Rockdaddy
11/19/02 06:30 AM
206.102.33.50
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Instead of just vaporizing Outreach, why didn't Word of Blake just hire the Dragoons? Appearantly WOB has enough money to buy/build ships and armies, so why not just hire the Dragoons for their Jihad instead (or as a suppliment)? They are mercenaries after all.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/19/02 07:13 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
They are mercenaries after all.
"Yo, WD's, we want you to help bring a new dark age to mankind and subjugate the Inner Sphere under our banner. We pay well."
"Um. No. And now that we know your plans, we're gonna warn the Inner Sphere just like we told them about the Clans."
The Wolf Dragoons are not just any merc group. They've demonstrated morals before. Their Clan origins make them twitchy about nukes - while the WoB might spare Outreach to hire the Dragoons, Outreach was not the only planet nuked by WoB - and I suspect that siding with bloody fanatics like WoB would endanger their families and fixed assets on Outreach. I mean, honestly, the income from a little off the top of a planet's taxes completely overwhelms whatever the Dragoons can earn as mercs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lance_Hawkins
11/19/02 12:23 PM
80.203.33.226
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Wolf's Dragoons really aren't for general hire. They only take missions against the Clans it seems. They went to great lengths to stay out of the war of 3057 and the FedCom civil war.
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Karagin
11/19/02 01:02 PM
68.21.149.184
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First that wouldn't happen because the Dragoons would not work for WoB.
Second the idea you suggest goes against the idea FASA/WK/FP need to bring about a new Dark Age.
And third, it's better to toss nukes because then their is no chance of all the cool toys the Dragoons have (which really isn't that much) from coming back to haunt the WoB.
That or the writters wanted to reduce the "old guard" units and this was one of the easier less drain on their ability to come up with originial ideas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Moloch
11/19/02 01:11 PM
159.115.200.2
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Whats a good place where I can get some good information? I haven't really been following the dark age but after hearing the Dragoons get nuked I want to learn more. Dragoons were my third favorite merc group.
Popular Bumper Stickers
“Keep honking: I’m re-loading”
“If you don’t mind, please eject now: that Mech is a **** to salvage"
“I ran out of room to stencil all the Mechs I’ve killed, so now I just go by regiment’s wiped out.”
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Rockdaddy
11/19/02 03:06 PM
206.102.33.112
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So in other words they are not mercenaries...except when they want to be. Once again the FASA logic fails me. I mean how can they be mercenaries when they never let themselves be hired out? The tax base of outreach can only support so much and Blackwell isn't selling that much to the outside world.
As far as the nuking, I can see that, I mean why else keep links to the past? It's just one big unit after another being destroyed. Wolf's Dragoons, Gray Death Legion, the entire Davion Brigade of Guards and so many others have simply faded into none-existance (e.g. Snord's Irregulars) unless of course you start to count all the units that can make 'Mechs at will (Storm's Metal Thunder). I mean when pirates can create their own 'Mechs...well that's progress I guess *shakes head*
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/19/02 03:49 PM
68.21.149.108
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Try the WK page and their INN/ComStar thing use the map there hit Outreach and you will find out all the nice things done to Outreach and the Dragoons, also rumor has it the WoB dropped 300 nukes on them...which IMHO is a load of BS but that's just my take... 
That is the best place for info on MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/19/02 03:59 PM
68.21.149.108
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They hire out part of their troops...say one or two of the regiments, beyond that they normally rotate the troops...but you are right they aren't really mercs anymore they are more of armed businessmen.
No it's not progress, it's called cleaning the board of the old so the new can come in. WK doesn't need us when they have the 6 to 14 year olds and their parents pocket books to make them a small fortune via MWDA...which the more you buy the better your force is...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
11/19/02 05:40 PM
213.224.83.150
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As you may know, the Dragoons were mostly Wolf Clan freebirths who were sent on a major spying mission to examine the state the Inner Sphere was in. After they arrived they felt a greater affinity with the Inner Sphere and felt a Clan invasion was wrong. They also have been highly moral and have always tried to support what they percieved as the just causes in the Inner Sphere. The WOB is a bunch of dangerous religious nuts, anybody with some common sense and a grasp of good and wrong can see they are evil, so the Dragoons, being good guys would never join the WOB for all the C-Bills in the galaxy ...
Now that being said and done, who is the rocket scientist who came up with the WOB-Jihad-Let's nuke the Dragoons background ? From a storyline point of view this must be one of the most heavy-handed plots in the history of plots, ever since Twenty-pound-right-hand-Hrolf wrote a saga about himself having defeated the whole Roman empire single-handedly using a manicure set for weapons.
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Karagin
11/19/02 05:45 PM
68.21.149.46
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Seems that the word is that the WOB Jihad was FASA brain fart, something to bring down the arms race and try to bring back the good old days of 3025 era fighting...so someone at FASA came up with the idea that the WoB nukes and uses biochem weapons on ever one and themselves when the Jihad fails...
Funny last time I looked the WoB was still having it's own internal problems as well as dealing with Comstar and the Chaos March...guess they got of hold of the old mechs and TRAINED men grow on trees super space factory and where able to get it to work once again... 
Bottom line...someone at FASA felt the game needed to be shaked up and the nuke'm tell they glow idea came to mind... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/19/02 06:45 PM
206.102.33.1
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In reply to:
Seems that the word is that the WOB Jihad was FASA brain fart, something to bring down the arms race and try to bring back the good old days of 3025 era fighting...so someone at FASA came up with the idea that the WoB nukes and uses biochem weapons on ever one and themselves when the Jihad fails...
I don't care how many times the FASA/WizKids/FanPro apologists say it, I don't buy the idea that the Jihad as it is playing out is the form FASA had intended. For one thing it just leads perfectly to the MWDA setting. Then there is the way we don't get told that FASA had been setting this up until after people start complaining about what Weisman and Co. has done.
I think that stuff was in the works for WoB to do something in a powerplay, but not in the form it is developing now (nuking Outreach and the Dragoons as well as everything else in their path). I think Weisman had the MWDA stuff in mind and told his people to make the FASA stuff fit in with MWDA. So we get this horribly contrived history.
I didn't buy the hidden ComStar forces when they were first unveiled. I don't buy how Word of Blake can do the same thing and fool every intelligence agency there is. ComStar can't rebuild after Tukayyid even with help from Terra, FRR, FC, and FWL, but WoB can develop an army and a sizeable naval force in like 5 years, with fewer resources?
It's just all contrived and poorly thought out and exists not to move the game setting along as much as to set it up for MWDA. Frankly, I don't think anyone involved with the development of the game has a clue what they are doing. Between the poor planning, mediocre and uninspired writting, and just terrible art, I'm suprised the game has lasted this long. I don't have much confidence in the future though.
[EDIT: Spelling]
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
Edited by Rockdaddy (11/19/02 07:28 PM)
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Karagin
11/19/02 07:00 PM
68.21.149.46
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I agree with you 100%. And I think you are on the right track.
I posted my disbeliefs here and else where got blasted by cliche, but it is good to see I am not alone in questioning the silliness of the WOB Jihad and the course of the universe as it heads toward MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/19/02 07:38 PM
206.102.33.1
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It isn't just the WoB Jihad, it's just so much stuff.
