Improve a mech but with some limits...

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Karagin
05/04/12 02:48 PM
178.76.140.186

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Okay lets see what you guys can come up with for improving the 3050 base line Javelin JVN-10P mech. You can revamp it as much as you feel needed or less, but the cost can not go over 4 million Cbills. All Inner Sphere tech of the 3050 era is allowed.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.


Edited by Karagin (05/05/12 04:09 AM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/04/12 05:56 PM
174.148.115.119

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Technology Base: - Inner Sphere - Level 1
Equipment Mass 30
Internal Structure: 3.0
Engine: 180 7
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 13
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 96 standard 6

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 7 15
Center Torso(rear) 4
R/L Torso 7 12
R/L Torso(rear) 2
R/L Arm 5 8
R/L Leg 7 12

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
ML CT 1 1
HS CT 1 1
LT JJ 1 1
RT JJ 3 3
ML LA 3 3
ML RA 1 1
2 HS 2 2
2 HS 2 2

Cost C Bills 2,018,380

I had some trouble with the budget but I came up with a viable mech

It might not have the reach of other mechs but it can jump a good distance. I wanted to up the speed to 7-11 but I could not have jump jets then. I also wanted to have 4 medium lasers but again the jump jets where creating a problem.

If I removed the Jump jets the mech would be

Technology Base: - Inner Sphere - Level 1
Equipment Mass 30
Internal Structure: 3.0
Engine: 210 9
Walking MP: 7
Running MP: 11
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 12
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 96 standard 6

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 7 15
Center Torso(rear) 4
R/L Torso 7 12
R/L Torso(rear) 2
R/L Arm 5 8
R/L Leg 7 12

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
ML LT 1 1
ML RT 1 1
ML LA 1 1
ML LA 1 1
2 HS LL 2 2
2 HS RL 2 2

Cost C-Bills 1,980,940

Both mechs could build up to two heat each turn where they use their most heat creating movement. The jump mech would drop four heat if it ran instead of jumping.

Both mechs are more maneuverable than the original Javelin JVN-10P at the cost of potential damage. But my mechs don't have the problem of limited ammo.

I was also able to increase the amount of armor protection by 50% by removing the two SRM-6s for the medium lasers.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!


Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (05/04/12 06:02 PM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/04/12 06:17 PM
174.148.115.119

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I am not sure that you can go over 4,000,000 C-Bills with a 30 ton mech with pre 3050 tech.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
05/05/12 04:07 AM
178.76.140.186

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Impressive machines. I played around with similar ideas as you did and yes the trade offs are hard on this kind of limited budget and then vs need and what it can do.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
05/05/12 04:08 AM
178.76.140.186

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Pre-3050? Sorry if I didn't make it clear, you could use the 3050 stuff just not beyond that.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear. I will go and edit the original post to reflect that. Still your two variants are very nice.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
NeverSayNever
05/05/12 08:30 AM
78.51.135.80

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One of the downgraded variants with lvl 1 (3025 era) tech remind me of the Javelin-F (4x Medium Laser, 6/9/6 movement) variant.


RetroTech stylish design contest?


Or Munchkin stylish (= e.g. cram as many MLs into a design as possible = rather boring (at least to me) approach) lvl 1 design contest for the 3025 era?




Have a nice day / night.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/05/12 08:31 AM
173.131.65.51

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Oh since advanced equipment is allowed I will do some upgrades.

Technology Base: - Inner Sphere 3050
Equipment Mass 30
Internal Structure: ES 1.5
Engine: 180 7
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Double Heat Sinks: 10
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 104 standard 6.5

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso(rear) 4
R/L Torso 7 12
R/L Torso(rear) 2
R/L Arm 5 10
R/L Leg 7 14

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
2 ML LT 2 2
2 DHS LT 6 0
2 ML RT 2 2
DHS RT 3 1
LT JJ 3 3
RT JJ 3 3
ML LA 1 1
ML RA 1 1


Cost C Bills 2,272,660

This mech has been upgraded with double heat sinks and Endo steel. I was able to drop two of the heat sinks and add three more medium lasers and another half ton of armor. The mech still can build up two heat points each round.

