Requiem
02/15/19 04:46 AM
58.175.193.140
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Pre-First Succession War
Between 2784 and 2786 a period of minor reconnaissance raids was taking place between the great houses to determine the readiness of their adjacent rival Great Houses.
However, it would soon become apparent to all Great Houses that in order to become the new First Lord one of two strategies would be required diplomatically (that had not succeeded since 2780) or militarily, and in order for this to occur one House would have to conquer at a minimum of four of the five remaining Great Houses.
Taking the long game approach this would require the capture and assimilation of most, if not all of your initial opponents military industrial complex and civilian economy so that it could then be used for the Second Succession War when, what was expected to be either the last two or three Great Houses, that would fight for the dominance of the Inner Sphere and the Title of First Lord – otherwise a war of attrition would eventuate that would destroy everything and everyone (M.A.D.).
Thus each side took the view that in order to win the first succession war they must destroy their opponent’s military unit’s whist taking possession of an intact civilian and military industrial complex.
This would therefore limit the use of nuclear ordinance and orbital bombardment to military bunkers, such as Caste Brians, and when large units assemble within staging grounds where nothing of significance is within the vicinity - all other targets, including supply bunkers, would become capture only orders.
It was also hypothesized that such a war would require considerable time – thus all military training facilities (now a viable kill target) would need to become dispersed and placed underground for all training soldier, astech, ‘Mech pilot, aerospace, navy etc – thus ensuring a constant supply of highly trained soldiers. Whilst all military Naval facilities would have to be hidden for the foreseeable future.
Tactics therefore would revolve around the capturing the enemy military industrial complexes forces – denying them access to new machines / spare parts - then demolish / capture their standing army / navy throughout their realm – force them to capitulate / pacify the captured realm – integrate their citizens into your army then move onto the next Great House - tactics that in all likelihood could take more than one generation to implement.
Military computer theory suggested any other tactics would eventuate into a war of attrition and thus over time the destruction of the entire Inner Sphere – hence designated as M.A.D. – thus out-lawed by all sides command and control officers.
Each Great House also had two enemies, one on each border, thus they must allocate resources to both borders at the same time to ensure the final victory, or if they could obtain a non-aggression pact with one and attack the other.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/15/19 05:10 PM
66.74.60.165
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It would be easier, and less casualties on your side, to just destroy the facilities.
That would deny the enemy the resources, while your factories pump out parts they can't use.
The necessity to hide naval aspects only apply if the enemy has any to reach them. Nuking all worlds that they would need to attack you is far easier, then ground fighting would be. Far less expensive.
Only a few units were deemed acceptable for other realms to try an acquire. So the loss of them wouldn't really affect your troops.
The only thing that may stop the use of nukes, is in places that have resources you can use. Ore and such.
Nukes are easier, and cheaper to use then dropping battalions of mechs on world and losing them trying to take said worlds.
Sadly, this would encourage the full destruction of worlds, instead of the occupation that comes with just seizing them.
I do agree with the occupation process, but given the need for taking out the enemy quickly, nuke as well as other WMD would be the way to do it.
Taking a world by force can require years with just one. That would be needed in a few places, so your forces could move on to the next areas. Though the enemy might nuke it to prevent you from advancing.
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Requiem
02/15/19 05:48 PM
58.175.193.140
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There is a reason why nukes have not been used since WW2.
Just because using nukes is easier does not mean it will ensure the ultimate goal of being First Lord, and if it does then the First Lord rule over a universe of dead planets – what a win!
With this strategy – Mutually Assured Destruction via attrition “once again” – by the time one realms forces conquer another realm they will not have any industries left to go any further as they have just conquered a nuclear wasteland and what was done to this realm in all likely hood was done to the attacking world.
Thus we are back to two realms with stone- age technology throwing rocks at each other.
No a little détente is required on all sides to achieve the goal - otherwise the plan would be to nuke all worlds to ensure the final victory!
Congrats the First Lord can now rule over a pile of ash.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
02/15/19 05:55 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
However, it would soon become apparent to all Great Houses that in order to become the new First Lord one of two strategies would be required diplomatically (that had not succeeded since 2780) or militarily, and in order for this to occur one House would have to conquer at a minimum of four of the five remaining Great Houses.
Not every House Lord was actually, earnestly trying to be First Lord of the Star League. Consider the Steiner Archon at the dawn of the First Succession War. p. 45 House Steiner SB:
In reply [to Kurita], Archon Jennifer announced in her New Year's Eve message to the Commonwealth that she also claimed the title of First Lord. Her words were spoken more in irony than out of any intention to claim leadership of the rotting remains of the Star League.