The Star League is publically called a political sham and broken up? The Fed Com Civil War ends with the FC broken up and Victor, rightful heir just simply walks away from the throne and instead of reuiniting the state, it is let in the hands of a pilitically naiive girl and someone who has spent time in a looney bin and nobody seems troubled. The Capellans gain factories out of nowhere and are able to go on the offensive when just a few vears before they could barely field an army. WoB skims around 10% of the GNP from the Free Worlds League and nobody notices. Hidden armies that shouldn't be possible to create just show up, major players are wiped out in an instant...I mean the list goes on.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/19/02 08:08 PM
68.21.149.234
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For the most part I am with you on the idea that things aren't adding up. The part about Victor I can see to some degree...but even still they way it was done leaves more to question then it actually answers.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rotwang
11/20/02 07:26 PM
213.224.83.150
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I think the bottom line here was :
Major bigwig at Wizkids : We need to change the background so that it fits the original view of Battletech.
Former Fasa employee : We had been considering some political shakeup after the FedCom civil war, with WOB throwing a spanner in the gears and causing some trouble, maybe an assasination here, terrorist act there ...
Wizzkids bigwig : "OK, give me a background where WOB actually manages to seize power and reduces the Inner Sphere all but to ashes. You got 20 minutes ..."
Former Fasa Employee : "Hey, but WOB isn't even supposed to be able to take on the whole Inner Sphere, they are just a fringe movement and ..."
Wizzkids bigwig : "You got 19 minutes left."
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Karagin
11/20/02 09:54 PM
68.21.149.63
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ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!   
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:31 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
who is the rocket scientist who came up with the WOB-Jihad-Let's nuke the Dragoons background ? From a storyline point of view this must be one of the most heavy-handed plots in the history of plots
Anything involving more than a few nukes is heavy handed. Being rid of the Dragoons with nukes is no worse than the First and Second Succession Wars - you're just seeing it happen and mistaking the sudden savagery of a one-way nuclear exchange for a heavy handed plot. I mean, honestly, is WoB using nukes any different than any other nuclear war?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Lance_Hawkins
11/21/02 09:45 AM
80.203.33.226
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So you don't trust the words of Battletech authors and developers? Glad to see that. When someone like Christopher 'Bones' Trossen, who was the assistance Battletech developer with FASA, and still has that job with FanPro, says that the WoB Jihad was planned long before MWDA was thought up, I for one trust his words.
Course, I'm just a bootlicking WizKids appologist.
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Karagin
11/21/02 04:31 PM
68.21.149.149
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Once again you rush to attack when someone offers an OPINION of things that they don't like...and you wonder why folks don't care for hearing the apologies and such...glad to see that you are figuring it out. 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 04:37 PM
68.21.149.67
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What is the point of playing the game if one side can toss hundreds of nukes and biochem weapons at the other in excess of just a single one?
Maybe TPTB haven't figured it out yet...a large number of the fans DON'T like this plot line and fine it to be a bit stupid and silly...but hey why let that stop them from going ahead with it...it's not like the fans buy the books and other items that go with the game thus putting money on the table for them...but hey they know what they are doing.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:19 PM
12.91.117.156
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"Large number of fans" is not necessarily a "majority of fans," nor even "a game breaking number of fans." And assuming your opinion is that of the majority is a common mistake you should avoid until you have proof.
That proof, regrettably, is marketing data that will take several years to develop.
Out of curiousity, Karagin: How would you feel if Clicktech takes off and the WoB Jihad proves a smash hit with CBT players?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (11/21/02 06:24 PM)
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Cray
11/21/02 06:26 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
I don't buy the idea that the Jihad as it is playing out is the form FASA had intended.
You know, you can ASK the writers on www.classicbattletech.com if the jihad is playing out like FASA planned it. FASA's writers are still writing for Fanpro, you know.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:31 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
Once again you rush to attack when someone offers an OPINION of things that they don't like...
Yeah, so?
Rockdaddy is ignoring facts (Fanpro writers were FASA writers) to live in a little dream world where, somehow, the WoB of FASA was not such a bad man, and a new Dark Ages would not reign. He needs correction by someone.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:45 PM
68.21.149.34
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No sorry he is not doing that...he is stating that based on what has been given out the simple idea of the WoB making waves via their attack has become some thing of nuclear nightmare and all logic suspended or forgot.
And it seems that his not alone in this OPINION of the current direction of the game...but again that seems to be missed by those who have to rush to defend things.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:48 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
No sorry he is not doing that...he is stating that based on what has been given out the simple idea of the WoB making waves via their attack has become some thing of nuclear nightmare and all logic suspended or forgot.
He who? There's two he's in this discussion.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:48 PM
68.21.149.34
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If that happen then BT is dead for me.
So far I don't see that happening and thus odds are NOT in it's favor...MWDA will have a good year or two but it won't reach the level that BT has been at...there is NO Depth to MWDA, no RPG side, no real tactical game no chance for the players to adjust things as they see fit...so I doubt it will happen.
And given the number of threads and such that are up questioning the WoB and the Jihad it doesn't seem to be that big of a hit with the players and fans so I am not worried.
Are you worried that MWDA WON'T be a hit? Are you afraid that all the money you have sunk into Mage Night Dork Age is going to be wasted?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 06:49 PM
206.102.33.41
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I'm not ignoring the fact that Bills and others who worked for FASA now work for FanPro and WizKids to "live in a little dream world where, somehow, the WoB of FASA was not such a bad man, and a new Dark Ages would not reign", nor do I need correction. I do live in the world where WizKids comes up with their reinventing of the universe and when people complain are told by those same writers that the WOB Jihad was planned, and coincidentaly leads perfectly into the WizKids thing. It seems just a little too convienent to me.
Yes WOB had something in the works, no one is doubting that, and maybe even something was planned by FASA as the next big storyline, but how much? Did FASA intend to vaoprize Outreach with nukes? Did they want to all but eliminate Wolf's Dragoons like they did? Did they want to have that one special guy in a "reeducation camp" that just happened to end WOB? How much of the storyline was planned and how much had to be reinvented to fit in with what WizKids wants, that is the question. Is the Jihad unfolding in the form FASA wanted or is it being influenced to fit in with MWDA, and to what extent, and no one has ever answered that question.
Try reading what I wrote instead of putting words, and intentions, in my mouth next time.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 06:55 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
It seems just a little too convienent to me.
The refrain of the conspiracy theorist.
In reply to:
Yes WOB had something in the works, no one is doubting that, and maybe even something was planned by FASA as the next big storyline, but how much? Did FASA intend to vaoprize Outreach with nukes? Did they want to have that one special guy in a "reeducation camp" that just happened to end WOB? How much of the storyline was planned and how much had to be reinvented to fit in with what WizKids wants, that is the question. Is the Jihad unfolding in the form FASA wanted or is it being influenced to fit in with MWDA, and to what extent, and no one has ever answered that question.
Why don't you ask the writers?
You can do that, you know. That's the wonder of the internet. Stop spinning your wheels and frothing about apologists and altered timelines when you can go to the writers and talk to them.
