To Paint or Not To Paint?

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Karagin
08/27/14 11:58 PM
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Does Painting matter?
Here is a link ( http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2014/08/painting-matters-in-defense-of-hobby.html#comment-form )

Which the author says it does matter. I counter this with it doesn't matter if it takes away from the fun and enjoyment of the hobby or game, but I would like to hear what you folks say on the matter.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.


Edited by Karagin (08/28/14 06:19 PM)
ghostrider
08/28/14 01:34 AM
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That is up to you. If it annoys the hell out of you to do so, then don't. If you like to make them look good, then that is up to you.

If they are your items, paint them anyway you want to. I have yet to paint any of the lead/pewter figures I have, though my sisters painted some. Others were bought painted. I have not seen a difference in the use except when you do something stupid like drop them, or scratch them.

Granted some people become attached to the way a figure looks after it's painted.

Bottom line is how to YOU feel about it?
I say if it doesn't make you want to rip your hair out, and you got the funds for the stuff, do it.
This also implies you have the time as well.
skiltao
08/28/14 04:57 PM
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I figure that getting a 3D miniature game to look good is a hobby in itself, separate from the rules of play. Gaming for aesthetic vs. gaming for tactical puzzle. They overlap, sure, but they don't define each other.
carmachu
09/03/14 09:56 PM
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I always notice that this is generally a mindset that comes from Games Workshop players(40k, fantasy). Elitest type attitude that it must be painted.

Everyone comes into wargaming hobby for different reasons- painting, playing, modeling, social...... not playing someone because they dont paint up their army fully seems foolish and a loss of an opportunity for fun.

I eventually will get things painted over time. But its not my priority given my lack of free time. fun is the priority.
skiltao
09/04/14 05:02 PM
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I don't collect or paint minis, and don't intend to in the future. But I also don't expect someone who enjoys using painted minis to enjoy playing against my army (whatever I might bring instead of 2" robots) as much as they would a more aesthetic army; it would be a faux pas to act as though my army were "up to par." If the guy wants to provide me minis to use (and he's not at all obliged to do this), then he's a super cool dude, and obviously more interested in having fun than in making me paint.

I think it's worth noting that, in Karagin's link, the guys seem more interested in their members being engaged in the process of painting and improving (however slowly) than they are with the current state of their members' stuff. I don't think it's elitest to want to be part of a hobby club that's actually engaged with whatever it is that's particular to the hobby... if all I want is fun and socializing, I can do that with putt-putt, party videogames, poker, RPGs, etc.


(PS, addendum to my earlier post: sourcebook lore is a third separate-yet-overlapping hobby. Story fiction may be a fourth.)


Edited by skiltao (09/04/14 05:06 PM)
Karagin
09/04/14 06:24 PM
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It is elitist if they are going to tell someone no you can't play if your stuff isn't painted. Last time I looked this hobby was about fun and making friends not about the mechs being painted or even being miniatures at all.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
skiltao
09/05/14 02:26 PM
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That would be elitist, true, but I wouldn't take "painting matters" to mean "can't play." (At least, the guys at that link weren't equating the two.)

Are you so determined that BattleTech can't encompass multiple hobbies?

People wouldn't play BT if they weren't having fun and making friends, but that doesn't make "having fun and making friends" what the hobby is about. I mean, look, dentistry is "about" fixing and cleaning teeth, yeah? People become dentists because it's good money, but that doesn't make dentistry "about" money.



Edited by skiltao (09/05/14 02:32 PM)
Karagin
09/05/14 11:06 PM
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I am not saying you can't do more with anything and to my self and others yes the author of the article was indeed saying if the miniatures in use on the table during a game were not painted then it was not worth playing. I agree the hobby should be fun for you first and allow you to expand to make friends and find others who share an interest and a like of what you do like and have interests in. Multi-facets are good things, but NO one single thing other then having fun and enjoying your self should matter.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
skiltao
09/06/14 04:09 PM
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If having fun and enjoying yourself is the only thing that matters, then people should prioritize their chosen path towards fun, they should look for companions who help propel them along that path. And, again, that article does not elevate their chosen path (painting) above manners and hospitality.

