Rockdaddy
11/19/02 06:30 AM
206.102.33.50
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Instead of just vaporizing Outreach, why didn't Word of Blake just hire the Dragoons? Appearantly WOB has enough money to buy/build ships and armies, so why not just hire the Dragoons for their Jihad instead (or as a suppliment)? They are mercenaries after all.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/19/02 07:13 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
They are mercenaries after all.
"Yo, WD's, we want you to help bring a new dark age to mankind and subjugate the Inner Sphere under our banner. We pay well."
"Um. No. And now that we know your plans, we're gonna warn the Inner Sphere just like we told them about the Clans."
The Wolf Dragoons are not just any merc group. They've demonstrated morals before. Their Clan origins make them twitchy about nukes - while the WoB might spare Outreach to hire the Dragoons, Outreach was not the only planet nuked by WoB - and I suspect that siding with bloody fanatics like WoB would endanger their families and fixed assets on Outreach. I mean, honestly, the income from a little off the top of a planet's taxes completely overwhelms whatever the Dragoons can earn as mercs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lance_Hawkins
11/19/02 12:23 PM
80.203.33.226
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Wolf's Dragoons really aren't for general hire. They only take missions against the Clans it seems. They went to great lengths to stay out of the war of 3057 and the FedCom civil war.
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Karagin
11/19/02 01:02 PM
68.21.149.184
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First that wouldn't happen because the Dragoons would not work for WoB.
Second the idea you suggest goes against the idea FASA/WK/FP need to bring about a new Dark Age.
And third, it's better to toss nukes because then their is no chance of all the cool toys the Dragoons have (which really isn't that much) from coming back to haunt the WoB.
That or the writters wanted to reduce the "old guard" units and this was one of the easier less drain on their ability to come up with originial ideas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Moloch
11/19/02 01:11 PM
159.115.200.2
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Whats a good place where I can get some good information? I haven't really been following the dark age but after hearing the Dragoons get nuked I want to learn more. Dragoons were my third favorite merc group.
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Rockdaddy
11/19/02 03:06 PM
206.102.33.112
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So in other words they are not mercenaries...except when they want to be. Once again the FASA logic fails me. I mean how can they be mercenaries when they never let themselves be hired out? The tax base of outreach can only support so much and Blackwell isn't selling that much to the outside world.
As far as the nuking, I can see that, I mean why else keep links to the past? It's just one big unit after another being destroyed. Wolf's Dragoons, Gray Death Legion, the entire Davion Brigade of Guards and so many others have simply faded into none-existance (e.g. Snord's Irregulars) unless of course you start to count all the units that can make 'Mechs at will (Storm's Metal Thunder). I mean when pirates can create their own 'Mechs...well that's progress I guess *shakes head*
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/19/02 03:49 PM
68.21.149.108
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Try the WK page and their INN/ComStar thing use the map there hit Outreach and you will find out all the nice things done to Outreach and the Dragoons, also rumor has it the WoB dropped 300 nukes on them...which IMHO is a load of BS but that's just my take... 
That is the best place for info on MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/19/02 03:59 PM
68.21.149.108
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They hire out part of their troops...say one or two of the regiments, beyond that they normally rotate the troops...but you are right they aren't really mercs anymore they are more of armed businessmen.
No it's not progress, it's called cleaning the board of the old so the new can come in. WK doesn't need us when they have the 6 to 14 year olds and their parents pocket books to make them a small fortune via MWDA...which the more you buy the better your force is...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
11/19/02 05:40 PM
213.224.83.150
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As you may know, the Dragoons were mostly Wolf Clan freebirths who were sent on a major spying mission to examine the state the Inner Sphere was in. After they arrived they felt a greater affinity with the Inner Sphere and felt a Clan invasion was wrong. They also have been highly moral and have always tried to support what they percieved as the just causes in the Inner Sphere. The WOB is a bunch of dangerous religious nuts, anybody with some common sense and a grasp of good and wrong can see they are evil, so the Dragoons, being good guys would never join the WOB for all the C-Bills in the galaxy ...
