Retry
02/15/14 01:46 AM
67.239.109.174
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Overview:Ultimate electronic packages. Slow as hell yet stupidly hard to hit. And it's more durable than a stainless steel toaster.
The concept of infantry support vehicle dates as far back as WWII. Such an armored vehicle has just enough speed to keep up with most infantry, excellent armor, but often weak main guns.
These particular mechs are designed to support Crossroadian Shocktrooper battle armor regiments.
The pilot is safely protected by an armored torso-mounted cockpit in the center torso, surrounded by reinforced structure and hardened armor. A movement profile of 2/2 can let it keep up with foot infantry and some battle armor but little else.
These machines are usually deployed in groups of 3 to utilize their nova CEWs.
----Nephilidae Mk.I Infantry Support Mech
Mixed (Base Clan)
100 tons
BV: 3,665
Cost: 20,121,667 C-bills
Source: Crossroads
Movement: 2/2
Engine: 200
Double Heat Sinks: 15 [30]
Cockpit: Torso-Mounted Cockpit
Gyro: Compact Gyro
Internal: 160 (Reinforced)
Armor: 323/323 (Hardened)
Internal Armor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 47
Center Torso (rear) 15
Right Torso 21 32
Right Torso (rear) 10
Left Torso 21 32
Left Torso (rear) 10
Front Right Leg 21 42
Front Left Leg 21 42
Rear Right Leg 21 42
Rear Left Leg 21 42
Weapons Loc Heat
Large Pulse Laser HD 10
Large Pulse Laser HD 10
Equipment Loc
Void Signature System RLL
Angel ECM Suite RT
Bloodhound Active Probe RT
Nova CEWS CT
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Karagin
02/15/14 10:19 PM
70.118.139.48
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A 100 ton mech to support infantry? Yeah not seeing that a even a remotely possible idea for any of the houses to consider. This one ranks up with some of ATN's mechs and super tanks.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/15/14 10:34 PM
67.239.109.174
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It's a good thing it's supposed to be supporting Crossroadian shocktrooper BA elements and not great house infantry elements.
It's not a concept I pulled out of my ****, it's directly inspired by the British Infantry Tank concept. Unless you want to laugh at the Englishmen too.
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ghostrider
02/16/14 01:39 AM
24.30.128.72
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I don't know how much a lot of those systems weight, but it would seem this mech should have more stuff it could carry. Unless the 200 rated engine is an ice, though I don't see any amplifiers.
Never heard of reinforced internals.
The only problem I do have with the rules I know of is having 2 large pulse lasers mounted in the head.
I am assuming the void system in the rll is a typo, otherwise, it looks like this is a quad mech.
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Retry
02/16/14 01:58 AM
67.239.109.174
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200 rated SFE, that is.
The hardened armor and reinforced internals take up a whole lot of weight, but that combined with the VSS(and the quad chassis) makes the mech difficult to kill like no other.
Basically the reinforced internals give a slight bonus against crit hits and also are twice as durable as standard internals.
The head mounted LPLs are thanks to a torso mounted cockpit which frees up 4 crits in the head. The cLPLs take up 2 crits each, so it works perfectly.
The VSS crits are in all applicable slots. It just shows up as the RLL because... I don't know why.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/16/14 03:31 AM
172.56.32.74
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I just don't see the Clans using such a mech. I would think it would be seen as a cowards mech by Clan warriors.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/16/14 04:31 AM
67.239.109.174
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Call me back when you begin reading the intro...
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/16/14 10:47 AM
208.54.5.238
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Your intro is irrelevant if it goes against cannon of everything the Clans believe in as a whole or as individual warriors.
Clan warriors believe in the offense, hiding behind something is seen as the act of a coward and is unclan behavior.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
02/16/14 11:26 AM
70.118.139.48
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Given that tanks supporting infantry was a poor tactical idea and failed when actually used in combat, then yes I will laugh at the English military thinking at the time just as the Germans did.
The Clans do not use mechs to support infantry. Thus the idea is akin to some of ATN's crazy mobile bunkers and 100 ton scout mechs, which yours falls into, the 100 ton scout mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/16/14 01:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Yeah, not sure what history book you're getting this from, but the entire purpose of a tank is to support infantry. It's not some lone wolf tank or pillbox hunter.
"These particular mechs are designed to support Crossroadian Shocktrooper battle armor regiments."
I don't give a damn if the clans won't use it when the clans won't be using it.
Therefore the intro is the entire point and is no way irrelevant.
Even if the vehicle was a clan vehicle(it's not), it would have a decent chance of adoption to Hell's Horses who use combined arms tactics more often than most.
Edited by Retry (02/16/14 01:42 PM)
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Karagin
02/16/14 01:53 PM
70.118.139.48
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Tanks are NOT there to support infantry, they are used to break through enemy lines, and destroy enemy armor formations, they are NOT supportive of infantry, when in fact it is the other way around. Infantry support tanks, keeping the enemy infantry away from the armor. How about reading a book or a 100 on armored warfare and even if this thing is meant to work with BA, battlearmor IS STILL INFANTRY.
Tanks engage tanks, that was what ALL nations got out the failed Tanks support infantry thinking of the post WW1 military elite. WW2 showed in spades how that idea was wrong. Same with the idea of tank destroyers being the only thing to take on tanks. One reason many nations use a combined arms setup, that way all elements work together to break the enemy and defeat them so as to allow victory.
And yes it does matter what the Clans do, since you haven't given us anything that works as a point of departure for how the Clans differ in your take on the BT universe so until you do, the Clans would not use this, just like the Inner Sphere or Clans would not build ATN's crawling pillbox/bunker tanks.
And a 50 ton Clan mech could mount the weapons and electronics and get the job done and have more of them.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/16/14 02:09 PM
67.239.109.174
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What I ate for breakfast this morning is about as relevant as whether the clans would care for it when the clans don't use it.
Infantry today still can be operated without tanks. Tanks today cannot be operated without infantry, unless you want to take an RPG-7 to the kne... er, turret. Tanks cannot hold territory, only infantry can. You don't build your forces around your armor. Hence, tanks still today support infantry.
"These particular mechs are designed to support Crossroadian Shocktrooper battle armor regiments."
Quite frankly I am not in the mood to create a page long introduction on the alternate history faction Crossroads again.
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Karagin
02/16/14 02:14 PM
70.118.139.48
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Well if you don't give us the details as to what group is using this and why etc...then I guess we will only have the part that it is a Clan tech mech, thus would 99% of the time be found in the hands of Clan warriors. Thus making it a Clan mech.
Infantry and tanks work together, infantry is not going to engage tanks head on, they will snipe and hide, using the AT weapons they have but none of them will stand and face a battalion of tanks. Again did you miss the part about combined arms? Mechs are there to defeat the enemy mechs and tanks, infantry is there to keep the enemy infantry engaged and away from the mechs and tanks, thus the idea is infantry supports tanks and mechs, not the other other way around.
And given things like ECM, Reactive Armor (Blazer etc...) and a host of other real world systems that are set up to confuse and stop Infantry based AT weapons yeah the RPG-7 isn't going to always take out a tank unless used up close and personal. And smart military commanders don't let their forces be sucked into a battle that they can't use their advantages in their favor.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/16/14 02:16 PM
67.239.109.174
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I already had in some other thread, I think the Mirage Chopper one. Just assume it's not being used by the clans as I had already stated multiple times.
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ghostrider
02/16/14 03:18 PM
24.30.128.72
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crossroads is the fiction version of battle tech.
I do agree that in battle tech, the clans use battle armored infantry to support mechs, and would not make an infantry support mech this large. Something like the paranha mech would be used.
But as retry stated in the opening lines, this is not canon. one responce or even reading the information in the opening post is enough to say that.
Now Karagin has a point about the unit being larger then needed. If they would put up an example, then they have argued the same thing you did in another thread.
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Karagin
02/16/14 03:32 PM
70.118.139.48
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Only thing not there is the Nova System...
