effort.

Look what the Evil and Immoral Jade Falcons did to (insert what ever city)! Join now to prevent this from happening again! See your local recruitment office!

Or

Buy War Bonds! (shows crying 5 year holding a teddy bear with recently recapture and destroyed city on what ever planet) TO STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN!
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
BobTheZombieModerator
03/30/14 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Not really given how evil the other side was to make a stand in the city and how they destroyed it...all pluses and great propaganda for the war effort.

Look what the Evil and Immoral Jade Falcons did to (insert what ever city)! Join now to prevent this from happening again! See your local recruitment office!

Or

Buy War Bonds! (shows crying 5 year holding a teddy bear with recently recapture and destroyed city on what ever planet) TO STOP THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN!



Hahaha! That's great!
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ghostrider
03/31/14 02:13 AM
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surviving civilians having a job to rebuild? I think you don't have an idea of people. I'm a whatever, not a carpenter. Why would I try to rebuild the city? I'm too damn important to do so. I will live on unemployment or move before picking up a hammer and getting dirty.

Duh? waza hamar?


And with somethings, how to you rebuild a facility on a large crater?
Do you think the government would spend the money to rebuild in that location again?
Karagin
03/31/14 06:38 AM
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Actually they would, since the people are there and what ever put the city there to start with is most likely still there.

They rebuilt Hiroshima and Nagasaki right on top of the old city...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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