Now that being said and done, who is the rocket scientist who came up with the WOB-Jihad-Let's nuke the Dragoons background ? From a storyline point of view this must be one of the most heavy-handed plots in the history of plots, ever since Twenty-pound-right-hand-Hrolf wrote a saga about himself having defeated the whole Roman empire single-handedly using a manicure set for weapons.
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Karagin
11/19/02 05:45 PM
68.21.149.46
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Seems that the word is that the WOB Jihad was FASA brain fart, something to bring down the arms race and try to bring back the good old days of 3025 era fighting...so someone at FASA came up with the idea that the WoB nukes and uses biochem weapons on ever one and themselves when the Jihad fails...
Funny last time I looked the WoB was still having it's own internal problems as well as dealing with Comstar and the Chaos March...guess they got of hold of the old mechs and TRAINED men grow on trees super space factory and where able to get it to work once again... 
Bottom line...someone at FASA felt the game needed to be shaked up and the nuke'm tell they glow idea came to mind... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/19/02 06:45 PM
206.102.33.1
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In reply to:
Seems that the word is that the WOB Jihad was FASA brain fart, something to bring down the arms race and try to bring back the good old days of 3025 era fighting...so someone at FASA came up with the idea that the WoB nukes and uses biochem weapons on ever one and themselves when the Jihad fails...
I don't care how many times the FASA/WizKids/FanPro apologists say it, I don't buy the idea that the Jihad as it is playing out is the form FASA had intended. For one thing it just leads perfectly to the MWDA setting. Then there is the way we don't get told that FASA had been setting this up until after people start complaining about what Weisman and Co. has done.
I think that stuff was in the works for WoB to do something in a powerplay, but not in the form it is developing now (nuking Outreach and the Dragoons as well as everything else in their path). I think Weisman had the MWDA stuff in mind and told his people to make the FASA stuff fit in with MWDA. So we get this horribly contrived history.
I didn't buy the hidden ComStar forces when they were first unveiled. I don't buy how Word of Blake can do the same thing and fool every intelligence agency there is. ComStar can't rebuild after Tukayyid even with help from Terra, FRR, FC, and FWL, but WoB can develop an army and a sizeable naval force in like 5 years, with fewer resources?
It's just all contrived and poorly thought out and exists not to move the game setting along as much as to set it up for MWDA. Frankly, I don't think anyone involved with the development of the game has a clue what they are doing. Between the poor planning, mediocre and uninspired writting, and just terrible art, I'm suprised the game has lasted this long. I don't have much confidence in the future though.
[EDIT: Spelling]
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
Edited by Rockdaddy (11/19/02 07:28 PM)
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Karagin
11/19/02 07:00 PM
68.21.149.46
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I agree with you 100%. And I think you are on the right track.
I posted my disbeliefs here and else where got blasted by cliche, but it is good to see I am not alone in questioning the silliness of the WOB Jihad and the course of the universe as it heads toward MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/19/02 07:38 PM
206.102.33.1
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It isn't just the WoB Jihad, it's just so much stuff.
The Star League is publically called a political sham and broken up? The Fed Com Civil War ends with the FC broken up and Victor, rightful heir just simply walks away from the throne and instead of reuiniting the state, it is let in the hands of a pilitically naiive girl and someone who has spent time in a looney bin and nobody seems troubled. The Capellans gain factories out of nowhere and are able to go on the offensive when just a few vears before they could barely field an army. WoB skims around 10% of the GNP from the Free Worlds League and nobody notices. Hidden armies that shouldn't be possible to create just show up, major players are wiped out in an instant...I mean the list goes on.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/19/02 08:08 PM
68.21.149.234
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For the most part I am with you on the idea that things aren't adding up. The part about Victor I can see to some degree...but even still they way it was done leaves more to question then it actually answers.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
11/20/02 07:26 PM
213.224.83.150
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I think the bottom line here was :
Major bigwig at Wizkids : We need to change the background so that it fits the original view of Battletech.
