Ignorant_Savage
01/15/04 12:40 AM
24.197.176.136
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Well, i've been out of the loop as of late (the past 2 years). I've been hearing alot of talk about 'Dark Age', and alot of refrences to it on the forums here. Can someone fill me in on what this is all about?
I have a strange feeling that i'm not going to like this 
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Cray
01/15/04 06:44 AM
68.200.106.169
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DON'T PANIC!!!
(Worked for hitcherhiker's guide to the galaxy, right?)
First, do not worry. If you decide you do not like Dark Ages, the normal Battletech setting you know is still available. The 3060s era in BT is still be supported and developed; several new rule books are due out for "Classic Battletech" over the next year. If you only want to play normal BT, then you should have no worries - the game is still alive, well, and expanding.
Dark Ages is what FASA had been planning before it folded. FASA was going to jump the Battletech timeline forward about 80 years (to the 3130s) to get rid of all the tangled up story lines, continuity errors, and over-used characters. This was comparable to, but larger than, the jump from 3030 to 3050 (the "20 Year Update.")
Dark Ages would come about when the Word of Blake, the Comstar splinter group, launched a campaign of terror and civil war in the Inner Sphere. WoB talked all of its many allies (who rarely knew WoB had other allies) into attacking their hated neighbors, or rebelling against their "oppressive" House lords. After about fifteen years with bloodshed on the scale of the First Succession War, Word of Blake was defeated. It was hunted down on its stronghold, Terra, and crushed.
One of the heroes of the Jihad was a dude named Devlin Stone. Devlin got the idea in his head that he would form a new nation in the heart of the Inner Sphere, known as "Republic of the Sphere." He had an easy time talking most Houses into going along with this because the areas that had rebelled were generally those in the center of the Inner Sphere - the Isle of Skye, Tikonov, etc - and the areas worst damaged in the Jihad (i.e., most expensive to rebuild) were also there. So the Houses saved themselves a lot of trouble and turned the areas over to Stone. Basically, the Republic of the Sphere (RotS) is a reborn Terran Hegemony.
But whereas the Terran Hegemony had its act together for 400 years, RotS cannot pour piss out of a boot without a road map.
To make his nation work, Stone had to make a lot of compromises. He made forced relocations of "ethnic" groups to break up large nationalities (for example, a lot of House Liao planets forced into the Republic did not want to be there, so a lot of Davion and Kurita folks were shipped to those planets, and a lot of Capellans were shipped away).
That's all coming back to bite the RotS in the ass in 3130, when Someone or Something shut down the HPG network. Suddenly all those little factions decided, "Well, it's time we rejoin our parent nation!" or "It's time we formed our own nation!" and now the RotS is disintegrating.
The setting is called a "Dark Age" because the HPG network is shut down, but actually a lot of battlemechs use L3 equipment from MaxTech - technology has not stood still or reversed.
WHAT THE JIHAD MEANS TO YOU
Big battles! Finally, after a decade of farting around since Operation Bulldog, there's going to be some large scale warfare in the Inner Sphere! And not only that, the Jihad will the be first LONG war in a long time, since the Third Succession War. There'll be bad guys who are Bad Guys and you won't feel conflicted about slaughtering them!
The Jihad starts at the end of 3067; it looks like there's a year to go before a Jihad sourcebook is unveiled.
WHAT THE DARK AGE MEANS TO YOU
1) Nothing. You can keep playing in the 3060s era.
2) A fresh start. Get Record Sheets: Mechwarrior Dark Age and start designing L3 high-tech wunder mechs. Defend the RotS, make a breakaway nation, or lead House armies to reconquer the silly Republic of the Sphere! Don't worry about old characters from the novels and sourcebooks - Dark Ages is a fresh new era to begin in, where you don't have to worry about stepping on Official Storylines.
3) A chance to play a new game. While Dark Ages can be played with normal Battletech rules, you can also use the new, quick and streamlined "click base" figurines and rules from Wizkids. That's not my thing, but it might work for you.
FALSEHOODS YOU MIGHT HEAR ABOUT DARK AGES
1) They took away the mechs.
This is not true. The Republic of the Sphere prevented *private citizens* from owning mechs. Nobles could keep their mechs if they joined the militia. Other Houses did not follow this policy. The RotS continued to build mechs. In fact, it was recently revealed to be violating its own laws by operating a Secret Mech Factory for years.
2) The whole Inner Sphere demilitarized.
Hell, no. There's been several wars since the Jihad. The Capellans attempted to invade the RotS to reclaim their lost worlds. The remnants of the FWL fight amongst themselves constantly. There was a general reduction in military sizes after the Jihad, but they were not eliminated.
3) Tech is declining.
Nope. The only "dark ages" thing about the Dark Ages is the shut down of the HPGs and civil war in the RotS. The normal Battletech rule book issued for the Dark Ages thus far, a set of Record Sheets, showed several items of L3 equipment on battlemechs.
4) Only WorkMechs are available.
Nope. Battlemechs and every other kind of war machine stalk the battlefields of the Dark Ages. Many of the silly little splinter groups in the Republic of the Sphere do not have easy access to Battlemechs, so they make do with converted WorkMechs, but Battlemechs are out there.
5) Dark Ages and Classic Battletech are separate time lines.
This is the fondest wish of some people, but it's not true. Classic Battletech will be exploring and detailing how the Dark Ages came about by starting with the Jihad. There's years and years and years of products before CBT catches up with the Dark Ages setting, but they are one and the same.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/17/04 11:42 AM
213.187.148.138
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Let's see you forgot the nukes, the massive use of WMDs etc...and yes they did take the mechs away...no more dad's mech to son kind of thing that was BT...
