Mania Domini equipment

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Keith
06/24/16 10:47 PM
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Question- was the manai Domin equipment only able to be used by w.o.b.? Or could normal pilots use it too?
FrabbyModerator
06/25/16 05:32 AM
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Depends. Their 'Mechs and vehicles typically had no regular cockpit but required certain cybernetic implants such as Machina Domini interface to use.
I can imagine though that you could salvage, retrofit and pilot such a 'Mech as a non-cyborg; but it may be too complicated/expensive to be a viable option.
Keith
06/25/16 08:00 AM
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Yea that's what I was afraid of. Like their fighters and was looking at the role-playing game but I didnt want to run a w.o.b. character because I don't really care to be a cyborg. So was hoping to just be able to use the small cockpit rules. But hey guess I can make him a rich nobles technophile son with nothing but time and money or something. 😃
FrabbyModerator
06/25/16 03:22 PM
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Yeah, that always works out like the brothers Kell!
happyguy49
07/01/16 08:33 AM
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I don't see a lot of 32nd century powers using the "creepier" Manei Domini equipment. They were like the Nazi's cranked up to 11. This is from the wiki about the only "inner sphere" protomech pilots (who have to be physically tiny)

"The only Inner Sphere faction known to have moved beyond theoretical discussions was the Word of Blake, overcoming the control and pilot size issues with the development of an advanced pilot interface based off their Vehicular Direct Neural Interface technology, encasing a limbless Manei Domini in a life-support apparatus that was then sealed within a ProtoMech, the pilot maintained via intravenous nutrients and recycled biomatter."

Yeesh. Only the wobbies would be evil/insane enough to encase a helpless torso in a war machine like that. I do think other more normal WoB inventions have proliferated, the variable-speed pulse lasers, small cockpits, a couple other things.
ghostrider
07/01/16 11:46 AM
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This sounds very much like the enhanced imaging system the clans used during the time of the cartoon.
Did it stem from that?
Or is it a new attempt to keep a warriors ability to pilot a mech short?

And a point with the small cockpits. Why would you want to use a system that penalizes the pilot using it?
Are wob pilots THAT good?
happyguy49
07/05/16 08:17 AM
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Small cockpit's only real downside is a +1 to piloting skill rolls. The upside is it weighs only two tons (instead of three) and frees up a head crit. (small cockpit needs only one life support crit.)

So, it depends on your design. For instance, a melee-oriented mech shouldn't use it as the +1 makes it less likely to land a physical attack, but on a fire support mech the extra ton and crit can certainly help.
Reiter
07/13/16 03:48 PM
45.48.53.140

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And that is why I hate munchkin tech beyond 3050ish clan era. Small cockpit to give you one extra ton, XXXLLLL light engine, Ferro-fibrous hardend armor that acts like deflector shields from star trek (mixing up all the armor and that wierd shield I seen in the wiki against PPC into one as a joke).

Meh, most of it just doesn't interest me...might as well just make make up your own rules for a 100 ton mech that has 1 ton of everything combined and 99 tons of pod space, 12 RAC Ultra Gauss rifles that shoot 16 shoots in one turn with 64 shots per ton while taking up 1 crit (and gun doesn't explode, creates 1 heat for all 12 shots), E1eventy bi11ion internal heat sinks with zero crits taken up, and you get the point....why use so many different rules, when you can make up your own while using the little mech figures to move about the map. Just makes the game less interesting.
ghostrider
07/13/16 05:30 PM
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I agree alot with that statement Reiter. Might as well play robotech doing mega damage with the weapons with normal weapons doing absolutely no damage to the robots armor.

Without worrying about money, the ultra units come into existence which goes back to the arena argument. In real life, no one would attempt to build some of this stuff as it is too expensive for a single unit. Build a freaking battalion of older tanks and take out the unit without having to worry about losing the same amount of money. And that does bring up, why not cruise missiles. Cheaper then a mech is. A good warhead will guarantee the targets destruction without worries the enemy might be able to salvage the equipment and use it against you.

Though you missed the ultimate killing weapons. The HAG RACS with ultra gauss rifles on it. Might as well use a dropship with a mass accelerator on it and destroy the military base from orbit.

