Requiem
07/16/18 11:31 PM
58.175.193.140
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Nicholas’ formation of the Clans and their invasion of the Pentagon in order to establish his ‘new order’ resulted in hunting down the warlords who mercilessly exploited the Pentagon civilians and utilizing “The Coursing and Thamzing” upon warlords who survived the invasion - they became object lessons for the remaining population.
Executions for some and being prompted to “confess” by others, then publicly humiliated and beaten, people begin to denounce others in fear of being denounced themselves, thus he was able to systematically destroy the old political systems and authority.
The people became willing accomplices, due to fear of the brutality employed, and the questioning of military authority deceased to a point where individuals once more understood the quote, ‘Those who trade freedom for security in the end get neither!’
Nicholas proving that he would do anything to ensure his new society’s survival.
The sheer brutality of the post-liberation months – can only be considered to be a lack of law and order – mob justice and mob rule – months in which the liberators did nothing to restore law and order – a period of endless rioting and the only justice was found at the end of a gun.
For some within the Clans, who were once SLDF personnel – and part of Alexander’s SLDF personnel – this would have gone against everything they believed in – they feared, and rightly so, that Nicholas had become another Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-tung or Stefan Amaris….
Thus the citizens of this new society found they walked a fine line between criticism and treason – a time of purges of dissenting elements within society.
Criticism mounted and reached a crisis …
Nicholas’ power was ebbing as Clan Wolverine’s Khan Sarah McEvedy was gaining political traction against him … however with a few ill-chosen words her chance at liberalizing the Clans was lost forever…providing Nicholas (Stalin) with an excuse to destroy his opposition.
However, there were still those who supported the Wolverines within the Grand Council, thus in order to remove all opposition and ensure he was ilKhan (the absolute ruler) for all time this would require an act that would ensure the Wolverines destruction.
10 October during the Wolverines counterattack upon the Raven capital of Dehra – Nicholas once again returning to his belief that he would do anything to ensure “his” survival and he sent in a small unit and during the battle his unit was able to penetrate the Raven genetic repository – setting off a low-yield nuclear weapon. The true message was simple and brutal: you have backed me, ilKhan Nicholas Kerensky, into a corner and I will do anything and everything to stop you.”
As for the wolverines driving civilians from the area, they had returned to their SLDF origins and were only attempting to save civilian life from the ongoing battle as it began to shift into a residential area.
With this destruction of the repository Nicholas was able to ensure his only political rival and their entire clan was annihilated – and an object lesson was provided to all the remaining clans.
Thus his famous quote of “Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness” was in reality “Those who break faith with ‘me’ shall go down into darkness.”
And thus the Wolverines fate was sealed and that of the Clans taking the path to a dystopian society sealed.
By now those who support the Clans would be denouncing me …. But let us consider two people….
Sarah McEvedy …. And as per the Sarna wiki …. “What is known from Star League records is that McEvedy was a highly courageous MechWarrior and well-respected command-level officer within the 331st. She was a firm believer in the morals and principles of the Star League, especially democracy and free thinking, and was a loyal follower of SLDF Commanding General Aleksandr Kerensky and his strong code of honor.”
Can you see a decorated SLDF officer who believes in the morals and principles of the Star League, especially democracy and free thinking, would use a nuclear warhead.
Then let us compare this to Nicholas …. A person who allowed anarchy to rule on the streets – a person who believed that brutal situations required brutal measures – a man who’s sheer brutality of the post liberation months prompted people to question his sanity – a person who did not allow anyone to question his authority … a Stalin in all but name.
Is it so hard to believe that he would use a nuclear weapon to frame his political rival to ensure his own absolute rule over the Clans?
In the balance of probabilities I could say beyond a chance of a reasonable doubt, given both of these two people’s personalities, that it was Nicholas who used the nuclear warhead – framed Clan Wolverine – and ensured his absolute authority over the Clans.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/17/18 12:00 AM
66.74.61.223
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How is the start of this any different from dealing with insurrection in armed forces for any nation? All militaries that win remove the insurgents from their ranks violently and permanently. Otherwise, they will try again.
Before spouting more lies, reread the history there. The widowmakers and ravens stole some nukes from the cache found and went to blame the wolverines for it. Or so goes the wiki. They say the clans that did it were not in league with Nicholas, so he was not behind them using it.
