His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/17/15 04:11 PM
172.56.20.160
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What are the current rules where infantry interacts with battle mechs?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Firestarter
01/17/15 04:28 PM
24.94.45.124
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Yeah they die.
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Firestarter
01/17/15 04:28 PM
24.94.45.124
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Sorry thats not really an answer I should not have posted that.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/17/15 05:48 PM
172.56.21.219
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Quote:
Firestarter writes:
Yeah they die.
I dont think battlemechs are that easy for infantry to defeat!
There has been some comments here about that infantry not being so easy for mechs to kill anymore but I don't know the current rules since I dont have the latest rules books.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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KamikazeJohnson
01/17/15 06:29 PM
24.114.25.18
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There's a chart in Total Warfare which outlines the damage done by each type of weapon. Small and Medium Lasers now do 1 dmg, Pulse Lasers do 2 additional dmg. Heavy weapons like PPCs and AC/20s can do 3-4 dmg. Pretty much only MGs, Flamers, and Small Pulse Laser do significant damage.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
01/17/15 08:48 PM
75.80.239.165
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So basically all the battles that had infantry in the old day would have turned out different with the new rules. A mech like an awesome would never be able to defeat an infantry company in heavy woods. And even worse city fighting.
I didn't know the damage ranges, but several times it was mentioned that they made infantry hard to beat with anything energy weapons equipped. Even an LBX cannon doesn't do much against them.
This would seem to imply you would have to destroy a city or sent in your own infantry to take it. Your mechs and tanks would be nothing more then targets.
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KamikazeJohnson
01/17/15 10:24 PM
24.114.25.18
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
So basically all the battles that had infantry in the old day would have turned out different with the new rules. A mech like an awesome would never be able to defeat an infantry company in heavy woods. And even worse city fighting.
I didn't know the damage ranges, but several times it was mentioned that they made infantry hard to beat with anything energy weapons equipped. Even an LBX cannon doesn't do much against them.
This would seem to imply you would have to destroy a city or sent in your own infantry to take it. Your mechs and tanks would be nothing more then targets.
Just make sure a suitable portion of your force is equipped with MGs and SPLs. It is unfortunate that the rules change means that many canon events now strain believability...Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/18/15 02:09 AM
172.56.10.212
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
As it should be. I never liked the rules where a mech could wipe out hundreds of infantrymen within minutes.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/18/15 05:10 AM
75.80.239.165
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Honestly, the entire history of the innersphere would be different now. There were so many times that simple militia would have done more damage to an attacker, that they would not have been able to advance without repairs. The whole kurita drive into davion would have turned out different.
And this is not saying anything about their rct's. And scenrio packs like infantry being tossed against the invading clans.
I do agree ones heavy armor for infantry came out they should not have died that easily, but honestly. A single laser should cut thru flesh and bone without a problem when it destroys armor that was meant to handle the abuse.
And mechs like the urban mech are useless against infantry. A single platoon of 28 men would destroy and urbanmech. The urban mech doing a whole 2 points of damage, vs the 7 to 14 points for the infantry. And that would be foot infantry. Motorized or jump would kill it quicker.
Partisan or rebel units would actually make mech warriors afraid to enter forests and such to search for them. Merc units would not have been so hot to do it either. I would love for those in charge to refight their battles with the new rules and see just how different the innersphere would be, and how much the clans would have lost instead of rolling over the innersphere with only infantry defenses. The elementals would have been used a hell of a lot more.'
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/18/15 06:52 AM
172.56.11.65
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All they would have to do is say that the mechs had supporting infantry and that the mechwarriors got all the glory in the battles and that the infantries roll was just out right ignored.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
01/18/15 05:24 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
I disagree. Every appearance of infantry in novels and BattleCorps fiction had them surviving impossible odds whereas pre-Total Warfare rules would turn entire platoons into pink mist in a couple of shots of any BFG. The classic Gray Death Legion trilogy is a good example where infantry died at the speed of plot, not the speed of rules. TW brought the infantry death rate into line with fiction.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/18/15 05:27 PM)
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KamikazeJohnson
01/18/15 09:38 PM
207.161.146.219
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Quote:
Cray writes:
Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
Infantry are now far tougher and more dangerous than is stated or implied by...well, pretty much any BT writings...
