Karagin
08/07/18 12:35 PM
72.176.187.91
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Okay here is an idea, say ComStar lied to the Inner Sphere about the shape and conditions in the Sol System, reality, the factories and such are all back up and running and many of the "damaged" areas on the terraformed planets have been fixed long ago.
So this a two part deal, first part HOW do you think the Inner Sphere would react if this came out?
Second part give us your ideas on what the Sol System would look like if ComStar did indeed repair and revive all the stuff the Terran Hegemony/Star League had built there?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
08/07/18 05:49 PM
97.101.136.19
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This is fun. I've taken a few stabs at Terra-centric alternate histories before.
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Okay here is an idea, say ComStar lied to the Inner Sphere about the shape and conditions in the Sol System, reality, the factories and such are all back up and running and many of the "damaged" areas on the terraformed planets have been fixed long ago.
Nitpick (and I do mean trivia): the problems on Venus and Mars were more systemic than restricted to specific geographic areas. Per Masters & Minions and JHS:Terra, Venus needed its sun shield replaced after Amaris trashed it, and Mars needed some extra nitrogen and water to make up for centuries of losses to its dry, thirsty crust.
But don't let that stop your alternate history, those are easy fixes. The WoBblies actually implemented the Mars terraforming repairs in the 3050s and 3060s to secure Martian loyalty. It's not clear why ComStar ignored the Venusian sunshield when it had over 200 years to replace it.
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So this a two part deal, first part HOW do you think the Inner Sphere would react if this came out?
Second part give us your ideas on what the Sol System would look like if ComStar did indeed repair and revive all the stuff the Terran Hegemony/Star League had built there?
The two questions are related, and I'd need a little more information about the scenario - or I can make up my own alternate history from this starting point, which ever you prefer.
1) When does the Inner Sphere find out about Terra? This affects the Inner Sphere's response in a couple of ways. First, it took generations for respect of Terra's neutrality to build up, so a militant Terra in 2800 is more likely to be attacked than a healthy Terra in 3000. Second, Terra took decades to recover once it was in ComStar's hands. A Terra of 2900 or 3000 is a stronger force than a Terra of 2800.
2) Does ComStar announce any major policy changes associated with its big Terran revelation? In other words, is there any flexing of Terra's military muscles when Terra's factories are revealed like the way that the ComGuards were deployed in the Fourth Succession War? Or does ComStar keep Terra as its neutral, freely trading center of the Inner Sphere like it was before the 3030s?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
08/07/18 05:52 PM
58.175.193.140
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First, I must ask when it became known as to the true state of the Comstar’s technological capabilities and knowledge throughout all the fields of human knowledge?
As this will be needed to determine a response.
Second, who knows their true state – just one of the Great Houses or all of the Great Houses Lords and Intelligence Organisations or is it everyone within Inner Sphere?
So let me make some assumptions – 3050-52 With The Clan Invasion the Star League has once more been re-established to deal with this threat to all of Humanity.
Unbeknown to the First Circuit of Comstar an Acolyte provides incontrovertible proof as to ComStar’s true technological capabilities and knowledge. This is also leaked to the Free press who distribute this report regarding Comstar via Jumpship as far and as wide as they can initially. Though once the ‘cat’s out of the bag’ reports then also begin to be distributed via HPG as to Comstar’s position they find themselves in.
First, the people would react with shock and outrage – however with the right spin that they are the preservers of knowledge in these dark times of Succession Wars – they may be able to calm the people down (a bit) if they also begin to re-distribute this knowledge to the main universities and house lords for their decision as to how this knowledge will be distributed throughout their realm.
Thus we are at a point that every business would be clamouring to get this information first – a competitive advantage over their rivals (not patriotism - commerce will be the driving factor, though it will be dressed up as patriotism as far as their marketing campaign will show), and have this new knowledge integrated into their operations asap.
Mass university / technical colleges will be established to re-educate the masses up to the new level (Star League Era) knowledge throughout all the realms.