Code: BattleMech Technical Readout
Custom* Weapons
Type/Model: ATI Mech
Tech: Mixed Tech / 3132
Config: Quad BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: Reinforced (IS)
Power Plant: 120 XL Fusion (C)
Walking Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 21.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Hardened
Armament:
1 Bloodhound Probe(IS)
1 Angel ECM Suite (C)
1 Void Sig System(1)*(IS)
2 Large Pulse Lasers (C)
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: ATI Mech
Mass: 60 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 107 pts Reinforced (IS) 0 12.00
Engine: 120 XL Fusion 10 2.00
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 15 Double (C) [30] 22 5.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LFL, 1 RFL, 3 LT, 3 RT, 1 CT, 1 LRL, 1 RRL)
Compact Gyro: 2 3.00
Torso-Mounted Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 6 4.00
Leg Act: Hip + UpLeg + LowLeg + Foot 16 .00
Armor Factor: 148 (IS) 0 18.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 20 19
Center Torso (Rear): 6
L/R Side Torso: 14 14/14
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 5/5
L/R Front Leg: 14 19/19
L/R Rear Leg: 14 19/19
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Bloodhound Probe (IS) RT 0 3 2.00
1 Angel ECM Suite (C) LT 0 2 1.50
1 Void Sig System(1)* (ISLT 4 1 .00
2 Large Pulse Lasers (C) HD 20 4 12.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 24 66 60.00
Crits & Tons Left: 0 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 11,832,800 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,404 (old BV = 1,263)
Cost per BV2: 8,427.92
Weapon Value: 2,386 / 2,386 (Ratio = 1.70 / 1.70)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 21; MRDmg = 18; LRDmg = 12
BattleForce2: MP: 2, Armor/Structure: 4/2
Damage PB/M/L: 3/2/2, Overheat: 0
Class: MH; Point Value: 14
Specials: ecm, prb
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/16/14 03:45 PM
70.118.139.48
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Code: BattleMech Technical Readout
Custom* Weapons
Type/Model: ATI 2
Tech: Mixed Tech / 3025
Config: Quad BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 50 tons
Chassis: Reinforced (C)
Power Plant: 100 XL Fusion (C)
Walking Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 21.6 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Hardened
Armament:
1 Angel ECM Suite(C)
1 Bloodhound Probe (IS)
1 Nova CEWS*(C)
2 Large Pulse Lasers(C)
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: ATI 2
Mass: 50 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 91 pts Reinforced (C) 0 10.00
Engine: 100 XL Fusion 10 1.50
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 2
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 14 Double (C) [28] 20 4.00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LFL, 1 RFL, 3 LT, 3 RT, 1 LRL, 1 RRL)
Compact Gyro: 2 1.50
Torso-Mounted Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 6 4.00
Leg Act: Hip + UpLeg + LowLeg + Foot 16 .00
Armor Factor: 96 (C) 0 12.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 16 11
Center Torso (Rear): 4
L/R Side Torso: 12 9/9
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 3/3
L/R Front Leg: 12 12/12
L/R Rear Leg: 12 12/12
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Angel ECM Suite (C) RT 0 2 1.50
1 Bloodhound Probe (IS) LT 0 3 2.00
1 Nova CEWS* (C) CT 2 1 1.50
2 Large Pulse Lasers (C) HD 20 4 12.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 22 64 50.00
Crits & Tons Left: 2 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 24,431,000 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,118 (old BV = 1,024)
Cost per BV2: 21,852.42
Weapon Value: 1,675 / 1,675 (Ratio = 1.50 / 1.50)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 21; MRDmg = 18; LRDmg = 12
BattleForce2: MP: 2, Armor/Structure: 2/3
Damage PB/M/L: 3/2/2, Overheat: 0
Class: MM; Point Value: 11
Specials: ecm, prb
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/16/14 05:36 PM
24.30.128.72
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missing the void signature system. depending on the weight, a ton of armor could be removed for it.
Now granted the armor is lighter on these ones, and the xl fusion in the 50 tonners brings up the price over the original, but it is usable.
If these are deployed in groups of 3, it might be worth having varients carrying some of the equipment instead of all of it.
Thinking about it, infantry support would be dealing with armored vehicles or other infantry? Might need to refine the weapons package for anti infantry operations.
Though the pulse laser is supposed to be good for anti infantry.
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Retry
02/16/14 06:12 PM
67.239.109.174
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An XL engine? Are you crazy?
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Retry
02/16/14 07:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Your 60 tonner has about less than half the survivability of the original Nephilidae(Especially due to the XL engine). The 2nd one doesn't even have a VSS, which is crucial for it's survival.
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Karagin
02/16/14 07:45 PM
70.118.139.48
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Actually the VSS is not needed. Since it is there to support infantry and they will SEE the damn thing with their Mark One Eye Balls with or without the battlearmor HUD. As for the XL engine, it works well enough with it and given that this is NOT an omni mech it allows it to carry all of the goodies you had minus one or the other and again the idea isn't even remotely workable considering the other side would more then likely assign a mech to kill the damn thing and let their own BA/non-augmented infantry deal with your infantry.
Ghostrider the whole idea of Retry's needs to be redefined and rethought out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/16/14 09:47 PM
24.30.128.72
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thinking about it, a movement of 2 might match infantry movement out in the open, but would not work well in forest or rough terrain.
Also, I thought battle armor had a movement of 3. Or is this particular armor slower then normal?
Also, I would figure an anti missle system would be needed against battle armor srms, but not sure if these ones have that.
Another question. Wouldn't the mech be vulnerable to swarm attacks if it can't get away from the enemy infantry?
just curious.
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Karagin
02/16/14 09:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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All good points and noting here the mechs is Quad mech not a Biped mech...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/16/14 10:28 PM
67.239.109.174
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You and your apparently godly Mk.I Eyeballs.
VSS is scaled up mimetic armor which in turn is basically color-changing armor that lets it blend into the environment like a chameleon. Infantry are not exempt from the targeting modifiers; they suffer from them as well as the stealth is visual and not a heat baffler like the Null system is.
Mk.I Eyeballs my ****.
XL engines WILL NOT WORK! I have tried the concept as a prototype before sticking with a SFE in-game! A faltering side torso, with an XLE, makes the mech much less capable of handling anything due to heat concerns. In which case if they manage to breach both armored torsos you will suffer incredible discomfort followed by a quick death.
The 2 LPLs are intended to dissuade whatever armor it and the infantry regiment encounters en-route, and perhaps enemy BA too. More often than not assault mechs will be obliterated by a few infantry/BA platoons and a Nephilidae, as I have tested.
Void Signature System is absolutely necessary to ensure the safety of the Nephilidae. It moves way too slow that otherwise it would be a very easy target.
It becomes an especially annoying ***** to take down when it's hull down in a heavy forest.
Biped BA has movement mods of around 1 to 3. A sprinting nephilidae can spend 3 MP on open ground.
AMS is not necessary. I originally tried a concept with LAMS and the heat producing effect taxed the heat sinks too much. I couldn't add more DHS because I was already low on space. So they were removed.
Plus to get a good shot said BA will have to be stupidly close to the Nephilidae, if it has it's VSS on.
It would be vulnerable to infantry swarms. Then again, the design is an Infantry Support Mech. Assuming said infantry are around, tough luck getting close enough.
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ghostrider
02/16/14 10:59 PM
24.30.128.72
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That answers the questions I had seen. I'm used to the run speed being a sprint.
The side torso being breached would depend on if using a clan xl or an innersphere xl.
But wouldn't losing a torso mean losing the front limb on that side? It would still move though.
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Retry
02/16/14 11:01 PM
67.239.109.174
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It would lose the front limb, yes. It could still stand upright though. It's not like it's going anywhere quickly anyways.
That and it would take an immense amount of effort to just kill off a side torso.
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Retry
02/16/14 11:02 PM
67.239.109.174
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I'd like to amend that statement. It does take an immense amount of effort.
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Karagin
02/16/14 11:15 PM
70.118.139.48
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Retry you seem to think that the other side won't have items or counters to your GOD like wonder toys in use, that is nice way of saying that you think your stuff will always win, same concept ATN keeps claiming.
All of those toys come at a price and wasting all of them on a 100 ton quad mech when it could be done on a smaller chassis doesn't make any sense, normal Clan usage or an alternate BT universe aside, it doesn't make sense to have an assault mech for this role you seem to have in mind, one that very easily stopped by the other side playing to their strengths and your weakness of slow speed, tied to the BA it is supporting and the fact that it is a quad.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/16/14 11:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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I didn't say or think that. Artillery and Air Support would probably be the best way to take out such a mech. It would still take a lot of it due to it's durability.
It would overall be easier to produce than the average "average" 3080s mechs, at least the basic frame of it. The ones with XLEs and endo-steel especially. The only really advanced stuff is the electronics suite, which stand more of a chance to survive in this behemoth's huge husk. Arguably it's the smaller mechs that it would be wasted on, seeing as a mistake made on their part will result in almost definite destruction of those precious electronic suites.
You can cut out the theoretical crap and actually test the design extensively as I have, and watch your arguements against it collapse.
But then again, I'm talking to the same person that just HAD to have 5x RACs on his carrier tank when it had no business carrying so many.
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Karagin
02/16/14 11:35 PM
70.118.139.48
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I can see that you don't like your stuff question or criticized. I really don't care if you liked or disliked the Dragon HAAAV.
I don't see your concept of a 100 ton mech who's sole purpose is to waddle along with Battlearmor and support it. I don't see it working and yes I can use it in my next game and see how it fails or is ignored by the other side since it's not a threat to anything else but buildings and trees.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/16/14 11:45 PM
67.239.109.174
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It's not so much as having it questioned or criticized as it is that you continuously push your poorly constructed arguements. It was clearest when you commented that the VSS was "not needed" because you could counter it simply by looking at it w/o sensors, which could not be further from the truth.