That varied from House to House and era to era. Every House later had power-hungry Lords who truly imagined themselves sitting on the Star League's throne. Max Liao was particularly delusional in that regard.
But with respect to your scenario, not everyone was focused on defeating the Inner Sphere to be House Lord. They had a multitude of goals, not all shared by the other House Lords:
1) Snag the leaderless rich Terran Hegemony worlds. Even 250 years later, these were some of the most populous and industrialized worlds of the Inner Sphere. Kenyon Marik was as much interested in getting those Hegemony worlds as pressing any unenforceable claim as First Lord.
2) Defend themselves from neighbors. For example, the Steiners were very alarmed by the Kuritans and didn't care about the Capellans or Suns.
3) Some DID want to claim title of First Lord. Minoru Kurita and John Davion were very earnest about their claims thanks to intermarriage with the Camerons, but they took different approaches. Minoru aimed to destroy the Combine's opponents and beat everyone down. Prince John favored a more diplomatic, First Lord-ish approach. He moved particularly slowly in the Hegemony land grab...
"Because Prince John wished to behave like a proper successor to the Camerons, he had forbade his military to do anything 'unseemly'. For example, while the other House Lords were openly plundering the Terran state of wealth and worlds, the AFFS had to buy or secretly steal anything valuable..."
Anyway, the point is that the Inner Sphere spent years slowly staggering toward all-out war without imagining it was going to have an all-out war. After the war burst into the open c2787, not everyone was gunning seriously for the Star League throne. That means they're all going to have different goals than "trying to knock out 4 opponents."
Of course, you could make an alternate history scenario for just that but you'll need to change up some of the actors. Replace the hippy peacenik House Lords with more Minoru Kuritas.
Quote:
Taking the long game approach this would require the capture and assimilation of most, if not all of your initial opponents military industrial complex
Or get the Terran Hegemony, which exceeded the industrial base of any House. That's what the Houses were trying to do in the First Succession War.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
02/15/19 11:45 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE; “C.2787, not everyone was gunning seriously for the Star League Throne.”
However, the main reason we have the succession wars (as in the name itself) is obtaining the throne.
Thus circa post Amaris Civil War / prior to 1st Succession War - If you don’t want it surely, as a House Lord, you would also recognize that by not having a First Lord this would lead to an all-out war between all the Great Houses and as such it would also involve WMDs (nuclear / biological / chemical / orbital) thus destruction on a scale as yet only seen from the Amaris Civil War.
Thus if you don’t want the throne / a massive Inner Sphere wide Amaris Civil War - you should have formed a coalition with another great house to elect a First Lord – because if you get two great houses then it is more likely that Kerensky would have also backed this person giving three … then would not the people of the Inner Sphere back Kerenskys choice (via Blake’s media HPG Network). Thus ensuring an Amaris Civil War does not become Inner Sphere Wide.
I’m sorry but this does not make any sense to me in that as a House Lord you don’t want the Title but you also don’t want anyone else to have it (acting like a petulant child?) – thus condemning not only your own people but the entire Inner Sphere to the horrors of an Amaris Civil War with no end in sight as no one realm has a superior military to bring the other four to heal.
QUOTE: “Or get the Terran Hegemony, which exceeded the industrial base of any House. That's what the Houses were trying to do in the First Succession War”.
Why? It was also written that the Terran Hegemony had run out of their resources … that is why they were strip-mining the periphery.
Thus only working factories would hold any value …. By taking that factory back to your home world …. And this would take months. Thus would not your enemy just send in fighters with a low yield WMD and just take out the factory and your salvage team at the same time? Or send a warship and just strike at it from orbit …. Or both ….
But in my Alt History the SLDF has not gone on the exodus thus trying to take over the Hegemony has just been made moot …..
Thus for me I have come to the decision that way back in time (21st Century?) when rules of warfare between written there was a provisos that stipulated
1. All nuclear / biological / chemical etc. (all WMDs) weapons (no matter the size, yield, tipped with etc) or the range of the missile / attached to whatever vehicle they were attached to etc …. They have been banned.
2. Then later on when warship were created a proviso to the above law was included - All Warship weapons (this includes asteroids etc.) cannot be used for the purpose of orbital bombardment – thus any form of orbital bombardment has also been banned.
A sentiment / law all armies have adhered to …. And still to this day
They must be outlawed / banned for the positive development of the game.
For my new Alt. Universe this law will be included.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/19 02:39 AM
66.74.60.165
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The Aries Convention did ban nukes. And when the first war broke out, everyone abandoned it, as some were using them to even survive, while others used them to destroy the enemy, no matter where they were. And being banned does not mean they will never be used. Try to enforce it, while everyone is at war using them.
