Requiem
06/15/18 08:25 PM
58.175.193.140
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They were approx 50 Regiments
Post 4SW Myndo Waterly entered into a policy of having ComGuards ‘Mechs etc stationed on all IS worlds up to the beginning of the Clan Invasion.
You would have thought that this action would have dispersed the ComGuards considerably throughout the IS….
Thus when Anastasius Focht came up with the idea of a proxy “Terra” war on Tukayyd he would have had to put the ComGuards back together ASAP.
This would have drawn the attention of all House Lords.
The House Lords would then have asked questioned as to what the ComGuad was up to, forming such a large force within a staging area prior to Tukayyid.
(If answered this would give the IS forces enough time to plan and organise a strong assault force of their own)
With the challenge issued all Clans would then have had to requisition Garrison troops to assemble a single large force to engage the Comguard Forces on Tukayyid – thus reducing their forces in their rear.
With the start of the Tukayyid campaign – I ask why the IS forces did not attack the Clans in the rear – cutting their supply lines – gaining back valuable worlds the clans had won – because of their reduced garrison size on multiple worlds would they not have been serious targets of opportunity that IS forces could invade and reclaim?
They even could have issued challenges to the Clan Forces – With what forces do you hold this world? – Clan Honour intact – IS forces still invade regaining many of their worlds whist their main forces are distracted and fighting it out of Tukayyd?
Your Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/16/18 12:39 AM
66.74.61.223
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To my knowledge, the clans were told which forces would engage each one and the bidding started. Not sure if they went as close to 1/2 of the comguards stationed on the battle field, but I doubt they did more then send in the front line units. Nothing garrison, as they are meer solhama units.
It may well be, the IS was concerned about the warships destroying any forces sent in. And the IS did not know the clans were pulling the warships back after Turtle Bay.
Though I did not see anywhere in any of the books that suggested comstar shared clan intel on where units were at, but then operation scorpion took place after the fight was done. So they were still covering for the clans.
And after the battle, the clans still conquered worlds above the line. They just didn't do anything below it.
The ressurected red corsair has threatened this status. But that is after this period.
Honestly, I don't think they did all worlds with forces, as 50 regiments would not work. Important worlds, and ones they would recruit and try to turn rebellious more then likely had some. Even having them in the system, as some had more then one world that was habitable, and nothing said that only one in each system had an HPG.
Other then poor intel on the worlds, and writers not wanting it, I don't see why they wouldn't have launched at least raids. Well that isn't quite true. I could see the not wanting to be dishonorable and force the clans to fight like the IS did. That would have destroyed alot more IS units then it did.
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Requiem
06/16/18 04:16 AM
58.175.193.140
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If we refer to Sarna.net – Com Guards wiki page, the following information is provided “With the Guards now posted across the length and breadth of the Inner Sphere …”
So this provides evidence that yes the Com Guard were scattered prior to Tukayyid - therefore to complete the battle yes he (Focht) would have had to reform them into one unit prior to Tukayyid.
Thus the House Lords would take note – ask questions – and make plans accordingly ….
The Clans were provided with a list of locations and objectives, they were then allowed to bid with regards to which Clan went first, second, third … etc. Each clan would then act independently of the other Clans to achieve their independent goal, whereas the Com Guards were allowed to act as a whole unit throughout the entire campaign and assign its forces as required.
As per posts made in Alt. History / Thoughts re Clan Invasion of IS - this clearly shows that yes for the battle of Tukayyid the remaining advance forces (those not assigned to a garrison) were diminished to a size that would require each Clan to gather additional forces from their Garrisons to enable them to conduct the Tukayyid Campaign. (as each Clan clearly did not have a large enough Solhamah unit to garrison all of their worlds within the IS).
Therefore yes their remaining garrisons would be diminished … thus making these words a viable targets.
Therefore we must consider that the only thing that could stop a reinvasion of Clan held worlds by the Inner Sphere is that of the threat posed by warships.
How therefore can the IS get around / through this impediment then ….?
• As stated before many / if not all Clan held worlds would have an IS insurgent force (with a Hanse Davion Black Box) assigned to that world as spies and to conduct anti-clan operations on that world - Therefore communication with the outside is possible as to the presence of a warship (as long as they have the ability to detect the warships presence);
• An invasion using Clan rules could be used – Batchall – Safcon (allowing troops to land on a world unmolested in advance of a trial);
• As stated previously – Battle of Britain Air Vice-Marshal Trafford Leigh-Mallory and Acting Squadron Leader Douglas Bader proposed the tactic of the Big Wing also known as a Balbo – In games Term’s where the ‘Mechs had a RCT – the Aerospace should have a Regimental Aerospace Combat Team (120 to 180 fighters) that are used to strike at the most dangerous threat to the IS. This would also require the utilization of a new weapon – capital anti-warship missile Barracuda ( available in 3051) – Alamo Nuclear Missile (5KT)?.
(AS previously Stated in the CC forum pages the FC should have gone against the DC because they are the greatest threat – thus during the Clan invasion the FC should also go against the greatest threat – that being the Clan Warship)
The IS must have created a contingency for dealing with a warship – and at this time why not implement it to regain lost territory and deny the Clans access to their supply routes?
Using the Clain’s own tactics against them as the Com Guards prior to and during Tukayyid – if given the chance why would not all the IS Forces also use these same tactics against them at the same time? Therefore ensuring the return of valuable IS worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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wolf_lord_30
06/16/18 02:01 PM
74.214.54.153
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Com Guard were scattered because they were guarding HPGs and "assisting" some of the planets that needed help.
I understand the need for the Com Guard. They had to protect their communication business. I also understand they needed to be a supposed secret. How secret could they have been, though, if Thomas Marik served with them and they gave a whole bunch of 'mechs to the DC? I just don't really like that they had a whole secret army trained up and ready to go and very few people knew it. Even with the vastness of space and the universe, it seems a little much something as big as the Com Guard was never outed. And they were the knights that swooped in to save the IS from the Clans. So what, they hid under a HPG station in a hidden mech hangar?
It leads into the WoB military build up and secret armies and mass troop movement hidden from everyone in the Inner Sphere at the start of the Jihad. It doesn't sit well with me.
Clan garrisons weren't more fleshed out until the 3055 TRO when they realized it couldn't be frontline only omnimechs. The Jade Falcon sourcebook had some Eyries that had a bunch of Star League 'mechs. Wolf also had a few thrown into their garrison clusters. The Jade Falcon book had a few second line mechs, but it wasn't much, and Wolf only added more omnimechs. I think that it was realized that the while the invasion was all well and good, but they needed a way to for the Clans to hold onto their worlds, add some new product to the mix and call it a day.
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ghostrider
06/16/18 06:55 PM
66.74.61.223
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Well the spy thing might work if they were on the world before it was hit. Coming in afterwards may not be possible, as the clans should have inspected any ship that came into a system. Seizing it was more likely. Not sure if the clanners would know what the boxes were if they found them.
Now the term scattered is a problem. Being stationed all over the IS could very well mean in every nation. That may not mean every world or even every system. Part of the problem with some of the writing. The lack of explanation on some things.
And it seems the best way to deal with warships is with warships. Production of them should have been increased, though this is a very expensive thing to do.
Alternatives had to be looked into, like the pocket warships. The only real issue with this is the amount of them needed to take out a warship quickly to avoid heavy losses. More pocket warships, more jumpships.
The sds idea comes to mind, Fighters and even dropships made into drones was viable.
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Requiem
06/16/18 07:02 PM
58.175.193.140
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The existence of the Com Guard does make sense, however, the disbursement of the Com Guard by Myndo Waterly post 4SW does not.
Comstar’s long term plan –allow the House Lords to reduce their technology, via war, to such a level that all inter-planetary transport is no longer available.
This would then give ComStar the opportunity to ride out like the knights of old – using their Com Guard to conquer the inner sphere (hence the need for a standing army – conquer and enforce the law throughout the IS by their new overlords (Comstar’s First Circuit)).
Establishing a Star League that is also a Blakean Theocracy!
However Comstar always strived for the IS to view them as ‘Switzerland’ – an independent and neutral entity within the IS that is abhorred by the concept of War – An organisation who also has a quasi-religious aspect to itself – i.e a business that strives to promote the best of what humanity strives to be.
Thus the question, why would you destroy the people of the IS’s perception of what they represent by placing what was once a ‘hidden army’ throughout the IS.
People’s perceptions are now crushed by this revelation of a Comstar’s ‘hidden army’, they would be asking themselves, “What else is Comstar hiding, if they hid this army from us for such a long time?” and “Why are they revealing the existence of this ‘hidden army’ now? and what are they up to that requires an army?”
Not only the IS media, the average citizen on the street would be engaged in speculative discourse as to what the answers to these questions could be – fuelling speculation and uncertainty.
It would also put all the House Lords and their military on edge when it came to Comstar and their political long term objectives and how they were going to get to those objectives –via force?
From now on a House Lord can only view Comstar as another potential threat on their journey to First Lord.
For the people of the IS it would be like finding out the Easter Bunny does not exist, a cherished dream of what people are striving for, a return to the Star League and the values the league stood for, was a lie!
No, Waterly’s decision to unveil their army was a massive blunder, the First Circuit should have enforced the wishes of Blake and their past policies regarding the existence of the Com Guard and kept them carefully hidden away until the time was right (the fall of civilisation throughout the IS).
One can only speculate that it was Focht (Previously, in another life, as a House Steiner Lord) who suggested this policy to Waterly, so that he could show the IS the existence of this hidden dagger that was at its neck, which could be considered an artful deception / manipulation on his part in getting Waterly to disclose the existence of the Com Guard.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/16/18 07:40 PM
58.175.193.140
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The spy / insurgent / commando – yes I agree you can have them on world before they are invaded –I would assume this would have been SOP for all Houses (for those worlds that could be invaded and captured by their adversaries). Afterwards – Pirate point jump via Jumpship with a Lithium- Fusion Battery comes to mind.
As for the word ‘scattered’, I would take it at face value, the same as for so many other aspects the writers of the Battletech universe want us to accept.
However this would not diminish the fact as to their existence and their required transport / time when it occurred to reforge the Com Guard back into one unit within a staging area close to Tukayyid to enable the Battle of Tukayyid to commence.
Hence we come back to the issue of Warships and how to deal with them …
1. Warships require a vast amount of money, time and expertise to create.
2. Time that the IS forces do not have.
3. The Clans have a vast numerical superiority from the get go.
4. It could take decades before the IS could see parity in numbers with that of the Clans when it comes to warships if at all. Even if they did decide to create pocket warships rather than warships themselves (smaller more numerous pocket warships rather than a smaller number of warships themselves)
Therefore we come back to the issue of the capital missile again …
5. If used on a dropship though they are still a large and easy target for Warships to destroy;
However if capital missiles are used in conjunction with aerospace fighters – small / fast and agile craft – and utilising the Regimental Aerospace Combat Team (Starting at 120 fighters all armed with a capital missile)
6. An aerospace Capital Missile is cheap, easy to mass produce and can be very dangerous to a warship when used in large numbers.