And quite frankly, you are rude.
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ghostrider
02/17/14 01:27 AM
24.30.128.72
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The enemy having ecm and such might counter everything this unit has. That is possible. It is possible the enemy might have a hatchet wielding mech to take it out. There are a lot of possibilities.
I can see retry likes the ecm/stealth on alot of units. It is my guess that the enemy either is not using, or cares to use them. There is no big problem with this. Atn loves his oversized units, probably because his opponents don't use logic to take them out. It is how each player does his thing.
One of these days you need to get cray or nic to host a game for you to play in. Then you could see how each other uses units.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/14 06:40 AM
172.56.8.162
|
Quote:
One of these days you need to get cray or nic to host a game for you to play in. Then you could see how each other uses units.
Oh the humanity!!!
That would be such a one sided slaughter! Retry would go down within just a couple of turns.
Karagin Might be even a worse opponent depending on his military training in tactics. Someone that would be really bad to go up against is a chest master that loves BT.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
02/17/14 11:15 AM
70.118.139.48
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Seeing how I don't use MegaMek, their hosting a game for me would not happen. I play face to face on the table top with real dice and real people. And I do try to make many of the gaming conventions in Texas.
But if you feel that your stuff is so much better Retry then hey that is as I said your opinion. I point out that you don't need something and showed that the same mech can be built on a smaller chassis, which was my point, doing the same over all job. You didn't like it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 12:36 PM
67.239.109.174
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Gimping it with an XL engine and less-than-max armor hardly makes it the same mech.
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Karagin
02/17/14 01:06 PM
70.118.139.48
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Right and a 100 ton crawling mech that sole reason of being built is to support BA...that is way better not.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 01:13 PM
67.239.109.174
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Because a bigger engine would benefit a mech using VSS so much...
(Hint:It doesn't. Tested in game)
Edited by Retry (02/17/14 01:20 PM)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/17/14 02:00 PM
50.72.218.68
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I'm torn on this. It's hard to deny the effectiveness of something that Just. Won't. Die. Twin cLPLs make is a dangerous machine to ignore while you focus on the Battlearmour.
On the other hand, the complete lack of speed drastically reduces its ability to affect the battle, so unless it's tasked with guarding a critical installation, it can probably be simply bypassed. Then there's the price tag: 20 million just to back up infantry. I would expect the battlearmour would benefit more from rapit transport into the thick of the fight.
If my mission was to kill this thing and its associated infantry, I could see that being extremely difficult...would probably have to weather the LPL fire until I cleared the infantry, then mob it from close range, ideally with my own pulse lasers.
In the grand scheme of things, it would probably be more effective to use a 50-ton knock-off, and field 3-4 times as many if them. With each 'Mech and its Battlearmour creating a little island on the battlefield, they would be much more difficult to bypass or ignore.
Overall, I like the concept, but having to commit 100 tons of High Tech expense to supporting infantry just seems inefficient.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/17/14 02:25 PM
70.118.139.48
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So you are saying Kamikaze that they form the old square infantry formation akin to the British did in the Napoleonic Wars?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/17/14 02:47 PM
50.72.218.68
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Quote:
So you are saying Kamikaze that they form the old square infantry formation akin to the British did in the Napoleonic Wars?
Lol...more or less...although it would be more of a "hex" formation than a "square" formation, wouldn't it?
And same as that era, it should be quite effective, as long as the enemy isn't deploying area-effect like artillery or bombing/strafing runs.
Or nukes...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/17/14 02:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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Correct it would be a hex shape lol....yeah area-effect weapons will make things less wonderful for anyone.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/17/14 03:31 PM
24.30.128.72
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So Karagin has a set of loaded dice. Good to know 
The one thing that seems to be implied is that the enemy has one mech attacking this mech with supporting battle armor. If this is the case, then yes, the one mech should lose.
Have you tested it with the same amount of battle armor on both sides with the mechs? I know that sounds bad, but I think it needed to be asked.
I can see where retry has probably been burned from critted xl engines. It is a pain when you can't fire everything at once all the time. The heat build up bites.
I will say I have not played as much as it sounds like some people have. Most of the time, the game was settled before the armor was stripped off a mech. Always that torso crit taking out part of an engine, or gyro. Or someone decides everything belongs in one arm and when its gone, the mech dies quickly. I have talked with one person that was the unluckiest person I know. He would strip all the armor off a mech before he could do a single point of damage to the internals of his enemies. Just really bad luck there.
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Karagin
02/17/14 03:41 PM
70.118.139.48
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Loaded dice...yeah I wish.
Good point that most fights are over long before armor loss becomes the major issue. We have all had a mech lost to the XL engine getting critted to death, it happens. Saying that is the sole reason not use one is not much a of reason. Knowing a unit's strengths and weaknesses means more then justing know the max effective range of the weapons or picking weapons that only can kill things in one hit, all of that means nothing if you can't get the mech into the fight.
And I provided alternate chassies, while not perfect, sit fit the bill in the idea of the mech supporting infantry and were far cheaper then the 100 ton crawling monster mech, and Retry didn't like the idea, similar ATN's attitude, on how a smaller cheaper mech can do the job. Granted it had draw backs but it still did the job.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/17/14 03:42 PM
70.118.139.48
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Imagine the BA and the supporting mech making the "hex" formation, with whole cluster doing the same and the other side charging in and breaking around these "island", it would be very interesting to see what happens. A modern Waterloo...LOL!
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/17/14 04:19 PM
24.30.128.72
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technically an old style locust or stinger or vulcan would be infantry support mechs. A firestarter mech would be as well.
I guess the best thing to do is define infantry support.
My opinion is a unit that is designed to wipe out large groups of infantry quickly, with some firepower to deal with bunkers and hardened fire positions. They may hang back until the infantry finds an enemy, probably something they can't deal with, and call in the back up.
If this is the case, anything can be infantry support. This could include battle armor.
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Karagin
02/17/14 04:30 PM
70.118.139.48
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Good points.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 04:40 PM
67.239.109.174
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"Cheaper" is very, very relative and abstract in this case. Especially when using some of the most advanced systems in the existance of Battletech. The Void system, the AECM and BHP, and lastly the Nova CEWs. Regardless of the mech chassis and they are mounted on, regardless of the up-front cost, when you lose one of these systems, well...
I'm using the british/french Infantry Tank concept to define the Infantry Support Mech.
"Infantry tanks were designed to support foot soldiers in the attack. To achieve this, the vehicles were generally heavily armoured to allow them to operate in close concert with infantry even under heavy fire. The extra armour came at the expense of speed, which was not an issue when supporting relatively slow moving infantry"
XL engines are not too big an issue on standard mechs who just need to have that extra weight so they can get a bunch of headcappers in the battle. But this one is by design supposed to be the Zombie mech of Zombie mechs so it could support infantry for as long as possible. XL engines in this regard does not help achieve this goal.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/17/14 04:43 PM
24.114.22.123
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Quote:
technically an old style locust or stinger or vulcan would be infantry support mechs. A firestarter mech would be as well.
I guess the best thing to do is define infantry support.
My opinion is a unit that is designed to wipe out large groups of infantry quickly, with some firepower to deal with bunkers and hardened fire positions. They may hang back until the infantry finds an enemy, probably something they can't deal with, and call in the back up.
If this is the case, anything can be infantry support. This could include battle armor.
Part of the original concept was to limit the 'Mech's speed to that of the unitd it's supporting, which I think is where the concept spiralled out of control...a slow 'Mech supporting Infantry/Battlearmour becomes a primary target, so itneeds to be able to survive...this unit has so much invested in survivability that it has little else to contribute...it's own firepower is matchef by most modern 30-40-tonners.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/17/14 04:45 PM
70.118.139.48
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Your idea has flaws, too many to be practical in this game really, no one is going to ignore the BA and they will destroy the mech by area denial and given that it has to weapons it not that big of a threat to a smart player who will divided it away from the infantry and defeat it in detail, just as was done to the Brits and French support tanks in the opening days of WW2.
But as you keep telling up this is alternate setting, so maybe in your take on things the concept worked...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 04:51 PM
67.239.109.174
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That's the thing about being connected to infantry regiments. One does not simply divide the Nephilidae from it's attached group.
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Karagin
02/17/14 04:56 PM
70.118.139.48
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Okay Retry if you say so, then it must be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/17/14 05:02 PM
67.239.109.174
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An additional comment:Often the hostiles won't realize the Nephilidaes are there due to their VSS until it's too late. So it will have the element of surprise among other things.
