Newtype
12/05/08 01:56 PM
75.52.182.110
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Quite curious. Task Force Serpent personnel probably would have taken less casualties had they use smoke missiles for concealment. For that matter the words "Clan Smoke Jaguar" has the word smoke so why didn't Clan Smoke Jaguar units use smoke missiles since they were on the defensive?
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/05/08 04:20 PM
205.202.120.139
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There' a clan. Of course they would not.
As for Task Force Serpent, don't think that just because it said they didn't use them specifically doesn't mean that they didn't. Of course, since smoke launchers are only one-shot and provide little tactical value, it is easy to see why they wouldn't.
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Cray
12/06/08 04:30 PM
68.205.198.74
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Quote:
Quite curious. Task Force Serpent personnel probably would have taken less casualties had they use smoke missiles for concealment. For that matter the words "Clan Smoke Jaguar" has the word smoke so why didn't Clan Smoke Jaguar units use smoke missiles since they were on the defensive?
Dude. HeroChip. What is it with you and smoke? Every new handle you invent, you come back to smoke and concealment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Newtype
12/07/08 11:45 AM
75.52.182.110
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Smoke missiles can be repeatedly launched from the same launcher. It would have made more sense for TSF personnel to have used them to conceal movements while using spotting drones to enable TSF weapons to shoot through smoke.
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Lafeel
12/07/08 12:29 PM
157.157.75.183
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Have you ever, perchance, heard of that wonderfull invention called a "active probe"? Sees through smoke like it wasn't there.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/07/08 05:51 PM
123.2.140.247
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Not to mention 'spotting drones' do NOT exist in Btech....
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Frabby
12/08/08 10:22 AM
87.164.217.31
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Quote:
Not to mention 'spotting drones' do NOT exist in Btech....
Umm... Boomerang spotter plane? Although I admit that's somewhat besides the point.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/08/08 11:16 AM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
Not to mention 'spotting drones' do NOT exist in Btech....
Well, in a broad sense, Narc and iNarc launchers could be used for their signals (I would think that iNarc could have "spotter" pods...) but only if a unit is tagged and cannot sweep it off, i. e. a quad.
There are newer C3 pods in TacOps, however they were made after the annihilation of Clan Smoke Jaguar.
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Cray
12/08/08 11:38 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
Not to mention 'spotting drones' do NOT exist in Btech....
You can make spotting drones (or other types of drones) with MaxTech's or TacOp's rules for drones. Giving them TAG is a bonus; they're capable of serving as indirect fire spotters with or without extra equipment.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Kovax
12/08/08 12:16 PM
75.146.193.46
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There are other means of detection besides visible light, and Mechs are equipped with at least some of them. Smoke might offer limited concealment, making it harder to identify the exact unit type and predict behavior, but IR, Radar, and other means would still show exactly where they were.
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/08/08 03:04 PM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
There are other means of detection besides visible light, and Mechs are equipped with at least some of them. Smoke might offer limited concealment, making it harder to identify the exact unit type and predict behavior, but IR, Radar, and other means would still show exactly where they were.
Unless you have something akin to Chaff, which is full of both smoke, but also reflective metal for lasers and the odd ECM.
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Lafeel
12/08/08 03:14 PM
157.157.75.183
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Which is what TFS did use (in artillery shells), but you can only use those at a certain distance, otherwise you will screw up your own targeting systems just as much as the enemy's
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Zandel_Corrin
12/08/08 05:42 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
Umm... Boomerang spotter plane? Although I admit that's somewhat besides the point.
not a real good example both because it's shot out of the sky real quick and it's only to offer better visibility.... no real targeting equipment... more for scouting terrain...
but your right... it's besides the point.
to be honest i kind of think along the same lines as newtype anyway.... why didn't they use smoke? it's the best was to bring the jags (or any clans) into IS range.... LRM carriers with smoke rounds and I Swarm are deadly.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Lafeel
12/08/08 05:44 PM
157.157.75.183
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Because smoke rounds became obsolete when active probes were invented, simple as that.
And anything powerfull enough to jam a active probe is also powerfull enough to jam friendly targeting systems.
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Cray
12/09/08 08:30 AM
147.160.136.10
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Quote:
There are other means of detection besides visible light, and Mechs are equipped with at least some of them. Smoke might offer limited concealment, making it harder to identify the exact unit type and predict behavior, but IR, Radar, and other means would still show exactly where they were.