Therefore the question should be asked as to why it took so long for the writers / game designers to allow the introduction of such a non-nuclear capital-missile weapon (approx.. 3069) – nineteen years after the initial invasion – even with 20th / 21st Century technology this missile should not have taken that long to establish for the air fleet arm of the House Lords.
Thus we are now back to the only missile they did have at this time the 5MT Nuclear warhead - the Alamo missile.
Given the amount of lost worlds could you even make a rational argument for not utilizing these against Clan Warships in a last ditch effort to regain lost worlds to the Clans whilst their garrison forces are reduced – creating a perfect opportunity for a counter attack against the Clans? Thus regaining their most valuable lost worlds, and establishing a buffer between the IS clans and that of their supply lines into the periphery? Without supplies how long could the Clans last despite their technological advantage when comparing to a force with a numerical advantage (and also the Com Guard is also now in the fight whether they like it or not)?
Your Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/16/18 07:52 PM)
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ghostrider
06/16/18 11:34 PM
66.74.61.223
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The disbursal of the com guards was done slowly at first, using mercs and such. The cover of protecting the HPGs being in place, alot of people didn't care at that point. Well in the FS portion of the FC. The interdiction had screwed up their economy, so they were happy just to start getting in goods again. The rest of the IS might have been happy if comstar did the charity thing, though I don't remember seeing much.
Walterly pushed to have the comguard out, I want to say the time line had Focht still in the hospital recovering from the shot in the head. She was the one that forced the interdiction, and having their units spread out to form rebellions on backwater worlds was the start of their plans. It was unfortunate for her, that she had to put units in the other states, as it would have been real fishy for them only to be in the FC.
The spies would have to have been in place BEFORE the clans invaded those worlds to have any chance or reporting information. Otherwise, getting onto a world with a military checking out what comes and goes would be alot harder, even though the clans were not well educated with espionage. Which is wrong, since Wolfnet was made when the Dragoons got into the IS.
The lithium batteries were not distributed as you might think, since they basically would need a full rebuild, or easier to just make a new jumpship. As I doubt they would have had many, if any on the periphery border at the times the clans hit, it is unlikely the IS would risk them with the clans assault. Once things settled down, it would be more likely.
As for not using nuke, I said it before. The IS had very little clue on how the clans operated. The discharge of a single one, may have well had the clans retaliate with nukes and orbital bombardments as a standard. You also have the problem of where you set them off. Wiping out your own planets trying to do so would not go well. Nuking any in orbit would destroy coms satellites, and possibly drop radioactive materials on the world. Jump points without stations would be fine.
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Requiem
06/17/18 03:34 AM
58.175.193.140
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Quote: “The disbursal of the com guards …. allot of people didn't care at that point. Well in the FS portion of the FC. The interdiction had screwed up their economy, so they were happy just to start getting in goods again”.
Yes getting the economy going again would be plus, however, how would anyone feel if they discovered their major telecommunications supplier had their own private army (Though considering how some of them operate … I wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t have their own army … Hahahaha (Joke)) There is also the issue of perception … How is Comstar perceived by the people of the IS … would it not be seen as a violation of everything Comstar Stands for (a quasi-religious order ….anti-war … pro return of Star League values) for the people of the IS to see that Comstar has the Com Guards and they are now dispersing them throughout he IS.
Quote: “It was unfortunate for her, that she had to put units in the other states ….”
Unfortunate? …. Is this not part of her ‘master-plan’ ?
With the DC … it was part of the agreement … free Rasalhague … let us put Com Guard on your worlds … and we will give you 13 Star League era ‘Mech Regiments ….
With the LA …. Ryan, we will help you with your Free Skye Separatist movement … you attack our facility … we demand of the Archon that we can put our Com Guards on LA worlds ….
Initially the Clans had no understanding in re to espionage …. Wolfnet belongs to Wolfs Dragoons …. and how long have they been in the IS by 3050 thus learning all the ways of how the IS Houses operate?
As for the Litium-Fusion Batteries … this is a supposition … as I have never been able to find out how many of their (IS) military jumpships had them in the initial years of the Clan Invasion … everyone would be guessing as to the numbers up to and including Tukayyid – thus we are back to whomever is the Gamemaster and their call on the night as to if this would work out or not.
I still cannot see a problem with a simple insertion drop of a spy unit and/or a commando unit on a clan held world – that is unless you somehow jump right on top of a Warship that is.
As for a spy unit being on the periphery border – using the FC as an example – would they not be on words on the both sides of the Rasalhague border as well as those important worlds that would be classified as being of strategic importance - a target of opportunity … or those that had an individual (or group) of importance on them that needed to be watched …. closely ….
Quote: As for not using nuke, I said it before. The IS had very little clue on how the clans operated. The discharge of a single one, may have well had the clans retaliate with nukes and orbital bombardments as a standard.
We are taking about just as Tukayyid is occurring, not at the start of the Clan Invasion!
Thus on 1 May 3052 – the IS has little clue on how the Clans operated???? …. The IS has had two plus years to get to know how the Clans operated – how many bondsman, snatch and grab individuals (from commando raids) etc would the IS intelligence organisations have interrogated as to every aspect of clan life, psychology etc. by the time Tukayyid rolled around?
So yes I do think that after two plus years the IS would have a very good understanding as to each clan’s psychology / disposition etc.
So the issue comes back to the issue of Risk Versus Reward …
The Risk that the clans may do something unexpected…. And …. The Rewards – Planets, Military Industries, Strategic and Tactical Advantage over the Clans by denying them access to their supply corridor ….. etc.
So again … I believe we are back to whomever is the Game-master and their call on the night as to if this would work out or not.
(It is clear we do not know what the Gamemaster will do on the night)
However, if you use Batchall (the ritual by which warriors issue combat challenges ….) how could the game-master say this was not honourable if you, as the attacking IS, are upfront as to weapons being used …and as for the location of the battle can anyone guarantee the location and how it will move with the ebb and flow of battle as it progresses from start to finish … what matters is the overall objective that is being achieved …. a destroyed warship … planets returned to IS control …. etc. …etc.
Plus you must remember the old quote “needs must as the devil drives!!!!” and this is very real situation as Commanders fall back on this quote when they are in a war situation ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/17/18 07:12 PM)
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ghostrider
06/17/18 04:12 PM
66.74.61.223
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Step one of the master plan was to do what ever they could to stop the FC. But if they put all of their forces in there, it would look suspicious. I will say you are correct on them wanting to run the IS, and the dispersal probably helped with that.
Now with Wolfnet, they were getting information when they arrived which was much better then some states. Granted, they don't say if they were in the IS before the Dragoons arrived, but the whole story implies they were great at getting information. The would mean they learned it somewhere.
I think you are missing something with the IS taking bondsmen. You have win battles, as most units that got off the worlds the clans invade fled as quick as they could. Not sure how many times they actually raided a base, but prisoners is more the name for those taken in the IS. Bondsman is clan only. And again. The black boxes where not in the hands of every agent or even every world. So getting information out was even more difficult then even arranging a shuttle to take you to a jump ship on a time schedule.
The lithium batteries may be on more ships then I think, but given the impression the IS was supposed to be so behind in factories, they would not have the time to refit alot of jumpships and still make more. Also not sure if the ship has to be partially torn apart to do so. The novels suggest the core area is very tight fit. Installing what sounds to be large batteries, that may not fit thru cargo doors on a jumpship. But then I haven't seen any stats on docking collars. Most jumpships seem to have shuttles for moving cargo if not for the docking collar way.
Minor point of the Batchall. The defender chooses the battlefield. With out history, I could not say one way or the other if it was done by the unit before, so it is possible they would not accept if it was violated in a previous encounter.
As for the game master, I agree. It is up to them to decide what is the next mission.
I may be under a false impression that the alt history is being put up to get feedback. Might not be that civil at times. But so far the threads have not been locked.
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Requiem
06/17/18 08:12 PM
58.175.193.140
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Wolfnet in all probability was set up by Wolfs Dragoons as they moved from one Great House employer to the next … Case in point Snord’s Irregulars as a forward reconnaissance force … so why not insert their people throughout the IS as the Dragoons moved around …. Their loyalty (I would consider) would be to Wolfs Dragoons …. However, like Natasha this is not an absolute …. Some may have returned / assisted Clan Wolf …. Though the reality still remains …. How do they let Clan Wolf know that they have an operative on “X” world -How do they communicate with Clan Wolf - How do they receive instructions from Clan Wolf in return?
As for the Wolfs Dragoons it would be a simple double blind …. Set up multiple companies / individuals … with whom they correspond with (in code) via the IS Comstar HPG …. That will over time reach Wolfs Dragoons (once uuencoded and deciphered)
Thus Clan Wolf Spies will learn the art … via Wolf Dragoon’s Spies …. Given time …. However as for all the other Clans …. They are on a much steeper learning curve requiring a greater time to learn the art (many of their spies will be lost in the early days when they attempt to setup their own spy agencies – more people to be interrogated by IS intelligence agencies ?).
As for IS Bondsman …… How about Apollo, Tinkler Forest, 1248 Hours, 14 August 3051 – Clan Snord (Rhonda’s Irregulars) took bondsman …. Did not both the IS states (both FC and DC) win a major battle with the Clans? So is it that hard that bondsman were not taken at the end of these battles?
What about the 1st Somerset Strikers … the TV series … they got a bonds-woman …..and began to interrogate her ….
And no you don’t have to win battles to take bondsman …. You just take the wounded off the battlefield …. Fix them up … have them sent to an intelligence safe house and as a POW interrogate them … even if you are in retreat you can still get away with this …. Stop thinking in absolutes …. Even in retreat if an opportunity arises, a soldier can still get away with a lot things they shouldn’t …. They could have been taken within the retreating drop-ships … they could have been taken by spies / commandoes (who would have a black box)and access to a pirate point pick-up …. They could have defected …. Their merchant cast could have been grabbed when they attempted a deal on an IS world not held by the Clans ….. How can I list all the ways Clan people can be kidnapped throughout the IS? ….. it is too plausible not to consider that it occurred, therefore information was gained by the IS’s Great Houses …. Therefore they did have an understanding …
Or are you saying a DEST operative (for example) could not have grabbed someone and gotten them off-world if they wanted to during the Clan Invasion?
