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Bloodrider
12/10/02 12:45 PM
152.163.189.136

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Would the game have been better with some encumbrance rules for 'Mechs and vehicles?
The reason I ask is that during WW2 the Germans and Russians used to put all sorts of additions on their tanks to beef up their armor, including slabs of concrete. So I was just wondering if anyone thought the game would have been better if it had rules that allowed something like this, particularly in the 3025 era.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
Karagin
12/10/02 05:47 PM
68.21.149.186

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There is this already for vehicles since if you add anything to the vehicles you increase the weight and take the speed down...BUT looking at it from a real life point of view it takes a lot of weight to slow a tank down or a truck for that matter,

I drive a truck for the US Army, it can haul 16 tons of material, that is it's offical rated limit, BUT it can haul heavier loads without any noticable reduction in speed or preformance.

It takes several tons of additional weight to slow a tank down, not just adding troops to the tank or slapping on an extra MG or what not.

So if you want to do this you really have to either go the way FASA has things, any amount of weight cuts the speed or makes the unit to heavy for it's tonnage, more true with mechs then vehicles, do to the 5 ton rule for mechs or you have a new speed chart or way that speed is figured out.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Bloodrider
12/10/02 06:27 PM
205.188.209.77

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Hmm... forgot about that vehicle rule
I need to come up with some sort of model for conducting stress tests on internal structures to see how much weight the different types could support before collapsing under the load. Data on the power output of fusion engines would help, too. I think, though, that just from a physics point of view, a 'Mech should be able to carry a considerable load in addition to its own mass without any appreciable loss of performance. Not that I plan to put slabs of concrete on a 'Mech of course, but being able to carry cargo would come in useful at times. I know in the fiction that 'Mechs are supposed to be able to carry loads, otherwise merc groups like Avanti's Angels wouldn't be able to just pick up severed BattleMech limbs for salvage the way they do. Granted, a 'Mech probably can't pick up another 'Mech (unless maybe it's a 100 ton model picking up a 20 tonner), but they should still be able to carry extra weight. Hmm, wonder if I can find some kind of analog for internal structure by prowling around over at NASA's site...cya
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
Zwischy
12/12/02 03:58 PM
63.52.44.67

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Actually, I thought there were some rudimentary encumberance rules either in the BMR rulebook or in one of the scenario books I own...I want to say the Fox's Teeth...

Anyway, I think I once read something somewhere where it said a Mech could carry up to half its tonnage at 3/4 movment and up to its tonnage at 1/2 movement. Something along those lines. Maybe that was just for a particular scenario, though.

At any rate, does it really matter? It's a game system! Make up your own rules to fit your sense of reality, I say. Just use the basic rules as general guidelines as to how Mechs function.
Bloodrider
12/12/02 04:52 PM
64.12.96.167

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Hmm, I've never even got to see the Fox's Teeth, much less read it. I'm jealous. You lucky stiff
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
Vapor
12/12/02 11:52 PM
202.128.69.204

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There is a rule in the BMR related to this subject, though I can't recall it off the top of my head. It has to do with carrying cargo on a 'Mech or vehicle, though I suppose it could be modified for strapping "slabs of concrete" onto a 'Mech. lol I can't recall the exact penalties for carrying internal cargo, though I think it states that a 'Mech can carry up to 25% of it's weight in it's arms, in which both arms must be used, and no weapons in the arms and torso (I think) can be fired while carrying whatever the item(s) is/are. The 'Mech can drop the cargo at any time, though. PLEASE don't quote me on this, because I'm sure my memory is incorrect. lol I just know that the BMR has a rule about cargo carrying capabilities.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
Bloodrider
12/13/02 08:37 AM
64.12.96.167

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Thanks. I'll look in my BMR again and see if I can find it.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
Cadet
01/07/03 09:46 PM
206.102.34.64

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Remember when I asked about just that? An Omni Mech carrying 5 tons of oranges in a sack does have encumbrance and loss of speed, but the same Omni carrying 5 elementals doesn't. FASA Physics at work again.