Let's see you failed to mention that when ROTS get's the big boost of profit and trade from removing all of the privately owned mechs the other houses are forced to do the same to stay in the running finically.
Let's see you failed to mention that the playing pieces aren't compatiable both ways...you can't use any CBT items in MWDA.
The bottom line here is that CBT and MWDA are two completely different games that don't offer either one anything useful and before anyone tries to say other wise, please show me the rules to intergrate CBT to MWDA...
Because unlike Aerotech 1 or 2 or any of the other box games of BT, which could be plugged into the basic BT game, MWDA can't since the mechs as made by BT rules for the most part end up being level 3 units and thus don't fall into tournement play and don't make for 100% everyday use.
So given that CBT has some life left...and that it's sales help keep MageKnight and the Baseball clicky tech alive as well as other WK games, we should be more focused on that and not MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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tgsofgc
01/17/04 07:16 PM
67.4.194.58
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Well Cray you certainly made that sound apetizing without even mentioning that MWDA is actually a totally seperate game produced by Wizkids. Currently the Dark Age setting is only used in this game a "clicky tech" venture which emphasizes collectable minitures you buy in bliser packs. Alot of resentment on the matter stems from how WK has handled this game.
Namely they have promoted it while Fanpro and the "Classic" (read as: Real) Battletech are treated like a bastard step child. The game is basically a super simplified version of the Battletech table top rules and is based on a completely different scale (ie not interchangable, clever eh?). The game also earned a fair amount of scorn when the early expansions have been filled with a large number of battlemechs converted to utility 'mechs converted back to battlemechs. something hardly feasiable with the patterns we have seen in the Inner Sphere for the last 300+ years. Also many have complained about the poor quality of the fiction, which has fully replaced "Classic" battletech fiction (in that it is no longer available).
The DA setting will theoretically come to Classic Battletech but recently thay have made a nod to the general dissaproval of the community and have released a "retro" book detailing the war of 3039. If this sells well the DA may be supplemented by many such retroproducts (at least I hope). As to the Level 3 tech most of it is very mild (most balanced maxtech stuff) such as Light Ferro Fibrous armor. If the setting becomes common place in Classic Battletech I wouldn't be surprised to see a certain amount of this tech made level 2. As to Karagins comment about Classic Battletech being what keeps mage knight afloat this is a bit overboard. Battletech has had slumping sales for years especially in comparision to simpler miniture games aimed at a younger audience (such as mage knight), that is at least partially why FASA closed shop afterall. So to even imply Classic Battletehc as being a powerful economic force is probally a little silly, I think if propperly advertised it could easily surpas the clicky tech MWDA though.
PS. If you haven't noticed DA brings up some ummmm heated debate.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Cray
01/17/04 08:09 PM
24.27.227.73
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Let's see you forgot the nukes, the massive use of WMDs etc...
I use the comparison to the First Succession War, and you think I forgot the nukes. Well, it is correct I did not mention the use WMDs explicitly. However, I did not forget them. I also did not forget (and will now mention) that the WoB downfall began when they began to run low on WMDs, and the anti-WoB forces were able to rally with conventional troops. There are some BIG conventional battles waiting to be played out.
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...and yes they did take the mechs away...no more dad's mech to son kind of thing that was BT...
I also said they took away privately owned mechs (except for those owned by nobles).
But who cares? The standing militaries still have their mechs. The era of the privately owned mech was mostly dead a generation before the Jihad; it is still not entirely dead in the MWDA era.
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Let's see you failed to mention that when ROTS get's the big boost of profit and trade from removing all of the privately owned mechs the other houses are forced to do the same to stay in the running finically.
I'm starting to think you did not read my post very closely, Karagin. While I did not mention the RotS was behind the general reduction in troop strengths, I did specifically mention a reduction in troop strengths around the Inner Sphere.
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MWDA can't since the mechs as made by BT rules for the most part end up being level 3 units and thus don't fall into tournement play and don't make for 100% everyday use.
OK. There's the Record Sheets: Dark Ages, which, as you noted, are L3. However, those mechs are also everyday mechs for the Dark Age setting, so I'm not sure I follow your issue. RS:MWDA is regularizing L3 tech into L2 tech for the MWDA setting, which is cool by my book.
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So given that CBT has some life left...and that it's sales help keep MageKnight and the Baseball clicky tech alive
That's a bit of a reversal of how things work, and you know it. FASA was not able to turn a profit on BT; and folded. Wizkids was able to pick up FASA's intellectual properties with its large profit margins from MageKnight, and sustain both Shadowrun and Battletech until FanPro could get them functional. I really doubt the licensing fees FanPro pays (if any) is doing much for Wizkids.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
01/17/04 08:39 PM
24.27.227.73
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Currently the Dark Age setting is only used in this game a "clicky tech" venture which emphasizes collectable minitures you buy in bliser packs.
That is false. You know very well that there is already a CBT product for MWDA, the RS:MWDA, and that any player is quite able to apply CBT rules to the MWDA setting. The mechs, major plots, and major NPCs are known - all you need is the Battletech Master Rules to play in the MWDA setting. If you cannot play CBT in the MWDA era, you're not trying hard enough, or you're raising artificial barriers to game play.
It is perfectly adequate to declare, "'K, the Capellans are attacking this RotS planet with 8 Vindicators and 4 Thunderbolts. Defenders include four mining mechs and a company of Po tanks." There's no conversion needed, no need to worry about different game scales unless you wanted a compulsively correct one-to-one official translation of some "unique" clicktech unit.
