Requiem
10/12/18 06:06 AM
58.175.193.140
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Would it have been a detriment to the game if a First Lord of a renewed Star League was to come to pass prior to the Clan Invasion?
On face value most would say yes, as this would be the end of the game, or would it?
The closest this has occurred was with the establishment of the Federated Commonwealth.
So hypothetically what if Victor Steiner Davion (heir to the FC) married Corrine Marik (Capt. General of the FWL) and then the Free Worlds League was amalgamated into the Federated Commonwealth to become a new Free Federated Commonwealth.
This new super state could then conquer the Draconis Combine after a lengthy war and therefore establishing a first Lord scenario.
But there are still small states and periphery states that are independent, could we assume they will attempt to establish an independent / neutrality state relationship with this new super power, thus they will recognise the new First Lord or risk destruction also or will they just ignore the situation?
However, Internal divisions would require a large and mobile military force to keep the peace, especially in the early years as internal factions would attempt to either re-establish the old orders or create new ones.
Thus as a stop-gap measure is required as many mercenary units would be hired to keep the peace where regular military is insufficient or utilized as a resistance force against the the new First Lord’s military (at this point renamed as the SLDF?)
Would Comstar attempt an open military action or in all probability support dissidents throughout the new Star League, through a double blind, increasing the chaos throughout the newly established Star League or will the First Circuit recognise the new First Lord?
Would Katherine Steiner Davion attempt a power grab? Resulting in a Civil war, as until Victor and Corrine produce an heir the new Star League could be considered to be on shaky grounds – as only an heir would stabilize the issue of succession.
And what of the Clans – what if they invaded to find a new Star League and a new First Lord?
I cannot see them accepting this situation – War – due to different ideologies as to what the Star League Means to each group.
Would this external force then cause the different dissident groups within the Inner Sphere give up their petty bickering and get behind the new First Lord to repel the invaders from the Deep Periphery? And what if they don’t?
Would these scenarios have been so bad for the game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/12/18 02:51 PM
66.74.61.223
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I believe if the IS did form the Star League before their invasion, they would have sent alot more clans into the IS, maybe even all of them, with a change in goals. Terra would not be the target, as much as removing the IS Star League and forming one from their views.
Unification of the IS would lead to the eventual fall of the game. It would give you some wars for a short while, but the fact the super power would dominate anyone left outside of it, that resisted.
Now a question of what if the Combine joined with the FC comes up. Granted, the concept of Corrine being on New Avalon, while victor was young, may well have stopped Victor from even looking at Omi.
But with this idea, the meeting on Outreach during what may no longer exist as the break in the clan offensive would not come to pass.
This idea could very well change everything beyond what is envisioned here.
Does Katherine go after Corrine, seeing her as the one in her way to power?
Does the rest of the family grow up in the same mindset?
Like Yvonne. She may well be totally different, but that wouldn't matter if Corrine was in charge while Victor leads the refusal forces to destroy which ever clan is picked.
That may well stop the civil war, as Katherine would have issues with manipulating Yvonne, as she is no long the one to rul the FS. And Corrine may well have Victor keep Katherine from becoming Archon of the LC. Even the assassination of Katrina may well have been avoided.
The 3039 war, may well have been the end of the combine, as FWL may well have backed the FC's assault on them. Or allowed more FC troops to move, as the FWL troops garrisoned units in the old CC. Even dropping what is needed on the FWL border would do so.
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Requiem
10/13/18 01:14 AM
58.175.193.140
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If all of the Clans did invade to destroy the new Star League, how do they determine whom the il-Clan is? … one Clan to rule them all.
After due thought I do not believe the the formation of new Star League would be the end of the game for it is a lot easier to conquer a galaxay than it is to rule or hold the galaxy together.
What I am suggesting is a Roman Empire setting …
• The periphery becomes the hordes of barbarians;
• Governments in exile could become the norm – and even a Jacobite rebellion or two could eventuate;
Initially there is no way the new SLDF would have an adequate force to hold the galaxy – the threat of invasion is the only thing keeping many a lord from outright rebellion.
As for Victor and Omika – who is to say they do not meet following the fall of Luthien and from there she becomes his mistress? So how would Corinne react is she found out …. Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned scenario?
As for the Clans, with their introduction it would be a continual war between the SLDF and their armies as neither side could admit defeat until the other is vanquished.
Thus if the Clans are repelled from the Inner Sphere a constant war within the deep periphery and deep space between the two realms could eventuate.
Katherine would need to remove both Corinne and Victor whist simultaneously ensuring the SLDF hail her as the new ruler to become the First Lady of the new Star League. Organizing this would require a grand Machiavellian feat.
As for the rest of the family – what is needed are loyal dukes – however what they get is a different matter.
The Change in the time line would be something like …
The 3039 War was the end of the Capellan Confederation
The Wedding between Victor and Corrine would have occurred early to mid 3050s.
With the fall of the Draconis Combine early/mid 3060s
With the Clan Invasion somewhere between late 3060s to early / mid 3070s
There would be no ending of wars for the major house units as well as for mercenaries
No, I believe after due thought the idea of a reborn Star League is not a bad idea once due thought is given to the scenario.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/13/18 05:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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There could be a two fold way to determine the Il-clan. Who destroys the most units the barbaric IS has and sends against them, and still use the first to reach terra. It could well cause the clans to 'divide' up the IS, and have each clan attack their 'slice'. So all the periphery would be a staging ground, as some would hit the old CC territories as well as the FS.
