csadn
02/06/13 10:38 PM
69.30.99.182
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Am I alone in seeing the whole Jihad Era as a Gigantic Neon Middle Finger to any player who wants to run his own force his own way? I'm referring specifically to the "Mercs Are Evil", and "Mercs Are Getting Wiped Out Left And Right" memes which fill the era -- the ones which weren't squished by Deus Ex Machina's -- sorry, Devlin Stone's -- forces got squished by the toaster-worshippers -- sorry, Word of Blake.
I mention this, as I'm seeing more games which do not allow players any choice beyond "here are the factions you are permitted to play -- pick one". Given the ease with which players can now print out paper or cardstock playing pieces on computers; and the forthcoming capability to make minis; I see this as a sign that the gaming business is confronting the same problem traditional book publishing is with ebooks and PoD: Used to be, you did things their way, but not anymore.
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Col_Green
02/07/13 01:55 AM
99.9.128.106
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Sorry to say it but thankfully my GM of my group isn't using the DARK era writing...and he is modifing the timeline After 3065. No force has ever been able to do what the Jihad was suppost to accomplish. If anything I see the Clans re-unit under a Il-Khan and then push for Terra again this time NO hold bar style...Jihad nope don't care should have never happened IMHO.....just saying it left a bad taste in my mouth the whole W.o.B write up and I actually liked the idea of it all until teh Jihad writing... 
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Karagin
02/07/13 06:46 AM
72.178.85.122
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Things in the game setting have changed a lot from the original start of the game, where you could have your player group that had more freedom to a point, don't recall hearing about any player groups the conquered the Inner Sphere, and no there were no groups ganging up to wipe out mercs. You have the setting of the official background as a back drop which can be ignored or used. I have stated that for many who play the official back story is how they go trying to not stray out of that setting which fits to what your topic point is about. Others will say that no that is not the idea of things at all and your games don't have to follow the current settings etc...which is true as well to a point.
The local group of players either point of view works, BUT if you go to a gaming convention or interact on line you run into the folks who are all about the official stance or era, yes I know I have beat this horse to death before, plenty of topics here and else where about it, but thing is use what you want for what works for you.
The powers that be felt they needed to speed up the game, make changes that kept folks interested and control the arms race that was happening the game. I personally think they could have done a lot of the changes by not allowing the computer games to add things to the board. No new weapons, no new mechs etc...that would have stopped the so called arms race from getting out of hand. Then the rules, yes they are a bit odd in that they are dice heavy and slow. A short BT game can take a few hours if you are running more then two mechs per side, not very fun for the incoming players of today who want instant fun without a lot of mental thinking. So they tried to stream line the rules, not sure how they are doing on that since they copied the DD setup of core rule books after core rule books, but at least we haven't reached the Star Fleet Battles level of rule books yet...
Then the changes in business models of the companies that have owned BT as a property has led to the story line we have. Yes we keep hearing about how all of this was mapped out during FASAs last gasp of life back in the 90s, and there have been a few counter points to this by at least one of the authors, Keiths to name one, about how things were quite cut and dry as some of the current PTB and friends of these same claim. Then add in the big game changer, the internet as it became in the mid 90s. Things went from a small group on line to well everyone online with ideas and comments and thoughts and everything else about the game.
So my suggestion play how you want. Toss the Toasters and the silliness of the Jihad era completely if you want, or toss the parts that make no sense, like the nuking of Outreach, really the Dragoons were that big of a threat to WoB and their grand plans...or was it more of removing a group from the game that one or more of the PTB saw as out of hand a question that never got answered by the by. It's your game with your group, the rules and settings are there to help and guide, use what you want.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/07/13 10:04 AM
99.9.128.106
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You make a few great points, yes all groups should play to thier liking. My only problem is that with MW/BT you have two completely differant play types. Unlike most board games you don't have two distinct types of play. On one hand you have the RPG MW aspect then you have players that like only the BT aspect. This game could be easily fixed by have two seperate distenct rules for each type of play. Although they tried to do it in the previous rules sets all it did was confuse the players as a whole, due to the fact the rules were mixed together.
The part of the Jihad...the Dragoons could have easily been dealt with. They swore to protect the I.S from the clans and easily enough they could have been tied up with the Clans after the truce. This would have made it simple and easy period. I actually for one like W.o.B. I just don't like them once the Jihad happens, W.o.B and Comstar should have been in a internal war for god knows how long, they could have spent 20 years in the war against eash other.
