Karagin
02/18/03 10:09 AM
65.129.164.63
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Okay I picked this up and NO I did not pay the outrageous price that is being asked for it. I paid $20 for it.
First off the price increase is crazy, this is suppose to be the starting point for new players, but yet at $34.99 that is alone is going turn most folks away and given that it's aimed at the SAME AGE GROUP as MWDA, the parents, who are the ones buying these games for the under 16 crowd, will not be looking to drop $35 dollars on a board/miniatures game.
This increase in price is going to really hurt the sales of the box set. There are NO Unseen in there...can't wait to see the ones who do start through the Box Set wonder why they don't have the PP mechs...
Given that this is a late product, where is the super fancy art that Randal talked about in one of his Battlechats as one of the reasons the box set was dealyed? I didn't see it.
The maps to play on look nice, and the counters are good, now I could understand the $34.99 price if they box had plastic mechs in it, but not for cardboard mechs.
The quickplay rules are nice, and do allow for faster learning of the game, this gives the incoming players more chances to get the feel of the game.
The new IS map is nice, but it's NOT worth it to buy the box set just to get the map and no I didn't buy it for the map, I decided to buy it so as I could use it to teach others to play.
Over all the box set isn't bad, the price is too high though for what you get and it should have been down around what the other BT Box Sets where $15-25 dollars with average for the starting box set being $20. It shold not be an almost 50% increase in price since that will push folks over to other less expensive games.
So on a scale A-F, I give this one a C.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/18/03 10:12 AM
4.35.174.250
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...that at $35, (Classic) Battletech takes less money to start in than MWDA or DnD, just to name a couple of examples.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:15 AM
65.129.164.63
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It is still WAY to much for the starting game for anything. I am sorry but not everyone has rich parents who are going to blindly drop $35 bucks on something.
So that will hurt the sales and I have spoken with several shop owners, who carry BT and they don't like the price increase and have had folks complain about it.
So please drop the idea that it's cheaper for BT to run since if it was we would see a lot more product then we do.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/18/03 10:20 AM
205.213.145.225
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I agree that it will hurt sales, but it is simple economics. In order to remain a viable company, FanPro has to charge that much with the boxed set because the revenue from that product will lead to more of the things you want, like ads and to pay the licensing fees to WizKids so they can continue to make the product.
It does suck that they raised the price on it. I wish they wouldnt have made it that expensive. But if they dont, then CBT will die a horrible death.
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:26 AM
65.129.164.63
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Lack of sales will hurt the game just as much do to high prices...and given that this is the starter set for BT the high price will push folks away.
They could have still charged the same as the past Box Sets and had it out on time and then done ads IF they would budget and plan better and take the time to explore the idea of placing ads. Ads don't cost that much and if they are banking on the idea that by increasing the price of the Box Set will give them money I think they shot them selves in the foot with that idea.
Given that the person I bought the game through isn't charging the full price mainly to move the product and to allow for the parnets to buy something for a decent price, shows that it's not just a fan that is upset but also a store owner.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/18/03 10:35 AM
205.213.145.225
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Regardless of the fact of who is upset with the price (like i said, I'm not happy with it..), you have to look at the business considerations for them making the decision to sell at that price.
Yeah, having a good budget would have helped them put out products and advertise. But we dont know what resources FP started off with, how much they paid WK to take over the CBT lineup, and what htey have to pay in royalties and licensing fees yearly. That could be a pretty hefty sum that makes it hard for them to publish the products and advertise.
Until we know what Fanpro is working with, we really shouldnt be commenting on whether or not they can advertise.
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:42 AM
65.129.164.63
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Right I forgot all they want to hear is how wonderful of a job they are doing and how they are not doing anything wrong...I think we have been down this road once before...yes...it's called the FASA days and we all know where that ended...
If we the fans DON'T speak up and express our dislikes over high prices and lack of ads and other things then NOTHING will change and the game will go away.
What's better, a lower priced game that actually sells or a high priced one that doesn't? That is the key issue...are folks willing to shovel out $35 for a starter for BT when the same can get them more in MWDA or other similar games?
High prices drive folks away, thus they don't buy the product thus FP makes NO money thus they end up droping BT since it's not profitible...
And that leads to the need for the fans to speak up on the BT boards and in emails to FP pointing this out so they can see and understand it.
Saying that we shouldn't comment is wrong and leads to a repeat of the disaster FASA had.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/18/03 10:50 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>It is still WAY to much for the starting game for anything.<<<
Well, I disagree, actually. It's more than I paid, but that was over a decade ago. It's not more than I would pay now.
>>>I am sorry but not everyone has rich parents who are going to blindly drop $35 bucks on something.<<<
($ and bucks are redundant.)
It doesn't take rich parents to have $35 to spend on something. Geez. Get a fricking paper route.
No, the cost increase is probably a bad idea. It's probably also unwarranted.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:54 AM
65.129.164.63
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IF the BT box sets had been $35 back in the 80s I know at least 3 dozen folks who would have NEVER gotten into the game at all and some of them did have jobs or ways of making their own money, but even a paper route doesn't pay enough to drop $35 dollars on a single game and given that this isn't a computer game the choices for the lower end of the age group will find something else to go with and given also that their parents are the ones who have finial say on the way the money is spent the high price will more then likely push them to suggest another item or items for them to spend the $35 on.
It's not probaly a bad idea, it's DEFIEANTLY a bad idea.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/18/03 11:05 AM
4.35.174.250
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>>>IF the BT box sets had been $35 back in the 80s<<<
That's not what we're talking about.
This isn't the 80s or even the 90s.
This is the 21st Century, and America has just gone through a decade of unparalleled economic growth.
In short, while kids were poor in the 80s, and even in the 90s, today they can afford that $35 box set.
Hell, Monopoly costs that much these days.
MWDA takes hundreds of dollars to assemble an army suitable for tournament play. DnD costs $90 plus to get a competent collection of basic rules. I have a hard time thinking of a game you can get for under $30, aside of five-plus-year-old computer games, or vastly outdated RPG manuals.
I'll have to look next time I'm in my FLGS.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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masdog5
02/18/03 11:33 AM
205.213.145.225
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From what I have been able to find after an hour and a half of dedicated searching thru some databases is that WizKids is a limited liability corporation chartered out of delaware. Unfortunately, none of the tax information is available, and since it isnt a publically traded company, there are no reports to look up.
The same goes for Fanpro, although I would need to learn german to be absolutely sure.
I hate to say this, but after reading the FanPro site's press releases, it seems like they are just charged with developing supplementary products that go along with Wizkids MWDA.
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Karagin
02/18/03 01:01 PM
207.43.145.16
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In reply to:
masdog5 wrote:
I hate to say this, but after reading the FanPro site's press releases, it seems like they are just charged with developing supplementary products that go along with Wizkids MWDA.
I think this has been pointed out before...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/18/03 01:05 PM
207.43.145.16
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Really? I wish I knew kids that can afford out their own pockets, not mommy's or daddy's, a $35 game...I really do wish I knew them.
Sorry Bob but the average kid doesn't have that kind of cash and given that the game is marketed to ages 12 and up, which by the way is on the box, it is compteting with MWDA as well as things like CDs, computer games, the latest TCG and other things the kids from ages 12 and up want.
Hell the original price of the current box set is an evening out for my girlfriend and myself for dinner, so it's not something folks can just drop at a whime. And if you believe other wise then I guess you live in a perfect world.
As for the economy....funny thing is they are claiming we haven't had any growth in years...but then again I guess that is based on which side of the poltical arena you pick to believe.
Bottom line is they are over charging for this game and it's going to hurt the sales.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/18/03 06:14 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>I wish I knew kids that can afford out their own pockets, not mommy's or daddy's, a $35 game...I really do wish I knew them<<<
You mean you *don't*?
When I was 10, I bought myself a $200 dollar freaking computer. And that was in the early nineties.
Okay, so most kids these days don't get paper-routes and earn their own money. They have allowances. I'd be willing to bet your typical middle-class child gets enough money to go in with a couple of his buddies and get a Battletech box set. (That's less than $10 in a given allowance period)
>>>Sorry Bob but the average kid doesn't have that kind of cash <<<
Bullshit. And never forget that I've been a kid more recently than you. I'm the expert here. Kids spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on Magic cards, for crying out loud, and you're telling me they can't afford a $35 product?
>>>Hell the original price of the current box set is an evening out for my girlfriend and myself for dinner,<<<
Damn, you eat cheap. That woman must not have any self-respect. 
>>>And if you believe other wise then I guess you live in a perfect world.<<<
No, I live in a world where $35 just ain't all that much. It isn't.