Hell, just a race to terra with the clans around the entire IS might work.
This would be one of the worse case scenarios for the IS. Not able to concentrate their forces like the 4 clan invasion corridor. They would have to deal with all areas.
I will say a few places would be an issue, as there is the few large realms in the Periphery, such as the Concordat, Magestry, and such.
It may result in full destruction of them, if the clanners decide to punish them for causing the rebellion to have any hold. IE having the SLDF spread out instead of being in the Hemegony.
The time line might be off, as a new League would push up the clans invasion. Might even be within a year of the League forming.
Civil wars and revolts would be the only real fights if the League held. Even the units from the houses sent to fill the Leagues forces would be forced into violating their oaths. Their home area revolts, attacks or is attacked by another. Imagine a Suns unit being sent in to put down another Suns unit hitting a combine world. And with the merger of the FWL in the FC, especially with the CC destroyed, it would shut down the possibility of small groups to do anything. Overwhelming force would be brought to bare. No single regiment, but 10 to 20 could be sent in.
And as I said before. Fighting civil wars is not fun.
Not saying canon is any better, but the merger of all states closes most of the fun of the game. Risk and the chance of losing big drives some playing groups. Otherwise, you could just build artillery and have some front line spotters with enough to hold the enemy in place and shell the hell out of them. No fun there.
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Requiem
10/13/18 07:51 PM
58.175.193.140
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I agree the First to Terra scenario would still be the most likely scenario of determining whom the iL-Clan will be. Though attacking from multiple staging grounds – including the old CC etc – would become logistically impossible, this is why the Clans originally bunched together coming through the FRR to keep their supply lines as efficient as possible, otherwise the time taken to resupply any other clan would be considerable and would again open these supply chains to attack.
The Cans do not have the capability or the time taken to resupply a major army attacking via Canopus – time taken to go from the Clan Worlds to the original deep periphery was 5-6 months thus to increase it to Canopus space would be 18 months plus – thus making it totally unfeasible to do so.
Plus do they have the ships necessary to keep multiple fronts open at the same time – if they could have done this in the canon verse I believe they would have opened multiple fronts – thus because they didn’t they are unable to do so.
One Invasion corridor / two at the most though close together, and at a short distance to the Clan Home Worlds only, due to logistical constraints.
As for the idea the Clan knowing about the re-establishment of the Star League.
First Wolfs Dragoons have gone rogue – the information they are supplying to their former masters is spotty at best.
Second if they did know about the reformation the warden faction could use this as an argument not to invade just as the crusaders used the argument of the outbound light as their argument to invade. This argument could drag on for years before a consensus is reached. Thus delaying the invasion from 3050 to who knows when.
Possible War scenario ….
• Civil War due to succession dispute;
• Revolts / wars of independence;
• Governments in exile returning to reclaim their realm;
• SLDF invading the Periphery to ensure their compliance to the Star League;
• Rouge Dukes – provinces (Isle of Skye) declaring independence;
• Two large corporations competing for new resources;
• SLDF versus realms that were originally declaring neutrality;
• Two Lords on the same planet fighting to determine who is superior;
• Garrison jobs would still be required as well as anti-pirate and objective raids;
Plus I am sure there could be other scenarios …. So it is not as bad as everyone believes it to be – just because the Star League has become a reality this still will not remove the years of animosity between people. The old border wars would still flare up time to time.
Give it some thought … there are still many scenarios for wars and battles to start … it is not the doom and gloom of the Battletech Universe most believe it to be. The new SLDF will never have enough forces to use overwhelming firepower as they are stretched too thin throughout the Universe (especially when the Clans turn up as the majority of the House Troops and resources will go towards this War) – thus back home many Dukes / Large Corporations may attempt to set up their own little empire whilst simultaneously providing lip service to the First Lord and the new Star League.
Thus a group of wandering marshals (disguised as mercenaries) would be required to investigate these dukes and put them down if they are in violation of the rules …. Another scenario that could be considered.
So again just because the superpowers have been removed does not limit the games scenarios for battles – only the imagination of the players when constructing a viable game can do this.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/13/18 09:56 PM
66.74.61.223
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Even a renewed League, would not change the idea that the IS is still a run down barbarian haven. Hell, the more prestigious routes may be the ones with the longer supply lines, as it would be considered more of a challenge then the shorter ones. Given clanner thoughts at this time, it would fit.
Now the Outbound Light could well have the information of the new League with it when it is taken by the Jaguars. It wasn't long after that, the clans moved. So if the League was done before they got there, the information could be passed on. Also, there are vague rumors that the clans did have other intellegience working the IS.
The Dragoons were sent in to confirm and expand on the little they had gotten before hand.
The numbers of jumpships does pose an issue. I don't believe canon would have used more clans during the initial invasion, as it would not have allowed the IS to survive long enough to rally.
As for supplies, you have stated they would build factories in the periphery, so why not that idea with the longer routes?
Ammo would be the biggest thing with the clanners concepts. Replacement mechs and such wasn't considered a large thing at the time.
Had a third idea of how to determing the ilclan. Number of worlds taken. A few clans could very well hang back and surge when the others were exhausted. It wouldn't be considered honorable by most, but it is a valid tactic. The one that reaches Terra is the ilclan. I think a few would break normal traditions to win that goal.
What would you say after they won? They cheated? It wasn't fair? This is before they were corrupted by the IS, so doubtful anything like that would be done.
Now challenges would be issued, but not sure if the ilclan decision could be challenged.