As for feedback … yes this is what this it is for … but at the end of the day there are some-things that we may agree to but whilst in game the game-master may have a different opinion to and we must recognise this as a variable to game play…. You cannot argue with the game-master whilst during the game …. (point of order game-master what you have just said is wrong because of this this and this reason ……. groan ….the game jus becomes a shouting match as to the correct interpretation of ….. the game ends … no fun for anyone)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 09:25 PM
66.74.61.223
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The books suggest Wolfnet had found holes in the defenses of the CC during their stay with the FS when they first came in, as well as knowing information on some of the nobles they talked with. Things that were not in the publics eye.
And expanding on this is the Seventh Kommandos. They were elite units that came in with the dragoons that infiltrated, espionage, destroyed things that did not learn their skills in the IS.
The IS started taking bondsman when they started winning battles. And Snord was from the clans. Well Rhonda was the daughter of a clansman, which is actually a break off unit from the dragoons. So they had clan indoctrine in them. Yes. Once they seen what freedom was, and how poorly they were treated in the clans, they defected. But until you live like it, they are all lies to rout out spies.
Not sure if clan honor/pride would allow them to go with the IS. I want to say they would fight capture the best they could, with some taking their lives.
I do agree that taking some in a retreat is possible, but that still doesn't paint a picture of all that is going on. And the clans themselves were not doing what the IS thought they would.
Dest, and the other intel organizations would have a problem getting off worlds without some sort of military force to ambush those pursuing them. Yeah, aerofighters are hard to ambush, but would be needed to scrape off fighters from a shuttle or what ever they were using to get away. Otherwise you risk losing the jumpship. The Black Thorns is a good one for this example.
The only time I can see saying the gm is wrong is when something that was/wasn't allowed before become impossible/possible in this session. It happens at times. Otherwise, you save it until the end of the game session.
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Requiem
06/18/18 08:23 AM
58.175.193.140
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Question, yes the Seventh Kommando came with Wolfs Dragoons and were a part of Wolfnet … my questing is this, why do we not see anything like this unit at all when the Clans Invade?
Were they a one off unit established on the Clan Home-worlds prior to Wolfs Dragoons leaving for the Inner Sphere and then quickly forgotten as an aberration, as they did have their ‘superior’ elementals?
QUOTE: “But until you live like it, they are all lies to rout out spies”.
Making absolutes again … it would be more likely you realised the society to which you belonged when first you were ‘fostered’ out from that of your birth parents …. then again when you came before the clans “police” …. and you received their form of justice …. and again when you were assigned to one of the non-warrior castes: scientist, merchant, technician and labourer (a highly stratified and class bound society) … how were you treated by others and how were you treated by the warrior caste.
Remember the way you can judge a society is by how they treat the lowest member of their society – so how does a clan warrior treat a clan labourer? … contempt, disgust?
QUOTE: “….allow them to go with the IS…. They would fight capture ….taking their lives.”
They are not Kuritans …. do they not abhor waste, as I have yet to read an example of any defeated Clan warrior fighting capture when being made a bondsman, even by an Inner Sphere person. Did not Victor Steiner Davion have his Smoke-Jaguar Elemental, Tiaret Nevversan ….
With the DEST example …. How unorganised do you believe they are … “we’ll just snatch Joe (the Clan merchant over there) …. Then we will work out what to do next and make it up as we go along” ….. rather than …. We have a plan from the kidnapping, holding, transporting on world and off-world, to final transfer to an intelligence agency and then finally to the interrogation …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/18 12:34 PM
66.74.61.223
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Can you show me an example of a civilization that has been the only thing for light years around them for over 200 years? This is not something that can be based on todays teachings. We do have nations today where people accept they will not be higher then their fathers were. No upward movement unless you marry into it, and mainly the females would do so.
Those of the higher class would look down on such a union. Maybe even send the higher one to a lower class.
The spec ops do seem to be in the clans, with it suggested clan Wolf actually has been training some. I want to say, during the Jade Phoenix stories, it was shown that the wolves had been putting spies in other clans. Killing someone and replacing all evidence of it. Well Freeborns atleast.
And the scientist caste was mixing DNA from multiple clans together for a while, without any knowledge of the warriors.
So your civil war may have been coming in the future, but the IS invasion sidetracked it, or maybe even helped it along. Now the warriors had something to occupy them besides watching the rest.
I am saying that once they are found out, trying to get out of system would be difficult, not impossible. And you would need to do that with more then a couple of victims. A few might now alot, while others would only know what they need to.
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Requiem
06/18/18 08:41 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “Can you show me an example of a civilization that has been the only thing for light years around them for over 200 years?”
Yes, yes I can show you this civilisation .. consider Voltaire and the quotes he has given us …
“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
“Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.”
The Clans are just a repeat of a civilisations from the past that they have not learnt any lessons from history, thus they are just repeating the mistakes of their predecessors – Did not Nicholas Base the Clans upon Mongals, Chinese and Japanese (as well as, not intentionally?, Germans)? – so therefore yes they can be identified and quantified for what and who they are ….
QUOTE: “No upward movement unless you marry into it, and mainly the females would do so. Those of the higher class would look down on such a union. Maybe even send the higher one to a lower class.”
You really believe this? ……non PC …. Royal weddings during the Succession Wars? how many were for love and involved upward movement through different society groups …. What a complete load of _________!!!!
Special Ops … killing freeborns …. Scientist castes mixing DNA….
A Special Ops member is so much more that this … what about throughout the IS what did the Clan’s Special Ops get up to …. I cannot remember anything written about this unless they are talking about elementals …. So again we are back to the Seventh being a one off …
As to the amount of people that defect from the Clans … only the writer of the story could make this determination … thus by 3051 a very small number, though over time, who knows, and when Operation Serpent reaches the clan worlds … how many people have received bootleg IS DVDs form Clan Diamond Shark Merchants … who now want out of what can only be described as a dystopian society …. Again this would be up to the discretion of the writers … but for me here and now when Operation Serpent arrives and liberation is at hand at least … a bare minimum 10% of the population to a maximum of 60% …. or somewhere in between …. your guess is as good as mine…but I am being bias here because I want a Civil War at this stage as I believe it would be a good plot development at this stage … rather than that which was given to us … which was quite anti-climactic if truth be told…
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 12:51 AM
66.74.61.223
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I guess you need to read what is there. The statement of moving up in the caste system was preceded by, We do have nations today where people accept they will not be higher then their fathers.
Now how do quotes show me a nation that has been isolated from other nations for a length of time with no contact? Psychiatry deals with patterns. How many settlers gave up freedoms just to survive? The way of life back home was left there for the most part. Do you revolt as someone tells you, your job it to dig and clean the latrine?
They are the leader, so your choices are go out into the world alone, without any help, or do the job. Which do you do?
And the others in the settlement would side with those telling you this, as they have their jobs to do. If one doesn't do theirs, the entire community could fail and all die.
The statement of this being the way you want your game to go is fine. Putting it up here is fine. But don't expect people will not tell you something is wrong with the facts presented. Otherwise, why not have Katherine assassinate Hanse and start the civil war before? Or have Katrina say no to an alliance? Or have Liao kill Hanse when the clone was in place. But that destroys the FS being top dog and ruling the new star league.
There are holes in the whole story line. That is not a disagreement. But posting a change of facts to fit a personal campaign?
Not sure what is being accomplished except trying to get a base to force the company to change to that view, or trying to promote being a writer.
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Requiem
06/19/18 04:42 AM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, we do have caste systems within our world, however, how many within such a caste system wish they didn’t belong …. would it be most if not all …. And would those also be at the lowest level?
Psychology and anthropology are so much more than this …… as to a one dimensional view ….
If you want your IS to go that way by destroying the FS, go for it, it is your game ….
For me I put up scenarios and ask for realistic changes in perspective …. That is also acceptable …
What is being accomplished … people reading posts and possibly implementing changes to their existing game to make it more that what it was originally a more exciting and hopefully more realistic game (if this is what you want) as it is for me …
As I said many times my disagreement is that the way it is originally written does not make for a good story it is lacking … thus I need to change it to make it something I could accept as a good game … the story is not and should never be considered to be canon … it should be considered a guide only as to what it could be … I am looking for different opinions that may lead me to think of new possibilities during the same time line
If others believe otherwise fine by me …
Examples would now include for the clan invasion war (note this is not to be considered a final list as it is much larger than this):-
Keeping the original sizes of all House units and not dropping them down as per the books… go back to the 20 year update;
A more realistic Re-formation of the Star League;
Allowing the FS Anti-ship missile in at approx.. the same time as the ‘Mech Arrow IV;
Thus Regimental Air Wings;
Thus IS Aerospace fighters Vs. Clan Warships; IS Aerospace Fighters Vs Clan Jumpships;
Insurgency behind the line fighting on Clan held worlds (lack of security by the Clans)
Eventually a periphery campaign – search and capture of clan Supply Depos – Pirating of Clan Supply Ships (restricting clan resupply Ships into the IS – a blockade);
Cutting the clans ability to call home – Find and destroy their HPG Ships;
More realistic Clan Vs. Inner Sphere on the ground;
Introduction of an anti-elemental sniper rifle;
A dedicated response to Turtle Bay – as Aerospace fighters now have an ant-ship missile – a plan to kill that one ship by the DCMS – by conventional munitions;
The introduction of the Com Guard in a proxy war – at the same time an IS counterattack into the Clan’s rear worlds whilst there off with the Com Guard:
A new Operation Bulldog (not one Clan but all Clans in the IS) / and a new Operation Serpent:
Then go into an Operation Serpent Arc-
Fighting in the Deep Periphery;
FC and DC Houses begin to establish bases / colonies on periphery worlds as they are also conducting search and destroy missions against the Clan’s hidden bases;
Once they arrive at the Clan’s Home worlds – attack its capitol;
Get involved with their civil war (Now IS + Dark Caste + Clan Wolverine) – may battles in space and on land …. Then finally … Liberate the Clans … end their tyranny … destroy the Eugenics …;
Think of ways the IS can interact with the SLDF Operation Serpent;
Think of new wars within the IS as Operation Serpent is still absent … involved in the Clan Civil war…
To me this is beginning to get there a story that would be more enjoyable that that originally written and a little more realistic …. Is this not what we all want?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 11:55 AM
66.74.61.223
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Even in a free society, there are a lot of people that wish they weren't in the situation they are. There is still issues holding some back, while others don't understand, they can not do the job.
I can agree with alot of that. But it does write itself into a corner.
Other then the jihad, what is the next big threat? Another civil war in the IS?
Invading the other states would be seen as the only outcome in this future.
Not sure where the Wolverines come from, but ok. the participate in it. None of the other alt thread even suggest the IS found and established diplomatic relations with them. So might be a hole in them.