As for the production Capabilities of the Comstar, this would then be provided for the benefit of all human kind by allowing the new “council of the Star League” to establish a new SLDF (integrated into the ComGuard Possibly?)
With the true (Terra and those manufactories that are known – ie. not any secret facilities) capability ComStar becomes Know the hidden veneer that was used to cover ComStars true capabilities is removed upon all visible manufacturing sites. The only major visible change to the Terran Sector initially would be the Naval Yards – as these would be brought on line to being the formation of a new SFLF Navy.
Over time (ten plus years) the whole face of Terra, Luna Base, Mars etc. would change as new consumer goods are integrated into all the households – new vehicles – new clothing lines (due to new fabrics) etc.
As will all the households throughout the Inner Sphere change as the level of Technological development beings to be integrated throughout the Inner Sphere – thus little by little the quality of life is improved, more job opportunities are realised, more disposable income, more purchases of goods etc.
One could even consider it a Renaissance throughout the Inner Sphere.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/07/18 05:56 PM)
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Karagin
08/07/18 06:49 PM
72.176.187.91
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Quote:
1) When does the Inner Sphere find out about Terra? This affects the Inner Sphere's response in a couple of ways. First, it took generations for respect of Terra's neutrality to build up, so a militant Terra in 2800 is more likely to be attacked than a healthy Terra in 3000. Second, Terra took decades to recover once it was in ComStar's hands. A Terra of 2900 or 3000 is a stronger force than a Terra of 2800.
Okay they find out AFTER they forces of Stone attack the Sol System, rumors abound but ComStar and WoB did everything to hide the facts. I have a rebellion alt-plot line where a Terran revolt kicks WoB off Terran while Stone is still slogging through the actual system. No more ten foot tall super heroes or villains.
I would say this takes place over the entire span of the time they took control, hence why I am asking, I doubt they "let" anything fail really, but hey what sounds better look we are beaten in the Terran system, so leave us alone poor Earth etc.... So who is going to go after it if reports match the propaganda material and who controls the HPGs?
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2) Does ComStar announce any major policy changes associated with its big Terran revelation? In other words, is there any flexing of Terra's military muscles when Terra's factories are revealed like the way that the ComGuards were deployed in the Fourth Succession War? Or does ComStar keep Terra as its neutral, freely trading center of the Inner Sphere like it was before the 3030s?
The only flexing is what we see both ComStar and WoB do. They still playing their silly games and WoB still "some how" gets their super army and men and supplies, and they have their insanity, (Come on Cray you know I dislike the Jihad plot line as an over done trope that borders on laziness and this is my way of having fun with it for what I need it to for), everything goes along up to about the last 3 years of the war, that is when my changes take place, so the only people who really know that the Terran system isn't the wasteland that is claimed are ComStar, WoB, the House Intel agencies and WolfNet.
The idea isn't to rewrite past events just adjust things going forward with a slightly less "agrarian" path.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (08/07/18 06:52 PM)
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Karagin
08/07/18 06:51 PM
72.176.187.91
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Quote:
First, I must ask when it became known as to the true state of the Comstar’s technological capabilities and knowledge throughout all the fields of human knowledge?
As this will be needed to determine a response.
They find out the truth once Stone's forces enter the Sol System and they get their own readings of things and not the controlled "tour" that cargo or visiting craft would get.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Requiem
08/08/18 03:25 AM
58.175.193.140
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16 August 3078
The final mission to liberate terra had begun.
The Word of Blake defence was brutal and swift utilizing as yet unforeseen Caspar II drone vessel, defence batteries armed with atomic warheads.
Scorched earth tactics were used which included nuclear devastation – horrendous widespread wounds were inflicted upon Terra.
And during all this the intelligence apparatus of not only Stone’s but all the Great powers were quick to recognise new technological developments had been achieved providing the Word of Blake with a new strategic advantage.