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Requiem
10/14/18 03:06 AM
58.175.193.140
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Quote: Even a renewed League, would not change the idea that the IS is still a run down barbarian haven
Your opinion of the Inner Sphere is from a Crusader Clan. Thus a little biased?
AS for supply lines and logistics – if it is not logistically possible then it is a no go scenario – that is unless you switch to all energy weapons all the time and you adopt a gorilla warfare tactic of living off the land – plus you recognise that there will be no new pilots for those lost in battle whatsoever for the 18 months of the war, and if the Inner Sphere can halt the next supply run you can extend out the no new piolets to 36 months or even more as the remaining Clans could consider you invasion corridor lost and just cut that Clan off as a distraction for the Inner Sphere to deal with – as a trial of absorption is called upon a weak Clan that has underbid and lost all credibility in the eyes of the other Clans!
As for the Outbound Light – yes they may have but this still puts us back to Crusader Vs. Warden politics – and in all reality how long did it take just to reach the Wolfs Dragoons compromise?
This would have taken far longer! As what little information they had came from this single source only.
And as for other intelligence operatives within the Inner Sphere – dream on – the map of the exodus road was broken into parts you need all (if not most) to complete the map.
Plus the individual Clans are all too self-absorbed with their own politics / way of life to send an expedition back to the Inner Sphere – this is just wishful thinking. If one did would this not go against the will of Kerensky hence would they not be reprimanded severely for doing so?
Would the other Clans not see this as an underhanded way of gaining intelligence to become the iL-Clan?
The Cannon issue of the number of Clans is an issue, though this number was more about not thinking it fully through than anything else.
The issue remains if they did have the resources they would have used them for logistical support, as they did not use them they did not have them.
Building factories is a good/bad idea – however you would need two to five years to build the factories / support cities for the workers to get them on line. Then there is the issue of security once again – what if they were found by Inner Sphere forces – the transfer in knowledge as to how to build certain weapons etc would be catastrophic to the Clans – would they even consider risking it? As you pointed out previously ammunition maybe but nothing beyond that.
Sorry, but I do not see number of worlds taken as a valid reason to determine iL-Clan it is Terra only! It is capture the flag , this is the only realistic outcome.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/14/18 03:33 AM
66.74.61.223
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The canon perception is why the clans thought the IS was barbarians occupying paradise.
The Dragoon debate was far longer then the debate once the Outbound Light was taken. With the information on it, the clans would probably have gone to war faster. The wardens would still try to fight it, but they would be even smaller on their base. The Wolves were not all wardens, and with this information, may very well have sided to remove this fake League from existence. Or it may have pushed some crusaders into the no go camp.
So building an ammo factory or two near other points of entry isn't possible?
That kind of goes counter to what was said in other threads.
Also, I don't think as few clans or even units would be sent in this scenario. I think most of any clan that goes would be the case.
And as for other intelligence operatives within the Inner Sphere – dream on – the map of the exodus road was broken into parts you need all (if not most) to complete the map.
Still haven't seen Wolfnet existed before the Dragoons got into the IS?
And the idea of the HPGs along the exodus route may have been there before the invasion was set to go. But since no hard writing on it, this is another either way scenario.
If one did would this not go against the will of Kerensky hence would they not be reprimanded severely for doing so?
Did the argument of the clans inception going against Alexanders vision drop out of memory? The suggestion they were already so far off his path, they were alien to that thought.
would they even consider risking it?
Considering they did not worry about losing tech/items in the original invasion, I don't see why they would if they hit multiple venues. The lack of security that has been harped on is the same thing. Only here, there would be more units in combat, lessening the IS being able to even look for anything like this. And before anything goes into effect, warships parked near the factories could well destroy any raiders before they landed. And the regimental size fighter groups probably would not exist at this time, without a crystal ball to see the future.
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Requiem
10/14/18 03:37 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: With the information on it, the clans would probably have gone to war faster
Probably does not mean certainty – thus it is up to each game-master to determine the outcome.
So the question that needs to be asked is what would be best for the game …
Going too early and the Clans superior technology would make it too one sided;
Going at a later time would make the game more balanced …. So in all probability they would invade then?
Building factories are possible …. With that in mind you also must realise Fenrir units can invade and capture these facilities within the game plus any other facilities the Clans may establish … they are completely viable targets.
Sorry but Regimental Aerospace units have been known to exist prior to the Clans Invasion
So even with warship protection …. Mass Regimental Aerospace units where each fighter has Alamo missiles, how good are the warships chances now?
Sorry, I cannot believe in the idea that the HPG stations were set up before the invasion was set to go. As the entire fleet made its way along the exodus road – this in all probability makes more sense.
Question what would happen in one Clan on its own returned to the Inner Sphere and returned to the Clan Home Worlds – then presented the information they had gathered within the Grand Chamber with the full knowledge that they had done this behind the backs of everyone else?
Their enemies would use it against them as a reason for a trial of annihilation / absorption would they not?
Their allies would be too stunned by their outright brazen action to help them.
Only once the dust had settled would the information obtained be discussed.
So one less Clan to worry the Inner Sphere …. If you want to go down this path
In addition all the Clans mobilizing against the Inner Sphere would never happen … The Clans Competitive nature would demand that only the best could go – all others must sit the invasion out. So at best only one third of the Clans would invade whilst two thirds must sit it out.
Remember the hubris nature of each Clan’s Khan and Sa-Khan – they are too blinkered by their own perceived power to view the situation with any rational thought.