The idea of wiping out your enemies ability to wage war isn't that mind blowing to figure out. The use of nukes were used first, as you could nuke a world, jump into another system, and repeat. If you did it fast enough, you made sure the enemy couldn't hit you back.
Now with the 'laws' of the game, certain anti ship missiles were far better then nuke for destroying things, which would seem to be something else to use, but the nuke makes sure the enemy can't use that world without hazmat gear and such. It denies you use of it, but only a few worlds were needed by one house or the other. Depending on the lords view that is. If you need food, then you take those types of worlds. If you need factories, same thing.
But consider this. You don't destroy the factories, you can always rebuild later, you run the risk of the enemy taking them back as you move your forces forward.
This does destroy the actual gameplay, such as warships did when they were brought into the game.
But let's focus on the one statement. Have to destroy the enemy quickly. That is why invading worlds would not be the main focus. And you don't have to wipe everything out. Just force your enemy to surrender to you. Granted, it is possible they could surrender to the other nation on the far border, but then you make sure that one can't reach you.
The statement of I will rule all, even if I am the only one left comes to mind. But then you have your own realm to rule, and anyone else. Well, they tend to be more likely to cause trouble then it's worth.
It is the screwed up way of thinking, some of those in power get.
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Requiem
02/16/19 04:44 AM
58.175.193.140
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So scorched earth tactics, poison all the wells sow the earth with salt – symbolize a curse of re-habitation – but in this case with nuclear ordinance / orbital bombardment because it is the quickest and easiest method?
So we are looking at Dr. Strangelove: or how I stopped worrying and love the bomb and Dr. Who: Genesis of the Daleks.
Is this what the Battletech game world has become? The convenience of using WMDs
Is this not why the jihad era of the game was so despised?
This is why I have banned them … following the end of the Outer Reaches Rebellion in 2242 …. “In addition due to the widespread use of orbital bombardments as well as the use of nuclear ordinance a second Declaration, which became commonly known as the Weapons of Mass Destruction Declaration (WMDD for short) - was passed and accepted by all sides citing the inhumanity in its deployment and the manufacture of nuclear, chemical, biological weapons as well as the use of orbital bombardments became not only an illegal weapons of war but the use of such a weapons also became a high crime against humanity.”
The only other time they were used was by Amaris …. to the infamy of his name ....
Since then no one has used them in my game world …. The BattleMech is king of the Battlefield … not a Tac. Nuke and not an orbital bombardment. …. as, in my opinion, it was meant to be as from the first Box set 35 years ago!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
02/16/19 10:12 PM
66.74.60.165
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The main reason the nuking was brought up is the statement about speed in taking down your foe, so you can be first lord. There is no real way to do it quickly.
As stated in other threads, the lack of nukes would mean the IS should not be the stone age when it begins in 3025. But there is a whole bunch of rewrites that need to go with this.
The only real thing I could suggest with removing the orbital bombardment, would be the inability to target properly in the atmosphere, though that is a bit weak. They can target blips thousands of kilometers away, the those are moving erratically to avoid being hit.
This compounds the use of TAG and guided ordinance, as someone is bound to suggest the laser (TAG) guilded bombs and capital missiles.
But then having it stated before they begin play, there will be no way that works, then you should be fine.
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Cray
02/16/19 10:35 PM
71.47.193.139
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Quote:
Why? It was also written that the Terran Hegemony had run out of their resources … that is why they were strip-mining the periphery.
Heh, no. Some Hegemony planets were running low on easily mined resources, the sort that Terra had before the industrial age. It was nowhere near true depletion - check the USILR codes of published core planets in the 31st or 32nd Century. Most published worlds still have natural resource values of C or better.
The exploitation of the Periphery was artificially supported by subsidies and a need of the Star League to keep the Periphery in check. Core worlds needing billions of tons of iron or oil per year weren't going to get that from the Periphery with BattleTech's small spacecraft.
At the end of the Star League, Simon Cameron died while investigating the bountiful resources of an asteroid belt. In particular, he was killed by the very method that would make asteroid mining cost-effective: a robot. As noted in several works, the Terran system's asteroid belt (one of many belts in the Hegemony) held resources that could've met all the needs of the Inner Sphere for thousands of years. It just wasn't cost effective to mine or ship those resources over interstellar distances without some breakthrough like the aforementioned robotics.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
02/17/19 05:32 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, don’t you find that without access to all the books, and all the tables, you find yourself missing out on critical information to understand the minute nuances of the BattleTech universe.