And it is sad that the new players these days wish to get right into the action without thinking or even reading the rules. I use to be like this until I got older and now I find I play the game 100% differant then the "hack n slash" like I call it play style.
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Cray
02/07/13 01:45 PM
97.101.96.171
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That's a weird interpretation of the Jihad era. Mercenaries proliferated (in high demand by any faction, WoB or Houses or individual planets); major factions balkanized (most notably the FWL); and anyone with a 'Mech was in high demand.
The Jihad gave more opportunities for new factions than any prior era.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Col_Green
02/07/13 03:38 PM
99.9.128.106
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It did give more opportunity for others; it was the way it happened. The way I always viewed the I.S was by a true feudal system. It is all about checks and balances because without it one house or faction would go unchecked. Look at how the history was written for MW/BT.
W.o.B was suppose to be based on the original Comstar background but got corrupt over time, like any faction or major house could. The other houses and factions would NOT have allowed the Jihad per and simple. Everything the Jihad was intended to help only hurt what it was over all trying to do. You can't nuke the major planets like they did were the major employment of merc units happens thinking it would HELP the situation. That makes no sense at all….it’s like saying i'm going to hurt it first and then help it and it will come back stronger.
I would bet my entire unit on the fact FASA would have never written the history with a Jihad….IMHO…however I know this topic has been a major discussion in my gaming group and killing off all the major players like Wolf, Katrina. Victor, Theodore, and the list goes on all within 5 years…not happening not in a true Feudal system. It is never that easy.
And just to be clear I have never been a Wiz Kids fan. Just wanted it known
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Frabby
02/07/13 05:00 PM
87.164.171.135
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In fact, according to the Line Developer, FASA had planned the ComStar schism and subsequently the Jihad a very long ago already. It's precisely the reason why all those Word of Blake references were put into the ComStar sourcebook.
Then the Civil War/Twilight of the Clans dragged on longer than anticipated and it was pushed back a little. FASA also didn't plan the details, such as who was going to get killed. But I think it's obvious that a lot of those Mary Sue units and characters had to go eventually, and the Jihad was a brilliant way to off them in a blaze of glory. In some cases at least. In others, CGL apparently simply had to clean house or choke in one-dimensional superhero characters. I positively approve of the Donner bombing and the offhand demise the Black Thorns suffered.
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Karagin
02/07/13 05:37 PM
72.178.85.122
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Yes according to the LD but as I said one of the main authors said they had others things on the table as well, yet didn't go that route. The Jihad was a crappy storyline all set up to rebalance thing more back to the 3025 era in the sense that the original idea of mechs are rare and prized items comes into play again aka the whole arms race brought on with the Helm Core being found and the Clans coming along. It was not well written story line nor were the hints all that great either since they could have been taken in any number of ways. They did not need to clean house the way they did, many other ways were available as many of the fans have shown with their own fan fiction. Then again challenging this idea of the Jihad has led to a number of flame wars and childish actions by many. Again a search of the archives will give you enough on that. The whole Jihad story line and the "clicky" tech version of the game with it's future history put a wedge in the fan base. Many folks left over it. The idea that they needed to clean the story up is a piss poor way to handle the fact that the rules and mechanics of the game had become to dice heavy and slow. A rules revamp was needed NOT a story revamp. They had numerous ways to keep things go forward without the Jihad, good example all the worlds above the truce line were fair game, the Clans had more room to expand upon in both background and forward as far as sourcebooks and other material. Same with the Inner Sphere, we could have seen Laio going out in a fiery death or Marik falling part from with in. WoB could have been a minor player but no we got super WOB with all the uber toys and whistles and the ability to have all of these bases and factions willing to work with them and doing all of this in a relative short amount of time, even surpassing Star Wars for silliness when it comes to leaps in time elasticizes. But as I said before I beat this horse to death and my opinions are well known and oh Cray you guys still have yet to full explain away the money spending and such but that's okay.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/07/13 05:42 PM
72.178.85.122
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New factions...unless we see new books it's same players with some new names...WoB/ComStar more or less replaced by the Sphere, four of the five houses still there, Clans still there, a new periphery player aka Marik space and then some minor power blocks that sit out in no mans land of known space...sure lots of factions that are still the same ones over all. I think the point the original post was going for is that some players feel that with the way the RPG side is handled you were and are feed pre-canned backgrounds for characters with the old life paths and such, granted the new version of the RPG tries to get away from that, more it seems that some players want things to be more GURPS like with the background story being just that back ground or akin to Traveller where you can have your pocket empires and still have the Imperium there to clean up things if need be.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Col_Green
02/07/13 05:45 PM
99.9.128.106
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Quote:
In fact, according to the Line Developer, FASA had planned the ComStar schism and subsequently the Jihad a very long ago already. It's precisely the reason why all those Word of Blake references were put into the ComStar sourcebook.
