Karagin
02/19/14 11:33 PM
70.118.139.48
|
Superiority? Wow okay Retry. Are the site and MegaMek sanctioned by CGL? Are the owned by CGL? The answer is NO. So they are NOT official and thus can not be taken as a valid source. The only valid source are the rule books not a web site since the web site is NOT an official CGL run site. Sorry but in this case Retry it is you who are in the wrong.
Glad you did check the rulebook, how about sticking to the rule book and leave the non-official sites and things like Megamek out of it. And given that Battletech is a table top game it would be best if you actually tested your ideas via that medium thus ruling out any element of someone claiming the program had errors or wasn't updated etc...the board game is straight forward and with all players agreeing to what is in play prior to start and a better way to test things, IMVHO. I guess that is not something you are willing to do Retry?
I still think the design is to limited in what it can do effectively and the lack of secondary weapons to deal with things is a design flaw that can be used against it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/19/14 11:36 PM
24.30.128.72
|
I learned something. I thought megamek was just a design program. I didn't know you could actually play battle tech, or something close to it.
Just to play, even against a computer would be ok.
Actually playing face to face wouldn't make you feel superior. Being able to take out good players from a disadvantaged position might. Playing game after game with direwolves against urban mechs in the open shouldn't make you feel superior. Now if you took those urban mechs and beat the direwolves consistantly, then you have a right.
I am on the side of this mech pushing the spirit of the rules, BUT it is the group that should decide wiether to let it in their game or not. This mech sounds like the problem one of the other people on sarna had. Players coming up with something that is extremely difficult to beat without doing the same things. He came up with a whole new system to challenge his players without throwing the mega tech units at his players.
Coming up with a good unit is a players job. There is a point when it becomes to easy to play against normal opponents. Then you have to keep throwing the impossible units at them just to get on par.
As much as you dislike this mech, it is the rest of the battlegroup that keeps it alive. Wipe out the rest then focus on the unit that can't get away. A star with small lasers do 15 points of damage per hit. Normal infantry can do 7 with rifles. They can swarm and such, but people ignore them to hit the mech.
The mech isn't invincible, and will fall quickly without the backup. Yes the hardened armor is a pain, but then again, the designers should never have put it in the game. Being experimental, along with a few other things, should show it to be overpowering.
No one has said you could not use faster units with hardened armor to take it down.
Then again, no one says you have to even face it.
|
Retry
02/19/14 11:44 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Quote:
Superiority? Wow okay Retry. Are the site and MegaMek sanctioned by CGL? Are the owned by CGL? The answer is NO.
Yep, definitely a master-race thing going on here.
|
Karagin
02/19/14 11:46 PM
70.118.139.48
|
All true Ghostrider all true. Each group plays differently. And the only one who is resorting to name calling is Retry. We have all given our opinions and reasons as to WHY the mech fails at the role Retry wants it to perform. And he has tried to defend his design, just like all of us have for our own stuff.
The group who is playing is the key, IF they do not want to allow experimental tech then this mech isn't going to get used. Just like some may not allow Clan tech in their game but will allow all of the non-experimental Inner Sphere stuff, seen several groups like that. Others allow everything as long as it's in an OFFICIAL rule book or sourcebook for Battletech. Then groups like mine that allow home tech stuff in as long as all are in agreement, which is the part of the game that allow all of us to have fun.
I don't see this mech or the concept that Retry is using working very well against a player that knows what they are doing, I see it working great against new players or those who don't fully understand that game isn't about run out to middle of the field and bash each other like rock'em sock'em robots.
And who is to stay the other side's infantry aren't battlearmored themselves or Protomechs or infantry with support weapons etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
ghostrider
02/19/14 11:53 PM
24.30.128.72
|
I believe that was brought up in an earlier post. Retry said no one uses as much battle armor as he does. That looks to be the key here. Rushing into close range with this unit means you have like a regiment of units standing on top of each other firing on you as you pound the mech.
I also said the unit should not be considered infantry support. It is more like an ew unit.
Now I don't know how megamek takes on units.
Does it fire at the closest thing to it?
Does it look for the best to hit?
Does it have the coding needed to determine the most dangerous unit on the field?
The wiki says the ai is not anywhere near what it should be. That is only a problem if they run against ai.
And honestly, a lance of mechs should fall to a regiment of battle armor.
How many times have you tested just the mech?
Yes it is designed to be part of a unit, but I would like the honest results of mech on mech only.
Then the battle armor on the same mechs.
I am betting that the ba is the key here.
|
Retry
02/19/14 11:59 PM
67.239.109.174
|
In my experience tabletop games that are even less complex than Battletech tend to have more errors when playing on the tabletop. In fact I only bothered with battletech when I learned of Megamek...
I don't have to ask around if people want to play a game, which I just know I would be unsuccessful and don't want to interfere with their business in the first place. And then I'd have to memorize weapon ranges and damages, else I prolong the game further. Then I have to manage all those charts and if I want to use double blind, which I do, **** gets further complicated. And that's just breaching the surface.
|
Retry
02/20/14 12:01 AM
67.239.109.174
|
Quote:
I believe that was brought up in an earlier post. Retry said no one uses as much battle armor as he does. That looks to be the key here. Rushing into close range with this unit means you have like a regiment of units standing on top of each other firing on you as you pound the mech.