I agree that going up to a hobbyist and demanding they abandon their hobby for a different one is a jerk thing to do.
Karagin
09/06/14 04:22 PM
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Who said manners what in question? I didn't, I said author is saying that by NOT taking the time to paint the miniatures then a person is not worth playing against since they are not into the hobby, last time I check games like BATTLETECH or WARHAMMER were WARGAMES, not paint by the number games, cool miniatures doesn't do anything if the players have no idea how to play the game or one side isn't a very good player, which the author also tries to argue with his comments about their not taking the time to paint means they don't know the game or do not have a good grasp of it.

As I have pointed out you can play any wargame with proxy playing pieces and still have a good time. You do not need painted miniatures for that.

And yes having fun IS the only that matters since that is why we have hobbies, I don't do things I don't like to do, well I do go to work, but I kind of have no choice in that area since they get a bit upset and start doing things like taking my money and rank, not fun in losing those things. Point is when someone says you have to paint your miniatures or you can't play or we will not play against you is setting that group above everyone one and playing the old clicks and special cool club just because the writer in this case feels you need to paint the stuff or else you are not a true miniature player or what ever label they want to add to this week.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
skiltao
09/06/14 04:43 PM
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You are talking about turning away players whose minis aren't up to par, or being condescending to such players while playing them. That's an issue of manners and hospitality.

Wargames encompass many hobby aspects, as you agreed earlier. Painting is one of these. If you claim that painting doesn't matter, then you're saying that hobby doesn't matter. If hobby doesn't matter then we're talking about a social activity club, not a hobby club. I don't think social activity clubs are uniformly superior to hobby clubs, and I do not think it's wrong to want a hobby club instead of a social activity club.

If you're claiming the painting aspect matters less than your preferred aspect, then you are asking a hobbyist or hobby club to sacrifice their fun in order to accommodate yours. (As I said earlier: manners and hospitality.)

If you have personal, real life experience with the authors of that piece, then I bow to your specific experience. But if you are merely brushing them with a broad generic stroke borne of experiences elsewhere, then I think you are misreading them and overreacting.
ghostrider
09/06/14 04:51 PM
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Now that is an issue there.
Being up to par?
Who can tell another they have to follow someone else's ideas on what is acceptable. For alot of people, just having the figures is more then they can afford. I am not saying they are 100's of dollars for one, but most people have other bills like keeping a roof over their head.
Hobbies are side projects. For some like me, I can not paint worth a damn. If people don't like it, I don't associate with them. Granted, some areas they may be the only people playing around.

This is akin to telling someone how to play. If they want the figures painted so bad, then have the people pushing it paint them. As skiltao says, it is a lack of manners that drives that. Play with the cardboard cut outs if you are that picky on having color in the units.
I suspect the next step is them telling you that you have to have a unit logo painted on the figures as well.
I mean an elite group would have that. Few hundred mechs painted up in different units colors and such. It is the ONLY way a true player would go.
Yeah, right.
Karagin
09/06/14 08:07 PM
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If it was about manners, then the issue would not have been presented as the author did. If their groups wants to only play with folks who paint their stuff then hey good for them, meanwhile the rest of us play as we see fit, which is the point I have had all along with this. And yes the author did say they would rather NOT play against someone who doesn't take the time or effort to paint their miniatures, he clearly says that a few times, comparing it to showing up not fully knowing the game you are about to play. I could care less if there is paint on the mechs or if they are using wooden blocks with cardboard counters taped to them, I am there to have fun and play the game, not to judge painted figures, that is a totally different thing and not part of wargaming in the sense that it is the actual playing of the game. Judging painted figures is for things like modeling competitions.

I try to paint the miniatures I own, for fun and to see what I can come up with, not to please a single person other then myself. To me the stuff I have painted doesn't look all that great, posted some of the pics here on Sarna, folks say they look decent, but to me I can see all things I wanted to do and didn't get out of the painting, but then again that is how I happen to view it.