>>>As for the economy....funny thing is they are claiming we haven't had any growth in years...but then again I guess that is based on which side of the poltical arena you pick to believe.<<<
The numbers are pretty solid, and the economy's much larger now than it was in the eighties. Either that means we've had inflation (in which case, $35 is worth less) or the productive power of the economy's grown (in which case everyone has more money.)
>>>Bottom line is they are over charging for this game and it's going to hurt the sales. <<<
I don't know if they're over-charging or not, and I can't imagine how you claim to. How much does it cost FanPro to make one of those, since you seem to know?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/18/03 10:20 PM
65.129.164.179
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Sure Bob, if you say so...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Ketjak
02/19/03 12:39 AM
198.79.105.2
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> Sure Bob, if you say so...
No, really Karagin - that's a cheap date; $35 for two people? C'mon, man, at least spring for the Biggie Size.
- Ketjak
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Ketjak
02/19/03 01:05 AM
198.79.105.2
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Karagin,
If kids these days don't have $35 for CBT-in-a-box, how do you explain the $40 price point of a GameBoy Advanced game? How about the popularity of PlayStation and PS2 games, which average about $35 and $50 new respectively?
They can't all be stealing them.
For that matter, and closer to home, how do you explain the sales of the role-playing game supplements like:
D&D 3E Player's Handbook ($30)
D&D 3E Dungeon Master's Guide ($30)
D&D 3E Monster Manual ($30)
D&D 3E Psionic Handbook ($30)
D&D 3E Forgotten Realms Sourcebook ($40)
and others I'm too lazy to type about. Are the kids stealing those?
- Ketjak
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masdog5
02/19/03 02:22 AM
205.213.145.138
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Your arguement is flawed in the first place. You say that no 12 year old could go out and afford it out of their own pocket because it is $35 instead of $20. Well, even if it was $20, they would still most likely be buying it out of mom and dad's pocket.
As for money, most kids I grew up with got an allowance, and many of them, including myself, still get the occassional check from the 'rents while in school.
Even if they do have an allowance, its not like its hard to find seasonal jobs. Lawns need to be mowed, leaves raked, snow shoveled, and kids babysat. Its not like back in the day when kids got pennies for their hard work, when I babysat 10 years ago for my neighbor, a bad night was bringing in 20 bucks.
As for your dating situation....35 can be alot, depending on where you live. When my girlfriend and i arent fighting(kinda like we are now...but that is another story for another board), our dates usually averaged around $35-40. Dinner is usually around $20-30, including tip (there arent many places to eat in Fond du Lac that are decent), and the movies are $15.
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Ketjak
02/19/03 02:44 AM
198.79.105.2
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One more thing, Kara. I did some checking in my collection and compared it against what I know about the new version.
In 1996, the BT4E was published for $25. It contained 48 full color card board counters, 32 page, full-color universe book (only included 4 half-page color shots along with the 24 Mechs), 48 page rulebook, dice, stands and a small sticker sheet.
Seven years later the CBT box set contains 48 full-color cardboard counters, a 48 page full-color universe book (contains 8 full-page color pieces and 4 half-page pieces, along with the 24 Mechs), a 64 page rulebook, a full-color 16 page quick-start rules pamphlet, a full-color poster-sized map of the IS, stands and dice.
How did they manage ONLY to charge $35, given color vs. black & white printing costs and the meteoric cost increases of paper in the past 7 years?
- Ketjak
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realworldviews
02/19/03 03:26 PM
24.98.62.128
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Whare are you people going that you need to spend more than $30-$40 on a night out.
Me and my GF will go out to dinner and a movie for maybe $40 at most. Unless you are going to eat at some expensive resturant, and most of those that I have been to aren't much better than an Applebee's or Chili's, you shouldn't need to have to drop more than 20-30 bucks for dinner.
Now if your out with a girl for the first time and trying to impress her then maybe I can understand spending more money.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
02/19/03 04:22 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Whare are you people going that you need to spend more than $30-$40 on a night out.<<<
Anywhere fancier than Pizza Hut.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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LordChaos
02/19/03 10:58 PM
67.41.67.32
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"Whare are you people going that you need to spend more than $30-$40 on a night out."
You probly don't want me to mention how much I have spent on dinner allone for me and my GF (it has teatered around the tripple digits more then once).
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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realworldviews
02/20/03 01:14 AM
24.98.62.128
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You probly don't want me to mention how much I have spent on dinner allone for me and my GF (it has teatered around the tripple digits more then once).
Thats all well and good every once in a while, but I would bet that you don't spend that much in one night more than every once in a while. I will spend that much on a special occasion but not all the time.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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realworldviews
02/20/03 01:18 AM
24.98.62.128
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Anywhere fancier than Pizza Hut.
Well if that the case, Thank God My GF doesn't like those expensive resturants. She perfectly happy with Applebee's. At which we generally spend about $25 with tip.
And heck why do I know of many nice places to eat that aren't break the bank expensive.  
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Bob_Richter
02/20/03 02:16 AM
4.35.174.250
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Applebee's is crap. I wouldn't go there on a bet, and you can quote me on it. I'd sooner go to Taco Bell.
ONE person eating there where I'm from will cost you $25, without the tip. Well, that's unless you ignore appetizers and dessert. Then you can escape a lot cheaper. But that just looks cheap when you take a girl on a date.
So you're lucky either
1) food's a lot cheaper where you're at
or
2) Your gal doesn't mind you being cheap.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/20/03 02:17 AM
4.35.174.250
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some of us are too poor to go out EXCEPT for special occasions.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Nightmare
02/20/03 04:24 AM
80.222.92.246
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It`s rather easy to spend money on a night out. Some decent food shouldn`t be more than ~20€ per person, but then you get to the rest of the evening 
Admittance to nightclub 5-15€, drinks and beverages no less than 30€, and then you need a cab, probably adding 10€ more. Per person.
Advice for Evil Overlords:
My legions of terror will be trained in basic marksmanship. Any who cannot learn to hit a man-sized target at 10 meters will be used for target practice.
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The_Nice_Guy
02/20/03 10:07 AM
137.132.3.12
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One of the best reasons I had for buying the 3rd Ed box when I was just getting into the game was that there were minis inside. The price wasn't really a problem; it was a matter of "Is it worth it?"
Over here, we encourage new players to buy the BMR straight off the bat, instead of the box set, because the box set doesn't contain anything that really matters.
We would prefer them to use the money set aside for the box set to buy the BMR and more minis, which look a hell lot better.
So yeah, I don't see too many players buying the box set when they can buy the full L2 ruleset in the BMR and at least two minis for the same price.
And no, kids in my country have quite a bit of money, but not that much. A pack of MTG cards($10-$12) a week is fine for the teenager from 13-16 years old, but few of them have the discipline to save up enough to buy something that costs $50(the price of the box set here).
I dunno why, but the higher the price, the more difficult it is to sell to the kids, because they have to fight harder against the tendency for instant gratification.
The MW: DA players here are also mostly above 16 years old. Surprisingly, few of them have heard of CBT as well. So much for WK helping out FanPro.
The Nice Guy
Beyond common courage. The mark of a true soldier.
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masdog5
02/20/03 10:41 AM
205.213.145.138
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'Applebee's is crap. I wouldn't go there on a bet, and you can quote me on it. I'd sooner go to Taco Bell.'
Where I am at, Applebees is one of the best, especially if you want to avoid most of the drunks in town. The food here is alot cheaper, and my date and I were able to get away with 25 bucks with tip (kinda helps that neither one of us were big eaters).
As for TBell...well..most people I know around here only eat it because they are drunk and its the only place open at 1 AM on a Friday and Saturday. Personally, I wont touch that stuff...
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realworldviews
02/20/03 11:58 AM
24.98.62.128
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Where I am at, Applebees is one of the best, especially if you want to avoid most of the drunks in town. The food here is alot cheaper, and my date and I were able to get away with 25 bucks with tip (kinda helps that neither one of us were big eaters).
That is exactly what I was about to say.
I guess food is cheaper down here in GA.
And neither me or my GF are big eaters. We usually skip appetizers, and split a dessert.
I guess that we are just a couple of the lucky ones.
Colonel Brian Davis
Gamers United
"Dreams become reality, for all who start off with a dream"
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Gangrene
02/20/03 04:13 PM
68.113.44.60
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The MW: DA players here are also mostly above 16 years old. Surprisingly, few of them have heard of CBT as well. So much for WK helping out FanPro.
I don't think WK ever planned on "helping out" FanPro. FanPro has to make it on their own.
Are you really suprised that CBT is not well known?