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Retry
02/17/14 05:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Have you tested it with the same amount of battle armor on both sides with the mechs? I know that sounds bad, but I think it needed to be asked.
The Nephilidae's cLPLs generally shredded medium battle armor and were serious threats to heavy and assault battle armor. A direct hit(MoS of 3) do an Elemental will kill it. Conventional infantry are tricky though.
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Cray
02/17/14 07:31 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
The Clans do not use mechs to support infantry.
Yes, they do. From the first Blood of Kerensky novel to the current setting, the Clans work in a close combined arms formations. OmniMechs are designed to carry battle armor into combat.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
02/17/14 07:34 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
Actually the VSS is not needed. Since it is there to support infantry and they will SEE the damn thing with their Mark One Eye Balls with or without the battlearmor HUD.
Karagin, the Void Signature System gives a blanket to-hit penalty to all attackers including infantry using their Mark One Eyeballs. Yes, the infantry will see it. They will still have a penalty to hit. Chalk it up to the benefits of camo.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/17/14 07:34 PM
70.118.139.48
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Working together and carrying them is not the same as a dedicated mech who's only job is to slog along with them supporting them only and being 100 tons on top of that.
The Clans use combined arms to a point, but once the battle is joined the mechs go off to kill other mechs and leave the battlearmor to do what they do best. And see how terrifying the Inner Sphere was of Battlearmor they built mechs to take it out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/14 10:26 PM
172.56.6.241
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This my the Clan IIC Blazzer
Technology Base: - Clan L3
Equipment Mass 75
Internal Structure: -Endo Steel
Engine: 375 XL
Walking MP: 5
Running MP: 8
Jumping MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 14(28) Double
Gyro: 4
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor: Ferro-Fibrous 230 12t
Internal Armor/Armor
Internal Armor/Armor
Head 3/9
Center Torso 23/35
Center Torso(rear) -/10
R/L Torso 16/25
R/L Torso(rear) -7
R/L Arm 12/24
R/L Leg 16/32
Weapons and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
ER Large Laser LA 1 4
3 Pulse Lasers LT 3 6
ER Large Laser RA 1 4
3 Pulse Lasers RT 3 6
Targeting Computer LT 2 2
Targeting Computer RT 2 2
I can stay at long range with the ERLL and pick away at Retry's meck armor even if it takes hours. Do to my speed me being over ran or him trying to retreat is not a risk. And if the armored infinity tried to attack unsupported by the walking target I can wipe them out with the MPLs.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/17/14 10:30 PM
67.239.109.174
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You can't stay at long range and pick away because you can only see the mech at 15 hexes or less, since the VSS cuts the visual range by a fourth from the normal visual range of 60.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/17/14 11:33 PM
172.56.6.241
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The wiki says nothing about that. It just says there is a modifier depending on the movement of the carrying mech. The faster it moves the less the bonus.
Game Rules
A 'Mech with this system may not mount a Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, Null Signature System, or Stealth Armor. Any Satellite Uplink systems, Targeting Computers or C3 equipment cannot be mounted either.
When the system is active, a 'Mech with the system generates 10 points of heat more than it usually would. When active, the system's stealth ability depends on how much the 'Mech moved, with greater benefits with less movement. However, while the system is active, all shots fired by the unit suffer reduced accuracy.
Like Mimetic Armor, when the Void system is active attacking units gain a to-hit penalty based on the 'Mech's movement. If a Mech doesn't move, the Void system imposes a +3 to hit penalty on the attacker. A Mech that moves 1-2 hexes imposes a +2 to hit penalty, and if the Mech moves 3-5 hexes the attacker suffers a +1 to hit penalty. A Mech that moves 6 or more hexes imposes no to-hit penalty. In addition conventional infantry are less confused by the Void's electronic countermeasure systems and so any to-hit penalty imposed by the Void system is reduced by 1 point. An active Void system is invisible to every electronic probe except the Bloodhound Active Probe.[1]
The void signature system does not weigh a significant amount by itself. However, it does require an ECM suite to be installed to function. The system takes up one critical slot in each of the 'Mech's hit locations except for the head, for a total of seven critical slots. A critical hit to any of these slots (including the ECM suite) will disable the entire system.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Edited by His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey (02/17/14 11:34 PM)
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Retry
02/17/14 11:47 PM
67.239.109.174
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Can't find it but I'm fairly certain it gives sight penalties.
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ghostrider
02/18/14 05:11 AM
24.30.128.72
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ok. setting the speed to infantry and having a unit being an infantry support unit is not one and the same. Back when tanks were being researched, this made sense.
Any unit could be used, but the pilot/driver would be the one to decide to go slow or scout, or even move from flank to flank to draw fire without making itself a target.
Most of what I have seen in the argument is retrys unit seems to be in an ambush scenario. That's ok. He is trying to bring forth a unit that he feels is a good unit for his playing group. That's ok too.
I am surprised the word munchie has not been used. No offense retry.
The large pulse lasers would work to kill 2 battle armors before they knew it was there in an ambush scenario. If you unit was moving, they should be able to know what is up, unless you are running the system the entire time. That is also assuming the enemy doesn't know about the unit.
If they do, seismic sensors as well as vibromines would say it's in the area. The infantry would also suggest it was there from their formation.
Now I will assume that the battle has never stripped the infantry support for the mech. I would also assume they never sent a hatchet wielding short range mech after you with support. This also says no one else has used any of the systems back.
But as it was said before, this is a design you use with your group. If it works, then keep using it.
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Karagin
02/18/14 06:28 AM
70.118.139.48
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He claims that the BA will never be stripped away from the mechs cause you can't strip a regiments worth of BA away from the mechs. Funny thing is artillery and other attacks will do just that and a mech with jump jets is a threat to this troting mech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/18/14 12:51 PM
72.214.204.166
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The cLPL can keep plasma equipped opponents at bay due to the range advantage.
If artillery is in play the mech doesn't have much of a chance, I've said that already. Neither would any other mech.
And shame on the infantry for not taking field artillery for counter fire.
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ghostrider
02/18/14 05:37 PM
24.30.128.72
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The Clan large pulse lasers have great range, but there are a few other clan energy weapons that have better. That is not saying its a pissing game.
The big deal here is when the battle armor is neutralized. Rushing the mech would be a good option at that time. Flank it and no return physicals. Axes at this point would be very devastating. But then that could be said with alot of other mechs, like armless ones.
Artillery would be the bane to all slow moving mechs. Faster ones can outmanuever strikes, since most are lance sized. The faster the mech, the less likely of guessing where it will be when the strike hits. If they are guarding something, then it becomes the same immobile target.
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Retry
02/18/14 06:22 PM
67.239.109.174
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The Nephilidae can still kick, it's not completely helpless.
If the BA is neutralized, the Nephilidae(along with other supporting elements such as friendly self-propelled guns and ASF) have failed it's duty so it won't be much of a suprise what comes next.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/18/14 10:02 PM
172.56.16.48
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My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down.
I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark.
I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso.
If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long.
Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3.
The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/18/14 10:09 PM
172.56.16.48
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Now if you want to use the argument that you wont have just one mech that will mean I will have more than one mech also and I can use group tactics to overwhelm your mechs one at a time.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
02/18/14 10:47 PM
70.118.139.48
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It is a quad mech, it is limited in what it can to do as far as getting up from damage etc...lose a leg or two and it's not going anyplace fast. Plus Thunder LRMs and FASCAM can pin it in place.
Meanwhile the other forces in your group are dealing with infantry and vehicles and other attacks as well as enemy mechs who are not going to play tag with the BA, they are going to go after the mech, which to them is a bigger threat. You have invested a lot into this crawling 100 ton quad who has a mere two guns and some really cool high tech wonder toys that are great but cost you in that you are losing out on other weapons.
I wonder how long it would take the pulse lasers to smash through a building as found in the BT universe, with Ferro-crete and other exotic materials to plain old brick and mortar with steel frames etc...
One thing I think you are forgetting Retry, is this, yes your tactic will work ONCE, and then once the enemy has seen it and can plan for it they will come up with away to defeat it. Just as what happen in real life, so too will happen in the next game played against you in BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 12:11 AM
24.30.128.72
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Any mech can be beat with planning. As much as most would agree a 100 ton infantry support mech would not be a good idea, this mech does have advantages. It would be better if it was faster and could support an assault with the ecm and such. If it were innersphere, it would make a good c3 master carrier.
Problem with light bending paint is once you get it marred, you can see where the unit is. One thing people do not seem to use is narc beacons. This should negate anything like that besides the ecm unit.
An emp mine could take out the electronics and leg actuators, but that is true with any unit that is hit.
This mech would be better suited for infiltration behind enemy lines if it were faster. Hide the battle armor and itself from patrols as it moves. Problem is the weight vs speed.
It is a usable design, and could very well help defend an area if the enemy has no reason to suspect its there.
