Nightmare
11/16/01 03:31 PM
194.251.240.107
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So, did BobRichter and Karagin ever get around to fighting
it out? And who won?
Advice for Evil Overlords:
I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
11/17/01 09:01 AM
134.121.149.97
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Not yet. We're still haggling over minor details.
Like who's a coward and a cheat.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
11/17/01 07:09 PM
194.251.240.107
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Well, we have noticed a few points in the favor of vehicles over here. The lack of a Critical Hit chart seems to be the most
important one, wouldn`t you say? Put an XL Engine in a mech
and you have twice the number of engine slots to take hits.
Put that XL in a vehicle, you have a vehicle with an XL who
loses some space but gains more free weight.
Put 1 tons ammo in a mech and 1 ton in a vehicle. The chance
for an ammo hit is perhaps a bit larger in the vehicle, but look
what happens when you load 10 tons ammo in both. Now it
is certainly more likely the mech takes an ammo hit.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Karagin
11/19/01 01:29 PM
63.173.170.98
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Right Bob, and you are the one who keeps wanting things your way, like having to REDO your vehicle, yet I have not TOUCHED my mechs to redo them.
Like not wanting to use all the level two things, because you are afraid to lose...yep I would say it's you are not ready for this and that you are doing a fine job of getting out of it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/19/01 01:30 PM
63.173.170.98
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Lack of What?
Tell me you didn't just say vehicle's don't have a critial hit table? Cause if you did, I suggest you read the rules again and this time actually read them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
11/20/01 12:38 AM
194.251.240.107
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Badly chosen words, more like it. The vehicle has a FIXED critical hit list, not a diagram like a mech. So it makes no difference for the vehicle if it has an XL or normal engine.
Having one ton of ammo is no different from having ten.
A mech has to allocate critical slots to those things, and therefore runs a greater risk of getting a hit on them.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
I will instruct my Legions of Terror to attack the hero en masse, instead of standing around waiting while members break off and attack one or two at a time.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Acolyte
11/20/01 01:27 AM
142.179.22.99
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Something I'm toying with. Each location has 2 crit tables, just like the arms and torso's on a 'Mech. The first 6 hits are the same as the vehicle crit chart, the remaining 6 can be filled out with equipment. Large weapons can be split between locations (a la AC 20).
Acolyte
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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Godsmack
11/22/01 09:51 PM
130.85.16.42
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In any mechs vs vehicles duel, it all depends on what is being used to determine even forces?
If its tonnage or number of units, mechs will win. A 25 ton mech will defeat a 25 ton vehicle. Same goes for 100 tons and 75 and so on and so on. And 5 mechs will always win against 5 vehicles or 10 mechs against 10 vehicles.
If its cost, vehicles will win. I have a 9/14 hovercraft with 4 srm2's that costs only 400,000 C-Bills and a 5/8 track with a PPC that costs 800,000 C-Bills. C-Bill for C-Bill, these vehicles will take any monetarily equivalent group of mechs easily. I can purchase 3-6 vehicles for each opposing light mech, 8-11 for each opposing medium, 14-18 for each opposing heavy and 20-25 for each opposing assault. And this is assuming he is using standard engines in those mechs. Otherwise, Id be sporting a force of vehicles measured in hundreds..
Now that I've told you this, we can all drop the issue
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
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Karagin
11/22/01 10:49 PM
63.23.175.119
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Thank you for pointing out the oh so clear and obvious...since that is not the issue, cost or BV, may I suggest you go and read the WHOLE thread below about Vehciles and their problems according to Bob and why this battle is going on, if it ever happens, and stop jumping in without knowing all the facts...
And one thing your super cheap vehicles die a lot faster then any mech will...and the rules favor the mechs bottom line.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Godsmack
11/24/01 11:19 PM
130.85.16.42
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My super cheap vehicles dont die any faster than an expensive one. The only difference is you can purchase a whole lot of mine for the cost of one of those.
Type: Phallus
Vehicle Type: Hover
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Mass: 25 Tons
Armour: 7 Tons Standard
Power Plant: 95 ICE
Cruising Speed: 97.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 151.2 kph
Turret: Yes
Armament:
SRM 2 - Turret
SRM 2 - Turret
SRM 2 - Turret
SRM 2 - Turret
1 ammo SRM (50) - Body
Armor Value: 112
Front: 22
Left/Right: 22
Back: 22
Turret: 24
Cost: 404,000 C-Bills
BV: 970
Type: Astehawk
Vehicle Type: Tracked
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Mass: 25 Tons
Armour: 7 Tons Standard
Power Plant: 125 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54.0 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Turret: Yes
Armament:
PPC - Turret
Armor Value: 112
Front: 22
Left/Right: 22
Back: 22
Turret: 24
Cost: 798,000 C-Bills
BV: 962
Now tell me why these vehicles would die any faster than a standard vehicle. Also, the 9/14 hovercraft would be quite difficult to hit moving at flank speed. Add to that the fact that they only cost 400 grand a piece and Id say any mech would have its hands full with its monetary equivalent in them.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
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Karagin
11/24/01 11:50 PM
63.173.170.58
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Simple, look at the hit table for vehicles, note all the nice things that happen when 3s, 4s, and 5s are rolled and notice all the nice things that happen if a 2 is rolled and you get the crit...oh wait, all the damage hits one loction on the vehicle instead of being spread out over the whole thing, wow...and then wait...the rules stated if a loction on a vehicle is lost, oh damn the vehicle is dead...
So while you can build all the nice and cool toys you want, the rules kill them much faster then mechs...
So how about you actually read the rules and look over the damage to hit table for vehicles and pay attention to the small details and then open your mouth.