Gangrene
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:20 PM
65.129.166.76
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$25 is reasonable since it compeats with MWDA's price of a starter and couple of boosters...where as the $35 price doesn't.
But if you feel that paying the $35 is worth it then I guess you will be willing to pay the same for the sourcebooks as well...I don't feel like paying that and thus I am speaking out about it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:34 PM
65.129.166.76
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I am not and given that BOTH games are aimed at the market of ages 12 and up, they are in DIRECT compotition with each other.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:35 PM
65.129.166.76
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Cheap? Really? What part of the country do you live in? Podunk Arkanass?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:39 PM
65.129.166.76
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But yet you are willing to defend the idea of $35 for a starter set to BT...interesting stance Bob, since you are to poor to take out your GF but can drop the same price that dinner and a movie would cost on a single game item...really interesting...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/22/03 05:44 PM
65.129.166.76
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Simple, Mommy and Daddy are paying for it...I have seen it enough and know all to well how it works, my brother's GF has two kids...she will buy them just about anything to shut them up and thus that is what 90% of the parents do most of the time.
BUT for those who don't, the price will push them to getting something else and when you tack on the part about how quick the kiddies get BORED with things the idea of spending $35 on pen and paper game won't be something they will doing.
But you, like Bob, seem to think that these prices are all find and danndy, meanwhile the rest of us don't.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/23/03 06:48 PM
205.213.146.15
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You dont seem to understand business very well, because if you did, you wouldnt be arguing this tooth and nail.
You CANT sell something for cheaper then it costs to make and expect advertisements, new products, etc, if you expect to remain a viable company.
35 is probably as reasonable as they can make it, especially if they want to advertise and put new product lines out and pay Wizkids the licensing fees for CBT.
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masdog5
02/23/03 06:51 PM
205.213.146.15
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Then if this is so obvious to everyone, why are you arguing for FanPro and Wizkids to increase the CBT line and attract more players to it if MWDA is the cash camel?
I know, we all want CBT to continue, but sometimes, you have to face the reality that it might be slowly killed off and replaced.
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Chas
02/23/03 11:08 PM
66.187.3.81
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Given the price of pulp publication today (remember, the price of paper has gone up dramatically in the last 7 years), would you rather they simply cut out all the artwork and delivered a B&W boxed rulebook and quick-start pamphlet for $25?
And how would they justify it against the BT:MR?
As to ragging on Bob about his "cheapness".
Dinner nowadays at anything more than McDonalds is a $30+ affair, plus tip. An a movie at anything other than an afternoon matinee is $16+. Plus obligatory refreshments.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/23/03 11:10 PM
66.187.3.81
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BUT for those who don't, the price will push them to getting something else
Or they'll club together with friends to buy the game. Since it provides everything several people would need to play.
This is how mh HS gaming club acquired a large communal library of products when we couldn't, individually, afford them all ourselves).
And, as to "the rest of us" not finding the price point acceptable.
Please don't deign to speak for everyone.
Yes, some people may dislike the price point. Others may not. But attempting to "win" an argument through bandwagoning ("everyone else does, so you should too") is poor form.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
02/24/03 10:38 AM
68.21.149.213
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And so is your playing YES man to everything WK does or alllows FP to do...
And your posting is a perfect example of that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 10:39 AM
68.21.149.213
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What ads? They haven't done any ads to push the product so no cost there, and I do understand business well enough to know that if you jacket the price up folks will NOT buy it if they have other choices.
Sorry you can't see that for your self.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 10:43 AM
68.21.149.213
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You are so correct, I forgot that you know all there is to know and no one else can know anything.
Sorry but you are wrong, but given your postion it makes no difference since you will spin things to support your side and slam anyone who disagreses with you.
The point here that the price increase hurts the game since it pushes the new fans towards other games and towards MWDA which is competing against BT, oh wait you and your cliche claim it's not, but the facts speak for themselves on that issue.
So how about staying on topic and stop trying to turn things into a flame war or is that asking to much of you?
Oh and if you recall what I told you last time about things expect the same this time and I did send one out.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/24/03 10:48 AM
205.213.146.15
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'The point here that the price increase hurts the game since it pushes the new fans towards other games and towards MWDA which is competing against BT, oh wait you and your cliche claim it's not, but the facts speak for themselves on that issue.'
I've said this once and I will say it again:
CLASSIC BATTLETECH IS DYING. WK WANTS PEOPLE PUSHED TOWARDS MWDA. FANPRO IS JUST THERE TO FINISH THE CURRENT LINES AND CATCH UP TO THE MWDA TIMELINE.
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LordChaos
02/24/03 01:49 PM
67.41.67.32
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What karagin is missing, even though many many people have pointed it out is...
Yes, the box set's price is higher. BUT IT'S COST TO PRODUCE IS ALSO HIGHER. They could NOT release it at the previous price point without reducing / eliminating content from the set. Even if they only included exactly what was in the previous set they would loose money at the previous price point as the cost of production has risen.
Everything is more expensive now then it was 7 years ago when the previous set was released.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Karagin
02/24/03 01:56 PM
68.21.149.160
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No I didn't miss it...the part that is missed is that this the point where the new fans are suposse to be able to get into the game...and with the higher cost they are going to look else where.
They are charging way to much and not really giving the fans or the new comers anything that is worth $35...what is in the new box set is really only worth $25.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LordChaos
02/24/03 02:20 PM
67.41.67.32
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You keep saying that this set is only worth $25.
You keep missing that IT LIKELY COST NEAR (OR MORE THEN) $25 TO PRODUCE, PACKAGE, AND DISTRIBUTE IT.
Are you advocating that they sell the game for less then it cost them to make? How much of a loss should they take on every box set then? And how will they remain solvent then, when (according to you) they should be selling the game at less then it cost them to put into the stores in the first place.
EVERYTHING cost more now then it did 7 years ago, even things that include less then they did then.
Were are kids going to get money for this? Were do they get money for 3rd ed AD&D ($30 per book). How about comice? (up in price, but still selling). PC games? (price as risen about the same amount). I could go on, but if you haven't gotten the point yet, you are ether brain dead (which I highly doubt, everything else I've seen you do seems to show intelligence) or extreamly stuborn (possible, and not always a bad thing).
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:20 PM
4.35.174.250
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Dinner and a movie actually costs a bit more than that.
DINNER costs $40. That's just the cost of food around here....particularly feeding a 300lb guy and his black hole of a (now ex-[no it didn't have anything to do with not having money]]girlfriend. A matinee showing costs upward of $10 with two people. That's without drinkage and snackage, which she typically insisted on. Of course, a non-matinee show would cost quite a bit more.
Things must be VERY cheap where you are for dinner and a movie to come in under $35.
$35 isn't a bad price for a gaming product. When I was a kid, I could afford that. I'm not anymore. I can't afford ANYTHING.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:28 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Sorry but you are wrong,<<<
And yet you fail to contest any of his (wholly valid) points. Interesting.
>>>The point here that the price increase hurts the game since it pushes the new fans towards other games and towards MWDA which is competing against BT,<<<
You're wrong.
MWDA does compete against CBT, in the vague sort of way that Monoploy competes against DnD. Some people will never be interested in clicky-based miniatures, others will never be interested in a complex wargame like CBT. There's some overlap (I, for instance, actually enjoy a good game of MWDA every once in a blue moon,) but the products aren't in direct competition.
Second, in case you hadn't noticed, a MWDA starter pack costs $20. That's *a* 'Mech and assorted other stuff. It's not even a tournament army, especially not a faction-specific one. To really play the game, you need TWO or more of these, and probably several booster packs. The price skyrockets quickly.
CBT comes in an inexpensive $35 boxed set. And, yes, the price of paper HAS risen dramatically. I should know, I hang around folks who publish and distribute a newspaper.
Find another game that you can practically get into for $35 that might reasonably be said to be in direct competition with CBT and then try this arguement, because as it stands, you've not a leg to stand on.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:30 PM
4.35.174.250
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So are personal attacks. This was one.
I'm not a mod here, but I'll ask that you kindly back down. This kind of crap is completely uncalled for.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:31 PM
4.35.174.250
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Starter: $20
2 Boosters: $20
$20+$20 = $40.
Just thought I'd do the math for you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:33 PM
4.35.174.250
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There's your mistake: you're assuming the price has been jacked up.
Wake up, Karagin. In the mid-eighties, your average gaming book may have cost $15-$20 (in fact, it did.) Today it costs $25-$35.
Things are that much more expensive. Deal with it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/24/03 03:34 PM
4.35.174.250
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If that's how you define DIRECT competition, they're in real trouble, because they're both competing against CARTOONS.