Viewing the Inner Sphere as a bunch of barbarians that they can easily squash just goes to show how blinkered they are.
Thus are we looking at going back to the thought process of the Vietnam War? We are a super-power who can easily win considering the enemy we are going up against?
Underestimating the ability of your enemy is a quick way to loosing the war?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/14/18 11:05 PM
66.74.61.223
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An early League would not have the Fenrir units active. Unless you have change the parameters without a reason. The IS did not know the clans were coming. So making those units before they got in the IS wouldn't have happened.
Ok. I did misspeak with the fighter regiments. Some did exist, but not in the style presented to counter the clans. They were part of RCTs. Not as numerous as suggested in other threads. So I will grant that.
The alamo missiles were not started until AFTER the clans invaded, so during this possibility, would not have existed yet. Or did they start making the anti clan tactics back in the 3025 era?
The counter question to the HPG network is how far in advance did they get put up? They could well have done it during the exodus, which is highly unlikely, to have put it up as the clan forces were mobilized to attack. And with this, the idea of having some ships with HPG along the route hidden to get contact from the home worlds is a possibility. The clans did have intel before and after the dragoons were sent.
There is one more thing about the exodus road. I seriously doubt they followed the entire route, and almost bet the skipped a chunk of it. They were zigzagging along as they left. Not anywhere close to efficient for the invasion. So their year trip may have been more like 7 months, maybe less straight out.
I do not remember seeing any orders suggesting each clan could not send their on intel/recon. It would be wasteful, and no one said that recon was to be an invasion force. In fact, each clan should have sent something to make sure they were getting all the updated information, even if it was just surveilence craft.
I could see the clans still forces trials to see who goes. But then I could see them doing it enmasse, and then wiping out the lesser clans as they remove the threat of the IS League. Even with the trials, they would be less strict on things, as they would be taking on more of the IS at once.
The Falcons and Jaguars took their routes as they knew there would be more resistance along those routes. If they were that arrogant, they would have made sure they were the only ones to invade. And no reserve clans needed.
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Requiem
10/15/18 04:39 AM
58.175.193.140
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True, an early league would not have Fenrir units, however with the invasion of the Clans how long would it take before they are established and become an active military unit – some-time within 12 to 18 months sounds about right.
Alamo missiles were around during the Amaris Crisis as well as the First Succession War (as per Sarna Wiki)
The HPG network, in all probability, was established as the Clan fleet was moving towards the Deep Periphery. Thus as the fleet was progressing towards the Inner Sphere they could keep in contact with the Clan Home Worlds.
Have a look at the exodus map and that of the invasion map – two completely different exit points - once just above the FS / DC border the other into the new FRR so the idea it was established that far back does not hold water – plus there is the issue of how surprised the Clans were when they were informed of the Succession Wars and the destruction this had wrought upon the Inner Sphere – if they were up and running then they would not have been so surprised at this knowledge – also if they were in place what would have happened if ComStar’s Explore Corps discovered them?
Sorry but I disagree, the Clans did not have any intel on the Inner Sphere when they dispatched the Wold Dragoons reconnaissance force – if they did why did they nearly blow their cover and give them Warships as well as ‘Mechs that had become extinct from the period of the Star league plus new ‘Mechs that do not exist in the Inner Sphere.
The Cannon books stated a trip home from the inner Sphere to the Clan Home Worlds was five to six months – so round trip twelve to fourteen months sounds about right as once the ship returns it will need a complete going over before is sent back.
Sorry but I must disagree again – if a Clan did not win a place in the invasion they were not allowed to send anything – recon or otherwise – they had not earnt the right to participate, thus they could only stay at home and observe from afar as those who were more worthy could participate.
The Clans entire culture / society is all about superiority – if you are not one of the chosen then you are relegated to the ignominious / unworthy – the same principle would be applied to those Clans that had earnt their place – they would never allow the unworthy to tag along, they would exclude these Clans and lord it over them that they are part of the chosen and all others that did not achieve a place are somewhat less than them.
So in all probability I would stick with the original Clan members from the Cannon history –However it is up to each game master if they wanted to keep one invasion corridor or expand it to two corridors.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/15/18 11:01 PM
66.74.61.223
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The alamo missile statement was they were not in use at the time of the clan invasions. Hell, even the canon invasion didn't use them, but we are talking the alt. That was like the Fenrir units. Put out after the clans had started their invasion per your alt.
Ok. Where did the FS have either the Exodus or invasion point at? The SLDF left basically north, thru the DC, and came at the FRR/DC/LC borders. Yes the FC came from FS and LC but it is no where near the original FS borders. The Minnisota/Wolverines may have left thru the Outworlds area, but that is not being dealt with here.
It was originally stated the Dragoons would update and clarify the intel the clans had on the IS. They were supposed to get a better knowledge of how each state worked, including strengths and weakness of the military.
Also, there is nothing said that the any clans could not send in recon at any time after the exodus. A few units during the succession wars was thought to have been ex SLDF. Now unless that changed in newer books, that should still be there. Wiether rumor or fact may not have been established.
Sticking with the four original clans with the League being done early is hobbling the clans. And having multiple corridors is only a suggestion if they wanted to hit all the states at once. They could well have expanded the original one to have more then the 4 driving into the IS.
The reserve clan would be unworthy, as they did not make the invasion forces, so why would they even back up the others? Or even be allowed to go?
Other then the pacify the wardens crying about the IS MIGHT resist better then the council thought they would?
