Karagin
03/01/03 08:40 PM
207.43.145.35
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Check out CBT...(www.classicbattletech.com) and ask Peter Smith about it...or ask Warner...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/01/03 08:42 PM
207.43.145.35
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Well some of us have and thus we are saying we have enough with the subpar and shody material and poor products etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bloodrider
03/01/03 08:57 PM
152.163.189.136
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I tried Starlog and all I got was a damn store, didn't see any info on advertising in the mag at all.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Karagin
03/01/03 09:18 PM
207.43.145.35
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Try the links on the left hand side...and I am very sure if you email them they will tell you, just as they would tell anyone from FP asking them...  
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
03/01/03 09:41 PM
205.213.146.15
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'Try the links on the left hand side...'
Tried it, there was nothing. If you came across something while searching the site, please post the link here.
'and I am very sure if you email them they will tell you'
One of the first rules of debating is if you make a claim, you have to back it up. Otherwise your contentions will fall on deaf ears. Since you have previously said that it cant cost that much, its up to you to provide the ACTUAL cost of running an add in any of these magazines (and not how much you think it costs).
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masdog5
03/01/03 09:42 PM
205.213.146.15
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'Again why are the fans having to do FP's leg work? That has yet to be answered...'
Its not doing FP's leg work. I'm sure htey have all that info right at their fingertips.
How come every time someone asks you to provide some facts to back up your point, you say thats doing FP's leg work?
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Karagin
03/02/03 04:59 AM
207.43.145.34
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I say that because if I can go to a website and see that a company has a contact email or has their policys on said page then why can't FP do the same and ask the company what it would cost to place ads in their product?
Why is it that they haven't done so if they already as you say have the info? Why is it that we have only seen them do one set of ads in one non-widely published magazine?
And based on the lack of ads, it does seems as if the fans are doing the leg work for FP since we don't see them doing jack squat to advertise the game in any magazines that support the sci-fi industry or the even try to reach the mass gaming market by placing ads in gaming related magazines that do have wider distrobution and sales, like WIzard or Inquest.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/03 05:02 AM
207.43.145.34
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Again, I posted ideas, and again I don't see why if as you claim, and please back up your claim that FP has the info about ads in Starlog or anyother magazine beyond Games Unplugged, if they have this then they haven't used it if they are so egar to see the game sell and make money and grow...
I have posted my ideas, I have given suggestions and now you are telling me that because I haven't done all of the work for them and such that it's nothing because of that...how interesting...sorry but I see it more as failing on FP's part then on mine or anyone else who has offered ideas on how FP could improve.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
03/02/03 10:21 AM
205.213.146.15
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'Why is it that they haven't done so if they already as you say have the info? Why is it that we have only seen them do one set of ads in one non-widely published magazine?'
I beleive we've covered this somewhere else in the 200+ posts in this thread.
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masdog5
03/02/03 10:26 AM
205.213.146.15
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'Again, I posted ideas, '
Ideas are not facts. In a discussion/debate, you are required to present FACTS to back up your position.
'I have posted my ideas, I have given suggestions and now you are telling me that because I haven't done all of the work for them and such that it's nothing because of that...how interesting...sorry but I see it more as failing on FP's part then on mine or anyone else who has offered ideas on how FP could improve. '
This is almost as bad as you claiming that everyone was attacking you just because they disagreed with you.
First, you arent doing the work for them. They probably already have the work done, they just arent utilizing it. You are doing the work to build your case. Big difference.
'sorry but I see it more as failing on FP's part then on mine or anyone else who has offered ideas on how FP could improve.'
Do you always point fingers?
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Chas
03/02/03 11:51 AM
66.187.4.23
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"Again, why are the fans having to do FP's leg work?"
Karagin, he's not asking you to do FP's legwork.
He asked you if you know how much placing an ad in the aforementioned mags would cost.