The big issue with just attack the capital is setting off all the clans at once. I don't think the IS would be able to sent that many units with the jumpships needed, as it would destroy the economy of all realms involved.
But this is why the CC would have to be destroyed in the alt history. They would attack the weakened FC.
Now what is wrong with the eugenics? It is the training and such that is the harsh part. I don't see why you wouldn't continue it, but allow those people to decide their future. It is happening today, though I don't see explaining it would be a good idea. It borders on a topic some are not comfortable with.
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Requiem
06/19/18 07:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “….There is still issues holding some back…. “
And how many individuals and groups have not been held back but attack back …. Recent history alone indicates many.
Why does everyone believe that writing yourself into a corner is a bad thing … you must keep the wars going and going? This is quite unrealistic … we do have pauses between wars, then politicians do something stupid in the future and it is on again (we never learn from our mistakes!)
Why do we even need the Jihad as the next big war … everyone FC, DC, Clans are expanding into the periphery … border wars for now … then …. Periphery states wars …. We could have another Amaris even as people always want more power …
As for the Wolverines … they set up the hidden world and the secret railway to freedom … they then left as remaining would endanger all that they had created … thus they are still out there yet to be found ….. new plot … new explorer corps mission find Clan Wolverine (as they are not on Mars)
The issue of attacking the Capital is to set off all the Clans … this is the ploy I want … as for the number of Jumpships, again we do not have numbers it is up to the writer / game-master to decide what is available … so what one may say is too many another may say it is not enough
As for the economy … have a look at England WWII … how much debt they went into to win the war …. Or after the war Germany / Japan how much their economies prospered with opening new markets etc …. You are the writer, write your story as you see fit, though just be prepared to justify your actions to your gamers if they ask why this way?
As for Eugenics have a read of many of the scientific books that are written concerning the issue … it is giving an advantage to one group over that of another breading resentment and hate … as for training … if you had two children in the same classroom one normal and the other was provided with a 200+ IQ which would finish and have a better life above that of the other?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 10:12 PM
66.74.61.223
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There is one good reason to keep the wars going. Money. The writers and developers want that coming in. So that means wars.
If this is an issue, then don't support it. Just make your alt universe and stop anything canon from happening past 3025.
And I will assume you meant writing your self into a corner is not a good thing.
The education is already like that. But I have to ask. Would you prefer to hold someone back that is more apt to learning then someone else? The idea of no child left behind is great, but that usually turns into slowing down everyone to the slowest link.
The big difference in destroying your economy is there is no one there to help you get back out. Granted, that would be more then enough reasons to start more wars, as the IS goes back to the 3025 era, where research and building is using stone blocks and picks to write with.
And there is issues that some planets would revolt or join someone that could bring them in the supplies they need to just survive. Even if it is the CC. As there is some manufacturing facilities were upgraded or even built, the increase of jumpships is very possible. Doubt it would sustain your supply chain from the IS to the clans.
Cooperation would be needed for alot of it between the FC and DC as both are likely to raid the others depots for parts, and hurt the other.
I will grant you, there are less clan worlds then in the IS, so it may not be as large as the clan invasion.
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Requiem
06/20/18 07:57 AM
58.175.193.140
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For those writers who consider writing to the end of an arc as a failure, I can only say they do not have the imagination required, there are always possibilities and in this case the Clan Arc required a dedicated ending not the half-hearted and half believed story that was supplied.
As when ending a war you end it on your terms … not that of the enemy!
Children’s Education is an interesting topic, if you want to discuss this may I suggest another forum?
Economics … suggest reading macro and micro economics and the various model theories that are discussed. If your primary industries are military I can tell you the economy needs a great deal of work as a diversification of the economy is required …. Agriculture, mining, various manufacturing, banking, transport, community services etc all must be considered …. Yes some planets have a subsistence requirement….. so how does this affect the clan invasion … other that if the Clans acquired the planet they will now be required to transport the subsistence requirements … or will they?
Could they just leave the planet do die a slow death … the weak shall perish, only the strong deserve to live! …..
As for sustaining a supply chain to the Clan Home-worlds may I say, again, there is no evidence as to the size of each houses Jump-ship fleet it is at the discretion of the game-master only to make that call …
By the time you initiate Operation Serpent the Star League has been resurrected for the past couple of years, by now the FC and the DC have established a wary agreement to support each other … it may not be a great relationship … but it is a positive first step eg. exchanging ‘Mech Designs / Weapons Systems / Tactics that were considered successful etc.
Sorry but I disagree given the resurrection of the Star League the FC and the DC would not raid each other’s depots at this stage …. It would be more plausible they wold use a double blind, for plausible deniability, and get a mercenary to do it (and even the mercenary would not know they were working for either the FC or DC, just in case they are captured)
In determining the size of an assault force upon the number of planets they are going to attack, they will need to determine the forces they are going to be engaged against or the number of forces required to achieve their objectives. Necessity …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/18 02:44 PM
66.74.61.223
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The cold blooded nature of the trueborns says they do no waste. And they do not care about freeborns, especially those born in the IS.
The idea of having a service based economy on the clan worlds runs a bit counter to the not wasting resources. So amusement parks would not exist. Arcades would be a waste, as only warrior need to have those skills. Reflexes is the point here. The freeborns are supposed to stay busy supporting their clans. And there will be resentment here, but more to the point of some doing more then others. It would be more focused on the others, then the clan itself.
The only reason why the League actually was done, was to fight the clans with as much of the IS resources as possible.
Not sure how much intel the IS had on the clan worlds such as forces stationed there, or other defenses. The garrison units are another issue. The use of clan tech really made some units worth having. They are better then some omnis, with the down side of not being able to change out weapon loads.
As the clans tended to use half the forces of the IS and win, you would need double or more to take down the omnis. Then you have to deal with the garrison units as well.
So that does bring on the question of how many units do you need to do this? You can not wait for reinforcements as you would need to hit all of the clans at once. They may not help each other during the fight, but it is possible, they would go on the offensive to show up the losing clan(s).
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Cray
06/20/18 07:28 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
The cold blooded nature of the trueborns says they do no waste. And they do not care about freeborns, especially those born in the IS.
The idea of having a service based economy on the clan worlds runs a bit counter to the not wasting resources.
The Clans aren't utterly bereft of leisure activities - they have their Chatterweb, TV programs, and other entertainment. And their insistence on "only producing the necessities" leaves a lot of Clan civilians twiddling their thumbs most of the day, like the grossest examples of Cold War-era Communist under-employment.
Of course, that probably explains the size and durability of the dark caste. 
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
06/21/18 07:16 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “The freeborns are supposed to stay busy supporting their clans. And there will be resentment here, but more to the point of some doing more then others. It would be more focused on the others, then the clan itself.”
Refer The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky Pg. 59 under Welfare
“…. A basic tenet of Clan society is that the Clan will support you if you support it. ….. If you do not contribute, the Clan will cast you aside.”
“Every Clansman receives a “work target” and grade…..An individual’s grade determines the amount of credit available with which they acquire clothing, food, accommodations” … those who work harder … rewards …. Constantly below … grade reduced …. Even cast out of Clan Society ….
The Star League was to form a united front, consolidate forces, share strategies / technology etc … it was also created to undermine the Clans reason for the Clan Invasion to re-establish the Star League … though this did not work as they viewed it as a sham as ‘only they’ could reform the true Star League.
I would assume the IS forces had acquired an accurate picture of the clan forces on the home planets … captured Clan warriors “interrogation sessions” with the likes of DEST, Rabid Foxes and LOKI would ensure they got want they wanted …. One way or another ….
A secondary source of information would come from Clan communication ships (IS to Clan Home Worlds) that may have been captured during the Periphery Pirate Wars (refer to my Alt History – IS Forces with the aid of Periphery Pirates form small ‘wolf packs’ (refer WW2 Subs.) and hunt down clan weapons /spare-parts / replacement personnel etc depot as well as communication ships and re-supply Jump-Ship convoys etc - …. Ship a Hoy, Ship a Hoy, said the captain to the mate,get the cannons on the ready, were in business once again ….(and repeat to a tune …) - Approx. 1 year to 18 months after the initial Clan Invasion approx..).
As for the amount of forces necessary …. remember, by now how many captured clan machines will the IS forces have by now and are using them against their former owners … also by now they would also be using IS Omnis, so three-four times that of the original Operation Serpent? …
In a situation such as this they must help each other out … no choice (remember the original Huntress Battles)
As for the ongoing battles within the Clan Civil War / Star League Invasion (+ Clan Nova Cat) within / on the Clan Worlds I am still working this out …
At this stage to the surprise of everyone Clan Ghost Bear defects to the other side … is a good opening
How many Free born warrior units defect / remain with their true born overlords also needs to be worked out
Also how successful was initial the terrorist activities against the Clan’s Warriors by the partisans / Dark Caste ….
Plus many more considerations need to be worked out …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/21/18 12:36 PM
66.74.61.223
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As the Highlands romp in the periphery to hit Smoke Jaguar bases shows, the clans did indeed have forces like warships patrolling the route. I will grant those ships might be the ones they pulled out, but the Steel Vipers had some as well in that general area.
And the forces listed in the invasion where the attack forces. They did not include garrison units. Which included combat dropships, carriers, aerofighters and even additional warships. Another fact that appears to be missing is additional front line combat forces the invading clans had on the home worlds, as not all were sent.
Now as we found out, corruption was in the clans. So their would very well be some favorism, but even more likely discrimination. We know some clan leaders, not the high ones, but star captains and such, had some quirks about the workers in their units/bases. I want to say one even made sure all his techs were trueborns. Yes, he would prefer failed warriors over the freeborns.
With this, it leads me to believe clan tech isn't that hard to learn or their training is that superior. Failed warriors being techs within a month or so? But this would be another thread.
The defection of freeborns is an interesting subject, as Mechwarrior Horse, from the Jade Phoenix sage, didn't do so, yet he had all the chances and motive to do it. Yet his loyalty remained with the Falcons. Writers wanted it that way? Probably.
But there are alot that are supportive of their clan.
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Requiem
06/22/18 03:19 AM
58.175.193.140
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So they had warships patrolling their periphery supply lines …. now I have my big wing aerospace fighter groups armed with capital missiles ….yay, more target practice ….
Quote: “And the forces listed in the invasion where the attack forces. They did not include garrison units. Which included combat drop-ships, carriers, aerospace fighters and even additional warships. Another fact that appears to be missing is additional front line combat forces the invading clans had on the home worlds, as not all were sent.”
Book and page no. please …..
… favouritism, failed warriors over freeborn …. Racial discrimination in the Clans ….. training schedules … where is this going?