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Namely they have promoted it while Fanpro and the "Classic" (read as: Real) Battletech are treated like a bastard step child.
To rephrase that, CBT does not sell well. MageKnight and MWDA/Clicktech does. The lack of interest in CBT can come across like official neglect, especially in comparison to a profitable game (one with money for advertizing) like MWDA/Clicktech.
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The game also earned a fair amount of scorn when the early expansions have been filled with a large number of battlemechs converted to utility 'mechs converted back to battlemechs.
Yeah, there was a fair amount of scorn for the first release of DnD 3E/d20, too. People didn't understand the logic behind the widespread use of utility mechs because they had a tiny fraction of the story, so they looked at what they knew (pre-Jihad Inner Sphere, where 'mechs were important and needed) and looked at the MWDA setting (where mechs were apparently abandoned), and railed like banshees.
When you start looking at the carnage of the Jihad (recently cited in MWDA releases as reaching 1 trillion dead), the interest in reduction of troop strengths and leaving on the governments in control of battlemechs make a lot more sense - people were tired of war. When you factor in the typical post-War scramble of defense contractors to find a market when only one or two battlemech factories per House would have battlemech contracts, understandably there would be a lot of utility mechs as battlemech lines were changed to civilian production (vs. no production, given the enforced lack of market).
So when the HPG net shut down and RotS began suffering a multi-sided civil war (plus the first external invasions - good luck, Capellans!), people only had utility mechs to use for war. So they converted them.
Do you actually have any examples of battlemechs being turned into utility mechs? All utility mechs that I know of were built from the factory as utility mechs. They have different internal structures and movement rules than battlemechs; it's not a convertable thing.
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Also many have complained about the poor quality of the fiction,
Yeah, they made some bad author choices for MWDA fiction. The selected authors knew too little about BT. Jumping, mid-air flipping battlemechs, indeed.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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tgsofgc
01/17/04 11:47 PM
67.4.199.247
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First of all let me say my understanding of the release schedual over at CBt is haphazard at best, I wasn't even sure if MWDA record sheets were out yet or not. Still I would hold that the setting ismainly, at least currently, a product of the clicky tech game. Sure you can use it in CBT but there doesn't exist, imho, enough of a basis for even those inclined to make good use of it. Sure there are Record Sheets and there may even be a TRO (not sure on that one...) but there aren't scenarios, or the big "fluff" books like Field manuals set in the period yet (that i know of...). So yes while you can play in it, you can play in practically anything. It is the releases that are responsible for making the universe colorful and I haven't seen enough, nor enough interesting ones of these imo, to turn it into a true CBT setting yet (again imo).
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To rephrase that, CBT does not sell well. MageKnight and MWDA/Clicktech does. The lack of interest in CBT can come across like official neglect, especially in comparison to a profitable game (one with money for advertizing) like MWDA/Clicktech.
As I tried to put across in my comment, which was partially a response to Karagin is that yes "clicky tech" outsells CBT, and probally will continue to do so well into the future. However, like many I feel that WK may be able to turn there deal with Fanpro into a more profitable venture if both simply invested in more advertising. As is I have seen adds and promotional deals for MWDA in magazines, let along the huge displays in game stores, while the nearest hobby/game stores to me don't even carry more than the CBT boxed set. Is this an issue of profit margins, possibly. But is it also an issue of exposure, I think so.
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Do you actually have any examples of battlemechs being turned into utility mechs? All utility mechs that I know of were built from the factory as utility mechs. They have different internal structures and movement rules than battlemechs; it's not a convertable thing.
No, this was my take on what happened from various complaints... I guess I was mislead. Personally I have yet to, and don't plan to, purchase any products for MWDA "clicky tech" game. I have too much invested in CBT and from what I have read about gameplay, I am not intrested in the game. If more MWDA material is released for CBT I may try to get my hands on it though, especially a "fluff" book of some length detailing the changes as well as new mech designs (an expanded 20 year update book if you will). Though any future purchases would depend upon what i thought of such a product. Till a product like this comes out I guess its moot.
Covert Ops is still the 3060s right?
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Nightward
01/18/04 02:40 AM
202.141.216.73
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Something ate Warner's hard drive. All the HMP files for RS: MW DA have been lost.
To me, the fact that they're all apparently Level 3 kinda defeats the point. I loathe and detest most L3 gear, although most of the rules are quite OK. In any case, developing a RS book that cannot even be used at tournements...
I'd have preferred to see perhaps an all-new Level 3 Tech Readout, detailing some of the hot new tech in the works from both the Houses and Clans.
CBT fiction appears to be back on-line, though FanPro appears to have realised how deeply unpopular the DA setting is with most CBT fans and are going to be doing some pretty heavily "re-tool" stuff. The new trilogy is supposed to be about the Exodus and formation of the Clans, which should be pretty good.
All information herein was taken from the latest BattleChat over at the CBT.com site.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/18/04 06:24 AM
24.27.227.73
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The Record Sheets are out; I own them. They were released in 2002, IIRC.
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It is the releases that are responsible for making the universe colorful and I haven't seen enough, nor enough interesting ones of these imo, to turn it into a true CBT setting yet (again imo).
