Cadet
01/30/03 07:15 PM
206.102.33.33
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I've been looking through some of the older posts and there seems to be a common theme in some of them. A poster will mention a lack of BattleTech game products in a local store since there is virtually no advertising by FanPro. Then someone will claim that we need to tell the stores that BattleTech isn't dead and they should order.
Why? Why isn't FanPro actually doing advertising instead of relying on the fanbase?
I don't believe a writeup in a single magazine for a product line that has been around for roughly a year quite constitutes advertising either. I understand word of mouth is a great thing, but why isn't FanPro taking the initiative here?
Does not play well with others.
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Eclipz
01/30/03 07:47 PM
66.191.27.103
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There is an article in gamesunplugged #23 plus the first look at the Project Phoenix Warhammer IIc. The only problem with that is gamesunplugged is a little know mag (or it is around here).
Scott
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Cadet
01/30/03 07:49 PM
206.102.33.33
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That's what I mean. Why isn't FanPro doing any serious advertising (beyond a "feature" in a minor gaming magazine)?
Does not play well with others.
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Nightward
01/30/03 08:19 PM
202.138.18.135
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Probably becauseWhiz Kidz owns all the advertising rights or some other such BS.
Who cares? FASA went down the tube because they didn't use the brains God gave an ant when it came to advertising. If FanPro haven't learnt from the mistakes of FASA, they won't be around too much longer.
I agree that more advertsising does need to be done.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Eclipz
01/30/03 08:58 PM
66.191.27.103
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I have no idea why they can't or don't do more than they do. But I also don't think they have done a bad job since they have taken over the game either.
Scott
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Karagin
01/30/03 09:13 PM
68.21.149.173
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But, but but they are in Games Unplugged #23! That is the best thing for them! Everyone reads that magazine!!!!
That is the common answers we will get...and so far up until recently most folks hadn't heard about that magazine. Hell the local hobby shop who has up until FASA died carried BT has never even heard of Games Unplugged and the store has been selling gaming material since it open in 1988.
And the owner WON'T carry a product that doesn't seem to be supported by it's parent company. So even though I have asked and other have as well, no advertisment means it's a dead product.
So what is the reason that FP isn't pushing even small ads in magazines like Starlog (big sci-fi/movie magazine) or Game Trader or the Anime mag that is on the stands or even Wizard? An ad the size of credit card can't run in to the millions of dollars and given that each of the above magazines are seen monthly by 1000s of folks and potentional and current gamers it can't hurt...
But given that 70% of the folks who were at FASA are at the US side of FP it's not surprising we haven't seen ads.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
01/31/03 03:21 AM
80.222.92.246
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They`ve continued stocking Btech stuff as normal in my favorite gaming store, perhaps even increased the shelf space a bit. Then again, it`s the main office of Finland`s largest (and first, IIRC) RPG/wargame specialist. I don`t think the owner cares much for what the publisher does or doesn`t do as long as the customers buy things from that line.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Vapor
01/31/03 05:22 AM
202.128.69.122
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That sounds a lot like the owner of the store I've found here. He didn't have any CBT items when I first talked to him, but he's talking to his distributors about getting some. 
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cray
01/31/03 07:03 AM
65.32.253.120
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In reply to:
Why isn't FanPro actually doing advertising instead of relying on the fanbase?
One of the problems game companies seem to have after taking a bad hit is people assume the company is "dead," even if it's not. I want to say this happened to the Traveller publisher...Anyway, since game stores have discretion over what they order in (including advertizing posters), and they think the game is dead, they need first person confirmation BT is alive and well.
Where would you have BT advertize? A lot of the popular RPG magazines seem rather dedicated to a single game system anymore.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cadet
01/31/03 06:35 PM
206.102.35.37
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I'm not just talking about a single magazine write up, or even going to something like GenCon (honestly, how many game store owners can afford to go to something like that?). I am talking about putting adds in a trade rag, or in something like a game magazine on a regular basis. Maybe a nice color layout or purchasing the back cover or something. Maybe even something as little as sending a few flyers to individual shops.
I understand the game store owners not realizing FanPro is publishing BattleTech a year ago, but now? Inexcusable. FanPro SHOULD be putting the word out.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
01/31/03 11:17 PM
207.43.145.97
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I agree they could have ads in Starlog magazine or Wizard...most stores carry those...or any of the Anime magazines.
But hey that makes sense and would actually mean BT would be seen as in direct compteption with MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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KamikazeJohnson
02/01/03 02:26 AM
142.161.0.92
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>>But hey that makes sense and would actually mean BT would be seen as in direct compteption with MWDA. <<
They should put Btech ads in MWDA starter packs...you know..."Go Back To Where It All Began...", slogans like that! Unfortunately, that could label the game as "dated" and "old school" or whatever, but if it's done right, it could drag in some new players. That way, the two games would cross-promote, instead of being in competition. Of course, BTech might win, and then where would WK be? 
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Cadet
02/01/03 10:24 AM
206.102.32.83
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Well seeing as how when MWDA goes, that it drags CBT with it...well not a good situation really.
Peg: "Thank Jordan kids..."
Bud and Kelly: "Thanks Jordan..."
Does not play well with others.
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Vapor
02/02/03 02:40 AM
202.128.69.122
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In reply to:
But hey that makes sense and would actually mean BT would be seen as in direct compteption with MWDA.
I disagree. CBT could never be seen as being in competition with MW:DA, simply because they are two completely different gaming systems. MW:DA is an entry-level game to introduce younger players to the BT universe, and CBT is a more advanced game for serious gaming.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Karagin
02/02/03 08:17 PM
68.21.149.158
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Same universe, same group of mechs, same major players and a two rules sets that DON'T allow for easy advancement from either direction thus forcing the player to learn a new system for both.
Both games target the teenagers and thus they will compete.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Vapor
02/03/03 03:45 AM
202.128.71.52
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Same universe, yes.
Same group of mechs, yes.
Same major players (do you mean characters? if so, then yes).
However, your next point shows why they wouldn't be in direct competition with each other. Players will have to learn two different systems. These are two similar, yet completely different games that are based on the same universe. (kind of like comparing CBT and Neveron. A lot of similarities, but just as many distinct differences). Yes, they will provide a choice for fans of the BT universe (whether to choose one or the other, or both), but I don't think they will provide any direct competition against each other as games, simply because of the inherent differences. (eg. I will probably never play MW:DA simply because I think it is too simplistic. There's really no competition where I am concerned. Someone else might have to make a choice, and that's where any competition might come into play.)
I also disagree that they are both targeted at the same age-group. MW:DA is targeted at a younger age-group than CBT is. (Please note, I am not saying that an older player wouldn't enjoy playing MW:DA, just that CBT is a bit more involved than most younger players like)
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Karagin
02/03/03 10:30 AM
68.21.149.103
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Not the same characters...and not the same factions.
How are they not in competion? They both have miniatures, they both are sci-fi games, they both target generally the same audience, last time I looked the box set for BT said ages 10 and up, that sounds a lot like the same demographic age group MWDA is targeted at.
The mechs aren't the same, sorry but we don't have logger mechs running around as common everyday LEVEL2 machines.
The rules of the two games are different, but so are the rules of AT2 and yet that game hasn't challenged BT for the top spot and folks play both with out any problems and the two can be combined to give an even bigger playing field.
And going the other way, bring MWDA into BT, means that allowing in the IC mechs would mean that everyone in your group or mine allows Level 3 rules to be used...and that is not the case in every group. Kind of hard to have a level 2 BT mech of the logger or factory mech since the physical attack weapons that they use are level 3.
That to me is the inherited problems and areas that the two game compete.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cadet
02/03/03 10:18 PM
206.102.33.157
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But they haven't done any adverstising at all. If game shops are still convinced BattleTech is dead a year after FanPro took up the riegns, then something is seriously wrong. It isn't the fan's responsibility to ensure corporate advertising is done at all.
I kind of wonder how many fans of BT simply don't know CBT even exists. I know of a couple of people who don't even look a the CBT website. How else would they even know the stuff exists if they can't just see it at the game store, of buy it online at a place like amazon.com?
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
02/03/03 11:24 PM
68.21.149.32
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You raise a very good point...and it has yet to be answered by TPTB...
(and yes I saw Randal's battlechat that did mention they were looking into the ads issue, but that only addressed the whole Games Unplugged thing and given that NOT every store get's that magazine...FYI in case some want to bring it up)
...We the fans can only do so much with word of mouth, and most hobby shops and such aren't going to take just word of mouth as proof...they want to see the product in places like Game Trader or one of the other catologs so they can see for themsevles that BT is alive and breathing.
Again I raise the issue why can't FP advertise in the different Sci-fi magaiznes? What is stopping them? Do all the ads have to go through WK? If that is true then I think we all know which game is of more importance to them and it's NOT Battletech.
I know of several who don't know BT is back...and two of them don't really care, one left after Stackpole's essays and the other right before TR3067 came out. And they don't visit CBT's site so they wouldn't know if the game was alive or not since there are no ads in the main stream sci-fi/comic book settings to let them know.
So why is it we see a lot of ads for MWDA and NONE for BT?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Nightmare
02/05/03 03:24 AM
80.222.92.246
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-I kind of wonder how many fans of BT simply don't know CBT even exists.
A few might still think the line is dead. I`d imagine anyone who really liked the game would hear the news eventually, but those who only hanged out on the fringes are another matter. Most of my opponents are only available for Btech when there`s nothing better going on, like a TT RPG or a LAN session of Infiltration. They wouldn`t likely know anything if I hadn`t told them.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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Chunga
02/09/03 11:51 PM
24.211.11.205
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You're saying that your store will not order you Battletech products when you've asked for them? That's astounding.
You have cash, which you will give this person, for books or miniatures, and he REFUSES to take it? This person needs to spend 5 minutes and he could take your money, but he won't? This must be one comfortable store owner. Wow.
It's this sort of thing that make me so grateful of the gaming stores around me. I can walk into any one of 5 stores in the area, ask for a book (as long as I have a part number or something to describe it) and generally have it in a week or two. Hell, even Waldenbooks ordered me something once.
I don't know how I would survive in your shoes.
Chunga
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Vapor
02/10/03 03:03 AM
202.128.73.130
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The store in my area is the same way. They don't carry any CBT items yet, but since I went in and asked, the owner has told me that he will look into getting some CBT items, and if I need anything special ordered, he'll even do that for me. So, I'm happy.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Bob_Richter
02/10/03 06:58 PM
4.35.174.250
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1 - Advertising, especially where it will be noticed, is expensive.
2 - THE MOST EFFECTIVE FORM OF ADVERTISING is word-of-mouth, and this is the form publishing companies have relied upon for centuries.
Not that that excuses FanPro for not advertising...
...but it is still your duty as a dedicated Battletech player to go to your FLGS, tell them CBT exists, and tell them to tell everyone who used to play Battletech.
Is that so very hard?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/10/03 10:56 PM
208.42.114.130
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First WORD OF MOUTH is NOT the most effective if it's NOT backed up by ads in magazines that folks will see, ie STARLOG or WIZARD etc...
And second, the company has to show the store owners that the product is there and is not just one person walking in ordering a limited item that WON'T sell to others since they don't see any ads that support said item.
So 99% of the responibility falls on FanPro to get the ads out thus showing that the requests made by us the fans are more then hear say and rumor or a single person looking for one or two things.
Have a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Eclipz
02/10/03 11:31 PM
66.191.27.103
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I'm not sure about your local shop but ours gets a magazine type thing from Alliance every couple months (give or take) and it has everything being released during that time frame from Alliance. He flips thru and can see that Battletech is alive and well and he orders the product. So it isn't like nobody knows it is in production.
Scott
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Bob_Richter
02/11/03 06:40 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>First WORD OF MOUTH is NOT the most effective<<<
Wrong.
Of any single form of advertisement, word of mouth is the most effective AND the least expensive.
I don't read magazines myself, especially not STARLOG or WIZARD (and I have heard of neither until this discussion,) so any advertisement placed in that one would miss me completely.
The Internet, on ther other hand, reaches someone in almost every community around the globe. We (the online Battletech Community) know it is still going, and so do most of our FLGS.
The only way to reach a wider audience would be a nationally or globally syndicated television or radio show.
We have internet. We have word of mouth. We even have some advertisements in magazines. Is it enough? No. Is it a start? Yes.
Everyone will eventually know. Is it so much of a bother to get out there and support your hobby? Lazy bums.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
02/11/03 07:58 AM
206.102.34.80
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Word of mouth being great and all, just ain't good enough Bob.
Remember the fliers with exclusive 'Mechs? Banners? Maps? Displays? FASA might have had a lot of faults, but they did advertise. Neither FanPro or WhizKids seem interested in promoting a game system that has been out for a year.
Yeah, we're out there looking at the webpages, and telling people, but we're already in the game. There is only so much we can do, and it really is their responsibility to promote their product. Hoping we'll do it isn't enough, and it isn't fair to us. Relieing on us telling a game store owner that BattleTech still exists, and him flipping through his catalog and saying, "Well, I'll be damned. It does exist," is not indicitive of the company promoting their product, and promotion is a legitimate business function. It is something they should be doing and aren't. That whole lack of advertising is hurting the game because people just don't know about it. Sure, that game store might order a few books for people that ask for them, but they have no incentive to order more because people just don't know about the game. There are no new players. Potential shoppers want to see big colorful banners, not some guy saying "Hey, it's a great game." I can't be in that game store round the clock, a display of books and boxes can be.
But what do I know, I'm only a NAYSAYER!...
Does not play well with others.
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Vapor
02/11/03 09:26 AM
202.123.138.70
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What I'd love to know is whether or not FanPro does, in fact, have any CBT posters. If they do, how do I go about getting a hold of them to put up in my local game store? The owner of the store has asked his distributors about getting CBT stuff, but as far as I know, he hasn't heard back from them, yet.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Bob_Richter
02/11/03 10:58 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Remember the fliers with exclusive 'Mechs?<<<
Nope.
>>>Banners?<<<
Nope.
>>>Maps?<<<
Nope.
>>>Displays?<<<
Nope.
>>>FASA might have had a lot of faults, but they did advertise.<<<
Not very well, they didn't.
>>>That whole lack of advertising is hurting the game because people just don't know about it. <<<
IF they don't, it's because they've been hiding under a rock.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
02/11/03 11:10 AM
206.102.33.108
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Play FanPro cheerleader all you want, it won't change the fact that the lack of advertising is hurting the game. Potential new players don't even know the game exists. But then again, why would we want them to know? They've been living under a rock.
Does not play well with others.
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Vapor
02/11/03 07:37 PM
202.123.140.228
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In reply to:
Not very well, they didn't.
They did a better job than FanPro's doing.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Karagin
02/11/03 10:07 PM
208.42.114.130
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Allince has NEXT to nothing from FANPRO on BT, they have the miniatures from IWM and tons of stuff on MWDA, I get the magazine as well as GAMETRADER...neither have ANY ads by FANPRO for BT, but tons of ads for MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
02/11/03 10:09 PM
24.98.62.128
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>>>Remember the fliers with exclusive 'Mechs?<<<
Nope.
>>>Banners?<<<
Nope.
>>>Maps?<<<
Nope.
>>>Displays?<<<
Nope.
You don't remember these things... well maybe they weren't as prolific in the gaming stores, but I do remember at all the big Sci-Fi and Gaming cons that I went to, FASA always seemed to have a huge booth with plenty of free stuff like posters and flyers with special mechs that could only be found at that con.
>>>That whole lack of advertising is hurting the game because people just don't know about it. <<<
IF they don't, it's because they've been hiding under a rock.
I know of plenty of people who didn't know that CBT was back until I said something to them. With all the MWDA advertising going on it really didn't surprise me that they didn't know it was back.
Now if WK would put just a portion of what they spend pushing MWDA on CBT, CBT would be doing a heck alot better.
But that's just my $0.02, and heck what do I know.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Cadet
02/11/03 11:08 PM
206.102.34.100
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My local gaming store only has a single copy of the FC Civil War book and a few metal minis on the shelves. Appearantly it is stuff that was ordered and never picked up. I asked why they didn't have more stuff there and appearantly there is zero demand for BattleTech. When I pushed the issue, the woman said no one even knows it is still a going concern. The distributors just don't seem to be interested in pushing a product that the publisher doesn't seem very adament in advertising.
Now MWDA on the other hand...
Does not play well with others.
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 02:16 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>You don't remember these things... well maybe they weren't as prolific in the gaming stores, but I do remember at all the big Sci-Fi and Gaming cons that I went to, FASA always seemed to have a huge booth with plenty of free stuff like posters and flyers with special mechs that could only be found at that con.<<<
But FASA only ever went to the big ones, and their advertisement was almost completely limited to that. I'm pretty sure FanPro is still touring the major Cons. No point here. Moving along...
>>>I know of plenty of people who didn't know that CBT was back until I said something to them.<<<
Really?
Hm. That's not terribly surprising. A lot of folks DID go and hide under a rock when Battletech arrived. Most people these days have some access to the internet. If they had even the slightest modicum of interest in their old hobby, they might periodically run a search for it.
Google's top result for Battletech is the following link: FanPro's Official Classic Battletech Website
A number of folks go to a pretty significant effort to keep this site online and updated. This is FAR more effort than FASA ever put into having a web presence. In the last days of FASA, *THIS FAN-OPERATED SITE* was still the first hit any search engine would give you on Battletech.
You practically have to be trying to ignore the fact that FanPro is producing Classic Battletech Products. It's literally ALL OVER THE WEB.
I'm not surprised that a small company like FanPro LLC doesn't pay for expensive advertising slots that would do nothing but losing money. FanPro's doing a half-decent job of getting the word out, and the rest, as always, is up to us.
And, a final point, just in case you think this point still stands, I met people back in the mid-nineties who thought Battletech was long-dead and buried.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 02:17 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>They did a better job than FanPro's doing. <<<
That's a matter of opinion, and (for the record) I strongly disagree.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
02/12/03 02:39 AM
206.102.34.103
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What do you base you opinion on? I mean what factors have helped you make up your mind that FASA did a worse job marketing BattleTech than FanPro has?
Does not play well with others.
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Cadet
02/12/03 02:42 AM
206.102.34.103
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But Bob, all those things I mentioned were found in a regular store, not just in a convention.
Besides, does "pretty sure" really cut it? How much does FanPro really advertise at the major cons? Do they hand out freebies? Do they have a major booth or just a table with a couple of books?
Does not play well with others.
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 07:11 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I mean what factors have helped you make up your mind that FASA did a worse job marketing BattleTech than FanPro has? <<<
How about the fact that FASA never bothered to maintain its website? Or that I never saw even one of those promotions you mentioned? Or that they sold their most powerful marketing and money-making tool to Microsoft?
I don't know what's up with your FLGS, but mine got FanPro's Battletech stuff more or less as soon as it came out. You trying to tell me that Kennewick's Infinite Frontiers is that much better than whatever pitiful excuse for a hobby shop you frequent?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Eclipz
02/12/03 08:59 AM
66.191.27.103
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You live in Kennewick?? My sister in law lived there for a few years and I have been there twice! The wind blew so hard when I was there I thought we were gonna land in Oz.