Horse was an interesting character … especially when he was ordered to form an all free-birth strike group, that would be used by the Khan to conduct missions that no true born would contemplate because the mission would require actions that would impugn their honour …. Hence, free-births do not have the same honour a true-born would have ….. yes this is very interesting …..
Can we now bet back to the original topic – regarding the ComGuard and that period between the 4SW and Tukayyid
With the ComGuard and the Clans fighting each other on Tukayyid, The IS forces attack the periphery cutting of their access to supplies / also returning those worlds containing military industrial complexes … as it has been shown they did not have the forces to adequately garrison all their captured worlds given the size of their invading forces – and I have yet to find anything regarding additional forces from the Clan Home Worlds ……
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/22/18 03:54 AM
66.74.61.223
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Eventually saKhan Weaver received permission from ilKhan Showers to bring forward Provisional Garrison Clusters (PGCs) from the homeworlds in order to garrison captured worlds and free up front-line troops for the next wave.
This is in the wiki under clan smoke jaguar.
They are not part of the units bid to invade, but still got into the IS.
Now the comguards getting units to fight the clans would have had to have alot of units moving around, as they would have to reform the unit, and send out units to garrison the worlds they were on. Which says comstar probably has a large number of jumpsthips, beyond what the IS thought they did. I doubt they would use commercial transportation.
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Requiem
06/22/18 06:06 AM
58.175.193.140
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So yes, garrison units did come in however in the third wave the wiki notes also included the following, “these PGCs were ill-prepared for the wave of rebellions which sprung up around them, supplied in secret by Theodore Kurita, ….” and again in the post Tukayyid notes …. “was able to quickly rebuild Beta and Delta Galaxies with reinforcements from the homeworlds. But, the two Galaxies spent the next few years in almost constant combat as the DCMS and Clans Wolf and Nova Cat staged numerous raids on the Jaguars. No sooner would the Jaguars replenish and refit one Cluster than another Cluster would take heavy damage in a raid”.
So again from a military strategic point of view – why were these reinforcements never intercepted and destroyed why were they allowed to just waltz in, no by your leave … how many and when – there are no writings as to this, again, just make it up as you go along …. If these forces couldn’t handle rebellions why not send in the regular army to destroy them ….? Again another plot hole ….?
Then we must consider what forces were found on Huntress …. So most were sent to the IS ?
How do we answer such questions?
Also it states that they were ill prepared for rebellions, why was this not written about? How may were destroyed ….. lets write it so that the reader must take it at face value ….
As for the number of ComStar's jump-ships we are again back to not knowing as nothing was written on the subject …. It is again up to the game-masters discretion, would you not agree?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (06/22/18 06:44 AM)
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ghostrider
06/22/18 01:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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Ill prepared. Definition is needed, as there is a wide range of scenarios that could cause this to be said.
The fact the populace did not just bow to the orders of the warriors would have them ill prepared to deal with it. Having them actively resist or worse, start bombing clan personnel would really have them ill prepared.
Why didn't the clans continue to use the warships in a more limited capacity, like removing the dropships heading to or from worlds? Why didn't they seize more jumpships to limit what the IS could do?
And the big question. Why didn't they add more clans in once they found out the IS was dezgra?
Each clan wanted the honor of being the ilclan, and thought it was dishonorable to call in such a strike. With the warships, it would have been very possible for the clans to strike at any production facilities the IS had that made these assets, including fighter manufacturers as well as training facitlies.
And they would have, as the fighter regiments would have them realize the warships would not be the only target for such attacks. Dropships would come under fire. It is the only logical conclusion from this thought. Then soon the tac nukes would be used on their ground forces.
The idea of the IS coming in to destroy the clans would motivate all of them to swarm those doing the attacks as it meant the IS would start bombing their home worlds. It is the logical conclusion to using them. They blew up their own worlds, why would they stop with an enemies? And by own, this meant worlds they could have taken in ground force limited combats.
And for the issue of numbers, there is no where that says how many of what type of dropships they had either. It would be unlikely they would have even hundreds of combat dropships, as comstar would not need such ship. Civilian ships would be more likely, even lots of drop shuttles, as their main movement of anything would be comstar personnel. So there lies a problem. And they would probably hire births on commercial jumpships to get them there.
So again. Even more holes in the game.
But then having those numbers out would ruin the feeling that the entire IS was just recovering from the wars. Another inconsistency in the history.
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Requiem
06/23/18 02:57 AM
58.175.193.140
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Partisans …. A para-military force …. Why do you believe they would not have plans in place ready to go once the go order is given … (similar to the resistance prior to the D-Day landings) ….
Utilizing warships to …
• Destroy IS dropships;
• Capture IS Jump-ships:
IS forces would have had no choice but go to the nuclear option.
As for introducing more Clans into the IS …. pride / hubris …. politics mainly the more Clans in the IS the less honour the IS Clans would have, also it lessens the chance of the current IS Clans to become the Il-Clan , and no Khan would want to give up their chance to that of another!
As for IS forces attacking the Clan home-worlds hubris and pride – they could not even contemplate the “IS barbarians” were capable of such a feat …. and in their narrow-mindedness this left them open to a counterattack.
With IS forces bombing the Clan Home Worlds I believe te war would quickly devolve into the Jihad, however this time on the Clan Home-worlds.
To keep it within normality IS forces would conduct multiple strikes against the Clans, together with an elastic defence as required. As for swarming, is not this against their rules and honour – would they not have to bid for the right / retaliate to attack the IS forces … and, how can you swarm something you cannot find once the IS is on the ‘Hidden World” ….
Clan Dropships … refer technical manual regarding IS / Clan Dropships / Jump-ships et al ..
ComStar Dropships / Jumpships …. They have the same access to the same classes of dropships all other IS Great Houses would have access to …. as well as those that were current during the Star League … their fleet size again is an unknown … again to the whim of the game-master …. so therefore I do not believe they would use civilian ships they would utilize their own (as much as they are able to do so).
Holes in the game … yes, definitely.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/23/18 04:07 AM
66.74.61.223
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More clans would react and demand to remove the threat to the home worlds. Not sure if they would go into council or just attack, as they are able to defend themselves without the councils ok.
Any sort of bombardment on the home worlds would cause a full retaliation of all clans. And go against the IS way of thought.
That is, the IS has been trading border worlds, for so long, they do not sweat it too much, as they will get it back in the next offensive in the area.
Swarming is against the clan codes, as one on one is the preferred way to fight. I misspoke when suggesting the clans would swarm the IS forces. I was thinking they would all rise up and hit them.
Once called dezgra, the clans are free to engage and destroy them as desired. Since the IS would be in the home systems, and attacking, that would mean the invading clans failed, and it is up to the home clans to do what the invading ones didn't.
Actually, the wiki has a list of comstar warships on it. It even says what time frame and even if WOB had them during the jihad. Jump ships. Well didn't see any mentioned.
The suggestion of using commercial jumpships was not saying they would send military units around. It was saying they may not have had to have as many jumpships as they could use them. And with just transfers of techs, the idea of comstar owning a huge fleet would have raised questions long before operation scorpion.
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Requiem
06/23/18 09:38 PM
58.175.193.140
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How would the Clans react to an invasion?
It all comes down to how good your attacking planning and intelligence is ……. and luck
(…. remember what Napoleon said ....”yes I know he is a good General, but how lucky is he….?” )
First you need to consider:-
Is this a surprise attack or did the clans have notice of the impending attack; (ie. what is their response time to the attack, which would then lead onto …)
Where they are being attacked (distance from defending forces garrison and the complement contained within the garrison)
Then you would also need to consider by what means they are being attacked ( ‘Mech, Infantry, Vehicle and Aerospace (bombing runs etc.)
Lastly who you are attacking – as each Clan has its own personality and this must be taken into consideration
Secondly you would need to consider:-
Did the attacking IS forces issue a Clan Challenge …. If they did so and attacked the Clans with their own rules and showing respect to the Clans …. How could they then be able to call for dezgra?
Third, what if you used you available Clan forces as your spearhead (Clan Nova Cat, Clan Wolf in exile etc) … if they are initially being attacked by the fellow Clan units then followed up with IS forces, what would they think then?
Possible the size and scope of the first wave could have confused them?
Possibly their IS Clans have switched sides?
Possibly the IS Clans are using the IS forces to conduct a Coup to become Il-Clan?
Could not attacking forces allow the defending Clans to ‘acquire’ fake radio traffic from multiple locations to confuse them as the nature of the first strike ….
Though in all likely-hood if there is only one local garrison they would defend, and if multiple garrisons would they not use their own Clan rules when determining the defence strength … for would not the IS use their own rules against them for as long as it is convenient for the IS to use them?
As for the Council …. Ask Phelan (Clan Wolf in exile) and the Khan and Sa-Khan of Clan Nova Cat …. They would have a good understanding of the people and the underlining politics of the Clan Council and as to their possible response … this would then not give the IS Operation Serpent forces an understanding as to what their (the Clans) next move should be … therefore you know what you enemies response is …. then you are able plan for a devastating second wave … there after though it is. ‘all bets are off’, as to the Clans response as the Council Chamber will become a shouting match as to what should be done next …. And it would be along party lines (Crusader Vs Warden)
As for rising up …. would not each Khan and Sa-Khan become pragmatic about the invasion … as per when Huntress was invaded … your world (or territory) therefore it is your problem – as I will look after only my worlds (and territory) … as the Clans are not known for working together to achieve a common goal …..
As for the response of Home Clans Vs. IS Clans …. Yes, yes they would view them as having failed …. and as they have failed would they not also view them as being weak … and if weak should not their territory (even their Clan) be absorbed into that of a stronger Clan …. So what I am suggesting is either a Trial for Ownership of a vital piece of land / factory; a Trial of Annihilation or a Trial of Absorption is even called for whilst the IS invasion is also taking place … for is this not the Clan way?
As for the size and scope of the Clan Fleet ….
Yes, if it was a small non-combatant force they would use a commercial transport … this would give them the appearance of being a common man ….
Though Comstar could have had a large Jump-ship fleet in comparison to the Great Houses – what if it was used as a non-military relief force (transferring vital food, medicine, doctors etc) throughout the IS …. This fits with their Quasi-Religious beliefs and would strengthen the common persons view of the benevolent Comstar holding the IS together … and would not the First Circuit want this image to be spread throughout the IS?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/24/18 03:27 AM
66.74.61.223
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Violating the challenge, like using multiple units firing on one clan unit, would get you declared dezgra. Most clans would have heard of the IS doing such things from the invading clans. The chance that they would accept is there, but not all that good.
The fake messages is a good example of failure to follow the challenge. The time and place is set as well as the forces on both sides.
And your timing is messed up, as Huntress was not attacked at this time. So having it as an example to the clans is impossible.
