Unseen Warhammer internal structure modeling project.

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Foxer
01/26/16 09:57 PM
108.44.85.230

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I hunted around for any posting rules about images or the Unseens so smack me if I looked in all the wrong places.

As the title states I've taken the rigged model of the Tomahawk from Vanishing Point's Robotech downloads and am trying to make the WHM-6R 'fit' into it's 'shell'. I'm certain I'm not the only one to look at the Armorcast models, art work, etc and wonder how with a missile that has a tip that big the number of salvo's listed fit in the torso given much less feed to the launcher. Additionally if I ever actually start seriously animating it'll give me internals I can pull from for through armor damage and what not.

I am lucky enough to own the Warhammer poster but I plan on taking it as a suggestion rather than gospel. Especially since most if not all of the posters past and present don't show the myomer bundles leaving them looking like standard motor driven articulation. Plus since they're drawn according to 'rule of cool' instead of thoughts toward actual locomotion and articulation there are some areas like the hip and ankle that leave one wondering how does one turn with that set up.

With that out of the way I've already taken the missile that came in the shoulder launcher and scaled it so that 90 actually do fit in the torso. It's a little short and squat but some might say that about a Hellfire compared to a Amraam. They also fit nicely through the strut to the launcher with room for me to model a rectangular tube from the bin up into the launcher. I've added some rollers along the bottom as a start for a conveyor to carry them up that might become a top and bottom belt with rollers/belt along the side to help keep the missiles positioned and in contact with enough surfaces to keep them moving. I've also thought about a track and hanging 'gripper' but it seems a bit fragile in my mind despite my consideration for those in the bin itself and moving/positioning the missiles in the launcher. I'D post more pictures but without being able to post links yet and with one attachment per post I'll wait to see how this goes over.

I recall that the rules about ammo dumping state that ammunition is loaded from the rear center torso and is ejected out the same. However the poster lists the front portion of the right torso as 'Starboard Magazine Hatch'. As the Tomahawk does have torso mounted missiles in Robotech this is both an existing feature and in all honesty would give excellent access to the bin, shoulder structure and myomer that would elevate/depress the arm, and the Med/small/MG at the lower fore of the torso if nothing winds up jutting over them too much. There is a small vertical depression on the back center, somewhat behind the 'head' actually, that is sized about right to take the missiles and still have room at the bottom for a feed for machine gun ammo if I make that the loading point for the bins. It also makes sense on some level that having a hatch on the thinner rear torso armor where you would not have to open a thick heavy portion of mech every time goes in hand with the thinner protection. Although a security protected hatch release under a flip up panel that activated pistons to open the front torso wouldn't sacrifice any armor protection. What's your two cents? Attachment (299 downloads)
Drasnighta
01/27/16 10:51 AM
198.53.98.65

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I don't particularily want to get too involved, mostly because there is always 20,000% of Artistic license put into "How does it Fit" and "Exploded View" things...

But I do feel to correct one mis-statement:

"Rear Torso" does not equal "Rear Center Torso" - Ammunition is loaded into the "Rear Torso", which if is a right side launcher, would be a right side torso. So that positioning is correct at the very least. A Hit on any of the Rear Torsos would cause a potential Ammunition explosion - probably because you're pissin' missiles...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
ghostrider
01/27/16 01:12 PM
98.150.102.177

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Well part of the reason the warhammer, aka robotechs excalibur mecha, looks mechanical and not myomer driven, is the fact rototech did not use myomers. a few unseen units were the result of a lawsuit, so things don't mesh well to begin with. Then battletechs newer designs don't really take into account real world size for some things. The archer, aka gladiator, has lrm 20 packs in the torsos. Do you really think 120 of those missiles would fit in the torso, which is a single ton of lrm ammo, much less the 2 tons in each torso that is standard.

Also, battletech does not deal with things like weak points except for the 'floating' critical on the hit location table, ie a roll of 2, but it only works for the torsos, not arms or legs. And on those, you need to strip all the armor off them before you get a critical. Makes it easier and quicker to play.

Now a suggestion about trying to place this stuff in an internal structure, have you considered having the ammo bins able to move some while being loaded, ie shift a couple of feet to accept the missiles without having to do it in the heavier structure areas? Use locking pins to keep it in place? You could use that as a reason the missile launcher is down as the bin shifted from a hit, taking the weapon offline. The game does say not all hits destroys multi crit weapons.
This does also cause another question to be asked. With myomers, how does the arm actually flip? A rifleman would be a good example to try to explain. Myomers are very much like human muscles.

Now if you really want an issue with armor and ammunition, The timberwolf/madcat and vulture/maddog from the clan line has the missile open to any hits, as their lrm launchers don't have any covering.