Geez, Karagin.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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masdog5
02/24/03 04:03 PM
205.213.146.15
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'No I didn't miss it...the part that is missed is that this the point where the new fans are suposse to be able to get into the game...and with the higher cost they are going to look else where.'
But the prices for most consumer goods have gone up since the last BT boxed set was released. If you take everything in perspective, it is competitve for what you get in the set.
'They are charging way to much and not really giving the fans or the new comers anything that is worth $35...what is in the new box set is really only worth $25.'
Thats a very arrogant statement. Do you know how much it costs Fanpro to produce the product? DO you know what printing, packaging, and distribution costs?
When i started gaming, most of the books I bought were in the price range of 15 to 30 dollars. Besides the material in the book, I got jack [deleted]. For the BT boxed set, you get alot of material, including introduciton and level 2 rules, cardboard cutout mechs, and a poster sized map sheet. That is a very good deal.
Considering what it costs to put on a decent Whitewolf Gaming systems campaign, 35 bucks for a set that includes pretty much everything you will need for a match is excellent.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:06 PM
68.21.149.195
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Where is the cost increase coming from for the product? Nothing in the box set shows that they added anything that would warrant a price increase.
Please show us something that makes it very clear that the price increase is warrant...so far I don't see it and that is taking in account the idea that things cost more now then they did seven years ago...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:07 PM
68.21.149.195
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And this is from the same person who is against them placing ads in other magazines and such...right okay if you say so Bob.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:09 PM
68.21.149.195
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WTF?
I just saw freaking booster in Meijer's (local ubermarket) and it was $19.95 and the boosters where around $9.95. Even if you don't buy two boosters you set get MORE for a lot less then FP is asking for 5th ED BT...
But then again this is from the same person who is against them placing ads in other magazines and such...right okay if you say so Bob.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:11 PM
68.21.149.195
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The only assumation around here is the one where some of us fans actually thought FP gave a damn about BT....and yes the price HAS BEEN jacked up.
I am sorry you can't see or understand this, bu then again since this is from the same person who is against them placing ads in other magazines and such...right okay if you say so Bob.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:12 PM
68.21.149.195
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And you comments are not welcome either, and I have yet to see you back down. So how about you take your own advice or is that asking to much?
I can see that your mentor has taught you well, glad to see that you are learning his tactics.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:13 PM
68.21.149.195
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What? I thought you were the same kid who could afford to drop $200 on a computer...come on Bob get the story straight please.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:14 PM
68.21.149.195
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I have contested his points and if you would read the post and stop with the attacks and sarcasitic comments you might see that.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 05:16 PM
68.21.149.195
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Do you know how much it cost them? Arrgoant or not, it's a legimate complaint. The higher cost is going to hurt the sales of the game and the fact is very clear when you compare what you get in the box set to the other games that gamers can spend the same amount on, that they are NOT getting their money's worth from FP with the box set for the $35 they are asking.
Why is it so hard for you and the rest to see that the asking price is way too high?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/24/03 07:03 PM
205.213.146.15
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Its not a legitiamte complaint, though. I may not know how much it costs, but I would pay the money to by the boxed set, or get some of my friends to go in on it with me, if I was interested in the game.
It costs 90 dollars to get enough information to run an effective DnD campaign. It cost twice that to run a well developed, multi-race whitewolf campaign.
In minitures games, its even more because you actually need the pieces to play. MWDA is $20 for a starter, $10 for a booster. In order to get a decent army, you need to put alot of money into it. Warhammer and its variants cost even more because you have to buy the pieces individually.
Thats where BT is the exception. You dont need the mini's to play. You can play a campaign right out of the box. The other books, like the Master Rules and Max Tech come in handy and help you build better campaigns, but they arent required for one.
You asked why it is so hard for me to see that the asking price is so high? Well, I dont think that it is so high. I think it is pretty fair, especially for what I would get in the package.
I dont see it as a legitimate complaint, compared to the costs of other games. $35 dollars for a game you can play right out of the box isnt asking too much, especially if the gamers do a little research on the products they buy.
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masdog5
02/24/03 07:21 PM
205.213.146.15
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I dont see how you get more from a $9.95 booster or a $19.95 starter.
According to Wizkids site, you only get 8 miniatures in your starter, only one of them a mech. You get 4 minis in the booster, again, only one a mech.
As for teh starter packs, you dont get as much as you do in the 5th edition. You get:
8 MechWarrior miniatures, painted and assembled (1 ’Mech, 2 vehicles, 5 infantry)
36-page rulebook
1 Special Equipment Card
3 Dice
1 Flexible Ruler
Thats all you get in the MWDA starters.
I dont see how you are getting more out of that...or is it just because of a lower cost and cheap plastic minis?
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Karagin
02/24/03 07:50 PM
68.21.149.102
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I am sorry you feel that it's not. I am glad to know that you are willing to go along with this price increase without even questioning it.
I am sorry you don't see my point and I am very sorry that you feel that I am not being fair to FanPro. So I guess the idea of wanting quailty products for REASONABLE prices is something shouldn't be expected from FanPro, because to question their motives or actions is wrong in your eyes.
So if you feel that I am wrong then I guess that is your right and so goes life.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 07:54 PM
68.21.149.102
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Let's see you get actually miniatures or action figures to use, that's not in the 5th ED Box Set.
So let's compare 36 cardboard counters to the minitaures...gee, now if you wanted new fans to stay with the game having the miniatures in the box set...no wait that would make sense.
You get more mainly because you have money left over after buying the MWDA stuff compared to the same amount of cash spent on the BT box set...
I guess you don't shop around for the best deal very often do you?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:13 PM
152.163.189.136
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>An a movie at anything other than an afternoon matinee is $16+. Plus obligatory refreshments. <
Man, I'm glad I live in Southeast Tennessee. I only have to pay $7 a ticket down here. :-)
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:21 PM
152.163.189.136
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>Let's see you get actually miniatures or action figures to use, that's not in the 5th ED Box Set.<
But NOT enough minis to actually do anything with, which is the entire reason that MWDA is called collectible.
>You get more mainly because you have money left over after buying the MWDA stuff compared to the same amount of cash spent on the BT box set...<
Again, one MWDA Starter Set is not enough to really play the game. Whereas the 5th Ed. IS. Granted, it would have been nice if the 5th Edition came with some minis, but the minis have never been necessary to play BattleTech.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:27 PM
152.163.189.136
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>As for TBell...well..most people I know around here only eat it because they are drunk and its the only place open at 1 AM on a Friday and Saturday. Personally, I wont touch that stuff... <
You forgot to mention all of the obnoxiously annoying teenagers, man. Taco Hell would be more appropriate.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:32 PM
152.163.189.136
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>Warhammer and its variants cost even more because you have to buy the pieces individually.<
Or about $200 for some of the boxed armies.
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:39 PM
152.163.189.136
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Here's a link on paper price increases I found. Somewhat interesting...
www.faxon.com/proj/default.htm
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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Bloodrider
02/24/03 08:54 PM
152.163.189.136
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www.publishingmall.com/news.cfm?News_ID=105
www.collegejournal.com/researchindustries/ researchindustries/publishing-v.html
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room..." -from Dr. Strangelove
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masdog5
02/24/03 09:31 PM
205.213.146.15
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More like Toxic Hell... 
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masdog5
02/24/03 09:45 PM
205.213.146.15
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'Let's see you get actually miniatures or action figures to use, that's not in the 5th ED Box Set. '
You get 8 minis to start with. That allows you to play, what? One small, localized engagement. In order to make an effective game, each player would need to spend $40 bucks (one starter and two boosters) to get enough units to somewhat customize their army.
Unless my math is a little fuzzy, thats $80 bucks between two players...alot more then the $35 needed to buy the CBT boxed set.
'So let's compare 36 cardboard counters to the minitaures...gee, now if you wanted new fans to stay with the game having the miniatures in the box set...no wait that would make sense.'
It would, but only if you wanted to pay for those 36 mini's, which are metal IIRC.
Mini's arent required to play BT. Helpful, yes. But not nessecary. All you need is a few slips of paper to mark which mech is which.
'You get more mainly because you have money left over after buying the MWDA stuff compared to the same amount of cash spent on the BT box set...'
Again, my math may be fuzzy, but if you and a friend were to each buy one starter of MWDA, you would get 16 minis at a cost of 40 bucks. You wouldnt have battles with a number of different units unless you spent more money on boosters. With the starter set, you start out with 36 mechs, even though they may be cardboard counters. Thats twice the number of units you get with two MWDA starters, and since you dont need the minis to play cbt, you can add any of the mechs, vehicles, etc without having to go out and try to get them, saving you even more money.