I figure just ignore them encumbrance rules. They don't make sense anyways.
Does not play well with others.
Countergod
01/08/03 12:03 PM
128.165.156.80

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Let me ask you this, do you want to have an ultra complicated game that takes hours to get through one turn (besides when you take company vs company ) ? the whole point of the game was supposed to be fast paced and fun, not realistic. do you think you could actually have a magnetically accelerated rail gun for 15 tons? heck do you know the power requirements for that?! do you really want to spend decades on an invasion? because K-F drives are illegal by Ensteinian Physics (though it does mention that in the books )

Another good voilator is the Gyro. I have taken rather advanced physics, and I know that it MIGHT be possible to get a mech to stand with a gyroscope. BUT that is a MIGHT, nowhere near reality. and the gyro would have to have the spokes on the wheel pointing towards the arms to keep it from falling foward (sideways I suppose is taken care of by the feet being spread out) The way I have seen it picutred, I dont even see how one could stand and the gyro would have to be heavier for the heavier mech. if there were a larger gyro on the same mech, it should get a piloting bonus.

But only if the Laws of physics applied
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
realworldviews
01/11/03 07:08 PM
24.98.67.67

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You know... you got a point there.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
Vapor
01/11/03 11:52 PM
202.128.69.122

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Well, there are several differences between 5 tons of oranges in a sack and 5 elementals. Namely, the fact that the oranges are inanimate, while I would expect the elementals would have the sense to stay the hell out of the way of any moving parts when the 'Mech is in motion.

Also, the 5 tons of oranges would be a little bulkier than the elementals due to density considerations.

I do agree that 'Mechs carrying elementals should not be able to avoid encumberance rules completely, but I don't agree that the effects of carrying elementals should be identical to that of carrying the oranges.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
spork
01/12/03 07:00 AM
24.208.151.50

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I would have to disagree with you on this one. Gyro's are actuallly very simple components. All the gyro does, is tell you which way is up. It is up to the mechanics of the machine to take that information and keep the machine balanced. Gyro's have been used for decades on all sorts of equipment, from rockets, to aircraft, tanks etc... gyros do not need to be large at all.

as far as robots standing up. Guess what, Honda has a whole series of semi-automous robots that are bipedal, and can navigate by themselves, including going up and down stairs. Stereoscopic vision for navigation. The main problem with them... battery life.

The most unrealistic thing about BT, is the power plants that the mechs use. power on demand? how do these things function? In reality, you would need massive batteries to collect and store the energy generated by the powerplant.

The game mistakenly calls the power plants "fusion" engines, when they act more like a "fission" reator. only problem is, there would be no possible way to use either of these type reactors in a machine that gets jostled around as much as a mech. They would have a core breach just trying to walk!
spork
01/12/03 07:04 AM
24.208.151.50

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At one time, I started writing a game based on BT, but using more real world type physics. It was a fun mental activity for me, but the game and the mechanics of the game became so complicated, that it would be next to impossible to play on paper. It would work if programed into the computer, and have the computer take care of all the background info.

I still toy with it at times, refining it here and there.

BT, was meant to be playble, and not necessarily realistic.
Vapor
01/12/03 07:22 AM
202.128.69.122

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I agree that gyros are fairly simple components. However, the bigger the object they are stabilizing, the bigger the gyro has to be in order to do it's job. If it's too small, it's effects will be negligible at best.

In reply to:

The most unrealistic thing about BT, is the power plants that the mechs use. power on demand? how do these things function? In reality, you would need massive batteries to collect and store the energy generated by the powerplant.




This is true, for the most part. However, there is not a large demand for power when the 'Mech is simply moving. The myomer muscles don't require a large amount of power to operate. The main drain on the engine would be the weapons. Ballistic and missile weapons obviously would not be much of a drain at all. Energy weapons, however, would be a large drain. If I remember correctly, most of them use capacitors of some sort to store a charge before they are fired, then draw off the power from the engine to recharge the capacitor. The engine, being basically a small nuclear powerplant, is capable of producing several Gigawatts of power, so there should be enough power available for the weapons when needed.

In reply to:

The game mistakenly calls the power plants "fusion" engines, when they act more like a "fission" reator. only problem is, there would be no possible way to use either of these type reactors in a machine that gets jostled around as much as a mech. They would have a core breach just trying to walk!




Fusion reactors are theoretically possible, though to my knowledge a functioning one hasn't been built, yet. The main problem with using one to power a 'Mech, however, is fitting the bloody thing INSIDE the 'Mech. Maybe they can make them that small 1,000 years from now. In any case, whether the engine is fusion or fission, anything less than a nuclear reactor wouldn't be sufficient to provide adequate power to the weapons.