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Requiem
10/15/18 11:45 PM
58.175.193.140
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The Alamo missiles were being held within high security bunkers – however with the first sighting of a Warship they would have been distributed to units within the field. Then when Turtle Bay occurred – every House unit on the Clan front line should have been issued with them.
Their aerospace fighters, should have then been provided with orders that if they could destroy a warship they were ordered to proceed along that line – ie. they were expendable.
As for my Fenrir units – their aerospace fighters would have definitely been issued with them prior to their exploration within the Deep Periphery.
We are back (again) to hack writing / game developers fiat that they were never discussed / utilized when they they should have been.
It is quite astonishing that the Jihad was when they were first utilized un-mass.
The Dragoons were the Clan’s first real intelligence gathered upon the Inner Sphere in hundreds of years - initially this was good information – however over time this became spotty and may have been corrupted when the Dragoons shifted their allegiance from the Clans to the Inner Sphere.
If the Clans had have sent a recon mission back into the Inner Sphere there would have been a mention of it somewhere – as it was never discussed it NEVER happened!
Rumour does not equal fact – they could have been Wolverine for all anyone knew.
Four + two reserves is hobbling the Clans? How many times have the writers hobbled the Inner Sphere when it comes to the original Canon writing of the Invasion?
If the reserve units were unworthy then why were they included in the original cannon writings?
I might consider two extra Clans allowed into the game however the Inner Sphere must also be allowed up to (and maybe beyond this) 3075 era ‘Mechs plus they must have more Regimental Combat Teams etc than was originally included in the Cannon writings (say 30 more?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/16/18 02:44 AM
66.74.61.223
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In an effort to discover what had happened to the Inner Sphere during their exile, the Grand Council agreed to form Intelser, an intelligence service tasked with gathering data on the current situation. Its agents, masquerading as traders, managed to infiltrate a number of Periphery states outside the Inner Sphere. Relying on second-hand information what they reported back was confusing, but in broad strokes confirmed that the Inner Sphere had been devastated by the Succession Wars and was seemingly open to invasion. The Crusaders felt the time was right for their return.
This is in the wiki under clan invasion, just before it discusses the Dragoon Compromise.
I know this was discussed in the printed books as well, but don't remember which one.
This was sent out between 2980 and 3000 as the entries before and after it are placed.
Edited by ghostrider (10/16/18 02:52 AM)
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Requiem
10/16/18 06:47 AM
58.175.193.140
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Well you are right the wiki does indicate they sent in a team acting as traders to gather second hand knowledge only.
However, this lead to the introduction of the Wolfs Dragoons reconnaissance compromise.
This wikki page went on to say “To the Crusaders, the formation of the Federated Commonwealth suggested the Inner Sphere risked reconstituting the Star League on their own, without the guiding hand of the Clans, while for the Wardens the fact that Great Houses still fought among each other meant a new Star League was a long way off and an invasion would require a large-scale occupation of the entire Inner Sphere, something for which the Clans were ill-suited to undertake”.
So what would have happened if the Star League was reconstituted before they invaded?
The Crusaders would have to admit that the Star League has been reborn / occurred and without their guiding hand just as Wardens said that it would happen.
So where is the political reason for the Clans to invade now?
Would the Crusaders say that without their guiding hand on the tiller of state this Star League is a complete farce!
But this does not deny the fact the Star League is reborn.
Thus if the Crusader Clans did invade is it not now the duty of the Warden Clans to protect the Star League against this external threat? (just as it says in the wiki “Many others however believed it was not Kerensky's intention to return to the Inner Sphere but remain apart, developing separately and returning only in the event the Inner Sphere was threatened from external sources”.)
Thus, it is thus quite ironic that the external threat is that of the Crusader Clans themselves.
Thus we will have a civil war raging between the two not only within the clan home worlds but also within the Inner Sphere.
One intent upon conquering and ruling the other intent upon protecting and guiding.
Can we not now say that this scenario would is the logical consequence of reforming the Star League before the Clans Invaded due to their differences in their ‘underling’ philosophy.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/16/18 12:04 PM
66.74.61.223
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The questions of each clanner themselves would have to be decided on wiether they would do the attack or try and protect the IS.
That also includes wiether they believe the new League was legit, could sustain themselves, wasn't an insult to the old league, as well as things like this meaning they would invade the clan worlds, once they found them.
And this would be eventual, as a new League would start pushing to search and expand into the periphery, making it part of the chaotic IS.
It may well insult them beyond the protectionism ideas of the wardens.
Then again, it may cause the crusaders to have to really think about their invasion. I think their plans would have to be pushed up, otherwise, their philosophical ideas would die.
Also a point that has to be decided is if the IS needs protection, now that the League has been reformed.
Granted, it would need some time to find out if the League was real or just in name only.
One more issue with this is history. Would they believe the house lords, now in control of the league, attack the ex SLDF once they found them? Given their 'thirst' for blood, I could see that being used to get the wardens on the side to remove the house lords from command of the League.
The idea of once *insert name*, always *insert name*.
One idea with why the Alamo was not used until the Jihad, may well have been the 'once one is used, it will become standard' concept. Since WOB started using nukes, the rest would use them. Also, I do think this was a bad idea in the story line. I can understand they needed to really piss off people against WOB, but this isn't a good way to do so. In my opinion.
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Requiem
10/16/18 07:23 PM
58.175.193.140
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So, therefore if the Star League was reborn prior to the Clan’s Invasion this would result in a period of evaluation by the Clans to determine if the League is attempting to return what the Star League represented.