As you like. There is currently a larger body of information available about the MWDA setting and its worlds, online and free, than CBT had from its debut in 1984 to the release of the first of the House Sourcebooks in 1986. There are about a hundred worlds described in detail, both in terms of terrain and history, for the MWDA, plus descriptions of House histories before and after the Jihad.
http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/comstar/
The interactive map gives you more detail on planets than have appeared in any House Sourcebook. The "Touring the Stars" section (especially in the Comstar archives) gives you a wealth of information appropriate for any era. Not up to House Sourcebook density, but it's also free and lets you know about the current state of House in the 3130s:
Touring the Stars
When I started playing CBT in 1986, all I had was the sidebar descriptions of the Houses found in the 2nd edition BT sourcebook, and the game was still fun. ("I wanna play Steiner!" "You want to play Steiner just because they have the big mechs!" "Yeah, so?") Anyone starting off in the MWDA setting has more info available online to them than what shows up in boxed sets (or at least ye olde boxed sets I bought).
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Personally I have yet to, and don't plan to, purchase any products for MWDA "clicky tech" game. I have too much invested in CBT and from what I have read about gameplay, I am not intrested in the game.
So don't buy Clicktech. I haven't. If I play in MWDA, it's going to be with CBT rules.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/18/04 06:30 AM)
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Karagin
01/18/04 12:05 PM
213.187.148.138
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Big Battles using MWDA rules and miniatures...not something that is very appealing to most of the CBT players...
Really the days of mechs being handed over to faimly are gone...could you show me in any of the OFFICAL CBT books where this is stated please.
The lack of giving the reason as to WHY they reduced the troops is telling and important part to the whole MWDA background just as the WMDs usage by the WOB.
Again Level 3 is not in full use by every one, thus most won't use them and thus the point is lost. And once again as I notice you failed to comment on as does the others who defend MWDA, the game is NOT compatable with Battletech as where all of the other box games, like Aerotech or Battletroops or Solaris etc...
BT wasn't making a profit...funny they still had it (FASA) and it was doing better then say Earthdawn or Renegade Legion...and correct me if I am wrong but BT was doing a hell of a lot better then VOR was or did.
FASA stopped making a profit when it made silly decession dealing with the MW Computer games and royalites as well as running more then their normal three main games. They also had the lawsuit with HG over the original artwork of the basic mechs, but still managed to keep going. What they lost money and profit on was all of the late shipping dates or delays and then all of the need to revise everything because they didn't have a decent proofreader. And then there where other issues as well, but that not the point here. The point is that based on the last word from Randal there seems to be a lot out for BT and I haven't seen next to squat for MWDA...oh wait I did see something...MWDA the BATTLETECH collecttiabkle game...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/18/04 12:23 PM
68.200.106.169
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Quote:
Big Battles using MWDA rules and miniatures...not something that is very appealing to most of the CBT players
That's just a lie. You can use CBT OR MWDA rules to play out those battles. There are no rules in the MWDA setting that says, "If you do not use Clicktech, you'll be beaten by the game police."
There's even official CBT support for gaming the MWDA era, published record sheets.
Making unsupported statements like, "You have to use Clicktech rules for those battles" is just uncool. If you don't like MWDA, fine. But don't lie about it.
Edited by Cray (01/18/04 12:37 PM)
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Karagin
01/18/04 12:57 PM
213.187.148.138
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Quote:
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Big Battles using MWDA rules and miniatures...not something that is very appealing to most of the CBT players
That's just a lie. You can use CBT OR MWDA rules to play out those battles. There are no rules in the MWDA setting that says, "If you do not use Clicktech, you'll be beaten by the game police."
There's even official CBT support for gaming the MWDA era, published record sheets.
Making unsupported statements like, "You have to use Clicktech rules for those battles" is just uncool. If you don't like MWDA, fine. But don't lie about it.
Not lying about anything...point out the facts here...I haven't seen one thing that let's you play a MWDA battle using CBT rules or mechs...everything MWDA deals with revolves around the MWDA mechs...no lies there. Have they release a book giving us the whole convential battles between WOB and the IS/Clans? Nope.
And when said book comes out it will be the point that ties the two games together and thus CBT will be on the back buner at that point. So the point about MWDA being playable with only MWDA stuff is still truthful.
ANd again I note that you fail to talk about the point of MWDA being 100% compatiable with BT...you say there is a record sheet book out and that is it...funny thing there, a lot of the mechs in that book are level 3 thus not usable for 80% of the folks playing BT. Yet you don't even try to comment on the part about how MWDA is NOT BT and thus a different game and not something that has been 100% accepted by the whole BT community.
And you already know my stance on MWDA. SO there are no lies here. Show me and everyone else where we can get the scenarios to play the MWDA battles via CBT and I will add that to list of things done for both games jointly.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/04 01:05 PM
213.187.148.138
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All of that is nice...but given that the Internet as we know it wasn't out in 84 or 86 so you really can't compare the two timelines as you did.
For some one who states he won't buy MWDA you are really defending it well...and given that FanPro is putting a lot of CBT stuff that is filling in the blanks and redoing the house books tells me that MWDA is not selling well and thus the fans have spoken again and WK is either reversing it's self and allowing FP to do things like the older stuff or they have taken the hint...Granted I am a tad behind on events being in Iraq...but I am not out of the loop fully.
So which is it? Is FP getting some freedom to do things or is MWDA not selling as well as WK wants and hoped now?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/18/04 01:12 PM
213.187.148.138
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Actually the book is out...Cray is right...they have L3 mechs and lots of the other mechs including the misnamed Clan mechs... 75 ton Storm Crow and the 55 ton Mad Cats...but hey those aren't errors...yeah okay...