For the price, it would be better to use other units to match it. Maybe 3 or more instead of 1.
And if the fluff, it says they are normally deployed in 3's.
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Retry
02/19/14 01:03 AM
67.239.109.174
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A quad loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere fast.
A bipedal mech loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere. Period.
Narc wouldn't help unless the enemy has a big ECM advantage, which isn't likely given that the Nephilidae already has one of the best electronic suites possible. ECM(At least AECM) nullifies the effects of Narc Missile Beacons which is why many people prefer to use TAG for their LRM boats instead.
If we bring in mines to the equation I must mention minesweepers. Being pinned down is not much of a problem when the unit's best way to survive is to not move. Between encounters the mines can simply be disabled.
Looks like we're back on theoreticals. Again, again, again. I'm about ready to stop explaining what works when actually play-testing it.
No, it hasn't worked merely once. People have tried ignoring it and charging straight for the juicy Battle Armor or the supporting vees or the VTOLs(Which is an even bigger mistake when they're my Mirages). Often it takes a simple side stepping maneuver from the Nephilidae to block or hinder it.
Trying to go around it tends to result in little getting done. The infantry and supporting vees just go the other way, and the Nephilidae saturates the field with Pulse Laser Fire at long or extreme range.(Which for one unlucky bloke with an atlas resulted in a turn 1 headshot). This also assumes there are not more Nephilidaes around, which is a foolish assumption. Speaking of which, the ER LL doesn't have a very significant extreme range advantage at all. IIRC, extreme range is calculated by doubling the medium range. Therefore it would be 28 cLPL to 30 cERLL.
And if the damn thing manages to make it to the cities? It's over. Just put down your weapons and leave peacefully.
Which is good because often the cities are the most important part of a planet.
----
Time to nitpick donkey's arguements.
"My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down."
With Extreme Range Rules, you outrange me by 2(IIRC). And at +3 VSS +6 Extreme Range +1 likely prone quad in one of the worst case scenarios adding up to a +10 you won't hit at all, not just not having much of a chance.
"I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark."
And the elementals(among other armor) hide behind the Nephilidae like they are supposed to do and you can't get to them without going around, which just doesn't help your case as I already have shown. You can try to go through as well, but that's certainly suicide.
"I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso."
You deal 3 and a half points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with your MPL. It's not rounded. For halves you cross out half a circle of an armor point. So that is going to take 1 more than 4.
"If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long."
Many, many turns that require you to not get killed by my comrades. And that's if I want to react to your flanking threat. I don't have to and may not necessarily want to.
"Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3."
That assumes you don't make a mistake or can avoid me simply moving backwards or side stepping a bit and mule kicking you in the knee. Assuming I bother to break position in my heavy woods prone or my hill I'm hull downed in and move at all. The Nephilidae is really durable and if there's anyone behind it I can depend on them to remove the flanker.
I love it when people try to lecture me and end up getting their beginning statement wrong. 2 is walking. There is no running speed on this mech; the hardened armor removes the 1 running MP it would have had. There is a sprinting speed of 3 with an extra rule though, so technically it can turn on a dime to present you it's front arc. It won't be able to shoot but it buys the mech much needed time for it's aircraft/infantry/tanks/whatever to bail it out. And then this is all dependant that the terrain happens to work out in your favor to work at all, even without supporting assets.
If you are assuming they are all somehow dead,
1.It's a strategy failure on the commander's fault of keeping the escortees alive, not the nephilidae
2.Nothing short of a dropship would make it out alive in the first place, not like the Nephilidae is special for dying in such a circumstance.
"The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL."
It'll have to be from 29 or 30 WITH NO INTERVENING TERRAIN with extreme range rules which I always use. Even without them, the NO INTERVENING TERRAIN part is very very very very VERY important. That's the thing with trying to disprove the design with theoretical situations, they seem to be limited to test tube environments.
Which, as mentioned before but apparently discarded, I have tested them without such a test tub environment and they are not quite the crap you make them out to be at all.
Edited by Retry (02/19/14 01:15 AM)
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KamikazeJohnson
02/19/14 02:37 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
A quad loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere fast.
A bipedal mech loses a leg, it isn't going anywhere. Period.
Narc wouldn't help unless the enemy has a big ECM advantage, which isn't likely given that the Nephilidae already has one of the best electronic suites possible. ECM(At least AECM) nullifies the effects of Narc Missile Beacons which is why many people prefer to use TAG for their LRM boats instead.
If we bring in mines to the equation I must mention minesweepers. Being pinned down is not much of a problem when the unit's best way to survive is to not move. Between encounters the mines can simply be disabled.
Looks like we're back on theoreticals. Again, again, again. I'm about ready to stop explaining what works when actually play-testing it.
No, it hasn't worked merely once. People have tried ignoring it and charging straight for the juicy Battle Armor or the supporting vees or the VTOLs(Which is an even bigger mistake when they're my Mirages). Often it takes a simple side stepping maneuver from the Nephilidae to block or hinder it.
Trying to go around it tends to result in little getting done. The infantry and supporting vees just go the other way, and the Nephilidae saturates the field with Pulse Laser Fire at long or extreme range.(Which for one unlucky bloke with an atlas resulted in a turn 1 headshot). This also assumes there are not more Nephilidaes around, which is a foolish assumption. Speaking of which, the ER LL doesn't have a very significant extreme range advantage at all. IIRC, extreme range is calculated by doubling the medium range. Therefore it would be 28 cLPL to 30 cERLL.
And if the damn thing manages to make it to the cities? It's over. Just put down your weapons and leave peacefully.
Which is good because often the cities are the most important part of a planet.
----
Time to nitpick donkey's arguements.
"My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down."
With Extreme Range Rules, you outrange me by 2(IIRC). And at +3 VSS +6 Extreme Range +1 likely prone quad in one of the worst case scenarios adding up to a +10 you won't hit at all, not just not having much of a chance.
"I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark."
And the elementals(among other armor) hide behind the Nephilidae like they are supposed to do and you can't get to them without going around, which just doesn't help your case as I already have shown. You can try to go through as well, but that's certainly suicide.
"I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso."
You deal 3 and a half points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with your MPL. It's not rounded. For halves you cross out half a circle of an armor point. So that is going to take 1 more than 4.
"If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long."
Many, many turns that require you to not get killed by my comrades. And that's if I want to react to your flanking threat. I don't have to and may not necessarily want to.
"Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3."
That assumes you don't make a mistake or can avoid me simply moving backwards or side stepping a bit and mule kicking you in the knee. Assuming I bother to break position in my heavy woods prone or my hill I'm hull downed in and move at all. The Nephilidae is really durable and if there's anyone behind it I can depend on them to remove the flanker.
I love it when people try to lecture me and end up getting their beginning statement wrong. 2 is walking. There is no running speed on this mech; the hardened armor removes the 1 running MP it would have had. There is a sprinting speed of 3 with an extra rule though, so technically it can turn on a dime to present you it's front arc. It won't be able to shoot but it buys the mech much needed time for it's aircraft/infantry/tanks/whatever to bail it out. And then this is all dependant that the terrain happens to work out in your favor to work at all, even without supporting assets.
If you are assuming they are all somehow dead,
1.It's a strategy failure on the commander's fault of keeping the escortees alive, not the nephilidae
2.Nothing short of a dropship would make it out alive in the first place, not like the Nephilidae is special for dying in such a circumstance.
"The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL."
It'll have to be from 29 or 30 WITH NO INTERVENING TERRAIN with extreme range rules which I always use. Even without them, the NO INTERVENING TERRAIN part is very very very very VERY important. That's the thing with trying to disprove the design with theoretical situations, they seem to be limited to test tube environments.
Which, as mentioned before but apparently discarded, I have tested them without such a test tub environment and they are not quite the crap you make them out to be at all.
I think Karagin really hit the nail on the head earlier with his reference to the Infantry Square of the Napoleonic Wars (see also Phalanx: Ancient Greece, or even Tercio: Thirty Years' War). These slow-moving, strongly defensive formations typically ruled the battlefield until such time as adequate field artillery could be brought to bear against them. And other things being equal, I maintain that artillery coupled with a more mobile force (to dodge conpeting artillery) is the best force to counter this. There are many points to consider:
If the enemy has sufficient artillery, he can tear you apart. If not, he could be in trouble.
If the enemy has sufficient ECCM, he can tear you apart. If not, he could be in trouble.
If the enemy takes advantage of your massive investment in defensive technology to overwhelm your accompanying forced with sheer obliterating firepower, he can tear you apart. If his Intel and tactical skills are not up to the task, he could be in trouble.
