Retry
05/10/18 01:04 AM
64.189.130.11
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The question on the Argo Dropship's canonicity & legality got me reading about the thing, which set me off on a chain reaction that eventually got me here making this post.
The Argo is a dropship that is currently apocryphal. The Argo is a civillian mobile base, well stocked with cargo, medical supplies, some sort of Grav Deck thing, and Hydroponics, and 57 kilotons of cargo space. The idea of a dropship with a Grav deck and a huge cargo capacity caught my eye, and I wondered: what if its cargo was people?
Scale that up a bit: What if you permanently attached that dropship to a Jumpship or even a Warship, to make a large human ferry?
Well, if you take a 100,000 ton Dropship, stick a tiny engine on it and give it only marginal armor plating, self-defense weapons, and fuel (since it's supposed to be permanently attached to the Jumpship anyways), you can 10,000 2nd-class passenger quarters, or about a small town's worth. You'll have about 15,000 spare tonnage for assorted cargo: Solid, liquid, refrigerated, and insulated. Play a bit looser with the construction rules and you can build that dropship around a small (~100 meter?) grav deck. You could make the Habitat Pod a luxurious model by switching the quarters for 1st class quarters and only house 7,000 passengers or go for bulk with steerage quarters for 14,000 passengers. Going over the numbers quickly, I get a price tag of under 400 Million C-Bills for a Habitat Pod (10,000 passengers, but no Grav Deck).
We'll call this theoretical dropship a "Habitat Pod".
A habitat pod is all well and good for keeping fleshy beings alive in a solar system, but perhaps we want to move these fleshy beings to other systems for some reason. Then, we'll need a jumpship or a heavily modified warship.
The largest possible Jumpship is 500 kilotons, and the largest possible Warship is 2500 kilotons.
Jumpship and Warships can have 1 dropship hardpoint every 50 kilotons.
This means a Jumpship could theoretically carry 10 Habitat Pods at 500 Kilotons. Slap on a big 250-meter Grav Deck for the passengers of the Habitat Pods, some Small Craft Bays filled with K-1 Dropshuttles to ferry in supplies to the Jumpship's ecosystem, and other miscellaneous items. Tonnage could be used for even more passengers but this would be rather inefficient. Ultimately the Jumpship would be carrying between 70,000-140,000, or the size of a rather small city.
The closest canon jumpship to this concept would be the Monolith-Class Jumpship, which can carry 50 passengers, 6 small craft, some spare cargo, and 9 dropships. It costs about 1.6 billion C-Bills. Extrapolating a bit, a theoretical civillian-class jumpship built exclusively to ferry 10 of these Habitat Pods would cost no more than 2 billion C-Bills.
We'll call this theoretical Jumpship the Odin-Class.
A Warship could theoretically carry 50 Habitat Pods at 2500 Kilotons. In addition to these pods, far more of the Warship's space could be utilized to make it far more durable, have a respectable armament, a massive Small Craft bay for resupplying the Warship's ecosystem, multiple large Grav Decks for its civillian population (or maybe just one huge Space Station-class Grav Deck), a ton of cargo space, and a lot of space to stuff even more passengers if so desired (or marines to keep the civillians pacified, for that matter). There's many ways one can go with a Warship-based carrier since it's not nearly as tonnage-squeezed as a Jumpship. Assuming it's carrying all Habitat Pods with no extra seating for civillian passengers on the Warship itself, such a Warship would be able to carry 350,000-700,000 people. So at its largest it can carry about the size of Boston or Washington DC, or the entire state of Wyoming, with a more typical and likely size being about the size of Miami. It's no Tokyo, but it's still respectable.
The closest canon Warship that could apply this concept would be the Potemkin-class Troop Transport, which can carry 25 dropships. It's not cheap though: It costs about 31 Billion C-Bills. Extrapolate this concept to an even larger warship with 50 dropship capacity, and we can make a conservative estimate that our people-carrier will cost, say, 100 Billion C-Bills.
We'll call this theoretical Warship the Asgard-Class.
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What could possibly be the application of these?
Well, an Odin filled to the brim with Habitat Pods costs about 2(Odin Cost)+10(Pods)*.4(Cost/Pod)=6 Billion C-Bills and would have a typical carrying capacity of 100,000 Passengers, for a C-Bill cost of 60,000 C-Bills per individual before factoring stuff like food. The Odin Habitat Ship configuration could be used for mass evacuation of civillians on other planets or for mass colonization purposes in conjunction with other jumpships carrying more traditional dropships. Or perhaps Odins could be used as some sort of luxury hotel/ cruise ship for rich Terrans or something, that makes month-long trips across the inner sphere. Not for cheap, of course.