Good to see that some one at CBT and FP did listen to the fans and seen that we don't all want MWDA stuff and have gotten the chance to do some of the older stuff. I for one and looking forward to that will support those products.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/18/04 01:33 PM
68.200.106.169
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Not lying about anything...point out the facts here...I haven't seen one thing that let's you play a MWDA battle using CBT rules or mechs...
See: Record Sheets: MWDA. CBT has already supported gaming in the MWDA setting. If you have chosen not to buy those Record Sheets, fine. But do not run around saying, "You can't play MWDA without buying Clicktech." That is wrong. CBT supports and provides rules for playing in MWDA. If you choose to ignore them, that is your issue, not a basis for claiming "MWDA can only be played with Clicktech."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
01/18/04 01:40 PM
68.200.106.169
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For some one who states he won't buy MWDA you are really defending it well...
Oh, no. You've confused the issues.
I said I would not buy Clicktech minis. I will buy MWDA, but I will buy CBT's MWDA, not the Clicktech version.
Also, half the reason I'm replying is because you're mis-representing MWDA. I do not like the unfairness of your statements. For example, the blatantly wrong claim that you MUST have clicktech to play the Jihad and MWDA is just wrong. Also, the whole point about the availability of the internet when BT was released - irrelevant. People were able to play CBT without a great deal of information. You do not need in-depth background to play. There's more than enough there to play CBT:MWDA. And it's FREE.
If you started representing MWDA fairly, I wouldn't be complaining.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Ignorant_Savage
01/18/04 04:08 PM
24.197.176.136
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I hath seen the future, and ye, verily, it doth suck mightly.
Anyway, I do have a few more questions on this thread for you guys, before we're done beating the proverbial dead horse:
1) What happened to the Clans?
I read all the threads in the post, and (even though I 'quickly scanned' through a few) I don't think i saw a single mention of the Clans. Why didn't they come and gobble up the IS?
2) Where was ComStar? Another missing player. In case the folks who put this BS mish-mosh project together didn't notice, ComStar is devoted to protecting the ENTIRE Inner Sphere, and they have a HUGE army, at least on par with some of the smaller states. What did they do during this whole deal? Sit of the fence and hold thier.... socks?
3) The Periphery, what's up with them then? Yeah, if this new Age of War didn't spill into the periphery, this so called 'jihad' would leave them in a better position after its conclusion. I can at least see the Taurians make an attempt to take back some of their border worlds, the Pleadies Cluster, etc. Although I do recall some hints towards WoB macinations in this area in the FM: Periphery, I don't think that I heard specific mention of peripher action in any of the threads.
4) Interconnected-ness? God I hope not. Can anyone cite specific examples where CBT is bering steered in this wierd direction?
and last, but not least....
5) How does this suck so bad? Are you sure that the same people that were on the orignal Battletech game are actually working on this one? It sounds like their trying to turn BT into an anime series. (Don't get me wrong, I like anime.) This is just, in my opinion, an AWFUL direction to go with the story line. Wow. Are you sure they didn't hire a team of monkeys to come up with this? Seriously, it had the plot depth of a coffee table book.
Alright, so that last one was more of a comment than a question. But seriuosly folks, thanks to everyone for all the comments and information, now I know NOT to play this.
- Savage
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Ignorant_Savage
01/18/04 04:10 PM
24.197.176.136
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Oh, I almost forgot:
Frankly, the idea of the WoB (almost) taking over the Inner Sphere is preposterous. The taking of Terra was masterfull, but in the current CBT Timeline, how long can they really hope to hold it? With the Clan threat neutralized... well.. lessened, ComStar is going to get their s&%t together soon and kick some tail. Then, they WoB is left out in the cold.
Seriously, who can they really count on too support them? Thomas Marik? Right... he's having second thoughts after the Gibson incident. The Marian Hegnemony? Don't make me laugh.
- Savage
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Cray
01/18/04 06:11 PM
68.200.106.169
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Quote:
Frankly, the idea of the WoB (almost) taking over the Inner Sphere is preposterous. The taking of Terra was masterfull, but in the current CBT Timeline, how long can they really hope to hold it? With the Clan threat neutralized... well.. lessened, ComStar is going to get their s&%t together soon and kick some tail. Then, they WoB is left out in the cold.
Comstar has no industrial base, no population backing it, and only subsists on its "telephone" (HPG) monopolies.
WoB has ~6 billion tax payers on Terra and collected a fraction of the FWL's tax income for several years, another trillion tax payers funneling money into WoB.
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Seriously, who can they really count on too support them? Thomas Marik? Right... he's having second thoughts after the Gibson incident. The Marian Hegnemony? Don't make me laugh.
The Marian Hegemony blew them off, too. However, you misunderstand how WoB works. I recommend reading the Periphery section of "Touring the Stars" for examples.
WoB does not have a bunch of people standing up shouting "We're for the Word of Blake!"
WoB has convinced a bunch of people to fight their neighbors. Not for WoB, but for themselves. The Isle of Skye could be convinced to fight the Lyrans. The Tamar Pact, ripped apart by the Clans and "ignored" by the Steiners could be convinced to fight the Lyrans for independence. The Duchy of Andurien, so long oppressed by the FWL, could be convinced to fight the FWL. The St. Ives Commonality and Tikonov Commonality need little excuse to rise up against the Capellans. The Taurians thought the Federated Suns was attacking them, and counter-attacked with great (Taurian) viciousness.
WoB just whispered in their ear, gave them some guns, and encouraged them to take the wonderful opportunity to rebel.