Former Fasa employee : We had been considering some political shakeup after the FedCom civil war, with WOB throwing a spanner in the gears and causing some trouble, maybe an assasination here, terrorist act there ...
Wizzkids bigwig : "OK, give me a background where WOB actually manages to seize power and reduces the Inner Sphere all but to ashes. You got 20 minutes ..."
Former Fasa Employee : "Hey, but WOB isn't even supposed to be able to take on the whole Inner Sphere, they are just a fringe movement and ..."
Wizzkids bigwig : "You got 19 minutes left."
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Karagin
11/20/02 09:54 PM
68.21.149.63
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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!   
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:31 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
who is the rocket scientist who came up with the WOB-Jihad-Let's nuke the Dragoons background ? From a storyline point of view this must be one of the most heavy-handed plots in the history of plots
Anything involving more than a few nukes is heavy handed. Being rid of the Dragoons with nukes is no worse than the First and Second Succession Wars - you're just seeing it happen and mistaking the sudden savagery of a one-way nuclear exchange for a heavy handed plot. I mean, honestly, is WoB using nukes any different than any other nuclear war?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lance_Hawkins
11/21/02 09:45 AM
80.203.33.226
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So you don't trust the words of Battletech authors and developers? Glad to see that. When someone like Christopher 'Bones' Trossen, who was the assistance Battletech developer with FASA, and still has that job with FanPro, says that the WoB Jihad was planned long before MWDA was thought up, I for one trust his words.
Course, I'm just a bootlicking WizKids appologist.
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Karagin
11/21/02 04:31 PM
68.21.149.149
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Once again you rush to attack when someone offers an OPINION of things that they don't like...and you wonder why folks don't care for hearing the apologies and such...glad to see that you are figuring it out. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 04:37 PM
68.21.149.67
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What is the point of playing the game if one side can toss hundreds of nukes and biochem weapons at the other in excess of just a single one?
Maybe TPTB haven't figured it out yet...a large number of the fans DON'T like this plot line and fine it to be a bit stupid and silly...but hey why let that stop them from going ahead with it...it's not like the fans buy the books and other items that go with the game thus putting money on the table for them...but hey they know what they are doing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:19 PM
12.91.117.156
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"Large number of fans" is not necessarily a "majority of fans," nor even "a game breaking number of fans." And assuming your opinion is that of the majority is a common mistake you should avoid until you have proof.
That proof, regrettably, is marketing data that will take several years to develop.
Out of curiousity, Karagin: How would you feel if Clicktech takes off and the WoB Jihad proves a smash hit with CBT players?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (11/21/02 06:24 PM)
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Cray
11/21/02 06:26 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
I don't buy the idea that the Jihad as it is playing out is the form FASA had intended.
You know, you can ASK the writers on www.classicbattletech.com if the jihad is playing out like FASA planned it. FASA's writers are still writing for Fanpro, you know.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:31 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
Once again you rush to attack when someone offers an OPINION of things that they don't like...
Yeah, so?
Rockdaddy is ignoring facts (Fanpro writers were FASA writers) to live in a little dream world where, somehow, the WoB of FASA was not such a bad man, and a new Dark Ages would not reign. He needs correction by someone.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:45 PM
68.21.149.34
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No sorry he is not doing that...he is stating that based on what has been given out the simple idea of the WoB making waves via their attack has become some thing of nuclear nightmare and all logic suspended or forgot.
And it seems that his not alone in this OPINION of the current direction of the game...but again that seems to be missed by those who have to rush to defend things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:48 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
No sorry he is not doing that...he is stating that based on what has been given out the simple idea of the WoB making waves via their attack has become some thing of nuclear nightmare and all logic suspended or forgot.