Like I said before, the best games don't even talk about the paint job of a mech, but about the battle it self, where you and your buddies are talking about how the Archer taking the ammo hit caused one side or the other to lose the fight or how that single Phoenix Hawk managed to cap the Behemoth etc...those are things 99% of wargammers recall about a game, not the paint job of the third mech of the 5th lance of the 12th company. Which again is what I have been saying, that the hobby isn't about one single thing, but many things and the main part is having fun and enjoying the hobby.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
skiltao
09/07/14 06:29 PM
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Karagin, that's not what I meant. I'm saying that the article, as presented, attempts to explain how the painting hobby enhances the authors' enjoyment of gameplay. *You* are the one interpreting this pleasure as a lack of manners.

Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Now that is an issue there.
Being up to par?
Who can tell another they have to follow someone else's ideas on what is acceptable.



"Following someone else's ideas" goes both ways. For my part, I'm rather satisfied in believing that any army I could bring to the table would be sub-par.
Karagin
09/07/14 08:29 PM
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I find his part about if you don't paint them then you aren't really into the hobby or game to be a bit much, and the only one talking about manners is you. I stated from the start that painting the miniatures isn't important vs playing the game, and I have not changed that opinion at all.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
09/08/14 01:53 AM
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Fun is the thing that keeps people coming back.
And honestly, saying that someone has to know all the rules to play? More then a few people just starting don't know a good portion of them. And this is dealing with more then just battletech. House rules change a lot of how people play.

But even without this factor, how do you get new people to play when you require them to know everything about the game when a lot of long time players don't know everything?

I would suspect the person that wrote the article is a retired person with some good funds, since not everyone has time to get into full painting detail, and sometimes they barely have the money for a new book much less lots of figures.
You can be totally into hobbies and not have a room full of things to go with it.

As a side note, hobbies do include things like fishtanks and building race cars. The only thing that matters is having fun. If it looks nice, is a bonus.
skiltao
09/08/14 06:09 PM
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Karagin, look at your second post in this thread. You described the attitude as elitist and inhospitable, thereby making it an issue of manners and hospitality.

But guys, c'mon. Suppose we have two guys who put identical energy and detail into playing a game and, in addition, one of them also paints stuff involved in the game. Of the two guys, surely you agree the painter is more "involved?"

What if nice looks are part of the guy's fun? God knows there are games I wouldn't play on the strength of their mechanics alone. The "know the rules" thing is an analogy: he's saying that the way one player's poor rules knowledge can affect another, more experienced player's enjoyment of gameplay is similar to how unpainted figures affect his enjoyment of gameplay.
Karagin
09/08/14 08:45 PM
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It is elitist and not fun to play with those who consider the need to paint the playing pieces as the end of the game and it is elitist of them to say that if you aren't willing to take the time to paint the miniatures etc...then you are not a true wargamer or hobbyist or what ever label they want to put out there.

I don't agree that painting is more involved since you can play the game without painted pieces. Painting is something a person does because they want to, not something that is required.

And if the only thing that is appealing about a game is the playing pieces then the game is not going to be around long to worry about. As for the rules, a poor player is one who either improves over time or doesn't. His or her level or skill is not going to effect my ability to play the game and a good gamer will help the other player out. And I do not see how having one person show off their skill at painting makes the game any better either. I try to paint my stuff, but I am very happy using a wooden block with the word Atlas or Stinger written on it to play the game as I am with a miniature that is painted.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
09/08/14 09:28 PM
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I think we have covered this to the point that we can safely say that some want things painted and the majority of us don't care either way.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
skiltao
09/11/14 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

I think we have covered this to the point that we can safely say that some want things painted and the majority of us don't care either way.



Yeah. I don't think that was ever in question.
by_the_sword
10/13/15 07:19 PM
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When I first was introduced to BattleTech, we played with the cardboard counters that came in the boxed set. We did not have mins as we were all penniless students.

I played one session and fell in love with the game. No one had painted miniatures. When I in turn i troduced the game to my circle of friends, we played with cardboard counters at first and no one complained. Later on I began collecting the minis and had quite a collection. I completely sucked at painting. Most of my 'mechs were left primed. My girlfriend at the time was not into BattleTech, or any other kind of war game or science fiction, but had an artistic streak so I let her paint a few of the 'mech figurines. She did an excellent job making these terrifying war machines look spiffy, though she did take some liberties and a Hornet was painted in what I referred to as "Neon Camofuflage", a glossy purple with lines of neon green.