Quickly each Great power would attempt to identify the manufacturing site of these weapons – small units would be formed to penetrate these lairs and obtain a copy of all their research material contained therein. A second protocol would be put in place to either capture / kill as per the the situation each of these teams find themselves in in regards to scientists / engineers found within these plants (if extraction is viable do so – if they are being extracted by another great house kill on sight)
They would also be required to identify any other repositories of technology. Possible raids are then to be determined based upon their probability of success.
Thus throughout the Terra campaign a shadow war is being conducted to amass Word of Blake / ComStar Technology repositories / people and extradite them back to each individuals intelligence agency (and with the hope that no one else knows what you are up to).
Though at the end of the campaign Political manoeuvring by each Great House / Stone to gain access to “share” this acquired knowledge would soon begin an argument ‘as to what each intelligence apparatus has been able to acquire for “the greater good of coalition forces”’;
Also whilst all this is going on Stone has allowed embedded reporters within some units.
So what if there was one very good reporter who caught this show game in action and told all the people of the Inner Sphere?
Now that would get interesting very quick, don’t you think?
Is this the kind of answer you were looking for?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/18 03:42 AM
66.74.61.223
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I always thought the sol system was open to jumpships traveling thru the area. Someone should have seen something wasn't right.
Then you have the makers of the demolisher and behemoth. They are built on Terra, and shipped out from there. It is implied that comstar does NOT deliver them. So no information gets out that way?
And then the fact comstar can build warship engines, which is interesting as WOB had control of terra when the later ones were built.
Then the deployment of the comguards during the 4th war didn't freak everyone out, that comstar had 50 plus regiments of mechs just waiting to be used?
So this issue actually dates back further then Stone.
Now add in all the new mechs WOB has when they strike. You know the other houses have spies in the FWL, and they would know not all of those came from FWL factories.
And let's not forget the big ones. Comstar had their own jumpship design, as well as warships that were very well maintained. Not something you could do if you didn't have the knowledge.
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Cray
08/08/18 06:46 AM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
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1) When does the Inner Sphere find out about Terra? This affects the Inner Sphere's response in a couple of ways. First, it took generations for respect of Terra's neutrality to build up, so a militant Terra in 2800 is more likely to be attacked than a healthy Terra in 3000. Second, Terra took decades to recover once it was in ComStar's hands. A Terra of 2900 or 3000 is a stronger force than a Terra of 2800.
Okay they find out AFTER they forces of Stone attack the Sol System, rumors abound but ComStar and WoB did everything to hide the facts.
Ah. Well, at that point Terra's industrial strength was well known by the Inner Sphere, a point stated in The Blake Documents. When ComStar was kicked off Terra in 3058 it went crying to the Houses and let them know it had been reviving Terra's factories to make good losses at Tukayyid. The SLDF-era stockpiles were exhausted. The Inner Sphere intelligence agencies were able to track the Word of Blake's Militia as it grew in strength due to Terran-built hardware.
Further, Terra wasn't as closed as WoB would've liked. After the Focht thaw in the 3050s, political blocs in the Terran system - like Terrans, Belters, and Martians - found they liked trade with the Inner Sphere. Terrans were key to building the Blake Protectorate since a lot of Inner Sphere core worlds liked the good ole days of the Hegemony. After Blake's reconquista of 3058, it was never able to close all those information pipelines, not if it wanted to build the Protectorate.
As a result, the Terran system was an informational sieve compared to the pre-3052 period and the Inner Sphere had a fairly clear image of it. The only thing the intel agencies couldn't figure out was what would happen with all that Terran muscle if a House Lord did something crazy like ending the new Star League because no one warned them the Star League was ending.
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So who is going to go after it if reports match the propaganda material and who controls the HPGs?
Per "The Blake Documents," the Inner Sphere had a good picture of Terra's industrial capability. It was well understood that Terra, not five hidden worlds, were responsible for most of WoB's clout.