And the best part is, you have $5 left over to get some wonderful taco bell after you are done with your shopping.
'I guess you don't shop around for the best deal very often do you?'
Actually, I do. I usually try to strike the best balance between price and quality that I can...
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masdog5
02/24/03 09:45 PM
205.213.146.15
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I guess part of the whole problem is what we all consider reasonable. I feel that 35 is completely reasonable, compared to the prices of several other games.
What I dont think is fair is how anyone who doesnt agree with you is automatically against you. There are reasons for a price increase, most likely because of materials and other underlying costs, such as those for their licensing agreement.
I'm sorry that you seem to not want to consider other opinions, because you have completely disregarded and attacked opinions given by Chas, Bob, myself, and others.
I'm sorry that you cant see that $10 isnt that big of an increase, given the FACT that FP NEEDS to pay WIZKIDS for EVERY product that they sell and that it takes alot more then that to get a comparable battle going in MWDA.
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Karagin
02/24/03 11:36 PM
68.21.149.232
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Amazing, I have considered all points, but it's odd how quick you change your tune to say that I am now not listening to you. Thing is you haven't been listening to anything I have posted.
You seems to think I am automatically against you because you disagree with me...sorry that's not the case. What I am against is this defense of FP's price guaging of the fans.
Maybe you should read the whole thread again, and maybe this time you will see that my main point is that they could have done a better job for less, given that this the product that is suppose to lure in fans and show the BT world with out all the uber reading and high prices that come with the sourcebooks and such...but hey what does it matter since the herd animal mentailty seems to be what WK is counting on here from the fans.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/24/03 11:38 PM
68.21.149.232
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It seems you don't.
But hey why fight the herd since it's easier to just go along with the group...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/24/03 11:55 PM
205.213.146.15
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And yet you cant even respond to one of my points.
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Karagin
02/25/03 12:08 AM
68.21.149.232
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Your points...let's see...new fan buys either BT 5th Ed or MWDA Starter and some boosters...
Okay I am saying that at the current price of the box set the fan would be more likely to buy the MWDA starter since he saves money. Your point claims he's better off buying the Box set price be damn...
Then you toss in the idea that it takes TWO folks buying the MWDA stuff to equal one buying the Box Set...so tell me how did we go from one fan to two?
The point here is that the cost is a rip off. There is NOTHING in the box set that says the priice of $35 is worth it. Nothing. No miniatures, no metal figures, no super cool artwork in full color, nothing that makes the box set stand out and demand to be bought over say MWDA or a D&D book or anything else that might catch the fans eye in the store...
Then you keep pointing out the obvious that WK is sucking BT dry...thank you I think 80% of us know this. That isn't the main point here. That is the under lying point to the issue yes, but not the main one.
You argue that they had to raise the cost since everything cost more now, actually you and Bob both are on this point, and I countered that given that this (the box set) is the starting point for new fans it would make more sense to have it sell for less say around $25. You again claimed they couldn't do it because they wouldn't be making money on it...now I ask do you think they are going to be making a lot on the box set with the $35 price tag? I doubt it.
So let's see you claim that the price increase is a good thing and something shows they are trying. I on the other hand see this as an inflated price that isn't warrant and just gouges the fans and the new fans out of money since the product doesn't give anything worth the asking price.
So tell us. do you support the record industry and their inflated prices on new and old CDs given that the musicans don't get more then $5 from each sale?
And if the price of the box set is so high, then wouldn't it make sense to have a good ad campaign out there to promot it so as there is a chance to make some money back? They do have spend money to make money...and it seems that they are afraid to do that.
So what were your points again? Oh yes...how we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape or fashion and that we should just pay what ever they ask and not question things...or do you have another stance?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LordChaos
02/25/03 12:32 PM
67.41.67.32
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"Where is the cost increase coming from for the product? Nothing in the box set shows that they added anything that would warrant a price increase.
Please show us something that makes it very clear that the price increase is warrant...so far I don't see it and that is taking in account the idea that things cost more now then they did seven years ago..."
You have that short of memory? This was shown in another post in this thread :
In 1996, the BT4E was published for $25. It contained 48 full color card board counters, 32 page, full-color universe book (only included 4 half-page color shots along with the 24 Mechs), 48 page rulebook, dice, stands and a small sticker sheet.
Seven years later the CBT box set contains 48 full-color cardboard counters, a 48 page full-color universe book (contains 8 full-page color pieces and 4 half-page pieces, along with the 24 Mechs), a 64 page rulebook, a full-color 16 page quick-start rules pamphlet, a full-color poster-sized map of the IS, stands and dice.
Let's look at that, shall we? Univers book increased in size by 50%, with amount of full color pages in it increasing by over 400%. Rule book increased in size by 33%. The quick start rules book and poster map of the IS have no equivilent in the 4th edition.
And you have to nerve to set there, in light of an increase in content of at least 30%, and claim that it's price isn't in line with the 4th edition? I have to agree with the guy who posted that compairison originaly. Compaired to the 4th edition, how did they get away with only charging $35 considering not only increase in costs but all the extra they put in the 5th edition.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Karagin
02/25/03 01:57 PM
68.21.149.61
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So we get more pages in the rule...and some color pages...and for all of that, not counting the map, we get an increase of $10...I still don't see why the price went up for a few more pages and some color ones at that...There were NO plastic mechs like 3rd Ed and that one costed $20 to $25 and was a high seller.
So we are forced to pay an extra $10 for the quick start rules, a map of the IS and some color pages...wow I am glad I only payed $20 for it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/25/03 02:56 PM
66.84.240.243
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In reply to:
So what were your points again? Oh yes...how we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape or fashion and that we should just pay what ever they ask and not question things...
Absolutely, because a year ago we didn't even have that. We had nothing. The very fact that you have anything to complain about should make you very happy.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/25/03 03:07 PM
68.21.149.211
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Nice company line...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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masdog5
02/25/03 04:18 PM
205.213.146.254
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'Then you toss in the idea that it takes TWO folks buying the MWDA stuff to equal one buying the Box Set...so tell me how did we go from one fan to two?'
It takes two fans to play the game, correct? MWDA is designed so that each new player has to buy their own starter if they want to play. That isnt so with BT, since mini's arent required to play the game.
'The point here is that the cost is a rip off. There is NOTHING in the box set that says the priice of $35 is worth it.'
Your opinion.
'Nothing. No miniatures, no metal figures, no super cool artwork in full color, nothing that makes the box set stand out and demand to be bought over say MWDA or a D&D book or anything else that might catch the fans eye in the store...'
I havent seen the artwork in the new boxed set, so I cant judge it yet. From what I have heard, there is new full color art, more so then the previous boxed set. There is more backstory included with the new version of the game too. That might not mean much to us because we have been immersed in the universe for some time, but to a new player, it means alot.
When I first started gaming, I bought some of the Whitewolf products because of the background information included with the product, not the artwork.
'That isn't the main point here. That is the under lying point to the issue yes, but not the main one.'
Understanding underlying issues is important when it comes to discussing the main issue.
'You argue that they had to raise the cost since everything cost more now, actually you and Bob both are on this point, and I countered that given that this (the box set) is the starting point for new fans it would make more sense to have it sell for less say around $25. You again claimed they couldn't do it because they wouldn't be making money on it...now I ask do you think they are going to be making a lot on the box set with the $35 price tag? I doubt it.'
You cant sell a product for less than it costs to make, unless you can afford to take a loss. I highly doubt that Fanpro can afford to take a loss. I dont think htey will make a lot on the $35 dollar price, but that is most likely the bare minimum that they could sell the product for.
'So let's see you claim that the price increase is a good thing and something shows they are trying. I on the other hand see this as an inflated price that isn't warrant and just gouges the fans and the new fans out of money since the product doesn't give anything worth the asking price.'
See above comments.
'So tell us. do you support the record industry and their inflated prices on new and old CDs given that the musicans don't get more then $5 from each sale?'
Nice loaded question. It depends on the artist. I wont buy an NSYNC cd because the band makes 5 million if htey get 5 bucks out of every cd, but I will buy the cd of an artist that I really like.
I normally wouldnt even do that, but I miss my napster.
'And if the price of the box set is so high, then wouldn't it make sense to have a good ad campaign out there to promot it so as there is a chance to make some money back? They do have spend money to make money...and it seems that they are afraid to do that.'
I think that we have covered this issue alot, and I have constantly brought up the point that they may not simply have the resources to currently do one. We dont have any figures on FP's income, expenses, the licensing agreement between them and WK, and what ad space costs. Now, if we could get some of that information, then we wouldnt be speculating and could actually come up with some proposal for FP.