Scott
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masdog5
02/12/03 10:23 AM
205.213.145.33
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As a gamer, I wouldnt throw my money down on a game I just saw in a magazine unless I had alot of word of mouth to back it up. Thats how I got into Magic and half the other CCGs during that craze in the mid 90's.
As for battletech, I got interested in it not through what my game shops carried, but my friends telling me about how good some of the novels were.
Hmm...I think thats the word of mouth that Bob was talking about.
If they want to hook potential players and sell this stuff, demos would be much better at selling this game then any ads you see in a magazine.
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masdog5
02/12/03 10:29 AM
205.213.145.33
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I used to frequent a number of gaming and comic stores in my area until I became pretty good friends with one of the owners. He would not only special order current items, but also bid on items from Ebay if they were OOP.
He even posted some items on Ebay for one of the other patrons.
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Karagin
02/12/03 03:17 PM
208.42.114.130
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Lots of folks want to see the ads in a magazine and game trade publactions over just on the Net...
Just because something is on the net doesn't mean it's supported or even in print anymore, aka Renegade Legion, so to a lot of folks they need to see real ads.
Just going with the idea that everyone will see what's on the Net is like only putting up one ad on two lane road and wondering why your business isn't getting business.
They need to advertise in ALL game/genere related magazines in order to reach ALL of the fans and possible fans.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/03 03:19 PM
208.42.114.130
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That is the point Bob, they can't just rely on the Web Site as their only promotion tool and that is ALL they are doing.
They need MORE ads, in more areas and thus able to reach MORE folks.
Going with just one media outlet is a sure way to shoot themselves in the foot.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/03 03:22 PM
208.42.114.130
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It takes both forms to be sucuessful, not just one. The ads show folks the game is supported, the word of mouth let's folks know that others do play it and thus they will try to show the game to others.
With out both the game won't be successful, it needs both to survive and right now it only has one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 09:19 PM
4.35.174.250
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No, my FLGS is in Kennewick (WA, particularly, there may be others, I don't know.) I live in nearby Richland, WA.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 09:21 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>That is the point Bob, they can't just rely on the Web Site as their only promotion tool<<<
Why not?
It's a damn good one.
Beats the crap out of shelling out hundreds of dollars to advertise in magazinse most folks have never heard of.
>>>They need MORE ads, in more areas and thus able to reach MORE folks.<<<
Why? Why don't you ask FanPro if their current business model is succeeding? I'll bet you the answer is "yes." That being the case, why change anything?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 09:23 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>They need to advertise in ALL game/genere related magazines in order to reach ALL of the fans and possible fans.<<<
No, they don't. In fact, they need to NOT do that, as it would be a horrific waste of money.
FanPro doesn't need the fans who are hiding under rocks. They would be nice, but they're not needed. What's so hard to understand about that?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 09:24 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>If they want to hook potential players and sell this stuff, demos would be much better at selling this game then any ads you see in a magazine. <<<
...can you think of a better way of advertising the game? I can't.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/12/03 09:27 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The ads show folks the game is supported,<<<
So does a continuously updated website. FASA's got updated once every two or three years, prompting a lot of people to think Battletech was dead from time to time.
>>>With out both the game won't be successful,<<<
It's being successful. Since FanPro took over, more and more players are getting on board again. FanPro is MAKING MONEY. Given this FACT, you're clearly wrong. (no, I don't excpect you to admit it.)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/12/03 09:28 PM
208.42.114.130
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They need ALL of the fans and they need to have ads in ALL of the magazines that Sci-Fi and game fans will be reading.
No new fans means they will not grow, no growth means they die and thus they take BT with them.
What is so hard for you to see that with out new fans they can't stay in business and thus show Jordan that BT has a future?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/03 09:34 PM
208.42.114.130
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It's a fair one and it's only ONE source of media. They need to hit all sources that will appeal to the target audience, which are sci-fi fans and gamers.
Thus that means magazines like Wizard, Starlog and others. And just because you don't visit your comic book or local chain book store doesn't mean magazines like the two mentioned above are not out there.
History lesson for you, FASA use to advertise in Starlog for their ST RPG...that meant that they reached a lot of ST fans and that gave them an in with those who might not have know about the ST RPG that was one of FASA big sellers in the 80s.
Going with one media source limits your avenues to reach new customers and show the store owners that the game is still alive.
I don't see why you are having such a hard time understanding this, it's simple if they don't advertise in game magazines and genere related magazines they are doing nothing but hurting themselves and the game.
They need new customers to grow and to show a profit and thus they need to do more the rely on a website, they need hardcopy ads in magazines and more push at conventions to really show folks that they are doing BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/03 09:37 PM
208.42.114.130
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They are not making money, if they were they would have the ads out, they don't.
The fan base has not grown to the point that Jordan is dropping MWDA and taking BT back to the main flagship game.
The fan bases is there, but without ads and counting on the website to be the only source of info and proof isn't going to convince store owners to carry something that they don't see ads for in Gametrader or Alliance magazines or anything in Wizard or other such magazines.
To believe that the web site is their gold mine is nuts, but I doubt you will agree and I am sure you have some other off the wall line of reasoning as to why all they need is the website and that true advertisment like is being done for other games is wrong and not for BT...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/12/03 09:39 PM
208.42.114.130
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I can. Ads in magazines that are ready by gamers and sci-fi fans, like Starlog and Wizard.
The Commandos reach one group of fans the players, they have ONE firebase and while they do show off the game they are not every where and with out the hardcopy ads in a NOTEABLE magazine a lot of stores won't carry what they see as dead product.
I am sorry you can't or won't see or understand this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
02/12/03 10:12 PM
24.98.62.128
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The fan base has not grown to the point that Jordan is dropping MWDA and taking BT back to the main flagship game.
I personally do not think Jordan would ever drop his cash cow of MWDA for CBT, no matter how big it got. MWDA is just making him too much money now.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Karagin
02/12/03 10:14 PM
208.42.114.130
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You have a good point. But with out the advertisment BT isn't going anywhere and that is where we are at..NO advertisments for the game.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
02/12/03 10:28 PM
24.98.62.128
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I agree with you WK needs to advertise CBT at least a little more. So far I can only remember the one Games unplugged ad, andthe ad in the 1st MWDA novel.
That just isn't enough.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 02:53 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The fan base has not grown to the point that Jordan is dropping MWDA and taking BT back to the main flagship game.
<<<
And it won't, ever. The fanbase was never large enough to accomplish that task and NEVER WILL BE. If you think that's possible, you're dreaming.
If you think putting ads in a few magazines that NOBODY READS, you're wrong.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
02/13/03 03:27 AM
202.128.73.130
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In reply to:
If you think putting ads in a few magazines that NOBODY READS, you're wrong.
If nobody reads the magazines, the magazines wouldn't be getting published. Hence, that argument is false.
Just an FYI, but it doesn't cost a lot of money to put a one-page ad in a magazine. And that magazine has the potential to reach thousands of people. Depending on the magazine, the ad might even be less than what FanPro is already paying for their website.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:17 AM
205.213.145.33
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Its not that hard to see what Bob is talking about. He admits that there are more ways than one to get to other potential gamers. Please, get this through your thick head: Magazine Ads arent the be all, end all solution to advertising.
Personally, I would not drop money on a game that I just saw in a magazine. I would need some other hook, like seeing a demo of it, or hearing about it from some other player.
Thats what makes the most successful games. Not a bunch of color or b/w pages in some magazine.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:25 AM
205.213.145.33
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Its not the 1950s. Just because they dont have ads out doesnt mean that they arent making money.
Fact: The Internet is changing the way current businesses run.
Fact: Web sites are more influential when it comes to learning about a product then anything now because they can put more information about their products on it.
Ads would be an unnessecary expense if they do the bulk of their advertising on the net, where it is A)relatively cheap(dont try to tell me its not...i know what hosting, domain registration, and site development cost), B) saves money over traditional advertising, and C) is more accessable then anything you could possibly put into a magazine.
If you have a good relationship with your gamestore owner (and I would assume that you do if you are spending quite a bit of money in his shop), he will special order the products for you. No intelligent business owner is going to carry a product just because they see it in a magazine...they will carry it when they know there is a demand for it.
You need to pull your head out of the sand. Start thinking a little and stop being so damn stubborn.
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 10:04 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>If nobody reads the magazines, the magazines wouldn't be getting published. Hence, that argument is false.<<<
And yet, I've never so much as met someone who reads any of these magazines. Conversely, everyone I know knows about CBT.
Which, of course, makes the whole idea seem downright silly to me.
>>>Just an FYI, but it doesn't cost a lot of money to put a one-page ad in a magazine.<<<
It costs something, and something is more than nothing.
>>>And that magazine has the potential to reach thousands of people.<<<
With what message, precisely?
Folks know CBT is alive and well if they aren't hiding under a rock. If they are hdiding under a rock, this doesn't seem a very coherent strategy for stopping that behavior.
Ads in magazines do not draw customers for this kind of game. When was the last time you heard of someone drawn into Battletech by a magazine ad? I've never heard it, but maybe you got lucky once or twice.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
02/13/03 10:06 AM
202.123.139.14
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The only people who FanPro's website is currently catering to is those people who already know about it (and therefore probably already play CBT), and those who have been told about it (and may or may not actually start to play). If you put an ad in a gaming magazine, you will reach several thousand gamers who may or may not already know about CBT, and of those, a fairly good percentage will check out the website (if it is included in the ad). Relying on the website as the only official source of CBT information is limiting it's growth, since the site will only be hit by people who already play, or by those who have been told about it. You can't go by hits to FanPro's site either. God knows, I go there 10-15 times a day alone.
I think FanPro has a good site, and a decent fan-base. However, I also think that if the fan-base is going to grow appreciably in the next few years, they will have to spend a little money on ads in gaming magazines and such. If gamers don't know about CBT, they won't be looking for the site. But if they see an ad in their favorite gaming magazine, they just might check it out.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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masdog5
02/13/03 10:12 AM
205.213.145.33
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I'd like to think that, but I think the average reader will gloss over the ads. I never look at the ads in any magazine I read.
The only reason I got hooked on Battletech was the novels(back when Stackpole was writing, anyway...). If they could stop making cookie-cutter books with more than 300 pages, the quality would increase and that would attract more potential fans to the storyline.
The novels were the best thing for the entire product, in my opinion. They should bring them back with some better writing, make them longer, and let them help the franchise.
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Vapor
02/13/03 10:21 AM
202.123.139.14
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In reply to:
And yet, I've never so much as met someone who reads any of these magazines. Conversely, everyone I know knows about CBT.
You can't possibly convince me that you know every gamer in the US. I'm not that gullible.
In reply to:
With what message, precisely?
The ad doesn't have to say much. A picture of a couple 'Mechs firing at each other, maybe a burning city in the background and/or a few tanks near the 'Mechs' feet, a few catchy lines summing up the game, and the URL for the website.
In reply to:
Folks know CBT is alive and well if they aren't hiding under a rock. If they are hdiding under a rock, this doesn't seem a very coherent strategy for stopping that behavior.
You seem to like the term "hiding under a rock." Does it have some kind of special meaning for you?  lol
Anyway, I can tell you from personal experience, that there are exactly three people on the island of Guam who know about CBT (and only two of those people actually play). MW:DA is fairly popular here, but noone's heard of CBT. If they've never heard of it, they're not going to go visit the website. If they saw an ad for CBT, I'm sure that most (if not all) of the people here who play MW:DA would check it out.
In reply to:
Ads in magazines do not draw customers for this kind of game. When was the last time you heard of someone drawn into Battletech by a magazine ad? I've never heard it, but maybe you got lucky once or twice.
The ad is not intended to get someone to jump in and start buying CBT items, a bunch of minis, and start having campaigns. The ad is intended to spark the reader's curiosity, get them to take a look at the website, and then find out what other players think of the game. If they like what they see, and it interests them, then they'll start buying stuff.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Vapor
02/13/03 10:26 AM
202.123.139.14
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I agree. The novels were great. I enjoyed every one that I read, though I can't say that I've read them all.
However, I will say that if a magazine ad has something to it that catches my eye, I'll read it. That's the main pull of magazine ads: there's something there that grabs the reader's attention. I doubt FanPro will feature a pair of scantily-clad blonde twins in an ad for CBT, but I think a picture of two 'Mechs fighting would grab the attention of your average gamer.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 10:59 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>You can't possibly convince me that you know every gamer in the US. I'm not that gullible.<<<
Drat, and I was so hoping...
>>>Anyway, I can tell you from personal experience, that there are exactly three people on the island of Guam who know about CBT (and only two of those people actually play). <<<
Wow. How many of the other Guam residents do you suppose read Starlog?
>>>The ad is intended to spark the reader's curiosity, get them to take a look at the website, and then find out what other players think of the game. If they like what they see, and it interests them, then they'll start buying stuff. <<<
Never heard of that happening either...
...then again, things happen all the time I don't know about.
I don't see why all the fuss. Magazine advertisements aren't going to be that valulable, and the game's not going to die for the lack of them.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 11:02 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I doubt FanPro will feature a pair of scantily-clad blonde twins in an ad for CBT,<<<
Now, see, there was the REAL value of Natasha Kerensky. Get me a barely-clothed woman in a cooling vest...
...sex won't sell me, but pretty women WILL get my attention.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
02/13/03 11:18 AM
202.123.139.14
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In reply to:
I don't see why all the fuss. Magazine advertisements aren't going to be that valulable, and the game's not going to die for the lack of them.
If the game doesn't attract new players, the fan-base will grow stagnant, and eventually begin to shrink until it disappears. Word of mouth will only do so much. I could tell everyone I meet about CBT, but I'm not going to waste the effort on people who I know aren't interested.
In reply to:
Wow. How many of the other Guam residents do you suppose read Starlog?
I haven't seen Starlog on Guam, but there are a few other gaming magazines in stores here. And there is a good size group of gamers, too. The store who's owner is currently attempting to find out of his distributors will send him CBT stuff has a large Magic: The Gathering group who plays at the store, and a good size group of MW:DA players. And there's another store that has D&D games all the time, so I know there are a lot of gamers here. Just noone's ever heard of CBT.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cadet
02/13/03 12:09 PM
206.102.32.79
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In reply to:
If the game doesn't attract new players, the fan-base will grow stagnant, and eventually begin to shrink until it disappears. Word of mouth will only do so much. I could tell everyone I meet about CBT, but I'm not going to waste the effort on people who I know aren't interested.
Eventually nothing. The fan base is already shrinking thanks to stuff like te Jihad storyline. Someone that quits buying stuff because of that is effectively out of the fan base because they are no longer putting their money into the hobby.
What is needed is new blood to replace those who leave, whether it is from growing up, or disinterest, or disgust, or finacial issues, or whatever. That new blood isn't going to even find out about BattleTech by just guessing it. They need to see something to spark their interests.
Does not play well with others.
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masdog5
02/13/03 01:58 PM
205.213.146.254
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'I doubt FanPro will feature a pair of scantily-clad blonde twins in an ad for CBT'
What about the solaris 7 cheerleading team washing and waxing a mech? 
'but I think a picture of two 'Mechs fighting would grab the attention of your average gamer.'
Just as long as Plog isnt drawing it.
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GiovanniBlasini
02/13/03 04:33 PM
204.210.29.44
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Dude, wanna know what the most effective advertising for Classic Battletech is?
MWDA, Mechwarrior 4 series, MechAssault.
Print ads are horribly expensive. I know this because NoTx from the Classic Battletech site and I have been looking into advertising for a startup game company (focusing mainly on D20 stuff) we've been trying to get the funding to start. Two biggest hurdles? Production costs and advertising costs.
Artists? No prob. We've gotten artists to agree to work with us. Hell, besides two local artists, we even talked to Nene Thomas about it, and gotten tacit approval from her, once the details could be worked out.
Of course, one of the details is finished products, ie., book formats, number of pages, advertising, etc.
FanPro is a small company, and prnt ads are horrifyingly expensive. Notice how current publications from them aren't exactly cheap? Well, it's in part because of the print run - it's too small to get better deals, that'd bring the price down, because development costs could be spread over more books. It's kinda like the whole F-22 thing, really.
Advertising in multiple print mags isn't terribly feasible. Given what they are advertising in, that's a good start.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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Bob_Richter
02/13/03 05:05 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The fan base is already shrinking thanks to stuff like te Jihad storyline. <<<
Shrinking, nothing.
I'm sorry. I'd just like to see something solid to back up a statement like that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/13/03 08:56 PM
65.129.166.0
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First MWDA is NOT BT. Mechwarrior computer games are good at getting folks to see the game but it still falls short.
And if print ads are so expensive then there would be none done for movies or other books and games...so I doubt that statement you made is true.
Ads in any and all forms are the key to selling the product. If this wasn't the case then there would be no radio ads since TV ads offers so much more, but yet the same products are advertisted on the radio as well as the TV....
So FP needs print ads as well as the publicaty of the computer games.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:00 PM
65.129.166.0
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The idea of relying one just one form of ads limits WHO you reach, which is the main point here.
Ads in magazines help reach folks and thus can bring in new fans and yes it's hard to follow Bob's line of thinking since he saying that the game doesn't need new fans.
Sorry but it does and always will.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:02 PM
65.129.166.0
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Ads in magazines still reach folks, ads in all forms of the media that folks use sell products relying on a single source be it TV or the Internet is limiting your chances to reach more folks.
And if anyone needs to get their heads out of the sand it's folks like you and Bob and TPTB.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:03 PM
205.213.146.208
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'And if print ads are so expensive then there would be none done for movies or other books and games...so I doubt that statement you made is true.'
Yeah...lets compare a film, which has a fairly large budget backed by a studio that has a budget larger then the GDP of a small nation to a small game company.
Please!!! 
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:05 PM
65.129.166.0
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Let's compare the lack of advertisment by FP and the actually growth of sales for the game when compared to say Warhammer or a Playstation game...all of which get ads in other media besides the Internet or TV...
The point is FP is limiting themselves to one outlet and thus missing out on other areas that could and can help them out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:08 PM
65.129.166.0
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Folks read the magazines Bob, again just because you don't doesn't mean others don't.
I fail to see why you are so against FP doing more advertisments and thus expanding who sees and learns about BT...one would think you would be all for this or do you know something no one else does?
I am sorry but I don't see your points and I think that you are becoming the upset that some of us fail to see your point and if I was the kind, though some would say I am, to call you names I would have to say you are being the naysayer here with your anti-ADs voice.
If you feel this is an attack well, I don't know what else to say since your logic on this one has escaped me.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:14 PM
65.129.166.0
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Bob you can't be serious here, you are claiming that no one reads two of the most popular magazines in the comic book and scifi generes can you back this up?
You have said you don't read these and some how this has become an everyone doesn't kind of statement from the statement you made I fail to see how that makes it a correct or true fact.
Ads are not the much, the smaller ones are fairly cheap and the full blown page ads can't be to much hence lot's of companies use them all the time, including small and just starting out compaines.
Again your logic that FP doesn't need to advertise beyond the Internet fails to be understandable...given that such an comment goes against helping the game out and opening it up to new fans and thus allowing it to grow.
You do want the game to grow don't you?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:20 PM
65.129.166.0
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Let's see the mass number of folks who have left since the MWDA storyline and such came out speaks for the fact that fans didn't like that idea.