And why not have ferrous fiber hardened armor. You have basic cloaking technology as well.
Retry
07/15/16 12:39 PM
68.103.19.152

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Okay, enough. These techno-phobic rants are becoming stale and exhausting to read.

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And that is why I hate munchkin tech beyond 3050ish clan era. Small cockpit to give you one extra ton, XXXLLLL light engine, Ferro-fibrous hardend armor that acts like deflector shields from star trek (mixing up all the armor and that wierd shield I seen in the wiki against PPC into one as a joke).



The Small Cockpit also has fatigue issues due to its uncomfortable seating arrangement which can be simulated in a strategic campaign, making it a hassle for extended fights.

XXXLLLL and FFHA is nothing more than a rant.

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Meh, most of it just doesn't interest me...might as well just make make up your own rules for a 100 ton mech that has 1 ton of everything combined and 99 tons of pod space, 12 RAC Ultra Gauss rifles that shoot 16 shoots in one turn with 64 shots per ton while taking up 1 crit (and gun doesn't explode, creates 1 heat for all 12 shots), E1eventy bi11ion internal heat sinks with zero crits taken up, and you get the point....why use so many different rules, when you can make up your own while using the little mech figures to move about the map. Just makes the game less interesting.



I like the 3025 era, but for me 3050+ technology beats Medium Laser Meta any day of the week. Not everyone playing from the 3050-3145 region is spamming 100 tonne Custom Daishis, and the 100-bracket has its own set of limitations (chiefly mobility and extremely hefty jump-jet costs) that can be exploited by even some native designs as long as the battlefield is slightly larger than a teacup.

And the rest of it is, not surprisingly, a rant based purely upon some weapons and systems becoming a little bit lighter and more efficient.

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I agree alot with that statement Reiter.



I had a feeling; his post almost sounded like you!

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Without worrying about money, the ultra units come into existence which goes back to the arena argument. In real life, no one would attempt to build some of this stuff as it is too expensive for a single unit.



Real Life disagrees with you.

Take for example the F-35, a rather new U.S. multirole aircraft with some stealth capabilities. If the early 21st Century was a Battletech game, this is the type of fighter that would be accused of Munchkinry by players still rockin' their Cold War T-54s and MiG-17s. Its development cost alone, without any units produced, is around 1.5 trillion (your tax dollars at work... *sigh*), and the unit price is estimated to be around 90 to 120 million per piece.

Now look at the still-sexy F-15, an old U.S. workhorse fighter that is now frequently used as a multirole strike craft. Its production cost per unit is less than 30 million, or three-to-four times cheaper than the F-35. The F-15 is still plenty effective against most threats facing it today.

According to your perspective on real life, the F-35 simply shouldn't exist. But it does, and the U.S. plans to purchase around twenty-five hundred of these things. Expensive "super-units" that cost several times that of the average plane is also often more effective than the average plane in the first place, having the survivability and lethality to survive more easily and frequently in a "hot zone" than the cheaper units.

The line connecting this to BT is a bit more flimsy, since the armor-ablating game mechanics and RNG instagibs make it more difficult to achieve the high levels of lethality and survivability for "super units" to stand their own against dozens of Scorpion Tanks and variants. But it still exists in its own way; If you have limited space in your Leopard dropship that already costs 60 million C-bills, you're not doing yourself any favors trying to cut costs at this point by giving it the cheapest Mechs and ASF you can find.

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Build a freaking battalion of older tanks and take out the unit without having to worry about losing the same amount of money.



Firstly, a "freaking battalion of older tanks" is probably going to cost more than an "ultra unit", unless the ultra is sporting something crazy like a HPG or XXL engine, which means you're now talking about at least a couple "ultra units" and probably a Lance at minimum.

Secondly, a "freaking battalion of older tanks" is almost guaranteed to be slower and more clumsy than said lance of "ultra units" that probably sport higher mobility, which in a strategic environment lets the "ultra units" avoid any direct fighting if they so desire.