Better yet why don't you get on Bob's behind and get him to play this out with all the variables that would be applied in a real fight, or are you like him and worried that if all the neat little things out there are used your shinny vehicle will be a hood orinment?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Godsmack
11/25/01 01:58 AM
130.85.20.10
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Personally, If I had to take on mechs with vehicles, I would go solely with my Phallus hovercraft I posted earlier. With 40-80 SRM2's attacking EACH of your mechs a turn, what makes you think your mechs will last long enough to destroy 10-20 vehicles each.
I would like to know what mech you think you can beat my hovercrafts with. Remember to divide the cost of that mech by 400,000 to see how many of my 9/14, 4 SRM2 equipped hover vehicles it will have to face. I hope its an assault mech, hehe.
Your best bet would be to use just one cheap light mech around 2-2.5 mill C-Bills. Thats only 5-6 of my vehicles it would have to face (20-24 SRM2's). Using anything other than a single light mech would bury your mechs in SRM fire even worse. 2 light mechs would have to face 10-12 (40-48 SRM2's) vehicles. I would easily take out one mech in one turn of fire. You, if you're lucky, may take out 4 of my vehicles, leaving 6-8 (24-32 SRM2's) for the second mech. The larger your mech force, the better the numbers get for me.
Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
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Bob_Richter
11/25/01 09:23 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>A 25 ton mech will defeat a 25 ton vehicle.<<<
Don't be too sure about that. Vehicles have a lot of advantages, if they're designed properly. (amazing speed for minimal cost in tonnage being among those)
>>>And 5 mechs will always win against 5 vehicles or 10 mechs against 10 vehicles.<<<
Particularly since the 'Mechs can just max out their tonnage, forcing the player with vehicles to either sacrifice tonnage or go with the far less effective tracked vehicles.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/25/01 09:32 AM
4.35.174.250
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By cost, it would be difficult (not impossible) for a group of 'Mechs to defeat your badly named hovercraft.
There are cheap 'Mechs, too, you know. A number come in right around 1 million C-Bills. 3050 LB-X Armed UrbanMechs, or a WSP-1As with infernos, if they are allowed, would do a pretty bang-up job against these things. With sufficient preparation, the minefield that any competantly designed LRM boats could lay out with thunder FASCAM mines would bring these things down in a jiffy.
Karagin, buddy, you need to quit bellyaching. I'm just using the level 2 rules to my advantage (I don't have to allow optional rules!), this helps prove my point. Besides, as I mentioned, there are numerous ways I could have set this fight up to MY advantage using optional rules too. Do I have to bring up submarines or hidden SRM Carriers again? (Naturally, you would not have allowed any of these scenarios, why should I be any different?)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/25/01 12:16 PM
63.173.170.130
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Your use of the rules proves nothing other then that you want to find a loop hole to win with...give it up your theories are so full of holes it's not funny.
Based on things I have seen of your hovertank, Bob, and given how the rules of combat work with vehicles I say we have 5 turn game to look forward to...and those mobility hits are going to be your death...but wait you know all that so I hope your ego can handle the defeat...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/26/01 05:15 AM
134.121.149.97
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I feel obligated to point out that neither of the standard locusts (the LCT-1V or the LCT-3M) are equipped with any kind of SRM system. Variants so equipped DO however exist.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
11/26/01 05:24 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Your use of the rules proves nothing other then that you want to find a loop hole to win with...<<<
I am not cheating. I am not being cheap. I am simply making every effort to allow you to prove your point.
UNDER LEVEL 2 RULES, Infernos and mines are optional. I HAVE TO AGREE TO LET YOU USE THEM. I do not agree. That's that.
Now quit whining.
>>>
Based on things I have seen of your hovertank, Bob, and given how the rules of combat work with vehicles I say we have 5 turn game to look forward
to...and those mobility hits are going to be your death...but wait you know all that so I hope your ego can handle the defeat...<<<
We shall see.
Actually, I'm wondering how your tremendous ego will be doing when we roll initiative for turn 15.
Mobility hits? No, my friend, you'd have to HIT first. You will see how difficult that can be.
My "ego" is entirely pretense (on my part) and misunderstanding (on your part.) Believe it or not (you will not) I am one of the most humble people you will ever know. I can accept loss. I am used to it, and I have already agreed to concede the point, IF you win.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/26/01 05:24 PM
63.173.170.211
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Man talk about you pricing the calf before it's born...right I forgot you are the expert of this game, I am sure you will find away to win no matter what happens.
YOU are the one that has to prove your theory about vehicles is correct, Bob, so why don't you shut up and find someone to do the maps so we can get this over with or do you plan on winning by sheer boredom?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 04:45 AM
134.121.149.97
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no, you have to prove me wrong so I will shut up, remember?
You can't ever prove a theory right, only wrong.
>>>and find someone to do the maps so we can get this
over with <<<
I'm sorry. I thought you were doing that?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 06:28 AM
63.173.170.51
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You are so full of your self, IT's your theory you have to prove it is right, all I have to is show you that mechs beat vehicles 9 times out 10 and with the rules as they are the only way the vehicles get the one when is with head shots...
So Bob it's time to put up or shut up...
I asked the two folks who I thought could do the maps they declined, so back to you on that one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 07:41 AM
134.121.149.97
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I believe we agreed that YOU would do it.
But then again, you really don't plan on doing anything at all except making pitiful attempts at insulting me, do you?
No. I didn't think so.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 07:45 AM
63.173.170.127
|
First off, I am not that familar with the program and seeing how I would like to get this done with BEFORE next year, it would be best if someone else made the maps, wait I do recall stating this before...I see you have forgotten.
And as far as insulting you well if the shoe fits wear it Bob, cause all you are doing is blowing hot air for all to see.
So WHO do you have in mind as a netural third party to make the maps, a mix of rolling hills, heavy woods and the setup of the original battletech map?