The MASSIVE number of current fans who have stated that they don't like or WILL change the events of the Jihad to avoid the whole nuke'm tell they glow BS again shows that the fans are upset or disapointed with the current storyline.
And the rabid defense of the current storyline shows that TPTB seem to be afraid or unwilling to see that the fans are speaking and giving their opinions on things and maybe they should listen.
And to fully answer your question there have been more to leave the game in the last 6 months then to come into it and more have dumped their MWDA collections via Ebay then before, maybe that should tell you something, but then again it won't since you are so entrenched in defending the game now that all that matters to you is getting the YES it's wonderfull opinions and ignoring the Hey this NEEDS LOTS of work opinions.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:21 PM
205.213.146.208
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Again, you are using a bad analogy. Although CBT has been around for a while, the company managing it hasnt. Fanpro is alot smaller then any of these companies that product PS games and warhammer.
Instead of complaining about this, why not just email fanpro and ask them why they arent advertising CBT? That would save everyone alot of headaches.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:25 PM
205.213.146.208
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Its a game. If you dont like the story, you dont have to follow it. I often see you creating your own alternate realities in the design forums. Any fan that doesnt like the reality can create their own.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:27 PM
65.129.166.0
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Thing is this whole topic HAS been brought to the attention of the folks at FANPRO...and all that is said is they had ONE ad and a write up in issue #23 of GAMES UNPLUGED...and while they claim said magazine is widely know and read, that doesn't seem to be the case in every single state.
And the Magazines I listed DO get wide spread reading in ALL states and BOTH are well know contrary to what Bob falsely claims.
So maybe given that some of TPTB lurk here, (hi guys!), they will see this.
So it's not arguing it's trying to give better facts to one who is misinformed and to clear up his not so correct statements.
I am sorry that you feel this isn't a worthy topic to talk about, but I think it is and it should be talked about in the hope that it will help FP and TPTB see that they need to have wider advertistments in order to increase the fan base.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:29 PM
65.129.166.0
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Yes they can and yes they do, but you hit the point on the head fans like the game, thus it gives them something and thus none of us want to see it go the way of the dodo bird...thus the need for more ads OUTSIDE of the internet.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:35 PM
65.129.166.0
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The point Bob is that with out OTHER sources of ads the game WON'T grow and thus the fan base WON'T expand and thus the game is hurt.
I find it hard to believe that you can't see this nor can I understand your lack of wanting the game to grow or advertise...is there something you know that the rest of fans don't?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:37 PM
205.213.146.208
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But there are probably reasons why they dont at this time. There could be a number of reasons why they choose that magazine too...such as cost of said ad, is widely circulated in areas where they are most likely to get new fans, not in the budget, etc.
It is an important issue, and I never said that it wasnt worth being discussed. One problem that you seem to have when it comes to discussing issues is that you put words in peoples mouth. That is a very dirty tactic that you need to work on.
'it should be talked about in the hope that it will help FP and TPTB see that they need to have wider advertistments in order to increase the fan base.'
You know what works better then hoping they see it? Sending them an email and say that you think this is an issue, and that as a fan/customer, you think that they should increase their advertising.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:38 PM
205.213.146.208
|
Give it time. I am sure there will be more ads.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:41 PM
65.129.166.0
|
I see and you tell me I am agruing the topic...funny seems that you are putting words in my mouth...
And to quote my self I said I don't see how you can't say it's not important since BASED OFF OF WHAT YOU POSTED, that is the message I got, maybe you need to explain your meanings better so as to avoid the possibilty of leaving the meaning in doubt.
Once more, I have told the powers that be about this and when Warner posted his HOW ARE WE DOING topic I posted it there. So I have pointed it out to them. How about you do the same?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/13/03 09:42 PM
65.129.166.0
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Sure and maybe BT will be back on the top of the gaming world as well... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cadet
02/13/03 09:52 PM
206.102.32.32
|
What more do I need than people saying they aren't going to follow the line anymore because they think the Jihad sucks?
Does not play well with others.
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masdog5
02/13/03 09:59 PM
205.213.146.208
|
'I see and you tell me I am agruing the topic...funny seems that you are putting words in my mouth...'
Your style is very confrontational.
I found your post to Warner about that, and it is unfortunate that he hadnt replied. I'm not sure why they havent advertised much or anything, but IIRC, Fanpro got the CBT franchise slightly over a year or two ago. They are just starting to put out new products, and with new products should come new ads.
Not to mention, I think i have seen in other threads that CBT might just be around to keep fans happy for a while until MWDA becomes a hit. I'm not saying thats what is happening, its just one possibility.
Now that project phoenix is over, I can honestly start seeing more ads. I dont think they will all be at once, though. Just give them time.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/13/03 11:06 PM
137.132.3.12
|
My local group just got another influx of players, and many of the rookies even thought CBT was a dead game, and that all the staff were doing something else. I had to go up to them, post the website link, before they realized that CBT is still alive and well.
And a mag like Games Unplugged will hardly ever reach Singapore, I think. How about some of the more well known mags? Why is it I see MW:DA ads all over the place but not a single CBT one?
If they are serious about claiming the two games are on equal footing, then they have to show it! If they're preferring one over the other, as is quite clear to everybody, then get them to SAY SO!
I don't mind if WK says that priority will be given to MW:DA, because that's the truth, and will explain their strategic choices in the market. I'll be miffed, but at least I know what they're trying to do.
But to have them say CBT will be pushed as much as MW:DA, and then not really doing anything about it, smacks to me of lying.
And I detest liars. It's the principle of the thing.
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/13/03 11:10 PM
137.132.3.12
|
Does anyone believe MW:DA was spread around initially purely by word of mouth?
No, there were cons for it. Adverts for it. Demos for it. All these were needed to make the game successful.
So yes, CBT needs the same treatment. We have two of the above, demos and cons. Now we just need a good advert to grab gamers by the balls, to pull them to the website and check it out.
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/13/03 11:15 PM
137.132.3.12
|
I agree with Bob. It's not shrinking, but it could grow even faster if there could just be some catalyst to spark interest.
Say, like a movie, a TV series, or even an MTV video!
Heck, there're already at least 30 players in the local campaign over here, and we're still getting new recruits and old birds as they find out about CBT's continued survival.
As for the jihad storyline, we're taking it one step at a time. Still in 3063, and blasting it out in the FC Civil War.
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/13/03 11:19 PM
137.132.3.12
|
All companies, including GW, started small. How did they expand their consumer base?
FanPro needs to take certain steps, including advertising, if it wants to grow/expand. Yes, it is a bit of a gamble, but one that most people here agree will help.
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/13/03 11:21 PM
137.132.3.12
|
How tough is it to put together an ad and get a mag to include it?
If they want to do it, then they had better do it soon while the MW:DA craze is still strong.
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Cadet
02/14/03 12:29 AM
206.102.32.46
|
Are more people coming in than are leaving?
Is the potential new player being reached effectively?
Does not play well with others.
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Vapor
02/14/03 03:08 AM
202.128.69.122
|
In reply to:
Not to mention, I think i have seen in other threads that CBT might just be around to keep fans happy for a while until MWDA becomes a hit. I'm not saying thats what is happening, its just one possibility.
If this is the case (big "if", I hope), then I am very disappointed with FanPro. Personally, I don't care if MW:DA becomes a hit or not, I don't think I will ever play it. I want to see CBT flourish. If MW:DA becomes a hit, great. If not, too bad. Either way, I don't want to see CBT be put aside in favore of MW:DA.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Karagin
02/14/03 12:27 PM
68.21.149.25
|
We have given them time, they have been doing stuff for a year...a year of time to get ads out and to really show folks that the game isn't dead and that it is alive just as much as MWDA...but they haven't and that speaks volumes as far as things go.
Ads in all medias or at least in those that cater to gamers and sci-fi fans are excellent areas to reach new fans, and this game needs just that new fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/14/03 12:43 PM
203.124.2.57
|
Currently, there're still new players coming in(and not a single one leaving! Those who left are all due to work or study reasons, and are temp absences only, not because of the jihad), but they need to get to the CBT message board first, which is difficult for interested newbies who have no idea what the miniatures gaming world is like.
I'm trying my best to spot those who came in thru the computer games and direct them to CBT(or from CBT to our site), but the numbers are surprisingly low for a comp game which sells as well as MW here in Singapore.
Just last week, I managed to pick up two new recruits off the CBT boards, and directed them to the forum for the local group. They did not even know there was a local CBT group, or even where the gaming shops were! Just goes to show how much more we need to do in terms of data dissemination.
For those who might be interested but do not have any idea of where in go both physically or online, there's no way CBT is reaching out to them effectively. Advertising might help, but these need to be in novels and general bookstores, not just specialized gaming mags if we need to reach out to the general public and the players. Most computer gamers I know also don't touch the mags, but they do pick up the novels, strangely enough.
Frankly speaking, every gamer who plays MechAssault, MW4, or Mechcommander is a potential recruit. WK and Fanpro need to put product tie-ins in the computer games themselves in order to inform the players of CBT or MW:DA, because there's no way a kid at 13/14 years old is gonna have an inkling of where to go, or what to do to join us. Word of mouth is useful, but reaches comparatively few 'uninformed' people. It is these 'uninformed' people that we need to reach out to.
In fact, I even know at least 3 people from my time in the army who were CBT players, but gave up years ago because they were unable to find enough people to play with. With the advent of the internet, though, organizing games, locations, and events has become a breeze. All I need to do was to post up the link, and presto, the newbie would instantly have a wealth of info at his fingertips.
But getting the very first link to them, whether the CBT board, or any one of the others like HMP, Sarna, Lords of the Battlefield, Khabal etc is the crucial, and most difficult part. Once that is accomplished, it is usually a done deal, if the gamer is interested.
Here's the link to the forum for our local campaign group. I'm sorta the unofficial rules and training master around.
http://forums.khabal.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=16
The Wobbly Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
02/14/03 02:03 PM
68.21.149.32
|
I can follow your ideas here and it comes down to ads...in other places but the net....novels, magazines etc...all will help.
I am surprised that WK and FP haven't done this and if they have it's only for MWDA and then only to support that game...
One point I disagree with you on is that computer games will look at magazines and most of them are either Pen and Paper gamers as well or collect comic books, at least that's true here in the states. So just going with the novels to get the word out again is limiting their chances to reach the boarder market of possible fans. If they are going to do ads then they should hit everything possible to ensure that they can get the majority of the areas that fans will be looking for genere related items.
Limiting things means they are selling themselves short and thus capping the numbers of possible fans and will end up hurting the game more then helping it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/14/03 02:57 PM
203.124.2.40
|
Over here, most computer gamers are just computer gamers. Sure, some of them might play other stuff like MTG and the other card games, but most computer gamers are just that. Schoolwork doesn't leave them a lot of time to do anything else(can't believe I'll be contributing to the problem as a teacher soon).
Also, minis gaming is a decidedly smaller fraction of the overall population. Heck, even pen and paper D&D isn't so hot, though it's not for lack of trying.
In fact, the most popular minis games here are BT(both versions) and Warhammer. There's nothing else. I haven't seen Heavy Gear players anywhere, and nobody goes for historical wargaming.
But yeah, FP and WK should try to hit as many spots as possible, but I think there's also an optimal level of advertising beyond which they could just be spending money for zero results. Law of diminishing returns.
All that's left is to decide which outlets offer the best returns. Over here, it's the computer games and the novels. Over at your side, it'll be the gaming mags and the comic books.
The Nice Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
02/14/03 09:47 PM
65.129.166.251
|
I agree that not everything is going to be the best to advertise in but doing so at least shows they want BT to be taken seriously.
Advertisting doesn't hurt something, but not doing so is a sure way to kill a product fast.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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realworldviews
02/16/03 01:28 AM
24.98.62.128
|
Time is something that we may not have.
By the time they start to put out more ads Fanpro may be in the same situation as FASA...
Broke and about to go out of business.
The more time that is allowed to go by the harder it will be to Save CBT.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Gangrene
02/17/03 12:32 PM
68.113.44.60
|
There are several reasons I think may be behind FanPro's lack of advertising:
1) Poor business sense
2) Lack of resources. We don't really know how big FanPro is. For all we know, this company is ran by a guy living in his parents house (no, I haven't checked into it). Maybe the company is just too small to afford an advertising campaign, or perhaps all the advertisment is overseas in their home market.
3) They might be betting that the best way to make money is to simply market it to those who already play. Battletech has a small but hardcore fanbase. Also, Btech has been around a while and maybe market analysis suggests (don't flay me for this) that Battletech is not a very sellable product.
Gangrene
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Gangrene
02/17/03 12:43 PM
68.113.44.60
|
2 - THE MOST EFFECTIVE FORM OF ADVERTISING is word-of-mouth
That's BS Bob. The most effective form of advertising is on television. Word of mouth is not that effective in this age of global communciation.
Gangrene
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Gangrene
02/17/03 12:52 PM
68.113.44.60
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>>>That whole lack of advertising is hurting the game because people just don't know about it. <<<
IF they don't, it's because they've been hiding under a rock.
LOL. Are you serious? Battletech isn't a big cultural icon. If I went to one of my friends and mentioned "Battletech" they wouldn't know what I was talking about, and if I mentioned "Mechwarrior" they would be more likely to identify it with Microsoft than a board game or RPG.
Gangrene
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Gangrene
02/17/03 01:48 PM
68.113.44.60
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That to me is the inherited problems and areas that the two game compete.
You're right, but its simpler than that. The two products do not support each other monetarily. Money from CBT does not support the development of MWDA products, or vice versa. Since both products are sold at game stores, and game store patrons have limited funds, the two systems are naturally competitors.
Gangrene
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Chunga
02/17/03 02:43 PM
66.84.240.243
|
In reply to:
2) Lack of resources. We don't really know how big FanPro is. For all we know, this company is ran by a guy living in his parents house (no, I haven't checked into it). Maybe the company is just too small to afford an advertising campaign, or perhaps all the advertisment is overseas in their home market.
Actually, Fanpro America is just one guy although I'm pretty sure he doesn't work out of his parents house.
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realworldviews
02/17/03 10:21 PM
24.98.62.128
|
Also remember Fanpro is, or at least should be, backed by WizKids. And WK spends plenty promoting MageKnight, HeroClix, and MWDA.
But then again what do I know.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Gangrene
02/17/03 10:59 PM
68.113.44.60
|
Also remember Fanpro is, or at least should be, backed by WizKids.
Who ever came up with that idea? I thought that Wizkids had simply leased the rights to produce Battletech merchandise to FanPro, not that they had guaranteed any type of assistance.
Gangrene
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:12 AM
65.129.164.63
|
I picked up the BT miniature rules book and I noticed that there where ads in the back...ads for MWDA, BT and HM products...Now the HM stuffs I can understand as well as the one for the Commandos...but an ad for BT and MWDA? That is like preaching to quior. The website info is in the front of ALL of the books, having a full page color ad for it in a BT book is like repeating a page it need not be done. The same ad could have been in oh say...Inquest, Wizard, Starlog, Dungeon or any other game related magazine, hell I have seen MWDA adds in KDOT...but alas NOTHING for BT.
And the miniature rule book really drove the point home of the future of BT...it's called MWDA...nuff said.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:17 AM
65.129.164.63
|
And the closer we get to the time where BT is gone since it will be MWDA's timeline that has been reached...
They, FP, need to do something now not next month or next year.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:19 AM
65.129.164.63
|
TV is a great media to get out a product to the public and barring that do to cost there are other ways...sadly it seems that FP or those who are in charge of their market divison seem to have forgotten things like printed ads, radio, trying to hit all gaming conventions etc....
Sad really....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/18/03 10:24 AM
205.213.145.225
|
I will tell you this one last time, and it makes perfect sense if you think about it a little.
Maybe FanPro doesnt have the resources to advertise and put out the current slate of products. It wouldnt surprise me if they didnt have enough revenue to produce their goods, pay the licensing fees, and advertise.
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:30 AM
65.129.164.63
|
IF that is true then their time is very limtied...and given that ads aren't that expensive if you research and start small, evne a small ad in magazine is better then NO ads, you can get more flash so to speak out to the public and thus increase the number of folks who know about the game....
And that color ad in the back of the BT miniature rules book could have gone in oh...Inquest or Wizard etc...and maybe one of those magazines could have even done a special on BT...oh wait that would mean that the marketing staff at WK/FP actually wanted to do something NEW with BT outside of the exsiting fan base...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/18/03 10:41 AM
205.213.145.225
|
How much does it cost to advertise in your own product: free.
How much does it cost to advertise in someone else's product: I dont know at this time. I was trying to reach Wizard or Inquests web page to see if they had any advertising info, but neither page seems to be up right now.
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:44 AM
65.129.164.63
|
Ads in your own product DON'T reach new fans, it reaches the ones who are already there...aka the OLD fans.
Cost should be on average around $300 a month depending on size color and the time run of the magazine all of which vary.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/18/03 11:01 AM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>Ads in your own product DON'T reach new fans, it reaches the ones who are already there...aka the OLD fans.
<<<
But they still cost a bare fraction of ads placed in someone else's product.
>>>Cost should be on average around $300 a month depending on size color and the time run of the magazine all of which vary. <<<
How much profit do you want to bet FanPro makes off of their $35 boxed set? It's not that much, but say it's $15. That means this ad is throwing away the revenue from TWENTY box sets EVERY MONTH. Are they going to have anywhere near that benefit from an advertisement in these magazines? I would bet against it.
I mean...$300 a month? You were just complaining about paying $35 for a box set. What makes you think FanPro has that kind of money to just randomly toss around?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/18/03 12:59 PM
207.43.145.16
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Seems they have enough to entertain the idea of redrawing every bad mech picture...
And without the ads they will not grow, thus they have NO chance of increasing the fan base.
$300 isn't that much and a simple budget would allow them to see that profits from 20 box sets or other items needs to go to advertisment then they need to PLAN for that.
Other wise they will NOT expand the fan base and thus the game is an insular type of community and zero growth happen and that means a dead game do to lack of sales, lack of expanding fan base and thus it's not profitiable to continue with the game for FP. Now is the time for them to spend some money in order to have something around later to make some of it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/18/03 01:38 PM
205.213.145.225
|
'$300 isn't that much and a simple budget would allow them to see that profits from 20 box sets or other items needs to go to advertisment then they need to PLAN for that.'
First off, if they were running without a budget, something is wrong. They shouldnt be a corporation if they dont have one. And when it comes to making a budget, I'm sure they had plans for whatever advertising they wanted to pay for.
Now lets assume that it costs 15 dollars to produce the 5th Edition Boxed Set, before paying any royalties and licensing fees to Wizkids. This 15 includes fixed costs like salaries, developments, etc and production costs like contracting out to the printer and the cost of the supplies.
For every product they product that has the Battletech name on it, they have to pay a fee to Wizkids for using it. Lets say that 2.50. That makes the cost of 17.50 just to make the product.
For every product they sell, they also have to pay a royalty to Wizkids. Again, lets say that this is 2.50. So you have a total cost of $20.
Now, if they were to sell the game at $20, they wouldnt be making a profit. They would have no new revenue to do some of the things that you want, like advertising. Then the game would really die.