How you came about as Nicholas being a vindictive and demented leader shocks me. He was doing what he thought right with limited resources. How do you guard even 10's of worlds with less then 800 soldiers in mechs? And that isn't saying how much infantry he had. Now fixing things. Where are these supplies coming from?
The primary factory worlds, ie the pentagon worlds, were in ruins. The colonies were not build up enough to sustain much, much less rebuild the pentagon worlds quickly.
Try building a water purifier from a wooden shack with shovels and picks. Make a fusion reactor from the same.
The Ravens were sending the nuke into Wolverine territory when the fighter carrying it was shot down, and exploded over the repository. Nicholas had no knowledge of it being done. Again, reading behind the lines has distorted the real happenings. This is not an alt history, but a full fledged attack on something that is perceived, not real.
The only anarchy he allowed was the feuding factions to burn themselves out in the civil war, as he did not have the forces at the time to do much, other then destroy what little was still protecting the colonies. Where you came up with something else is supposition to what is written.
No where in the history or the wiki says Nicholas even knew about the nukes. Again. Try reading what is written without adding in things.
Sorry. Nicholas did not know the other clans had taken some. He knew there was some in the cache the Wolverines found in their territory.
And oddly enough, the Jade Falcons were the one to start all this with a fail trial of possession for the cache. Hmm. Must be Nicholas guiding them.
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Requiem
07/17/18 02:33 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: How is the start of this any different from dealing with insurrection in armed forces for any nation? All militaries that win remove the insurgents from their ranks violently and permanently.
Nicholas – anarchy – mob justice – the kangaroo Court …… etc
Normal military – Nuremberg Trials – international law “The typification of the crimes and the constitution of the court represented a juridical advance that would be used afterwards by the United Nations for the development of a specific international jurisprudence in matters of war crime, crimes against humanity, war of aggression, as well as for the creation of the International Criminal Court.”
So one just shoots them in the back of the skull and the other uses a court and law ….
QUOTE: Before spouting more lies ….
But I thought the victor wrote …. or …..re-wrote history to fit with their view of events …. ?
QUOTE: How you came about as Nicholas being a vindictive and demented leader shocks me …
What did his forces do during the invasion of the Pentagon? …. “The Coursing and Thamzing” for starters … is not a leader responsible for the actions of those under his command? … in today’s military he would be brought up on charges and court martialled for dereliction of duty + other charges, as he has a duty of maintaining the law, then he would be brought before the Hague Court …. So no if or buts HE IS a war criminal.
QUOTE: He was doing what he thought right with limited resources.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions ….. did he learn nothing from his father? …… you cannot do what his soldiers allowed to happen ….
Remember the idea of having a moral Compass …. This shows that he does not have one!
There is ALWAYS another choice only the despot resorts to “needs must as the devil drives” …. Situation.
QUOTE: The Ravens were sending the nuke into Wolverine territory when the fighter carrying it was shot down, and exploded over the repository.
And you believe this to be true account of what happened or is it something else ….?
QUOTE: No where in the history or the wiki says Nicholas even knew about the nukes.
Of course there wouldn’t be … any proof would have long ago been found and destroyed.
Did you ever consider they could have been more than one cache?
Or cold you just not steel or bribe someone?
No, in my opinion, Nicholas is a War Criminal and a Dictator equal to / or if not worse than that of Stalin.
Conspiracy Theory – Nicholas orchestrated the nuclear bombing of the repository.
It all fits … the psychological reports … action during the battle … power won and lost … it all fits together.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/17/18 03:33 AM)
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ghostrider
07/17/18 04:20 AM
66.74.61.223
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Wow. No basis in reality anymore.
The writers version is the version that is the one we go by. There is no alt history in this. Stop trying to argue the printed version with the alt one when it comes to facts. This is a complete distortion of what is written.
The game writers said what happened. That is what happened. Saying it is wrong, then suggesting it is that way in your alt when you are proven wrong doesn't work anymore.
Now a new version comes out and we are supposed to accept it, even though there are no ties to the company.
Where does it say Nicholas just shot the soldiers that were disobeying orders to stand down?