I am sure you can find some who can do this so we can get this over and done with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 08:04 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>First off, I am not that familar with the program and seeing how I would like to get this done with BEFORE next year, it would be best if someone else made the maps, wait I do recall stating this
before...<<<
And I repeat: I can and will gladly explain the process to you. It is not difficult. It is a task a child of six could understand and perform quickly with minimal training. I, myself, took no more than an hour learning it, and (as I always say) I suck.
>>>And as far as insulting you well if the shoe fits wear it Bob,<<<
It does not. There is only one egomaniac in the conversation. Hint: It's not me (note comment above: I suck! Does that sound like something an egomaniac would say Karagin? No, it's true though, I *DO* suck. I am about the world's laziest person, it's worst tactician, and I'm pretty bad at everything else too. I am alive now only because the United States Federal Government and my parents somehow think it's a good idea. Are you getting the picture? I'm a DEPRESSIVE, you MORON!)
>>>cause all you are doing is blowing hot air for all to see. <<<
Sure, Karagin. Vehicles, properly designed and employed, are MORE than a match for Battlemechs, as you will see as soon as you get OFF YOUR LAZY DUFF AND BUILD US SOME MAPS!
Or I could save some time and do it myself....but, of course, you won't let me, and noone else is willing to do it, so I'm required to wait around here and TAKE YOUR CRAP while I wait for you to do something you WILL NEVER DO just because you enjoy showering me with UNFOUNDED ABUSE and you can't stand the POSSIBILITY OF LOSING!
Look, I'll make the maps myself. It's not that hard. Trust me, you won't find anything wrong with them. If you do, I'll just do something else. Fair?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
11/27/01 08:09 AM
63.173.170.127
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More hot air from you on how great you are building vehicles using your wacky ideas...yeah we have all heard it before.
Now to explain things to you ONCE more, having a third party do up the maps keeps you and me from calling each other cheaters or worse, now does that make sense to you or not?
The only moron around here is you Bob, since you seem set on your theories no matter WHAT the rules say and no matter how many folks point them out to you.
Now if you can't understand this then I am sorry but trying READING what is in front of you for once.
Let me sum things up, you want your custom hovertanks to take on my custom mechs, noting that you can't prove your theory with BOOK vehicles, you won't allow mines and I am sure you are pissed I am using LB-X cluster rounds, and all I am asking is some one other then you or me make the maps up based on the terrain listed in the above reply to one of your rants...NOW what is so hard about that Bob?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 08:36 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>
Now to explain things to you ONCE more, having a third party do up the maps keeps you and me from calling each other cheaters or worse,<<<
Actually, I explained that to you.
But, of course, if you would pay attention for a moment:
(which, of course, you won't)
It would be equally workable for one of us to design a map and the other to approve it or to simply COPY the base BT maps you proposed, no? (though, actually, the inclusion of Heavy Woods severely tilts the balance toward 'Mechs....but nevermind that.)
>>>The only moron around here is you Bob,<<<
I'm going to cry.
You cruel, cruel man!
>>>>since you seem set on your theories no matter WHAT the rules say and no matter how many folks point them out to you. <<<
The rules say I am wrong? Wow. I never saw that in BMR. What page is that?
>>>Let me sum things up, you want your custom hovertanks to take on my custom mechs,<<<
Actually, you want it. I'm fine if you concede the fight. Really, I am.
>>>noting that you can't prove your theory with BOOK vehicles,<<<
Which is a painfully stupid observation on your part, since no part of my thesis deals with book 'Mechs or vehicles.
>>>, you won't allow mines <<<
Or infernos. But I can't see why you are bothered by this. You wanted to play by the rules, we are.
>>>I am sure you are pissed I am using LB-X cluster rounds<<<
Nope.
>>>and all I am asking is some one other then you or me make the maps up based on the terrain listed in the above reply to one of your rants...<<<
I suggest you accept my alternative solution so we can, as you put it, get this over with.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
11/27/01 08:41 AM
63.173.170.127
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Man you are well on to proving that you have to have your way.
I said and if you would read it and understand it, that your theory is a bunch crap considering you need custom vehicles to prove it, yet you never said that in your original posting how convient you forgot that part.
And yes Bob the rules make hash of your theories, but you won't see that so I guess it is going to take the fight to show you that.
Please pick someone (other then you, your brother or myself, so as to keep it fair.) to do the maps up and let's get this done with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 08:49 AM
134.121.149.97
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You aren't listening.
You never do.
Oh well.
And I was actually looking forward to this fight.
Maybe I can have my girlfriend build the maps...
no, you'd think that was too biased too....well, maybe one of my other OpenRPG-using buddies...
not too many of those.
Oh well.
I'll find someone.
Any volunteers?
Really, I can show you how.
It's not that hard.
Someone? Anyone?
Meanwhile, I think I'll go off somewhere and cry...maybe attempt suicide a time or two, the night's still young.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
11/27/01 08:52 AM
63.173.170.127
|
Wow...and this all so heart wrenching...like a bad case of heart burn...
At this point Bob, I don't care who makes the maps as long as it's not your or brother, won't want to have to deal with all the what ifs and such, and I am sure you want a fair playing field given that you have tried really hard to stack things in your favor.
And Bob get some help for your fragile life, they have some really good meds for condition.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 09:23 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>At this point Bob, I don't care who makes the maps as long as it's not your or brother,<<<
Good. Bloody make it yourself, like we agreed two weeks ago, then.
cripes.
>>>and I am sure you want a fair playing field given that you have tried really hard to stack things in your favor. <<<
As have you. This is actually part of the proof, silly man.