Now, lets assume they set the price at $35. That means $15 in profit. With that 15, they can invest in more advertising, more possible products, and more special events like commando demos at more conventions.
Now if they sell 20 of these a month, a fairly realistic number since most of the purchasers will probably be existing players, then they make that 300 dollars that it costs to put an ad in a magazine.
'Now is the time for them to spend some money in order to have something around later to make some of it'
You have to have the money before you spend it.
You cant have it both ways. You say you want more advertising and lower prices, but unless they pass that cost onto you somehow, then they cant do it. Money just doesnt grow on trees.
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Bloodrider
02/18/03 04:49 PM
152.163.189.136
|
By my understanding, that's correct. Some people don't see it the same way, though.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:29 PM
65.129.164.179
|
Yes you do need some money before you can makes some, but so far they (FP) have had a year to get ads out for BT to show that it's still around and alive and being supported and by this I mean NON-Internet based ads, like in magazines the average game store owner is going to read as well as magazine potentinal fans will be reading and so far they HAVE NOT DONE this.
Running a series of ads in several magazines won't break FP, but the lack of them WILL. That is the point here, so far they are counting on the fans to spread the word and so far it's not a 100% sure shot thing. Shop owners WON'T carry something just based on word of mouth, they want to see ads and other things that show product A is supported by the company and that if they carry it it will be bought since it's supported.
Again a budget that says X amount for ads should be followed, not striped out to pay for semi-decent artwork or other things, by doing this it shows a lack of planning and control, now I am not saying this is happening but given the lack of ads and the fact that they have delayed products for "Better and super cool artwork" does lead to speculation that someone isn't sticking to the budget.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/19/03 01:58 AM
205.213.145.138
|
Ok, as I said before, you dont know what Fanpro has for resources. Maybe they did budget for better artwork, or maybe the excuse of holding out for better artwork means there was a delay in production for some reason.
Hell, maybe the original artwork wasnt up to snuff, and they really were folding out for better stuff.
You dont seem to be getting the point. Several reasons why they might not be placing ads have been given, and you havent done much to refute them except to say that the company will go under if they dont.
We dont have all the facts, and we have covered most of the possible reasons as to why they arent. Please, re-read this thread, and by re-read, i mean read AND comprehend, because you seem to have some problem with that.
'Again a budget that says X amount for ads should be followed, '
Please repeat after me...FANPRO IS NOT A PUBLICALLY TRADED COMPANY, SO THEIR FINANCIAL INFORMATION, INCLUDING A BUDGET, IS NOT AVAILABLE.
Now, you keep repeating the same mantra. Find some new material and learn to argue effectively.
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Nightmare
02/19/03 03:23 PM
80.222.92.246
|
>Please repeat after me...FANPRO IS NOT A PUBLICALLY TRADED COMPANY, SO THEIR FINANCIAL INFORMATION, INCLUDING A BUDGET, IS NOT AVAILABLE.
If you`re able to read text in German, FanPro has a nice-looking home page. http://www.fanpro.com/
Nothing about their financial status, but they produce and/or publish several game systems that are quite popular.
They`ve been distributing BattleTech in Germany since 1988, so the advertising on that front is probably still in order.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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realworldviews
02/19/03 03:41 PM
24.98.62.128
|
It takes money to make money.
If you are not willing to take a chance and spend some money it is nearly impossible to make money.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:26 PM
65.129.166.76
|
How about you read it again and see that ads in magazines like Starlog or Wizard aren't that much and given that just about every issue of KODT has an ad for MWDA in it, in color, suggest that the price isn't that high and seeing how KODT is limited in it's scope of WHO reads it suggest that this would be a magazine they should be adversting BT in as well.
Maybe you missed the point here, the lack of ads is hurting them and then given the increase in prices shows that they aren't bugeting or haven't come up with a really good game plan for things.
But it's clear based on your defense of their lack of thinking, that nothing said that questions the lack of ads for BT is going to get you to see anyone else's point on why they need to advertise Battletech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:28 PM
65.129.166.76
|
Damn straight. I agree with that. By not taking the time to place ads where potentional fans will see them then all they are doing is shooting themselves in the foot.
To be profitable they need to reach new fans as well as the old ones, and so far they are NOT reaching the new fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:29 PM
65.129.166.76
|
So they only have ads in Germany...and what about the market here in the US or other countries????
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/23/03 11:48 AM
137.132.3.12
|
I always thought a BT product discount voucher in any of the mechwarrior computer games would be a nice way to start people off on playing Battletech.
Heck, I'm tired of all the "Wow, there's a board game for this?!?" comments I hear from the computer gamers in my country.
The Nice Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
02/23/03 03:12 PM
65.133.242.78
|
That would be an excellent place to raise the awarness of the BT game but I don't see that happening since the computer games tend to be called MECHWARRIOR...so it's more likely that MWDA stuff would be tossed in over BT...and thus the cycle is there telling us which game is the golden child in the eyes of TPTB.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cadet
02/23/03 03:21 PM
206.102.35.3
|
We knew right from the beginning that MWDA was the main focus and that the BattleTech we all know and love was just an afterthought. I knew that right from the conference at GenCon when they said that WhizKids would be doing their thing and that they were looking into somehow continuing the Board Game, but were not yet sure what approach they would take.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
02/23/03 03:41 PM
65.133.242.78
|
I think they found their approach...suck it dry to support MWDA and force the fans to either play MWDA to stay current or risk the chance that at some point BT will no longer be worth the effort or the cost and go the way other games have gone. I think they are well on their way to doing this.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
02/23/03 06:42 PM
205.213.146.15
|
'I think they found their approach...suck it dry to support MWDA and force the fans to either play MWDA to stay current or risk the chance that at some point BT will no longer be worth the effort or the cost and go the way other games have gone. I think they are well on their way to doing this. '
Then if they are well on their way towards doing this, why would they want Fanpro to advertise this product and attract new players?
|
realworldviews
02/23/03 09:49 PM
24.98.62.128
|
That would be an excellent place to raise the awarness of the BT game but I don't see that happening since the computer games tend to be called MECHWARRIOR...so it's more likely that MWDA stuff would be tossed in over BT...and thus the cycle is there telling us which game is the golden child in the eyes of TPTB.
Too late MWDA already took advantage of that route.
MW4 and Mechassault both had free MWDA figures with their preorders.
MW4 - Zeus-X
Mech Assault - Couger
Both Unique Limited Edition Mechs for MWDA.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
|
Karagin
02/24/03 10:33 AM
68.21.149.213
|
If this doesn't tell us what to expect from WK as far as support and what is allowed for BT then I don't know what does.
Pretty clear as to where they stand on the issue of BT.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/24/03 10:35 AM
68.21.149.213
|
NEWS FLASH!:
THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ADVERTISING FANPRO BT PRODUCTS.
Beyond a single magazine write up that saw LIMITED distrubution, there has been NO ads pushing BT. Why can't you understand this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
02/24/03 10:45 AM
205.213.146.15
|
Yes, I completely understand that.
My point is this. They dont want to grow the game. They want to suck the lifeblood out of the current players.
You've had your time in the spotlight, and I think everyone gets your point. These threads about advertising are getting too long and drawn out. I think you need to just let this whole thing drop.
|
Karagin
02/24/03 10:47 AM
68.21.149.213
|
No.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
02/24/03 10:49 AM
205.213.146.15
|
No, what?
|
Karagin
02/24/03 11:59 AM
68.21.149.64
|
Read your own question again...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Chunga
02/24/03 02:48 PM
66.84.240.243
|
I think he means "No, I won't let go."
His passion is admirable, but he wants it his way.
Oh well.
Chunga
|
Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:39 PM
4.35.174.250
|
There isn't one.
The market for Battletech in the States dried up long ago. Most of the player base is in Germany. Like it or not.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/24/03 05:19 PM
68.21.149.195
|
Actually no I don't want it my way...what I want is for things to change for the better in that the fans are treated better and less like herd animals.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/24/03 05:20 PM
68.21.149.195
|
Prove this Bob, because I don't believe you.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/24/03 08:08 PM
68.21.149.102
|
Thing is the owner of the store just doesn't take one person's word for something...he wants to see the product in catologs and such so he knows that what he is ordering will sell and not just to me.
And given that many a stores still think BT is dead since FASA went out of business and FP has done NOTHING to change this via advertisments, the idea that a store owner isn't to keen on order something he or she thinks is a dead product and won't sell since their is no noticiable support for it that they see.
I am glad that you have a store that sells BT stuff to you, but don't assume that is the case everywhere else.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Gangrene
02/24/03 09:25 PM
68.113.44.60
|
My point is this. They dont want to grow the game. They want to suck the lifeblood out of the current players.
I find it funny that you say that, because some of my more cynical thoughts run along those lines. One of the real reason I think Wizkids let FanPro produce "Classic" Battletech products was to simply shut the fanbase up so as to control any bad press they may get about their clickytech system. I don't see any reason why Wizkids would bother to support CBT merchandise.
Gangrene
|
Vapor
02/24/03 10:32 PM
202.123.138.238
|
If WizKids doesn't give a damn about CBT (as several people have already stated), why don't they just give the rights to CBT to FanPro entirely. That way FanPro can do whatever they want with CBT, and WizKids can keep their clicky junk. As a paying customer, I have to say that I am very disappointed with what WizKids is doing, but it's highly unlikely that they would ever listen to me.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
|
Cadet
02/24/03 10:44 PM
206.102.32.159
|
I've been saying that since the beginning. WizKids doesn't care about FanPro EXCEPT for the licencing fees it brings in and to keep people quiet by saying, "See, we kept BattleTech alive!"
Does not play well with others.
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Gangrene
02/24/03 11:19 PM
68.113.44.60
|
If WizKids doesn't give a damn about CBT (as several people have already stated), why don't they just give the rights to CBT to FanPro entirely.
I think Wizkids would want to hang on to the trademarks. They might still have some value, even after the original game dies.
Gangrene
|
Karagin
02/24/03 11:31 PM
68.21.149.232
|
That has been said before but their cliche of YES men keep trying to claim other wise and the facts just don't support their claims...but did you really expect WK to really do anything with BT other then suck it dry?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/24/03 11:32 PM
68.21.149.232
|
As said before if someone offers Jordan the right price he would more then likely sell the BT rights, thing is the price needs to be found and like anything else in this world this has it's price...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cadet
02/25/03 12:04 AM
206.102.34.183
|
I don't know. It's my understanding that Jordan wants to keep ownership of BT (I seem to recall some article with him saying now that he has it again, he isn't going to let it go). What's more than likely is him sucking every dome out of CBT and MWDA and then when they dry up, he'll just stick BT in his closet and that'll be that.
Does not play well with others.
|
Karagin
02/25/03 12:11 AM
68.21.149.232
|
You could be right...but I think if his baby (MWDA) hits a major snag he might sell BT to the person who offers the right amount of money...
But given how tightly they have BT and MWDA interwoven I doubt it would be worth it since the disclosure would gut the game since things like MECH and MECHWARRIOR would have to be dropped etc...
Still it would be interesting to see what Jordan felt was fair offer...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cadet
02/25/03 12:16 AM
206.102.34.183
|
I believe Jordan (half-jokingly) said 25 million.
I think ~$250,000 would probably be closer to the mark, especially in a few years when MWDA has lost it's market appeal and CBT is being played by less than 5,000 people worldwide.
Does not play well with others.
|
Karagin
02/25/03 12:20 AM
68.21.149.232
|
Isn't already being played by less then 5000 people?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cadet
02/25/03 12:28 AM
206.102.34.183
|
I'm trying to be optimistic
I do figure it won't be but about 2 more years before MWDA is shoved aside for the next collectable game fad (maybe Pokemon cards again???) and then another year or so before CBT ceases to be profitable to keep open (writers and printing costs).
Does not play well with others.
|
Karagin
02/25/03 12:33 AM
68.21.149.232
|
Optimistum...must keep that in mind...
I think your prediction sounds on the money...(yes the pun was intended)...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Gangrene
02/25/03 02:20 AM
68.113.44.60
|
Sounds like a good estimate, although I think MWDA will outlast CBT. I can only see 2 more years for CBT, tops.
Gangrene
|
Vapor
02/25/03 03:27 AM
202.128.71.197
|
Yes, that estimate is probably accurate, but I still say that CBT does not have to die. It is dying because some people are too close-minded to try to make it keep growing.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:35 PM
4.35.174.250
|
Show me the gaming stores that don't carry CBT because they think it is dead, and I will show you the pissed-off fan who will call them long-distance and tell them otherwise.
*I* care about my hobby. I don't know why you don't.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 05:51 PM
68.21.149.101
|
The hobby shop right here in Big Rapids MI, then there is the Hobby Palace in Grand Rapids MI as well...that's two, plus the local Rider's Hobby isn't carrying it anymore either...
As for you last comment let me explain something to you, I do care about the game, thus I would not be harping on the areas I feel they are NOT using to reach the fans. Maybe if you stopped trying to impress folks with your attacks to impress cliche and would read things you would see this, but then again you are to worried about upseting your buddies in the Cliche to see or understand that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:53 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>The hobby shop right here in Big Rapids MI, then there is the Hobby Palace in Grand Rapids MI as well...that's two, plus the local Rider's Hobby isn't carrying it anymore either...<<<
Phone numbers, Karagin.
What, you don't think I'm serious?
I'm going to CALL these morons and tell them EXACTLY where to buy the product.
>>>As for you last comment let me explain something to you, I do care about the game,<<<
Prove it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 05:54 PM
68.21.149.101
|
Do your own leg work...
And I have proven it Bob...how about you proving it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:57 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>Do your own leg work...<<<
That's what I thought.
Places probably don't even exist.
>>>And I have proven it Bob...how about you proving it... <<<
Let's see....I volunteer my time to help moderate FanPro's message board. I offer to call [censored] long-distance to set shop owners straight. All you ever [censored] do is BITCH. What the hell have YOU proven? [censored].
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 06:01 PM
68.21.149.101
|
Right Bob they don't exist...I can see that if you have to actually work you don't want to do it...
As for your other comments...bought sounds better.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 06:06 PM
4.35.174.250
|
>>>Right Bob they don't exist...<<<
I have no way of knowing they do.
You've not even bothered to give me their names.
I'm not going to freaking FLY out there. I'm not that rich.
You don't care to improve the situation? Shows how much YOU care. The proof is in the pudding, my friend.
>>>As for your other comments...bought sounds better. <<<
Maybe I'm just stupid, but this comment doesn't make any sense to me.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 06:11 PM
68.21.149.101
|
Frist I am not your friend, and I gave you the names of two of them, I am sorry that you can't figure out the rest for you self...
I think you answered your own question with your last comment...
Have a nice day.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 06:17 PM
4.35.174.250
|
Yes, you gave me names for two of them, and a city for two more.
This means I could contact, at maximum, one.
Heh. Guess I'll work on that one, since you don't care.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 06:19 PM
68.21.149.101
|
If you say so Bob, you and your cliche buddies are right and it's only you and them that care and thus the rest of us should be greatful that you and they are carrying on the game for us...(rolls eyes)...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 06:25 PM
4.35.174.250
|
clique, not cliche.
And I am not a member of one. I'm the friendliest guy you'll ever meet, not an exclusionist. Too bad for you that you're an [censored].
And you clearly DON'T give a [censored], otherwise, you'd be helping to set people straight instead of just sitting around on here whining.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 06:32 PM
68.21.149.101
|
If you say so Bob...nice attack...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Cadet
02/25/03 07:48 PM
206.102.32.52
|
How does saying we want more advertisement , a better product, and reasonable prices equate with NOT caring for the game? That's no different than Stackpole telling us that even though we bought everything, we didn't do enough. In short, it doesn't make sense.
I can't speak for Karagin, but I can tell you that I do care about the hobby and I am vocal for one reason: I cannot and will not simply accept medicority. I honestly don't know what more I can do to care than to hold their feet to the fire and demand something better than the previous product.
I don't bitch because I'm bored Bob. I do it because I care and want the game to be the best it possibly can be.
I'm not a cheerleader for mediocrity.
Does not play well with others.
|
Karagin
02/25/03 09:27 PM
68.21.149.158
|
I second that...I am not complaining to just complain...I am trying to point out the areas I see that are problems or don't seem to be covered or in all honesty handled poorly.
If that is not caring then well I guess you are right I don't care...I am sorry that I am not a moderator on CBT and I am sorry I don't lord insider info over folks heads or kowtow to things I don't believe in...
If my asking for advertisement and cheaper but quailty products is wrong then tell me Bob, no better yet tell all of us, how FP is going to improve if all they here is that they are doing a wonderful job?
I agree with Cadet, they (FP) need to be held to the fire and made to see that there are problem areas that need to be addressed and dealt with and not in a lackluster nature...they need to be treated seriously.
Maybe it's time for FanPro to start listening fully to the fans and less to one person...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Chas
02/25/03 10:25 PM
66.187.4.132
|
"a better product, and reasonable prices"
But how do you reconcile these two?
They're not mutually exclusive. But there IS a point where they have to balance out.
I mean, we don't want full-color hardcover tomes that are thicker than the proverbial Unix manual and printed in gold leaf on vellum for $500 a pop?
Well.....maybe we do. But most of us couldn't afford it.
;-)
And we don't want the an artless, photostatted and stapled pad of paper for $5 either.
"Reasonable" is one thing. But ask Randall and Rob about the production costs for the boxed set. Then ask Randall how much it cost to put out 4th Edition. And take a look at the difference there.
And there's gotta be SOME profit margin in there. Otherwise it isn't worth the time and effort to put out.
I highly doubt that Randall & Co. are eating steak instead of Hamburger Helper over this.
It all boils down to this. Would you rather see:
A) A product that's more expensive due to greater production costs
B) No product at all because someone judged the price-point for it to be "too expensive".
As to the product being....mediocre. Remember, this is the basic boxed set. It's not going to be a stunning masterpiece of unpublished material.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
02/25/03 10:33 PM
66.187.4.132
|
"I don't complain just to complain."
The problem is not that you're complaining. It's that you're complaining, but not putting forth any constructive criticism, or solutions to the problems. Just "you gotta do it different". Which is even worse than useless.
"I am sorry that I am not a moderator on CBT and I am sorry I don't lord insider info over folks heads or kowtow to things I don't believe in..."
This has nothing to do with it and you know it. Your problem with the aforementioned people is entirely due to your refusal to maintain even a modicum of politeness.
"If my asking for advertisement and cheaper but quailty products is wrong then tell me Bob"
Again, it's not. But you need to put forth some ideas on how to go about it.
"they (FP) need to be held to the fire and made to see that there are problem areas that need to be addressed and dealt with and not in a lackluster nature"
Do you really, HONESTLY think that they don't know about some of these areas? And do you think they're not trying to rectify them? Again, here's where the CONSTRUCTIVE criticism and truly helpful ideas come in.
"Maybe it's time for FanPro to start listening fully to the fans and less to one person.."
They're listening. You just have to give them something they can actually listen to.
"This sucks, that sucks, you suck, they suck, it all sucks!" isn't worth the effort of tuning in to.