But I digress...

I would not turn away a player who had unpainted minis or used cardboard counters or pencil erasers or any other device, so long as they loved the game. To me, that is what really matters. It is why I love a rousing game at a table top with good people. Otherwise, I would just stay home and play on my computer.
Callisto
01/09/18 06:59 PM
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Just getting into the game. As a long time gammer I prefer painted minatures. As I enjoy painting and when a game is going on to me it feels more real. That being said Im a slow painter. They will eventually all get there but over time. I wouldn't hesitate to play unpainted or to play someone who has unpainted. I just prefer my own to be done up as nice as my skill allows.
wolf_lord_30
01/29/18 12:58 AM
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Well, since someone brought this thread to life, I read the article for the first time.

I hated it. He reminded me of several people I've gamed against, most of them Warhammer players. Notorious for bad attitudes, rules mongering, and unabashed pettiness.

I've played Warhammer. For years. Then sold it all once I grew out of it. That is a hobby first and a game second. If you don't believe me, you should see the new rules. It's a joke now. And the people that play usually believe what goes on in that article. I want to argue against it.

Wargaming has not always been a hobby in the sense that he makes it out to be. Miniatures were not always a part of games. Look at Avalon Hill's older wargames. Cardboard chits. If you play those, does that make you less of a wargamer? No. But his argument says yes.

He won't play with people that don't have painted armies. Why? Because he thinks it diminishes the game. It doesn't. Minis and painting add to it. And that I think is his biggest hang up. Painting adds to the army, not the other way around where not painting takes away from it. It is a game first, and if you can visually enjoy it, great, but if you see where the pieces are and what they are and how they are facing, that is all you need to know.

The rulebook when BattleTech first came out even says to use counters or pennies or whatever to use for your mechs. Yes, it is nice to see the 'Mech, but if there aren't enough pieces out there and they want 3 Wasps, let them. You still see all the necessary parts to it, know what it is and can enjoy the game. The miniatures are just aesthetic. That's it. You are not a more dedicated wargamer if you have painted minis. No, you're dedicated to a part of the game that is really quite separate. Minis can enhance someone's appeal for the game, or lure in new people, that's true, but if you get into a good game, it doesn't matter if they're painted or not. And it definitely does not make you a better player for having painted minis.

And then he goes on about standards. That really bothered me. That is an elitist attitude saying that you have to reach a certain standard in order to play and enjoy a game. Those are his standards, and not the industry standards. Wargaming honestly doesn't have standards. You learn the game, you get better, you play and you have fun. If you are so inclined, buy miniatures. Paint if you really want to. There are standards in place by gaming companies though, such as Games Workshop who promote that to sell more product and then get people to buy into that philosophy. Then they in turn try to shove it on everyone else because that's what they've done and they don't want to be alone.

Lastly, I would like to point out a problem of mine that I would have for BT. I like too many factions for various reasons. I am not going to buy several minis, then paint them one color scheme, then have to re-buy them and paint them another faction. And generic camo is blah to me. So because I can't decide who to pick for a faction, he wouldn't play against me. Doesn't matter how good I might be, or how much I love the game, but it's not appealing enough for him to waste his time playing against an unpainted opponent. That to me, just hits me wrong.
BootDisk
01/29/18 12:49 PM
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I agree with you, wolf_lord_30. That article was ridiculous. "My opinion is the only right opinion" sums the whole thing up.

I can and have painted miniatures a lot, and as you said, that is a separate thing. If I was walking by a table with a plain white hex grid and cardboard circles with mech names written on them, I admit that I would not be impressed. I might not look for more than ten minutes and drool, etc. But that doesn't mean that those people playing there aren't better tacticians than me.

Another thing that really burns me is when I purchase some mechs, say, a Ral Partha Warhammer IIC and it LOOKS HORRIBLE! At that point, I'd rather just put a nickle down on the table and say "that's robot".
Karagin
01/30/18 12:32 AM
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I am glad to see I am not the only one who can see how some are a bit to stuck on their opinions about wargames or any game for that matter. Thanks for the new input and comments. As long as you are having fun it doesn't matter if the mechs or figures are painted.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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