(yours, of course. This whole thing is set up so that YOU can prove ME wrong. To actually PROVE MYSELF RIGHT, I would have to take on an infinite number of challengers in an infinite number of battles, but I will shut up if you beat me just this once, which is why I've gone out of my way to remove any factors that might allow me to claim I was cheated of proper victory.)
>>>And Bob get some help for your fragile life,<<<
I was only kidding about the suicide bit. My life's in competant hands (which is to say: not mine.)
>>>they have some really good meds for condition. <<<
Oh yeah. Throw away money. Get all doped up. One day forget to take your meds and kill all your classmates thinking that you are dreaming. Good plan!
I have less respect for the psychological profession than I do for your 'Mech designs.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
11/27/01 09:30 AM
63.173.170.2
|
Actually I never agreed to making them my self I said it was an option but alas one I don't have time to use. So I am asking you to find some one to make them for us.
As for the rest Bob, we will see won't we...please this is getting old and tiresome, you want to be proven right and all that, so please find someone to do the maps, and we will get on with this, then once it's all done you can see if your ideas are correct or not...so please spare me and the rest of us your endless repeating of things we can all go and read over and over again on threads below...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
11/27/01 09:35 AM
134.121.149.97
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>>>Actually I never agreed to making them my self I said it was an option but alas one I don't have time to use. So I am asking you to find some one to make them for us. <<<
Sure. Okay. Whatever, master.
>>>then once it's all done you can see if your ideas are correct or not...<<<
I know my ideas are correct. Called "strength of conviction"
I don't need to prove myself, you want me to shut up.
Are we clear on where we stand?
>>>so please spare me and the rest of us your endless
repeating of things we can all go and read over and over again on threads below... <<<
Ah, well....that's not exactly possible. If you keep ASSERTING the same things, I have to keep rebuffing them, don't I? Don't bring old stuff up, and I'll spend less time repeating myself. My fingers will thank you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
11/27/01 09:43 AM
63.173.170.2
|
Right well, I can see that you are going back to the old idea of you being attacked because folks disagree with your ideas...
Like I said, the battle will tell the finial word on the subject, so let's have it be the descession maker here.
And you are the one repeating your self over and over, I am simply pointing out what is in the BMR-R for vehicles and how they work and take damage, something you won't listen too or heed...but since you don't want it brought up then I guess I won't.
So as soon as you get someone to do the maps, let me know I will download them, and we can have the battle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
11/27/01 11:44 AM
24.44.236.103
|
I'd be glad to, if you'll point me to the program.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
11/27/01 12:12 PM
134.121.149.97
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www.OpenRPG.com.
You'll need to download the OpenRPG program itself as well as Python and wxPython.
OpenRPG comes with a handy tutorial which should help you understand it...
some minis (which will be useful in constructing a map) can be found at:
http://www.novagate.net/~warhammer/
Give me an e-maul when you're done.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
11/27/01 12:12 PM
134.121.149.97
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Oh yeah. Thanks bunches. I owe you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
NathanKell
12/02/01 12:36 AM
24.44.238.206
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*coughs*
Sorry to spam, but I sent the email on Tuesday (27th) and I was wondering whether it got through...
Address was per your profile.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/02/01 12:48 AM
134.121.144.40
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It doesn't seem to have. Odd. Maybe I should look at my profile again.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/02/01 12:50 AM
134.121.144.40
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Nope. It's right.
Maybe my server screwed up or something.
*shrug*
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/02/01 08:37 PM
134.121.144.40
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Nathan's doing the map.
It's not done, but I understand it's getting there.
I don't know. Do you need help, Nathan?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
12/02/01 10:43 PM
24.44.238.206
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I certainly wouldn't mind help ;). Indeed, being a complete neophyte at OpenRPG, I'd welcome it.
Hmm...I guess e-mail probably remains the best option, so as both not to clutter the board and keep the process impartial. My E-mail is per my profile.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/06/01 02:26 AM
24.44.238.206
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Sorry this took a while--I finally decided to make the map first, then put it into OpenRPG--so, anyway, I've got a map mocked up. I still need to transfer it into OpenRPG, though I'm not sure which method to use. 'Course, you may want me to go back to the drawing board anyway.
Here's the directory.
And a couple pictures:
Isometric rear-front, no grid
Isometric front-rear, no grid
Isometric with grid.
Rear-front straight perspective with grid
Regular top-down view
Ligtht blue is depth 0 water, medium blue is depth 1 water, and dark blue is depth 2 water. The darker, denser forest pieces are heavy forests. The map is 40x40.
This the sort of terrain you were looking for?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
12/06/01 02:29 AM
63.173.170.72
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Close, if you happen to have the maps sets that have the rolling hills and heavy woods map that is more what I had in mind, with a mixing in of original Battletech map as the open ground part, with some of the woods scattered around to even things out...
Nice pics though...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/06/01 05:28 AM
134.121.144.40
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What did you use to generate these? They kick butt.
Um. We need to meet on OpenRPG sometime so I can explain map creation.
For what it's worth, I think this map is fine...
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
12/06/01 01:56 PM
24.44.238.206
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Thanks.
Software: 3D Studio MAX (CGI is my hobby / maybe-soon-job)
I went with something I know--I had to scratch build it, but I got the result I wanted. Plus you can actually *see* the darn thing from more than one angle.
My problem with OpenRPG is that, whenever I zoom in or out, the number of hexes change. Plus I don't really like the idea of representing elevation by miniatures.
Meeting there would be very helpful.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/06/01 01:58 PM
24.44.238.206
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How about...
A small hill in the upper right, some tree-lining for the highway, and some scattered clumps of trees in the open spaces.
This okay with both of you?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/06/01 02:06 PM
24.44.238.206
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Closeups, because I like the trees and bridge ;)
Amazingly, the whole durn thing is only 15k faces, mostly because the trees are cheats. Difference between these dual-plane fakes:
and these 500k faces per piece monstrosities:
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
12/06/01 02:59 PM
63.173.170.39
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Sounds fine, could you toss in some more hills?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/06/01 03:21 PM
134.121.144.40
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I believe that was what MechWar 3d was supposed to be about...