I really tried to use a EL engine but with the four million limit I just could not do it with out really dropping the mechs speed. If I had another half million I could have put in a EL engine and with another million I could have put in the EL engine that I really wanted.

With the possible long range weapons that would be available for 3050 era light mechs this mech could find its self in a little trouble if it could not close the range where the medium lasers could at lease reach the other mech.

Where this mech would exile would be as a raider or to harass an enemies flanks with hit and run tactics. It is just to light to go head to head with much of anything.

Technology Base: - Inner Sphere 3050
Equipment Mass 30
Internal Structure: ES 1.5
Engine: 180 7
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Double Heat Sinks: 10
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 104 standard 6.5

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso(rear) 4
R/L Torso 7 12
R/L Torso(rear) 2
R/L Arm 5 10
R/L Leg 7 14

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
ER LL CT 2 5
DHS LT 1 0
DHS RT 1 0
ML LA 1 1
ML RA 1 1

Cost C-Bills 2,316,860

This mech has a bigger problem with heat than the 6 medium laser mech but not by a great deal. By either not jumping or using the extended range large laser its heat will say below what the heat sinks can handle.

This mech would be used to harass an enemies flank with its extended range large laser trying to stay out of the affective range of any counter strike.

It could be quite dangerous its to powerful to ignore but to fast and maneuverable to nail down and destroy. If given enough time it can take down an Atlas by taking pot shots when it has the advantage and stating out of range of the Atlas' long range missiles when it does not have the advantage. If extreme range rules are used it can stay between 660 meters and 840 meters where there is very little chance of hitting but if you roll the dice enough times you will roll box cars from time to time.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
05/05/12 09:29 AM
178.76.140.186

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Nice upgrades. I could see both versions tag teaming for units as well as running around with the level one variants you posted before.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
05/05/12 09:30 AM
178.76.140.186

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Just something I was looking at, and wondering if an upgrade could be done or revamping without going to crazy and then went with the idea that limits would be in place from a cost stand point vs a hey this is cool let's use it stand point.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/05/12 10:24 AM
173.131.65.51

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Quote:

Or Munchkin stylish (= e.g. cram as many MLs into a design as possible = rather boring (at least to me) approach)




I see the medium laser as the most weight effective weapon in the game. Even with other more advanced weapons I like the old stand by medium laser.

The mistakes that where made where

To make ACs and missile systems to heavy and to create heat.

To make lasers to light does to much damage and not to create more heat.

Then when they came out with level two rules they doubled down on the heat mistake by creating the double heat sink.

I still think that the AC-2 should have had the range of 3-6-9 weighed 1 ton and had 100 shots per ton. Where the AC-20 had the range of 8-16-24 weighed 15 tons and had 3 shots pet ton. And having the AC-5 and AC-10 switch also. And none of the ACs creating any heat.

As for the missile systems cut there weight in half and the heat they created. I would give them a -2 to hit. Also change the way the number of missiles that hit are determine by the margin that the attack succeeded by and not by a random chart.
Think about it say you needed to hit with a 4+ and rolled a 12 then you roll on the missile chart and rolled say a 2. Then your opponent needed a 12+ and got his 12 then he rolled a 12 on the missile chart. Say you attacked him with a LRM-20 and he attacked you with a SRM-6. You got a good solid hit on him but he just barely hit you but your powerful LRM-20 only did 6 points of damage but his week attack did a massive 12 points to you.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
05/05/12 10:59 AM
178.76.140.186

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Your first variant is .5 tons shy of 30 or so HMPro says.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
05/05/12 11:02 AM
178.76.140.186

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Second one works out to 30 even tons. I am not sure why the first one is a half a ton shy of the weight. Unless you had another laser in mind for it. I count 6 MLs and entered 6 and still have the .5 tons left.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/05/12 11:13 AM
173.131.65.51

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Quote:

Your first variant is .5 tons shy of 30 or so HMPro says.




I only have two things that use half a ton and there are two of them. The last I recall .5 and .5 added up to one, but it has been over 25 years since I finished high school so maybe things have changed since then. =P
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
05/05/12 03:22 PM
178.76.140.186

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Right in the real world folks round...but in this game...reality is the sci-fi...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/06/12 09:55 AM
173.130.243.255

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Am I the only one that is going to post a mech?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Raplet
05/06/12 10:03 AM
68.150.148.233

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Gonna have a design up later today.
Prince_of_Darkness
05/06/12 12:23 PM
75.170.101.110

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I always liked the -10P Javelin; it;s the sort of slapdash 'mech you'd see in the crazed furor of the Clan invasion.