'Oh yes...how we should be happy to have Battletech in any shape or fashion and that we should just pay what ever they ask and not question things...'
Putting words in my mouth.
My point was merely that there are reasons for the decisions they made, reasons that we dont know because we dont have access to all the data.
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LordChaos
02/25/03 04:48 PM
67.41.67.32
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4th edition boxed set (the last box set before this) was $25. It die NOT have minitures in it however.
5th edition (this one) is $35 dollars. An increase of 40%. However, it ALSO increased the amount of content by about 25-30%, AND increased the quality (and hense production cost) of said content, AND requires the manufactures to pay a licensing fee.
And you are complaining about the price increase? I wouldn't be suprised if the profit per box on 5th edition is LOWER then any other edition.
Compaired to 4th edition at $25, I'd estimate that this is just about the lowest they can price it without loosing money on each box.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:55 PM
4.35.174.250
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You have not.
And if you would read the posts and stop with the sarcastic comments (and maybe take a freshman logic class,) you might see that.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:57 PM
4.35.174.250
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What did you miss from that story.
First, let me restate: I'm not a kid anymore. I'm Twenty-One years old, no longer delivering papers with the loving housing and feeding support of my parents.
WHEN I WAS A KID, I spent hundreds of dollars on computers, Battletech, Shadowrun, what have you. And everyone else I knew supported similarly expensive hobbies.
I reiterate, I'm not a kid. I can't afford to spend lots of money on stuff anymore. Kids have it easy.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 04:58 PM
4.35.174.250
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...you're the only one who's out of line here.
Back off, before I sick Nic on you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:02 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>and yes the price HAS BEEN jacked up.<<<
This you claim, because it costs $10 more than it did a decade ago?
THINGS HAVE CHANGED, and if you can't figure that out, I'm very sorry for you.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:10 PM
4.35.174.250
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OOh, so I'm off by $.15
It's called ESTIMATING, Karagin.
$19.95 = $19.95
2x $9.95 = $19.90
$19.95 + $19.90 = $39.85
(and that doesn't count the Governor's Cut.)
Geez, you're anal-retentive.
>>>>Even if you don't buy two boosters you set get MORE for a lot less then FP is asking for 5th ED BT...<<<
$15 isn't a lot of money. Surely you've figured that out.
Tournament armies are 200 points. I'd like to see you find THAT in a starter set. No, you were right. A decent start in MWDA comes from a Starter ($19.95) and a couple of Boosters ($9.95 each)
There's more STUFF in the new CBT boxed set (even if none of it is those pretty plastic minis that cost so dreadfully much.)
And it lends itself instantly to infinite replayability with any number of people. That single $35 dollar purchase is, like a Monopoly game, the ONLY THING YOU WILL EVER NEED TO PLAY BATTLETECH.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Chas
02/25/03 05:10 PM
69.14.67.197
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"Nice company line."
I love it. No matterwhat anyone says to you, your only response is that it's some huge company conspiracy.
Get over it.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:13 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>now if you wanted new fans to stay with the game having the miniatures in the box set...<<
Cardboard is cheap. Plastic is a bit more expensive.
You were freaked out about the thing costing $35. What would your reaction have been had it cost $40? $50? That's what you're talking about. Minis are NOT cheap, nor are they necessary to play the game.
Fans will stick with a game because it is FUN, not because it is PRETTY.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Chas
02/25/03 05:14 PM
69.14.67.197
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"Even if you don't buy two boosters you set get MORE for a lot less then FP is asking for 5th ED BT..."
Then go buy MWDA!
;-)
You forget, BT is INTENDED to be a pen and paper game. It's going to have a much broader rules base than DA is. And it's going to require more in the way of printed materials than DA is. And since paper and publication aren't free, it's going to cost money. Depending on the production values, it could cost a LOT of money.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/25/03 05:16 PM
69.14.67.197
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"And so is your playing YES man to everything WK does or alllows FP to do..."
Dude, take the chip off the shoulder.
I merely disagree with you. If you can't deal with that, the problem is all yours.
As for labelling me a "Yes Man". I merely take comfort in the fact that you don't know what you're talking about.
And your posting is a perfect example of that.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/25/03 05:23 PM
69.14.67.197
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"You are so correct, I forgot that you know all there is to know and no one else can know anything."
No. I disagreed with you. There's a difference.
"Sorry but you are wrong, but given your postion it makes no difference since you will spin things to support your side and slam anyone who disagreses with you."
I'm not the one making the slams here Karagin. You're the one calling names.
And the only way you've even addressed my points is by saying "you are wrong". Yet you didn't say which point I was wrong about, or why I was wrong.
Address the issue, stop instigating.
"The point here that the price increase hurts the game"
What are they supposed to do? Give the game away?
"it pushes the new fans towards other games"
Not necessarily. It could just push them towards the older fans. Or could cause them to *GASP* socialize to collect materials.
"but the facts speak for themselves on that issue."
What "facts" Karagin. Please supply some "facts" to back up your hyperbole.
"So how about staying on topic and stop trying to turn things into a flame war or is that asking to much of you?"
Phsysician, heal thyself!
Note: I WAS on topic. I still am. Where are you?
"Oh and if you recall what I told you last time about things expect the same this time and I did send one out."
Refresh my memory. Or is this about you trying to tell me, and everyone else you happen to not agree with to just not say anything when you post here?
Sorry, ain't gonna happen. That's why it's a MESSAGE board.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:26 PM
68.21.149.101
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Just as soon as you and the others stop attacking those who speak out about things they don't like and are only doing so in the hope that TPTB will actual live up to their promise of listening...so when that happens 100% without any reservations I will then get over it...
Till then keep on spouting the company propoganda...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
02/25/03 05:26 PM
69.14.67.197
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"Today it costs $25-$35."
Take a look at the D&D 3.5 edition books. $30+ each.
And the 2ndEd were $20-25 back in '89.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:27 PM
4.35.174.250
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I wasn't going to buy this boxed set.
But now I am.
Why?
Because I want FanPro to have the money to buy those expensive ads you seem to think they need.
Because I think a $35 boxed set is better than none.
Because the content described is downright intriguing. (a full-color universe book? Kick ASS!)
And because I don't want Battletech EVER to DIE, which you don't seem to care about. So keep complaining about the price, I no longer care.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:29 PM
68.21.149.101
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Maybe, but it still hurts the chances of getting new fans who are looking for inexpensive game to play...I still think they could have done it for the same price as the 4th Ed. That way they have the lower price in their favor and would possible draw folks to the game and then they could have used the extra moneys spent on the uber art work...(which I still don't see in the 5th ED) on advertistment of the Box Set and thus recouped some money as folks see that the game is alive and thus they buy it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
02/25/03 05:30 PM
69.14.67.197
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"Nothing in the box set shows that they added anything that would warrant a price increase. "
Two things.
1: We're not asking about your opinion of the materials included.
2: You're still completely ignoring the costs to produce and distribute.
"Please show us something that makes it very clear that the price increase is warrant"
Let's turn it around.
Show us something that makes it clear that it's NOT worth the price increase. Go ahead and e-mail Rob or Randall and ask them about how much it cost to produce, print, and distro the product.
"I don't see."
That's because you don't WANT to see. You're simply determined to gnaw at this until someone pushes you away.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:30 PM
68.21.149.101
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Right on Bob! You have learned your lessons well...tote the company line!
You are doing a damn good job of it...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:31 PM
68.21.149.101
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Two things:
1) When did you buy FP?
2) When did you replace Randal as LD?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
02/25/03 05:33 PM
69.14.67.197
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"The only assumation around here is the one where some of us fans actually thought FP gave a damn about BT..."
Try actually talking to the people who produce the product. THEN tell me that they don't give a damn.
"and yes the price HAS BEEN jacked up."
Always gotta have the last word.
And, again, I'll clarify. YES, the price has been jacked up. For a LEGITIMATE reason. But you simply don't wanna hear that.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
02/25/03 05:33 PM
69.14.67.197
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"I have contested his points"
"You are wrong" doesn't constitute a contestation.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Karagin
02/25/03 05:34 PM
68.21.149.101
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The only chip around here is the one that seems to come up when ever anyone speaks out about things they don't like or would like to see changed in BT...funny how quick certain folks appear to attack and slam but are never around for the other 99% of the topics and such...
But hey it's just us naysayers who are causing the problems...yeah sure if you say so...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:35 PM
68.21.149.101
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I have spoken to folks who have used and own the product...so nice try friend.