I do wonder how that project is doing.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/06/01 03:22 PM
134.121.144.40
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A small island in that lake would be a nice touch. :)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Korbel
12/06/01 03:26 PM
206.152.237.32
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Whatever happened to that... I haven't heard anything new from them in a long time (mechwar 3D)
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NathanKell
12/06/01 03:45 PM
24.44.238.206
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Y'know, that was the original plan, then I thought "too cheesy." :D
Coming up.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
12/06/01 03:45 PM
63.173.170.131
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Sure whatever
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/06/01 03:48 PM
24.44.238.206
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OK, coming up
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
12/06/01 06:33 PM
63.173.170.121
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Thanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/07/01 01:21 AM
24.44.238.206
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Island:
No hexes:
Hexes:
Oh, and the new rubble piece:
Anything else to put on?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Karagin
12/07/01 02:12 AM
63.173.170.216
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Very impressive...I like it...though a few more trees scattered about would be nice, but overall this is very good...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/07/01 02:21 AM
134.121.16.64
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It's got plenty of trees, if you ask me.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/07/01 02:26 AM
63.173.170.216
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And seeing how I didn't why not keep that to your self...
I don't think it does...given that the maps picked had a lot of trees on them and so should these...after all it's not like we are using BOOK mechs/vehicles here at tourenment level game and you wanted customs...so I got dibs on the terrain.
IF you want to B---- about it now, then do it some where else cause I am sure none of us want to hear.
It needs more trees and then it should be done, and all they need to be is scattered around in lumps of two and three...after all I wouldn't want you B------ about the lack of LOS on the map.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/07/01 02:37 AM
134.121.16.64
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>>>so I got dibs on the terrain. <<<
I strenuously object, as always.
The terrain should be BALANCED (or, honestly, so you can more effectively prove your point, drawn up to my advantage), not canted to your advantage. The more trees there are on the map, the more you restrict combat range and movement speed, both to your advantage.
>>>after all it's not like we are using BOOK mechs/vehicles here<<<
Which has nothinng to do with anything. I've explained to you numerous times why this was necessary.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/07/01 02:41 AM
63.173.170.216
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It is balance, it reflect any battlefield on terran like planet, if you don't like then run the battle with someone else.
This is the map we are using with some extra trees toss around it and that is finial.
If you don't like don't play and then all you have to do is post here on the boards admiting your theories about vehicles in this game, Battletech, are wrong.
So what is going to be Bob? Play with this map with some extra trees here and there or not?
I think I have been very fair to you, I let you rebuild your vehicle given that you made a mistake on it, and the at the same time I didn't touch my mechs to make any changes. Then I gave in on your crying about my choice LRM ammo, again you had to have YOUR way and now you are complaing about the map...when does your whinning and such stop?
So what is it going to be Bob? The balll is in your court...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/07/01 07:39 PM
24.44.238.206
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OK, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was my impression:
The [Bob's] thesis is this: that a force of vehicles, properly designed and employed (neither of which FASA may be said to do) are more effective than an equal force of mechs.
Further, equality seems to be determined by tonnage.
Because of the nature of argument, the "burden of proof," if you will, falls to those who disagree.
Because Karagin does not agree, he has challenged Bob to a duel, his [Karagin's] aim being to disprove the [above] theory.
Since this is supposed to be a "fair fight" a third party, namely me, has been asked to create a map agreeable to both parties.
Because of the nature of the arguement, the more slanted external conditions (i.e. terrain, ruleset, etc.) are against a party which triumphs, the greater.
For Karagin this would presumably be winning an even-cost (c-bills) fight on a map entirely composed of Depth 1 Water.
For Bob this would presumably be an even-numbers fight on a map composed entirely of heavy woods.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/07/01 08:52 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>It is balance, it reflect any battlefield on terran like planet,<<<
Sure, if the whole planet is like the Seattle Area. You've never been to my hometown, have you?
Try finding a Heavy Woods within 50 miles of there...Or anywhere in Arizona, for that matter.
>>>So what is going to be Bob?<<<
Considering that you're just going to be an ass about it?
We don't play. You have forfeited your challenge and my assertion stands.
Who's next?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/08/01 08:08 AM
63.173.170.8
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I never said I forfitted Bob so stop with your crap.
And by the way so you can b---- some more the skills on both side, just to be fair and keep things under control are 4 gunnery 5 piloting/driving.
And the terrain is comman for the rest of the US, sorry you live in urban area, the rest of us happen to still have trees around outside of a park.
And so will please come back down to the ground with us mere mortals and let's get this ove with or is that asking to much???
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/08/01 02:03 PM
63.173.170.118
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The point is still there the terrain picked is roughly 60% of what you would find on a planet similar to this one.
It's not my fault Bob had to have custom vehicles to prove his point, if he had gone with FASA mechs and vehicles he could have picked the terrain...so his complaining is childish and pointless.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/08/01 03:18 PM
24.44.238.206
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First: your "[this is] roughly 60% of what you would find on [any terrestial] planet..." describes water, not rolling hills and forests. In fact, this sort of "normal" terrain is common only to places with a goodly amount of rainfall, a relatively high water table, and just the right amount of sun.
It is common, but not noticeably moreso than other common types (i.e., desert, plains, hilly, etc.). It's just that we, as humans, tend to like live in such environments so it seems more common.
Second: "It's not my fault Bob had to have custom vehicles." Neither is it his. It's FASA's--[nearly all] their designs stink, plain and simple. If you read above, it is clear that the idea of well-designed (and therefore custom) vehicles are integral to Bob's thesis.