As a side note, except for the clans, the game does not cover how the same weapons can be fitted into different mechs that look completely different, with something that has ONE design, such as the holly missile launchers. One lrm 5 pack is not changed to fit different units, just the brackets that hold it is. Also, in the pictures, the ammo itself is different sizes on different mechs. The Atlas picture is a good example when compared to the archer.
Foxer
01/27/16 07:24 PM
108.44.85.230

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And let's not even mention autocannons! On a side note about the Archer/Spartain the figure/model for it actually does have the rear left and right torsos able to open with the hinge being at the top of the torso. This would defiantly let one access the bins directly and with ghostrider's thought I can see whatever means the missiles are racked in the bin sliding out on...best I can think of is the extension slides on a file cabinet/keyboard shelf or a telescoping piston and track system. I'll defiantly be looking at how that might apply to the Warhammer as I refine the bin and play with the missile routing inside the launcher itself.

Beyond the hurdle of different launchers and missile representations is also the size of the unit and the size of the pilot. Right now I've just left the mech at the size it imported in at. Which with Poser's small generic units means it's currently .1something meters in Max. If you saw something of the pilot and ejection seat that was the first free download I found, the inclusion of the pilot was a nice surprise, When I placed it where I thought was right given the viewport it lined up with a panel/indention that would be perfect for ejecting through. The best I've found for a target height is 10.6 meters and I need to check my history for that page. That's what I get for looking late at night.
Karagin
01/27/16 11:45 PM
72.176.187.91

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Floating crit works all over the mech, unless the rules have changed.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
01/28/16 02:28 AM
98.150.102.177

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Might need to clarify the definition of the floating critical. I may be confusing it, as I thought it was the critical that allowed damage to the internals while there is still armor on the location after the hit.
I think Retry stated it as the thru armor critical.
With the floating critical being defined as such, only the torsos facing the enemy is the target for such. Example would be right side hit, with the location roll of 2 would affect the right torso, where the front/back would affect the center torso.

Now if it means something else, I do apologize for the misunderstanding.

As for autocannons, I left out as you were discussing the warhammer. But using the rifleman as an example, I seriously doubt the shells could be fed into the cannon with the small shoulder (pivot?) that they show for it, and even worse, if the arm is flipped should not work at all. But that is my observation with it. The same thing goes with other weapons on other mechs. The Thorn is a good one for missiles in the torso, yet the shoulder looks like a tooth pick.

The issue is the mechs were not designed for battle techs excessive missile supply. I want to say they only held like 12 missiles total, though only have the sentinals book to get that information from, not the original story books. I want to say the archer/gladiator didn't have any reloads for the missile bays, so logic doesn't work with the picture/stats for battle tech.
Karagin
01/28/16 10:21 AM
72.176.187.91

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We do remember this is a game right? Just asking...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
01/28/16 01:32 PM
98.150.102.177

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Yes, I know I do remember it is a game.
It is a futuristic game that seems to be locked in the dark ages that logic fails in alot of aspects. It is fun to play still.
Games like dungeons and dragons have more logic to them then battle tech, but then they have multiple large books of 'guidelines' they have with them.

The inconsistencies of that logic has me, asking besides the developers saying so, why things are like they are. I understand when it first came out, they were not overly concerned with things like keeping their stories in line with each other, or things like their designs looking like it could really work.
Now 30 years later, they are changing their history to fit the current story line, because they seem to have hit several writer blocks for new ideas. I understand it happens.
I guess the advance in real world technology has caused alot of the issues since people want to know why you can spend millions on a mech, yet you can not make a missile like a cruise missile for cheaper. Or hit a target at ranges over a kilometer. Yes, if you could, then short range weapons are obsolete. But you are talking about hitting a walking barn, not some little thing like a speeding motorcycle dodging your shots. Even their canon approve novels all suggest things like lasers don't require real amounts of time to do their damage. Most are like, the beam grazed the shoulder armor melting it. That does not sound like it needs to be on a specific spot. It sounds more like you can slash a target and do the damage.

Now the project foxer is doing is similar to pictures in the second edition of mechwarrior role playing book. With that, some logic is required as you can NOT fit a 40 by 40 foot engine and gyro in a space that is only 10 by 20. It is like putting 20 orcs in a 10 by 10 room with a party to fight.

The developers make the pictures look bad ****, which is fine, but there is a time where matching the pictures to the specifics or stats of the unit needs to happen.
You said it yourself about endosteel and vehicles. It makes no sense why they can use it. The only thing I can think of is artificial limits. They may have gotten away with the rarity of it, had they limited the amount of mechs that used it, but then they needed to stop making new vehicles with fusion engines as they were supposed to be rare.
CrayModerator
01/29/16 12:55 PM
184.89.66.202

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Might need to clarify the definition of the floating critical. I may be confusing it, as I thought it was the critical that allowed damage to the internals while there is still armor on the location after the hit.




Yes. A floating critical is just like a result of a 2 on the standard front hit location chart. You do damage to the armor, but get a chance for a critical.

With the floating critical does is give you a chance to find similar armor weak points all over the 'Mech, like the arms and legs. If you roll 2 (normally a torso hit), then you immediately re-roll the hit location.