"This sucks, and here's an idea about how to go about fixing it" is something they may actually listen to.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Cadet
02/25/03 10:55 PM
206.102.33.120
|
But Chas, we have complained about specifics. We've said the art was subpar. We get more of the same. We've said the writing isn't good enough. We get more from the same authors. We've said the storyline isn't acceptable for various reasons. We're told "tough" or "trust us". We've said we want more advertising to get new blood in the game and we're told it isn't going to happen. We haven't been bitching just to bitch.
All I'm doing is holding them to a high standard. When they aren't meeting my expectations, I'll tell them. I can't imagine anyone who really loves the game doing any less than demanding the best possible product and calling them on it when the product isn't the best.
Does not play well with others.
|
Cadet
02/25/03 11:12 PM
206.102.33.120
|
I understand that price and production values will reach an equilibrium. I'm not talking about the 5th ed box set (for the record I haven't seen it open). I'm talking in general here.
Example: FM:P was full of recycled art. Now, I'm willing to pay for the book, but I want more than recycled art. If I'm getting recycled art, I want a cheaper book. If I'm expected to pay for a new book, I want new material.
As far as the price for the box set, it isn't unreasonable for them to drop the profit margin to get that introductory product out. Sucker the people in and get them hooked. The add ons is where the profit comes from, unless you expect you customer base to not buy anything else.
But we're coupled with no advertisement to speak of and an introductory product that really is marketed to people who already are involved with the game, so maybe it doesn't amount to anything more than getting while the getting's good. I'd like to think it's more than that, but I'm seeing decisions I just don't understand coming out of FanPro.
I'll admit the 5th ed box set sounds good, and I'm withholding judgemtn on it because I haven't seen it. My objections are not specific toward that single product, but toward the products in general. That is where my comments on mediocrity come from. Now maybe I'm a little jaded, but you can only show me so many poor products, and only tell me "trust us, it'll be great" so many times before I simply lose faith, especially when I see the new products and it is just as bad, or worse, than the last.
Does not play well with others.
|
Chunga
02/25/03 11:23 PM
24.211.11.205
|
RIDER'S HOBBY SHOP
(616) 247-9933
I can't find a Hobby Palace in Grand Rapids. The only other is:
E J'S HOBBIES
7017 CASCADE RD SE GRAND RAPIDS, MI 49546-7304
(616) 942-0285
HOBBY CONNECTION
119 N MICHIGAN AVE BIG RAPIDS, MI 49307-1401
(231) 796-3217
Any of those?
|
Karagin
02/25/03 11:33 PM
68.21.149.113
|
Thank you again for doing just what you claim I am doing. Here I am pointing out the areas I feel need work and you are attacking me over it.
It is amazing how quick you and the others in clique are so fast to try and shut down anyone who speaks out...what are you afraid of? Why is it so important that you have to attack everyone who isn't thrilled over the way the game is going?
And before you spout out the company line of we should be happy to have the game etc...think again, it's better the game had pasted on with something of diginty then linger on and not improve.
If you are serious about things as you claim then you would stop with the attack and listen when folks point out the areas they feel need work or have a problem or 10 with and then try to do something about them. But no it's eaier to attack and slam then to listen to the fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/25/03 11:34 PM
68.21.149.113
|
Hobby Place is on Kalamazoo Ave in GR...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/25/03 11:38 PM
68.21.149.113
|
How about quailty product for a decent price UNDER $30 and stop with the line of it's better have the crap that we do then nothing at all.
How about actually listening to the fans when they say you need to advertise and you need to get products out on time and you need to do more then hope that the fans can convince the stores to carry a product that has NO offical support beyond a single authorized web page...and before you point out all the fan sites...I would point you to the Renegade Legion sites and tell me where that game is...
How about dropping the Demi-God crap and start listening to the fans 100% without tuning out the parts you don't want to hear...that would be the best way to improve.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
masdog5
02/25/03 11:40 PM
205.213.146.254
|
And how do you propose that they do this?
|
Karagin
02/25/03 11:41 PM
68.21.149.113
|
Nicely done and you summed up how I feel on things as well...this Chas is something you folks need to listen too...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
realworldviews
02/26/03 01:00 AM
24.98.62.128
|
I don't think I remember seeing this gone into but...
Yes WizKids should be helping FanPro out with advertising.
Why, because heck WK has but ads for MWDA into a CBT product (CBT Mini Rules), hmmmm... I wonder if their is also an ad for MWDA in the Box Set.
Does anyone know if their is?
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
|
Karagin
02/26/03 02:40 AM
68.21.149.113
|
There is only one ad in the Box Set and it's one the back of the quick set rules...ads are for the BMR-R, the box set and TR3025 revised, there is enough Wizkid logos on everything though so it's pretty clear who is making the game...
WK has ads for MWDA everyone in the game world...hell they even have them in KODT and Evernights Comics...but alas NOT a single ad for BT anywhere...and NO Games Unplugged doesn't count since that one isn't widely distributed or read...and a news flash for TPTB...NONE of the major book dealers care it NOR does Alliance, I asked the person I buy games from and he check and guess what Alliance doesn't carry it...so how about placing ads in other magazines that are actually findable and thus able to reach the potentional fans...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Karagin
02/26/03 02:47 AM
68.21.149.113
|
Simple as Cadet suggested drop the filler art, dicth the map and keep it simple...level 1 rules only...use this product to hook the new fans into getting the other products and with the low price of the box set they will be more likely to tell their buddies and thus more folks buy it...
So a simple rule set that gives them the nit and grit without any complex rules, and decent but not overdone product that hints to bigger and better things in the products like...THE BMR-R or the TROs...all the while keeping the folks entertained...
So a simple rule book, some counters, cardboard is fine, but as a bonus have a surprise in there of one or two plastic mechs mainly to get the new fan interested into buying the miniatures, dice, a couple of maps and that is all that is needed.
Save cool art work for the sourcebooks and the box cover, hire a decent artist though...and the push ads all over the place for the box set.
Same thing I have been saying since this thread started and the same thing I have been saying in the other threads...they need to advertise and they need to stop trying to create masterpieces when simple will do and it will sell.
KEEP IT SIMPLE...works for a lot of things and this is a prime example where it would work better then monster we have.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
|
Chas
02/26/03 10:22 AM
66.187.3.118
|
"But Chas, we have complained about specifics"
As I've said. Complaining does nothing.
Offering actual suggestions as to how to rectify the situation is useful.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
02/26/03 10:26 AM
66.187.3.118
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"Thank you again for doing just what you claim I am doing. Here I am pointing out the areas I feel need work and you are attacking me over it."
And I repeat. Disagreement with you isn't an attack.
Additionally, as you seem to be ignoring the point as well, simply going "this sucks" does jack squat. If you can't supply actual constructive criticism, you may as well not say anything. You're wasting your breath and your time.
"It is amazing how quick you and the others in clique are so fast to try and shut down anyone who speaks out"
Contrary to what you may believe, I don't want you to shut up. I want you to back up what you're saying with useful solutions.
Once you actually realize this, you should stop feeling so put-upon.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/26/03 10:30 AM
66.187.3.118
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"How about quailty product for a decent price UNDER $30 "
Okay. Now the million dollar question.
HOW?
"How about actually listening to the fans"
If the fans can provide actual constructive suggestions, they'll listen.
Simply going "you gotta do this" means nothing.
"How about dropping the Demi-God crap "
How about dropping the "poor abused me" act? You're not being abused. You're being asked to back up what you're saying with actual workable solutions.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Cadet
02/26/03 11:44 AM
206.102.33.27
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We've done that too. We've pointed out time and again specifically what went wrong and how to fix it and we're told "tough" or "trust us".
It isn't just saying "it sucks". We keep telling then where their product is flawed and it isn't being corrected. And ultimately it is managements responsibility to fix the problem. That is what they get paid for. If they are unwilling or unable to fix the problems, then they need to go.
Does not play well with others.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:03 PM
68.21.149.180
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Do read the posting? I have given ideas on HOW now how about you read and stop assuming I am not answering your questions...
And please drop the holier than thou crap...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:05 PM
68.21.149.180
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I have given ideas on how to improve things, either you are not reading the posting I post or your are assuming because it's me then it's automatcially wrong...
READ the posting again, I have give idea and suggestion, how about you stop ignorig them and stop attacking folks and stop with holier then thou attitude and maybe we won't have these problems...
Now please go and read things again...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:09 PM
68.21.149.180
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WTF? We have offered them, and your buddies slam us, we have given better ways to move the game forward and we get attacked.
What the hell do you want since everything we suggest is slammed and attacked by you and your buddies...I have posted ideas on HOW they can better advertise and HOW they could have done a better Box Set for less, so has Cadet and others, yet you and the rest of your clique seem to miss all that and just simply attack and slam and then say you are just disagree...
I can see that no matter what is offered you and the other aren't going to look at it since to you there is nothing wrong and all we are doing is being naysayers and mean folks since we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape since the alterturntive is not to have the game...(rolls eyes)...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Gangrene
02/26/03 03:56 PM
68.113.44.60
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Yes WizKids should be helping FanPro out with advertising.
Why, because heck WK has but ads for MWDA into a CBT product (CBT Mini Rules),
The business world does not operate on the honor system. Jordan Weisman, or whatever his name is, probably does not view the two games as equals. Certainly one moves a lot more merchandise than the other. If they don't have them already, I don't think you should expect MWDA products to have advertisements for CBT any time soon.
Gangrene
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masdog5
02/26/03 04:05 PM
205.213.146.254
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'Simple as Cadet suggested drop the filler art, dicth the map and keep it simple...'
I would agree with the filler art. Maybe they dont need so much of it. But the map should be kept. The boxed set introduces the player to the universe, and having that, along with the Universe book, gives the new player a sense of how big everything really is.
'level 1 rules only'
That might have worked for the previous editions of the boxed sets, but I doubt that it would work in the current timeline. Having some simple rules to introduce the players is a definite, but the goal of hte boxed set is to give a player everything they need to play level 2 battletech. The BMR is there to clarify rules and expand on them. Its helpful, but not nessecary.
Having the two sets of rules would be good because it would allow the new players to slowly transition from one set to the other without another product. Remember, it is a game, and you dont have to play by all the rules if the players agree to that.
'but as a bonus have a surprise in there of one or two plastic mechs mainly to get the new fan interested into buying the miniatures'
I dont think that is nessecary. Including a special edition metal mini might spark interest in the mini version of hte game, but a few plastic looking ones might push players more towards MWDA. Putting a metal mini in there would make cost prohibitive and drive it up further, so I think the came can do without the miniatures in the boxed set.
'So a simple rule book, some counters, cardboard is fine, but as a bonus have a surprise in there of one or two plastic mechs mainly to get the new fan interested into buying the miniatures, dice, a couple of maps and that is all that is needed. '
Besides the mini thing which I covered above, the game needs some sort of introduction to the universe. A universe book is very important to introduce players to the different factions, possibly including a sample unit or two just to give them a taste of each faction. It doesnt have to be much, just a few pages about each group, and the unit pages should be laid out like in the FMs.
I think the players would be hooked more if they knew about the rich history, politics, and story of the game universe.
One thing that could be done better is some of the writing. Since there is a large BT community with a number of aspiring authors, FP could do some fan contests where the winners will be included in a product. Another option would be to include some excerpts from the novels.
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Karagin
02/26/03 04:43 PM
65.132.126.249
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By going ONLY with level one rules it let's folks learn the game and then advance if they want to...simple hints about better thing in level 2 and more weapons and other toys will get folks to explore those products...hence they buy the BMR-R. Also this cuts down on the page count of the rule book.
Remember this is a starting point for new fans NOT the complex been playing for years part that involes level 2 and three stuff.
News Flash:
THERE IS NO UNIVERSE BOOK IN THE BOX SET. NONE. Just a rule book and the quick play rules...so the map can go and should have been the special deal for FM UPDATES....
The bonus of the miniature let's folks see that they can replace the cardboard counters with better miniatures...it's a great way to cross sell the miniatures and to really get the fans hooked on the game...each part HAS to support the other.
Again there is no universe book in there...brief write ups work just as well and the whole overview history of the Inner Sphere can be done like they did in 2nd ED box set rule book with side bars...thus page count stays down and the same point is gotten across.
This way the cost would NOT have gone up as it did and then buying FM Updates would really be important to the established fans since we would be getting the new map.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/26/03 06:07 PM
205.213.146.254
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'THERE IS NO UNIVERSE BOOK IN THE BOX SET. NONE. Just a rule book and the quick play rules...'
First off, the caps arent nessecary.
I dont know about the box you got, but every place i look that sells the boxed set says that it is supposed to come with a universe book. If you didnt get one, I would take it back and exchange it for one that should have it.
If you want to keep fans interested in the game, that would be a very important thing to have. Every RPG game that I have ever bought dedicated an ample amount of space to describing the universe that it was set in. It didnt go into too many specifics, since many of these books (all white wolf or star wars/star trek) occurred in a version of our reality or in a popular fiction reality. While Battletech is a popular fiction reality, there are a number of sublties that do need to be explained to anyone new to the universe.
'Remember this is a starting point for new fans NOT the complex been playing for years part that involes level 2 and three stuff.'
Yes, I know. That is why starter rules are important. But if you dont give them something that would allow them to play at the current level of gameplay, then players are going to lose interest and put the game away.
Think of it this way. You buy a board game that says it includes everything you need to play. You get it home, open it up, and then when you start playing, you find out that there is a higher level of play that is considered standard, but in order to play at the standard level, you need to spend more money to buy those rules. Frankly, I wouldnt be happy. I would expect that the tournament rules be included with the game.
By not including the Level 2 rules, you fail to provide them everything they need to play Classic Battletech at the tournament level.They dont have to use these rules until they feel comfortable with the game, but at least they will have them to try out without having to spend more money on another product.
'The bonus of the miniature let's folks see that they can replace the cardboard counters with better miniatures...it's a great way to cross sell the miniatures and to really get the fans hooked on the game...each part HAS to support the other.'
Yet you dont want to include level 2 rules, which are the tournament standard? Hmm..interesting. Like i said before, plastic minis arent used in the game, so if you want to include one, FP would be better served to have a special edition metal mini included with the set.
Also, while you want to allude to level 2 rules in the rule book, I think that it would be better to alude to the mini rules in the book. That way, you arent promising the customer something and failing to deliver on that, you are merely offering an expansion product.
'then buying FM Updates would really be important to the established fans since we would be getting the new map.'
Like it wont be already? This is like the 20 year update. Besides, if the map is that important, im sure the SLDF Mapping Agency will have a free PDF version within a month or two.
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TwoYearLurker
02/26/03 07:36 PM
4.17.223.29
|
In reply to:
Yes WizKids should be helping FanPro out with advertising.
Why? FanPro has a license from WizKids, right? Why is it WizKid's responsiblity to do FanPro's job?
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TwoYearLurker
02/26/03 07:59 PM
4.17.223.29
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Interesting that your first two choices are subjective. What if more people like the art and writing than the people who don't? Do you tell the majority of the people that things are going to change, or do you continue along?
As for the storyline, again we're floating into the realm of the subjective, but we're also dealing with factionalization (I think that's a word). I know the Capellans are pretty happy with where the storyline has gone, watching the FedCom suffer like it has. And the Ghost Bears seem to be content, getting their entire population into the Inner Sphere. This Dark Age thing? Who knows how it will end up. All told, there are two novels for it, and a smattering of short stories. Is that enough for final judgement? Maybe in your book it is, but I'm still waiting to see what's next.
By the way, who is Robert E. Vardeman? He's doing the next novel, and I don't think I've seen his name in BattleTech anywhere.
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Cadet
02/26/03 08:15 PM
206.102.33.26
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Subjective isn't a bad word. I pay my money, I get my voice. If enough people offset my voice, good for them. But it isn't like mine is the only voice with doubts. The point is, I'm not just saying "it sucks!" I'm pointing out exactly what I think is wrong with it and how to fix it. The problem is I get called NAYSAYER! and FEAR-MONGER! for it.
Does not play well with others.
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realworldviews
02/26/03 11:39 PM
24.98.62.128
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Hmm..interesting. Like i said before, plastic minis arent used in the game.
What you don't have/use any of the Plastech minis or the minis that came in the 3rd Ed Box Set (I think it was 3rd will have to double check that later) or the CityTech box?
I don't know about you but I use my plastic minis all the time.
I also hope they will do another Plastech series, they are so much lighter and I don't have to worry about breaking them apart in transit.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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realworldviews
02/26/03 11:47 PM
24.98.62.128
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Jordan Weisman, or whatever his name is, probably does not view the two games as equals. Certainly one moves a lot more merchandise than the other. If they don't have them already, I don't think you should expect MWDA products to have advertisements for CBT any time soon.
Of course not. Why expect ads for a system that no one at WK cares about. And what would be the harm with some more cross advertising. WK put MWDA ads in CBT why not work the other way. Place a few small adds in some of the MWDA products.
But noooo...
That make cut into the cashcow MWDA is.
People might actually start buying CBT again. Now why would we want something like that to happen.
(can't you just see the sarcasm)  
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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masdog5
02/26/03 11:55 PM
205.213.146.15
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I knew they had a plastech set from long ago, and I know 3rd edition had some pretty bad plastic ones...but I wasnt aware that there were many of those left.
I also wasnt aware of the plastic ones from citytech.
My bad.
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Gangrene
02/27/03 02:11 AM
68.113.44.60
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I don't know about you but I use my plastic minis all the time.
When I play I like to use my plastic minis. The metal minis are too fragile, and I hate having to glue them together. I can't seem to get into the whole mini construction/detailing scene that others seem to enjoy so much.
I wish FanPro would release more plastic minis, but that would probably be a money-wasting venture.
Gangrene
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Karagin
02/27/03 08:17 AM
65.129.164.151
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Mainly because WK seems to not be allowing FP to advertise and if WK is serious about BT then they would allow it to be advertised along side or with the MWDA products...so far they aren't doing this thus it points to the idea that BT is not something they are worried about or want to see it go any where beyond a money cow for MWDA.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 08:28 AM
65.129.164.151
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NO WHERE ON THE BOX SET DOES IT SAY A UNIVERSE BOOK IS INCLUDED!
Where did you see this one the box? I have yet to see and I read the back of it and the write up for it from the flyer IN the box set itself and NOTHING says anything about a universe book.
And yes the caps are needed to get the fact out to you that there is NO book just the map. No a universe book is something that should be a seperate, BUT a brief write up on the universe similar to what was done in the 2nd ED rule book would be enough.
Starting rules should not be level 2 rules but level 1, that way it's easier to get the folks into the game and then they can advance if they want to by buying the BMR-R and the other products which allows them to grow into the game with out beening forced to.
First off 80% of the fans DON'T play in tournments...so there is no need to have the level 2 rules in the box set. They belong in the BMR-R and that allows the fans to make the choice if they wish to go further in learning new rules or not.
The minis like the map are eye candy...flash to hook the new fans and they are simpler to use then the level 2 rules since the mini would be the counter nothing more...you don't need level 2 rules to use a miniature for a counter.
Yes like in the 20 year up date the map should be in the FM update book since that is suppose to be the big update...hence the map could have and should have been the golden fleece for that book NOT the box set.