Here's my idea- it really only needs a D-class refit, meaning it requires a field bay and not a factory scale level of equipment. I see it as a need for more... "general" or "Average" light mechs, not the ambusher that the Javelin has been made out to be- the huge increase in armor kinda helps with that.

Javelin

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-D
Production Year: 3070
Cost: 2,513,640 C-Bills
Battle Value: 793

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 64.5 km/h
Maximum Speed: 96.75 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous w/ CASE
Armament:
1 SRM-6
2 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 51 points 3.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 180 7.00
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT, 2 LL, 2 RL 3.00
Heat Sinks: Single 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 HD, 1 LT, 1 RT
Gyro: Standard Gyro 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 98 5.50
Armor Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
CASE Locations: 1 RT 0.50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 7 10
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 5 9
L/R Leg 7 12

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SRM-6 RT 4 2 3.00
2 Medium Lasers LT 6 2 2.00
@SRM-6 (15) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 18

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 8
6j 2 2 0 0 1 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: SRCH, EEE, ES, SOA
Karagin
05/06/12 02:55 PM
217.5.180.117

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So you dropped the Streak and went with Ferro...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/06/12 03:02 PM
173.130.243.255

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I would have gone with the Endo Steel IS instead of the Ferro-Fibrous armor. You could have added another ton of ammo and brought up the armors tonnage to 6.

Of course that has to do with that I don't like Ferro-Fibrous armor all that much, since it could be really hard to find spare armor to repair damage the field during a campaign. I'm more liking Ferro-Fibrous armor with Clan units since the Clans us it heavily and travel with a great deal of spare Ferro-Fibrous armor.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Raplet
05/06/12 11:42 PM
68.150.148.233

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I designed this in The Drawing Board 2.0.10, and I don't think there is any way to drop in the data. (Copied and edited Prince of Darkness design)

Javelin JVN-11R

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Production Year: 3050
Cost: 3,955,640 C-Bills

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 180 XL Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 64.5 km/h
Maximum Speed: 96.75 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Unknown Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Large Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 51 points 3.00
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 180 3.50
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6 (Standard)
Jump Jet Locations: 3 LT, 3 RT 3.00
Heat Sinks: Double 10 0.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT
Gyro: Standard Gyro 2.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous AV - 99 5.50
Armor Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL, 6 LA, 4 RA

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 13
Center Torso (rear) 5
L/R Torso 7 10
L/R Torso (rear) 3
L/R Arm 5 10
L/R Leg 7 13

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Laser RT 8 2 5.00
Large Laser LT 8 2 5.00
Free Critical Slots: 8

Stuck with the standard IS, as I'm treating this as a MAJOR upgrade (No Javelin Factories in 3050). The 180 XL must have been liberated from a Hatchetman (Only source of 3050 IS XL engines I can find). And I think an XL engine is about the only way a 3050 IS 35 tonner can get to 4 million C-bills (Unless you put in a C3 computer)

I call it the "Dolly Parton Special". A Javelin is top heavy as it is, but I made it worse. Figure the Dual large would be a surprise for anybody expecting MLs or SRMs.
Karagin
05/07/12 02:40 AM
217.5.180.117

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Interesting that you went to the high end of the cost spectrum. It does indeed have a nice punch to it...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Raplet
05/07/12 07:06 AM
68.150.148.233

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I was just playing around, trying some different things, and noticed the twin large lasers just squeaked by.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/07/12 12:37 PM
108.102.213.101

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I did not think that the XL engine would make it. I did some very quick numbers and every time they looked like they would go over.