Then the Civil War/Twilight of the Clans dragged on longer than anticipated and it was pushed back a little. FASA also didn't plan the details, such as who was going to get killed. But I think it's obvious that a lot of those Mary Sue units and characters had to go eventually, and the Jihad was a brilliant way to off them in a blaze of glory. In some cases at least. In others, CGL apparently simply had to clean house or choke in one-dimensional superhero characters. I positively approve of the Donner bombing and the offhand demise the Black Thorns suffered.
There was NO referance to a Jihad man please link a referance in any publishing of where they mention of global nukage...and the oringal write up of Comstar orginally was the writing of jerome blake...which is the reason why the splinter faction came to fruitaion. Because the W.O.B believed that Comstar lost it's faith of teh true way of Jerome Blake....no referance of global destruction EXCEPT maybe terra and outreach yes but everything else...come on man...no refernce in any of the orginal publishing....at leats none that I seen if you can link me a page I would be happy to say I was wrong.
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Cray
02/07/13 06:41 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
I would bet my entire unit on the fact FASA would have never written the history with a Jihad….IMHO…
FASA wrote the Jihad. It was part of a long-term plan for the future of BT after the Clan invasion. The first major event in the plan was the FedCom Civil War, then FASA was going to move to the Jihad. You can see the preliminary hints of the Jihad in FASA publications like the Comstar Sourcebook and Invasion of Terra.
But before FASA could get to the Jihad, FASA collapsed. FASA's writers were hired by FanPro (and later CGL), so it was under FanPro and CGL ownership that the original FASA writers finished up the Jihad.
Despite changes in ownership, the core writing staff dating to FASA days remains in place for BT.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (02/07/13 06:43 PM)
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Col_Green
02/07/13 09:42 PM
99.9.128.106
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FASA wrote the Jihad. It was part of a long-term plan for the future of BT after the Clan invasion. The first major event in the plan was the FedCom Civil War, then FASA was going to move to the Jihad. You can see the preliminary hints of the Jihad in FASA publications like the Comstar Sourcebook and Invasion of Terra.
But before FASA could get to the Jihad, FASA collapsed. FASA's writers were hired by FanPro (and later CGL), so it was under FanPro and CGL ownership that the original FASA writers finished up the Jihad.
Despite changes in ownership, the core writing staff dating to FASA days remains in place for BT. [/quote
Hinting at a Jihad? That is how you interpted the writing as I seen it in a differant light. As in the Comstar Schesm....I have the book and read them twice there is nothing in it that would make be believe in any Jihad...but splintering yes...I see that written in through out the book. Again please link or post me a referance you see Jihad or any indication that W.o.B would do anything of this scale and again I will be the first to admit I was wrong...Invastion of Terra is that a Novel? If so then that is a whole differant comversation. I have read many articles as well that FASA was split on what to do after the Fedcom civ war. Just saying I would be REALLY intrested in seeing what you are seeing.
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Cray
02/07/13 10:30 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Hinting at a Jihad? That is how you interpted the writing as I seen it in a differant light. As in the Comstar Schesm....
Alright. You saw it differently. Those were the lead-ins to the Jihad that FASA was providing.
Quote:
Invastion of Terra is that a Novel?
Sorry, I meant, "Fall of Terra" scenario pack.
Quote:
Just saying I would be REALLY intrested in seeing what you are seeing.
I work with the writers and developers, and worked with them fleshing out the "Jihad Hotspots" books. I'm giving you their perspective as I recall it. The whole story isn't in print, after all.