That is for the amount of resources upon individual worlds ….. where is this info held?
For if you don’t have the tables you rely on what is written and sometimes this can be a little confusing …. As the written word is open to interpretation.
Second, If you take the idea of being as fast as possible to achieve Inner Sphere dominion through the use of nuclear ordinance through to its logical conclusion … you come up with a warship that has multiple holds containing cobalt tipped nuclear weapons that can be used to rain down upon any planet …. Thus turning the planet into an uninhabitable wasteland …. A death planet as it were
Thus with a fleet of these warships you can jump from one system to the next, destroying every enemy inhabitable world the people on it etc. within the minimum amount of time.
Therefore a large area of multiple worlds can be eliminated very quickly.
The problem is what if everyone has the same idea and each Great House Has a fleet of 100 plus of these world killers.
Within the first one or two years of war the majority of all worlds would now be dead worlds.
The only logical solution is the elimination of all WMDs as well as the use of Orbital Bombardments.
Yes, you can acquire and use them in war, but there are consequences …. HPG Interdiction for your entire realm, if a House Lord uses them, to get them put back on – the House Lord must surrender him/her-self to Terra for life imprisonment ( or if Kurita – ritual suicide)
The same should go for any act of High Crimes against Humanity.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/17/19 04:00 PM
58.175.193.140
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An example of High Crimes against Humanity and the consequences ..... within the First Succession War ....
Kentares IV
In the midst of an advance toward New Avalon, capital of the Federated Suns, Coordinator Minoru Kurita was assassinated by a sniper's laser rifle on Kentares IV. Minoru's son, Jinjiro Kurita learned about the assassination and told his military officers to, "kill them all". When one of them asked for a clarification of the order, the man was shot by Jinjiro's personal bodyguards. The Draconis military forces began to systematically execute the entire population of Kentares IV.
Only a month into the operation, however, Jinjirio’s actions became known to the people of the Inner Sphere when ComStar representatives on Kentares leaked information about the atrocity to the rest of the Inner Sphere. The entire Inner Sphere was appalled by the brutality of the action, with recordings of the executions that Jinjiro was personally watching portrayed the DCMS adhering to Jinjiro orders in which he forbade the use of modern weapons, instead preferring a sword to behead the captives. By the end of the first month the Kentares population was massacred to an amount estimates at almost 5.2 million men, women, and children (nearly 10% of the population).
Shortly thereafter Jinjiro was pronounced guilty of High Crimes against Humanity in absentia by the War Crimes Tribunal upon Terra. As a result of the War Crimes Tribunal Verdict and Sentencing ComStar initiated an Interdiction upon the whole of the Draconis Combine which resulted in multiple severe military setbacks upon all their military.
As a result the United Republic of Marseille’s Star League Defence Force took advantage of the situation and launched a daring raid against the Draconis Combines’ Military Command and Control upon Luthien.
Escorted by four Potemkin-class cruisers the elite 151st Royal BattleMech Division mounted a daring deep-penetration raid against the Combine capital. The raid involved making a series of challenging jumps before emerging at a jump point in the Luthien system, at which point the 151st dropped onto the surface of the planet to attack and destroy the Command and Control Unit and Facilities located within the Imperial Castle.
As the 151st hit their target the cruises destroyed Luthien's naval picket. The SLDF had anticipated that Luthien would be heavily defended, and as a result a full complement of assault DropShips and fighter carriers were utilized, but the actual defending forces were minimal at best and they could not halt the vengeful SLDF units. By the end of the operation the buildings, and many of their High Ranking Officers within the Draconis Combines Command and Control Facilities were killed / destroyed. The 151st were then able to retreat off world in good order.
The shock and horror of the atrocities was none so more felt than by residents of the Federated Suns. This atrocity spurred the Davion forces to launch spontaneous and surprisingly successful assaults against Combine forces. By 2798, the Combine forces had been driven from the area around New Avalon. Many of the early gains by the Combine were lost in this emotion-fueled counter-offensive.
In the Combine itself, however, many were equally appalled, if less able to express it. When the Eridani Light Horse mercenary unit learned of it they immediately decided to leave the Combine's employ. The governor of Sendai learned of the unit's plans and took, as hostages, the dependents of the Light Horse to force the unit's surrender. When the Light Horse failed to do so, the governor had the hostages executed. Two battalions of the Eridani Light Horse landed on Sendai and exacted vengeance upon the military forces and political officials. Once they completed their mission, the mercenary unit traveled into the United Republic of Marseille.