Simple question with a simple answer.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
03/02/03 07:43 PM
207.43.145.52
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No sorry I don't see his question as that, I see it has him demanding that I give him the cost, and as I said again why should I do the leg work when it's clear that a simple email sent to any of the magazines I listed would get the answer and thus it would be very simple for FP to do this if they actually cared enough to worry about marketing the game beyond the limited estabalished fan base...
So I answered his question...I am sorry that you didn't like my answer...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/03 07:44 PM
207.43.145.52
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No we didn't cover it...we discussed it and the issue is still an important one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/03 07:50 PM
207.43.145.52
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I have posted the facts, they are on the webpage or can be gotten via email to the company who runs Starlog or Wizard...that is simple and easy.
Building the case...it's already built...the points that they could and should be placing ads in as many magazines as possible is there in front of us.
And again I ask why is it the fans responability to give FP all the work done on a platter? WHY CAN'T or WHY WON'T THEY DO IT THEMSELVES?
No sorry the folks who attacked me are the same ones who are quick to slam and attack anyone who voices a disagreement with the current track BT is taking or voices their thoughts on how WK is screwing over BT for what ever reason. IT would be different if they actually did disagree, but seeing how it's not that then it's very clear that they are attacking...but if you don't agree with that then that is up to you.
As for finger pointing...maybe...but then again those who have spoken up about things they don't like or want to see changed are labeled by the same group as I was refering to above and by folks who do work or claim to work for FP as naysayers and troublemakers...so maybe the blame of finger needs to go to all...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
03/02/03 09:09 PM
205.213.146.15
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Why do you ask so many loaded questions?
'I have posted the facts, they are on the webpage or can be gotten via email to the company who runs Starlog or Wizard...that is simple and easy.'
I didnt see any prices for advertising on that website.
Besides, if you make a contention, you have to support it. You cant make a claim and then say here is the site, see what you can find.
'And again I ask why is it the fans responability to give FP all the work done on a platter? WHY CAN'T or WHY WON'T THEY DO IT THEMSELVES?'
Its not. I dont work for FP. I am asking YOU to prove your point. Nothing more, nothing less.
I dont see how you think anyone challenging your claims as making you do FP's work for them. Its simple courtesy to back up your claims if you make a point. I have had to do it a million times when I have debated, whether online or in person. Its not that big of a deal to ask a simple question to back up your point.
If I was in your position, made some claim, and you challenged it, I would have no problem sending an email to FP or a magazine or something just to back up my point.
However, I didnt make the point. You did. Like our legal system, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the point, so its up to you to prove your claims to everyone who is discussing this with you.
How do you know that FP hasnt done their homework? Just because you dont see an ad in a magazine doesnt mean they havent priced it out. In fact, I'm sure they did price it out, just so they could determine if they had room in their budget for it.
'Building the case...it's already built...the points that they could and should be placing ads in as many magazines as possible is there in front of us.'
You have yet to present any facts to back your claims up, like how much it would cost to advertise in Starlog or Wizard and how much it costs to produce the CBT Boxed set.
'No sorry the folks who attacked me are the same ones who are quick to slam and attack anyone who voices a disagreement with the current track BT is taking or voices their thoughts on how WK is screwing over BT for what ever reason. IT would be different if they actually did disagree, but seeing how it's not that then it's very clear that they are attacking...but if you don't agree with that then that is up to you.'
Have you ever thought that they may come off that way because you come off as being very confrontational and very hard headed? Being flexible is a good thing, dont try taking the hardline position. People are more likely to listen and be civil with you if you are reasonable.
'As for finger pointing...maybe...but then again those who have spoken up about things they don't like or want to see changed are labeled by the same group as I was refering to above and by folks who do work or claim to work for FP as naysayers and troublemakers...so maybe the blame of finger needs to go to all... '
Because those people dont ask questions about what is possible or why something was done, they just say its wrong and offer solutions that arent viable.
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Chas
03/02/03 09:53 PM
66.187.4.115
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"I don't see his question as that."
Uh Karagin? Nobody CARES how you "see" his question. His question was "do you know how much it costs to put an add in a mag like Wizard.