Im going to see if I can redo my mech to see if I can get it to work
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/07/12 01:30 PM
108.102.213.101

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Technology Base: - Inner Sphere 3050
Equipment Mass 30
Internal Structure: ES 1.5
Engine: XL 180 3.5
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9
Jumping MP: 6
Double Heat Sinks: 10
Gyro: 2
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: 104 standard 6.5

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso(rear) 4
R/L Torso 7 12
R/L Torso(rear) 2
R/L Arm 5 10
R/L Leg 7 14

Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
SL head 1 .5
ERLL CT 2 5
Engine LT 3 0
DHS LT 3 0
ML LT 1 1
JJ LT 1 .5
Engine RT 3 0
DHS RT 3 0
JJ RT 1 .5
2 ML LA 2 2
2 ML RA 2 2
JJ LL 2 1
JJ RL 2 1

1 Extended Range Large Laser
5 Medium Lasers
1 Small Laser

Cost C-Bills 3,901,885

With the changing out of the standard engine for the Extra Light engine of the same class I was able to up grade the weapons adding another three medium lasers and a small laser.

I dont really thing adding the extra three medium lasers is worth the extra 1.6 million C-Bills for a line mech. Now for a special operation mech like a lone back lines raider I an see the worth of the extra fire power.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/07/12 01:43 PM
108.102.213.101

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You can buy an locust that is armed with three medium lasers for what it would cost to add the EL engine and three extra medium lasers to that mech.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Raplet
05/08/12 04:44 AM
68.150.148.233

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Without a doubt, XL engines are the least cost effective component on a Mech. If I remember correctly, a 400 XL in a 100 ton mech is 16,000,000 C-bills all on its own. You can just about buy 2 AS7-Ds for that price.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/08/12 05:03 PM
174.148.45.110

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Quote:

Without a doubt, XL engines are the least cost effective component on a Mech. If I remember correctly, a 400 XL in a 100 ton mech is 16,000,000 C-bills all on its own. You can just about buy 2 AS7-Ds for that price.




it is 10,666,666 (20,000x400x100)/75 or 21,333,332 if you include the cost 100% multilayer of being in a 100 ton mech.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Raplet
05/08/12 07:47 PM
68.150.148.233

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OK. So the engine in a Berzeker costs MORE than 2 AS7-Ds.

While one has to include the cost of a trained mechwarrior, transport and maintenance, I think the XL engine still loses.

Double Heat Sinks on the other hand are a steal.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/09/12 01:04 AM
108.102.38.6

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That depends, You can have an EL engine in a light or medium mech that can increase the walking speed by 30kph from a pre 3050 design. Or increase the fire power of an assault mech by a really good margin.

There are two ways to look at EL engines.

The first is the person that is footing the bill for the mech. They will not like the EL because it cots four times as much as the standard engine.

The other is the mechwarrior that is in it that is trying to survive the current engagement hoping that he can bring to bear enough fire power to stop the enemy mech before that enemy mech can blow him away.

I created a 35 ton mech that cost 7.4 million C-Bills and I think that it is well worth the cost because the fire power that it can bring to bear and with its extreme speed that it can move. It compares to a pre 3050 mech that has the speed of a fast 20 ton mech and with the fire power of a medium to heavy mech.

As for my self I would never put a 400 engine into a 100 ton mech. I would drop the weight of the mech to 95 tons to have a heavy assault mech that moves 4-6. My favorite mech weight is the 75 with an EL engine because you can have a mech that moves 5-8-5 and that has some really good fire power.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Prince_of_Darkness
05/09/12 10:56 AM
75.170.101.110

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Donkey pretty much summed it up- personally, I think XL engines are a little too bashed upon, simply because the tech readouts (TRO 3050) who used them did not use them very well and hurt the designs more in the process.

A good baseline for XL use is to ask yourself "What do I get out of it"? For most 'mechs, switching to an XL engine of some form means you are either gaining large amounts of firepower, or you're gaining huge amounts of speed. The best 'mechs who use XL engines properly are the likes of the Spector, Thunderhawk, Grand Dragon, and the recent Osteon- of which I use as baselines.
Karagin
05/09/12 12:15 PM
217.5.180.117

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That is a good way to look at using the engine type.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Rotwang
05/09/12 05:11 PM
94.227.112.112

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Javelin JVN-10XT

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-E
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 2.976.740 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1.012