And if they are going to do a free one then why go throught the trouble of making it on paper and tossing it into the box set? Again the FM:U would have been the better spot for it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 08:32 AM
65.129.164.151
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In reply to:
By the way, who is Robert E. Vardeman? He's doing the next novel, and I don't think I've seen his name in BattleTech anywhere.
Actually he is writing the next MWDA novel which is NOT a BT novel, so you are right he never did anything with BT and in fact up until now most folks have NOT heard of him...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 08:35 AM
65.129.164.151
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Good point about the name callling and labeling...we point out why we feel something isn't right or needs work and the same vocal mouthpieces for FP and it's products are the same ones who attack us. And Cadet is right it's not just him and I, others have spoken out and been slammed because of it.
Yes some folks say things suck and leave it at that, others do try to give a reason and do so with the hope that TPTB are listening as they say they are and will do something about the areas or at least look at the issues with open minds. But based on the actions of their spokepersons on the net that doesn't seem to be the case at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/27/03 11:01 AM
205.213.146.15
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'Where did you see this one the box? I have yet to see and I read the back of it and the write up for it from the flyer IN the box set itself and NOTHING says anything about a universe book.'
I have yet to see the box because my normal gaming stores are in a different state while I am at school. However, I have seen the write-ups of the product on both Classic Battletech's Website and Cyberdungeon.Com. Both site's writeups say that the set includes a Universe Book in addition to the map.
If I were you, I would take the box set you have back and try to exchange it for one that has everything.
'No a universe book is something that should be a seperate, BUT a brief write up on the universe similar to what was done in the 2nd ED rule book would be enough.'
I havent seen the 2nd Edition Boxed Set, so I cant really know what you are taking about. However, making a small book that covers most of the universe, its history, and some general info on the different factions and maybe a unit or two would make the game more interesting for new players. The more information you have, the more play options you have, and the more people will want to play the game.
'Starting rules should not be level 2 rules but level 1,'
Never said that they shouldnt be. In fact, I agree with that.
'that way it's easier to get the folks into the game'
I agree completely.
'then they can advance if they want to by buying the BMR-R and the other products which allows them to grow into the game with out beening forced to.'
Dont try turning this into DnD where you have to buy half the line of products just to develop a standard game. Level 2 rules are the standard, so some version should be included in the box set since it includes everything you need to play. And just because something is in the game doesnt mean you are forcing them to use it. It would allow interested players to experiment with the rules without having to buy the BMR,and then if they are interested in the other rules such as battlemech construction, infantry rules, etc, they can get the BMR.
'First off 80% of the fans DON'T play in tournments'
Where did you get this figure? And even if 80% dont do tournament play, how many play with level 2 rules?
'The minis like the map are eye candy...flash to hook the new fans and they are simpler to use then the level 2 rules since the mini would be the counter nothing more...you don't need level 2 rules to use a miniature for a counter.'
Ok, let me get this straight. You dont want to include level 2 rules and a map to keep costs down, but then you want to throw in plastic minis. I'm not seeing how this is going to raise the quality of the product and keep cost down, two of your main reasons for not wanting to include the above items. The plastic minis will be an unnessecary expense in a product that you already think is overpriced.
You said yourself that they are eye candy, which makes them as nessecary as the map.
'hence the map could have and should have been the golden fleece for that book NOT the box set.'
I'll agree with that.
'And if they are going to do a free one then why go throught the trouble of making it on paper and tossing it into the box set? Again the FM:U would have been the better spot for it. '
You're right. They could have rolled the map cost into the printing cost for the book.
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masdog5
02/27/03 11:10 AM
205.213.146.15
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'others do try to give a reason and do so with the hope that TPTB are listening as they say they are and will do something about the areas or at least look at the issues with open minds.'
I think that is part of the problem. If you felt strongly enough about these issues that you really wanted to see them changed, you wouldnt just post it in a message board hoping that someone sees it, you would make sure that the people at FP and WK heard your complaint. These people do have emails, in fact, I found one on the cyberdungeon website for 'Frank "Crazy" Werschke.'
Talking about these issues is good, but if you hope to get something out of those talks without presenting it to someone at FP, you are deluding yourself. You have to communicate your thoughts directly to the people in charge of the game, or you stand a great chance of any issues you come up with not being looked at.
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Chunga
02/27/03 12:17 PM
66.84.240.243
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Ok, and what are you basing THIS accusation on?
Not everything should be a conspiracy against Wizkids.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/27/03 12:33 PM
66.84.240.243
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In reply to:
'Starting rules should not be level 2 rules but level 1,'
Never said that they shouldnt be. In fact, I agree with that.
A terrible idea. The absolute icon of the game is the Mad Cat. It's on the covers of most of the video games and books. Its distinctive look is what will hook new players. That Atlas is damn cool, but if you all want the cross promotion to work, Clan mechs HAVE to be available in the box set. If someone plays Mech Assault and decides they want to play, the moment they find the mechs and weapons (and don't even mention the lava cannon or the Ragnarok), they're done with the board game.
Sad, but true, the Clan mechs have to be in there.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/27/03 01:42 PM
65.146.75.2
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Let's see...no new BT novels since we are told none are planned, lack of advertistment for BT but an unheard of amount for MWDA and the list goes on and on and on...
And it's not an accusation...just a repeating of known facts, I am sorry that you feel different about this then I do.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 01:44 PM
65.146.75.2
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NO they don't. Start the new fans off with the 3025 tech and then let them move on to the other stuff on their own...and the icon mech for BT is the Warhammer or Marauder.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 01:55 PM
65.146.75.2
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To cover the box set:
The box was wrap in plastic, it had a couple of playing maps, the quick start rules, the rule book, dice, mech counters and stands, and the map of the universe. Oh and the flyer for the games...byeond that nothing else was in the box and nothing on the back cover said anything about a universe book.
And I personally know the person I bought it from and I know he would NOT open it and then reseal it. So I know I got just what was packaged in the box set and I trust what's on the box itself over a write up on the web since the box is the actual product.
The idea of mixing the universe book into the rule book was done in the 2nd ED Box Set, what you had was the on the side bars of the pages you had the history of the Inner Sphere, some of the major units and people while the rest of the page had rules on them...kept things simple and in one book. Plus the box set at the time had two maps, cardboard counters, plastic holders for the counters, the above mentioned rule book, dice and a catolog of FASA products and all for around $20 or so.
As for the rest you are forgetting this the box set is the begining point, thus it needs to be as simple as possible. Save the more complex rules for the BMR-R, thus if the new player wishs to move on into the relam of Level 2 then they can.
I got the figure from comments made on here, CBT, Mordel's and other BT boards, and it's also based on convos with folks at conventions. Most of them want either to fight a battle with a scenrio to it or a big free for all...so out of that grouping it's clear that not everyone wants or needs Tournment rules and thus the idea that you have to know level 2 rules to play is wrong. The tournments should be setup to cover all skill and knowdelege levels.
The two minis tossed in would be more of eye candy...remember there would be a catolog with all of the products and the new player would look at this...so they would see that there is a wealth of stuff for the game, the miniatures are there for them to see that they have other options. Miniatures are NOT a level 2 thing so yes they should be there since you can use them on the hex maps. Yes they are not a nesscarily needed but wouldn't hurt, where as the map really doesn't do anything for the new players.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 01:58 PM
65.146.75.2
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Well based on past experience with certain folks on the offical boards things like this are not welcome, I am sure I could have posted it but being attacked over this isn't what I want and seeing how Randal and the others are know to lurk the BT boards they will see it.
And given that I made sure to cover the major boards with this I do believe they will hear about it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/27/03 02:05 PM
205.213.146.15
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Its this simple. If there is something htat is wrong, and you want something done about it, follow these steps.
1. Figure out what the problem is.
2. Come up with a solution.
3. Present it to someone who can do something about it in a readable format.
If you want these issues taken care of that badly, email the people at FP and tell them what you think is a problem and what they can do about it. They wont listen to anything you say on a message board, no matter how valid it is, because its similar to watercooler gossip in a workplace.
So take everything you want to see done, right it out clearly, and email it to the people at Fanpro. You may not see it all done, but you will get reasons why it cant be done.
Dont take the reactions of a message board or three as the official position of FanPro. Remember, they are the ones who put out hte product, and except in some circumstances, will rarely come to you to find out if there is a problem. You have to go to them.
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masdog5
02/27/03 02:09 PM
205.213.146.15
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In some regards, I agree with Karagain. In order to make things simple for some new players, level one rules would be included to help them learn the game. But I also feel that level 2 rules should be included for those who want to play with Clan tech or some of the new IS tech.
This would allow players to choose which level they start at.
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Karagin
02/27/03 02:11 PM
65.146.75.2
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Thank you for the ideas...as for taking something from the message boards as finial FP word well given you states it and how they try to come over as the main spokesperson for the company leaves little doubt of that since no one else from the company posts or does anything to counter it so that one person's actions end up speaking for the company...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/27/03 02:16 PM
205.213.146.15
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'I got the figure from comments made on here, CBT, Mordel's and other BT boards, and it's also based on convos with folks at conventions. Most of them want either to fight a battle with a scenrio to it or a big free for all...so out of that grouping it's clear that not everyone wants or needs Tournment rules and thus the idea that you have to know level 2 rules to play is wrong. The tournments should be setup to cover all skill and knowdelege levels.'
Tournament play is usually level 2. Therefore, level 2 rules should be included since it is the standard level of play.
'The two minis tossed in would be more of eye candy...remember there would be a catolog with all of the products and the new player would look at this...so they would see that there is a wealth of stuff for the game, the miniatures are there for them to see that they have other options. Miniatures are NOT a level 2 thing so yes they should be there since you can use them on the hex maps. Yes they are not a nesscarily needed but wouldn't hurt, where as the map really doesn't do anything for the new players. '
My beef with the minis has nothing to do with lvl 1 or lvl 2 rules. You have said throughout the thread that you want to see the cost of the boxed set reduced, and that could be accomplished by removing things. If you want paper products removed to cut cost because you see them as eye candy, then why would you want to include other pieces of eye candy? Woudlnt that cause some increase in cost when you want to lower it?
'Plus the box set at the time had two maps, cardboard counters, plastic holders for the counters, the above mentioned rule book, dice and a catolog of FASA products and all for around $20 or so.'
You also have to realize that due to inflation, $20 bucks was worth alot more when the second edition came out back in the late 80s, early 90s.
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Karagin
02/27/03 02:28 PM
65.146.75.2
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Tournment rules differ from level 2 rules since things can be exculded like C3 Systems or Artillery or Beagle Probes etc...so they are NOT offical rules and thus the need of level 2 rules in the box set are have no place, since again this is a starting point for new players, a nice way to let them know about the level 2 rules is to have a single page of optional rules with a big hint in there that these and more advanced rules can be found in the BMR-R.
The miniatures yes they may add to the cost, but given that with to two paper books (rule book and quick start rule book) and color cardboard counters and a set of maps and two dice, we are asked to pay $35 for it, having a couple of miniatures in there would have been better then just the color map of the universe and given that plastice is a lot cheaper then the metal minis...it would be another good way to cross sell the other BT products.
And yes I would like to see a lower cost thus a single rule book, two playing maps, some dice and counters, along with two small plastic miniatures could all be done for less then what is being asked now.
And yes I am aware that $20 dollars in the mid to late 80s was a lot of money then...the point was that it can be done and still sell with what was in the box set then would sell just as well now for the same price.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/27/03 02:46 PM
66.84.240.243
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Nadin, is that you?
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Karagin
02/27/03 02:53 PM
65.129.165.209
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No, sorry not her...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/27/03 03:16 PM
66.84.240.243
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All I can say is once again, you've confused WK and FanPro.
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Karagin
02/27/03 03:20 PM
65.129.165.209
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No I am not, it's very clear on who OWNS BT...it's not FP...and given that WK's logo is on everything BT related and more so then the FP logo it's even clearier over who is footing the bill.
And if WK did care beyond the payment for the licensing from FP then we would see the ads for BT in MWDA stuff and in the new computer game for the XBOX and they would both be getting equal time.
But they are not. So nope I am not confusing anything here, it's clear that WK is milking BT for all that they can.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/27/03 03:38 PM
66.84.240.243
|
So, if a new player would come to you and say "I just played the video game and I want to play a Mad Cat!", you're going to tell them no? Astounding. Now who's riding herd? Stop thinking on how YOU learned to play and put yourself in the shoes of someone who just learned what BT is.
The Warhammer was the icon, but it's been gone for 10 years. Remember that whole Unseen thing? The fact that you said that though really points to your whole mindset. You've been angry since the 20 year update and the coming of the Clans haven't you? I mean this seriously, no slight. If you've said as much elsewhere, I'm sorry, but I missed it. While I don't really like the Clans either, level 2 IS is by far the most fun I've ever had with BT. Level 1 just grinds on me like a belt sander.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/27/03 03:39 PM
66.84.240.243
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I agree completely. What he said was to make the box set level 1 only. If FP would do that, they would end up burying most of them next to the Pac Man cartridges out in the desert.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/27/03 03:42 PM
66.84.240.243
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Yet you said a few posts ago, that WK was intentionally holding BT back.
Are they holding it back or milking it? You really can't do both.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/27/03 03:45 PM
66.84.240.243
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They won't touch this board with a T1 line. Nothing outside of the official site really.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/27/03 03:48 PM
65.129.165.209
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Actually what I would do is explain that the Mad Cat is level 2 tech and would then give him a Maraduer and explain how this mech is the fore runner of the Mad Cat in those words and further tell him that he can do just about the same thing with that mech as he could with the Mad Cat...thus we are still at level 1...and if anyone is riding the herd it's the idea from you that everything should be in the starter set, so if that's the case then why have the BMR-R at all...why not just toss that into the Box set and be done with it...
Actually NO I have not be angry since the 20 year update, in fact I really liked the 20 year update...it was done very open ended and allowed folks to catch up or pick up the game without a lot of extra effort. And no the Clans didn't upset me either...what up set me was the decline in writing skills, the lack of using the older material and the lack of caring showed by the staff at FASA and the childish and PC storyline that started to show up after Nystul (Bryan) took over, that is when I became angry with the path of the game...
I stated that WH and MD are the icon mechs is because they are among the most popular mechs in use in the game. Yes the Mad Cat is popular, but it's one of three popular mechs.
Level 2 is fun but for some it's too many rules and play bogs down. So the idea I am trying to get across here is for the starter set (ie the Box set) the rules should only be level 1 and maybe a page of optional rules with a big hint about the BMR-R and the more advanced rules in the that book...
Does that give you a better view on my postion and mind set on this?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 03:50 PM
65.129.165.209
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Then they are only hurting themselves and showing that they are doing no better at fan relations then FASA did...
But we both know that Warner lurks...so someone sees the postings...and given that word does travel, though slowly, it will get to the right person, hopefully sooner then later.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 03:55 PM
65.129.165.209
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Yes actually you can...you allow just enough product to be made to keep the BT fans buying and then you don't allow FP do mass market advertising thus word doesn't get out very much and folks like game store owners will not know that BT is alive and thus won't carry it.
So yes they can do both and they (WK) are doing that.
If they are not then where are the ads for BT? Where are the flyers promoting BT in the Mechassault game instead of the MWDA stuff? And why is a BT figure being given away with the Mechassault game instead of a MWDA figure? Where are the ads in KODT like we see for MWDA? Where are the ads in Gametrader for BT like we see for MWDA? Where are the ads in Wizard for BT like we see for MWDA?
It's clear enough that WK has limits placed on BT and is milking the game to support MWDA...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 03:58 PM
65.129.165.209
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No they wouldn't, again you are not listening to anything I said...the idea is to keep it simple enough to allow them to learn it, then with some well placed hints about Level 2 and level 3 items and how you can use them to add to the game, they should be curious enough to buy the BMR-R and other books, thus they get further into the game.
And this way the page count of the Box Set rule book would be way down and thus cheaper to make, thus the price goes down on the finial product...and the money saved could be used to place ads else where...that is if WK would let them...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/27/03 04:08 PM
66.84.240.243
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In reply to:
thus we are still at level 1...and if anyone is riding the herd it's the idea from you that everything should be in the starter set, so if that's the case then why have the BMR-R at all...why not just toss that into the Box set and be done with it...
Great idea! I agree completely. This his bad how?
What PC storyline? What about it was too 'PC'?
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Chunga
02/27/03 04:42 PM
66.84.240.243
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You were the second shooter on the grassy knoll weren't you? Did you listen to Art Bell a lot?
That accusation is just so far out there, I can't respond. You're right. Wizkids is out to personally screw you. And maybe Cadet. I am sure Jordan is in his office smoking a giant cigar, cackling at all of us right now.
I guess I choose to believe that there's a business reason why there is no advertising. Maybe the ad to profit ratio isn't enough to justify? I would say we would need some hard numbers on what an ad costs. You're hot on Starlog and Wizard. Get some numbers from them and let's debate how expensive an ad is. Otherwise, it's all just supposition.
Chunga
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masdog5
02/27/03 05:23 PM
205.213.146.15
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' I am sure Jordan is in his office smoking a giant cigar, cackling at all of us right now.'
Its not just a big cigar...but it is a huge cigar wrapped in 20 dollar bills...
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Karagin
02/27/03 05:41 PM
65.129.166.215
|
Again why do we the fans have to do the leg work for FanPro? They are the ones who wanted to publish Battletech shouldn' t they be the ones spreading the word about their product that they are making with the good graces of WK?
Or is it to much to except the facts that WK is only keeping BT alive to get money from it to support MWDA and once the storyline get's up to being of MWDA they will drop BT...
As for the second shooter on the grassy knoll...I think the ballistics reports of the rifle used in that incident speak for them selves...a weapon know to be unreliable and lacking in power and accuarcy but hey why point out the obvious and clearly well know facts about the murder weapon....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/27/03 05:50 PM
65.129.166.215
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Let's see poor writing, the idea that bad words aren't going to be around...come on son of a Laio over son of a bitch...please, then the change from grayish universe to one of good verus evil...do I need to go on? I think I have covered this before.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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TwoYearLurker
02/27/03 06:52 PM
4.17.223.29
|
Relax Cadet. I'm not trying to get your blood pressure up. And if I come across as that way, then I'm sorry.
I agree. Subjective is not a bad word. Taking a cue from George Carlin, there are no bad words. And I also agree with you wanting to voice your complaints (and I do appreciate that you're also willing to put forth suggestions on how to change things). Not that I agree with your reasons, but that's my voice.
Anyway, my question was answered. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is one of critical analysis of current and future releases, with a hope of returning to a style that was used until the early 90's?
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TwoYearLurker
02/27/03 07:03 PM
4.17.223.29
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Hey, it's all the same universe to me. Dark Ages is just another way to play the game. New authors for the novels are still new authors for the novels. As long as I can get my fix I'm happy.
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Cadet
02/27/03 07:15 PM
206.102.34.3
|
Therein lies the problem. You aren't willing to say "No, this isn't good enough". As long as people buy anything with BT on the cover, no matter how poor the product, then it will never get better.
Does not play well with others.
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Cadet
02/27/03 07:22 PM
206.102.34.3
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I'm critical and cynical. I won't debate it because it's true. I would like the game to go back to pre-Clan for the artwork (specifically with Loose and Dietrick), to go back to a shades of grey feel, and a tight cohearant storyline. I realize that the writers are TRYING to go back to that kind of a storyline, so far I'm not impressed.