He who? There's two he's in this discussion.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:48 PM
68.21.149.34
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If that happen then BT is dead for me.
So far I don't see that happening and thus odds are NOT in it's favor...MWDA will have a good year or two but it won't reach the level that BT has been at...there is NO Depth to MWDA, no RPG side, no real tactical game no chance for the players to adjust things as they see fit...so I doubt it will happen.
And given the number of threads and such that are up questioning the WoB and the Jihad it doesn't seem to be that big of a hit with the players and fans so I am not worried.
Are you worried that MWDA WON'T be a hit? Are you afraid that all the money you have sunk into Mage Night Dork Age is going to be wasted?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 06:49 PM
206.102.33.41
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I'm not ignoring the fact that Bills and others who worked for FASA now work for FanPro and WizKids to "live in a little dream world where, somehow, the WoB of FASA was not such a bad man, and a new Dark Ages would not reign", nor do I need correction. I do live in the world where WizKids comes up with their reinventing of the universe and when people complain are told by those same writers that the WOB Jihad was planned, and coincidentaly leads perfectly into the WizKids thing. It seems just a little too convienent to me.
Yes WOB had something in the works, no one is doubting that, and maybe even something was planned by FASA as the next big storyline, but how much? Did FASA intend to vaoprize Outreach with nukes? Did they want to all but eliminate Wolf's Dragoons like they did? Did they want to have that one special guy in a "reeducation camp" that just happened to end WOB? How much of the storyline was planned and how much had to be reinvented to fit in with what WizKids wants, that is the question. Is the Jihad unfolding in the form FASA wanted or is it being influenced to fit in with MWDA, and to what extent, and no one has ever answered that question.
Try reading what I wrote instead of putting words, and intentions, in my mouth next time.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:55 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
It seems just a little too convienent to me.
The refrain of the conspiracy theorist.
In reply to:
Yes WOB had something in the works, no one is doubting that, and maybe even something was planned by FASA as the next big storyline, but how much? Did FASA intend to vaoprize Outreach with nukes? Did they want to have that one special guy in a "reeducation camp" that just happened to end WOB? How much of the storyline was planned and how much had to be reinvented to fit in with what WizKids wants, that is the question. Is the Jihad unfolding in the form FASA wanted or is it being influenced to fit in with MWDA, and to what extent, and no one has ever answered that question.
Why don't you ask the writers?
You can do that, you know. That's the wonder of the internet. Stop spinning your wheels and frothing about apologists and altered timelines when you can go to the writers and talk to them.
In reply to:
Try reading what I wrote instead of putting words, and intentions, in my mouth next time.
I read what you wrote this time, and last time, and the conclusions are the same. At the minimum, you seem much happier spinning conspiracy theories here than trying to get your questions answered from people who know the answers first hand.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 06:56 PM
206.102.33.41
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Stop over reacting and getting all melodramatic. I'm just asking how much of the Jihad was planned and how much just happened to be changed to fit the background of MWDA. It is entirely too coincidental that the Jihad as it is unfolding would just happen to fit in with the MWDA background, especially when those same writers don't start saying anything until after people started to complain about how bad the MWDA background sounded.
And I do have problems listening to those authors who wouldn't say anything unkind to their source of a paycheck. They say the Jihad was planned, and they might even be right, but how much was planned and how much was changed to fit in with the MWDA background. That's what's being asked, and that is what no one is answering.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:57 PM
68.21.149.34
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Rockdaddy...that is the he...it seems he has looked at things and came up with an opinion and it seem that folks like Oystien aka Lance and other, who don't seem to understand that a LARGE number of the fans DON'T like the current direction of the game OR want it in any way linked to MWDA are going to voice their dislikes, rush to attack or belittle these folks.
Now Cray are you defending their actions to shut down anyone with a different opinion or take on the MWDA issue?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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