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 180 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97,2 km/h (129,6 km/h)
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 180 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
4 Medium Lasers
1 Small Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 51 points 1,50
Internal Locations: 1 HD, 1 CT, 3 LT, 3 RT, 3 LA, 3 RA
Engine: Fusion Engine 180 7,00
Walking MP: 6
Running MP: 9 (12)
Jumping MP: 6 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT, 2 LL, 2 RL 3,00
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0,00
Heat Sink Locations: 2 LT, 1 RT
Gyro: Standard 2,00
Cockpit: Standard 3,00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 104 6,50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 10 15
Center Torso (rear) 4
L/R Torso 7 10
L/R Torso (rear) 4
L/R Arm 5 10
L/R Leg 7 14

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers RT 6 2 2,00
MASC RT - 2 2,00
2 Medium Lasers LT 6 2 2,00
Small Pulse Laser CT 2 1 1,00
Free Critical Slots: 11

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 3 Points: 10
8/6j 3 2 0 0 1 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: ENE, SRCH, ES, SOA

Here is my take on it. It's the Fire Javelin with MASC and an extra pulse laser. It's a hit and run guerrilla fighter/raider.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/09/12 07:39 PM
99.202.157.225

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PoD are you feeling alright! You just complemented me...

=P
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
NeverSayNever
05/25/12 03:02 PM
92.228.143.197

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Okay lets see what you guys can come up with for improving the 3050 base line Javelin JVN-10P mech. You can revamp it as much as you feel needed or less, but the cost can not go over 4 million Cbills. All Inner Sphere tech of the 3050 era is allowed.





How about a RetroTech stylish 3025 downgrade approach?

Simply remove the SRM6 plus SRM6-ammo and remove the StreakSRM2 and ammo as well, then install three SRM2 launchers per side torso location and allocate one ton of SRM2 ammo per side torso.


fluff reasons for downgrade:

not enough SRM6 launchers/ammo and or Streak SRM2 launchers/ammo available (corresponding resources have been allocated to other projects / Mech designs with higher priority levels) but a huge surplus of outdated SRM2 launchers and ammo (including old fashioned inferno SRM2 rounds = best used for anti tank and or anti infantry (anti battle armor as well?)) in stock

demand for a light, highly mobile, low cost, multi purpose, Mech based weapons platform


Best of all: should the resource shortage get fixed anytime soon it would only take a simple field refit / upgrade to get a JVN-10N or -10P.


munchkin sidenotes: six launchers = six independent to-hit-rolls, plus inferno ammo is one of your best low tech friends if dealing with tanks, infantry - and or rebellious citizens (anti riot garrison duty mercenary contract)


So if you don't mind RetroTech stylish, low tech downgrades with a little bit of low tech munchkin and or roleplay flavour - feel free to enjoy the ride ...


Have a nice day / night.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/27/12 08:58 PM
173.96.187.29

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Quote:

munchkin sidenotes: six launchers = six independent to-hit-rolls, plus inferno ammo is one of your best low tech friends if rebellious citizens (anti riot garrison duty mercenary contract)




Now that is just out right wrong! There is a reason its ageist the rules of war.

I still think that inferno rules need to be totally redone because its WAY to one sided. A mech should be more prone to fire damage than a tank do to more exposed unarmored places do to joints and infinity would be scattering as soon as they see the flames descending on them. I mean really, as the rules are a 100,000 ton sea going battleship can be taken out with one shot from a 2 ton hovercraft that has a OS-SRM-2 inferno. And people came that as I see things I am a munchkin and they are totally OK with this and they are anything but a munchkin.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
scheinlen
05/28/12 08:04 AM
204.111.93.186

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The fire rules dont cover that a battle ship and there crew are trained in fire /damage control, compartmentalized, and designed for combat.fire surpression systems and bulkheads are a most if you have a Million or Billion dollar piece of equipment such as a battle ship or Battle Mech.

A tankers enemy if fire, as I spent Several years of my life in the U.S. Army, The fuel for the moderan tank is very combustable, ammo only takes so much heat before it exspodes, and rubber takes and melts. Track cleats, hoses, electronics, all melt...A tank is designed for planet side combat, not under water or in space.
A mech that is designed to fight under water, in space on a moon, and heat or cold planet side would need to have a need for insulation/ fire surpression systems and fire retardent that would make the space shuttle happy. It would have too for a Orbital drop pod in air borne operations.

