ATN082268
07/15/13 01:14 PM
69.129.18.69
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BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Sniper
Tech: Clan / 3072
Config: Hovercraft
Rules: Level 2, Custom design
Mass: 50 tons
Power Plant: 265 XL Fusion
Cruise Speed: 108.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 162.0 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Large Pulse Laser
1 Streak SRM 6
1 TAG
1 Anti-Missile System
1 ECM Suite
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Sniper
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 5.00
Engine: 265 XL Fusion 1 7.00
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 3.50
Cruise MP: 10
Flank MP: 15
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.50
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 5.00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.50
Armor Factor: 192 pts Ferro-Fibrous 1 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 52
Left / Right Sides: 5 40/40
Rear: 5 30
Turret: 5 30
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Pulse Laser Turret 10 1 6.00
1 Streak SRM 6 Turret 0 15 2 4.00
1 TAG Turret 0 1 1.00
1 Anti-Missile System Turret 0 24 2 1.50
1 ECM Suite Body 0 1 1.00
1 Targeting Computer 1 2.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 0 .00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 10 50.00
Items & Tons Left: 5 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 9,373,667 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,333
Cost per BV: 7,032.01
Weapon Value: 1,490 / 1,346 (Ratio = 1.12 / 1.01)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 20; MRDmg = 14; LRDmg = 7
BattleForce2: MP: 10, Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
Damage PB/M/L: 3/2/1, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 13
Specials: ecm, tag
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Karagin
07/15/13 02:39 PM
72.178.85.122
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Well at least it is not 100 tons or bigger and that might only because of the weight limits of the hover craft. Pricey and limited in weapons, while it is fast that speed could be a factor against it at times. Still it could be useful in some recon or fast advance units.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/15/13 05:04 PM
208.54.86.198
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That name has been used.
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/151566/an/0/page/10#151566
Why you would call that Sniper I dont know The LPL is not that long ranged of a weapon.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
07/15/13 07:59 PM
72.178.85.122
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The Clan Lg Pulse has a range comparable to the IS PPC and thus better then the IS Lg Pulse.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/15/13 08:19 PM
206.29.182.159
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Yea but a Clan Extended Range Large Laser with a targeting computer would weigh a ton less and have far greater range and only suffer one bonus for not being pulse technology.
I don't know why he has a targeting computer on his tank since none of the weapons that are mounted on it can benefit from it. He can add two more tons of armor onto his tank by removing that which he cant use anyways.
If he ditched some of the extra crap he could drop the weight by at least five tons if not more.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Cray
07/15/13 09:14 PM
184.88.162.114
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Quote:
Pricey and limited in weapons
Although, in fairness, it has the ultimate weapon of the BT universe: a Clan large pulse laser. You don't need other weapons when you've got that on a 10/15 platform. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/15/13 09:19 PM
206.29.182.159
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Type/Model: Sniper
Mass: 45 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 4.50
Engine: 215 Fusion 1 9.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 4.75
Cruise MP: 10
Flank MP: 15
Heat Sinks: 12 Single 0 2.00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.25
Crew: 4 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 4.50
Turret Equipment: 0 .40
Armor Factor: 184 pts Ferro-Fibrous 1 9.60
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 50
Left / Right Sides: 5 40/40
Rear: 5 24
Turret: 5 30
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 ER Large Laser Turret 12 1 4.00
1 Anti-Missile System front 0 24 2 1.50
1 ECM Suite Body 0 1 1.00
1 Targeting Computer 1 1.00
Cost 3,394,667 C-Bills
The first thing that had to go was that XL engine. That was just C-Bills down the toilet.
I dumped all of the extra crap that was not needed. That opened up enough weight for me to drop the tank 5 tons.
I ended up dropping the cost of the tank to almost a third of the original price with out defeating the mission profile for a sniper vehicle, never mind that kind of mission is a bit unClan like.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
07/15/13 09:49 PM
72.178.85.122
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He could I still think the only reason we see the 50 tons is he is a believer in the bigger is better thinking.