WoB never came close to taking over the Inner Sphere. It did, however, spread terror and unrest throughout the Inner Sphere.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/18/04 06:37 PM)
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Cray
01/18/04 06:29 PM
68.200.106.169
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Quote:
1) What happened to the Clans?
I read all the threads in the post, and (even though I 'quickly scanned' through a few) I don't think i saw a single mention of the Clans. Why didn't they come and gobble up the IS?
1) Because they're outnumbered 5000:1. The Clan homeworlds have a population of 1.2 billion. The Inner Sphere has a population of 5 trillion.
2) Because the Clans had a civil war of their own. The Clans in the Inner Sphere fought hard against the Jihad; the rest of them fought amongst themselves, and then isolated the Homeworlds from outside contact.
Quote:
2) Where was ComStar? Another missing player.
They were not missing. They were present throughout the Jihad. The Comguards fought hard against WoB.
Do not make the mistake of "I have not personally read about faction X" with "Faction X was not present during the Jihad."
Please read "touring the stars" on INN. Comstar was present in the Jihad and, despite its near-annihilation, fought to the bloody end. It survived. WoB did not.
Comstar Story 1
Comstar Story 2
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) The Periphery, what's up with them then? Yeah, if this new Age of War didn't spill into the periphery, this so called 'jihad' would leave them in a better position after its conclusion. I can at least see the Taurians make an attempt to take back some of their border worlds, the Pleadies Cluster, etc. Although I do recall some hints towards WoB macinations in this area in the FM: Periphery, I don't think that I heard specific mention of peripher action in any of the threads.
Read Touring the Stars. WoB dropped a Dino-Killer asteroid on Taurus, and blamed it on Davion. The anti-Davion paranoid Taurians bought the ploy hook, line, and sinker. The WoB "advisors" helped the Taurians come to that conclusion.
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During that terrible war, the Word of Blake, taking advantage of Shraplen's paranoia of House Davion and his misplaced trust in their "advisors" [WoB] enacted a terrible plan. Using their Erinyes system, the Blakist assault consisted solely of dropping several of the smaller asteroids near Taurus upon the planet itself, leaving just enough evidence behind to incriminate the Federated Suns. The horrendous attack, though seen a few more times during the Jihad, all but decapitated the Taurian leadership, leaving the rest of the Concordat convinced that the Davions had launched the strike.
THAT is the kind of thing WoB did to start the Jihad. It played the existing factions against each other. It did not personally conquer - it did not have the manpower to do so. Instead, it instigated wars around the Inner Sphere.
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Interconnected-ness? God I hope not. Can anyone cite specific examples where CBT is bering steered in this wierd direction?
What do you mean, Interconnectedness? In the 3067-era and MWDA-era, all the factions of BT continue to fight against each other. The interconnection that began in 3030 (with the FS-LC union) ended in the FedCom Civil War, before the Jihad.
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5) How does this suck so bad? Are you sure that the same people that were on the orignal Battletech game are actually working on this one?
Yes. The owners of Wizkids are the original writers of BT. The goal was to end the big armies nonsense of the 3050s era and go back to the individuals-matter setting of the 3025.
You're making the mistaking many anti-MWDA folks make, and interpreting inadequate evidence incorrectly. Stop and get the full story. All of your questions are addressed in MWDA; do not let them be strictly rhetorical, but listen to the answers.
** Comstar was present in the Jihad; they fought against WoB.
** The Clans were present in the Jihad; those who did not fight WoB fought amongst themselves.
** The Periphery was present in the Jihad; it was tricked into causing chaos like so many other players manipulated by WoB.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/18/04 06:34 PM)
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Nightward
01/18/04 06:53 PM
202.138.41.229
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Quit whining. Both of you.
If you are going to have a debate, do so properly, instead of degenerating into personal attacks like the one above.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/18/04 06:55 PM
68.200.106.169
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Fair 'nuff.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Ignorant_Savage
01/19/04 06:39 AM
24.197.176.136
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oh man, I remember Bob Richter. Do I remember that guy... (sigh). I had some epic arguments with him when I posted here under another name (back in the day). heh.
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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tgsofgc
01/19/04 02:47 PM
67.4.193.169
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hehe I get to be here for this one!
On a related note Cray and Karagin have sparred in the past like on Bob's Shadow Hawk replacement... that Kar insisted was a fire support 'mech, but I am not bringing up that old arguement. 
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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tgsofgc
01/19/04 03:41 PM
67.4.193.169
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Ok because I am a meglomaniac and love to get my nose right in the middle of everything this is my attempt to tread the middle ground and come up with a post all sides can live with.
Part 1 - Storyline
The Dark Ages centers around the Word of Blake splinter group coercing most of the inner sphere into wars that allows them to centralize their power around Terra. Eventually the Word of Blake is defeated after many heinous war crimes, including brainwashing and use of nuclear weapons. Out of this carnage a new faction (the realm of the sphere) arises that is much like a tarran hegemony. Also things return to a more limited environment, as per 3025, though technology remains quite advanced (in fact advances).
Part 2 - The Setting
As a setting the Dark Ages takes place in 3132 and is geared more towards smaller battles (individuals), though larger wars still take place. Also many of the official 'mechs yet produced make use of various peices of Level 3 tech from Maxtech, like Light Ferro Fibrous armor. One of the other major developments is the move of 'mechs towards military ownership and away from them being a sort of family heirloom.