The thing I dont see is a mech vs a tank in soft terrain. A tank spreads it's weight out and can float to a point because of the sealed hull (Swamp or marsh or even in light sand and mud)
A mech has all of its weight on its feet, displacment sucks... I give the mech with four feet the ok, but a 50 to 100 ton or more mech in soft ground. nada... I have had to march through soft soil, carring a pack and gear. that is why in the winter meany wars have boged down until spring comes.
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
05/28/12 05:28 PM
173.149.133.229

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OK if a ICE engine in a tank would destroy a tank then why would not the same be for a ICE mech?

There are tanks that have a fusion engines so they should not be affected since they don't carry fuel.

Mechs carry ammo just like a tank so why would not a inferno missile not destroy the mech?

So far I have yet heard a good reason that a inferno missile should out right destroy a tank and not a mech.

I still think that a inferno missile should not be a one shot one kill weapon ageist any vehicles no matter its mass.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
scheinlen
05/28/12 06:35 PM
204.111.123.23

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well for a drastic example; I would not want to be near a fuel truck or a ammo truck that got hit by a infernal round of any type. and for tanks and mechs there are several types of each. but the game only clusters them into a sigle type. I believe that seperation of the different types is "home grown" or house rules... it would be to much to brake them all down to singles for the Game Makers. As to the Infernal rounds and the damage done; well soome commin since needs to be introed at more then one place in the rules of BT or other games also.
A M1 A2 main battle tank and the Leopard both have fire supression systems... but a T-72 does not.. Same can be said about the modern version of the Case Sytems for the main gun ammo of these tanks.
For that matter were is the one shot one kill Hellfire and Tow II missles that out range most main guns of MBTs, fired from Helos and vtols today against tanks, the game must have a balance. so the designers are not perfect that is why rules get up dated and changed... dont like the rule, please write a "change" so all of us can enjoy it.

I will use it also.
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!


Edited by scheinlen (05/28/12 06:35 PM)
Karagin
05/28/12 08:58 PM
72.178.85.122

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Fire does kill vehicles in BT faster then it does mechs. Check the rules and ignore the home ruling or thinking that is being given.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
scheinlen
05/28/12 09:31 PM
204.111.104.60

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I see says the humbal student: Thanks for the wisdom... Now were is the enemy!
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
CrayModerator
05/29/12 05:19 PM
173.168.112.109

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The thing I dont see is a mech vs a tank in soft terrain. A tank spreads it's weight out and can float to a point because of the sealed hull (Swamp or marsh or even in light sand and mud)




The ground pressure of a stationary 'Mech is similar to a tank.

A 12m tall 'Mech (typical) with 2m x 2m feet (akin to the pod-like feet of Griffins or Shadowhawks) would have a total of 8 square meters (12,386 square inches) of ground contact area. For a 55-ton 'Mech (121,275 pounds), that's 9.79 pounds per square inch ground pressure.

The Abrams, meanwhile, peaks at 15.4psi for the M1A2.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m1-specs.htm

The trick wording I used above is "stationary." A running human - and presumably running 'Mech - hits the ground with about 3 times its weight on the landing foot. That's half the area and 3 times the force for 6 times the ground pressure: about 60psi, or 20psi when walking carefully.

So, potentially, the ground pressures can be comparable for slow-moving 'Mechs. A 'Mech pelting across a field is going to be pounding some mecha-sasquatch footprints into the ground and it will get into trouble on soft ground.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
scheinlen
05/29/12 07:04 PM
204.111.95.206

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Yep, about what I thought. Also I have seen tracks of armored vehicles leave trails hip deep at times... But normally if a Squadron or company spreads out some trails are not so bad. but in a fast crossing , dont bother trying to follow in a wheeled vehicle...

I could only imaginne the damage done by a 100 ton mech at a charge!
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
NeverSayNever
05/31/12 04:00 PM
78.50.198.135

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Quote:

Quote:

munchkin sidenotes: six launchers = six independent to-hit-rolls, plus inferno ammo is one of your best low tech friends if rebellious citizens (anti riot garrison duty mercenary contract)




Now that is just out right wrong! There is a reason its ageist the rules of war.

[...]






Quote:

There is a reason its ageist the rules of war.