I would have to laugh at this ….. as the Clans attempt to determine what the Star League represented with all its freedoms, liberties, art, culture when comparing it to their own repressed culture how many would look around and see how far they have strayed from the principles of the of the Original Star League.
Their ability to act as a judge on what the Star League truly represents is quite laughable as they are as about as far as you can get from what the true Star League represents.
Question: How can the expansion of the Inner Sphere’s new Star League into the Deep Periphery Insult the Clans? Because during the Star League era did not the Inner Sphere (and by proxy the Star League) have expansionist movements. Thus should this not be seen as a normal thing for the Star League to do.
So for as long as the new Star League endures we can assume that only the most hardened of Crusaders will not attack.
Bust what f they did – refusing to give up their philosophical ideals? Using the pretext of terrorist activities and almost constant battles throughout the inner Sphere as proof that this is not a true Star League but a farce of a League.
What would the Clan wardens do then?
Send a force to hunt hem down?
This plot twist could become an interesting story line.
In my opinion - The complete Jihad storyline was a mistake – and the game developers were quite aware of this due to the decision of not producing novels of this era. But there have been too many mistakes of the years – and now we find ourselves in a situation where the game is hardly developing at all and we have to wait another 12 months for next part of broken fortress to be released and all new books can be accessed by an e-reader (no paper in sight).
Can we say the game needs help now for if it doesn’t receive it how much longer will it exist except as a computer game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/16/18 09:44 PM
66.74.61.223
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I was thinking real, as in not doing exactly what it did do. The first lord not putting all other concerns behind expanding their own realm. The League was meant to benefit all, not the house currently heading it.
And I will agree with part of what is said. The clans will not care so much about the arts and other freedoms the original League stood for. Most of the crusaders, and even some wardens would get the idea that no one beside the specific person could hope to guide the League in the direction needed to in order to survive.
They are the masters, not the servants like the old SLDF.
Now I did find out at least one book they had about the intelsel. Clan Wolf Sourcebook #1842, page 24 had it. I knew I seen it before I joined the site here. Probably elsewhere, but that is one of the books I have inside the house. Some of my books are in the garage.
So the plot twist could be the catalyst for the clan civil war? Even inside each clan, units might well go one way or the other with the ideas?
Maybe even go as far as the civil war is how the IS finds out about the clans? Refugees being chased into the IS? Completely distort the entire event with such a thing?
Might even set off civil wars in the IS, as factions decide to help one side or the other. Mainly to gain power.
And for insulting the clans.
I would think the arrogance of the common clanner would believe the IS doesn't have what it takes to properly deal with the periphery. And to think they could try and claim future clan space? That foolishness would need to be punished.
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Requiem
10/17/18 08:30 PM
58.175.193.140
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I agree any First Lord must put the welfare of the entire League before that of their home realm.
Their ability to achieve this will therefore be determined by each game-master …. though the economy, outside and internal factors will determine how well they are able to complete this task.
However there will be destabilizing individuals and groups who would attempt to undermine any gain the Star League and the First Lord attempt to achieve in order to prop up their own agenda.
Such as Katherine Steiner-Davion (in attempt to promote her candidacy as a future First Lord); For the Draconis Combine – the Black Dragon Society to even House Davion’s Duke of Robinson – as his view is former Draconis Combine worlds should be returned to his control – could prove a source of tension between the First Lord and one of his own Dukes.
As for the Clans this situation of a pre-existing new Star League is difficult to determine ….
I guess it would come down to what each game group would consider the most exciting adventure
• The Crusaders attack – Wardens following to defend;
• Civil War first (upon the Clan Home Worlds) – then?;
• Warden Refugees seeking asylum followed by all the Crusaders.
As for the Clans Claiming the Deep Periphery as theirs – How big a region of space do they consider theirs … as the Deep Periphery is five months away from the Clan Home Worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/17/18 11:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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How large is the IS?
Would the ego of the clans think they should not control as much or more of space then the barbarians do?
Or would it be focused on taking back paradise from the IS houses?
I think the waste of the IS might cause the clans to decide to keep them from wasting what is between the homes worlds and the IS.
But some how, the clans hating waste doesn't seem to come about with certain things, like live fire fights, or sending in teams of lower caste members to do something that only a few skilled people should be doing.
Which brought up a point about the throwing hordes of people to do lowly tasks.
How many techs were sent with the invading clans to deal with even moving cargo, and working on the units from combat damages?
But this is a little off subject.
Interesting thought came up. What would happen to the crusader clans that invaded the IS, if the wardens were to take their territory in the home area?
Basically a way to prevent them from doing to much damage to the IS, which they think should be protected, even if it means from the clans.
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Requiem
10/18/18 02:28 AM
58.175.193.140
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When considering the Clan’s decision to own the Deep Periphery, when you look at a map to consider the distance it does appear to be too far to be considered part of the Clan Empire as it only becomes of strategic importance when they consider to invade the Inner Sphere. Before that it is just empty space of no real strategic value to the Clans.
The number of technicians assigned to any clan unit is unknown (as far as I know) this is another factor that was never discussed …. This again would come back to house rules ….
Say for a trinary
• Five Astech Plus one Master
• Service Staff – cook / cleaning / logistics / Administration etc – ten to fifteen
• One Medical Doctor plus two technicians
• Five ammunition specialists
• Crew of six – communications specialists
• Other ancillary individuals – ten to fifteen
However, as for the technicians / ammunition specialists, medical staff, administration and communication staff would come from the Clan Home Worlds. All other individuals required (together with any heavy vehicles required for logistics, heavy ‘Mech recovery, engineering vehicles) would come from the local captured population.