The Jihad story did change between FASA and FanPro, though the changes were made by FASA's (turned FanPro) writers. When Wizkids picked up the FASA intellectual property, they wanted to amp up the Jihad from a shorter, sharper conflict to the drawn-out one that finally arrived, thus setting the stage for MWDA (which Wizkids was going to market while FanPro handled Classic BattleTech). There wasn't really an argument over the change.
Wizkids was owned by the very original BattleTech creators. The Jihad was outlined, written, and rewritten by FASA writers. No outside writers stampeded in to warp the Jihad. The newer writers - like me - were just following the outlines set by FASA writers.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/07/13 11:47 PM
72.178.85.122
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Yet was the outcome the same as originally planed given that Keiths an original author and writer on his web site states that things weren't going so cozy as you make it sound as far back as Victors little jaunt off to Clan Space to stop the Clans once and for all...or did FASA post Keiths leaving retcon things so as to cancel out anything Keiths might have said?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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csadn
02/08/13 03:29 AM
69.30.99.182
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"That escalated quickly...." 
If indeed the Jihad was planned out that far back -- and I'm not wholly convinced, personally, but that's another diatribe -- then it was about the worst-possible way to go about "returning to the game's roots" imaginable (unless the idea was to force players to Buy Product [looks upward, whistling innocently]). Why move the timeline forward only to end up back where one was; when one had some 1,000 years of history which had not been covered? For example: All the new, House-specific weapons could as easily have been put into sourcebooks detailing, say, the Star League Era and First Succession War (not to mention the decidedly Nukey nature of the conflict allowing for "high-tech alongside uppity AgroMechs" as things spin out really badly really fast").
And while "Mercs proliferated", they had to -- they were getting crunched like Doritos ("crunch all you want -- we'll make more"). How many of them made it out of the Jihad alive? Not bloody many. The message I get from that is "mercs need not apply". And feeding it straight into _Dark Age_, which doesn't allow for mercs *at all*....
(Going into the *incredibly* Poor Taste of having a "Jihad" in light of RL current events... well, I'll leave that one to individual conscience.)
I admit, I have taken an alternate (history) route (I haven't posted it here, as I don't know what the rules are here for that sort of thing); but I find it annoying that the game makers seem to think "No, no -- that's not how *we* want the game played". Show some respect for the people who PAY YOUR BILLS, OK?
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Karagin
02/08/13 06:14 AM
72.178.85.122
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No rules against posting your AltHis take on BT. Share away.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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csadn
02/09/13 03:38 AM
69.30.99.182
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Quote:
No rules against posting your AltHis take on BT. Share away.
Which conference would be more appropriate -- this one, or the Board Game?
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Karagin
02/09/13 12:40 PM
72.178.85.122
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The RGP section might be better, but either of them works.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
02/09/13 11:37 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Quote:
No rules against posting your AltHis take on BT. Share away.
Which conference would be more appropriate -- this one, or the Board Game?
This one should be fine. I tended to post alternate histories to the MechWarrior RPG forum.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Col_Green
02/10/13 05:04 PM
99.9.128.106
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Im just saying that as a long term MW player with a unit of my own...and knowing the timeline that the orginal publishings and just re-read the Comstar book again last couple of days at work. There is only the fact that people within comstar arn't happy abou thow Comstar is going about there ways Spelled wrong IM sure..but anyway there was nothing that lead me to believe in a all out WAR against the I.S AND Clans...the Jihad would/should have IMHO started somthing very BAD for W.O.B if they did do what the did. That being said the Clans and I.S house would have made a pack and even for the Clans to have terra have the conflict to STOP AND DESTROY W.O.B...The Clans are Honor bound even ater 3060 to a sense that the Nuking of worlds is against everything they believe in as well...that being my take on it I just don't see the Jihad happening on the GRAND scale it happened on..I could understand Outreach even tho I like Wolf and his uint I refer to the not as a merc unit but I.S peace keepers for Nutreal planets etc..getting Nuked just because of who they are but the other planets..liek Solorais NOPE don't see it everything I have read up on that is the best defended Planet in the I.S it has W/S and a B/S defending it not to mention 3-4 wings of aerospace at time defending it not to mention all the visiting merc units on leave....sorry just seem to me the true Jihad contridics everything the MW/BT universe was based on as in using ANY Nuke or Biochem weapons is not only against the ARES convention adn you are automaticly branded Pirate it's against the I.S accords also which makes you Pirate and Rouge and a ****---- LOL...basicly you would not be welcome ANYWHERE the PEOPLE would make your life so hard on the planet millions of unhappy people and knowing what W.O.B did....sorry man I just don't see it AND now after what you said why the writers DID NOT put the Jihad in previous publishings made sense...would have killed the MW/BT universe and kinda did I use to know many people who played till the timeline came out and the Jihad...LOTS pf poeple left this game system DUE to MWDA.