One more time: his thesis is not that any vehicles will win against any mechs. That's not what he's arguing. His thesis is, was, and will continue to be that well-designed vehicles are better than well-designed mechs.
Bob is simply pointing out that, in order to test the thesis (which you are intent on doing, since you disagree with it) the terrain must be fair to both parties (and their forces' abilities).
So...you want terrain that's 60% of any terrestial planet.
How's a map of all depth-1 water sound?
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:17 PM
134.121.144.40
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'Scuse me. 60% of the terrain you'll find on an earth-type planet is OCEAN!
Much of the rest is barren desert and tundra. HEAVY woods is actually quite rare.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:19 PM
134.121.144.40
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Depth 1?
More like Depth 600 and we need rules for Battlemech crush depth.
:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/08/01 11:20 PM
134.121.144.40
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It's not the standard Locust.
It's a variant Locust.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
12/09/01 09:59 AM
63.23.174.223
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Heavy woods is rare??? Funny not in the part of he US I live and 60% of terrain on most continets is woods.
Or are you know geology major as well as know it all?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/09/01 10:04 AM
63.23.174.223
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Nathan his theory was about vehicles beating mechs because they are better based on what he feels is their strengths.
That is the bottom line.
The 60% is what is actually found on the land masses...if Bob can't fight in the terrain picked then it proves his theory doesn't hold water because if was the case then the terrain type would not matter now would it?
If his so called BETTER vehicles can beat mechs then why is so worried about the terrain?
It's time for him to put up or admit his theory is BS and post that on the boards so all can see and we move on to something else. He either does that or we have this battle and then deciced who is right and who is wrong. Till then he is blowing hot air and that is it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
12/10/01 04:59 PM
134.121.144.40
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HEAVY WOODS IS RARE.
Most woods are light woods, and woods are, themselves, rare.
Take a look at Earth's largest continent, Antarctica. How many trees do you see there?
Now, let's try North America. Yeah. Some good wooded terrain, but also MASSIVE SWATHS OF DESERT, PLAINS, AND TUNDRA.
That argument is nonsensical and simply WILL NOT HOLD WATER.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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damourc
12/10/01 08:53 PM
24.214.45.179
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Bob & Brother ('ah ain'ta gonna try to spell your handle!), speaking as a biologist with an extensive interest in military history and the effects of terrain thereon, you are incorrect. Bob, in your last message you say "HEAVY WOODS IS RARE. Most woods are light woods, and woods are, themselves, rare. Take a look at Earth's largest continent, Antarctica. How many trees do you see there? Now, let's try North America. Yeah. Some good wooded terrain, but also MASSIVE SWATHS OF DESERT, PLAINS, AND TUNDRA." Using the terrain definitions found in BMR on page 11 most of worlds forests would be heavy woods, not light. Antarctica is NOT the largest continent, Asia is. (Or Eurasia if you are one of the folks, like me, that thinks that Europe and Asia are one continent, not two. And, a silly aside, Antarctica was very heavily forested a few million years ago, so there!)
Moving on to North America, while a large percentage (I don't have figures at hand, I'll try to get them for a future posting) are desert/plain/tundra, there are significant portions of deserts & planis that would be "light woods" (Joshua Tree National Monument for example) in BT terms and some that would be "heavy woods" (Cochise National Forest). Also, virtually anywhere that you have a watercourse in the desert or plains you will find woods. Just south of the tundra you will find Tiaga ecosystem. One huge honking "heavy woods" that stretches across North America (and Eurasia I might add!). Finally, I do not believe that you comprehend just how radically humanity has altered the landscape. Prior to the arrival of europeans, virtually the entire US east of the Mississippi River was forested. I can well believe that more than 60% (a number thrown out by someone else in another post) of the surface of the land (given the fact that water covers approximately 72% of the "Earth's" surface I used the term "land") was forest. Given the fact that in the BT universe most planets are not as densly populated as the Earth is now, it is unreasonable to say "heavy woods are rare."
Gentlemen, I usually like to read your postings, and I find Bob's .sig file/disclaimer amusing and that it covers a multitude of opinions. However, he did not use it in his last post and having read this thread I felt the need to point out your mis-aprehensions (sp?) as well as accuse you of being a bit mule-headed on this issue!
Thank you for your time and attention. I sincerely look forward to thought provoking counter points (or inspired insults! :-)).
Chris
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:42 PM
205.231.94.136
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Right again you know everything.
The map stands with the extra trees and we will see if your ideas for vehicles is correct or not.
So how about you stop running off at the mouth and get ready for this. Don't want you whinning about losing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:45 PM
205.231.94.136
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But you see none of this is important, save only to Bob, who is upset over the map choices...if he had gone with book mechs and vehicles for this then he could have picked the maps.
So it's time for Bob to shut up on things he only has a passing amount of knowledge and get ready to fight my mechs.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:46 PM
205.231.94.136
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Nope not happening...the maps were fairly picked, if Bob doesn't like them, then after this battle is done he can refight it with someone else on a map set that he wants.
You see Bob demanded custom units, so by default I got to pick the maps. So tough luck for him.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:49 PM
205.231.94.136
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Boy oh boy, supporting of Bob are we?
Nope sorry my friend, was trying to KEEP the original maps flavor and even if it was all heavy woods should not Bob's so called ideas work even then? Since he built the vehicles should they not work in ALL terrain forms?
Right I am the one trying for fair play and you are suggesting I am trying to tilt things...gee why doesn't that suprise me.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:55 PM
205.231.94.136
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Bob's theories ARE NOT supported by the combat rules and the critical hits on vehicles along with the damage chart for loctions on vehicles. When he takes of the rose colored glasses and sees this then we can all get along better.