Here's the question that's been bugging me though...aside from being as close to indestructible as a 'Mech can get, and providing light (for a ClanTech 100-tonner) supporting fire, what wonderful things does this do to assist your Battlearmour? I'm not familiar enough with ECM rules to see it myself.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Karagin
02/19/14 06:44 AM
70.118.139.48
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Wow Retry you have answers for everything. I would really like to play against you face to face and see if your tactical ideas would work since no in their right mind is going to charge head long into a fight and not have forces to take on the BA and the mechs. No one with an ounce of understanding tactics would anyway.
The point you clearly missed, a biped loses an arm, i can still prop it self up and get back up from a fall. Lose a leg it can still prop itself up and fire it's weapons to a point. A quad isn't going to do all that and your mech doesn't even have jump jets. Yet again another problem that prevents it from doing much in a city or close quarters terrain.
Based off your comments I can see you don't understand flanking, flanking is moving around something and hitting in an area it's not ready. But as you said your super support mech can side step and stop such things when in all reality of the game, it can't. For one it's not fast enough to stop anything from flanking the force, and two it has limited weapons. And three it is as you keep preaching tied to the battlearmor it is supporting. So it has to turn to do torso facings, which limits' weapons firing and a smart player will use that time again to beat it.
Sure the mech can kick, big deal. No one is going to get that close to it. Yes it has Clan Pulse weapons again big deal. Those are dealt with by staying at medium to long range and using things like LRMs etc...to whittle away at your crawling mech. And NO the battlearmor won't be that big of an issue since my own infantry/battlearmor/vehicles and artillery etc will and can deal with. Since unlike some of the folks or is the bots on MegaMek, you play against, I would not go tromping into a city without the forces needed to at least win or if that fails, hurt your side to point that you are forces to retreat to prevent a rout.
I will stick my points against your infantry support mechs:
1. Too slow to react to anything
2. Quad is limited vs a biped
3. Too heavy to be effective
4. To costly to be effective
5. A lighter mech to medium mech would be better for this and allow for a dual role or better still a set of vehicles would be much better.
6. The high tech wonder toys can be countered by other wonder toys.
7. Familiarity takes the edge away from your toys and grand idea.
8. Artillery will separate your BA from the mechs as will terrain.
9. Limited weapon load out prevents this mech from fully supporting the battlearmor
10. Lack of jump jets further hinders the mech ability to be supportive of it's charges.
I am sure you will have counter points to all of these and tell us again how great your mechs is. My question now becomes have you play tested this against actual people ON THE TABLE TOP or solely through MegaMek?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 07:06 AM
172.56.9.17
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Quote:
If it were innersphere, it would make a good c3 master carrier.
No it would not because it is not permitted to use C3 at all.
Quote:
Time to nitpick donkey's arguements.
Quote:
"My mech that I posted has two Clan Long Range Large Lasers with targeting computers. They out range the Clan Large Pulse Lasers. And with my grater speed I can keep my mech out of range of your LPL but within range of my ERLL. Granted I wont have that much of a chance to hit your mech but if I keep attacking at some point I will get enough hits to bring it down."
With Extreme Range Rules, you outrange me by 2(IIRC). And at +3 VSS +6 Extreme Range +1 likely prone quad in one of the worst case scenarios adding up to a +10 you won't hit at all, not just not having much of a chance.
Both players would have to agree to extreme range rules and I would not. There goes that idea out the window.
Quote:
Quote:
"I could also start off with first targeting the Elementals with my ERLL wipe them out to a man and then risk your LPLs and come in short range of my six MPLs My -3 with pulse lasers and targeting computers will nullify your +3 for the Void Signature System and movement of zero. With my bonus for movement and you getting no bonus for your lack of mobility I will still have the advantage not including me constantly jumping to your rear ark where I can target your week rear armor and your guns not able to target me what so ever do to head weapons can only fire to the front ark."
And the elementals(among other armor) hide behind the Nephilidae like they are supposed to do and you can't get to them without going around, which just doesn't help your case as I already have shown. You can try to go through as well, but that's certainly suicide.
On that case I would snipe your mech until it was out of action. then take care of the infantry.
Quote:
Quote:
"I do four points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with my MPL. Your rear center torso armor can only take four hits before I am getting chances at crits on your cockpit. Ever time I hit your mech I have 7 out of 36 chance of hitting your center torso. That means if all my 6 lasers hit I am almost guaranteed one hit on your center torso."
You deal 3 and a half points of damage to hardened armor for each hit with your MPL. It's not rounded. For halves you cross out half a circle of an armor point. So that is going to take 1 more than 4.
You cant make up your own rules, hardened armor rounds fractions up there is no taking half a point of damage.
Quote:
Quote:
"If I understand Reinforced Internal stretcher correctly It will take 12 hits to your rear center torso before I destroy all of your armor and Internal stretcher but with a 19.5% chance of hitting your rear center torso with ever shot that hit it should not take all that long."
Many, many turns that require you to not get killed by my comrades. And that's if I want to react to your flanking threat. I don't have to and may not necessarily want to.
Ignoring a threat is suicide. I could use flanking to attack your other units if I consider them of any threat.
Quote:
Quote:
"Also remember every time you use movement of two your running. You have a +2 to hit me for running and I have no plus modifier to hit you because you have not traveled far enough to create a bonus modifier for distance and with a movement of one or two your Void Signature System bonus goes from +3 to +2 but my MPLs still have a -3."
That assumes you don't make a mistake or can avoid me simply moving backwards or side stepping a bit and mule kicking you in the knee. Assuming I bother to break position in my heavy woods prone or my hill I'm hull downed in and move at all. The Nephilidae is really durable and if there's anyone behind it I can depend on them to remove the flanker.
That assumes that you have woods to hide in. I still could just call in a report of your mech and infantry and wait for artillery support to arrive do deal with your slow mech. Or if your somewhere that can be ignored I could just move on to the next target and let others know of your position. In a planetary scale war your of little threat because you just cant get anywhere unless your going to take days to travel to the next town over. Your only option of movement is by drop ship and no navy is going to be willing to risk an extremely valuable dropship on one reinforced lance/star. And if they do my aerospace fighters can try to down your dropship.
Quote:
I love it when people try to lecture me and end up getting their beginning statement wrong. 2 is walking. There is no running speed on this mech; the hardened armor removes the 1 running MP it would have had. There is a sprinting speed of 3 with an extra rule though, so technically it can turn on a dime to present you it's front arc. It won't be able to shoot but it buys the mech much needed time for it's aircraft/infantry/tanks/whatever to bail it out. And then this is all dependant that the terrain happens to work out in your favor to work at all, even without supporting assets.
Check the rules again when there are two options the worse case is always in affect. So when you move 2 your running.
Quote:
If you are assuming they are all somehow dead,
1.It's a strategy failure on the commander's fault of keeping the escortees alive, not the nephilidae
2.Nothing short of a dropship would make it out alive in the first place, not like the Nephilidae is special for dying in such a circumstance.
Man I would love you to be my enemy!!! Your willing to let major assets like a battlemech to be destroyed for something of little to no strategic or tactical value as infantry.
Now if you where under my command I would most likely have you either shot for gross incompetence or demoted to a privet where you would not be a threat to my war plans by getting units destroyed for no strategic gain.
Quote:
Quote:
"The only chance you really have is to get initiative for a round and get two lucky head shots. If I think that I don't have that good of a chance to keep the initiative so I can stay in your rear ark I can still stay from 21 to 25 hexes distance and snipe at your armor until I defeat you where you can't shot back since I am out of range of your LPL."
It'll have to be from 29 or 30 WITH NO INTERVENING TERRAIN with extreme range rules which I always use. Even without them, the NO INTERVENING TERRAIN part is very very very very VERY important. That's the thing with trying to disprove the design with theoretical situations, they seem to be limited to test tube environments.
Again your assuming that I would permit you to use extreme range rules. I would not! Optional rules are just that where all players must agree to them or they are not used.
A design that is VERY limited in its useful role when taken out of its specialized environment is of little value.
I can just bypass your unit and worry about it some other day. Or just defeat the rest of your army and just wait for your unit to be ordered to surrender.
Quote:
Which, as mentioned before but apparently discarded, I have tested them without such a test tub environment and they are not quite the crap you make them out to be at all.
Oh I am sure you tested it where you had all of your required special requirements where your design held all the advantages.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/19/14 01:01 PM
24.30.128.72
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I can see this mech is mislabled for what it does. It is not infantry support, but has infantry supporting it. It is a slow assault mech with a good ecm package.
From what it sounds like, retry has a rtc based around the mech. If someone tries to bring in a lance of mechs against this, I can see why they tend to fail.
Yes, artillery would do wonders to remove armor off the mech and remove it's helpers.
Fighter strikes would do the same. Firebombing it would do the same.
That could be said with alot of units.
I get the feeling he faces mechs only when playing. Playing with battle armor and slow units bogs down the game before you get into combat range. It is interesting that he says he headcapped an atlas on turn one. I'm guessing his unit was ambushing it. Or they played on a single board.