In reply to:
Try reading what I wrote instead of putting words, and intentions, in my mouth next time.
I read what you wrote this time, and last time, and the conclusions are the same. At the minimum, you seem much happier spinning conspiracy theories here than trying to get your questions answered from people who know the answers first hand.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 06:56 PM
206.102.33.41
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Stop over reacting and getting all melodramatic. I'm just asking how much of the Jihad was planned and how much just happened to be changed to fit the background of MWDA. It is entirely too coincidental that the Jihad as it is unfolding would just happen to fit in with the MWDA background, especially when those same writers don't start saying anything until after people started to complain about how bad the MWDA background sounded.
And I do have problems listening to those authors who wouldn't say anything unkind to their source of a paycheck. They say the Jihad was planned, and they might even be right, but how much was planned and how much was changed to fit in with the MWDA background. That's what's being asked, and that is what no one is answering.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:57 PM
68.21.149.34
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Rockdaddy...that is the he...it seems he has looked at things and came up with an opinion and it seem that folks like Oystien aka Lance and other, who don't seem to understand that a LARGE number of the fans DON'T like the current direction of the game OR want it in any way linked to MWDA are going to voice their dislikes, rush to attack or belittle these folks.
Now Cray are you defending their actions to shut down anyone with a different opinion or take on the MWDA issue?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 06:59 PM
68.21.149.34
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Cary why are you so against him having his opinion?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:01 PM
206.102.33.41
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OK, let me get this right...
Because I'm asking a question that no one has been willing to answer, and because I have doubts, I'm a conspiracy theorist. Riiiigggghhhhtttt.
Duck, dodge, and belittle. Now there is a great reply to any question that can't be answered.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:01 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
And given the number of threads and such that are up questioning the WoB and the Jihad it doesn't seem to be that big of a hit with the players and fans so I am not worried
It's no different than D20 D&D. Same level of griping about how everyone's going to despise it, the game is dead to them, cats and dogs are living together, yada yada yada. The D&D boards and newsgroups were filled with D20 bashers and they still pop-up.
Posts on the internet are from people with strong enough feelings about the matter to post. People who are lukewarm to the new idea or happy with it usually don't - the internet is filled with axe grinders well out of proportion to their actual percentage in the population.
In reply to:
there is NO Depth to MWDA, no RPG side, no real tactical game
Well, duh. It just launched. It took 2-3 years to get out the first MW RPG after BT was first published.
In reply to:
Are you worried that MWDA WON'T be a hit? Are you afraid that all the money you have sunk into Mage Night Dork Age is going to be wasted?
Very. The health of CBT is dependent on MWDA. If BT takes another hit, there's going to be another massive player defection that will probably kill Fanpro's income.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:02 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
Cary why are you so against him having his opinion?
Karagin, why are you so against me having my opinion?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:03 PM
68.21.149.34
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Glad to see your postion on this...and you know mine...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:03 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
Now Cray are you defending their actions to shut down anyone with a different opinion or take on the MWDA issue?
Now Karagin are you defending the illogical naysayers with a different opinion or take on the MWDA issue?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:05 PM
68.21.149.34
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I'm not...I am against you and those of the cliche attacking those who happen to NOT have the same feel good and love it opinion that seems to be the only one allowed about MWDA.
You seems to being do the same thing Lance is by telling Rockdaddy he is not correct in how he came up with his opinion.
That is what I am against...so how about backing off and let folks have opinions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:07 PM
68.21.149.34
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First they are not illogical and yes I am. Mainly because of the folks who keep attacking ANYONE who has a different opinion.
So where is your stance? Are you fully supporting MWDA by buying everything that they have put out?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:08 PM
68.21.149.34
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Seems to be the standard operating procedure for them...you kind of get use to it after awhile...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:09 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
Because I'm asking a question that no one has been willing to answer, and because I have doubts, I'm a conspiracy theorist. Riiiigggghhhhtttt.
Oh, no. No, no.
You're a conspiracy theorist because you don't actually ask the writers. You're "boldly" asking your questions where you'll never be heard by anyone who can give you the answers. You're hiding out here, apparently refusing to go to the Wizkids board and using those wonderful e-mail links, or go to the Fanpro CBT board and use the "ask the writers" forum where you can get your questions answered.
Are you just going to keep huddling here and hope the game writers bother to show up and pay attention to you, or are you going to seek some answers?
The writers and even the line developer frequent www.classicbattletech.com. There's a forum there where you can talk to the Line Developer (rather inactive, that forum) and one where you can talk to the writers (moderated, but it receives frequent attention from the writers).
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:11 PM
206.102.33.41
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I refuse to post at CBT.com. I'm a paying customer and I have been talked to one too many times in a disrespectful tone by their "employees" [read: moderators]. I have spoken to Bills about it on several occasions, but nothing has changed.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:12 PM
68.21.149.34
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What a load of BS...this question has come up on CBT and NEVER been aswered...and give how many of the same folks who are ON CBT are at all of the other boards that CAN give answers they normally won't since they claim their NDA prevents them from doing so.
SO how about YOU get the facts right this time around. The question has been asked by others and ignored. Just as it's is now.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:12 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
I am against you and those of the cliche attacking those who happen to NOT have the same feel good and love it opinion that seems to be the only one allowed about MWDA.
Oh, no. I'm against lies and miscomprehensions and misunderstandings. If all those are corrected and MWDA is still disliked - fine.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:13 PM
206.102.33.41
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I have emailed them, and gotten no response. I won't post at the CBT site because I deserve better as a paying customer than to be treated like I have been by their moderators.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:15 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
I have emailed them, and gotten no response. I won't post at the CBT site because I deserve better as a paying customer than to be treated like I have been by their moderators.
Heh. Well, that says a lot. Just how hot were you flaming away over there?
Could you give me a rational sampling of your questions? I'd be happy to ask them. Just point by point, no explanations or baggage.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:17 PM
68.21.149.34
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What lies? I have yet to see those...unless they are coming from the other end.
As for the rest...misunderstanding are going to happen...miscomprehensions are a two way street..
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:18 PM
68.21.149.34
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No one is flamming...the only flames are from you and Lance...nice how it's always the one who happens to question things that is one who is to blame for the flame war...I love how you have picked on up that illogical thinking Cray...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:19 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
What lies? I have yet to see those...
The most common one seems to be "MWDA is a collectible game; you HAVE to buy minis to play," despite evidence to the contrary. You can print out clicktech mini stats on paper. I bet a modified CBT infantry sheet would work great.
In reply to:
As for the rest...misunderstanding are going to happen...miscomprehensions are a two way street..
Yep, yep. Miscommunication is the root of most evil in the office.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:21 PM
206.102.33.41
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I have never flamed or even posted anything disrespectful at anyone. (I only made 5 posts total at CBT) Warner had exploded at someone over something trivial and I told him not to overreact. He went off on me. I told Bills and nothing changed. I won't be back as long as he's in charge over there.
You have the questions here to ask.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:24 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
No one is flamming...the only flames are from you and Lance...I love how you have picked on up that illogical thinking Cray...
Actually, I'd count that as a flame, so add yourself to the flamers list.