And have you looked at a map of the Eastern US? Lots of trees, lots of Cities...lots of things IN the way...and wait look at Europe lots of trees, lots of cities lots of other things around...and those are the among the important areas of the planet...
Right forgot for your brother's theories to work we need to play on the back side of the of the original maps with their blank white hexes and such...cause that is the only thing he would have going for him.
To bad he demanded custom units...but then again his ideas won't work so using books vehicles would have proven that faster, but hey I guess whinning and crying about it get's one their way.
And as it stands, he had the option of fixing an error with his vehicles, where as I left my mechs a lone...and he fears my use of THUNDER munitions and such things like Stealth armor so much that he threaten to use VTOLs...sound more to me that his worried about losing then anything else.
The maps stands with some extra trees toss in and if he doesn't like then he can refight the battle later on with some one else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
12/11/01 01:58 PM
205.231.94.136
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Let's see, I agreed to Bob's demand that it be custom mechs, I agreed he could use whatever he wanted as far as vehicles went, I even let him fix a math error with his vehicle.
SO far Bob has been the one who has been up in arms over the maps...really the only thing I have demanded...everything else he as complained or b----ed about...so how about getting him to live with the choice as it stands with extra trees tossed in and get this over with? Or are we all enjoying listing to his complaining and half baked ideas?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Korbel
12/11/01 02:16 PM
206.152.237.32
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ok now look at EVERY OTHER planet that we know of as of today... do you see Heavy woods on Mars, venus... mercury... How about the moon, Europa, or Pluto... Even in star trek, star wars, Babilion 5(whatever) and even BattleTech. Earth is a Rarity in its amount of liquid water and in its abundance of life & trees.. (well Endor had alot of trees... but Rare doesn't mean Exclusivel)
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Karagin
12/11/01 02:18 PM
205.231.94.136
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Question...the battle is NOT being fought on a lifeless planet...so pointing out that is meaningless to this battle.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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NathanKell
12/11/01 03:23 PM
24.44.238.206
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Neither is it being fought on Earth.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
NathanKell
12/11/01 03:36 PM
24.44.238.206
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Just what do you think Bob's theory is, anyway?
Because it certainly seems that you two disagree about what you're disagreeing about...
And there's very little point in arguing against something that your opponent isn't arguing for.
So I have a request:
Bob, please state, concisely and without insults, exactly what you're arguing.
Then and only then, Karagin, please state, concisely and without insults, whether you agree or disagree with that specific point.
Only then can we all figure out what environment to use.
And please remember: you can't prove a theory, only disprove it. If a theory is not disproved then it remains a theory, and open to continued testing; otherwise it's thrown out.
So, basically, if you want to disprove a theory, give it every advantage and then disprove it. If you want to leave the issue muddled, then try to create an artificial standard of "fairness." You may feel better, but you won't prove anything.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:12 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>Bob, please state, concisely and without insults, exactly what you're arguing. <<<
I have, and this is the last time.
My thesis:
A properly designed and employed force of vehicles can, under level 2 rules, defeat ANY given 'Mech force of equal tonnage.
You can clearly see where testing this thesis would require that:
1) The level 2 rules be obeyed to the letter. This means that optional rules cannot be forced on me (or on my opponent.)
2) Custom vehicles be used, and employed by a master of the technique of their use (though we can substitute me for this last.)
3) The terrain not be deliberately designed to the disadvantage of the force my opponent knows I am using. Karagin has DELIBERATELY CREATED TERRAIN THAT IS TO THE DISADVANTAGE OF HOVERCRAFT DEPENDENT ON SPEED AND LONG RANGE WEAPONRY. My mistake was in showing him my vehicles before he decided that he could select the terrain by deistic fiat.
So if Karagin is going to INSIST on a map PACKED with terrain UNENTERABLE by hovercraft and DESIGNED TO OBSTRUCT LOS, I will simply have to design a new force of vehicles.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:13 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>The map stands with the extra trees <<<
No, it doesn't.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
12/11/01 04:37 PM
134.121.144.40
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"Psychopompous" really isn't that hard to spell, just break it into its component words.
:)
Eh. No, I suppose Asia *IS* bigger. Silly me.
Antarctica is, however, a rather giant landmass with nary a tree in sight.
Personally, I'm a desert rat. I've stood on a mountain and seen for miles, and seen more dust and rock than trees. Sure, there are little clumps of them here and there, but nowhere will you see anything like a "Light Woods!"
If you travel along the banks of the Columbia River in southeastern Washington, you will find trees, but those trees are only the trees mankind has planted, and they are not nearly tall enough or thick enough to seriously obstruct the line of sight of a ten meter tall war machine.
And so I am seriously suspicious that Karagin's contention regarding 60% of Earth's landmass is (presently, at least) false. Karagin, of course, believes that 60% of Earth's surface looks more like the US East Coast (next to an ocean and backed by a mountain range) rather than the far larger inland areas (shielded from the oceans by massive mountains.
And even IF his contention is true of Earth, who's to say it holds for the majority of inhabited planets in Btech? New Avalon is RARE in being an earthlike world. Planets like Dustball and Suk II are FAR more common. Most worlds are only MARGINALLY habitable, and that only due to human intervention.
On some planets, treelike species may have yet to evolve, and might not have been brought along by human settlers.
So I would say it IS quite safe to say that where humans are, heavy woods are QUITE rare.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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NathanKell
12/11/01 05:07 PM
24.44.238.206
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OK.
A properly designed and employed force of vehicles can, under level 2 rules, defeat ANY given 'Mech force of equal tonnage.
Karagin:
Do you agree or disagree with this specific contention, including the above caveats? Note that this above contention specifically and only applies to well-designed vehicles. No mention of custom or stock vehicles is made, nor should there have been. The source of a well-designed vehicle does not matter and has no bearing on how to disprove the above contention.