I am sure the same hover tank can be built for 40 tons.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/16/13 12:14 AM
206.29.182.159
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Not really. For the reason of how suspension factors work for constructing hover tanks. The same goes for VTALs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/16/13 12:35 AM
206.29.182.159
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Quote:
Quote:
Pricey and limited in weapons
Although, in fairness, it has the ultimate weapon of the BT universe: a Clan large pulse laser. You don't need other weapons when you've got that on a 10/15 platform.
I would say its a throw up between the Clan Large Pulse Laser, Clan Extended Range Large Laser with a Targeting Computer, and a Clan Extended Range Particle Projector Cannon with the Targeting Computer.
The LPL has that extra -1 to hit over the other two.
The ERLL has the grater range over the other two.
The ERPPC has the extra punch over the other two.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
07/16/13 06:12 AM
72.178.85.122
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It has the ultimate munchkin weapon in the BT universe.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ATN082268
07/16/13 06:42 AM
69.128.58.222
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<Yea but a Clan Extended Range Large Laser with a targeting computer would weigh a ton less and have far greater range and only suffer one bonus for not being pulse technology.>
O.K. Sir knows a lot. Clan Pulse lasers give you a bonus of -2 to hit and a targeting computer gives you another -1 bonus to hit for a total bonus of -3 to hit. A Clan ER Large Laser (-0 bonus to hit) tied into a targeting computer (-1 bonus to hit) gives you a total of -1 bonus to hit.
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Karagin
07/16/13 09:52 AM
72.178.85.122
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YOU CAN NOT USE THEM TOGETHER ANYMORE. The rules changed. So your argument is invalid.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KitK
07/16/13 02:22 PM
184.69.56.118
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Quote:
YOU CAN NOT USE THEM TOGETHER ANYMORE. The rules changed. So your argument is invalid.
Really? I though you just couldn't aim for a specific location with them, but the -2 -1 combo still worked. You might want to check that.
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KitK
07/16/13 02:33 PM
184.69.56.118
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Quote:
I would say its a throw up between the Clan Large Pulse Laser, Clan Extended Range Large Laser with a Targeting Computer, and a Clan Extended Range Particle Projector Cannon with the Targeting Computer.
The LPL has that extra -1 to hit over the other two.
The ERLL has the grater range over the other two.
The ERPPC has the extra punch over the other two.
Use these numbers (sans TC) to compare. They equalize for range and damage but not heat and weight over 20 firing turns.
cLPL 75.6
cERL 49.6
cERPPC 67.8
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Cray
07/16/13 06:34 PM
184.88.162.114
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Quote:
YOU CAN NOT USE THEM TOGETHER ANYMORE. The rules changed. So your argument is invalid.
You can use targeting computers and pulse weapons together. See pg143 Total Warfare, "Targeting Computer." As noted in the subsection, "Pulse and Rapid Fire Weapons," you cannot make an aimed shot but the -1 to-hit bonus still applies. The rules have been that way since TW was released in 2006.
Pertinent to this thread, the -2 of a pulse large laser and -1 of a targeting computer make for a very mean combination in a 2d6 system, particularly when the alternative weapon (ER LL and TC) get only -1 and don't have much of a range advantage in the short and medium brackets.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
07/16/13 07:02 PM
72.178.85.122
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I stand corrected the munchkin death ray is still alive and well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/16/13 08:16 PM
208.54.39.148
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I was told that the targeting computer can not be used by any pulse laser under any condition. I think it was PoD that told me that.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
07/16/13 11:44 PM
72.178.85.122
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I had been told that it could not gain the additional -1 of the TargComp thus removing the -3 to the to hit roll number but could still use the target location as a called attack with only the -2 of the pulse laser but I guess we were both told wrong the munchkin effect is still there alive and well...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/17/13 07:38 AM
206.29.182.206
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Yea anything that gets a negative bonus, negative bonus...?, should not get any benefits from a targeting computer.
What a lot of people call being munchkin I call being efficient, but letting pulse weapons to get any benefit from a targeting computer is totally munchkin to me.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Reiter
07/17/13 12:07 PM
142.11.67.185
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Quote:
He could I still think the only reason we see the 50 tons is he is a believer in the bigger is better thinking.
I am sure the same hover tank can be built for 40 tons.
BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Untitled
Tech: Clan / 3060
Config: Hovercraft
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 40 tons
Power Plant: 145 Fusion
Cruise Speed: 86.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 129.6 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Large Pulse Laser
1 Streak SRM 4
1 Anti-Missile System
1 TAG
1 ECM Suite
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Untitled
Mass: 40 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 20 pts Standard 0 4.00
Engine: 145 Fusion 0 5.33
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 2.67
Cruise MP: 8
Flank MP: 12
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.00
Crew: 3 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 4.00
Turret Equipment: 0 1.00
Armor Factor: 125 pts Ferro-Fibrous 1 6.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 4 30
Left / Right Sides: 4 25/25
Rear: 4 15
Turret: 4 30
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Pulse Laser Turret 10 1 6.00
1 Streak SRM 4 Turret 0 25 2 3.00
1 Anti-Missile System Turret 0 24 2 1.50
1 TAG Turret 0 1 1.00
1 ECM Suite Body 0 1 1.00
1 Targeting Computer 1 2.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 0 .00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 9 40.00
Items & Tons Left: 4 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 2,524,800 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,310 (old BV = 1,004)
Cost per BV: 1,927.33
Weapon Value: 678 / 614 (Ratio = .52 / .47)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 17; MRDmg = 12; LRDmg = 7
BattleForce2: MP: 8H, Armor/Structure: 0 / 5
Damage PB/M/L: 3/2/1, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 13
Specials: ecm, tag
Ton for ton, it is possible with a slight tweak. Then again, bigger/better/no cost is un-possible! is boring and stale...like a six year old who must have his picture on the refrigerator every time a drawing is finished. At least it isn't another massive over weight tank, ATN could of went with an XXL on Tech 3 rules and bump the cost (almost 40 million!) to something that would equal the weight of a mixed weight company of IS mechs for a single vehicle!
Its ok, if a bit over weight for my taste.
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Karagin
07/17/13 02:24 PM
72.178.85.122
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I agree and hence why I am saying it's the ultimate munchkin weapon in the game. Gee I can't target a location now big deal, I still can get a -3 to the over all to hit roll which makes the numbers far easier to roll and thus turns your green pilot into a veteran one pretty damn quick and so really why wouldn't the munchkin must win at all cost player not pack two or three of these things on a mech or vehicle and enough heat sinks to fire all damn day and use it wipe out the others side, I mean it's all about winning vs having a good time and enjoying the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/17/13 07:30 PM
208.54.39.170
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Your hover tank is 25% slower than his tank and for a hover craft speed is life.
You have just under 54% less armor than his design.
In a head to head battle he would make total mincemeat out of you. Your advantage is for what his tank costs you can buy just under four of your tanks.
Type/Model: Sniper
Mass: 35 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 25 pts Standard 0 3.50
Engine: 140 Fusion 1 5
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 2.50
Cruise MP: 9
Flank MP: 14
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 0.00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 1.75
Crew: 3 Members 0 .00
Lift Equipment: 0 3.50
Armor Factor: 192 pts Ferro-Fibrous 1 10.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 4 75
Left / Right Sides: 4 50/50
Rear: 4 17
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Large Pulse Laser Front 1 6.00
1 Anti-Missile System front 0 24 2 1.50
1 ECM Suite Body 0 1 1.00
1 Targeting Computer 1 1.20
Cost 1,764,884 C-Bills
My design is only 7% slower than ATNs design and I have an equal amount of armor. His advantage is he has a turret where my main gun is fixed in place pointing to the bow of my hover tank. If it came down to a battle between his tank and mine he would have a great advantage since his main gun is in a turret. Now if you considered what mission that the tank is for I would say that they would do about as equally as well. Come in fast, hit the target and run before anyone can respond with any real firepower.
In a battle between me and Reiter’s design I would say that it all would come down to who could possession the other into a better firing solution. I have the armor and speed where he has a turret.
If you wanted to see who would win on the base of cost I would make mincemeat out of ATN since I have six tanks to his one, Reiter would also win over ATN’s by shear numbers, but my six to Reiter’s four would not be quite as decisive but with a three to two advantage I still would be the obvious favorite to win.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
07/17/13 09:18 PM
72.178.85.122
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I gave it a shot at 45 tons and it was 3 million less and roughly 3 tons lost on the armor but the profile of the vehicle was matched in speed and weapons so overall it kept the same mission profile. Which yours does as well.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
07/18/13 07:09 AM
94.227.126.162
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What did we learn from all this children ?