Part 3 - The Game
MWDA or Mechwarrior: Dark Ages is the game Wizkids produced with the battletech liscence. It is a "clickytech" game aimed at younger audiences that plays like Mageknight. The game is made by at least one of the original creators of battletech (who owns Wizkids, and created Mage Knight). The game has only met with limited success todate, unlike mage knight, as it has attracted few of the continuing hardcore battletech fans. This compounded with unpopular product developement choices (it is a collectable miniature game) has lead to a recent reorganizing of the game's development team and strategies.
Benefits:
Part 1 - the Setting
It thrusts battletech into a new succession wars style era with out sending technology backwards, degrading battlemechs, or unnecessarily eliminating previous factions players might enjoy (though many factions have major changes, of the variety that comes in 80 years). The Setting also allows a fresh new starting point for new players to jump into the game.
Part 2 - The Storyline
The Dark Ages resolves many of the beginnings started in the later storylines, such as those in TRO: 3067. As Fanpro releases new materials to fill in the gap this will become more consistant. (this can be approached in the same manner as the Clan Invasion where many materials about the clans origins and evolution took a long time to be released, though the invasion happened with some foreshadowing).
Problems
Part 1 - The Storyline
Many players of CBT have a strong dislike of the Word of Blake, the use of Nukes in Battletech, and change. Namely many players associate Battletech with the lore they have come to love, including many major characters that have been developed through the fiction. As such this "jump forward" where many of these things change (in ways players never wanted to see happen) has been resisted.
Another large strike against the storyline is the fact that the fiction as seen so far has been fairly lack luster in comparision to the older novels (this means a large amount to many players).
Part 2 - The Setting
Many players don't like to use Level 3 technology, as such the Record sheets have been the object of scorn. This may be solved if and when we see TROs for the period that may cause some of the technology to become Level 2.
Many players, especially the very old school, fell in love with family owned 'mechs and medieval lineage aspects of Battletech.
Many late players, or those well adjusted, have become use to large battles with many units, and see the new setting as a means to stop this kind of gameplay.
Part 3 - The Game
Many, many CBT dislike the "clickytech" game and this has shaped their views of the setting. Complaints about the clickytech game include "dumbing it down", incompatiability between old CBT minitures and the MWDA minis, and the collectiability of the game. Problems were only compounded in early expansions of MWDA that featured relatively few 'mechs and utility 'mechs converted into battlemechs. Both of these offend the sensabilities of CBT players and have lead to claims like "there are no mechs left."
Part 4 - Support
Currently there is little support for the genera in CBT. Released so far is a set of RS for the period. Though many of these are level 3. While a large amount of fluff/lore is available online, such as the Comstar Inn, many players will wait to pass final judgement for a real supplement material (such as field manuals, TROs, or scenario books).
The Future
MWDA hasn't had as good a sales as hoped, though they eclipse CBTs, as such WK has been enacting changes to the developement. Similarly many CBT players actively appose the setting, whether soured from MWDA or a dislike of fiction, this (some theorize) has driven Fanpro to publish more materials for the classical period (see the upcoming history book). So if you are intressted in it is as a CBT setting it might be awhile before you can reach a final judgement (with more published materials), unless you already have.
Hope that fairly sums up the pros/cons, etc.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Cray
01/19/04 04:09 PM
147.160.1.5
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I'd say that's a fairly impartial summary of what the setting is and the strikes against MWDA. However, you didn't quite summarize the positive benefits that FASA was hoping to achieve with MWDA (like what grievances against the current 3067-era setting they were trying to address, and not everyone is happy with how CBT turned out).
But thanks for summing that all up; I noticed it took you a while, and I appreciate that. (I admit to lurking on the "Who's on line" page waiting to pounce on your post...and waiting...and waiting... )
I'll make a stab at the other side of the coin, without putting in as much effort as you did.
MWDA stems from FASA's interest in addressing certain complaints about the post-3025 era. You touched on several of them.
For example, Old School 3025-era players (and you still find them on the forums; I certainly have nostalgia for the era) did not like the radical changes to BT starting anywhere from the Fourth Succession War to the War of 3039 (<-- I detest the outcome; it was pure cheese) to the Clan invasion (<-- a bungled handling of the return of Kerensky if there was one). Some of them disliked the loss of family mechs in favor of large, national militaries. Some of them disliked the rise of advanced technology; double strength heat sinks alone completely altered the game. Some of them disliked the radical alterations to the political situations. Some disliked all that and more.
Newer players were annoyed at changes ranging from the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars (personally, I LOVED Operation Bulldog and regretted not seeing it repeated, but some people had whole galaxies of Smoke Jag minis and were otherwise pro-Clan supporters), to the FedCom Civil War, and the many other rapid changes between 3050 and 3067.
The solution was obvious: start anew in a setting with few ties to the old one. None of the old, irritating characters would stay around. All the factions would have a fresh start. All the plot lines would start anew. It would be a return to the Old Days, but without killing the factions or technology people had grown used to. So, we got the Jihad (wiping the slate clean) and the MWDA. The Clicktech was a last minute introduction, owing to the new ownership of BT.
MWDA...
1) Reduced military sizes to the old, 3025-era levels, where small groups of mechs defended whole planets, and conquered whole planets.
2) Individual ownership of mechs. While the RotS notionally abolished this concept (except in the hands of nobles), the MWDA (esp. Clicktech) is strongly linking mechwarriors to specific mechs.
Warfare is once again a matter of personalities and cobbled-together mechs scrambling for resources and spare parts.