Now the difference between a sprint and a run is what? This is abusing the can always move on hex rule. Until this mech I have not heard of sprinting outside of masc rules. If there is not run, then 2 is your max move period.
It is a electronic warfare machine.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 03:01 PM
172.56.17.210
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You are not kidding when you say SLOW assault. The defender would have days from its first spotted until it gets anywhere near its target. Even with all the electronic counter measures in the galaxy you cant hide the dust cloud that a combined arms company creates when its moving. And how slow this thing moves you will have a good long warning of its coming.
The only place I can see this thing of any constructive use is in city fighting where the other force will not use air strikes or artillery do to not wanting to destroy the city in the proses of destroying the mech and its infantry.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 03:10 PM
72.214.204.166
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No, it supports the infantry with AECM coverage and BHPs plus a light weapon load useful for many situations.
Sprinting is an alternative option, kind of like MASC, but you cannot fire at all, enemies targeting you get a slight TH bonus, and PSRs become more brutal.
The enemy often has BA but not as many as me, normally.
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Retry
02/19/14 03:16 PM
72.214.204.166
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Hardened Armor
R&D Start Date: 3045 (Federated Commonwealth), 3057 (Clan Ghost Bear)
Prototype design and Production: 3047 (Federated Commonwealth), 3061 (Clan Ghost Bear)
Hardened Armor uses thicker, overlapping plates to enhance a unit’s protection at the cost of flexibility. Though hardly a novel concept, production-quality Hardened Armor that consistently enhances protection and minimizes its negative effect on unit mobility remains an elusive goal for most Inner Sphere manufacturers.
Game Rules
Rules Level: Experimental
Available To: BM, IM, CV
Tech Base (ratings): Both (D/X-X-F)
Game Rules
Each point of Hardened Armor can sustain two points of damage. To reflect this, when marking damage offon a location protected by this
armor type, draw a single slash through the armor bubble for the first point of damage sustained, and a second slash, making an "X" (or block the armor
bubble out entirely) after the second point (at which point any remaining damage affects the internal structure normally, unless any special rules apply).
So what's that you were saying about making up my own rules again?
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ghostrider
02/19/14 06:11 PM
24.30.128.72
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Didn't say you were making them up. I said I have not heard of the ones you referred to.
I don't remember if the thunder missile is in the mechcommander game only, but that is something that would cause havoc with units as well.
I have noticed a lack of jump infantry when saying this is an infantry support unit. I know elemental armor can move 3, but not sure about other forms of battle armor.
Since jump infantry is, well, infantry, and this unit can not keep up with them, the support portion of it is in question, but that's a definition problem, not a problem with using the mech as such.
I had not seen the hardened armor before the clans came, which makes me think this is a new attempt to balance the game out. When did they introduce the reinforced internal structure? or the cloaking device?
And for those who are in touch with the game designers... When will they have full shield or forcefields to defend the units?
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Retry
02/19/14 06:22 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
You cant make up your own rules, hardened armor rounds fractions up there is no taking half a point of damage.
I was referring to this post of Donkey's actually.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 06:31 PM
172.56.17.210
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That is not the rule in Maximum tech for hardened armor. In Maximum tech it said all damage is rounded up to a hole number of armor that is damaged. Also I saw nothing new here on the wiki to state anything has changed.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 06:34 PM
67.239.109.174
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A bit dated eh?
You may need more substance than that when you accuse me of making up my own rules.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 06:39 PM
24.30.128.72
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from what I can see the first 2 points are absorbed by the hardened armor, then it takes damage normally.
Now if that is the whole definition for the hardened armor, then it leave the question, is that per hit, per volley, or for the whole game?
I can see both sides of this one. It could be per hit, with the next weapon starting out with 2 points going to the first damage, but then how would you tell 2 medium lasers hitting the same area vs a single large laser or ppc hit?
If this is per damage cluster like lrms hitting it, then you have issues there as well. I'm sure if you only do one point, it counts as 1 armor plate, and not 1/2 of one. Having the lrms split into groups of 5, if two or more groups hit the same location, does it restart the damage of 2 points for the first armor point?
I would also think it does not hold the 1/2 armor plate for the next hit.
This is where people can argue what is the correct version.
I would say honestly, that if you have one type of ecm/stealth system on a vehicle, a second kind would not function, unless stated otherwise. But that is my take of it. Others will use house rules to solve issues that come up like this.
The Mech itself works. I dislike some of the wider interpretations of the rules, but each player uses what they want, and leaves out what they don't like.
Just like the hvac.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 06:48 PM
172.56.17.210
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Retry as I have told others if you want to buy me every battletech book out there so I am up on all of the current rules your more than free to do so. As for my self I have dumped WAY to much money into game books already.
Ghostrider hardened armor absorbs two points of damage for each armor point lost.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 06:52 PM
67.239.109.174
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No, hardened armor halves all damage from any weapon source. A hit that would deal 2 damage would take off 1 "armor point". A hit that would deal 200 damage would deal 100 "armor points". A hit of 5 results in 2 armor points being crossed out and another one half crossed out.
Otherwise it would be a heavier not-as-cool Ferro-Lamellor armor, and I would use that instead and use the spare tonnage to do something else with it.
Technically no, it can't use the Nova CEWs with the other stuff active. But it's in a safer place than the other 2 systems so it's there as backup. That and you can use it's C3 effect with the VSS off, and only with it off.
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Retry
02/19/14 06:58 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Retry as I have told others if you want to buy me every battletech book out there so I am up on all of the current rules your more than free to do so. As for my self I have dumped WAY to much money into game books already.
Ghostrider hardened armor absorbs two points of damage for each armor point lost.
If you aren't even going to browse around the internet through the Mech Factory site to see what the armors and equipment do I suggest you not cry liar.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/14 07:54 PM
172.56.17.210
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Oh yea like I will wast months looking up some out of the way website for something of little importance to see if there was some minor change.
Also you don't have a good track record for getting things right. You have made claims that you could not prove in the rules.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/19/14 08:07 PM
67.239.109.174
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Right, a website on the first page is sooo obscure.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 08:45 PM
24.30.128.72
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I guess retry's group plays with spys and such. Having a mech like this listed as an infantry support mech would mean people would have the wrong idea of what they are facing.
Now with the back up ecm systems, I would think it would have been better to upgrade elsewhere instead of having the dual systems. Speed is nice, but it isn't THAT big of a deal. The annihilator mech is a 2/3. Granted the higher top end speed and shoot is nice. Depending on if you drop the ecm for a round, you could put on a tag to call in artillery including arrow IV. Maybe some other weapons.
Since you say they are normally deployed in 3's, this would actually make more sense having varients that do have other things. Simply upgrading to an erppc or even a gauss rifle works. Lrms fitted with the tag missles could indirect fire things.
I don't know if clans have c3's be even using that while having other mechs in the system using their stuff to help hide the one spotting.
A version that provides anti air. The infantry support seems to be the hang up on it.
Just some suggestions.
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Karagin
02/19/14 10:38 PM
70.118.139.48
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The website IS NOT OFFICIAL. Retry just as your sole source of BT aka MegaMek IS NOT OFFICIAL either. I am starting to think Retry ONLY plays via MegaMek and the mostly against the computer. But that is a guess.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Retry
02/19/14 11:01 PM
67.239.109.174
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Megamek, but not against the CPU.
I am starting to think Karagin has a feeling of superiority that he plays offline on boards with other people face to face. But that is just a guess.
Of course it's easier for you to say "not official" than to realize regardless it is correct as it is taking it's information from an official source. Yes, I did check an PDF copy of the rulebook anyways.
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Karagin
02/19/14 11:33 PM
70.118.139.48
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Superiority? Wow okay Retry. Are the site and MegaMek sanctioned by CGL? Are the owned by CGL? The answer is NO. So they are NOT official and thus can not be taken as a valid source. The only valid source are the rule books not a web site since the web site is NOT an official CGL run site. Sorry but in this case Retry it is you who are in the wrong.
Glad you did check the rulebook, how about sticking to the rule book and leave the non-official sites and things like Megamek out of it. And given that Battletech is a table top game it would be best if you actually tested your ideas via that medium thus ruling out any element of someone claiming the program had errors or wasn't updated etc...the board game is straight forward and with all players agreeing to what is in play prior to start and a better way to test things, IMVHO. I guess that is not something you are willing to do Retry?
I still think the design is to limited in what it can do effectively and the lack of secondary weapons to deal with things is a design flaw that can be used against it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 11:36 PM
24.30.128.72
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I learned something. I thought megamek was just a design program. I didn't know you could actually play battle tech, or something close to it.
Just to play, even against a computer would be ok.