I disagree. Every appearance of infantry in novels and BattleCorps fiction had them surviving impossible odds whereas pre-Total Warfare rules would turn entire platoons into pink mist in a couple of shots of any BFG. The classic Gray Death Legion trilogy is a good example where infantry died at the speed of plot, not the speed of rules. TW brought the infantry death rate into line with fiction.
But in the examples you're referring to, you'tr dealing with "Hero" characters, those who routinely "survive impossible odds"...it's what makes them worth writing about. I was referring to the millions of nameless, faceless schmucks who get mown down by the battalion every time they so much as smell a 'Mech, known to history only as Battle statistics. Ok, so I can't get specific here, due to my shamefully limited reading, but I recall some of the older rulebooks and sourcebooks talking about the relative weakness of Infantry on the battlefield.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
01/18/15 11:23 PM
75.80.239.165
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Most militia were created to slow down an enemy in order to bring in the defenders mechs, sometimes from off world or even out of system.
Most mechs enjoyed engaging infantry due to their relative lack of firepower and they die quickly. With the newer rules, it is VERY possible a mech like a spider would die when fighting infantry that it could not keep it's distance from, suce as heavy woods.
As I said with the rct's The new rules would allow the infantry to be better then tanks, and even rival the 'all mighty' battle mechs. Crits wouldn't be removed from vehicles or even lessened, but with this, infantry would annihilate alot of main battle tanks like the dreaded demolisher. The ontos would fall pretty easily as well, since it might do a whole 8 points if all 8 medium lasers hit. Wow.
Both tanks make the 'kings' of the battlefield sweat when spotted, even though they might be out of range and can't do much.
If I recall someone stating it, missles aren't much more effective, meaning the srm carrier would probably die from an infantry platoon without much of a problem.
And Cray. Novels do not follow rules most of the time. They seem to run more of the rpg version of the game that allows a single infantry man to damage a mech, were last I checked, the rules did not allow it. Using the gdl as an example. In days of heros, alex tagets the arm of a battle master. No targeting computers on his mech, but hits with both arm mounted medium lasers. How is this possible, when the battle master was moving? Also, most novels have the mech pilot being able to make shots with a rifle, not even a sniper could to and take out a mech with a single shot. Not to mention stupid logic that says an srm infantry unit only does 14 points of damage with 28 men in it. Ammo carrying is an excuse but that would mean only 7 soldiers using an srm, and that does not cover the ones they show have 2 missles in it.
Another good example of novels obliterating the rules would be cassie southern from camachies caballeros. Single handedly she takes out a locust. Not the fact the mg's should rip her up before she gets close, or the medium laser doesn't vaporize her at range, but she stops and waves to get the pilot to follow her. Nothing in the rules would come close to explaining how the mech didn't make a pink mist out of her.
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ghostrider
01/18/15 11:28 PM
75.80.239.165
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Hell, Kai Allard, someone that never had elemental armor training until he was forced to join up with the jade falcons during comstars operation scorpian. He used it better then those that had been using it for 20 plus years. This is clan warriors we are talking about. Even with their skills sliding, that would be like me jumping into a combat fighter and out performing the trainers without know much of the controls.
They make good stories, but none of it based in the rules of the game.
Hell, the rules don't really tell you how to evade the enemy when you eject. That should be run as a single infantry unit, being up to the enemy wether you leave the field alive or not. Or even free or captured.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/19/15 12:27 AM
172.56.40.130
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Well since a single infantryman can take out a M1A2 main battle tank with a TOW missile I have no problem with 28 infantrymen taking out a mech or tank.
You don't defend your tank with the main gun from enemy infantry troops. You defend it from enemy infantry troops with your own infantry troops.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
01/19/15 02:39 AM
75.80.239.165
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The point is, the game went from a demolisher wiping out infantry units with a volley to now wasting every last shot and not being able to kill one. Not all units have infantry with them, and honestly an assault that doesn't intend to hold ground probably won't.
Now with vehicle crits it is possible the a single rifleman could destroy a tank with one shot. Unlikely, but possible. That same rifleman has less chance, though a small one to wipe out a mech as well. It should not be anywhere as routine as the newer rules suggest.
The issue is when dealing with weapons that are designed to rip apart metal plates and such, should do scare damage to someone in even flak armor. The elemental armor from the clans changed that. A simple quick sweep of a laser should kill more infantry then a single person. Even a small laser. Novels are canon supposedly, but there were a few to suggest an anti personal mode to energy weapons that pulsed the normal lasers as a lower power setting to do just that. I believe is was in the fedcom civil war for one of them.