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csadn
02/11/13 03:39 AM
69.30.99.182
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.sorry just seem to me the true Jihad contridics everything the MW/BT universe was based on as in using ANY Nuke or Biochem weapons is not only against the ARES convention adn you are automaticly branded Pirate it's against the I.S accords also which makes you Pirate and Rouge
That's another part of the problem: The Jihad is so obviously shoehorned into canon to bring the game we know and love into line with that abomination _MWDP^HA_.
If the writers really wanted to bring NBC into the game (a bad idea to start with; every GM knows: NEVER give PCs Nukes ), they could as-easily have published "1st Succession War" and "Age of War" s-bs. Advanced Tech -- put it in the SL Era, where it belongs. But then, these are the same folks who took something like 15 *years* to figure out the answer to the "what do we do now that Harmony Gold has told us to C&D" question which every player I knew at the time figured out in 15 *minutes*: "Commission new artwork, moron!". It's almost as if they deliberately take the stupidest-possible course, so they can whip out the smart one only after everyone's already given up and shelled out for the "wrong answer" product -- but that's inordinately cynical even for me.
Alt-hist may come later; I have Reality to deal with first. :P
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Cray
02/11/13 12:39 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
Im just saying that as a long term MW player with a unit of my own...and knowing the timeline that the orginal publishings and just re-read the Comstar book again last couple of days at work. There is only the fact that people within comstar arn't happy abou thow Comstar is going about there ways <hince the Schems> Spelled wrong IM sure..but anyway there was nothing that lead me to believe in a all out WAR against the I.S AND Clans...the Jihad would/should have IMHO started somthing very BAD for W.O.B if they did do what the did.
The problem with that line of thought is that WoB didn't just go, "Rarg! Me attack whole Inner Sphere and Clans at once!" WoB's threat and the Jihad were only clear in hindsight.
What happened is that the Inner Sphere was embroiled in about a half-dozen border conflicts from 3067 to 3071, with Houses fighting Houses and Houses fighting Clans and Clans fighting Clans. There were particularly large conflicts between the FWL and Steiner, and the Federated Suns started wars on both its Combine and Confederation borders when it was still weakened and drained by the FedCom Civil War (ended in early 3067).
During that tumultuous time, WoB was only poking and prodding here and there. It attacked New Avalon in late 3067 and was sent packing. It attacked Tharkad and then ran away. It made special forces strikes here and there, and absorbed more of the Chaos March.
People only really sat up and said, "Hey, WoB's being annoying to everyone!" around 3071-3072, by which time militaries were exhausted and key factories had been wrecked. At that point, everything went real bad for WoB and everyone ganged up on them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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csadn
02/12/13 01:39 AM
69.30.99.182
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Quote:
People only really sat up and said, "Hey, WoB's being annoying to everyone!" around 3071-3072, by which time militaries were exhausted and key factories had been wrecked. At that point, everything went real bad for WoB and everyone ganged up on them.
Which was quite possibly the worst strategy -- WoB scattered hither and yon, annoying everyone in the universe; and defeated in detail.
"Only a fool fights on two fronts; only the Heir To The Throne Of The Kingdom Of Fools fights on *twelve* fronts." [Londo Mollari, _Babylon 5_]
That, BTW, is another factor of the Jihad I find Annoying. In my writing, I have two hard-and-fast rules: No Time-Travel; and No Tinfoil-Hat Mass Conspiracies. How many of those did BT end up with in fifty years' game-time?
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Cray
02/12/13 12:55 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
That, BTW, is another factor of the Jihad I find Annoying. In my writing, I have two hard-and-fast rules: No Time-Travel; and No Tinfoil-Hat Mass Conspiracies. How many of those did BT end up with in fifty years' game-time?