And what legitmate reason would that be? Oh wait...the inflation reason...right I remember now...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:36 PM
68.21.149.101
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And your attacking folks who speak out about things they feel need changing is any better?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:37 PM
68.21.149.101
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Sorry Bob, but it's you who are out of line...you attack and run and then cry foul...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:38 PM
68.21.149.101
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Pen and Paper or not, it's still a miniatures game...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:38 PM
4.35.174.250
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disagreeing with you does not constitute making an attack, Karagin.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:40 PM
68.21.149.101
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Nice attack Bob, I would complain but then again Chas won't do anything about it...so keep at it you are doing a fine job of attacking folks who don't tow the company line and who want a better product...but hey I guess that's okay.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:40 PM
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No it isn't.
It CAN BE. There are rules to play it with miniatures, but Battletech IS NOT a miniatures game. It's a tactical game played on a hexmap. Any kind of counter will work to represent any kind of unit.
I have played Battletech for well over a decade now, and I've only ever owned the minis from the third-edition box set...oh, and a Wolfhound.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 05:40 PM
68.21.149.101
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Sure they do since 99% of their income is from mommy and daddy...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:42 PM
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Yeah, it is.
Your point?
Doesn't matter where the money COMES from. What matters is they HAVE it and they SPEND it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:43 PM
68.21.149.101
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Miniature games are tactical games...or are you suggesting that all of the historical wargames are not? 
Bob miniatures can be anything you want...hence the easy of playing these can of games...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 05:45 PM
68.21.149.101
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Bells and whistles sell products...no bells and no whistels means that while it may be fun on Thursday by Sunday it's old and boring.
IF and let me stress that IF the 5th ED had plastic miniatures then the price that they are asking for it would be far more logical then it is right now.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:45 PM
4.35.174.250
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I've posted literally HUNDREDS of topics on this board over the years on things I would like to change about Battletech.
I get ignored. People argue with me, but I've never been ATTACKED over it.
Come to think of it, NEITHER HAVE YOU.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 05:46 PM
68.21.149.101
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They spend someone elses money...that is the point on that topic...
Wait tell you have kids...then you will full understand.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:46 PM
4.35.174.250
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bells and whistles make the initial sale, yes. Cover art is almost the most important thing there is.
But gameplay is what keeps it interesting for more than a few days.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Karagin
02/25/03 05:47 PM
68.21.149.101
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You win, I am wrong and all is well with Battletech.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:47 PM
4.35.174.250
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The point is irrelevant. They have it. They spend it.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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masdog5
02/25/03 05:48 PM
205.213.146.15
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'I have spoken to folks who have used and own the product...so nice try friend.'
Thats not the same as the people who develop it...
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:49 PM
4.35.174.250
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>>>Miniature games are tactical games...<<<
Squares are rectangles.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
Bob_Richter
02/25/03 05:50 PM
4.35.174.250
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Thank you.
Why the sudden change of heart?
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
|
masdog5
02/25/03 05:59 PM
205.213.146.15
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If you think the product is truely that bad and needs to be improved, sitting around and [deleted] about it on a message board wont get you anywhere, no matter who browses it. Anyone who sees the way you write will either try to avoid you or not take you seriously because all you seem to do is cry about an issue.
If you would come up with a better way of presenting the information, and do it in a better place, like Randall's email, then you might get the improvements you seek...or at least some reason why it cant be done at this time.
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Karagin
02/25/03 06:13 PM
68.21.149.101
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If you say so, but given that you have yet to disgree where it can been seen as anything other then an attack...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 06:14 PM
68.21.149.101
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And this proves what?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 06:16 PM
68.21.149.101
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BS...I have been attacked by you, Chas, Chunga, Warner and the rest of cliche that you run with...so please get your facts straight, and this happens everytime I speak out about things I don't like or would like to see changed...and I have seen you and your buddies do the same to others...so please go sell you snake oil down the road.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 06:17 PM
68.21.149.101
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No Change of heart Bob...I am sick of the company line and the lack of listening by those that claim to be in the know...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Bob_Richter
02/25/03 06:22 PM
4.35.174.250
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BS, you've been attacked by NOBODY and been whaling all over Chas, Chunga, Warner, and plenty of other people I barely know.
The word is clique, not cliche, and I'm not a part of any clique containing Chunga, Chas, and Warner. I'm kinda friendly with two out of three of those. You could be too, if you tried.
People try to set you straight every time your cheap ass whines, and that's all there is to it, aside of the fact that you REFUSE to be set straight.
Of course, you'll never see that. I don't know why I bother.
In fact, that's why I'm quitting. Have a nice time with your little flame-war, Karagin. I'll be waiting when you're done.
-Bob (The Magnificent) Richter
Assertions made in this post are the humble opinion of Bob.
They are not necessarily statements of fact or decrees from God Himself, unless explicitly and seriously stated to be so.
:)
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masdog5
02/25/03 06:25 PM
205.213.146.15
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Alot. You seem to like complaining, but you never actually talk to the people who can make a difference about your complaints.
And dont give me any bull[deleted] about leaving that post for Warner. Thats not communicating your problems. Yeah, he might have asked for opinions, but just posting it on a board does nothing.
If you feel this strongly about this topic, then YOU should take some responsibility, write out an email where you dont come off like a spoiled little brat, and present your case to the people at FP.
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LordChaos
02/25/03 08:33 PM
67.41.67.32
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Ok, let me put it to you in clear, straight, blunt terms.
In order for them to charge the same as 4th edition, they would need to do 1 of 2 things :
Reduce content and quality, quite posible below that of 4th edition. (we are talking 1st edition levels and quality).
or
Loose money on every box sold.
Which would you have them do? Post a loss on every single sale? Can't do that for long and not go bankrupt quickly. Or should they produce and release a poor quality product, arguabley worse then every edition before it in quality and quantity? That route is the road to customer hostility.
Here's a free clue : People don't mind paying for a high quality product that they get lots of.
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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LordChaos
02/25/03 08:35 PM
67.41.67.32
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"(a full-color universe book? Kick ASS!)"
That right there makes me serriously think about buying this...
Real mechwariors pilot IS mechs.
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Karagin
02/25/03 09:18 PM
68.21.149.158
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I understand that. But for what they are charging I don't see the high quialty...there is no super artwork that differs from any of the other artwork we have seen, and if adding in a color map of the IS causes the price to go up, one would think that they could hold the map for say...FM Update or something like that...
Putting out a less costly product with decent quailty isn't hard to do...it's matter of thinking and budgeting. I think they could have done what they have in the current set and charged less if they really thought it through...think about it...simple rules, that cover the basics...nothing fancy...that is what the BMR-R is for...leave out the color map and keep the page count down, remember this is the starter set not the whole Level 2 and 3 nutshell...then have something in there that pushes the new players towards the other products....
The KISS idea comes to mind...Keep It Simple...they didn't do that here...dealying it to get more art...gee that means cost overruns and we all see where that went, the fans want decent products...not overpriced products that have you wondering why you bought and turns a potentional fan way given that he or she can spend the same amount on other games and get more for their money. Couple this with the lack of advertistment and as it has been said, one write up in a magazine that sees LIMITED distrobution doesn't mean they have advertisted, spells low sales and poor return.
I am sorry but if this is the trend for future products then the current fan base is going to be it...no growth no game...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 09:20 PM
68.21.149.158
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Just looked through the game...there is NO full color universe book...the only thing that is in color is the map and the quickplay rules...there is no universe book in the Box Set...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chas
02/25/03 10:37 PM
66.187.4.132
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"Nice attack Bob, I would complain but then again Chas won't do anything about it"
Really? Want to ask Bob why he was banned for Sarna for two weeks?
Don't presume to tell people what I will and will not do. All you know about me is filtered through your (mostly bad) interactions with me when you were in the wrong.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
02/25/03 10:45 PM
66.187.4.132
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"The only chip around here is the one that seems to come up when ever anyone speaks out about things they don't like or would like to see changed in BT"
Let's just say I disagree here. There's a chip there, but not the one you posit. And it's one of several chips that float about here.
The chip you misrepresent is towards people who complain.
Not those who complain CONSTRUCTIVELY. Just the non-constructive stuff.
"This sucks" doesn't do anyone any good.
"This sucks, but here's an idea about how we could fix it" is a LOT better, and much more easily assimilated and acted upon.
If the developers listened to every "This sucks. THE END" statement, we wouldn't have ANYTHING today.
If you want constructive action taken, give constructive criticism and constructive solutions when you see them.
If that's too much to ask, don't be surprised if your gripes get ignored with a vengeance.
"yeah sure if you say so... "
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they aren't listening to you. And it doesn't mean they're completely unreasonable. You need to learn the difference between an attack and a disagreement.