And I wasn't flaming in the post you replied to, Karagin. I was honestly curious what Rockdaddy had done to annoy the mods on CBT - I had to push pretty hard last night to get them irked at me. There's at least one mod bashing MWDA on CBT right now, not to mention a lot of regular posters questioning MWDA without rebukes, so it's a legitimate question: what did Rockdaddy do to get mistreated by CBT's mods?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:26 PM
68.21.149.34
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Prove your first comment...given that the game is point based one DOES NEED everything in order to have a chance of winning...and sorry but printed stats don't seem to be offical from what has said it has to be the dial...
So can you actually prove that you don't need everything in order to play? This I would like to see in person...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:28 PM
68.21.149.34
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Given how some of the mods let their personal dislike effect things I would bet that had something to do with it...
And the end results are what we see now...folks NOT going there do to the behavior and actions of the moderators.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:28 PM
206.102.33.41
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I told Warner not to overreact at some poster he exploded at.
What a bastard I am.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:31 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
I have never flamed or even posted anything disrespectful at anyone. (I only made 5 posts total at CBT) Warner had exploded at someone over something trivial and I told him not to overreact. He went off on me.
Warner goes off on everyone. He overreacts to everything - don't let one freaky admin scare you off from the excellent BT debate on every other topic on CBT. There's more out there than just MWDA - designs to critique, trivia to answer, etc.
And Randall Bills isn't exactly a mod or sysadmin, and seems to be Warner's buddy. Wrong person to complain to.
In reply to:
You have the questions here to ask.
Thhhpppt. An itemized list is easier to work with. Besides, I need to go over them with you - I want to rephrase them in my words so Warner doesn't jump on me but make sure I don't lose what you were trying to say.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:33 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
I told Warner not to overreact at some poster he exploded at.
What a bastard I am.
Disgusting. You DARED question The Warner?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:34 PM
68.21.149.34
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And the same results happen... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:35 PM
206.102.33.41
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Bills was the only person I knew to talk to who was over Warner. I told him I am a paying customer and as such I won't be talked to in that manner on the company website, any more than I would be talked to by a clerk in a storefront.
I don't have to put up with it, and I won't.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Karagin
11/21/02 07:40 PM
68.21.149.34
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Which is your right and there are others who agree with you on this issue.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/21/02 07:42 PM
12.91.117.156
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I'm not sure that Warner is actually paid by Fanpro or Wizkids. Actually, I don't think a lot of the mods are - there was certainly no paycheck in the offer for me to be a CBT mod. (I passed on the offer because - gasp - I didn't think I could maintain what I considered impartiality appropriate to a mod.) Is the clerk analogy applicable when you're just dealing with an enthusiastic volunteer?
Well, if you care to tally them, I'll take a stab at getting your Q's answered.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:49 PM
206.102.33.41
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Whether he is a paid employee or not is irrelevent. he is an agent of the company, and the most visable representative at that.
Now the question is: How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces that they logically shouldn't have, etc...), is what FASA intended, and how much of it is being dictated from above in order to fit in with the MWDA storyline? What has been changed and what did FASA want?
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 07:51 PM
206.102.33.41
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I think that's probably closer to the truth than we would like...and funny to boot!
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 08:08 PM
12.91.117.156
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A poster asked in the "Ask the Writer Forum" in the thread "What was the Original Outcome of the Jihad":
In reply to:
I've been wondering about this one for a while, and I remember Bones mentioning elsewhere that the jihad and many of the events during it were planned out well before FASA went under, so my question is: What was original outcome planned for the jihad? Obviously, MW:DA must have substantially changed it, so I'm curious as to what the original direction was.
Chris Hartford (AT2's writer) replied:
In reply to:
MW:DA has changed some elements planned for the Jihad, but not all of them and as such we can't really reveal the original outcome (or many of the its elements) without giving away some of the as-yet unknown parts of the story
Another poster responded to the original question:
In reply to:
That would be nice to hear at some point in the future.
Plus it'll give a bunch of nuts a reason to argue again about how DA "messed everything up". That'll be a great flame war.
The best part would be the application to alternate-storyline campaigns run by players. An interesting look into what it coulda been
To which Chris Trossen replied:
In reply to:
The trick is twofold.
First, ya gotta wait 'till we're done telling the story of the Jihad.
Then you gotta find one of us at a con or something and feed us and get us free drinks all night.
(and not that crappy rail booze either)
*Then* you might just get the real info, from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
Chris "Bones" Trossen
I'll forward your question. Actually, I'll do it verbatim since it seems well phrased, with a few additions to separate it from Mr. Kiasu's question about the "original outcome," which is somewhat different.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
11/21/02 08:13 PM
12.91.117.156
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As for the hidden armies, those are fairly logical. WoB had enormous resources: Terra, which has the military industries of any Successor State up to c3050; Terra, which has 6 billion people at least somewhat innoculated in Comstar doctrine for over 2 centuries and thus a ready pool of soldiers; Terra, which has all the old Star League's knowledge; the Solar System, with its massive industrial and shipbuilding capacity; a significant cut of the federal income of the Free Worlds League and its hundred of billions of people; and ~15 years since the Schism to start mustering forces in the FWL.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/21/02 08:32 PM
206.102.33.128
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ComStar couldn't rebuild after Tukkayyid with Terra, and the help of FRR, DC, and Fed Com, but WoB can, even when FWL was busy with rebuilding after retaking thier losses from the 4th Suc. War and a devastating campaign for Terra?
Seems more like writer fiat to me.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/21/02 08:37 PM
12.91.117.156
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In reply to:
ComStar couldn't rebuild after Tukkayyid with Terra, and the help of FRR, DC, and Fed Com, but WoB can, even when FWL was busy with rebuilding after retaking thier losses from the 4th Suc. War and a devastating campaign for Terra?
Now that's a fascinating point I'm going to have to ponder a while.
Umm. WoB had a bigger tax base by skimming so much off the FWL, and Comstar was too nice to do that?
Well. I'm going to have to think about this. Within logic, it's BS that Comstar didn't rebuild with those resources. Within canon, it's BS that WoB did. Pondering, pondering.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Warner_Doles
11/21/02 10:04 PM
206.27.48.9
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Whether he is a paid employee or not is irrelevent. he is an agent of the company, and the most visable representative at that.
Correct. I am and that means I am accountable and I have a responsibility to ensure that others are taken care of on that message board. Now I went through the only 8 posts left of yours on the board (those that remained haven't been system purged yet) out of 67 posts you made. In those last 8 posts we did not once have any interaction. Your posts listed were from 3/21/02 to 4/20/02. Now if we interacted there is no record of it. Though its over 7 months ago and I don't remember you and I disagreeing. That doesn't mean we hadn't though.
Now if I hurt your feelings or caused you pain or problems in any way with a perceived slight on my part, then I humbly apologize. I don't remember having any type of discussion with you on this. The only one that I had with was incrible who has always been a thorn in my side from RGM. It happened as a results of my calling down Durango over something he said that I didn't like to a moderator. That has since been cleared up between Durango and I.
I'm not afraid to admit when I am wrong or have wrong someone, so I do apologize for any problem I may have caused you.