1) Arbitrarily picking the heaviest possible weight class does not automatically give you the most efficient options.
2) All designs can be countered by exploiting its weaknesses, vehicles can suffer critical hits, given enough impacts (SRM, MRM etc) the chance of a disabling blow is quite high.
3) Cost, weight and BV can and will be used against you.
4) There are no absolutes in Battletech, every design is a tradeoff between, speed, protection and firepower. The more you specialize the bigger the chance it will run into a situation it cannot manage. But a generalist jack of all trades and master at none can face the same problem.
5) You solve this problem by making a balanced force, mixing designs so that you have a good mix represented by the combination of various units, adding up their strengths and making it harder on the enemy to lazily exploit any single weakness.
Here endeth the lesson.
Edited by Rotwang (07/18/13 07:12 AM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/18/13 11:30 AM
206.29.182.148
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Quote:
I was told that the targeting computer can not be used by any pulse laser under any condition. I think it was PoD that told me that.
I found the post. It was Karagin that told me that the targeting computer could not be used with pulse weapons and not PoD.
http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/150941/an/0/page/6#150941
The last post of that thread.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Reiter
07/18/13 12:06 PM
142.11.67.185
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Quote:
My design is only 7% slower than ATNs design and I have an equal amount of armor. His advantage is he has a turret where my main gun is fixed in place pointing to the bow of my hover tank. If it came down to a battle between his tank and mine he would have a great advantage since his main gun is in a turret. Now if you considered what mission that the tank is for I would say that they would do about as equally as well. Come in fast, hit the target and run before anyone can respond with any real firepower.
In a battle between me and Reiter’s design I would say that it all would come down to who could possession the other into a better firing solution. I have the armor and speed where he has a turret.
If you wanted to see who would win on the base of cost I would make mincemeat out of ATN since I have six tanks to his one, Reiter would also win over ATN’s by shear numbers, but my six to Reiter’s four would not be quite as decisive but with a three to two advantage I still would be the obvious favorite to win.
Maybe. Thing is, in the BT world there really isn't a thing such as a "sniper" category in my opinion. A sniper is usually one shot, one kill or using an anti-material rifle to damage critical components for a "soft kill" (immobility to a tank is just as effective as killing the crew straight through the armor...it just delays the tank and can set up for an ambush later). A large pulse laser if your doing a "pseudo-comparison that really doesn't make sense", isn't going to exactly kill a light mech with 10 points of damage unless it gets one of those lucky insta-kill roll of the dice or at least 3 shots to the same location to hit the internal and an ammo explosions. Then again, most light mechs can run 20 hexes in 3 turns provided it isn't something like the dasher...yeah, the hover craft can re-position but I never really used more then 4 maps when I used to play a long time ago with a friend and the LOS wasn't always the best (and a light mech would be hounding the hover craft the entire time). You would have to front load a significant amount of damage to see any effective hits to the mech sheet...otherwise I just see the hover craft as a long range skirmisher and with TAG its a scout with a little bit of fire power and ECM to back up the thin armor.
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Karagin
07/18/13 05:56 PM
72.178.85.122
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The lessons are known but it seems NOT to be followed.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/18/13 07:57 PM
208.54.38.167
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I took sniper as something that attacked at long range. True snipers rarely do a one shot one kill. First they miss a lot more than they would like. Second most what are called snipers are just sharpshooters.
Your thinking more of a contracted assassin sniper than a military sniper. Military snipers don't have the benefit of taking weeks to find the best way to take out a spastic target they shoot at what presents its self to them.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Rotwang
07/19/13 08:39 AM
94.227.126.162
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Quote:
I took sniper as something that attacked at long range. True snipers rarely do a one shot one kill. First they miss a lot more than they would like. Second most what are called snipers are just sharpshooters.
Your thinking more of a contracted assassin sniper than a military sniper. Military snipers don't have the benefit of taking weeks to find the best way to take out a spastic target they shoot at what presents its self to them.
I think this man might disagree ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
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