BT has no time travel, as stated in Strategic Operations pg. 134. The closest thing was an exotic suspended animation effect that happened to one JumpShip.
As for Tinfoil Hat Mass Conspiracies, BT's been using them since it was published, like Pre-Schism ComStar's great conspiracy to destroy human civilization, running from c2800 to 3052 and the Minnesota Tribe.
WoB's 15-year plan to destroy the Clans hardly counts as a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It was a military plan with moderate security success (most of the Houses knew of WoB's military build-up from 3058 to 3067, but hadn't figured out the intended application.) See Jihad Secrets (The Blake Documents), pg11-14, for a complete summary of WoB's simple plans and goals, and what went wrong.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Col_Green
02/12/13 07:01 PM
99.9.128.106
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Quote:
Quote:
That, BTW, is another factor of the Jihad I find Annoying. In my writing, I have two hard-and-fast rules: No Time-Travel; and No Tinfoil-Hat Mass Conspiracies. How many of those did BT end up with in fifty years' game-time?
BT has no time travel, as stated in Strategic Operations pg. 134. The closest thing was an exotic suspended animation effect that happened to one JumpShip.
As for Tinfoil Hat Mass Conspiracies, BT's been using them since it was published, like Pre-Schism ComStar's great conspiracy to destroy human civilization, running from c2800 to 3052 and the Minnesota Tribe.
WoB's 15-year plan to destroy the Clans hardly counts as a tinfoil hat conspiracy. It was a military plan with moderate security success (most of the Houses knew of WoB's military build-up from 3058 to 3067, but hadn't figured out the intended application.) See Jihad Secrets (The Blake Documents), pg11-14, for a complete summary of WoB's simple plans and goals, and what went wrong.
I have also read...can't remember where, a novel maybe or some un-official site that the True Jihad was the complete and total destruction and complete takeover of all HPG's through out the I.S AND Clans. Me I like this aspect better then the one that is written. To me and my interruption of the Jihad to me is what a true JIHAD would be. The outside political and military actions of anything outside the Comstar and W.O.B would no matter to W.O.B...which is the whole point behind the Schism....it happened because too many people in Comstar believed in complete control of anything Star league related and stay Neutral otherwise. To the other houses.
I do see and understand where your coming from tho and just wanted to let you know...sadly I can't agree with it and thankfully the GM has the Ultimate power to do what the GM wants to do. And thankfully my GM doesn't agree at all with how it all went down. ....You can play with that timeline but i sure won't play BT/MW if you follow that timelne im not going to put in YEARS of hard real time work on my unit only to know that I have a 90% chance of being wiped out during the Jihad...that timeline makes it WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY to easy for a GM to wipe out ANY unit they wish.
However I am a older player and getting owned by another unit that is NOT using NBC weapons..unless im Pirate hunting in the Pheriphy.....then I can walk away for it if my unit gets owned. Because then I know it was somthing other then a Alamo missle that took me out without a fight.
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Cray
02/12/13 07:44 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
I have also read...can't remember where, a novel maybe or some un-official site that the True Jihad was the complete and total destruction and complete takeover of all HPG's through out the I.S AND Clans.
Nope. WoB had no interest in wrecking all HPGs prior to the collapse of the Second Star League. After that, it was just a tactical maneuver, not a key part of a grand plan.
As stated in Jihad Secrets, the original intent of the Jihad was to destroy the Clans. This would achieve the diplomatic goal of making WoB look good to the Inner Sphere upon WoB's elevation to a full member of the Second Star League. It would also achieve WoB's philosophical goal of destroying a culture that made a point of focusing everything, especially technology, on war, which was a violation of Blake's words.
That was it. There's nothing complicated about the intent of the Jihad. The methods were convoluted, but so was all the lead up to D-Day.