Finally, a "freaking battalion of older tanks" has a far higher upkeep cost than a mere lance of "ultra units", as you have to pay the tank crew, the maintenance crew, and feed them AND the tanks too if they happen to have an ICE engine or ammo weapons (and since they're just a cheap old battalion, they probably do), which all results in a lengthy and intricate logistics network, which by the way also needs their own source of food and fuel! The "ultra units" probably sport at least a fusion engine (don't require traditional fuel) and some energy weapons (don't require ammo), which considerably eases logistics down to a couple guys and maybe maintenance crew, which could easily be served by a single Cobra VTOL. Which makes the "Ultra Units" actually cheaper in the long run.

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And that does bring up, why not cruise missiles. Cheaper then a mech is. A good warhead will guarantee the targets destruction without worries the enemy might be able to salvage the equipment and use it against you.



Highly misleading.

A standard, generic Urbie costs under 1.5 million C-bills.

A CM-50 Launcher costs .9M with 20k per missile.

A CM-70 Launcher costs 1.25M with 50k per missile.

A CM-90 Launcher costs 2.55M with 90k per missile.

A CM-120 Launcher costs 3M with 120k per missile.

Larger missile launchers costs as much as a light mech itself, and its missiles weigh as much as a heavy mech. The launchers are completely impractical to place on anything smaller than a Dropship. And, to add insult to injury, they won't guarantee your target's destruction even on a direct hit! And I'm not talking about high-tier armors like Reactive and hardened; a stock Urbie is perfectly suited to take one CM-50 hit, and an Atlas can survive a direct CM-120.

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Though you missed the ultimate killing weapons. The HAG RACS with ultra gauss rifles on it. Might as well use a dropship with a mass accelerator on it and destroy the military base from orbit.



Again with this nonsensical superweapons meme, don't you ever get tired of it?

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And why not have ferrous fiber hardened armor.



Probably for the same reason no one has developed an APDSHEATFS round yet. You get something that's not nearly as effective as either.

Thread-Relevant Conclusion:New and Shiny equipment is nothing to get flustered about, even if they're made by crazy cyborg people.


Edited by Retry (07/15/16 01:13 PM)
ghostrider
07/16/16 11:05 AM
66.74.61.223

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The F 35 was made not because it is a good fighter, but because of politics and lobbyist. It is still plagued by the technical issues they had when in the prototype stage.
And the lobbyist as well as others thinking the new shiny things are the best have been trying to shut down the a10. This along with the F 15 and F 18 are the workhorses of the air force. The main thing the 35 has on them is stealth. According to your figures, you can get 4 of the F 15s for the price of an F 35.

As with the small cockpit, it is used because people want to fit the extra weapon or have the extra ton for equipment. Again, the long term affects don't mess with single games. The +1 to piloting is the only drawback most will ever deal with. And even then, it seems to be overlooked for the 'bonus' it gives.

Again, funds means nothing. If you have say 50 million for defense spending on a world, A single unit that can do it all sounds great. Until you find out that single unit can not do much except dominate a single area, not protect the entire planet or even a real full sized city. The little less then a half kilometer cities that the maps deal with is squat. But again real life doesn't isn't shown here. The costs of keeping the battalion and fuel costs would be an issue. It is still cheaper then having a single unit.
A side note here. It is interesting that someone with that single ultra unit never steals it and takes over the planet with it. Love the loyalty of the soldiers.

I do find it funny that it is assumed the battalion would be slow and clumsy against the new unit. Given the cloaking units posted and argued over, this looks to be backwards. I will give you this. The tanks will slowly be destroyed from move crits where the mech won't worry about it.

It is interesting that if it fits certain playing styles, things are fine, but if you suggest it helps the things they don't like, it is the worst idea in the world.

Last for this one. The idea of a cruise missile being used and the costs is kind of funny. The 3025 locust is about 1.5 mil as well. The atlas of that time was over 9 mil. I can take a 2 million dollar cruise missile and take out the locust, atlas and other units in the area with the right ordinance. Might even bag a dropship in the process. Cost for doing so is worth the building emplacement for the launcher or dropship needed to house and use the equipment. No worries about spending 2 mil to destroy the 9 mil atlas, and probably the leader of the forces incoming. Not going to worry about the enemy being able to scavenge parts to fix any damage taken either.
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