Also, there's a reason for the limited CBT support in MWDA. The "game plan" is for CBT to explore how the MWDA came about, starting with the Jihad and moving forward. There's about 80 years of history for CBT to explore before it gets to the MWDA setting, and just jumping there would commit the same error that CBT did in 20-Year Update. It's only now, more than a decade after the release of the 20-Year Update, that we might get to see what happened during that period in any depth. That big jump has always irked a lot of the writers, apparently. So while Clicktech does the grunt work of covering the MWDA, CBT gets to explore how the MWDA setting came about - it isn't simply going to skip forward 80 years.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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tgsofgc
01/19/04 08:59 PM
67.4.199.141
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Quote:
But thanks for summing that all up; I noticed it took you a while, and I appreciate that. (I admit to lurking on the "Who's on line" page waiting to pounce on your post...and waiting...and waiting... )
sorry man I took a rest break in the middle to go get me some supper, glad it pretty much passed muster for at least half... we will have to see what Karagin has to say.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Ignorant_Savage
01/22/04 05:06 AM
24.197.176.136
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Quote:
Comstar has no industrial base, no population backing it
Aparently, you've never heard of Free Rasalhauge, or Tukayyid for that matter. As far as the econimic issue works, I would assume that ComStar would make a helluva lot more money than the Wobblies. Taxpayers or no, ComStar gets paid a fee for every single HPG transmission in their area of inluence, and last time I checked, that was the vast majority of the Inner Sphere and beyond. Any way you slice it, that's alot of dimp.
In short: If ComStar ain't got no money, than I'm a monkey's bare-arsed uncle.
Plus, their army, last time I checked (FM: ComStar) was about (this is a guess without looking) 15 times larger than the WoB.
Also, you can play people off as much as you want against each other, but that don't mean that they're gonna wrastle. Skye, no matter how much they want 'Free Skye' or whatever, is going to stand by the LC (or LA in this case) when the going gets rough. After all, they are Lyrans through and through.
Same with the Taurians. There are still some checks in balances set against the extremism of the current protector. Plus add to that the fact that the former protector still has an offsrping that can claim to be his heir floating around somehere.
The list goes on....
I guess I just have a hard time giving the WoB as much legitmacy as the people who put "Dark Age" together do. When it all comes down to it, they're a recationary group of fanatics with more splinter groups than the Isrealli parliment. They do not have the central leadership, drive, or focus to hold onto Terra much longer, much less organize a "jihad" against the entirety of the Inner Sphere and the periphery.
Then again, they don't pay me the big bucks to make these decisions, do they?
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Ignorant_Savage
01/22/04 05:26 AM
24.197.176.136
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once again, thanks to everyone for all the info. i'm pretty sure that i'm not intrested in playing MWDA. I've had a look at some of the source material for it, and i think that i'm just going to stick with CBT.
- Savage
"Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey."
- Benjamin Franklin
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Cray
01/22/04 06:03 AM
68.200.106.169
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Quote:
Aparently, you've never heard of Free Rasalhauge, or Tukayyid for that matter.
Yeah, I have, and here's a couple of points about them:
Comstar does not own/rule/tax the Free Rasalhague Republic. It has troops stationed there, probably provides postal services, and definitely provides HPG services. If Comstar gets anything military goods out of the FRR, Comstar is only getting what it pays for.
In comparison, WoB collects taxes off 6 billion Terrans (via its Bureau of Terran Affairs, see the Comstar SB) and can run Terran industries as government-owned operations.
Tukayyid is a little-developed agrarian world. It was selected for the Big Showdown because it had so little to loose in large-scale warfare. For military production, it's about as useful as a patch of Kansas prairie, cowflop and all. In the mean time, WoB is siphoning off a non-trivial fraction of the FWL's GDP.
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In short: If ComStar ain't got no money, than I'm a monkey's bare-arsed uncle.
Comstar's got money, and it's got money that would make a merc unit pale with envy. However, it only has a fraction of what WoB has.
Quote:
Also, you can play people off as much as you want against each other, but that don't mean that they're gonna wrastle. Skye, no matter how much they want 'Free Skye' or whatever, is going to stand by the LC (or LA in this case) when the going gets rough. After all, they are Lyrans through and through.
1) The rebellions ARE what make the "going get tough."
2) Skye did not stand by the Lyrans when it rebelled in the mid-3030s and pushed Hanse's War of 3034 back to the War of 3039. Troops had to be sent into to quell the rebellion. Since then, Skye feels ignored and overlooked by the Lyrans while the Clans and Kuritans prey on them. If Skye rebels, then it has good reason in its silly little head to do so.
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Same with the Taurians. There are still some checks in balances set against the extremism of the current protector.
They're failing. Read the last 9 (real) years worth of products about the Taurians, starting with TR:3058 (published 1995), when a coup attempt against the (previous) unstable Protector failed and a civil war almost broke out among the Taurians. The Taurians then had a decent Protector for a few years, but he was assassinated, conveniently clearing the road block for the Taurians to ally with the Capellans (which the dead Protector opposed). The Taurians then wasted a lot of their military strength in St. Ives, mostly because the then and current paranoid anti-Davion Protector figured the assassination of his predecessor was a Davion plot. That Protector will be the downfall of the Concordat, but it is by no means the only reason for the Taurian schism. Over the past ~decade of real time, a lot of problems have been creeping in the Concordat - economic (weak), military (spent), social (anti-Davion paranoia), and political (unfit leadership and the inability to oust him).
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The list goes on....
Most of which can be explained, particularly with the new insights provided by Touring the Stars. List them if you like, or go back over the previous points I've explained. I'll be happy to offer more detail.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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