What no one - least of all WoB - expected was for the new Star League to be dissolved. That led to WoB re-targeting its Jihad forces on the Inner Sphere in a crusade to restore the Star League. Which, of course, was a dumb way to restore the League.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
02/12/13 09:40 PM
72.178.85.122
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How so? Prior to the whole opening moves all we had were their silly add ins to the source books and some silliness between WoB Adpets and ComStar folks in one novel, then wait we had the no more novels cause of the collaspe of ownership of Battletech and then nothing, but wait if you joined BATTLECORP you could get all this official fiction IF you paid to join the club...I am not seeing any hindsight, if there was such a thing for the whole WoB attack then why did they need to run to Marik or even need the FWL to start with...and again the money, manpower, supply line issues have still not be answered, glossed over, ignored and half way explained away in the idea that well they supported this company or that company etc...21 years they go from small time fry to big time players who can topple whole states and blast the Clans to bits in their OZ...and everyone in the Inner Sphere is blind to it...right okay.
How do we know this? We have seen no printed novels covering this that the main stream BT player can get easily. We have NO sourcebook that actually tells us anything, we got a bunch of crap of typos and wiggits and wasted paper versus something we could use. Then the WoB pulls a Nazi like escape...with their Leader going down in flames, yet the hard core nuts walking away into the night. That is about all we have.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/13 09:48 PM
72.178.85.122
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15 years...right okay...hell even SW went with 300 years before the Sith showed up to challenge the Republic in the events of The Old Republic. But yet a group of toaster worshipping nut jobs can pull off a galaxy wide attack that manages to close off just about every loop hole or oddity of the past 25 years of BT history, kind of odd that eh...yeah okay and they can do this with only the other wackos noticing and the main Intel groups blinder then bat in the day time...NO Cray that book doesn't tell us anything, it doesn't explain things in any detail nor does it really answer the questions that keep getting glossed over, a 3 to 4 page write up doesn't even come close to answering anything or even telling us something that we can use...factories = Hidden Worlds and Terra. Money = FWL and Terra. Manpower = Hidden Worlds and Terra. Supplies and parts = FWL and Terra and Hidden Worlds. Training grounds and bases and such = Terra, Hidden Worlds etc...wow that tells us NOTHING.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/13 09:54 PM
72.178.85.122
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Really? How about we get a book that skips all of the silliness and simply tells us from start to finish about the WoB and their actions, none of the mumbo jumbo silliness we have seen in the Jihad sourcebooks. I have mentioned this before and no of you who write full or part time for BT want tackle it and then you guys are quick to defend what is clearly a sore point, more so then the Clans or new weapons, in the BT community. That is the part I have never understood. A company can plainly see that their product has hit a sore point with many of the customers, NEW customers are not coming in, in droves to replace the ones leaving and yet they continue on with crappy storyline. How many game systems have failed and died because of similar events? How many are hanging on by a thread? BT has a loyal fan bases, but again how many fans said enough over the Jihad and the MWDA setting? I can count for at least 15 folks, since I bought their BT stuff when they left and stopped playing. Now that the Jihad storyline has ended, would it not make sense to clear up everything about it and give us the actual facts and such without all of the "in character or setting" mumbo jumbo we got out of the Jihad Sourcebooks? Or is that a no go area and one that won't be touched?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Frabby
02/13/13 05:08 AM
87.164.170.249
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I find myself disagreeing with almost every point you make above. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion as much as I am to mine; it boils down to a question of taste, not of facts within the storyline.
A few points perhaps worth raising:
- I for one positively loved the chaotic news-style presentation style of the Jihad storyline, and I think I'm in the majority camp here. The whole tone of the conflict was set by this chaotic and desperate presentation, which is precisely what made it work for me.
- The Jihad was a uniquely complex affair, unlike the somewhat bland and simplistic conflicts that went down before in BattleTech. When stuff hits the fan across three thousand star systems (!), there is not always an explanation as to why things turn out as they do. YMMV, but I though it a whole lot more believable than the too-clean wars of the pulp fiction BT of the eighties and nineties.
Really, If I need to vent anger about unbelievable crap then I rant about the Clans, and even in their case the Wars of Reaving sourcebook went a long way to soothe my offended feelings.
- You feel the Word of Blake is over the top? Then what do you feel about the Clans? But really, there's scores of nutjobs out there in the real world believing and fighting for all kinds of nonsense. If you multiply that by three thousand inhabited star systems, I can see almost any belief getting a substantial followers base. Every mistake the WoB made - hubris, self-righteousness and spite in particular - is part of our real-world problems today. Nothing there that had to be invented.
Within the BT universe, you also seem to forget that WoB has been around for centuries as ComStar. They had the Jihad coming for 300 years.
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