That being said, I will answer your questions here for you.
How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces that they logically shouldn't have, etc...), is what FASA intended,
All of it. Every last hidden unit, nuclear weapon, stolen Warship, posion gas and filthy bullet the wobbies fired. This was set in stone at the end of 1999.
and how much of it is being dictated from above in order to fit in with the MWDA storyline?
Not allot really. Chris Hartford really answered this question the best. Its in this thread too. The plot line was modified to allow for some changes that would enhance the Jihad yes. But I am not allowed to go any further than that.
What has been changed and what did FASA want?
That depends on what you quantify as "changed." Was it changed? Yes. How much, well lets say its longer then it originally was. But the base premise of the Jihad is still the same.
The Dragoons were attacked, their fleet that was there was destroyed. Remus was destroyed by nuclear weapons? Yes. Were the Dragoons themselves nuked? No. Romulus was bombarded from orbit by naval weapons. But no nuclear weapons were used on the Dragoons themselves at any time. The full story on what happened on Outreach will be told and once you and everyone see it, then you'll truly understand how it happened. Believe or accept it? Well that's up to you all. I would hope that you all would!
Allot of the what happened is being released on WizKids' ComStar site in the interactive map. All 250 worlds will be listed and each one will tell their part of the Jihad story. Yet the full uncut version will be coming from us.
The story isn't going to be contrieved or "made to fit" MWDA. No we've already mapped out what is and isn't going to happen. When we get to tell that story you'll see exactly why and how the Wobbies destroyed Dragoons as a military force and what rolled after that.
Some may not like it and not accept it. Many will and then there will be those who will wait and see and go from there. I can say with assurance that FanPro's stable of writers are very keen on what we have to do and how we are going to do it.
I hope I was able to at least make a few things clearer for you.
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Karagin
11/21/02 10:42 PM
68.21.149.101
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Funny I point the same bloody thing and I got attacked...nice to see that some one else can point it out and it's interesting and needs to be looked...right okay...no doublestandards in this community...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/22/02 06:47 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
no doublestandards in this community...
[blunt honesty]Oh, there are. When your responses to debates are, "You're oppressing me!" and other martyred posturing, not to mention liberally decrying something in BT as stupid, you're not likely to get positive responses out of me.
Rockdaddy just did a fantastic job of putting up with my flaming (ahem: sorry for being a dick earlier, Rockdaddy) and made his point clearly and logically. Plus, I don't have the baggage with him that I have with you.
So, yeah, there's a double standard here.[/blunt honesty]
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (11/22/02 06:54 AM)
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Cray
11/22/02 06:49 AM
64.83.29.242
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Fascinating.
So much alternate history possibility in that answer.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
11/22/02 07:12 AM
68.21.149.155
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Funny thing was I used the game logic and CANON facts and I was STILL attacked...nice to see even when one tries to use the given facts and such from the game the ones WHO claim to be in the know go out of their way to flame or attack...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
11/22/02 07:58 AM
64.83.29.242
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In reply to:
Cray wrote:
No, no, I'm not asking for the outcome, like Mr. Kiasu did. My questions are:
How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces, etc...), is what FASA intended, and how much of it (a percentage estimate is fine) is being rewritten in order to incorporate the MWDA game system?
In reply to:
MacAttack wrote in reply
"How much of the WOB Jihad, as it is unfolding (e.g. Nuking Outreach and other places, Wolf's Dragoons, assassinations, hidden armies and forces, etc...), is what FASA intended"
Lots
".. and how much of it (a percentage estimate is fine) is being rewritten in order to incorporate the MWDA game system?"
Not Lots
-MacAttack
In reply to:
Rumor wrote:
Actually, it depends on what you mean by 'rewritten.' Because the Jihad has never been written. Yes, we had a plan. And most of that plan is still in effect. But in some cases, teh very nature of hte Jihad changed in order to bring about a desired effect for MWDA. (and no, I won't go into that now. maybe if we ever get permission to write the Jihad.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (11/22/02 02:01 PM)
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realworldviews
11/22/02 11:00 PM
24.98.65.31
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Do you really think that the writers would really admit if the Jihad is playing out like FASA had it. If I was being paided by Wizkids I would only be saying what they wanted me to. If they are saying that it was FASA's idea then I would be saying that FASA had it planed out like this.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Cray
11/23/02 08:51 AM
12.92.115.141
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In reply to:
Do you really think that the writers would really admit if the Jihad is playing out like FASA had it.
Several of them did admit it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Warner_Doles
11/23/02 01:19 PM
206.27.48.12
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Do you really think that the writers would really admit if the Jihad is playing out like FASA had it.
Yes we would and we have. We aren't under any "orders" not too.
If I was being paided by Wizkids I would only be saying what they wanted me to.
We're not under any orders. What is to gain by LYING about it? What do we gain to make it up and try to cover up something? People are smart enough to see through things like that. Besides, things like that have the tendancy to come back to you when you do such things. Besides we are writting under FanPro for Classic BattleTech, not WizKids. WizKids has final approval authority over product or other things that would demand their attention, yet they don't pay us. FanPro does.
If they are saying that it was FASA's idea then I would be saying that FASA had it planed out like this.
Yet they aren't. If you are assuming we're automatons here, you're mistaken. Those of us involved are far from it, that's for sure!
The fact is, the Jihad was planned back in 1999 along with the future of the game and finalized before the year was out. And had some modificiation made to it (length of it as well as some other things) to tie MechWarrior Darkage's historical background into Classic BattleTech's future.
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Rockdaddy
11/23/02 01:40 PM
206.102.34.89
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I really had hoped that this was being forced on FanPro by WizKids, but it doesn't suprise me that this retarded storyline came out of FASA.
It just defies logic, the whole thing. Well I guess it's just one more legacy of the Nystul Reign of Terror. Thanks Bryan, I appreciate it. If I buy the Jihad materials, I can always use them as toilet paper and put them to proper use.
Just when I think the people who are and were in charge of the game, and writing it, couldn't make another stupid storyline decision, they prove me wrong. And they wonder why so many people just throw their hands up in disbelief and leave the game.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/23/02 02:02 PM
12.92.115.141
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Indeed. FASA came up with Kurita's "Hail Mary" play to halt the Davionista juggernaut in 3039. I find the Jihad more credible than the War of 3039 and Clans, honestly.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/23/02 02:16 PM
206.102.34.89
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Oh I agree on the War of 3039 being unbelievable. A hidden ComStar army that appears out of thin air. ComStar just giving Kurita all that technology. It was clearly just a way for FASA to reverse the 4th Succession War. And then there are the Clans, technobarbarians made from the greatest army every. Right.... And now the Jihad.
It never fails me how many stupid decisions and storylines can come out of such a small group of "writers". One would think after one instance of them making a decision that drives people insane after another they would try to not do it, but noooooo...I mean do these people have anyone that tells them their ideas need work, and who are listened too, or are they just surrounded by bootlickers trying to get the nod to come abourd as a writer and anyone who is a naysayer is automatically branded a troublemaker and ignored?