As far as the jostling goes, if they can make a fusion reactor that small, I'm sure they can make a gyro-stabilized, gymbal mount to hold it. That way, the reactor would always be right-side up, no matter what the orientation of the 'Mech is. Yes, heavy impacts would still run the risk of breaching the engine's shielding, but with the gymbal mount, normal movement wouldn't be such a critical factor.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
Vapor
01/12/03 07:27 AM
202.128.69.122

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In reply to:

BT, was meant to be playble, and not necessarily realistic.




lol some people need to be reminded of this constantly. Allow me to quote an exerpt from MechWarrior, 3rd Edition: "It should be noted that the combat system in MW3 - like the system of its cousin BattleTech - is not intended to be a simulation of reality. It was created to resolve combat situations quickly and easily, and the results of the attacks are intended to be somewhat realistic, if not 'real-world accurate.'"
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
Bob_Richter
01/12/03 10:44 AM
4.35.174.250

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>>>Honda has a whole series of semi-automous robots that are bipedal, and can navigate by themselves, including going up and down stairs.<<<

And don't forget, they can play soccer.

One of these years, they'll have a Robot Soccer Team to take on the World Cup Champion...:)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter

Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
spork
01/12/03 03:52 PM
24.208.151.50

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I hadn't thought of putting a power plant in a gimble. Nice idea. Not sure how the power hook ups would work, especially if the mech took a tumble.... I guess they have that figured out in the future... but then again, how about a solar powered mech? No moving parts necessary.

The gyro, still wouldn't weigh in the tons. It would be much smaller than what the BT world would have you believe.

Now, let's talk about control equipment. My favorite: the control couch, and neuro helment! WIth the size of the gyro, why would they need a neuro helment to align the gyro? The gyro's job is to remain upright (for lack of better term) why would you need the inner ear? wouldn't that negate the need for a gyro?

How do you control a Mech with joysticks? This is the way the mechs are always portrayed. Fine for combat, but these things have hands, and are supposed to be able to pick stuff up etc... Wouldn't a Waldo Unit be a better control device? For the most part, wouldn't it be easier to control such a large machine if you had a pilot, and a seperate gunner? Pilot, with a Waldo Unit, and gunner with joysticks?

OK, my last complaint about the cockpit... the wimpy life support system. we are led to believe these things can survive in hostile environments, yet cannot control the heat from the engine??? no ac? no insulation?

I have even more ideas/complaints if you want to hear them... but, I understand the need to keep things simple for game play... just think there would be a better way, and yet keep it simple.
Nightward
01/12/03 04:28 PM
210.50.60.141

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The fiction always describes the cockpit as sitting right over the reactor, and that heat leaks directly from the reactor into the cockpit. I think theyre doing pretty well not to have the MechWarriors char-grill themselves half the time, eh?

I also got the impression that (as with the Evangelions) the 'Mech's movements were mostly controlled via the Neurohelmet and that the controls were more somatic foci than necessary control points. Since 'Mechs can supposedly be piloted without a Neurohelmet, but perform badly and fall over a lot, this seems to back it up.

I don't understand why gyros weigh so much, either. If I were in charge, I'd have everyone equipped with direct neural links to their 'Mechs so they were controlled as part of the 'MechWarrior's body and eleminate them entirely. But that's just me.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Countergod
01/13/03 08:51 AM
128.165.156.80

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can any of you imagine trying to balance a 100 ton slab of metal on two legs?! I am kinda suprised the legs ccan hold the enire body, but that beside...... the stronger a gyro, the more force is needed to tip the mech over. Now does it make sense for the Annialator, a 100 ton mech to have a smaller gyro than say.... the Trebuchet, which is 50tons? I mean sure it should be harder to balance a faster moving mech, but howabout the heavier mech? I think that you should be able to devote extra tonnage to the gyro to make it more stable.

another problem with the gyro is that in every picture I ahve seen, it is a wheel that "points" fowards and backwards. now, a gyroscope provides a torque that prevents it from twisting side to side, in this case, towards the legs. but that is the direction that doesnt need balancing! there is a leg on each side, thus it isnt knocked down easily. the concern is fowards and bacwards. For a human, you generally fall foward or backwards, not side to side, so it is imaginable that it is the same for a mech. So the gyro should point towards the legs to prevent taht, then you would have a more stable mech, and no falling damage
***Chemistry is like art. One wrong move can really ruin your day!***