The second roll determines where the shot actually hits: arm, leg, head, whatever. After apply damage to the armor normally in the actual hit location, you then get a critical hit chance.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
01/29/16 03:16 PM
98.150.102.177

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when did they change re rolling the location hit?
Both master rules and compendium say apply damage to that section then roll on the critical effects table.
The damage is applied to the torso of the side that is presented just as a roll of 7 on the hit location provides.
I have never seen or heard until recently, you re roll the location you did the damage to or anywhere other then the torso for a possible critical.
Is this the newer rules?
ghostrider
01/29/16 03:20 PM
98.150.102.177

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A result of 2 may inflict a critical hit. Apply damage to the armor in that section in the normal manner but the attacking player also rolls once on the #Critical Hits Table.
This is in the wiki here under hit locations table. It stats torso location, then underneath says (critical).

Please let me know in which rule set they changed this.
Or was it something the developers did and didn't fix a typo?
CrayModerator
01/30/16 02:45 PM
72.189.109.30

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

when did they change re rolling the location hit?



It is an optional rule introduced in MaxTech in 1997. It is not a standard tournament rule in either BattleTech Master Rules or Total Warfare.

Today, you'd have to invoke floating crits from Tactical Operations if your players wanted to use it. In ye olden days of the last millennium, you'd need to invoke the optional rule from MaxTech.

And if you don't like floating crits, it's not an issue. Standard rules for rolls of 2 on hit locations haven't changed since 1984.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
01/30/16 08:19 PM
98.150.102.177

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Never seen the max tech rule sets. Just the standard ones.
And I do like the floating crits, for mechs, but think the vehicle ones are too harsh.

It is nice to know I didn't forget all the rules. Just some of them.

I think the crits for the mechs was to cover the things like ammo loading panels and heat sink vents, without listing each individually, as some would suggest a variant wouldn't have an mg bay for one of the warhammer variants that removed them from the mech.

And that does bring up an issue with the internal designs for mechs. Variants using different weapons packages.
Just because the weight of an srm 2 launcher is one ton and uses one crit, does not mean it would replace a medium laser spot easily in units that look like they are shoe horning items into them. Hell, even pods would run into some issues like this.

The idea that an ac 20 uses like 8 spots, yet the longer barreled gauss rifle with it's capacitor bank uses the same space as a ppc. The coolant circulation alone would mean more for the ppc, yet the barrel does made you wonder how they can use it in a torso without the heavy duty servo motors for fine adjustments. Yet the ac 5 is the same amount of ciriticals. But then I guess the later weapons were put together to avoid over complicating the whole scheme of things.
Foxer
01/30/16 11:41 PM
108.44.85.230

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Next pic I throw up will be better since it won't be wireframe. Finally remembered I can go through and hide polygons so they don't render. More years working with Cinema 4D than Max.

Now that you've got me thinking about variants I had do do a quick search for some things I remembered. I found in Classic Battletech Master Rules, Customization and Retrofitting where it talks about how "One cannot simply strap on lasers" and the need to reconfigure and balance the structure of the mech. I even want to think you could work up the man hours for a tech character in the RPG to dinker around with such special projects. Now I want to check the Solaris materials for what they might have on the subject.
ghostrider
01/31/16 12:22 PM
98.150.102.177

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Sad things is, omni mechs kind of threw that concept out the window. Though the pods do need to have some organization to them. I would suspect some items have to be in the middle of the pod, as the shape would not fit in the border area. Granted, all weapons in the clans should be exact copies of each other, no matter what factory makes them.

Though the vulture/maddog seems to be something that their own fluff seems to contradict this. It said when they use the dual gauss rifles it looks so different the innersphere had a hard time figuring out what mech it was.

Still. Something so radical like the kuritan's archer dropping the mls for 2 large lasers just changes the unit dramatically. So does their refit of the Charger mech as well. And Liao putting jump jets on a crusader had to be a nightmare trying to rework the internal structure and workings to get them to work properly.
This makes me wonder how alot of these modifications done by companies is done so often, yet the game makes it sound like it takes years to design a mech that works. Someone that isn't an engineer, should not be able to just alter mechs on a whim, but it does seem like it happens alot in the game. They are techs most of the time, but something is not right. And more then a few manufacturers seemed to spring up around this business.

Now as for your doing the internals for the mechs and getting into varients, this might change some ideas of how the internals might have to be different on the original. Heat sink placement may have to be changed to fit things in the unit, so modifications will be more difficult then people think. The idea of replacing a missile launcher with a laser doesn't end with just the launcher. The ammo bin and ammunition feeder needs to be addressed as well. Redundant power circuits and more coolant lines need to be run, as a launcher can use the convection(?) style of cooling. Basically the heat will transfer to the cooler areas.
Now that I am thinking about it, that would mean cooling vents might have to be moved to new areas as well. For a good example, the idea of a front wheel drive car verses a rear wheel drive car might help get the thought across. Not only is the engine bay changed but the rear axle and differential area is changed as well.
Damn. I hurt myself thinking again. Thanks alot.
Foxer
02/02/16 10:42 PM
108.44.85.230

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Here's a screen shot from the back. The purple cylinders are the rollers for the belts with the mounts I've got done in red near the bin. I still haven't punched a hole through into it since it's still something of just a placeholder shape. I'll be cutting the end and/or adding another bend to try and get the missiles delivered upright so they can be laid over and slid either side to the launch tubes. Attachment (207 downloads)


Edited by Foxer (02/02/16 10:45 PM)
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