The worst part about all this is if I vote with my pocketbook I get told I'm disloyal and not supporting the game, which will fold. But how can I keep giving them my money when they keep producing crap? So much for giving the customer what he wants I guess. They'll just make junk and say we have to buy it or we aren't supportive. So where is their incentive to write something good for a change?
It just boggles the mind.
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Cray
11/23/02 02:50 PM
12.92.115.141
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Comstar's hidden army made sense: all the SLDF reserves on Terra.
It was how Kurita defeated the Davionista juggernaut with shoestring commando raids and a couple of new weapons tha bothered me.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rockdaddy
11/23/02 03:19 PM
206.102.33.118
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It isn't the SLDF stores that I have a problem with, it's that they suddenly have an army nobody in the Inner Sphere ever found. Just one day Hanse Davion wakes up and ComStar fields the largest army.
I remember reading the Star League book and found all these units listed as missing (e.g. 13th Royal BattleMech Division). Nobody has a clue what happened to them And lo and behold when ComStar gets their sourcebook those units were the basis of the ComGuards...and yet the Star League book was an internal ComStar report. So either one hand doesn't know what the other is doing (highly unlikely given the nature of the report and how ComStar is organized) or ComStar needed an army and the writers just pulled one out of thin air.
Then we have how ComStar can't rebuild after their losses at Tukayyid and the defects after Op. Scorpion, even with Terra, and the help of the FRR, DC, and FedCom, and all the money from running the HPG network, but WoB can, even though Terra is devestated by the WoB invasion, FWL is rebuilding after Op. Guerrro, kicking out the mercs so their army has just that much more to do, mounting an offensive against the Clans. That alone defies logic, but then throw in the skimming of something like 10% of the GNP (and nobody notices that???) and WoB still has the resources to simply pull an army and a navy out of thin air?
It isn't plot twists that I mind, it's plot twists that smack of writer fiat and then we're expected to just close our eyes, nod, and say "yes, it makes perfect sense."
I have no faith at all in the writer's abilities to make anything close to a logical universe anymore. What's next? They need Thomas Marik out of the way, so they make him sneeze and his head explodes?
All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buzz, and I'm fine.
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Lance_Hawkins
11/23/02 04:33 PM
80.203.33.226
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In reply to:
It isn't plot twists that I mind, it's plot twists that smack of writer fiat and then we're expected to just close our eyes, nod, and say "yes, it makes perfect sense."
And you make this comment in regards to a game with giant walking robots who can't hit the side of a barn if the fell on top of them, where you can jump between the stars, but firing a weapon further than 600 meters is neigh impossible.
*smirks*
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Cray
11/23/02 05:12 PM
12.91.125.177
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In reply to:
And you make this comment in regards to a game with giant walking robots who can't hit the side of a barn if the fell on top of them, where you can jump between the stars, but firing a weapon further than 600 meters is neigh impossible.
I make comments like that all the time despite the illogical nature of the setting. Heck, I make them about the illogical nature of the setting.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Rotwang
11/23/02 07:05 PM
213.224.83.134
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What bothers me most is the idea that so many events do happen in the BT universe. If this were happening in real life we would be right in the middle of World War VII and the seven major hereditary leaders of the world would be Emperor Giacomo Pedro of The South American Empire, Kyle Washington, President of the United States, Ivana Stalin, Chairman of the USSR, King Louis XXX of France, Emperor Akihito of Japan, King Charles II of the Commonwealth of Great Britain and Tracy-Lee Hapsburg of the Austrian-Hungarian-German-Scandinavian empire and Microsoft would control all earth communications ...
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:01 AM
195.92.168.174
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You are right.
Its not conicidence that the Jihad ties in perfectly with the Dark Age.
However, much of it was planned, and if you know what to look for you can see the signs of it appearing a long time ago. And the lenghty development cycle for the storyline is what has allowed FanPro and Wizkids the opportunity to modify the Jihad so it can tie into the Dark Age.
What was changed?
Simply put, what the developers told us throught heir forum on CBT (you really should read it, even if you won't post there) is that the Jihad lasts a bit loinger and is more vicious than planned - the better to allow the setting up of the Republic of the Sphere.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:20 AM
195.92.168.173
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CoMStar couldn't rebuild to the same extent as WoB.
It is after all far larger.
Plus, it had no active Mech factories in 3052.
And it was being continually weakened by defections and sabotage, and had lost a good proportion of its funding.
WoB, in comparison, has had it far easier for a number of reasons.
So, yes...WoB can rebuild quicker and easier than ComStar.
As for the Terra campaign....not all WoB units were involved in that. And the ComStar troops took more casualties.
EJL
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:42 AM
195.92.168.173
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The Star League is publically called a political sham and broken up?
-It was a political sham. It was fromt he start and anybopdy who expected it to last was dleuding themselves. It was et up with one purpose - to provide an anti-Clan platform...period. The "removal" of the Clan threat thus left it without any purpose. And with the power of the First Lords beign continually abused, and it being unable/unwilling to act in the Capellan Crsis to save a memebr state, intervene in the Civil War, the Draconis Incursion, the Jade Falcon conflict or the Bear-Combine war it was only a matter of time before it broke up.
The Fed Com Civil War ends with the FC broken up and Victor, rightful heir just simply walks away from the throne and instead of reuiniting the state, it is let in the hands of a pilitically naiive girl and someone who has spent time in a looney bin and nobody seems troubled.
-Yes. I am. Peter should have gotten the FedSuns.
Seriously - Victor could never reunite the FedCom, nor would he seriously be able to retake power. He had made too many enemies in both states. Indeed, his actions were a large factor in the causes of the Civil War in the first place. For example, what Yvonne did to Katie, using her right to exile her, he should have done the moment he found out Katie was responsible for Melissas death. Instead, he *gave* Katie the LyrCom.
The Capellans gain factories out of nowhere and are able to go on the offensive when just a few vears before they could barely field an army.
-The CapCon has been rebuilding for thirty odd years. It has been supported by the Marik for about ten of those. And they are able to go on the offensive only because they used Mariks offensive as a shield, and later allied with the TC and MoC to gain troops and never bit off more than they could chew.
WoB skims around 10% of the GNP from the Free Worlds League and nobody notices.
-10% of the GNP? You sure about that? In any case - it was noticed. Marik allowed it. There is a difference.
Hidden armies that shouldn't be possible to create just show up, major players are wiped out in an instant...I mean the list goes on.
-Both 'hidden' armies - the WoB and ComStar are fully plausible given what we know. As was the death/absorption of the St. Ives Compact. The death of the Jaguars was more forced, yes.
EJL
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Karagin
11/24/02 09:16 PM
68.21.149.111
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Putting aside the idea of the mechs and such, since it's clear ALL who play the game have some degree of belief or find something interesting in them to not worry that much about them...so that does leave the plot and the lack of thinking by a good chunk of the authors.
IF this wasn't the case then Kieths would still be writing about his GDL and some of the current events wouldn't be so hard to believe even with in the scope of the BT universe.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
11/24/02 09:18 PM
68.21.149.111
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Interesting...why couldn't Stackpole or Coleman answer this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
11/24/02 10:05 PM
195.92.168.164
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Because the Dragoons have standards and are choosy about who they hire themsleves out to. Furthermore, they've never had a good relationship with ComStar.