If you do not believe that A properly designed and employed force of vehicles can, under level 2 rules, defeat ANY given 'Mech force of equal tonnage, then, if you wish to disprove this contention, you must show that even in a best-case scenario it is not true. If you show that in a middling-case (or even in, as you seem to wish, a worst-case) scenario the above contention is false you have not disproved it.
That's how disproving a theorem works.
-NathanKell, BT Space Wars
Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.
Thomas Jefferson |
damourc
12/11/01 05:25 PM
24.214.45.179
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"That's nice, but it has very little to do with anyhting I've said on the subject... So, your inclusion of me is rather disturbing."
Hrmmnnn... You are 100% correct. I thought that you posted a message upthread that I can not find. Evidently I am hallucinating! Dain Bramage on my part. Sorry about that Chief!
Chris "dazed, tired and confused, nothing unusual" Damour
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damourc
12/11/01 06:09 PM
24.214.45.179
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No, it is not. However, for some dang reason every time I see "Psychopompous" my brain mis-processes it as "Psychomorphous", and I know it is wrong. I was actually trying to NOT be insulting. I seem to have failed miserably...
Sorry guy, there were trees along the Columbia long before man planted 'em. The BT definition of "light woods" is "...covered with sparse trees of up to 12 meters in height." Are you saying that you believe that there are not even enough trees to be "sparse"? (Serious question, not trying to be snide.) And I am not sure that Karagin's 60% figure is that far off, even with deforestation caused by man. However, I have not had the opportunity to follow up on it.
Now, I still disagree with your "where humans are, heavy woods are QUITE rare." comment, because it would depend heavily on why the humans are there. If it is an industrial area/corn field/longer dang list than I play to type you are correct. But if the primary industry is lumber/nut production/another huge honking list I believe that you are incorrect.
Further, I belive that you are correct that a commander is only going to fight on terrain of his choosing OR if he has no other choice. If you are trying to destroy a guerilla force that is holed up in mountain caves (just to pick an example at random  ) you are going to have to fight there. If you don't care if they continue to exist, you just want to keep them out of your city, you just leave them alone and set up patrols for all of the surrounding areas.
Thoughts?
Chris
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Nightmare
12/11/01 07:36 PM
194.251.240.107
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So why not fight on a completely flat, featureless map?
No woods, no hills, nothing to disturb LOS. That way
you eliminate a lot of variables from your experiment.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Bob_Richter
12/11/01 08:57 PM
134.121.144.40
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>>>I seem to have failed miserably... <<<
Nope. So far as I know, noone here is offended. :)
>>>Sorry guy, there were trees along the Columbia long before man planted 'em.<<<
This says nothing to my claim that in southeastern washington, even right next to the mighty Columbia, there are few naturally occuring trees. Our wild plant-life runs more towards tackweed and sagebrush than trees.
>>> Are you saying that you believe that there are not even enough trees to be "sparse"?<<
Quite frankly, yes. You will have trouble finding two trees within 30 meters of each other (outside of a city park or irrigated lawn.) Since this is the definition of a section of terrain in btech, and the term "trees" is distinctly plural...
>>>Now, I still disagree with your "where humans are, heavy woods are QUITE rare."
comment, because it would depend heavily on why the humans are there.<<<
Don't take my comments out of context like that. I was talking about the Btech universe at that point, and my contention stands.
Even today, lumberjacks are a tiny percentage of the human populace. In Battletech there are whole desert worlds to be settled.
Besides, humans and trees don't really get along. Humans like buildings and roads, both of which usually require cutting down trees (or, in the case of my favorite semi-arid desert, pulling up tackweed and importing lumber.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Korbel
12/12/01 10:42 AM
206.152.237.32
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hehe About time someone looked at that... Thats what the <.p.> is for... breaking them into their own little words...
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Karagin
12/12/01 11:30 AM
63.173.170.217
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No way Bob...you claim YOUR ideas make vehicles the equal of mechs, then deal with the terrain as given.
OTHERWISE you are porving your ideas have no vaild points and are wrong.
So I guess this means you forfit the game right?
Otherwise SHUT UP and let's get this over with.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Acolyte
12/17/01 12:23 AM
142.179.25.241
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Because that is not how BattleTech is fought. This is a debate over whether vehicles or 'Mechs are better - in BattleTech. If there were a string of battles then this would provide some interesting DATA.
Light a fire for a man, and you keep him warm for one night,
Light a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Acolyte
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/28/08 11:12 AM
99.200.59.226
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So what was the final result?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
07/28/08 11:14 AM
157.157.83.10
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Good god, man, I know it's been done before, but isn't it somewhat bad form to dig up a seven year old thread just to ask that question?
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/28/08 01:27 PM
70.0.114.213
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Well if they had the good form to say what the results where. I would not have needed to ask, now would I. And who ever said asses had good form?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Lafeel
07/28/08 01:56 PM
157.157.83.10
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True enough, but if you ask me there really is no single answer. They each have their strengths and weaknesses (the vehicles lost a major one though when they finally put a roof on the amount of armor you can put on them), but in the right circumstances they can be just as deadly as mech's.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/28/08 02:43 PM
70.0.114.213
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There is now a roof on armor? Unlimited armor is the major advantage to vehicles.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Lafeel
07/28/08 02:50 PM
157.157.83.10
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Yup. Tonnage of vehicle multiplied by 3,5+40. Was reading through the Tech Manual and ran into it. It still means you can armor your vehicle heavily, it just means there is a actual sensible limit to how far you can go.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/28/08 02:55 PM
70.0.114.213
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I assume you meant 3.5 not 3,5
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Lafeel
07/28/08 02:56 PM
157.157.83.10
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3 and a half, yes.
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