The Asgard setup can carry about 5 times as many people but is far more expensive and not nearly as cost efficient. An Asgard setup will cost around 100(Asgard Cost)+50(Pods)*.4(Cost/Pod)=120 Billion C-Bills, or 20x as much as an Odin. The cost per individual will then be about 240,000 C-Bills per individual, but due to being mounted on a Warship Chassis the Asgard will be faster, better armored and armed, and less vulnerable than an Odin and with a deeper cargo bay, so surely there's still applications for that.
Or picture, if you will, their applications in a slightly more dystopian setting.
A single-planet faction is being attacked, or will be attacked. Maybe it's just a giant planet destroying asteroid. Maybe it's some alien race in tripods and a taste for human flesh. Maybe it's Techno-Barbarians 2.0 Electric Boogaloo. Or maybe it's just angry rabid Space Whales. Regardless, everyone's gotta get off the rock they're on and they're all going to die. So what does the government do?
Since time is the issue and not cost, the Government builds some Odins, Asgards, and Habitat Pods as modern-day ArkShips to preserve their civilization and puts the best and brightest of humanity (or whatever they are) in them, which naturally includes the politicians who are wasting their time and budget building ArkShips instead of trying to actually solve the problem posed by the Space Whales. The planet's population is evacuated (well, the "important" parts, probably not the proles), and the civilization is more-or-less saved and relocates to some other rock that doesn't have the Space Whale vermin.
But what if they can't settle down? What if they just don't want to settle down? What if the Nomad Life chose them? Perhaps a Nomadic civilization could exist in the BT universe via Habitat Ships, jumping around and occasional extracting materials from asteroids or planets to fuel their vessels and feed their population.
Any thoughts on the idea of Habitat Ships or interesting applications thereof?
Edited by Retry (05/10/18 01:05 AM)
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Karagin
05/10/18 01:43 AM
72.176.187.91
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Jarnfolk come to mind.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
05/10/18 04:37 AM
58.175.193.140
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This has possibilities - the Vikings of the periphery, not only with communities in space - with their own raiders / pirates .
Keep it up I think this is a great idea.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
05/10/18 04:57 PM
66.74.61.223
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What if you used it as a infantry transport? Dropping that many troops with one ship is nasty.
Now as for a spaceborn civilization, it has potential. But take the concept one step further. Just build the space into the warship to begin with. Even remove the docking ring to do so, would be a good idea, as it becomes part of the superior armored warship. If you don't detach the ship, the docking ring is useless anyways.
And what is wrong with making a mobile habitat? Move it when it is threatened. So the enemy has to look for you again if repulsed. Even just using it as a mobile work factory, landing on rich asteroids for mining, though food may be the weak link to this. A few CV models may well allow you to guard farming communities.
But it does have alot of potential.
Now the question comes down to actual costs if you are the one building it, not buying it. The should drop the costs dramatically.
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Retry
05/10/18 10:03 PM
64.189.130.11
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Infantry Transport: My envisioned Habitat Pods would probably not even be capable of atmospheric operations. You could carry even more infantry using proper infantry bays instead of 1st class, 2nd class, or even steerage, and I mean like full division's worth of infantry, but these wouldn't be permanent accommodations and are insufficient for a Habitat Vessel.
With putting space into the warship, that was one of my first thoughts, but I rejected it for the Habitat Pod idea. A docking collar weighs 1000 tons each, so removing one would allow you to put 200 steerage quarters for passengers. However, a single Habitat Pod can carry about 10,000 passengers, making the gain a net loss. Dropships can also dedicate a seriously large percentage of their weight to crew quarters: My example Habitat Pod dedicates 70% of its weight to just carrying passengers, with some 10-20% dedicated to cargo for the passengers. You can't pack that much on a Jumpship or even a Warship, as the K-F drive by itself takes up like half of the Warship's weight. The docking hardpoints are necessary for extending the K-F Field to jump with the habitat pods.
Instead of carrying the bulk of the passengers, the purpose of the Jumpship or Warship is to act as the engine: It's what moves the habitat pods around. I'd estimate that it would be better to allocate the mass of the jumpship or warship to other things, like more powerful sublight engines, big grav-decks, hydroponics facilities to feed its ecosystem, medical facilities, Small Craft bays, and infastructure for the ruling government. I could see, say, a hundred or so 1st Class Quarters being allocated to represent the society's government officials and VIPs with deep enough pockets to stay near the Warship's superior accomodations.