As for Wardens Vs. Crusaders within the home worlds – mass trails of possessions would be the norm. I doubt the Crusaders would go for a trial of absorption / annihilation unless their opponent Warden Clan’s numbers are reduced to numbers that could be considered a viable target.
Initially it would be kept as civil as possible until one side or the other clearly steps over the line then …. grand melee from there on out?
Even when in the Inner Sphere they would attempt to keep to their rules of warfare – whilst attempting to educate the ‘barbarians’ of the values of utilizing these rules.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/18/18 12:18 PM
66.74.61.223
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The number of techs leads back to the limited space on the ships heading in. If they send in alot more people then really needed, would the fleets have the room for them all. Say 10 or so techs per military unit, like mechs, with 2 to 4 per elemental.
Even less room for necessaries, especially those clans that would not use IS supplies including food.
It does also ask if the trial for the 15 year truce would happen. Operations Scorpion would probably not happen, as Walterly would realize the IS would respond, as the League was more organized, or so you would hope.
A thought just came up. We know the clans built the Dragoons space station. And it was suggested they would have more of that design. Simple using one (or more) for munitions and maybe even runs of weapons may well happen.
It could well support those needed to run it as well as having support ships for things like ores/smelters on worlds to support the stations.
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Requiem
10/18/18 07:00 PM
58.175.193.140
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We can say there would be limited space for techs to be part of the invasion force – what we cannot say is to what exactly those numbers actually are.
I would presume that the Clans would demand 100% combat repair efficiency at all times.
Therefore how many techs and senior techs would this represent – one ‘Mech / Aerospace fighter has one tech and for five ‘Mechs / fighters you gain one ammunition specialist / senior technician.
For elementals – two to three technicians per 5 suits
To me this sounds a reasonable base amount – it also allows for groups of technicians to congregate when a ‘Mech / Fighter has sustained severe damage and requires a long period of time to fix.
Thus they have the capability of a “MASH unit” for the minor stuff / “major hospital” for the major repair work when fixing their ’Mechs / Fighters / Elementals.
On a side note it is interesting that the Clans do not field support vehicles - Heavy recovery Vehicles – Battlefield ‘Mech Repair Facilities – it appears as though this is just done of the fly as it were.
Whereas the Inner Sphere have dedicated teams to get their machines operational within a short period of time if necessary. That is if the Inner Sphere uses multiple attack waves upon the Clans within a short period of time (such as vehicles) their ability to repair this damage within the filed is negligible – If followed with a ‘Mech assault they would have to no ability to fix the damage before heading back to the battlefield.
Thus what would happen if a general considered his armour expendable and he kept striking at then until the Clan’s ‘Mechs had all sustained severe damage – then he sent in his mechs as a coup de grace?
I believe if the Inner Sphere was on the verge of re-establishing a Star League – Operation Scorpion would become a more sinister plan – It would be the undermining of the First Lord at every turn by supplying his enemies with information and weapons to destabilize the new Star League. Once it collapses, the First Circuit would hope that there would be a period of mass anarchy and war – then it could be quite conceivable for ComStar to achieve its goal and send the ComGuard out to establish a new “Blakean” League under the First Circuits Control.
Yes, I agree it is conceivable that the Clans should have had support stations containing smelters / refineries / technical plants for the manufacture of all of their weapon systems – however the game designers made an Oops moment and did not include them.
In all reality I believe these ships should have been established and included in the game as a source for all their re-supply material, located in the deep periphery with the ability to mobile from one system to the other as required. My Fenrir units would then have a devil of a time in finding and capturing / destroying them – however their source materials (asteroid belts containing precious metals / gems) would be the first place you would start looking for them. As transporting minerals from the surface of a planet would become too prohibitive over time to support a space station manufacturing plant.
They would have provided all gamers with another adventure point within the Deep Periphery and expanded the games overall appeal.
Thus can I say the developers made another Oops moment – this would have made a great game supplement to the invasion?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/19/18 02:30 AM
66.74.61.223
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The lack of salvage teams may well be because of the way their trials work. There isn't a huge rush after the battle is over to grab mechs. Hell. With the way the clans fight, there may not be much of the unit left when they are done anyways.
But I will agree. I have not seen any recovery units, nor even really heard of them in the books.
Waves would be the wrong tactic depending on the units they face. Armor, ammo and replace pods for omnis is the reason. Internal damage would have to wait.
Regular non omnis would have the issues.
The limits of ammo was one of the biggest issues with the clanners. But I guess large waves might work.
I want to say some canon battles did have vehicles being used to bleed the clanners dry. I want to say the longer ranges of the clan weapons as well as trying to fit all the units onto dropships or even the field, as the rules would get in the way. 2 vehicles per hex. Any sort of woods destroys a unit moving in formation other then single file, and that is just stupid in a fight. Take out the lead unit, and the column is halted.
Why would you believe shipping ores to a station would be prohibited?
They have space factories in the 2750 book, and I would bet they put more in after BMR. All of those stations need resources as well as air for any workers on them. I was going to say smelters would need air, as a furnace style comes to mind, but then I realized, they can use a reactors molten fuel to liquify the ores.
Endosteel and Ferrous Fiber armor have to be made in low-g/zero-g according to their own description.