To: All other empire leaders
From: Maj. NevLord Madman (Mad Man's Marauders [STB] )
Subject: Hi Neveron
Date Sent: 7/12/3222 12:50:00 AM

May i just point out u all suck
Maj. NevLord Madman
Nightward
01/13/03 09:03 PM
211.26.3.18

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Perhaps the mass of the gyro being based on the engine size is indicitive of the speed the 'Mech can generate and the difficulty of balancing the 'Mech's inertia for its size. Or something. Ask Cray, he knows all this stuff. I'm a Biochemistry major, not an engineer or phycisist.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Vapor
01/13/03 11:56 PM
202.128.69.122

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I agree they didn't do a good job of aligning the gyro in the pictures you've seen. However, the way you want to align it (vertially, with the edges of the gyro facing each leg if I understand you correctly) will create the same inherent problem that the gyros in the pictures will create. ie. They would make turning more difficult.

Gyros create stabilization by preventing (or attempting to prevent) any movement that changes it's axis of rotation. (ie. it will resist an attempt to turn it from rotating horizontally to rotating vertically) Any movement that occurs around the axis of rotation is not hindered at all.

Therefore, a gyro that is spinning vertically in a 'Mech will only provide limited stabilization. If it is "pointing" forwards and backwards, it will provide stabilization to the side, and not to the front (as you correctly pointed out). However, if you try to turn the 'Mech, the gyro will resist the turn because you are changing it's axis of rotation. The same would apply if the gyro were mounted vertically and facing the legs (good stability forward and backward, little stability to the sides, but poor turning capability).

In my opinion, the best positioning for the gyro would be to mount it so that it is rotating horizontally. This way, there will be good stability to the front, back, AND sides, and the gyro will not resist any attempt to turn the mech because the axis of the turn is along the axis of rotation.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
MadWolf
01/14/03 10:40 AM
134.53.140.104

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This is what i have to say. A nuclear power plant produces Power via steam. Yes Steam. They super heat the water using a controled nuclear reaction. The Steam then turns a trubine for power. The Water is then re-condensed and heated again. To the plan on a mech would have to do all of this with that reactor unless they acctually do find away for direct absorbsion and conversion of the enegry released from a nuclear reaction. This has only been pondered in theroy because they would have to use a magnetic field hold the super heated plasma to use to obsorb the enegry. ( at least this is what i remember from my physics class.)
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
MadWolf
01/14/03 10:56 AM
134.53.140.104

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Here's my rant to you about the cockpits life support.
A cooling vest is used to kool the pilot as best as possible. This allows the cost effective ness that if a pilot dies or a mech is downed they can just go grab it ( assumeing that it hasn't been ruptured) and give it to someone elesewithout tearing the cockpit all apart to get the personal cooling system. That and a guy that was piloting a panther can get out of it and go jump into an awesome and just plug in with ease. ( I guess that the starleague set a standard on a unaversial adapter for the cooling hook ups.) This cooling vest would seem a lot easyer to use than a clunky compressor, and probably more cost effective.Also a AC unit would have to pull alot of power away from the the other more important things like targeting systems and fire control systems. Lord knows that dealing with having to choose that XL to make you design work is a pain as it is. There are also alot more parts that can just quit and leave the pilot fried in Idle. If i pilot dies in a heat storm, because he thinks he can fire 4 ppc shots on 10 shs, that pilot is expendable. if Dumb@$$ made himself KFC he's not worth it anyway, a pilot is worth alot less than the mech is. i think that thats the differance. And you know for a 5 ton targeting computer i would expect alot more than 256 colors
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
Vapor
01/15/03 06:39 AM
202.123.138.63

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I know how power plants work. True, I was oversimplifying my explanation a little. However, assuming it is possible to make a fission reactor that small (assuming the fission reactor in the first place ), I am sure they can make a water system for the reactor that is proportionately small. They've got another 1,000 years to work on it, after all.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC

"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
MadWolf
01/15/03 11:41 AM
134.53.144.11

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I'd just hate to see what happens if a missle were to ever wiggle its little warhead into the steam lines and how icky that would end up.
Nothing is Impossible, It is only Improbable.
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