Same with the Nova Cats and Clan Wolf. Those events took place after the truce was done.
The war of refusal between the Wolf and Jade Falcon came about as the Falcons claimed they were not bound by the truce, as they took one of the objectives.
If not for trying to put Ulrik on trial for treason, the refusal would not have happened. So there is alot that would have to change in this storyline.
The attack on the supply line may well have kept the invasion IS wardens in the clans. This may even cause them to side with the crusaders in at least the defense of the home worlds.
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Requiem
06/24/18 06:17 AM
58.175.193.140
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The chance for dezga due to the preconceptions provided by those Clans presently within the IS must be taken into account. Those who have strong Crusader tendencies would attempt to manufacture a situation or declare them dezga from any initial combat. However if evidence provided to the Council that shows they violated Clan Law for their own self-interests … what would then happen to these Clans?
So yes this could happen. However I do believe it would have been factored into the overall strategy for the first two waves within the Clan Worlds by IS Operation Serpent forces.
The Challenge rules have no provisions as to ‘captured’ communications, as you said they relate to time and place and the forces used … So, how can you violate something when there is no rule concerning it? If they acted upon a captured miscommunication that is their error, quiaff?
As for Huntress is this not an example as to how the Clans Council would react to an invasion?
Making it invalid seems a little wrong when it is used as an example as to how they would operate as a collective unit during an invasion by IS forces.
Can you expand upon the quote regarding te refusal war and why it is relevant, as this could still be included within the overall narrative as not everything needs to discounted.
As for attacking the supply lines this is supposition, as it is up to the writer to determine the narrative, it could be quite easily be said that upon witnessing Clan Some Jaguars authoritarian rule
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/24/18 11:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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The refusal war would not have happened at this time. So suggesting the wolf in exile would advise or assist in operation serpent if done during, or immediately after the battle of comstar and the clans is invalid. I would say using the other threads and times of what happened in the future can not be applied to the current time line, but that is false.
I do agree the clans would not assist each other being under attack, but it is more of all the clans would react at this point.
So the IS forces would have to deal with most, if not all, at the same time.
For the alt line, it may be possible to get the IS to do this strike, but in the canon form, I doubt the IS would send that many units into clan space to wipe them all out. Intel on what clans and all their forces was pretty non existent for home clans.
And without a the road map, taking supply depots along the route would not help any, as one of the first things any clanner would do is delete the jump points they did have in storage, once they realized the IS was going to invade.
Mechwarrior Trent, the 'traitor' to smoke jaguar didn't get it until after the comstar fight, the IS would not have it at this time.
So that is another thing that has to be addressed.
The fake comms would be considered a breach in protocols as the stage is set for the fight. By suggesting you have additional forces, true or not, may well cause them to void the challenge. There is no place for that kind of deception for a trial. Once engaged, tactical ploys are acceptable, within reason. And yes, that needs some defining. Reason for one, isn't the same for another. I need to think on how to explain it. Maybe someone else has an idea.
Now if you don't intend on honoring the batchall, then you don't worry about it. If you do, then all forces that will engage are already known, and the time and place is set. Not adhering to it, may cause the trial to be void as well.
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Requiem
06/24/18 04:35 PM
58.175.193.140
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Why is it so unbelievable that a Wolf / Jade Falcon war occurred prior to Operation Serpent War, this is not Canon it is Alt. History?
As for a timeline … why do I need Operation Serpent at the same time as Tukayyid …. Would I not need Com Guard forces within Operation Serpent?
As for ‘more’ of the Clans reacting … they would only react if their holdings are threatened or invaded …. Also this could be part of the plan to fight all of them at the same time … why do you need to just pick on them one at a time as they did with the Jags.
As for intelligence on the home world – refer previous notes regarding interrogation / raids by commando forces / raid by pirate and wolf pack forces – I am convinced the IS would have a fairly accurate picture as to the Home World Clans forces ….. As would they not require this information before any attack plans could even be formulated and the fleet even dispatched to the Clan Home Worlds?
Remember the original Canon had the exodus road map wiped from the Jump-Ships computer when it passed from one stage to the next ….
However,
As for a road map …. Yes there is one with supplies …. Question: how do you send a HPG signal from the Clan Worlds to the IS and Back again? … so there is a line HPG ships that are capable of sending and receiving at the same time and there is a maximum distance / coordinates within each ship, so why not follow the yellow brick road of HPG Ships?
OR/- the IS had a spy that gave them the exodus road …. Could they not also prepare of an invasion in advance and establish a forward base of operations with supplies for the initial part of the campaign. A supply base that will receive a regular supply drop to keep Operation Serpent going.
Where is it written that Fake Coms are a breach of protocol? Book; Page No; Quote? … as this is a supposition again that I would be taking about unit numbers as I was discussing the overall purpose of the war – ie. to make the Nova Cats or the Wolfs the Il-Clan …..so honour is satisfied as to numbers in battle … it is about causing a mass destabilisation within the Clan’s Council Chambers when they are attempting to work out fact from fiction ….
So the Alt. History goes on … with the IS Clans are contained / destroyed the IS retaliates by taking the war to the Clan Home worlds … which will then end up with multiple wars within the deep periphery between the IS and the Clan Home Worlds and finally a drive upon the Clan Home Worlds to liberate them again (use WW2 as a template – Invasion – withdrawal – Battle of Brittan Stage – Africa – Italy – Russia Campaign – D-Day – drive upon Germany by two sides – ultimately Germany Collapses)
For is this not what the original template was to be, when you read the initial books and watch the TV series is this not what was planned before they decided to again become touchy feely with an enemy – The CC was to be destroyed and were not – The Clans were to be destroyed and were not – and as for the Jihad and the Dark Age can anyone really make any sense of this …. A WOB temper-tantrum and a blackout …. Very poor script development … it’s no wonder they never made the novels for the Jihad ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/25/18 03:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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The suggestion that the IS hits the clans in the periphery during the comstar fight, and continue to the home worlds is why I said the time line was messed up.
The refusal war and the other things were suggested, and only now they are added into the story?
To push it up, you would have to change how the clans came about forcing that issue. Which means time isn't there to get it all in motion. It started with the crusaders in clan wolf, then moved to the grand council.
So the IS forces would have to deal with most, if not all, at the same time. That statement should have covered hitting the clan worlds. Skimming the responses is starting to show.
It was stated the clans had HPGs on some of their war ships, and I would think they built some along the route. Now following a signal from the point you are at, and guessing where it went is a problem. Wiping out coords would be the first thing done in the event of an invasion. Well second. The first would put out a warning.
I would suspect they didn't write about the jihad as none of the writers had any units they cared for. It seems certain people were in charge of certain units for writing. Which is why they killed off alot of merc units. To avoid having to deal with the inventors.
Again, it seems points of clan honor and rules of combat are not understood. Fake transmission would suggest you are not going to honor the batchall as you have forces poised to strike outside of the ritual combat area. True or not, it is a threat that negates the trial. The fight was decided when, where, and what forces. Now you suggest more will strike elsewhere and can't figure out how this would break the challenge? Now if you did it while in combat, and only suggesting they were flanking or some such thing with units already bid into the fight, then it wouldn't go against the rules.
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Requiem
06/25/18 08:25 AM
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As stated before, an organized proxy battle between the Com Guard and the Clans will require the Clans to strip some of their new Garrisons of their military defenders. Therefore I would contend that with their reduced Garrison forces why wouldn’t the IS attack – and why wouldn’t they consider an attack throughout the periphery from FC space and DC space – linking up in the middle, with the aim of creating a buffer between the IS Clans and their supplies, that are contained within the Deep Periphery.
The only thing stopping them from this action is the Clan’s Warships – and as per previous notes IS Fighters will have access to Non-Nuclear Capital Missiles and big wings are also now being used (ie. Regimental Aerospace Combat Teams)
Stop thinking of my Clan Civil war and the Refusal war as the same thing, they are two separate wars that eventuated for two separate reasons … ok … I am not taking Canon from one area and inserting it into another time frame (as what would be the point of that?)
When reading the jihad notes isn’t it a bit depressing … might that be one of the reasons why it wasn’t written in a novel format …..
Again – Book, Page No, Quote and possibly an example why – where does it say I can’t accidently leak information? Just saying it is breaking the rules is not working.
As where did I say I was striking somewhere else? I said that the misleading info. is about making the Nova Cats or Wolfs the Il-Clan – how do you get from here to striking another location or to a flanking manoeuvre? IS forces are there and Clan Forces are there fighting so what’s the problem?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 03:00 AM
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In the wolf clan source book, it says that getting the troops to Tukayyid taxed the limits of comstars transportation section to the limit.
It doesn't say how many ships were used or what kind, but it does show they had a few, and not enough to move all of their forces. Technically, it could be figured out by finding the units and where they came from in the IS.
Granted, there was no mention of comstars warships being there.
Though I find it hard to believe they would not have them on station just incase the clans had bid them into the fight.
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Requiem
07/04/18 05:30 AM
58.175.193.140
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Having ComStars Warships on Standby would mean that ….
1. They have moved them from the periphery to the middle of the IS – thus in all likely-hood they have been seen and documented by IS forces;
2. If they are with the Comstar Fleet – again - in all likely-hood they have been seen and documented by IS forces;
Thus those IS forces intelligence agencies will be asking of ComStar some very uncomfortable questions – especially regarding construction and where they have been for the past 250 years etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 06:01 PM
66.74.61.223
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Timing may be the key here. Operation Serpent was using comstar warships to get to the clans home worlds. Yes, it is more in the future, but I want to say they had seen them before that time.
I want to say when they were deploying the mechs across the IS, they also shown they had warships.
And to be honest, for the houses to make their warships, they were using comstar to build the engines for them. How would they know that, if they didn't have working factories and experience doing so?
The shipyards around Mars would be a good guess.
Some of those questions are easy to answer. Most where mothballed until recent times. And that would be the truth. Not all, and not sure of when they started reactivating them. Could well have been before 3025.
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Requiem
07/04/18 10:36 PM
58.175.193.140
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The knowledge regarding warships construction and engines I believe comes from A Focht – post Scorpion he could have leaked the information to the IS Great Houses.
Plus he could have given their engineers access to the Martian Shipyards – not only for education purposes by also for assistance with manufacturing is my guess.
And yes they could have has a fleet mothballed and ready to go at a ‘moments’ notice – they did have hidden worlds – who knows what they could have had in orbit around these planets and from when is also a mystery.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/18 02:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Suffren warship in the 3057 book tells of comstar building warships up until 2949. Yet no one ever seen their warships before they were used to stop the clans?
There is one of the big holes in the story line.