There is no reason why the station has to be a the jump point. Not sure about a large station being moved, but I could see smaller ones being done. Or put inside say a mammoth or behemoth dropship.
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Requiem
10/19/18 06:19 AM
58.175.193.140
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I agree the issue of pods for omni-mechs does does an issue.
However without a field replacement vehicle for pods can we assume the issue becomes mute – do they need a dropship nearby to complete field work then?
The secondary issue is field repair for armour, ammo and internal damage – they do not have the ability to make any field repairs replace ammunition without a dedicated vehicle?
Thus by utilizing mass waves to deplete their ammunition they attack and keep on attacking using Mechs does this not cut their damage down to energy weapons only.
So if an inner sphere force can prolong the battle – the Clans ability to survive is reduced?
I could very easily see the Draconis Combine units utilising this method.
As for mining in space – if you have a large asteroid it is easier to mine than using a shuttle as a dump truck to fill up then fly to the station drop its cargo off then fly back – all whilst a mining operation is going on the surface of the planet. Duration and resource expenditure would be very high (fuel for the shuttle + manpower + specialist mining vehicles + time to set up the mine and get it operational)
Rather than parking the station next to an asteroid filed – then you have industrial mechs that can cut up an asteroid to bite size pieces then fly these pieces into a crusher unit that leads into a foundry unit – productivity levels of doing it this way would be way higher …. Plus it would give old freeborn warriors something to do in their retirement when they hit 30 rather than a solhama unit.
Plus doesn’t the thought of industrial asteroid mining mechs flying through space just sounds way cool (plus they would be armed with a laser of some kind that is used to cut up asteroids – what damage could they do in combat?)
Plus if the Fenrir units got their mits on them – what damage could they do to opening up a warship like an elemental does to a “mech?
Doesn’t the thought of owning a mech like this excite the imagination just a little? …. For me Hell Yes!!!!!
Plus when the Bears start making their Leviathan Carriers …. Would the Clans that assisted in this project use the knowledge gleamed in this project to make not only large factory ships but floating fortresses as well?
Again with a little more thought opening the Deep Periphery during the Clan Invasion as an alternate story arc would have produced exciting results that we are coming up with now.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
10/19/18 05:10 PM
66.74.61.223
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The clans should have had more then a few examples of automated units. The ones described in the original mechwarrior book tended to be from the League. I haven't seen much about them in the 3000 time line era, that were newly built.
Honestly, having a crusher/smelter placed on or very near the mining sight would be the way to go. Then you only have to more the finished ores, or atleast take out most of the impurities. This would decrease the amount of crap that goes with the needed items.
The fuel could be an issue, if you don't use the sun scoop method for getting more. Then again, that is also saying that none of the sources may be with or near the ores themselves.
We know from the upgrading issues the FS had with the factory making Centurions, that they had automated factories in the IS.
And would Comstar have opened their archives to the reborn League, where they would have found out about the 'hidden' worlds?
This also leads to asking if WOB would have attacked earth.
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csadn
10/21/18 01:18 AM
50.53.22.4
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I just wonder what's going to happen to the Clans when one of them reaches Terra, starts digging through ComStar's files, and discovers that message from Kurita Minoru to Kurita Jinjiro which confirms the Davions were supposed to replace the Camerons as head of the SL should anything befall the Camerons.... (P.56, 1st-edition _House Davion_ sourcebook.)
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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ghostrider
10/21/18 02:56 AM
66.74.61.223
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I like that one.
It would either destroy the crusaders goals, or ignite a genocidal war.
And yet, I could see both happening, with conflicts all over clan space and the IS.
Those finding it, may destroy it, to make sure no one knows about it, or they might showcase it, removing alot of resistance to them taking over. Though I do wonder if they will have an issue with the Steiner-Davion line.
What a mess this whole thing could be. Maybe even ignite something like the jihad and nukes start raining on any place they could.
In canon, that would have to happen after the republic issues.
Though it would be interesting if they had the clans hack the HPGs with old back doors that no one removed in the 300 plus years. And I do think they would have had them. The HPGs have not undergone a full rewrite that I have even heard of rumors.
Much like the IBM pc's. Command dot com runs the system. Delete it, and you screw up windows. Have to put it back in.
And I would think the League had some codes for their spies to send things without even the coms network knowing about it.
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Cray
10/21/18 02:47 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Endosteel and Ferrous Fiber armor have to be made in low-g/zero-g according to their own description.
Nitpick: Only endosteel. Ferro-fibrous doesn't need zero-G for manufacturing.
Per Tech Manual, Endosteel is attempting to suppress metallurgical segregation in its highly alloyed composition by using zero-G.
Ferro-fibrous adds diamond fibers to the steel layer of standard armor, which, while chemically tricky, doesn't need zero-G.
But, yes, the small demand for endo-steel means a facility could reasonably fit in a DropShip.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (10/21/18 02:49 PM)
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ghostrider
10/21/18 04:27 PM
66.74.61.223
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So adding additional diamond layers to an armor makes it lighter and protects better?
Standard armor using a diamond monofilament in it's construction.
I guess it would be a small demand for a factory in the field supplying repair parts. I was going to say it would be more then a little, as more then a few mechs are made with it. But this isn't dealing with mass production.
Had to check before saying it, but they changed ferrous fiber armor. Doesn't say low g needed to make, so I was wrong there. It does say the fiber armor has woven layers of ferrous steel and ferrous titanium.
Edited by ghostrider (10/21/18 04:30 PM)
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