Now you have three options on what you can do.
1: Squirm around, continue avoid the question.
2: Answer that NO, you DON'T know how much it costs to put an ad in a mag like Wizard.
3: Answer that YES, you DO know how much it costs to put an ad in a mag like Wizard, and give us the cost.
"and as I said again why should I do the leg work "
Nobody wants you doing legwork for them. We merely want you to show that you actually know what you're talking about instead of blowing hot air at us.
And who's to sayw e HAVEN'T e-mailed Wizard, or another mag to get pricing, and are simply waiting for YOU to verify the data?
All you're doing is crying about something. But when someone asks you a direct question, you pick up and try to move on to another point to gripe about. Finish what you started.
"So I answered his question."
No. You told him "go somewhere else and look it up". That's not an answer. That's an EVASION.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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TJHairball
03/02/03 09:55 PM
152.10.182.229
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Did some quick looking up online. I didn't find rates for Starlog, but most of the mid-smaller magazines I found rates for ask about $1000 for a full page color ad (circulation ~100,000-200,000 issues); larger magazines, like Discover, Forbes, Cosmopolitan, etc, ask for $40-50K for a full page color ad; Time magazine (US) charges $200K on the upper end for a full page color ad (circulation ~4M). Smaller ads cost substantially less in every case... web advertising is, as I'm sure most of you know, rated typically on a per click basis and is a very small sum...
So... to place a few half page color ads in some gaming magazines would (by a very rough estimate) cost several thousand dollars; for feasibility, therefore (by some very rough and largely generous to FP estimates), a thousand extra 5th ed boxed sets sold b/c of those ads would tip it into the well-worth-the-investment category.
Now, I can't say whether or not I know for certain a few ads in gamer/SF mags would increase sales by at least a thousand items for FP overall or not, being not an advertising expert, but I daresay it seems vaguely likely to me.
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TJHairball
03/02/03 10:05 PM
152.10.182.229
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My guess is that FP and WK have marked CBT as a "dying" game that isn't gaining new players anymore; advertising doesn't do much to retain or chase away old fans who still doggedly buy many of the new releases.
Quite simply, the situation is somewhat similar to AD&D 2nd edition under TSR, TSR going under, and WotC buying the rights and putting out a rather different DnD 3rd Edition (which has little resemblance to the Gary Gygax original.)
Similarly, the new system is touted as "simpler" but an older core of abandoned players remain, standing by their more realistic/grittier/more fun version. I expect that - barring a groundswell of some sort - CBT will eventually be left to twist in the wind once us diehards stop buying.
Just my two cents...
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masdog5
03/02/03 10:08 PM
205.213.146.15
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Thank you for looking that information up. Just going by the costs, I doubt that it would be currently feasible to publish more than an ad or two. Maybe if that is coupled with alot of word of mouth(the best form of advertising according to a marketting major I know) and alot of Commando events, it might increase sales enough to make advertising more profitable.
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Chunga
03/02/03 11:28 PM
24.211.11.205
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The Starlog site that Karagin gave me has no advertising info on it. It's a link to the Starlog store where you can buy old issues. I did email them for advertising info though. I have not gotten a reply.
Chunga
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realworldviews
03/03/03 12:42 AM
24.98.62.128
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I don't really know how licening fees are done but if they are anything like franchise fee for businesses, it is usually a percentage between 4%-9% of all profits/sales.
So if it is that way, or if its done any other way, WK would make more money if FP and CBT made more money.
Unless of course, FP just pays a flat fee to WK which is highly unlikely.
But why would WK care, they make enough money off MWDA.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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TJHairball
03/03/03 01:37 AM
152.10.182.229
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Well, they would care because - theoretically at least, and I'd agree with them in their position - it competes with their product.
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TwoYearLurker
03/03/03 05:18 PM
4.17.223.29
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I PM'ed Peter Smith, he said that it was simply for the rules of the game.