Does not play well with others.
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masdog5
02/27/03 09:44 PM
205.213.146.15
|
'The miniatures yes they may add to the cost, but given that with to two paper books (rule book and quick start rule book) and color cardboard counters and a set of maps and two dice, we are asked to pay $35 for it, having a couple of miniatures in there would have been better then just the color map of the universe and given that plastice is a lot cheaper then the metal minis...it would be another good way to cross sell the other BT products. '
I'm not following your reasoning here. You want the product cheaper, but then you advocate the inclusion of an unnessecary piece of eye candy that would only raise the cost of the item.
'And yes I would like to see a lower cost thus a single rule book, two playing maps, some dice and counters, along with two small plastic miniatures could all be done for less then what is being asked now.'
I would like to know how you know this stuff could be done for less. I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask you to provide some numbers to back up your point.
'Tournment rules differ from level 2 rules since things can be exculded like C3 Systems or Artillery or Beagle Probes etc...'
Tournament rules are based on lvl 2 rules, yes or no?
Besides, you can choose to remove any piece of equiptment from a game you run, but just because you take that out doesnt mean that you arent playing with level 2 rules.
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Vapor
02/28/03 02:43 AM
202.128.69.122
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Let me say this...
If FanPro were to put out CBT posters (I know WizKids has several MW:DA posters available, and I haven't heard about anything from FanPro regarding CBT. If they already have the posters, please let me know), I would gladly pay my own money to get them, and then talk to the owner of the gaming store here and see about having them put up in the store. If they do any advertising, I will do my best to make sure that advertising is seen around here. They just need to do the advertising.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Karagin
02/28/03 08:42 AM
65.129.167.195
|
The miniatures would allow folks starting the game to see what is there for them to expand into if they want, just as hints dropped about the BMR-R and level 2 rules.
A 30 page rule book would roughly cost with no filler art about 3 dollars to make on an off hand guess, gloss cover would raise that to maybe 5 or 6 dollars...larger print runs lower the cost since more are getting made. The maps (hex ones) run maybe around 4 to 5 dollars, again more that are made the cheaper they will get, and the dices are really cheap...the counters will be the next most expensive part but still under 8 dollars. So even going on the high end no color map and mixing in a brief universe right up in the rule book and leaving out the minitatures we are close to $20 for a box set...and if you want to say the box it self cost a couple of bucks then we are $22-$25 total...please note that these are my take on things not hard concrete facts...you asked for an opinion I gave it.
Tournment rules are based off of level 2 but again they did take thing out. And as I have been told if you add in things you end up changing the level of play...so including the level 2 rules in the box isn't needed, they are in the BMR-R and if the new players wants to move on based on hints dropped again about how cool level 2 rules are via a single page of selected L2 rules which would be optional in the box set, then they would have the chance to do so thus increasing the sales of the BMR-R and thus the game is supported.
Does this help?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/28/03 08:42 AM
203.124.2.55
|
"You're being asked to back up what you're saying with actual workable solutions. "
I thought that was exactly what we're trying to do!
For me, the most important step is to inform the potential consumers that there exists a game called CBT, that is a great deal of fun. This can be done thru adverts, tied game products in the various mech computer games. There is some risk involved, but what business doesn't? In this case, the risks are worth it.
Then point the potential gamer to the CBT website. Maybe have a few photos of people playing CBT on the website as well. The gamer, thus informed by the people there, can then start to look for his local CBT group.
But when not even the very first step of informing the customer is being done right, how can we expect the potential players to even find the website, much less enter the game?
The Nice Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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Karagin
02/28/03 08:43 AM
65.129.167.195
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Glad to hear it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/28/03 08:47 AM
65.129.167.195
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Thing is they don't want our ideas...they have all they need from their super marketing group who seems to know more then the average fan and customer on how to market things...
Your points are vaild as are the requests and demands that FP do more advertisment in magazines other then Games Unplugged...but again as I have said before it's far easier to attack and belittle then to realize that maybe things need to change in order to keep BT alive and growing...but again what do us fans know about any of this...see we should just be happy that FP is even wasting their time by putting out BT because after all the alterative is having no game at all....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/28/03 10:27 AM
205.213.146.15
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'you asked for an opinion I gave it.'
No, I asked for facts, not an opinion.
You also left out licensing costs, which would push the price up another 5 or so dollars. Then you have to factor in the distribution costs and profit margin, so you are looking at a $35 dollar or more product.
' And as I have been told if you add in things you end up changing the level of play...so including the level 2 rules in the box isn't needed, they are in the BMR-R and if the new players wants to move on based on hints dropped again about how cool level 2 rules are via a single page of selected L2 rules which would be optional in the box set, then they would have the chance to do so thus increasing the sales of the BMR-R and thus the game is supported.'
That is a very lame reason for not including the level 2 rules.
BTW, this is Battletech, not DnD. Everything you need to play the game at the standard level (level 2) should be included in the box. Keeping out those rules for cost reasons is putting out a poor product, and keeping them out because its an introduction product and you want to keep it simple insults the intelligence of the new players of the game.
'And as I have been told if you add in things you end up changing the level of play'
If you add things, it becomes level 3. However, you can take equiptment out and still play a level 2 game. Have you ever heard of a 3040 campaign that allows some pieces of level 2 tech? Thats not a level 1 game.
The BMR-R covers more then just the level 2 rules. It covers things like battlevalue, battlemech and vehicle construction, infantry rules, and I think it includes something about using Aerotech in your game.
If I am not mistaken, isnt the only major difference between level 1 and level 2 the addition of high tech equiptment like c3 computers, NARC, Gauss Rifles, ER and Pulse weapons, and hte clans?
Its not that much more to take in, since it is only adding new equiptment, and hardly worth making the new players buy another book just to play this.
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masdog5
02/28/03 10:34 AM
205.213.146.15
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'Thank you for the ideas...as for taking something from the message boards as finial FP word well given you states it and how they try to come over as the main spokesperson for the company leaves little doubt of that since no one else from the company posts or does anything to counter it so that one person's actions end up speaking for the company... '
No, just because an employee for the company speaks on these boards doesnt mean he speaks for FanPro. They are two seperate entities.
Unless they say that it is an official release from FP, or Randall or another bigwig would come on here and make a god-like decree, its the person speaking for themselves. You have to be able to differentiate between the two.
As for the email, seriously try it. You might be surprised at the reaction you get.
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Karagin
02/28/03 10:34 AM
65.129.167.195
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Those are my ideas and such...you asked and you got them, and I don't see the price going beyond $30 bucks even with the extra stuff added in.
I am sorry that you don't agree with and think they are lame, but then again if you are happy paying for subpar stuff at higherr prices then do so, I have no plans on doing that and will keep speaking out about each and every chance I get.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/28/03 10:39 AM
65.129.167.195
|
Sadly this isn't true since FP has yet to distance it's self from the person's comments and such and so his actions speak for the company to mass majority of the fans.
And as for it being from a Big Wig...given that Randal has okay the staff to speak for him then I think that mutes the part you said of it NOT being an offical FP statement.
So the same set of problems remain.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/28/03 10:40 AM
205.213.146.15
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I asked for numbers, not for your opinion. Your opinion about what it costs means jack squat because its your opinion, not fact.
I dont see how you can see the price going beyond $30, because there is more then just producing the product that goes into the cost. There are other aspects of it, like the licensing fees and distribution costs.
As for the numbers you gave me, they do more to support the arguement that Bob, several others, and myself have made. You supported our case for why the price should be $35 based on what is in the boxed set.
Just because [personal attack censored by author].
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Karagin
02/28/03 10:40 AM
65.129.167.195
|
So much for a nice debate on this...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/28/03 10:42 AM
205.213.146.15
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Its not the same, and the sooner you realize that, the better.
People can speak for themselves without speaking for their company. I'm sorry you cant differentiate between the two.
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Karagin
02/28/03 10:43 AM
65.129.167.195
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If you say so.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/28/03 10:44 AM
66.84.240.243
|
I'm not saying we should do the leg work for FanPro. I'm saying for our debate, let's see if we can find some advertising rates.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/28/03 10:48 AM
65.129.167.195
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Starlog
There is Starlog's webpage...I am sure somewhere on it their rates for ads are listed...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Sherherazade
02/28/03 11:12 AM
62.172.147.221
|
>>NO WHERE ON THE BOX SET DOES IT SAY A UNIVERSE BOOK IS INCLUDED! <<
Actually, that isn't correct. The back of the Classic BattleTech boxed set does state "The Classic BattleTech Universe, a 48 page full-color book containing universe background and BattleMech data" which is a rather nice little book, complete with overviews of history and the factions - and some excellent Franz artwork (previewed on CBT I believe). It may be that this is missing from Karagin's box - mistakes do happen - but its inclusion is mentioned on the box and (IIRC, I don't have my copy to hand) in the front of the rule book.
* * * * * * * * * * *
Chris Hartford
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Karagin
02/28/03 01:19 PM
65.129.166.50
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It seems that some boxs don't say this...and if that is the case then we are back to a point raised before...lack of quailty control on the products...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Sherherazade
02/28/03 04:05 PM
172.182.237.138
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>>It seems that some boxs don't say this...and if that is the case then we are back to a point raised before...lack of quailty control on the products... <<
I personally have yet to see a Classic BattleTech box that doesn't have this text on the back, hence my desire to check the product code with you (top right on the front). Also, which picture does it have on the back, a Zeus being shot at by a JagerMech or a Dragon kicking the head off an Enforcer?
* * * * * * * * * * *
Chris Hartford
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Chunga
02/28/03 04:57 PM
66.84.240.243
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Games Unplugged
Here's a review of what's in the first BT issue of Games Unplugged. I know you want Starlog, but maybe this will help you. Ask your store owner to get one.
Chunga
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TwoYearLurker
02/28/03 05:46 PM
4.17.223.29
|
In reply to:
I'm critical and cynical.
I like the critical part. It means you care about the game. And you're also articulate enough to get your reasons and reasoning across. Something else important, espically if you want change.
In reply to:
I would like the game to go back to pre-Clan for the artwork
Please don't say that the artwork in 3025 is the be-all, end-all. The extra lines, for something that is supposed to be the BattleTech's version of the Janes books, sully the images. But as for the overall artwork since then, I'll agree that some of it seemed...toned down...until the introduction of the MechWarrior 3rd Edition book. After that point, there has been a return to the gritty look. It's not been a complete switch, more of inclusion. IMO.
In reply to:
to go back to a shades of grey feel
I don't think they every truly got away from this. Things were a bit more defined in right and wrong when it came to the Clans, espically the Smoke Jaguars. That being said, everybody pretty much has told the story from their perspective on the major issues (4SW, Update period, Clan Invasion, Capellan Civil War, FedCom Civil War, TFS and the Dog Ops).
In reply to:
and a tight cohearant storyline.
I'm not sure where you're coming from with this one.
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TwoYearLurker
02/28/03 06:18 PM
4.17.223.29
|
In reply to:
You aren't willing to say "No, this isn't good enough".
Actually, I am. However, as I have been happy with what I have seen so far, I have not reached that point.
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TwoYearLurker
02/28/03 06:21 PM
4.17.223.29
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In reply to:
given that Randal has okay the staff to speak for him
I must have missed that one. Where was it at?
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Karagin
03/01/03 07:49 PM
207.43.145.35
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Again a magazine that no one had heard of until now for most fo the BT community and given again as I pointed out before and other's have as well major distributiors DON'T CARRY...
So while it's nice to see BT in there, it don't mean squwat for adevertistment and it also shows that you don't want to take this seriously since you are again defaulting to a magazine that is NOT well know and thus limited in it's own distribution...
So again why is it so hard for FP to place ads in magazines like Starlog or Wizard or Inquest? None of your buddies NOR have you Chunga answered this all you do is keep repeating the same line of thinking that Games Unplugged is getting the word out to everyone and it's not but for some reason you can't or will not listen.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bloodrider
03/01/03 08:26 PM
152.163.189.136
|
All right Karagin, just how much does an ad in Wizard or Inquest cost? I'm betting that you don't have any hard info on it.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Karagin
03/01/03 08:38 PM
207.43.145.35
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As I posted with Starlog a simple check of their websites will give you that info...
Again why are the fans having to do FP's leg work? That has yet to be answered...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/01/03 08:40 PM
207.43.145.35
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Check out CBT...(www.classicbattletech.com) and ask Peter Smith about it...or ask Warner...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/01/03 08:42 PM
207.43.145.35
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Well some of us have and thus we are saying we have enough with the subpar and shody material and poor products etc...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bloodrider
03/01/03 08:57 PM
152.163.189.136
|
I tried Starlog and all I got was a damn store, didn't see any info on advertising in the mag at all.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Karagin
03/01/03 09:18 PM
207.43.145.35
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Try the links on the left hand side...and I am very sure if you email them they will tell you, just as they would tell anyone from FP asking them... 
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
03/01/03 09:41 PM
205.213.146.15
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'Try the links on the left hand side...'
Tried it, there was nothing. If you came across something while searching the site, please post the link here.
'and I am very sure if you email them they will tell you'
One of the first rules of debating is if you make a claim, you have to back it up. Otherwise your contentions will fall on deaf ears. Since you have previously said that it cant cost that much, its up to you to provide the ACTUAL cost of running an add in any of these magazines (and not how much you think it costs).
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masdog5
03/01/03 09:42 PM
205.213.146.15
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'Again why are the fans having to do FP's leg work? That has yet to be answered...'
Its not doing FP's leg work. I'm sure htey have all that info right at their fingertips.
How come every time someone asks you to provide some facts to back up your point, you say thats doing FP's leg work?
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Karagin
03/02/03 04:59 AM
207.43.145.34
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I say that because if I can go to a website and see that a company has a contact email or has their policys on said page then why can't FP do the same and ask the company what it would cost to place ads in their product?
Why is it that they haven't done so if they already as you say have the info? Why is it that we have only seen them do one set of ads in one non-widely published magazine?
And based on the lack of ads, it does seems as if the fans are doing the leg work for FP since we don't see them doing jack squat to advertise the game in any magazines that support the sci-fi industry or the even try to reach the mass gaming market by placing ads in gaming related magazines that do have wider distrobution and sales, like WIzard or Inquest.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/03 05:02 AM
207.43.145.34
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Again, I posted ideas, and again I don't see why if as you claim, and please back up your claim that FP has the info about ads in Starlog or anyother magazine beyond Games Unplugged, if they have this then they haven't used it if they are so egar to see the game sell and make money and grow...
I have posted my ideas, I have given suggestions and now you are telling me that because I haven't done all of the work for them and such that it's nothing because of that...how interesting...sorry but I see it more as failing on FP's part then on mine or anyone else who has offered ideas on how FP could improve.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
03/02/03 10:21 AM
205.213.146.15
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'Why is it that they haven't done so if they already as you say have the info? Why is it that we have only seen them do one set of ads in one non-widely published magazine?'
I beleive we've covered this somewhere else in the 200+ posts in this thread.
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masdog5
03/02/03 10:26 AM
205.213.146.15
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'Again, I posted ideas, '
Ideas are not facts. In a discussion/debate, you are required to present FACTS to back up your position.
'I have posted my ideas, I have given suggestions and now you are telling me that because I haven't done all of the work for them and such that it's nothing because of that...how interesting...sorry but I see it more as failing on FP's part then on mine or anyone else who has offered ideas on how FP could improve. '
This is almost as bad as you claiming that everyone was attacking you just because they disagreed with you.
First, you arent doing the work for them. They probably already have the work done, they just arent utilizing it. You are doing the work to build your case. Big difference.
'sorry but I see it more as failing on FP's part then on mine or anyone else who has offered ideas on how FP could improve.'
Do you always point fingers?
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Chas
03/02/03 11:51 AM
66.187.4.23
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"Again, why are the fans having to do FP's leg work?"
Karagin, he's not asking you to do FP's legwork.
He asked you if you know how much placing an ad in the aforementioned mags would cost.
Simple question with a simple answer.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
03/02/03 07:43 PM
207.43.145.52
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No sorry I don't see his question as that, I see it has him demanding that I give him the cost, and as I said again why should I do the leg work when it's clear that a simple email sent to any of the magazines I listed would get the answer and thus it would be very simple for FP to do this if they actually cared enough to worry about marketing the game beyond the limited estabalished fan base...
So I answered his question...I am sorry that you didn't like my answer...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/03 07:44 PM
207.43.145.52
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No we didn't cover it...we discussed it and the issue is still an important one...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
03/02/03 07:50 PM
207.43.145.52
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I have posted the facts, they are on the webpage or can be gotten via email to the company who runs Starlog or Wizard...that is simple and easy.
Building the case...it's already built...the points that they could and should be placing ads in as many magazines as possible is there in front of us.
And again I ask why is it the fans responability to give FP all the work done on a platter? WHY CAN'T or WHY WON'T THEY DO IT THEMSELVES?
No sorry the folks who attacked me are the same ones who are quick to slam and attack anyone who voices a disagreement with the current track BT is taking or voices their thoughts on how WK is screwing over BT for what ever reason. IT would be different if they actually did disagree, but seeing how it's not that then it's very clear that they are attacking...but if you don't agree with that then that is up to you.
As for finger pointing...maybe...but then again those who have spoken up about things they don't like or want to see changed are labeled by the same group as I was refering to above and by folks who do work or claim to work for FP as naysayers and troublemakers...so maybe the blame of finger needs to go to all...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
03/02/03 09:09 PM
205.213.146.15
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Why do you ask so many loaded questions?
'I have posted the facts, they are on the webpage or can be gotten via email to the company who runs Starlog or Wizard...that is simple and easy.'
I didnt see any prices for advertising on that website.
Besides, if you make a contention, you have to support it. You cant make a claim and then say here is the site, see what you can find.
'And again I ask why is it the fans responability to give FP all the work done on a platter? WHY CAN'T or WHY WON'T THEY DO IT THEMSELVES?'
Its not. I dont work for FP. I am asking YOU to prove your point. Nothing more, nothing less.
I dont see how you think anyone challenging your claims as making you do FP's work for them. Its simple courtesy to back up your claims if you make a point. I have had to do it a million times when I have debated, whether online or in person. Its not that big of a deal to ask a simple question to back up your point.
If I was in your position, made some claim, and you challenged it, I would have no problem sending an email to FP or a magazine or something just to back up my point.
However, I didnt make the point. You did. Like our legal system, the burden of proof is on the one who makes the point, so its up to you to prove your claims to everyone who is discussing this with you.
How do you know that FP hasnt done their homework? Just because you dont see an ad in a magazine doesnt mean they havent priced it out. In fact, I'm sure they did price it out, just so they could determine if they had room in their budget for it.
'Building the case...it's already built...the points that they could and should be placing ads in as many magazines as possible is there in front of us.'
You have yet to present any facts to back your claims up, like how much it would cost to advertise in Starlog or Wizard and how much it costs to produce the CBT Boxed set.
'No sorry the folks who attacked me are the same ones who are quick to slam and attack anyone who voices a disagreement with the current track BT is taking or voices their thoughts on how WK is screwing over BT for what ever reason. IT would be different if they actually did disagree, but seeing how it's not that then it's very clear that they are attacking...but if you don't agree with that then that is up to you.'