The Fox warship was started in the design phase in 3050. They had to have the specs for the engines to even begin to proceed with trying to even design it. Yet this before comstars fight with the clans. 3051 the plans were finalized. So the IS knew comstar had the ability to build warships at that time. The fact they controlled the ship wrecking yards in the Sol system should have told them, some mothballed ships would well be hidden there.
The comstar only Magellan jumpship was an armed jumpship that was in the IS for a while. The fluff says most of their dropships and jumpships had HPGs on them. The fact they are armed, should have sent red flags up. And the fact it was in service since 2960 has a big bs written all over it. Yet the 3057 books is the first anyone has heard of it?
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Requiem
07/05/18 04:37 AM
58.175.193.140
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Comstar’s Magellan Class Jump-ships that were in service since 2960, and at the same time were armed, however this did not become apparent to the IS Great Houses until 3057.
Google the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran – a “merchant” raider of WWII – for all intense and purposes a merchant vessel that could at the drop of hat become a military cruiser once the disguise is removed.
So therefore what you have is a merchant Magellan Class Jump-ship that is also a raider once the disguised panels are removed /opened to allow the weapons to fire.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/18 11:32 AM
66.74.61.223
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Where did the information that the houses didn't find out until 3057 come from? It isn't the fluff under the Magellan.
Since the design is something other houses didn't use, they would be very intent on finding out not only who owned it, but any capabilities once found. As they were probably used to move comstar forces around in the 4th war, the 3057 time frame sounds off.
As for warships, there had to be at least rumors of them being spotted moving around the IS. Hard to miss them. Pirate points and such could lessen the likelihood, but not stop all of it. Someone was bound to see and get information on it.
Killing all that did, and had information is possible, but not that feasible.
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Requiem
07/05/18 08:19 PM
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The Magellan Jumpship
Page 100 Technical Readout 3057 – Dropships, Jumpships and Warships
In it it states that ComStar Introduced them in 2960 – Commissioned by Primus Adrienne Sims
Thus they most likely had a big Comstar Emblem emblazoned on their hull – making them inviolate ….
Sorry they were not used as a transport – capacity for only one dropship upon the Jump-ship – she is a deep space exploratory vehicle going 600 days and 2500 light years before refuelling.
So therefore yes the IS Great houses most probably knew of them but not their underpinning technology of how they worked
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/18 12:38 AM
66.74.61.223
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Supposition as to them not being used as a transport?
No written thing supporting this, and to be honest, why would comstar need a jumpship to move even 3 dropships at a time?
Especially when they were just transporting precentors and their guards.
And I do agree that they were deep exploratory ships. Most likely looking for the SLDF trail. And the emblem would not make them inviolate from attacks. You just had to make sure they didn't call out. I am sure a few pirates took some. Well besides the weapons fighting back.
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Requiem
07/06/18 02:14 AM
58.175.193.140
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Supposition …. Would you use a vehicle that was designed specifically for space exploration (and has only one docking collar) as a common transport vessel? … Me, only unless whatever it was transporting was of extreme importance to Comstar.
Why would Comstar need a Jump-ship to move even 3 drop-ships at a time?
Lets go back to what Comstar is and what they do in the IS – a quasi-religious order that upholds the values of the Star League.
Including such things as …. An ethical and moral humanitarian institution ….
Doctors without borders – Three Overlord Class Hospital Ships to assist wold be appreciative – especially within the periphery
Unicef – Food Relief – Famine Relief – hence bulk food carriers.
Disaster Relief – Engineering Vehicles to assist with Damage / repair etc.
Project assistance - Engineering Vehicles to assist with building water purification facilities / schools etc.
Greenpeace – Can you imagine a ComStar Zoo – animals throughout the IS and beyond?
All this and more to keep the true mission of ComStar hidden from the masses – also to maintain peoples good will towards them – also the reason behind why so many people from all throughout the IS with to be part of their Cause to return the IS back to that of the Star League
This is why the people would believe why they need so many Jump-ships to help save humanity via all the good works they do.
As for being inviolate … within the IS yes it would … in the deep periphery and beyond is another matter. But they do have a HPG so news can be sent home as to whom are attacking their ship / what ships are attacking them / and where – a good starting point for an investigation
They would also be looking for other things other than the Exodus fleet – lost human colonies (technology they possess?)– new worlds – resources to be exploited (this would also include food, water, metals, diseases, medicines etc.)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/18 12:50 PM
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The rescue operations would well have some of those resources on worlds, as travel time from a world to jump point, then jump, and travel to new world would be too long. Local governments would have rescue operations done long before comstar got into a system.
And a single dropship like a mammoth could cover a large chunk of that, but again. The government should have the resources do deal with it.
What it looks like, it would be switzerland being the one to send help to china following a major earthquake.
Now the costs of keeping fleets sitting around doing nothing. This would cause them to avoid having ships in service that wasn't being used on a pretty regular basis. Yes, they can rent space to others, making it less costly, but I doubt they would do so. Too much risk of someone infiltrating their ship and stealing tech. Even just copying or photographing it.
Now. One dropship while exploring the periphery? That is not really enough to search much in a thorough capacity, as it should be. Supplies for the jumpship is what the jumpship will use, not those attached to it. So the dropship would need its own food, water, spare parts, on top of shuttles, vehicles, mechs and other things they would need for a search.
Not that it would be needed if all they were doing was charting the jump points, but it is something that seems to be missing.
And Greenpeace would be against having animals in zoos. They are more to keep them alive and in their natural environments. But it is something others might do.
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Requiem
07/06/18 06:57 PM
58.175.193.140
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Kellies Heroes, …… “None of those negative waves Moriarty …..”
Rescue operations:- example … post Typhoon … takes how many months to repair a city? Example … Forrest Fire … this could also take months to put out depending upon its size? Example …. Earth quake / Volcanic activity …. Again months ….?
How many countries send in advisors / experts to assist other countries when they find them-selves in a crisis? – if they are close by why not send them in? - also Comstar could have them spread throughout their HPG facilities thus they may require from time to time new equipment, would they not, and how do they get their new equipment? Drop-ship?
Also Comstar cannot be compared to Switzerland for resources – they would have the same resources as any major House … so the European Union to help China might be more accurate.
Their fleet are not sitting around doing nothing … helping humanity is a full time job as we have a proclivity for getting ourselves into extreme problems….. that requires assistance to get out of this problem.
The One Jump-ship and One- Dropship policy – again we do not know how many of these ComStar have – An Unknown Variable again – as for the one Dropship – this would be a survey craft outfitted with geologist, botanist, zoologist + drill rig crew to get core samples + hunting crew + long range aircraft + photographer etc etc. all the people required to complete a dedicated planetary survey.
As for Food – the Jumpship specs came with 400 tons. – and depending upon their drop-ship type this could be increased again….
Errrr … Greenpeace 3025 could be into preserving animal species through zoo sponsored breading programs / education programs … as hunting could have done what to the local numbers …. How about putting a forum forward ….or even a suggestion for a new game …. Greenpeace “circa 3025” has hired your mech unit to guard the endangered animals on “ …….” World – they a quite similar to our Dinosaurs ….your adversaries …. Local big game hunters / poachers who go out in their mechs to hunt them then take them back as a trophy kill / medicinal qualities (like bear paws, rhino horns etc) … also the local wildlife could also pose a threat to you and your mech ….. remuneration good … you could be also saddled with an expert or two as well as a camera crew …. Fun and games ……
So no war, but an interesting battletech game ….. or wouldn’t this interest you?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 12:11 AM
66.74.61.223
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So the local militia would do nothing to assist in dealing with a natural disaster? Wrong.
Rebuild time and getting there with supplies as soon as needed, is a far cry from each other. The only advantage comstar would have, is knowing what is going on before the receiving end does.
A world that does not have some capability to deal with natural, and unnatural disasters is a new colony, or one that is very limited in what they can do, IE a world were all people live inside domes and environmental suits. And still they have something on hand.
The lack of numbers is why the idea of scouting the periphery quickly is an issue. Simple jumping out of a system only to have someone jump in a few minutes after you are gone is very likely when searching for some one or some thing. Only fixtures on worlds, or permanent stations would suggest there is something there.
And there is no real scanning the system to find where a force came in at. Scanner ranges are not that long, and that isn't adding in ecm, or even materials that are difficult to detect.
So when it is suggested there are so many that you can just send out fleets into the periphery without knowing your destination, remember this. No numbers. For an alt, you make them up. Defending it like that is how it has to be is the issue here.
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Requiem
07/07/18 04:35 AM
58.175.193.140
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Your world view is little slanted towards the negative …. of course the militia would assist, but if you were offered additional assistance would you turn it down just because it comes from ComStar – from either those on world or off-world, supplies that could be there in a month or more to provide additional medical / technological support?
With Jump points – have a look at the size of these …..
Reconnaissance in space is also about detecting communications … cypher decryption … and conducting a planetary survey – how big a fire / burn paten does a drop-ship leave behind when it blasts off the ground to obtain orbital flight?
Reconnaissance is also using your commandoes back in the IS to hack Clan Computers to see if a digital fingerprint can be found as to the location of their bases … remember even though they may have deleted it it does not mean that it cannot be reconstructed.
As for Fenrir’s fleet numbers let us start with 12 – Strawberry 1 to Strawberry 12 – this is achievable by any stretch of the imagination – what did you think I was going to send out 50 to 100 Ships??????
So it is achievable to establish – it has a clear mandate – it has a capable crew and maps – it has the best information we can provide – it has the ability to communicate back to home base with the aid of black boxes – we have the ability to have a reserve RCT and RACT unit on standby in the event it will be required in the future – plus it has the ability to slow or halt the clan invasion by denying our enemy replacement parts and personnel whilst at the same time increasing our own militaries efficiency upon the battlefield – it is an acceptable risk given we are at war and are currently loosing – thus something has to be done to change this now – only a fool would say no it is one of the only ways left for the IS to achive victory … so go …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 11:35 AM
66.74.61.223
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The black boxes, according to past posts, can only send so much. Not sure if this is an assumption or not. I don't remember seeing information on it like this. Also in another post, it was suggested planetary leaders would have one to continue to run if a coms blackout occurred. Then it was suggested it couldn't be used as such.
Contradictions are part of what makes the canon version get holes in it. The same is happening with the alt version.
The Fenrir fleets you are sending. What ships are they using? The monolith with all overlords or vengeance carriers?
And you are just going to hand them over to pirates?
The training in human psyche should tell you most would take the ships and run. Start pirating in another location.
And even getting those resources up, means denying your own forces the use of them.
The IS needed to do more to stop the clans, and could have, but didn't. The chose to sit back and deal with the threat like a succession war. You lose border planets to gain time to counter attack. Then you hopefully take them back. Tried and true method, for the FS and FC. Not so much the CC.