Once the WoB decided to make their move, the Dragoons and Outreach became an obstacle that had to be removed. They couldn't be bought so they had to be destroyed as a fighting force. And, thanks to their deserved reputation, the options they had available to them were limited even further.
EJL
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Lance_Hawkins
11/25/02 07:51 AM
80.203.33.226
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"Rumor" is Loren Coleman.
Stackpole doesn't frequent the board.
I have seen the best of men go past, I do not want to be the last.
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Karagin
11/25/02 12:46 PM
68.21.149.233
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I see...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Toastrider
11/27/02 12:35 AM
172.145.155.245
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Let's talk about a few things.
Folks, just because something is 'official' does not make it 'good'. If any of you ever read Marvel comics, you're probably catching on quick. The editorial and writing absurdities present in Marvel would have made angels weep.
Which is why MWDA bothers me so much. It's not the overall setting per se -- it's the contrived feeling of the plotline. People have made numerous arguments as to the holes in the Jihad. A HUGE army rivalling that of the original SLDF, an equally large navy, an arsenal of NBC weapons -- all manufactured in a bare handful of years?
And the attacks seemed to be practically simultaneous. Have you looked at the WizKids MWDA-Comstar site? Numerous worlds just in the Republic of the Sphere alone have been hit with nuclear or biological weaponry. After the first few got hit, you know damn well people would be forting up and going Wobblie hunting. And not just the IS units, either; I imagine Clan Nova Cat, Clan Ghost Bear, hell, even Clan Jade Falcon might jump in on the chance to scour such vermin from the universe.
Lance, Cray, I don't know why it's so important to you to try and defend the honor of this plotline; do either of you have money tied up in Wizkids or something? Let it stand or fall in the market, as it should. Let that be its 'Trial of Position', if you'll pardon the Clannerism  Enough with the snide remarks and the flames, and that goes for both sides of this debate. We're all supposed to be FRIENDS here, QUIAFF?
I just wish FASA and Wizkids had come up with a more elegant way to knock BT back to a 3025-era of tech. The Jihad as it is now is a clumsy kludge.
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.
--Toasty
"The survivors, not the victors, write the history books."
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TenakaFurey
12/02/02 06:40 PM
195.92.168.174
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Let's talk about a few things.
Folks, just because something is 'official' does not make it 'good'. If any of you ever read Marvel comics, you're probably catching on quick. The editorial and writing absurdities present in Marvel would have made angels weep.
- Hmmm…do I detect a Clone Saga Critic here?
Which is why MWDA bothers me so much. It's not the overall setting per se -- it's the contrived feeling of the plotline. People have made numerous arguments as to the holes in the Jihad. A HUGE army rivalling that of the original SLDF, an equally large navy, an arsenal of NBC weapons -- all manufactured in a bare handful of years?
-Not quite. First, the actual size of the WoB at the time of Jihad is unknown. But they don’t rival the size of the SLDF. Nor do they have a large navy. Their size is likely larger than that mentioned in the FM, but the premise behind this *is* acceptable and fairly believable. They have revenue, manpower and have expanded Terras military industries. They’ve also had fifteen years with which to do this.
Also, they have allies and have hired mercs. Add in the element of surprise, a severely weakened IS that has become increasingly hostile to each other and some smart opening moves and they really don’t need that large an army.
And the attacks seemed to be practically simultaneous. Have you looked at the WizKids MWDA-Comstar site? Numerous worlds just in the Republic of the Sphere alone have been hit with nuclear or biological weaponry. After the first few got hit, you know damn well people would be forting up and going Wobblie hunting. And not just the IS units, either; I imagine Clan Nova Cat, Clan Ghost Bear, hell, even Clan Jade Falcon might jump in on the chance to scour such vermin from the universe.
-The IS has however been weakened. And no Clan unit would engage the IS. For one – it is, by definition, an internal affair. Thus the Warden cause is not triggered. Secondly, it is not the Clans fight – so they are bound by honor not to interfere.
I just wish FASA and Wizkids had come up with a more elegant way to knock BT back to a 3025-era of tech. The Jihad as it is now is a clumsy kludge.
-Of course, we have yet to see how it plays out. But it seems a perfectly reasonable storyline – more so than some others.
EJL
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Karagin
12/02/02 08:00 PM
68.21.149.248
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In reply to:
TenakaFurey wrote:
-Of course, we have yet to see how it plays out. But it seems a perfectly reasonable storyline – more so than some others.
EJL
Really? Using nukes is reasonable? Using BioChem weapons is reasonable? Sorry but those are NOT the signs of the writers coming up with ORIGINAL ideas.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Warner_Doles
12/03/02 09:50 AM
206.27.40.58
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Really?
Yes
Using nukes is reasonable?
Sure. If the force using them believes they can win by employing them. Yes it is. Had the Russian felt they'd win in using nukes against us, they'd used them. The Blakist know the repulsion these weapons create. Leaders cringe at the though of them being used. They are a terror weapon and they do achieve the desired effect when employed. So yes in this setting they are reasonable for who is using them.
Using BioChem weapons is reasonable?
Yep. Just like I stated above.
Sorry but those are NOT the signs of the writers coming up with ORIGINAL ideas.
No, no they are not. They are ideas that have been used in the hundred of millions of stories told. It is an idea that fits the setting of the BattleTech Universe. I will point out to you that in the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars Nuclear, Biological and Chemcial Weapons were used. They were also used by the Vaunted Star League Army during the Reunification War and during the Armaris War. Even the Periphery used them and destroyed nearly 50 plus divisions. You and a few othes my not like the idea or the story line, but that doesn't make it wrong either. If it does, then I expect you to speak out against all the other stories where the same weapons have been used time and time again outside of BattleTech. Besides, its only fair now isn't it? And you are a fair person right?
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TenakaFurey
12/03/02 08:49 PM
195.92.194.15
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Really? Using nukes is reasonable? Using BioChem weapons is reasonable? Sorry but those are NOT the signs of the writers coming up with ORIGINAL ideas.
-What is the problem with nukes?
Its a plot device. Nothing more. Other stories have used them. And their use is widespread in BTs history. They were even used during the Civil War.
The WoB using them makes sense. They have a number of advantges....they've been preparing for a while, they get first strike, they get surprise, they have more forces (even excluding allies) than just about anybody thinks they do and they are facing a weakened IS.
That doesn't mean they can achieve victory and so they need something to cut down the odds.....nukes are a cheap way to do this. Indeed, the opening strike on Outreach is a *smart* move on the Blakists part. They get rid of a large thorn in their flank and take down a good portion of theirallies as well. And, if that trend continues, we can expect simultaneous - or nearly so - strikes elsewhere.
Is the plotline itself reasonable? More difficult to answer. We don't know enough. But the action itself is not unprecedented and the WoBs have made enough preparatiosn to allow them to do this.
So, within the plotline...is the use of nukes reasonable? Yes...the WoBs need and have a force multiplier. They are fanatical enough, in many cases, to use them as well. And, as the Civil War shows, mere necessity can be enough to force the use of nukes. In a case of "us or them", "them" always loses.