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TwoYearLurker
03/03/03 05:25 PM
4.17.223.29
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In reply to:
And again I ask why is it the fans responability to give FP all the work done on a platter? WHY CAN'T or WHY WON'T THEY DO IT THEMSELVES?
I don't know about anybody else, but to me, this sounds like you think everybody on this message board is a FanPro person. Are you really that paranoid?
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TwoYearLurker
03/03/03 05:29 PM
4.17.223.29
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Don't underestimate the power of word-of-mouth. Half of the people at the tech college I attend (total enrollment is about 10k students) listed word-of-mouth as their primary point of introduction.
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Bob_Richter
03/04/03 02:11 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Quite simply, the situation is somewhat similar to AD&D 2nd edition under TSR, TSR going under, and WotC buying the rights and putting out a rather different DnD 3rd Edition (which has little resemblance to the Gary Gygax original.)<<<
DnD 3rd Edition is really the same game designed by professionals. It's mechanically very similar, but it's more flexible and less confusing.
It's a new edition of an old product.
MWDA is a horse of a different color, clearly. It's reallty a game designed for an entirely different audience, those that want a fast-playing tacitcal miniatures game, like MageKnight, but with 'Mechs.
Battletech is still what it is.
I've played both games, and like both. Just like I liked the CCG (which was allowed to die, burn their eyes!)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/04/03 02:58 PM
152.10.182.229
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"DnD 3rd Edition is really the same game designed by professionals. It's mechanically very similar, but it's more flexible and less confusing."
Actually, no. It's a quite different game from AD&D 2nd edition... I'm familiar with both. The similarities largely revolve around things having the same name as they used to...
I've never tried MWDA; I've simply heard from those who have that it is indeed simpler. I probably SHOULD try it; I might even like it.
I liked the card game too... :]
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Bob_Richter
03/04/03 06:57 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Actually, no. It's a quite different game from AD&D 2nd edition... I'm familiar with both. <<<
Not familiar enough, I'd say, if you still hold that opinion.
There's not half as much difference between DnD 2ed and DnD 3ed as there is between the same edition-numbers of Mechwarrior.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/04/03 09:23 PM
152.10.182.229
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Not being as familiar with MW 3rd edition, I had to go double check... and I must say the differences are no less dramatic changing from 2nd edition to 3rd edition for AD&D-DnD than the Mechwarrior RPG. If you doubt my expertise in the matters, feel free to ignore the well over a thousand hours experience I've logged in as a Dungeon Master in the chair (not to mention time spent as a player, or doing background work [assembling NPCs, writing up adventures and locations, etc]).
The two biggest difference in ingame mechanics between MW2 and MW3 are the substitution of d10 for d6 rolls and the reduction of two types of experience/advancement points into one. The Life Path character creation system is dramatically different, but has no further effect on game play after character creation.
On the other hand... TSR/WotC have substantially disparate ways of handling advancement, career paths, stat modification, sudden death, etc. They both are level/hit point based systems, and share vocabulary in common, but aside from the more similar character creation systems, they share no more in common than MW2 and 3; I'm tempted to say less, but there could be a few subtle differences I've missed in my relative lack of experience with the Mechwarrior RPG (particularly 3rd edition... 2nd edition is fairly familiar to me).
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Bob_Richter
03/05/03 03:02 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The two biggest difference in ingame mechanics between MW2 and MW3 are the substitution of d10 for d6 rolls and the reduction of two types of experience/advancement points into one.<<<
Totally ignoring the all-new combat system, of course, and just about everything ELSE.
MW3 is a totally different game, and appears to be trying to get as far away from MW2 as possible. It has almost literally NOTHING in common.
DnD 3rd Edtion was designed specifically to maintain parallells to earlier versions of the game while still making it a more modern game. Thus the new skills system, the more flexible multiclass structure, and flipping THAC0 (now renamed, because it was a stupid name) and AC (which, apparently, was not) on their heads to make them more intuitive.
They have a lot more in common then you think, and 3ed DnD is no more radical of a departure than 2ed DnD was. Far less than MW3 is.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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