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csadn
05/11/18 02:37 AM
50.53.22.4
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Clan Ghost Bear, during the Great Move. IMSMC: They took a 2.5-million-ton WarShip, gutted it of every system they could, and turned it into a city-ship of sorts.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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ghostrider
05/11/18 04:10 AM
66.74.61.223
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For some reason, warships not being able to handle more people then a dropship sounds off.
So 28 man platoon/lance x 3 for a company, x 3 again for a battalion, x3 for a regiment looks to be 756 men for a normal regiment. What infantry carrier actually holds this? A battalion in most cases, which the old dropship books has 336 listed for troop transports.
Now the example of the 10k passenger ship says minimal armor, self defense weapons, as it is attached to a jumpship, does limit troop movement to routine, safe worlds. But at 100,000 tons, it could be a nasty troop transport beating out alot of other ships. Most looked like they were under 10,000 tons.
Using those dropships and increasing it 10 times, I do not see where this would make a horrible transport. That is 10 regiments of troops at one time.
I guess I just realized how stupid the construction rules are.
I understand the jump core takes up alot of room, but the limit on people is hard to believe. Then again, dropships don't seem to be built for staying in space.
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Retry
05/11/18 11:52 AM
64.189.130.11
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Quote:
For some reason, warships not being able to handle more people then a dropship sounds off.
So 28 man platoon/lance x 3 for a company, x 3 again for a battalion, x3 for a regiment looks to be 756 men for a normal regiment. What infantry carrier actually holds this? A battalion in most cases, which the old dropship books has 336 listed for troop transports.
Now the example of the 10k passenger ship says minimal armor, self defense weapons, as it is attached to a jumpship, does limit troop movement to routine, safe worlds. But at 100,000 tons, it could be a nasty troop transport beating out alot of other ships. Most looked like they were under 10,000 tons.
Using those dropships and increasing it 10 times, I do not see where this would make a horrible transport. That is 10 regiments of troops at one time.
I guess I just realized how stupid the construction rules are.
I understand the jump core takes up alot of room, but the limit on people is hard to believe. Then again, dropships don't seem to be built for staying in space.
A foot platoon infantry bay costs 5 tons and can carry up to 28 troops (1 platoon).
1 Passenger quarters in steerage costs 5 tons and can accomodate only 1 person, but it can hold that one person more or less indefinitely, whereas the Infantry Bay is a temporary accomodation and cannot hold 28 civillians indefinitely.
Massive warships *can* carry more people than a dropship in absolute terms, but a smaller % of its weight can be used for that purpose. So while a 2500 kiloton warship could carry more people than a single 100 kiloton Dropship, it cannot carry more people than 50 100-kiloton dropships. The Warship could carry 50 of those dropships while still having plenty of spare weight for other things, instead of trying to carry most of the people itself.
No canon carrier can carry a full regiment AFAIK, though the Nagumo can carry a full battalion. It's not too difficult to design a large custom Dropship that can carry a full division (~10,000 men or so) of troops though.
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csadn
05/12/18 02:42 AM
50.53.22.4
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Been poking around with the ship design software -- this is what a 100,000-ton (minimum allowed) WarShip would look like, with a "civilian" K-F core:
Mass: 100,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 6,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 1
Maximum Thrust: 2
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 4) 45,250.00
Jump Sail: No Sail (Fusion-Charged K-F) .00
Structural Integrity: 3 300.00
Total Heat Sinks: 199 Single 45.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 1,020.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 250.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Armor Type: Standard (0 total armor pts) .00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 0
Fore-Left/Right: 0/0
Aft-Left/Right: 0/0
Aft: 0
Cargo:
Bay 1: (Extra mass of "civilian" K-F drive) (1) 45,250.00
Crew and Passengers:
11 Officers (11 minimum) 110.00
55 Crew (54 minimum) 385.00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 0 98,610.00
Tons Left: 1,390.00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 1,375,476,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,044
Cost per BV: 1,317,505.75
Weapon Value: 0 (Ratio = .00)
Damage Factors: SRV = 0; MRV = 0; LRV = 0; ERV = 0
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 24,465
(2,650 Structure, 19,825 Life Support, 1,990 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 75,515 (309% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
Granted, it would require Max Thrust to make landfall, but it could do so and lift off again (at least from "normal"-grav worlds).
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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