Within the game, the use of nukes is less reasonable....the rules for their use would need to be structured and the weaposn restricted to avoid the "press a button to win" scenario. But the novels aren't the game.
EJL
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Karagin
12/04/02 07:57 AM
68.21.149.146
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First it's NOT original, second it brings up all kind of things like the whole point of Keiths leaving since NONE of the writers and staff wanted to Nuke the Jags, but it's now okay for the WoB to nuke a dozen or more planets in the Inner Sphere.
And finially, why use weapons that have MASSIVE side effects and then expect us to believe that none of these effects really have any effect on the people or the planets themselves, since we already know that Stone is able to rebuild in less time then it takes for the radaition and such to fully go away.
So it's a weak plot line and one that really shows that who ever thought it up, was either in a rush to come up with something or didn't expect us the fans to care that much.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/04/02 01:22 PM
195.92.168.173
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First it's NOT original, second it brings up all kind of things like the whole point of Keiths leaving since NONE of the writers and staff wanted to Nuke the Jags, but it's now okay for the WoB to nuke a dozen or more planets in the Inner Sphere.
-No, its not original. Its not the first time nukes have been used as a plot device, and it won’t be the last. Nukes are apart of the BT universe. Thus, they are sued – occasionally.
This ties in with your second point. There are good reasons why the Jags weren’t nuked. They would, in large part have been nuking their own territory for example.
But, more to the point, they didn’t need to. Playing their cards right, the DC could have handled the Jags on their own. Adding in the four other Great Houses was just overkill on a massive scale. Add in the good guy factor, and the real distaste many have for nukes in the BT universe and their aversion during the Jag onslaught is understandable. More so since use of such weapons against a Clan could have dragged in the rest of the Clans, and severely reduced the IS superiority.
The Blakists, however, need to use them to level the playing field and have none of the baggage associated with their use.
And finally, why use weapons that have MASSIVE side effects and then expect us to believe that none of these effects really have any effect on the people or the planets themselves, since we already know that Stone is able to rebuild in less time then it takes for the radiation and such to fully go away.
-Yes, its true. Nukes and other such weapons have side effects. However, what does this matter? The worlds have been affected. Outreach, for example, is still a radioactive cinder. But radiation lessens, and people can get by. They have rebuilt. Just look at Nagasaki and Hiroshiuma today.
So it's a weak plot line and one that really shows that who ever thought it up, was either in a rush to come up with something or didn't expect us the fans to care that much.
-Actually, I don’t see much wrong with it. The WoB tries a take over – something signposted a long time ago, and get slapped down. They do this against severely weakened Houses who have become increasingly belligerent towards each other. They use nukes and other weapons to level the playing field and have a number of other advantages.
To me, its far better plotted than the death of the Jags or the Civil War.
EJL
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Karagin
12/04/02 01:55 PM
68.21.149.83
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The whole idea of massive nuke/biochem attacks reads like a cheap 50s scifi story or a one of Clancy's novels, that is if he is actually writing it and not just signing off on it as he has been of late, the whole plotline is weak in that one side get's to use the weapons and NO ONE is the brighter before hand, seeing how in those novels the bad guys like the WOB in their Jihad plotline, manage to get everything past every agency know to man and BOOM we have the whole polt spelled out.
The whole attack by WoB on the major IS powers could have been done differently and better, and so far I am not impressed with this tried and over used plot line.
Yes nukes are a part of the BT history, but that's the key word HISTORY, seeing how that is were they have remained for how long...oh since the Second Succession war...should have been a big hint to WK and company that bringing them back would not be a good idea, given that we still see in the CANON books and such that effects and their use of said weapons are still felt in the 3060s.
So on that note, they can have their BS about and weak plot line, I will not be supporting MWDA so it won't matter, as far as things go for me, BT died, when WK put out MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TenakaFurey
12/04/02 07:55 PM
195.92.168.173
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The whole idea of massive nuke/biochem attacks reads like a cheap 50s scifi story or a one of Clancy's novels, that is if he is actually writing it and not just signing off on it as he has been of late, the whole plotline is weak in that one side get's to use the weapons and NO ONE is the brighter before hand, seeing how in those novels the bad guys like the WOB in their Jihad plotline, manage to get everything past every agency know to man and BOOM we have the whole plot spelled out.
- Well, as I said…the plot has been used before. It will be used again. As a plot device, however, that does not mean it is doomed. Look at stories such as Planet of the Apes, the Omega Man and Terminator. And that’s all the nukes are. A plot device. Not the reason for the story. Just a backdrop for the conflict.
As for getting past every known agencies….this does happen. They make mistakes. Especially in areas where they aren’t looking for them. The WOB, in this case, have been quiet since they were formed and have acted only against one faction – ComStar. In this, they have proven more trustworthy than ComStar itself. People may not like their perceived “fanaticism” but they haven’t done anything to really make the Great Houses consider them a threat. Or, at least, proven to.
Add in the fact that most intel agencies have better and more important things to do with their resources – the clans, the FedCom Civil War and the increasing hostility between neighbors – and the fact that the WOB controls ROM – one of the best intel agencies in the IS – and it becomes very plausible that their preparations were missed – especially if they were smart and compartmentalized their plans. And form what we know, they did do things the smart way. At least, at first.
Plus, we don’t actually know that they were missed. Like so much else, the data could have been misinterpreted, put aside for later analysis, been judged of low reliability or simply overlooked. This happens – even in real life.
The whole attack by WoB on the major IS powers could have been done differently and better, and so far I am not impressed with this tried and over used plot line.
Yes nukes are a part of the BT history, but that's the key word HISTORY, seeing how that is were they have remained for how long...oh since the Second Succession war...should have been a big hint to WK and company that bringing them back would not be a good idea, given that we still see in the CANON books and such that effects and their use of said weapons are still felt in the 3060s.
- Why does that mean the WoB can’t use them? They’ve been used since the Second Succession War. On Gibson. During the FCCW. And there are references in various SBs and SPs about their use. Liao used nerve gas in the Capellan Solution. The WoB is unique only in their scale. Not their timing, nor the fact that they actually used these weapons.
Could the attack have been done differently? Yes, it could have.
But how? What else could the WoB do to actually help ensure victory. Despite their armaments program, its unlikely they could have built up enough to take over the IS so a large scale attack – a la Clan invasion – would not work. Disinformation, redirection, etc would likely only get you so far before being uncovered. Whats left? Small scale attacks would only infuriate the Great Houses. Removing nukes and other WoMD leaves few, if any, viable options for the WoB.
So – how else could the WoB have attacked while still retaining a hope of victory? The use of nukes is one of the only viable options for victory they have.
As for WK doing this – the Jihad was planned by FASA. MWDA means it lasts longer, and is more vicious…but in most respects, it remains unchanged.
EJL
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realworldviews
12/06/02 12:07 AM
24.98.65.31
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Great response.
I personally don't really like where this storyline is going but the more that comes out the easier it is to take.
I can see where it came from and where it may be going.
I just hope that when WK/FanPro begin to release the stories and source materials for the Jihad that it is well written and makes sense.
I just finished reading the FedCom sourcebook from front to back and it was very well written. If the Jihad is written as well as it was I will be very happy.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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