So, the revelation of Terra's capabilities in the 3070s is going to generate a "Yes, we knew that" response. If you had set this in the 2870s (when Terrans were fighting a rebellion against ComStar) there'd be a lot more surprise from the Inner Sphere.
That in no way hinders the next part of your plot:
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I have a rebellion alt-plot line where a Terran revolt kicks WoB off Terran while Stone is still slogging through the actual system.
Sure. You just need to ID the Terran military forces that can overthrow WoB. The Bureau of Terran Affairs' troops are mostly heavily armed police who couldn't take on the Militia. There are lots of Terrans in the WoB Militia - can you get them to band together into a coherent group?
A good alternate history "point of deviation" might be having WoB lower the ideological requirements to the join the militia. Instead of having the most brainwashed Terrans join the militia, they open themselves to pro-Terran, meh-WoB personnel.
Perhaps WoB doesn't allow BoTA's police forces to have military hardware and instead require that such personnel be part of the Militia. That'd put a lot of pro-Terran people in WoB, a perfect nucleus for a mutiny.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
08/08/18 06:52 AM
97.101.136.19
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I always thought the sol system was open to jumpships traveling thru the area.
Yep. Terra was a huge trade nexus for the Inner Sphere. Prior to 3050, ComStar restricted a lot of activity to the jump points and kept foreigners away from Terra. Even then, Terra was a major military supplier to the Inner Sphere with products ranging from Behemoth tanks to aerospace fighters and had been throughout the Succession Wars.
Focht opened up the Terran system in the 3052-3058 period, and WoB never closed it back up to the extent of pre-Clan ComStar.
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Someone should have seen something wasn't right.
It's stated in canon (e.g., Jihad Secrets: Blake Documents, p. 13-14) that the Inner Sphere knew of Terra's military-industrial expansion in the 3050s and 3060s. In fact, it analyses WoB's industrial strength in depth in comparison to the Clans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/08/18 09:36 AM
72.176.187.91
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All good and great, but see you are going with the idea that ComStar was telling the truth, and really did they ever? And the WoB had their version of the truth as well. And y'all are focused on military stuff, this more then that.
So Foch cries, hey look they have all this and the Houses are like right and your organization has been telling us for how long the whole system was a wreck? See the problem here?
As for how the rebellion plays out, it has several elements going for it, mainly using the WoB's own toys against them. More on that later.
And I think we are a bit focused on the weapons side of things and not the system it self. Yes we know the factories are back up and running, but I am also going for the idea that and I said once already the stated affairs of the Sol System was the fighting to take it back from Amaris nearly wiped it out. And ComStar was always making sure folks knew this, as Cray reminded us, Sun Shield failing on Venus and Mars's issues along with the Belters and their issues etc...and if you think about it, they would keep this charade up since it bought them sympathy etc...imagine a group going around the other Houses asking for money to help rebuild certain things on Terra, like the Effile Tower and other historical things.
So we know they could make weapons, that has not been in doubt or questions, but what about the rest of the system, what about things like space stations/orbital habitats and space elevators, orbital factories etc... The other planets like Saturn and Jupiter have many moons, and they would be settled in some fashion. So let's shift to this part of things.
The idea that the system was open doesn't mean there were parts that would listed as off limits, and what better way to do that then to say yeah still to dangerous to fly through or by since we haven't cleaned up the mess there etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Edited by Karagin (08/08/18 09:37 AM)
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ghostrider
08/08/18 11:41 AM
66.74.61.223
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Another factor that could be used to help remove WOB is the factions within it. As stated in one of the novels, there were factions that had like 5 people in it, though there were many more with a lot more people. Gaining a sympathetic ear from some of them, or even the right one, could help the rebellion. Simply shutting off the SDS or even retargeting them to take on WOB forces comes to mind.