I also said the unit should not be considered infantry support. It is more like an ew unit.
Now I don't know how megamek takes on units.
Does it fire at the closest thing to it?
Does it look for the best to hit?
Does it have the coding needed to determine the most dangerous unit on the field?
The wiki says the ai is not anywhere near what it should be. That is only a problem if they run against ai.
And honestly, a lance of mechs should fall to a regiment of battle armor.
How many times have you tested just the mech?
Yes it is designed to be part of a unit, but I would like the honest results of mech on mech only.
Then the battle armor on the same mechs.
I am betting that the ba is the key here.
As I said it primarily supports it's infantry with the EW equipment.
And I've played plenty of games w/o AI.
I do not have results for a mech on mech confrontation.
|
Retry
02/20/14 12:08 AM
67.239.109.174
|
Last I checked I haven't name called at all, just guessed he has a feeling of superiority, which is based on the fact that he won't accept anything I say because I don't happen to have a handy copy of a rulebook.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/20/14 12:11 AM
208.54.4.156
|
Quote:
I don't know if clans have c3's be even using that while having other mechs in the system using their stuff to help hide the one spotting.
It does not matter if clans have C3 units or not. C3 units "CAN NOT" be on a mech that has the void system. The rules specifically state that a unit that has a void system may not have a C3 unit among other things its forbidden to mount.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/20/14 12:14 AM
24.30.128.72
|
sorry. I thought they couldn't USE it when the void system is on. Thanks for the update.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/20/14 10:36 AM
206.29.182.153
|
A 'Mech with Void Signature System may not mount a Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, Null Signature System, or Stealth Armor. Any Satellite Uplink systems, Targeting Computers or C3 equipment cannot be mounted either.
I did a small edit, I replaced "this system" with "Void Signature System" form what is posted on the wiki for the reason of ease of reading.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 04:07 PM
24.30.128.72
|
No, hardened armor halves all damage from any weapon source. A hit that would deal 2 damage would take off 1 "armor point". A hit that would deal 200 damage would deal 100 "armor points". A hit of 5 results in 2 armor points being crossed out and another one half crossed out.
1 ton of Hardened Armor can absorb only the same amount of damage as 1 ton standard armor, plus crit bonuses and with the addition of tandem charge warheads dealing damage as normal and -1 running MP for mechs... And for mechs, it increases the target PSR roll making them more difficult to stay upright, which will often offset the additional durability given by hardened armor for bipeds.
So which is correct?
Does hardened armor half all damage or does it absorb the same amount of damage before failing?
As I said before. Hardened armor should never have been added into the game. It is too unbalacing.
|
Retry
02/23/14 04:11 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Both are correct. Hardened armor halves all damage, so 1 point of hardened armor is approxtimately equal to 2 points of standard armor.
However, 1 ton of hardened armor yields 8 points. 1 ton of standard armor yields 16 points. With the 8 points hardened armor being like 16 points standard armor, the single ton of hardened armor will provide similar protection to 1 ton standard armor.
Hardened armor basically, among other effects, lets you armor yourself somewhat over your normal maximum.
|
Cray
02/23/14 04:17 PM
71.47.122.85
|
Quote:
As I said before. Hardened armor should never have been added into the game. It is too unbalacing.
The only thing hardened armor does is double the amount of armor a 'Mech can carry for twice the armor tonnage.
If you have the tonnage to do that, then more power to you. It's pointless on vehicles unless you're really, really scared of critical hits and AP munitions.
The handful of canon designs with hardened armor are quite lightly armed because they've lost so much tonnage to armor. They have impaired running speeds and a +1 piloting penalty to any piloting roll.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 06:15 PM
24.30.128.72
|
I didn't see anywhere that it was said that hardened armor is twice the weight of normal armor, ie only 8 points per ton.
When stating things like that, remember not everyone has all the rules. It sounded like you got the equivalent 32 points of armor for a ton.
With the new information it does balance some. If it was the standard amount of armor, +1 piloting and missing 1 speed point would be a no brainer.
Hell, now having an axe wielder with nothing other then speed, armor and axe makes sense.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/23/14 07:05 PM
172.56.33.62
|
If you got 32 points per ton everyone would have hardened armor.
I disagree about the just having an axe. All one has to do is to keep one hex between you and them and your dead.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
Retry
02/23/14 07:31 PM
67.239.109.174
|
Yeah, there is a reason not everyone and their dog has hardened armor.
It's also the same reason many people find the armament to be pathetic.
I find it to be quite light, but I find it workable myself.
|
ghostrider
02/23/14 07:34 PM
24.30.128.72
|
you much be lucky donkey. I have yet been able to win every initiative in every round. Keeping one hex when the enemy has speed and you have to move first does present a problem. But that is more circumstance.
I personally think every unit should have a ranged weapon.
The hardened armor just makes it even more of an option.
|