In order to safeguard the Draconis Combine from the the Charge of High Crimes against Humanity, and in particular ComStar’s Interdiction, Coordinator Jinjiro Kurita, rather than surrendering to the authorities upon Terra to start a life sentence, committed ritual suicide as a result of the atrocities committed by his orders.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
02/17/19 09:48 PM
58.175.193.140
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and then you could take this idea one more step ...
• 2825: CEO of ComStar Conrad Toyama proposes Operation Divine Intervention to ensure the stability of the Inner Sphere – ComStar is to work in conjunction with Terran War Crimes Court from this point forward. Each HPG station will be issued with an arbitrator of the Court and will be provided with the right to request assistance from the Lone Star Regiment when required.
• 2826: The Lone Star Regiment is formed on Terra from former Star League Defence Force and Republic of Delphi military personnel – They have been commissioned by the Terran War Crimes Court to hunt down and bring to Justice any Mercenary Units / Individuals that have been subpoenaed on the charge of War Crimes.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/24/19 06:08 PM
1.158.206.105
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We have a Solid strategy in place …. Observation and forward strike base systems …. Leaving your rear lines undefended would bring disaster
The opening move is the most important move as it will dictate whether you will have a blitzkrieg or trench warfare battle of attrition upon your hands.
Once Amaris committed his forces to the coup it is inevitable a war between the great houses will occur as a follow up to determine the next First Lord. Projections would indicate that both Amaris and the SLDF would not be in a position to continue hostilities following their war.
Thus production levels of existing military equipment will be increased to maximum capacity.
In addition conscription will now be implemented upon all worlds.
Prior to the Amaris / Kerensky debacle we established multiple hidden world bases within our respective enemies space – these are to be re-occupied with immediate effect – they are to act as our deep penetration units (‘ghost’ units) who will act as our springboard to destroy the enemies logistical network. Their primary targets will be designated as fixed logistical emplacements – ammunition and space parts warehouses and manufacturing facilities / food distribution / military and civilian transportation.
Fleet warships and death ships are to also complement the forces surrounding these hidden bases.
On day one of the declaration of war all death ships are to attack all of the enemies’ capitol worlds – regional and otherwise – being command and control worlds for their military forces these worlds are to be rendered uninhabitable through the use of WMDs.
Forward Bug-eye jump-ships are too be deployed to determine enemy supply routes and any redeployment / concentration of forces (especially regarding the redeployment of their fleets manufacturing facilities to hidden locations) – this information will be utilised to determine primary military unit targets.
Internal planetary surveyor craft are to begin sweeps of hidden systems that have been deemed as possible locations where enemy forces may have established their own hidden forward bases within our space – they are to be assigned warships – In the event a hidden base is discovered either orbital bombardment or WMD strike is authorised to render the base uninhabitable with immediate effect.
Forward military units are to take up positions with rapid deployment measures in place upon their possible first strike targets as per code word clearance initiative (HPG message with only a few words – these worlds will correspond to their code books as to the world / mission target) – All commanders are to be impressed upon the necessity of speed and the ability to overcome all obstacles as they appear is necessary to achieve final victory as quickly as possible. All units are to receive short / medium Range WMD units – Authorisation for use will be transferred to unit commanders once war has been declared.
Reserve units are to be called upon to become combat ready at a moment’s notice. Reserve units are to impress upon the civilian population the importance of establishing and maintaining their own shelter system in the event the enemy deploys a WMD.
All existing military industrial complexes, hospitals and local world government facilities (those necessary to continue the war and to preserve our history and culture in the event of a WMD attack) are to be transferred to their respective shelter complexes with immediate effect.
All knowledge – military, technological and civilian – is to be digitized and stored within multiple central repositories scatted throughout the realm as well as those designated hidden worlds. Thus ensuring the knowledge and expertise of the realm can never be totally lost in the event the enemy initiates a M.A.D. military campaign scenario, such as the use of death warship fleets to exterminate whole areas of inhabited worlds to achieve their idea of a final victory.
All fleet manufacturing facilities are to disembark from their current locations and proceed to their alternate hidden world locations – defensive fleets and military orbital platforms / squadrons are to take up their defensive positions with immediate effect.
All major civilian fleets are to be provided with a military warship escort with immediate effect.
Logistics chains are to include the hidden world depository initiative to ensure a continuance of supplies in the even the enemy targets our main warehouse supply networks with WMDs.
All executive governments personnel who have been deemed with Alpha One through Three clearance Levels are to leave, with immediate effect, from their regional worlds to take up their position upon their pre-determined command and control warship(s) and are to rendezvous with their respective escort fleets within hidden systems – thus ensuring the continuance of government in the event key worlds are targeted for immediate total destruction upon the eve of War.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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