If you've been thinking about something like the "Ares Conventions"

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ares_Conventions

as some kind of "rules of [civilized] war[fare]", well, IMVHO they're more like entirely optional fluff text / background story elements for roleplayers but not necesarily binding 'rules' for playing the BatteTech board game.


Unfortunately you compressed the original text / quote a little bit too much (IMVHO) and omitted a few points.

original text / quote from "NeverSaNever":
Quote:


[...]
munchkin sidenotes: six launchers = six independent to-hit-rolls, plus inferno ammo is one of your best low tech friends if dealing with tanks, infantry - and or rebellious citizens (anti riot garrison duty mercenary contract)
[...]






My sidenote was referring to munchkins in particular - and munchkins tend to go to extremes -, so it wasn't directed at the average BattleTech board game player.

IMVHO almost every munchkin would not hesitate to take full advantage of "inferno ammo" if dealing with valid military targets / units ("tanks, infantry") simply because "inferno ammo is one of your best low tech [= 3025, lvl 1 tech era] friends if dealing with tanks, infantry", in addition many munchkins would not hesitate to take full advantage of "inferno ammo" if dealing with valid para military targets / units ("rebellious citizens", sometimes also known as 'rebels', 'partisans', 'guerilleros' (spelling?), 'resistance' fighters) particularly if aforementioned "rebellious citizens" weren't picky regarding their choice of weapons - and or their use of para military tactics / strategies.

Basically the moment a citizen / civilian (= a non combatant, not a valid target) decides to pick up a military grade weapon, which would turn him / her into a para military threat, he / she would turn him- / herself into a combatant / valid para military target.

Unarmed citizen / civilian shouting, shaking his / her fists in protest = a non combatant, not a valid target.

Armed citizen, e.g. one carrying a weapon designed for war, like an assault rifle, a portable missile launcher, a satchel charge, or whatever = a combatant = a valid para military target.

Of course some munchkins might not hesitate to take full advantage of "inferno ammo" if dealing with unarmed citizens, probably simply because they could get away with it and would not care much about any roleplay related, fluff based penalties and or restrictions.

Please keep in mind that the "Ares Conventions" are basically nothing but pure fluff for roleplayers and if I recall correctly even some of the five great "Houses" in the fictional canon BattleTech history did not fight by the rules of the "Ares Conventions" all the time, pretty much the same would apply to the "Clans" (e.g. orbital bombardment of "Turtle Bay" on the planet "Edo").

Playing by the optional rules of 'civilized' warfare would only detract a hardcore munchkin from his / her ultimate goal: 'winning' - at all costs and or by any means necessary ...


By the way, if you take a closer look at real history you might notice that sometimes, you know, during wartime, even some of the more / most advanced and or 'civilized' nations / countries of their time allowed the military use of rather cruel and 'barbaric' [at least IMVHO] methods of (total) warfare:


"Greek fire" (Byzantine Empire):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire


"Napalm" (several nations / countries since World War II):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napalm

[Please don't miss the section about "International law" on the use of Napalm and the finer details / fine print, like some countries reserving themselves the option to selectively sign only specific protocols.]


[Basically many hardcore BattleTech munchkins c/would try a rather similar approach: selectively pick only specific parts / sub sets of a given BattleTech ruleset, probably only those which favor the munchkin's style of play, or game rules which restrict the other players' styles of play, you know, to help the munchkin 'win' the game, simply because that's what it's all about, at least to a hardcore BattleTech munchkin: 'winning' is the game, nothing else really matters ...]


With the BattleTech universe offering some kind of a fictional version of a 'history' of a potential future - and the tendency of history to keep repeating itself - one should not be too surprised if, for example, fictional "inferno ammo" gets (ab)used in an imaginary future in almost any way imaginable ...



Just some food for thought ...

Have a nice day / night.
scheinlen
05/31/12 07:59 PM
204.111.93.151

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Infernel ammo is a top choice for digging out infantry in ruble of bunker. Flame throwers are great as well, but a mech carring them also rune the risk of taking a hit on said ammo just like a soldier carring one on his back... has no buddies that want to be in his Blast area if he or she takes a hit in his equipment. Bullets vs flamethrower pack ... BAD MOJO..
It is not my job to judge my Enemies, that is there God's job. It is only my duty to arrange the meeting!
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