I am saying the whole history of the innersphere would be very different had they had these rules in effect when they came out with 3025 items. More then a few scenario packs had infantry in them, and they relied on them dieing quickly from the bad boys with energy weapons. Overheating an awesome to kill a single infantry platoon is rediculous.
Now, when the tank fires back, does it kill more then one person in a spread out unit? The main gun, not the machine guns.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/19/15 11:30 AM
172.56.10.198
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Mech and vehicle weapons are designed to do massive amounts of damage in small concentrated spots to penetrate hardened armor plating. That kind of damage does not do much to large numbers of small bags of hamburger spread out all over the place.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
01/19/15 08:37 PM
75.80.239.165
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I understand that. Problem is they went to far the opposite direction. How many infantry die when a battleship shell goes off in their area? Explosives are supposed to be effective against lightly armored targets. I don't mind the gauss rifle killing one maybe 2 soldiers since it is basically a singe bullet shot.
Auto cannons are supposed to fire a burst of rounds and with the 'scatter' from the recoil do more damage to infantry. Or so goes the theory on why ultra cannons have issues.
I would think they could be akin to a large slow firing machine gun.
I agree that it should not kill like it used to.
Energy weapons are different on how they do damage. I do not see why you couldn't just sweep the beams across the field to kill infantry. As I said, they are not carrying battle mech armor on them, so would not need to have the length of time needed to kill them like a mech would.
And that is not even saying anything about splash damage from missiles, and even cannon fire.
Artillery has no problems, yet isn't the cannon ammo the same type? Just doesn't go as far?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/20/15 09:03 AM
172.56.16.66
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Lasers fire a very powerful and very short burst of energy that is why it only kills one solder. Now pulse lasers fires mutable bursts of lower powered energy that is why it can kill more infantrymen. It has to do with the length of time the laser is actually actively firing.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
01/20/15 08:08 PM
75.80.239.165
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Setting a lower power output would allow the laser to fire longer. But as I said, several of the novels have stated there is an anti infantry setting to them, allowing for use against more then just one person.
Without anything like this, the entire canon history of the innersphere would not be as it is today. Most units being used are mech forces for assault with tanks being used as back up. In a city, with a regiment of intantry running around, even an assault company would fail to take it. They would fall back with heavy losses do to the simple fact that mg's aren't really standard issue. Flamers tend to be on lighter mechs. Though it may explain why the original canon mechs tended to have more then later models.
The new rules swings the imbalance to the other side.
And trying to say that infantry units are on the edges of the hex, well that is using the rules against themselves. I would say that 2 separate infantry units adjacent to each other on the borders are one clumped unit since I say they are in the middle of a new hex pattern to avoid cheating. But that is going too far the other way.
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Retry
01/24/15 10:45 PM
76.7.225.145
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I'd expect a city defended by a regiment of infantry to be difficult to take over, considering that a regiment consists of roughly one thousand men, or ~40 BT infantry platoons. Big walking things are poor at securing places with little doors, and anti-mech weaponry frequently isn't ideal for non-mech units.(Not exclusively, ofc. See HAGs, LB-X ACs, AP gauss, Vee-scaled plasma weaponry, frag missiles, and all artillery weapons.) If infantry is common, powerful, or both, anti-infantry and infantry-defense capabilities SHOULD be a design consideration for a mech.
Infantry in battletech are kind of weird, in the sense that their weapons are simultaneously powerful and pathetic. A relatively small number of autorifle equipped infantrymen can rip through an assault mech if it foolishly walks into their path, which is hilarious considering that it's a small-arms weapon. But, at the same time, said weapon has a range in BT of under one hundred meters. This is acceptably low for targeting armored units like tanks and mechs, as such small bullets will rapidly lose kinetic energy as they travel and probably shouldn't do significant damage as such for balance and logic purposes. The problem is that they retain the nerfed range brackets for lighter class units such as low armor grade support vehicles, exoskeleton suits, and other infantry platoons, meaning their MECH-Maulers have a humorous effective range that rivals the rifled musket.
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Karagin
01/25/15 12:19 PM
70.118.139.48
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Lets' stop right there, you guys are thinking of line units only, regiments and battalions have three to four line units aka the combat side and one/two units (called companies or troops) that are headquarters and support aka the fuelers, the medics, the mechanics the supply folks etc...so not all of that thousand soldiers are going to be fighting.