As said and agreed with, in a stand up fight, the IS loses alot of resources. They can still do it with sheer numbers, and this isn't talking about the mechs. The books suggested large numbers of vehicles would change the fortunes on the field. The issue is getting them down when attacking.
For your alt, what you suggest is fine, but it does not fit the canon information. Comparing the two is like saying Sri Lanka is a super power, because they just upgraded their forces.
Yes, that is extreme, but without the numbers, attacking others running on the canon side because of implication in the story, and the excess of the alt can't be done.
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Requiem
07/07/18 09:37 PM
58.175.193.140
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Re the Black Boxes – use the Sarna wiki search engine.
My Alt. History suggested leaders and military units should have them as a back-up – Canon just ignored the equipment hoping it would just disappear.
As for a Fenrir reconnaissance attack force – example – Strawberry 1
One Invader Class Jumpship
One Vengeance Class Dropship ( Fighters 40, Small Craft 3)
One Overlord Class Dropship (‘Mechs 36, Fighters 6)
One Triumph Class Dropship (Cargo 3,260 tons, Vehicles 8 Light, Infantry 4 Platoons)
(Crew is entirely FC volunteers – there is only one ex-pirate person who is acting as the Captains guide / assistant – and they have been vetted)
We are working on a hub and spoke arrangement here also with only one Fenrir Assault Attack Force in the wings that can be called upon if required – when security / the target is too great for a recon unit alone to penetrate)
Thus a RCT (minus the majority of the infantry) and a RACT
All Strawberries are linked into a communications net via their Black Boxes …
So again not a problem – why, oh why, are we going around and around the same merry-go-wheel regarding your points as to why is wouldn’t work?
QUOTE: And even getting those resources up, means denying your own forces the use of them.
So your great plan is this ….
QUOTE: You lose border planets to gain time to counter attack. Then you hopefully take them back. Tried and true method, for the FS and FC. Not so much the CC. and They can still do it with sheer numbers, and this isn't talking about the mechs. The books suggested large numbers of vehicles would change the fortunes on the field. The issue is getting them down when attacking.
You do realize your plan is that of a WWI General sending the troops (in large numbers) out of the trenches – walk across no man’s land – then attack the enemy trenches- all the while the enemy is using machine guns on your troops … how did that work out? … Verdun, Somme, Pozieres, Ypres etc
This style of fighting is not working and when something is not working you have to try something new and creative ….Can’t you see this is one of the major plot holes of the entire Clan Invasion by always using the tactics of the past and never changing the IS forces you are losing the war, and badly, have you never read about the mad English Officers of WWII and how their innovative tactics caused major upsets to both the Germans and the Japanese – Read about the Origins of the SAS in the desert and the Chindits in Burma.
FC - How is the counter-attack plan going … two years in and all you’ve done is fall back …with only one counterattack world attempted and even then if the Clans attempt to retake it in all probability you will be forced to evacuate. A head-to-Head plan does not work in this case … you have to think out of the box and not be limited by being in the box …. where is the clans most vulnerable? .... strike there ... they are most vulnerable with their long chain supply runs and the number of jump-ships within each of their fleets ....
Case in Point – Rommel – having to keep them on the beaches on D-Day – in this case in space or marooned on a planet with no available transport (Jump-Ships) – the Big-Wing Vs. Clan Warships / Jump-ships engines (as repair in space would take how long?) … thus giving you time to organise a counterattack.
This is exasperating ……. Why the fall-back always to Canon this and Canon that …. What I am suggesting is a rewrite and allowing people to make up their own minds as to which is the better game. By allowing a new group of game developers to rewrite and fix many of the existing plot holes and hopefully make it better and more realistic.
There can be a mark 2 Battletech it just takes the willpower and drive to make it a reality ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/07/18 09:42 PM)
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ghostrider
07/08/18 12:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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First. Why bother with an RCT? Use normal mech units with armor attached. Only one batt of mechs going, so the rest is useless. Leave them to guard borders and respond to attacks. Maybe even send them out to attack.
With this alt in mind, no one knew at the time the omnis were not all the mechs owned by the invading clans, as well as not knowing how many forces where there. They could have had full nova galaxies guarding worlds, and the omni strikes was only the attacking elite. Without knowing the exact forces of what you face, saying this or that will work is all guess work. Reading the books and seeing what the clans had and used, is a far cry from doing the fights at the time it came out.
The lack of numbers at the time, as well as no intel is where the big plot hole in the alt line comes into play.
None of the houses knew their were four clans invading with 2 reserve. The Dragoons did, but didn't say anything until the break in the war for voting for a new IlKhan.
For the alt, you can have the leaders crap dark matter.
Suggesting the entire writing of the game is wrong, just because it doesn't match your ideas, is the key here. No numbers means your basis for them being wrong has no substance. The writers knew, or made up what they wanted to. It is their universe. Saying it is wrong is the problem.
How long was it before the FS kicked the DC out of their territory in the first war? If I recall, they only did so in the second war. So two years in nothing.
Without the clans stopping for the election, and comstar beating them, how many worlds would have fallen as you waited until you had intel on them?
To defend against superior tech, numbers is the only way to slow down an attacker to find out weaknesses. Not a good thing, but look to the eastern front in WWI. It will eventually wear out the attacker, but it is not going to be light casualties for the defending forces.
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Requiem
07/08/18 01:51 AM
58.175.193.140
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Why bother with a RCT? – Tactical flexibility when attacking – you don’t know what you are going to find and on what environment the base is situated on thus a RCT will provide their general with a tactical flexibility when engaging the Clans.
Yes the IS does not know what is hidden in the periphery (deep or deeper). This move is a calculated risk in a deep strike reconnaissance … even if you didn’t know what is in the void you would still go, because your home and family is on line.
Again with the lack of numbers and intel? …. Again that Dog don’t hunt!
Steel Vipers were patrolling the supply lines connecting the Clan home worlds to the forces fighting for the right to lead the Inner Sphere (P. 86 Invading Clans)
Clan Nova Cat …. Won the right to participate in minor actions with the four primary invading Clans (P. 109 Invading Clans)
Question – where did I suggest the entire writing is wrong – what I am suggesting is that it needs to expanded upon to make what was into what it should be …… being a Critic allows you to have an opinion upon others work … have you never critiqued a book and an authors work?
Two years is nothing? …… Your understanding of military intelligence is lacking …. Keep studying and keep reading
You do realize when you are talking about numbers as the only way to slow down an attacker you are going into the WWI tactics of Attrition Warfare – the process of wearing down an opponent so as to force their collapse through losses in personnel, equipment and supplies – Can you really see this tactic as defeating the Clans?
Yes we won though is cost us 2 Billion people to do it …. Yay us!
You seriously believe WW1 trench warfare tactics will win?????
Invading Clans P. 110 under Learning Experience ….
Clan Nova Cat ….
• Discovered the importance of secure, well-planned supply lines by watching Clans Smoke-Jaguar and Jade Falcon falter at the end of the first wave for lack of materiel …
• Clan Wolf sure ahead in the third wave by virtue of an extensive, innovative supply system of supply. … a system of scrounging supplies from occupied worlds
It went on to add … When a lack of ready supplies forced the invading clans to slow their assault …
So, yes as written by your Cannon writers the Clan suffered as a result of a lack of supplies … thus if a dedicated team worked to slow this even further what then?????
You must ask yourself why was this point never expanded upon … again poor writing … this could have been expanded upon and made into a great sub-story.
So my plan to restrict Clan supplies does have validity - a pity it was never acted upon by Battletech Version 1.0 - though that will be fixed in Version 2.0
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/18 03:09 AM
66.74.61.223
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Trench warfare is needed when the enemy invades your lands, and you have nothing other then numbers to do anything. Not like you have a choice.
The wolves made forward depots. Actually so close to the front lines, the other clans were nervous any sort of counter attack would have access to them. Scrounging for parts? Do IS parts work in clan mechs? Some things like hip bearings and such, but the weapons and we know the armor, isn't likely. Ferrous fiber armor of the clans should not work with IS ferrous fiber. Yet there isn't anywhere it actually says that.
Units, other then RCT's, do get trained in tactical flexibility. With a single battalion of mechs, breaking up an RCT doesn't make as much sense as training a batt to do the same. 8 light vehicles isn't good for much but moving troops around and supplies. Against clan mechs, they die quickly. So this is all mech action. The RCT is trained to use the other branches efficiently. This would be a waste of their talents. Ok. Typo with the Triumph. The stats given are for the Fury. Cargo is right for triumph. Vehicle load isn't.
Might want to check out the succession wars, where the DC invade the FS initiating the 1st war. And occupied more then a few worlds for decades. So based on that fact, 2 years is nothing. And at that point, the DC was very happy to eliminate any that resisted.
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Requiem
07/08/18 03:49 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: Trench warfare is needed when the enemy invades your lands, and you have nothing other then numbers to do anything. Not like you have a choice.
Yes, yes you do have a choice, you always have a choice ….. sacrificing good people upon the alter of war will get you nowhere …. Remember war is as much concept as conduct ….and … a warrior shrinks not from Duty but neither does he revel in death.
Poetry suggestions:
1. For the Fallen by Binyon Laurence (1869); and
2. Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries by Housman, Alfred Edward (1859-1936)
Fixed emplacements do not work against the clans ….. RE: During the FC Civil War – The Jade Falcons Invade the FC …. The Book Operation Audacity … Sharon Bryan on Melissia …. And the outcome was ….. ‘bad’….. for the LC?
As for Clan Wolf’s scrounging parts yes it does say that P.110 Invading Clans in re to their Logistical Augmentation Program.
As for the RCT – this is Fafnir’s support unit not the reconnaissance unit ….
As for the Triumph so I missed typing in Bay 1 – 45 Heavy Vehicles …. Bay 2: 8 vehicles – you require a very fast and flexible reconnaissance unit that does not fight - in out sensor scan of the area only type of job this is what I put in here – the other 45 Heavy will provide the tactical support necessary.
Again – you cannot compare the length of time from one war to the length of time to another war – it is quite counterproductive … it takes as long as it takes to win that is all that matters…case in point the 100 years war -re the English Succession.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/08/18 08:04 PM)
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ghostrider
07/08/18 08:13 PM
66.74.61.223
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I would love to hear how being on the defense, you have a choice of defending yourself
How and where you may fight may very well be out of your hands.
Either fight, even trench warfare, or surrender.
It is that simple.
So surrender is preferred when attacked?
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Requiem
07/09/18 12:42 AM
58.175.193.140
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Please go to my new tactics post -
In particular I suggest that you research the following WWII Elastic Defence (also known as Defence in Depth).
Plus there is also a running defence strategy.
Or do you want the Spartan 300 only?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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