Now the less military side of it. Sitting at the jump point, you could see terraforming effects on Mars, as well as new stations, habitats, and such. Might even see the colonies on the moons of all the planets as well. I would think all jumpships have telescopes to help find out if they are in the right place, and if not, determine where they misjumped to.
The sun shield may have been left alone as it may have shown any visitors in the system something was done. Not sure if it was reflective, or if it just blocked sunlight from reaching the surface, but it would be noticeable.
The Mars ship yard being another thing they should be able to see. And even that, a simple ecm equipped probe should be able to get information, especially a ship that will return at a set date.
But there is a question with this one, though a little off subject.
Did comstar have any ship building facilities at the jump point?
The idea of trying to use station thrusters to move a jumpship from around a planet to the major jump points doesn't sound right. Even using a pirate point near the ship yard would be more dangerous for a new ship then would be worth using it.
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Cray
08/08/18 06:19 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Now the less military side of it. Sitting at the jump point, you could see terraforming effects on Mars, as well as new stations, habitats, and such. Might even see the colonies on the moons of all the planets as well. I would think all jumpships have telescopes to help find out if they are in the right place, and if not, determine where they misjumped to.
JumpShips do have good astronomical gear to pinpoint their location in any, even unknown star systems by looking at some distant landmarks like neutron stars, the galactic core, etc. However, BattleTech has fairly strict sensor rules on what can be detected at specific distances. Mapping planets from a jump point is outside the standard rules.
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The sun shield may have been left alone as it may have shown any visitors in the system something was done. Not sure if it was reflective, or if it just blocked sunlight from reaching the surface, but it would be noticeable.
The original planet-sized sunshield reduced the amount of sun falling on Venus while it continued to cool off - its crust had been soaked to 900F for several billion years. The upper surface was nice and habitable, but by a few hundred meters down it would've been hot, hotter than Iceland hot. Further, Venus gets twice the sunlight as Earth. Between the two, it was easier to control sunlight than pull heat out of the crust.
Amaris attempted to use the Venusian sunshield in a daffy idea of burning Kerensky's fleet. However, the spin-stabilized shield couldn't be shaped into the necessary parabola and tore itself apart when commanded to do so.
Venus wasn't in immediate trouble, but it was caught between a slow soak of heat coming out of the ground and increased sunlight. It was still habitable-ish in 3025 (see Comstar SB), 250 years after Amaris wrecked the shield, but was entering a runaway greenhouse condition as its seas began evaporating. By the late 3070s, it was a high pressure, high temperature hell world (see: JHS:Terra).
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The Mars ship yard being another thing they should be able to see.
The big shipyards were at Titan, not Mars, and those are the ship-sized structures not visible from jump points. Detection range for things like that is about 100,000km. However, they'd be well known from human intel sources.
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The idea of trying to use station thrusters to move a jumpship from around a planet to the major jump points doesn't sound right.
It's exactly what the thrusters are for, though. JumpShips are very mobile spacecraft compared to anything we can dream of in the real world. 0.1G ain't bad for getting around a star system.
However, the major Terran yards were at Titan, moon of Saturn. Saturn's right on the edge of Sol's proximity limit. It's a short hop from Titan to space where a KF drive will work.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
08/08/18 06:32 PM
72.176.187.91
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Thanks done with this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
08/08/18 06:32 PM
66.74.61.223
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For some odd reason, I would figure Saturn's gravity would interfer with a jump.
But I did get the planet of the ship yards wrong. That I do admit. I was thinking of the martial Olympics when I typed that.
So they changed the thrusters from barely keeping the jump ship in position at the jump point, to being able to pull out of planetary gravity wells?
I will grant some leeway, as it implies the sails being out.
If this is true, then why don't jumpships make large cargo runs into a system? Use shuttles to drop off goods, and avoid some of the dropships.
And thinking about it, that would mean the jump points could be pretty well ignored as you could just jump outside of Saturn's orbit. Or so it looks like from the statement. Or did they make the zenith and nadir jump points closer to earth then that?
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