Have you ever thought that they may come off that way because you come off as being very confrontational and very hard headed? Being flexible is a good thing, dont try taking the hardline position. People are more likely to listen and be civil with you if you are reasonable.
'As for finger pointing...maybe...but then again those who have spoken up about things they don't like or want to see changed are labeled by the same group as I was refering to above and by folks who do work or claim to work for FP as naysayers and troublemakers...so maybe the blame of finger needs to go to all... '
Because those people dont ask questions about what is possible or why something was done, they just say its wrong and offer solutions that arent viable.
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Chas
03/02/03 09:53 PM
66.187.4.115
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"I don't see his question as that."
Uh Karagin? Nobody CARES how you "see" his question. His question was "do you know how much it costs to put an add in a mag like Wizard.
Now you have three options on what you can do.
1: Squirm around, continue avoid the question.
2: Answer that NO, you DON'T know how much it costs to put an ad in a mag like Wizard.
3: Answer that YES, you DO know how much it costs to put an ad in a mag like Wizard, and give us the cost.
"and as I said again why should I do the leg work "
Nobody wants you doing legwork for them. We merely want you to show that you actually know what you're talking about instead of blowing hot air at us.
And who's to sayw e HAVEN'T e-mailed Wizard, or another mag to get pricing, and are simply waiting for YOU to verify the data?
All you're doing is crying about something. But when someone asks you a direct question, you pick up and try to move on to another point to gripe about. Finish what you started.
"So I answered his question."
No. You told him "go somewhere else and look it up". That's not an answer. That's an EVASION.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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TJHairball
03/02/03 09:55 PM
152.10.182.229
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Did some quick looking up online. I didn't find rates for Starlog, but most of the mid-smaller magazines I found rates for ask about $1000 for a full page color ad (circulation ~100,000-200,000 issues); larger magazines, like Discover, Forbes, Cosmopolitan, etc, ask for $40-50K for a full page color ad; Time magazine (US) charges $200K on the upper end for a full page color ad (circulation ~4M). Smaller ads cost substantially less in every case... web advertising is, as I'm sure most of you know, rated typically on a per click basis and is a very small sum...
So... to place a few half page color ads in some gaming magazines would (by a very rough estimate) cost several thousand dollars; for feasibility, therefore (by some very rough and largely generous to FP estimates), a thousand extra 5th ed boxed sets sold b/c of those ads would tip it into the well-worth-the-investment category.
Now, I can't say whether or not I know for certain a few ads in gamer/SF mags would increase sales by at least a thousand items for FP overall or not, being not an advertising expert, but I daresay it seems vaguely likely to me.
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TJHairball
03/02/03 10:05 PM
152.10.182.229
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My guess is that FP and WK have marked CBT as a "dying" game that isn't gaining new players anymore; advertising doesn't do much to retain or chase away old fans who still doggedly buy many of the new releases.
Quite simply, the situation is somewhat similar to AD&D 2nd edition under TSR, TSR going under, and WotC buying the rights and putting out a rather different DnD 3rd Edition (which has little resemblance to the Gary Gygax original.)
Similarly, the new system is touted as "simpler" but an older core of abandoned players remain, standing by their more realistic/grittier/more fun version. I expect that - barring a groundswell of some sort - CBT will eventually be left to twist in the wind once us diehards stop buying.
Just my two cents...
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masdog5
03/02/03 10:08 PM
205.213.146.15
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Thank you for looking that information up. Just going by the costs, I doubt that it would be currently feasible to publish more than an ad or two. Maybe if that is coupled with alot of word of mouth(the best form of advertising according to a marketting major I know) and alot of Commando events, it might increase sales enough to make advertising more profitable.
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Chunga
03/02/03 11:28 PM
24.211.11.205
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The Starlog site that Karagin gave me has no advertising info on it. It's a link to the Starlog store where you can buy old issues. I did email them for advertising info though. I have not gotten a reply.
Chunga
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realworldviews
03/03/03 12:42 AM
24.98.62.128
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I don't really know how licening fees are done but if they are anything like franchise fee for businesses, it is usually a percentage between 4%-9% of all profits/sales.
So if it is that way, or if its done any other way, WK would make more money if FP and CBT made more money.
Unless of course, FP just pays a flat fee to WK which is highly unlikely.
But why would WK care, they make enough money off MWDA.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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TJHairball
03/03/03 01:37 AM
152.10.182.229
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Well, they would care because - theoretically at least, and I'd agree with them in their position - it competes with their product.
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TwoYearLurker
03/03/03 05:18 PM
4.17.223.29
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I PM'ed Peter Smith, he said that it was simply for the rules of the game.
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TwoYearLurker
03/03/03 05:25 PM
4.17.223.29
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In reply to:
And again I ask why is it the fans responability to give FP all the work done on a platter? WHY CAN'T or WHY WON'T THEY DO IT THEMSELVES?
I don't know about anybody else, but to me, this sounds like you think everybody on this message board is a FanPro person. Are you really that paranoid?
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TwoYearLurker
03/03/03 05:29 PM
4.17.223.29
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Don't underestimate the power of word-of-mouth. Half of the people at the tech college I attend (total enrollment is about 10k students) listed word-of-mouth as their primary point of introduction.
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Bob_Richter
03/04/03 02:11 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Quite simply, the situation is somewhat similar to AD&D 2nd edition under TSR, TSR going under, and WotC buying the rights and putting out a rather different DnD 3rd Edition (which has little resemblance to the Gary Gygax original.)<<<
DnD 3rd Edition is really the same game designed by professionals. It's mechanically very similar, but it's more flexible and less confusing.
It's a new edition of an old product.
MWDA is a horse of a different color, clearly. It's reallty a game designed for an entirely different audience, those that want a fast-playing tacitcal miniatures game, like MageKnight, but with 'Mechs.
Battletech is still what it is.
I've played both games, and like both. Just like I liked the CCG (which was allowed to die, burn their eyes!)
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/04/03 02:58 PM
152.10.182.229
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"DnD 3rd Edition is really the same game designed by professionals. It's mechanically very similar, but it's more flexible and less confusing."
Actually, no. It's a quite different game from AD&D 2nd edition... I'm familiar with both. The similarities largely revolve around things having the same name as they used to...
I've never tried MWDA; I've simply heard from those who have that it is indeed simpler. I probably SHOULD try it; I might even like it.
I liked the card game too... :]
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Bob_Richter
03/04/03 06:57 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Actually, no. It's a quite different game from AD&D 2nd edition... I'm familiar with both. <<<
Not familiar enough, I'd say, if you still hold that opinion.
There's not half as much difference between DnD 2ed and DnD 3ed as there is between the same edition-numbers of Mechwarrior.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/04/03 09:23 PM
152.10.182.229
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Not being as familiar with MW 3rd edition, I had to go double check... and I must say the differences are no less dramatic changing from 2nd edition to 3rd edition for AD&D-DnD than the Mechwarrior RPG. If you doubt my expertise in the matters, feel free to ignore the well over a thousand hours experience I've logged in as a Dungeon Master in the chair (not to mention time spent as a player, or doing background work [assembling NPCs, writing up adventures and locations, etc]).
The two biggest difference in ingame mechanics between MW2 and MW3 are the substitution of d10 for d6 rolls and the reduction of two types of experience/advancement points into one. The Life Path character creation system is dramatically different, but has no further effect on game play after character creation.
On the other hand... TSR/WotC have substantially disparate ways of handling advancement, career paths, stat modification, sudden death, etc. They both are level/hit point based systems, and share vocabulary in common, but aside from the more similar character creation systems, they share no more in common than MW2 and 3; I'm tempted to say less, but there could be a few subtle differences I've missed in my relative lack of experience with the Mechwarrior RPG (particularly 3rd edition... 2nd edition is fairly familiar to me).
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Bob_Richter
03/05/03 03:02 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>The two biggest difference in ingame mechanics between MW2 and MW3 are the substitution of d10 for d6 rolls and the reduction of two types of experience/advancement points into one.<<<
Totally ignoring the all-new combat system, of course, and just about everything ELSE.
MW3 is a totally different game, and appears to be trying to get as far away from MW2 as possible. It has almost literally NOTHING in common.
DnD 3rd Edtion was designed specifically to maintain parallells to earlier versions of the game while still making it a more modern game. Thus the new skills system, the more flexible multiclass structure, and flipping THAC0 (now renamed, because it was a stupid name) and AC (which, apparently, was not) on their heads to make them more intuitive.
They have a lot more in common then you think, and 3ed DnD is no more radical of a departure than 2ed DnD was. Far less than MW3 is.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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realworldviews
03/05/03 10:38 PM
24.98.62.128
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and flipping THAC0 (now renamed, because it was a stupid name)
And what made it a stupid name?
It's an acronym, THAC0, To Hit Armor Class 0 (Zero).
It always made sense to me.
It's was something that was unique to DnD. It was around from the beginning.
Personally I see DnD3e as being a totally new system using some of the name for things from the rest of the DnD games.
There is enough of a rules change that converting anything ADnD2ed, is just a waste of time. You might as well just start over. But that's just my opinion.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
03/06/03 12:41 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>It's was something that was unique to DnD. It was around from the beginning.<<<
It was something that every one of its sucessors abandoned.
Because it was stupid.
In the old system, to calculate a hit, you took your THAC0, subtracted the other guy's AC, and tried to roll over it.
This is counterintuitive, because high numbers are bad.
Attack Bonuses and a right-side-up AC make a lot more sense to your typical non DnDer.
But the hit mechanic is still the same.
>>>Personally I see DnD3e as being a totally new system using some of the name for things from the rest of the DnD games.<<<
Then you've pulled the wool over your own eyes. It has so much in common with the previous editions that it's stupid.
>>>There is enough of a rules change that converting anything ADnD2ed, is just a waste of time.<<<
Not at all. It's painfully easy.
Most things don't even need converting, except subtracting a couple of numbers from 20, and re-figuring a few other stats.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/06/03 02:00 PM
152.10.182.229
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I can see you are deadset in ignoring the large differences in the systems... feats, psionics, level advancement, classing/career pathing systems, "Challenge ratings", stat modification characteristics, skill system management vs proficiency/ability system, reach system, attacks of opportunity, special combat options, etc. Having DMed both editions, I'm quite familiar with the vast difference...
Everybody I know who's ever tried converting a AD&D 2nd Edition character into a 3rd edition char gave up on that character pretty quick and just started over. Seriously, it worked better for them that way; the basic character concepts are different between the two editions.
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Bob_Richter
03/07/03 11:27 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I can see you are deadset in ignoring the large differences in the systems... <<<
Nope.
I admit the differences are fairly large.
But they hardly reach the critical mass of making them totally different games, and they don't even begin to approach the vast gulf between second and third edition Mechwarrior.
Converting characters between the two editions is EASY....just use the character creation system.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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realworldviews
03/07/03 09:55 PM
24.98.62.128
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Converting characters between the two editions is EASY....just use the character creation system.
If your going to do that, as I said, You might as well start over from scratch. Instead of being able to just simply convert your old character you have to build a new one. Personally I don't think that is a very good converting system.
As to MW2ed & MW3ed I can't say anything about it, because I have never really played either of them, but I did try to make characters from all 3 editions (MW1, MW2, MW3), and I agree in at least the character creation MW1 and MW2 weren't all that different, but between MW2 and MW3 there seemed to be a major difference.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
03/08/03 01:19 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>but between MW2 and MW3 there seemed to be a major difference.<<<
You are a champion of understatement.
The two systems have absolutely nothing in common.
Just due to the class/level paradigm, converting characters between DnD editions is easy. And they still have more in common that any two other "completely different games" I've ever seen. So much that it's stupid.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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TJHairball
03/08/03 09:03 PM
66.26.67.151
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I see you haven't listened to a thing I've said...
Yes, Dnd and AD&D are both "level/class" systems. There are plenty of those kicking around. "No difference" you say... but MW2 and MW3 are both "skill-att improvment by points" systems in the exact same way. General system TYPE matching doesn't mean system compatibility, character compatbility, or even overall similarity.
As to MW2 and 3 having NOTHING in common... au contraire. They both use essentiall the same skill check and save system, with d10s subbed for d6s. Remarkably similar improvement system, where you spend points to improve skills or attributes. I could even point out the equipment lists are remarkably similar... but I won't go any further. The fact of the matter is, it IS a different system between the two. Not completely, but enough to throw you off. I don't know how tough it may be to convert chars between MW2 and MW3... they may share the degree of incompatibility that Dnd and AD&D do in that regard, haven't checked my books lately.
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Bob_Richter
03/09/03 03:50 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I see you haven't listened to a thing I've said...<<<
Nor have you to a thing I've said.
*sigh*
>>>General system TYPE matching doesn't mean system compatibility, character compatbility, or even overall similarity.<<<
I didn't say it did.
>>>They both use essentiall the same skill check and save system, with d10s subbed for d6s. <<<
You have no idea what you're talking about, I see.
>>>Remarkably similar improvement system, where you spend points to improve skills or attributes.<<<
Similar in only the vague sort of way that points are spent to improve skills or attributes. This manages only to differentiate it from Level-based systems, and not many of them.
>>>I could even point out the equipment lists are remarkably similar... <<<
The C-Bill values and item titles are the same, but that happens when you build two systems for the same universe.
>>>The fact of the matter is, it IS a different system between the two. Not completely, but enough to throw you off.<<<
I admit it was a fairly severe edition change. Rather like what happened to Shadowrun between Second and Third Edition, but it wasn't as if it had just become Rifts or Star Wars or something. The essentials of the system are all still there, with myriad improvements tucked in around them (new skills system, for example, and new recommendations for XP awards.)
To convert a character from AD&D2ed to DnD3ed, just take their classes, levels, and attributes, and substitute the equivalent classes, levels, and attributes from the new system. The hardest things you will encounter will be
1) No equivalent class (theives are rogues now, and Rangers are something else entirely)
2) The new skill system.
Have you seen the MW2 to MW3 conversion document? It requires a number of arcane formulae and GM judgement. I've come up with simpler ways to convert back and forth to 2ed DnD from 2ed Mechwarrior than that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Vapor
03/10/03 03:53 AM
202.128.73.130
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Has anyone thought of getting in touch with WizKids and FanPro and finding out if they have an official statement on this topic? All I have seen is opinion and guesswork. I'm sure if someone were to ask WizKids and/or FanPro they would be able to clear this whole discussion up, and this topic could get buried somewhere like it should have been long ago.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Cadet
03/10/03 09:37 PM
206.102.32.81
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Sorry. I just figured since this is something that effects the game and community as a whole I could post it here. I didn't post it at the main site because it is unflatering and would have been closed immediately as such. And there is the fact I'm banned atcbt.com forever. And it isn't like Randel returns my emails...but as a NAYSAYER! and FEAR-MONGER! I'm used to that.
But you know...some of the big people (and wannabe big people) do lurk and post here, and yet haven't managed a response. I think that speaks volumes in itself.
Does not play well with others.
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Vapor
03/10/03 10:52 PM
202.128.73.193
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I wasn't blaming you for posting the question, Cadet. God knows, I've thrown my own 10 or 12 cents into this discussion. I was just commenting that the discussion has gone on for an incredibly long time with people going back and forth on the same topic over and over and over, ad nauseum. It's about time someone did a little research and got an official statement.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Gangrene
03/10/03 11:56 PM
68.113.44.60
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You're banned at CBT! What happened?
I have also been called a fear-monger/hate-monger/nay-sayer by some of the admin there. I haven't been banned yet, though.
Gangrene
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Cadet
03/11/03 12:01 AM
206.102.32.81
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Well I had my happy little profile that said I knew Warner Camille and Nadin (we go way back). Camille didn't like it and asked me to change it. I ignored her. She asked again and I told her I gave her request all the due consideration it deserved [READ: None]. She squealed like the porcine animal she is and it got changed by an admin. I said some coward did it and could even have the common courtasy to tell me. They didn't like that.
Or maybe it was when someone asked me about certain people and I said I wished they were dead. Didn't think hatred was against the rules.
Ahhh...good times.
I'm not banned at Mordel. I just don't post there, although I do lurk from time to time.
Does not play well with others.
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Bob_Richter
03/11/03 04:08 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>> I think that speaks volumes in itself. <<<
Yup.
Points up the fact that you are, as you said, a Naysayer and a Fear-Monger.
If you really want, I can try to find the REAL answer to this question for you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Cadet
03/11/03 05:50 PM
206.102.32.131
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So their not responding after seeing the question posed is proof that I am a FEAR-MONGER! and NAYSAYER!?
I don't quite make the connection.
Does not play well with others.
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PeterSmith
03/11/03 08:37 PM
4.17.223.29
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You happened to leave out the part about you having a picture of a naked man as your profile picture. That's what got you in the most trouble. That's what got you banned.
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Cadet
03/11/03 08:59 PM
206.102.33.163
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Good times indeed. I'm giggling just thinking about that man in the kiddie pool.
To be fair though, his gut hung down enough to cover his unit.
So if I publically apologize, can I be unbanned? I mean a year in the penalty box should be enough
Does not play well with others.
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PeterSmith
03/11/03 09:49 PM
4.17.223.29
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I pulled the name ban, but I think there's also an IP ban. Do me a favor and e-mail me your IP if you can't get onto the board. marauder@classicbattletech.com
Peter Smith
Power corrupts. Absolute power is kinda neat.
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Vapor
03/11/03 10:17 PM
202.123.138.215
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Bob, just out of curiosity, is it possible for you to make a comment without it involving a personal swipe at someone?
You only quoted the last part of Cadet's statement. He freely admitted that he has been called a "Naysayer" and "Fear-Monger", but what you quoted him as saying had nothing to do with those. You seem to have a penchant for twisting people's words around sometimes (not all the time, but every now and then).
He was referring to the fact that people who could provide definitive answers to the question raised by this post are known to look at these forums, and the lack of any kind of response from them is strangely absent. They could have cleared up this question a long time ago, but they didn't.
Feel free to see if you can get a REAL answer if you want to. Just make sure it is unedited if you post it in here.
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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TJHairball
03/12/03 04:11 PM
66.26.67.151
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Speaking as someone who has overseen attempted conversions between AD&D and DnD... it isn't as simple as that, and most cases have to involve "GM discretion" - much as you mentioned for the MW2 to MW3 systems. The fact is... the races don't fuinction the same, the classes don't function the same, and the feats/skills/stat improvement thing is radically different from the proficiency/class ability system of AD&D; the levels balance differently - most particularly due to the varying XP tables of AD&D and flat XP tables of DnD, which required radically different balancing acts between classes. Not one of the gamers I've gamed with has managed to bring a character from AD&D to DnD (despite several abortive attempts they gave up on and cahracters they were firmly attached to); I haven't heard of a single successful campagin conversion between the two.
Actually, I'm surprised that you mentioned Shadowrun... the differences between MW2 and 3 can in large part be derived from SR2 (I'm unfamiliar with SR3) rules and knowledge of both should make adaptation between the two systems markedly easier.
Enough said... this is a bit far of a digression off topic. I'm sure you're still not convinced of the differences between AD&D and Dnd.
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