In BattleTech, mechs are equipped with an amazing array of advanced sensors that still leave them blinded by night and smoke. Per TacOps pg47 (and prior rule books), light smoke acts like light woods, while heavy smoke acts like heavy woods. In other words, you'll be unable to target anything with just a few hexes of smoke even if, realistically, radar and thermography would easily see through the smoke (or night.)
And real world, modern thermographic equipment would usually give a very clear, sharp picture of the target - identification wouldn't be too hard. But in BT? You're blind.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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GiovanniBlasini
12/09/08 04:33 PM
64.183.4.46
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See, I've always thought that the smoke rounds were so you could tell your enemy where to direct orbital bombardment. *shrug*
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Zandel_Corrin
12/09/08 05:38 PM
123.2.140.247
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ah lafeel what's the range on that probe again?
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Lafeel
12/09/08 06:19 PM
157.157.75.183
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Forget, but it must be at least 180 meters (six bt hexes)..
Plus, as Cray has already pointed out the rules about smoke aren't going to set any records for realism.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/09/08 10:21 PM
123.2.140.247
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that of course is the point i was going to make...
the probe might be able to see through smoke but by the time your within range of the probe your already where the IS commander wants you and all the time it took you to get there you got no shots off...
sure the IS forces didn't either but they stand a better chance of winning in close combat and with vehicles and infantry as support they will cruch you.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Prince_of_Darkness
12/10/08 12:20 PM
205.202.120.139
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Quote:
ah lafeel what's the range on that probe again?
4 hexes (120 meters, nowhere near real life standards).
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Lafeel
12/10/08 01:35 PM
157.157.75.183
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Quote:
that of course is the point i was going to make...
the probe might be able to see through smoke but by the time your within range of the probe your already where the IS commander wants you and all the time it took you to get there you got no shots off...
sure the IS forces didn't either but they stand a better chance of winning in close combat and with vehicles and infantry as support they will cruch you.
A lesson the clans are finally starting to learn nowadays.
Well, some of them at least. And one clan's known that all along (HH)
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Zandel_Corrin
12/10/08 06:09 PM
123.2.140.247
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Yeah but the others don't listen to the horses... there loss
I'd hate to see athenas in every clan.... duel gauss with targ comp... OUCH!
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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JR3282
12/10/08 06:26 PM
68.153.113.2
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Maybe they were fighting in a non-smoking section. lol
JR
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Lafeel
12/10/08 06:43 PM
157.157.75.183
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Quote:
Yeah but the others don't listen to the horses... there loss
I'd hate to see athenas in every clan.... duel gauss with targ comp... OUCH!
Neither do a lot of the great houses for that matter.
And never you mind the dual gauss, I have a quad gauss design I'd like to introduce you to, just to show you what that word means.  (oh sure, it's slow as a bloody Annihialator, but getting hit by that is going to hurt)
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GiovanniBlasini
12/10/08 08:40 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
Quote:
Quite curious. Task Force Serpent personnel probably would have taken less casualties had they use smoke missiles for concealment. For that matter the words "Clan Smoke Jaguar" has the word smoke so why didn't Clan Smoke Jaguar units use smoke missiles since they were on the defensive?
Dude. HeroChip. What is it with you and smoke? Every new handle you invent, you come back to smoke and concealment.
Where do you think his ideas all come from?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
Edited by GiovanniBlasini (12/10/08 08:41 PM)
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Zandel_Corrin
12/10/08 08:43 PM
123.2.140.247
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Quote:
And never you mind the dual gauss, I have a quad gauss design I'd like to introduce you to, just to show you what that word means. (oh sure, it's slow as a bloody Annihialator, but getting hit by that is going to hurt)
QUARD GAUSS?!?!?!
That's a lance of mechs dead at any range with a good pilot!
that's "I want my mommy!" material
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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GiovanniBlasini
12/10/08 09:09 PM
64.183.4.46
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Quote:
Quote:
And never you mind the dual gauss, I have a quad gauss design I'd like to introduce you to, just to show you what that word means. (oh sure, it's slow as a bloody Annihialator, but getting hit by that is going to hurt)
QUARD GAUSS?!?!?!