And saying when he arrived with his forces to end the fighting can not be used. There was no way most would allow him to take over at that time.
There were alot of caches made when the army got to the pentagon worlds. As stated by those who made the entire game said, they were taken from the cache the Wolverines had. Just like it states they were taken in secrecy.
Try this in the official battletech board. The few I know that did anything to suggest the canon version had issues were trolled until they left or were banned. But before you send off the alt to them, ask them what happened. This switching to alt after the argument starts is suggesting you don't want to understand what went down, but to argue with someone.
The only one that thinks this is the perfect fix is you.
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Requiem
07/17/18 08:09 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: No basis in reality anymore.
Have you ever looked into the history of some countries and the issues that are left out on purpose due to how much they embarrass everyone – not to mention trying to explain it in a school room could get quite ‘Interesting’?
Same here why would you want to put in the history books that he committed this and that crime when making him a national hero is easier?
Look at Nicholas’ personality can you really say he has a moral compass?
And isn’t a forum a place to put forward alternate ideas … I did write in my opinion, didn’t I?
Also if we just went by what the game writers said – would not the game just end due to a lack of creativity on the part of the gamers?
This is an alternate history not the Cannon.
Why could I not suggest this and then in my future when Victor is working with the anti-clan resistance he stumbles upon the evidence that clears the Wolverines – or even upon their return one of the RPG quests is to find a hidden room that contains the evidence that will clear Clan Wolverines name and Dam that of Nicholas’ for all time – thus some of the Clans switch sides over to the resistances’.
This is a game, and are we not allowed to modify it to suit our own interests.
Sticking to cannon, traps the minds and creativity of all the players.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/17/18 09:02 PM
66.74.61.223
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(The true story runs entirely different, but this is not known within the BattleTech universe.)
This is posted before the wiki, and to the extention, the writers, give the history of what the wanted to say really happened in their story line.
Not written by the victors. Not forgotten. Unknown to all in the Battletech universe.
The fact the nukes were stolen and used without Nicholas's knowledge is the canon law.
The post that started the thread did not state opinion, but presented as fact.
When pressed, the response came with opinion. This came after the change in the truth to fit the alt time line.
The presentation would have those just learning the history would be mislead into thinking this was the canon version.
That is where the issues start.
Sticking to cannon, traps the minds and creativity of all the players.
This statement is erroneous, as it requires alot of creativity to fight against the clans during the initial invasion and win. The person making the scenarios decides how much creativity, and how the game evolves, moreso then the players.
Try presenting the information in a less, this is the facts when it isn't statements.
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Requiem
07/18/18 01:18 AM
58.175.193.140
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I am quite sorry but I disagree that only Cannon history is allowed when it comes to discussing an alternate Nicholas’ story – why is his story so inviolate?
Is it that in saying he is evil that by extension the Clans and all they stand for are also evil?
Why can’t you have an arch nemesis empire?
This story is purely optional
Though when writing the Clans back story I am still under the opinion that in this case the silence is the thunderous – why have an army and a general that “fiddled as Rome burnt”, then when he finds himself ‘loosing’ his political power base he reverts to his base nature and frames his enemy – not only restoring his power but removing his enemy in one sweep of the broom - It just makes for a good story …. Rather than saying that he sat by as an accident occurred …. He then used this accident to win back his political power base (yawn!) …. Don’t you think that having an arch villain setting up and empire … that lasts for over 200 hundred years …. And is finally put down might become an interesting story from which to build upon?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/18/18 02:12 AM
66.74.61.223
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The initial presentation did not show it was an alt time line.
It was a full scale attack on the facts of the game.
As for running an alt, you will do as you will.
Starting off slamming something and not having the disclaimer in there is a try for an argument, in my opinion.
Much as you got upset when it was suggested Katherine was far worse, I don't have a problem with the way the clans are set up. I do think some of what they can do is bs, and think some things should be far better then what they are.
But that is for another thread.
Not sure if presenting the canon version then putting in the changes would do much, though having alt in the title should avoid it from now on.
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Requiem
07/30/18 06:10 PM
58.175.193.140
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Has anyone read the 2016 Novel Betrayal of Ideals by Blaine Lee Pardoe?
Re the secret of the Wolverines .... this is one I need to get asap .... how I missed getting this I will never know!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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