On top of that you forgetting that anti-mech/tank weapons are not included with the normal BT infantry setup, it's added in and thus not that common.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/26/15 01:40 PM
172.56.7.120
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A regiment should have no problem at all taking out unaccompanied mechs or tanks within a city. Not with infantry rifles but with things like satchel charges, grenades, rockets launchers, RPGs, high power rifles, and so on and so forth.
Things like the Panzerfaust, Bazooka, RPG-7, LAW, and other such weapons have been quite affective at anti armor attacks within cities. They take little in the way of extensive training in their use and are extremely cheap to supply to troops. Under a 100m such weapons have a 95% chance of hitting a slow moving target when one knows how to use it and has the time to properly aim the weapon. Within a city few armor assets can keep a range farther than 100m from possible hiding spots of troops that might have such weapons.
The best way to take a city is to send in your infantry and hold back your mechs to take out hardened well defended targets as they are found by your own infantry.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/11/15 02:33 PM
172.56.10.68
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
There's a chart in Total Warfare which outlines the damage done by each type of weapon. Small and Medium Lasers now do 1 dmg, Pulse Lasers do 2 additional dmg. Heavy weapons like PPCs and AC/20s can do 3-4 dmg. Pretty much only MGs, Flamers, and Small Pulse Laser do significant damage.
What damage does MGs, Flamers, and SPLs do to infantry? I don't own TWF to look it up.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/11/15 07:15 PM
76.89.120.217
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I would like to know the spl's myself. As it looks like, all pulse lasers do 3 points. It would be beyond stupid if the small laser does more then the larger ones.
I know you don't have any control over it, so don't think that was directed at you.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/12/15 12:20 AM
172.56.38.153
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I can see why all pulse lasers would do the same amount of damage to infantry no matter the weapons size. There is only so much area that the pulse laser can cover but there is more power behind each laser pulse as the weapon gets bigger.
Look it this way say a small pulse laser would put a hole the size of a dime through a person. That would be quite fatal so kills the trooper. Now a large pulse laser can put a hole the size of the persons head into the trooper again quite fatal. Both attacks are fatal its just that the large pulse laser leaves far less of the body to be scraped up to be put into the body bag. The bigger the weapon the more over kill there is to the person that was hit.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/12/15 03:44 AM
76.89.120.217
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I was referring to the small pulse laser. For some reason, it sounds like it does more damage to infantry then the other ones. This would not make sense. I guess I will have to look in the novels to see where it stated several mechwarriors were using anti personnel mode on the energy weapons.
But anyways, this last bit was about the small pulse.
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CarcerKango
02/12/15 12:51 PM
64.251.51.246
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Well, the Small Pulse I imagine would have a higher fire rate due to the lower amount of power required, and the old Mechwarrior games seem to support this...
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TigerShark
02/12/15 01:18 PM
12.130.166.32
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Infantry are far too strong in modern BT. A single Clan platoon armed with Mauser IIC rifles (what is that, 28 damage/turn max? Average of 15?) can take out any IS 'Mech ever made if they have a decent motive system (jump or mechanized). Unless you specifically build your scenario to deal with these platoons, you're borked.
This isn't even beginning to mention stuff like squad weapons like Heavy Lasers (12 hex range), squad PPC, etc. or puffing up their Anti-Mech skills to a 3 or 2, where they can pop a 'Mech's leg with the greatest of ease.
And all this for the low, low price of under 300 BV. Hell, you could take a 3/4 Mauser 960 Jump Platoon (around 260 BV) and do 19 damage/turn with a 1/1/3 movement profile. And that's in 2750!
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Akalabeth
02/12/15 04:29 PM
64.251.81.66
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I was referring to the small pulse laser. For some reason, it sounds like it does more damage to infantry then the other ones. This would not make sense. I guess I will have to look in the novels to see where it stated several mechwarriors were using anti personnel mode on the energy weapons.
But anyways, this last bit was about the small pulse.
Small Pulse laser does 2d6 damage to infantry. Same as the machine gun.
Flames do 4d6
Light and Heavy Machine gun do 1d6 and 3d6 respectively.
Battletech doesn't make sense. It's a ruleset of exceptions. The SPL does extra damage to infantry because the weapon is normally beyond useless. So it's given an exception to make it worthwhile.
You guys really ought to just pick up the rules so y ou know what's actually happening with the rules and can discuss the finer points that way. The PDF Total Warfare is only 15 bucks on drivethru RPG. Price of a lunch with beer.
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