That's a lance of mechs dead at any range with a good pilot!
that's "I want my mommy!" material
That's not outside the realm of possibility for a slow Clan 'Mech: you're looking at 48 tons of weaponry before you introduce armor, engine, etc. And, yeah, "slow as an Annhilator", indeed....well, maybe not.
For Clan, you can easily pull this:
Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Thunder Hawk IIC
Tech: Clan / 3067
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 300 Fusion
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
4 Gauss Rifles
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Thunder Hawk IIC
Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 152 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 2 LT, 2 RT, 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Engine: 300 Fusion 6 19.00
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Gyro: 4 3.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 307 pts Ferro-Fibrous 7 16.00
(Armor Crit Loc: 1 HD, 1 LA, 1 RA, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 LL, 1 RL)
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 31 46
Center Torso (Rear): 16
L/R Side Torso: 21 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 17 34/34
L/R Leg: 21 42/42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle RA 1 48 12 18.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LA, 1 RA, 2 LT, 2 RT)
1 Gauss Rifle LA 1 6 12.00
1 Gauss Rifle RT 1 6 12.00
1 Gauss Rifle LT 1 6 12.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 4 75 100.00
Crits & Tons Left: 3 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 11,332,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,612
Cost per BV: 4,338.44
Weapon Value: 4,167 / 4,167 (Ratio = 1.60 / 1.60)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 44; MRDmg = 43; LRDmg = 28
BattleForce2: MP: 3, Armor/Structure: 8/8
Damage PB/M/L: 7/6/6, Overheat: 0
Class: MA; Point Value: 26
That's 3/5 movement, maximized armor, no pesky XL engine, and, amusingly, even single heat sinks, since, hey, how are you going to overheat, anyway?
For an Inner Sphere, version, yes, you end up as slow as snail snot with light armor, or XL with no armor, or going TW and still having no armor.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Lafeel
12/11/08 04:40 PM
157.157.75.183
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Mine might be slower, but it is better..In it's extremely narrowly defined role
Code:
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: King Monster mk2
Tech: Clan / 3067
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 100 tons
Chassis: Endo Steel
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Walking Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 32.4 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
2 Adv. Tact. Msl. 3s
4 Gauss Rifles
1 Medium Pulse Laser
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
No fluff, just my take on the Monster.
King Monster, aka Koenig Monster, is copyright to Studeo Nue and Shouji
Kawamory. (variant more appropriate to Macross)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: King Monster mk2
Mass: 100 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 152 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 4 LA, 3 RA)
Engine: 200 Fusion 6 8.50
Walking MP: 2
Running MP: 3
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 4 .00
(Heat Sink Loc: 1 LL, 1 RL)
Gyro: 4 2.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA R: Sh+UA+LA 14 .00
Armor Factor: 307 pts Standard 0 19.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 31 46
Center Torso (Rear): 16
L/R Side Torso: 21 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 10/10
L/R Arm: 17 34/34
L/R Leg: 21 42/42
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 3 RA 2 80 6 5.50
(Ammo Locations: 2 LA, 2 RA)
1 Adv. Tact. Msl. 3 LA 2 2 1.50
2 Gauss Rifles RT 2 40 17 29.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LA, 2 RA, 2 CT)
2 Gauss Rifles LT 2 12 24.00
1 Medium Pulse Laser HD 4 1 2.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 12 78 100.00
Crits & Tons Left: 0 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 10,116,666 C-Bills
Battle Value: 2,362
Cost per BV: 4,283.09
Weapon Value: 4,167 / 4,167 (Ratio = 1.76 / 1.76)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 67; MRDmg = 52; LRDmg = 28
BattleForce2: MP: 2, Armor/Structure: 8/8
Damage PB/M/L: 8/8/6, Overheat: 0
Class: MA; Point Value: 24
Oh and before you start calling me a munchkin, I have no intention of ever using this thing. It was my attempt to make a anime mech into a Battletech one, nothing more.
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Zandel_Corrin
12/11/08 05:38 PM
123.2.140.247
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I see no targ comps people!
It's not munchkin without targ comps!
kidding.... still gauss and targ comp = head shot all too often.
Galaxy Commander
Zandel Corrin
Night Dragon Clan
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Lafeel
12/11/08 06:00 PM
157.157.75.183
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With four gauss rifles I wouldn't need a stravag targeting computer. :P Plus it was hard enough to make a "realistic" Monster as is.
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