Actually playing face to face wouldn't make you feel superior. Being able to take out good players from a disadvantaged position might. Playing game after game with direwolves against urban mechs in the open shouldn't make you feel superior. Now if you took those urban mechs and beat the direwolves consistantly, then you have a right.
I am on the side of this mech pushing the spirit of the rules, BUT it is the group that should decide wiether to let it in their game or not. This mech sounds like the problem one of the other people on sarna had. Players coming up with something that is extremely difficult to beat without doing the same things. He came up with a whole new system to challenge his players without throwing the mega tech units at his players.
Coming up with a good unit is a players job. There is a point when it becomes to easy to play against normal opponents. Then you have to keep throwing the impossible units at them just to get on par.
As much as you dislike this mech, it is the rest of the battlegroup that keeps it alive. Wipe out the rest then focus on the unit that can't get away. A star with small lasers do 15 points of damage per hit. Normal infantry can do 7 with rifles. They can swarm and such, but people ignore them to hit the mech.
The mech isn't invincible, and will fall quickly without the backup. Yes the hardened armor is a pain, but then again, the designers should never have put it in the game. Being experimental, along with a few other things, should show it to be overpowering.
No one has said you could not use faster units with hardened armor to take it down.
Then again, no one says you have to even face it.
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Retry
02/19/14 11:44 PM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
Superiority? Wow okay Retry. Are the site and MegaMek sanctioned by CGL? Are the owned by CGL? The answer is NO.
Yep, definitely a master-race thing going on here.
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Karagin
02/19/14 11:46 PM
70.118.139.48
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All true Ghostrider all true. Each group plays differently. And the only one who is resorting to name calling is Retry. We have all given our opinions and reasons as to WHY the mech fails at the role Retry wants it to perform. And he has tried to defend his design, just like all of us have for our own stuff.
The group who is playing is the key, IF they do not want to allow experimental tech then this mech isn't going to get used. Just like some may not allow Clan tech in their game but will allow all of the non-experimental Inner Sphere stuff, seen several groups like that. Others allow everything as long as it's in an OFFICIAL rule book or sourcebook for Battletech. Then groups like mine that allow home tech stuff in as long as all are in agreement, which is the part of the game that allow all of us to have fun.
I don't see this mech or the concept that Retry is using working very well against a player that knows what they are doing, I see it working great against new players or those who don't fully understand that game isn't about run out to middle of the field and bash each other like rock'em sock'em robots.
And who is to stay the other side's infantry aren't battlearmored themselves or Protomechs or infantry with support weapons etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
02/19/14 11:53 PM
24.30.128.72
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I believe that was brought up in an earlier post. Retry said no one uses as much battle armor as he does. That looks to be the key here. Rushing into close range with this unit means you have like a regiment of units standing on top of each other firing on you as you pound the mech.
I also said the unit should not be considered infantry support. It is more like an ew unit.
Now I don't know how megamek takes on units.
Does it fire at the closest thing to it?
Does it look for the best to hit?
Does it have the coding needed to determine the most dangerous unit on the field?
The wiki says the ai is not anywhere near what it should be. That is only a problem if they run against ai.
And honestly, a lance of mechs should fall to a regiment of battle armor.
How many times have you tested just the mech?
Yes it is designed to be part of a unit, but I would like the honest results of mech on mech only.
Then the battle armor on the same mechs.
I am betting that the ba is the key here.
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Retry
02/19/14 11:59 PM
67.239.109.174
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In my experience tabletop games that are even less complex than Battletech tend to have more errors when playing on the tabletop. In fact I only bothered with battletech when I learned of Megamek...
I don't have to ask around if people want to play a game, which I just know I would be unsuccessful and don't want to interfere with their business in the first place. And then I'd have to memorize weapon ranges and damages, else I prolong the game further. Then I have to manage all those charts and if I want to use double blind, which I do, **** gets further complicated. And that's just breaching the surface.
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Retry
02/20/14 12:01 AM
67.239.109.174
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Quote:
I believe that was brought up in an earlier post. Retry said no one uses as much battle armor as he does. That looks to be the key here. Rushing into close range with this unit means you have like a regiment of units standing on top of each other firing on you as you pound the mech.
I also said the unit should not be considered infantry support. It is more like an ew unit.
Now I don't know how megamek takes on units.
Does it fire at the closest thing to it?
Does it look for the best to hit?
Does it have the coding needed to determine the most dangerous unit on the field?
The wiki says the ai is not anywhere near what it should be. That is only a problem if they run against ai.
And honestly, a lance of mechs should fall to a regiment of battle armor.
How many times have you tested just the mech?
Yes it is designed to be part of a unit, but I would like the honest results of mech on mech only.
Then the battle armor on the same mechs.
I am betting that the ba is the key here.
As I said it primarily supports it's infantry with the EW equipment.
And I've played plenty of games w/o AI.
I do not have results for a mech on mech confrontation.
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Retry
02/20/14 12:08 AM
67.239.109.174
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Last I checked I haven't name called at all, just guessed he has a feeling of superiority, which is based on the fact that he won't accept anything I say because I don't happen to have a handy copy of a rulebook.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/20/14 12:11 AM
208.54.4.156
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Quote:
I don't know if clans have c3's be even using that while having other mechs in the system using their stuff to help hide the one spotting.
It does not matter if clans have C3 units or not. C3 units "CAN NOT" be on a mech that has the void system. The rules specifically state that a unit that has a void system may not have a C3 unit among other things its forbidden to mount.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/20/14 12:14 AM
24.30.128.72
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sorry. I thought they couldn't USE it when the void system is on. Thanks for the update.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/20/14 10:36 AM
206.29.182.153
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A 'Mech with Void Signature System may not mount a Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, Null Signature System, or Stealth Armor. Any Satellite Uplink systems, Targeting Computers or C3 equipment cannot be mounted either.
I did a small edit, I replaced "this system" with "Void Signature System" form what is posted on the wiki for the reason of ease of reading.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
02/23/14 04:07 PM
24.30.128.72
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No, hardened armor halves all damage from any weapon source. A hit that would deal 2 damage would take off 1 "armor point". A hit that would deal 200 damage would deal 100 "armor points". A hit of 5 results in 2 armor points being crossed out and another one half crossed out.
1 ton of Hardened Armor can absorb only the same amount of damage as 1 ton standard armor, plus crit bonuses and with the addition of tandem charge warheads dealing damage as normal and -1 running MP for mechs... And for mechs, it increases the target PSR roll making them more difficult to stay upright, which will often offset the additional durability given by hardened armor for bipeds.
So which is correct?
Does hardened armor half all damage or does it absorb the same amount of damage before failing?
As I said before. Hardened armor should never have been added into the game. It is too unbalacing.
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Retry
02/23/14 04:11 PM
67.239.109.174
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Both are correct. Hardened armor halves all damage, so 1 point of hardened armor is approxtimately equal to 2 points of standard armor.
However, 1 ton of hardened armor yields 8 points. 1 ton of standard armor yields 16 points. With the 8 points hardened armor being like 16 points standard armor, the single ton of hardened armor will provide similar protection to 1 ton standard armor.
Hardened armor basically, among other effects, lets you armor yourself somewhat over your normal maximum.
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Cray
02/23/14 04:17 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
As I said before. Hardened armor should never have been added into the game. It is too unbalacing.
The only thing hardened armor does is double the amount of armor a 'Mech can carry for twice the armor tonnage.
If you have the tonnage to do that, then more power to you. It's pointless on vehicles unless you're really, really scared of critical hits and AP munitions.
The handful of canon designs with hardened armor are quite lightly armed because they've lost so much tonnage to armor. They have impaired running speeds and a +1 piloting penalty to any piloting roll.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
02/23/14 06:15 PM
24.30.128.72
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I didn't see anywhere that it was said that hardened armor is twice the weight of normal armor, ie only 8 points per ton.
When stating things like that, remember not everyone has all the rules. It sounded like you got the equivalent 32 points of armor for a ton.
With the new information it does balance some. If it was the standard amount of armor, +1 piloting and missing 1 speed point would be a no brainer.
Hell, now having an axe wielder with nothing other then speed, armor and axe makes sense.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/14 07:05 PM
172.56.33.62
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If you got 32 points per ton everyone would have hardened armor.
I disagree about the just having an axe. All one has to do is to keep one hex between you and them and your dead.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Retry
02/23/14 07:31 PM
67.239.109.174
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Yeah, there is a reason not everyone and their dog has hardened armor.
It's also the same reason many people find the armament to be pathetic.
I find it to be quite light, but I find it workable myself.
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ghostrider
02/23/14 07:34 PM
24.30.128.72
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you much be lucky donkey. I have yet been able to win every initiative in every round. Keeping one hex when the enemy has speed and you have to move first does present a problem. But that is more circumstance.
I personally think every unit should have a ranged weapon.
The hardened armor just makes it even more of an option.
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