Until that happens, you're going to go on feeling like you're the most put-upon person in BT fandom.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
02/25/03 10:49 PM
66.187.4.132
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"I have spoken to folks who have used and own the product...so nice try friend."
And your automatic assumption is that I have not.
Additionally, you completely ignored what I actually said.
Again....
I said, if you want a breakdown of why the product costs so much, go speak to the people that produced it. They could probably give you more information on why it cost so much than you're even equipped to handle.
(Note: I'm not saying you're not equipped to handle the data, I'm just saying there's gobs of data out there, some of it more useful, some of it less so. And only a madman would really need to assimilate it all.)
Thank you for conceding the argument to me without even the benefit of an interesting debate.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
|
Chas
02/25/03 10:52 PM
66.187.4.132
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"And your attacking folks who speak out about things they feel need changing is any better? "
Let me state this, again, for the record.
When
I
do
not
agree
with
you
it
does
not
mean
that
what
I
say
is
an
attack.
In short. I am disagreeing with you, and telling you that if you really want a better product, give constructive feedback
Otherwise, you aren't helping ANYTHING. Except giving yourself a nice catharsis session.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/25/03 10:54 PM
66.187.4.132
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"Pen and Paper or not, it's still a miniatures game... "
Bzzt! Wrong answer.
BattleTech is NOT a miniatures game.
It's a pen-and-paper board game with a rules extension to allow for the use of miniatures.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/25/03 11:10 PM
66.187.4.132
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"I have been attacked by you, Chas, Chunga, Warner and the rest of cliche that you run with"
You've been attacked by Warner.
Guess who got himself banned from here.
You've been attacked by Bob.
Guess who got himself banned from here.
You've been attacked by Chunga.
Guess who got himself banned from here.
You attacked me at one time.
Guess who got himself banned from here.
I haven't attacked you. Face it.
I've disagreed with you. NOTHING MORE.
Please stop purporting that:
A) You're a victim of unprovoked attacks.
You've been as blatantly unpleasant as possible to just about EVERYONE here. And attacked others on numerous occasions. As well as pushing the outer boundaries of what is acceptable in terms of what is NOT an attack.
B) That nothing is being done when you're attacked.
It has.
C) That I'm attacking you.
I'm not. I am disagreeing with you. And, because you have a penchant for twisting words, I'm doing it in no uncertain terms.
Again, if you can't handle that, the problem is with you, not with me.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/25/03 11:11 PM
66.187.4.132
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"No Change of heart Bob...I am sick of the company line and the lack of listening by those that claim to be in the know... "
Give us more than "This sucks. Fix it." And we might actually listen to you. Otherwise, we've already exhausted the possibilities of such a limited vocabulary selection.
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Chas
02/25/03 11:18 PM
66.187.4.132
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" think they could have done what they have in the current set and charged less if they really thought it through"
What could they have done to reduce the costs?
* Remove the map. Okay, that's one thing that could probably have shaved at least a buck or two off. I've produced some of Lance's maps before. I know how expensive they can get. (I have several banner-sized versions that Lance himself brought me during his GenCon stop-overs. They're expensive as *EXPLETIVE DELETED*.)
Good. That's part of what I meant by "constructive".
Also, how could they keep the page count down?
---
"High necked fashions just became the IN thing here on Tharkad."
-- Morgan Kell
-- Grave Covenant
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Cadet
02/25/03 11:22 PM
206.102.33.120
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In reply to:
Also, how could they keep the page count down?
Get rid of the filler art. Not only would it lower the page count (and costs) but it would remove the cost of paying for the art.
Does not play well with others.
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Chunga
02/25/03 11:26 PM
24.211.11.205
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Nice dodge of the question.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/25/03 11:36 PM
24.211.11.205
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Because he can't actually answer Chas' questions.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/25/03 11:46 PM
68.21.149.113
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If you say so...nice attempt at flaming and trolling.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 11:49 PM
68.21.149.113
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Did you read what I posted? BASIC AND SIMPLE...keep it all level 1 no level 2 rules save that for them buying the BMR-R etc...
Color art isn't needed beyond the cover of the book and the flyer in the box set talking about other BT products with catch pharses about how the new player can expand into the game etc...
Things like that...funny I have been saying this all along...no matter.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 11:50 PM
68.21.149.113
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Card board counters that are proxies for miniatures makes it a miniatures game...seen folks using them with out the hex maps LONG before there were rules for using inches and such...so nice try your self...
Please play again.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 11:53 PM
68.21.149.113
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Why debate something with you when you won't rein in the clique that is your buddies and keep them in order? Why would I want to debate something when I know damn good and well that your friends will attack the second they get the chance and post the same over used crap about how we should be greatful and happy to have what we have over and over again...
What I assume is that you seem quick to tell me to behave but aren't so quick to do the same publicly to your buddies...but I think we have had this convo before and it got us now where.
You want to debate then rein them in.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/25/03 11:57 PM
68.21.149.113
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You know it's amazes me...if you can't handle the negative complaints then why bother asking the fans what they think or how they feel?
You are going to get ALL sides and if ignore one part you are showing a bais towards what you want to hear...you say you don't like the complaining and the it sucks...well sometimes that is the best way to sum up something and the easist way to get the point across, and then if asked for more most folks will give. Just as I did over why I don't like the price of the box set...but once again the same folks who attack ANYONE anytime they complain or point in any manner what they don't like are right back at it again...and you wonder why folks are upset and arguing...but hey what to us fans know...after all we should be happy to have the game since if it was for FP we would have nothing...(rolls eyes)...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:06 AM
68.21.149.113
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Why should I stop what works for your clique of friends?
And yes you have attack me, everytime I post that I don't like some and here is why you and your buddies are quick to tell to shut up and be happy I have something to complain about...
Disagree is that you don't make snide comments etc...disagree is actually trying to see the other side, yet none of you seem to do that...but again I think we have covered this point enough.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:09 AM
68.21.149.113
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Perfect example of an attack, but wait you call it disagree...
I have given you points to look at, I have also given ideas on HOW to fix things but again I am told by you or your buddies that I should be happy to have something to complain about because the alternative is not to have the game at all etc...
How about you go back and READ things again and set aside the attitude and all that goes with it and actually read the posting, I think I gave some excellent ideas on how they could have done the box set and how they could do wider levels of advertisments and on the storyline I think that has been covered by lots of folks with their fan fiction and my idea threads that seem to have a lot of info that could be used, but is ignored...you want input and comments then start looking at the boards it's there.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:11 AM
68.21.149.113
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Again nice flame and yes you are attacking me...see rule number 3...oh wait, that means I am now attacking you...oh...darn it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:11 AM
68.21.149.113
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If you say so...nice attempt at flaming and trolling and wonderful attempt at starting more crap...
Hey Chas how about getting Chunga to stop with this kind of crap...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:14 AM
68.21.149.113
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I am not telling you anything, I am basing it off of how you act and thus if that's wrong then how about doing something to change that notion for the better...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/26/03 11:33 AM
66.84.240.243
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And yet you've still not answered Chas' question.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/26/03 12:06 PM
66.84.240.243
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What? Asking you to explain your postion is crap?
Chas said this "And the only way you've even addressed my points is by saying "you are wrong". Yet you didn't say which point I was wrong about, or why I was wrong.
Address the issue, stop instigating." and you've completely ignored it. Instead you've screamed "STOP PERSECUTING ME."
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:14 PM
68.21.149.180
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I have answered his questions and it's clear that you have not read any of the other posting. So please take your flame attempts elsewhere.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:15 PM
68.21.149.180
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What are you talking about?
Again nice flame attempt but give that you are not making any sense you failed to get your point across...
Sorry that you wasted your time.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/26/03 12:22 PM
66.84.240.243
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You don't understand when someone asks you to explain your position?
That does explain a lot actually.
Chunga
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Chunga
02/26/03 12:24 PM
66.84.240.243
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In reply to:
disagree is actually trying to see the other side, yet none of you seem to do that
That's actually a negotiation. We are not negotiating.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:25 PM
68.21.149.180
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Once more just for you, like I told Chas, READ the postings again, I have given suggestion how they can do more advertistments and I also gave ideas on HOW they could have made a decent box set for less, how about you stop with the attacks and slams and actually read posting before you comment, then you would see that I have answered Chas's questions.
So far about the only thing you have explained is that you are doing your best to try and flame this thread into another flame war...can't you offer something more constructive to this beside snide remarks and BS?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:28 PM
68.21.149.180
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First Chunga you are NOT FanPro. So how about you leave the wishful thinking at the front door.
And if you can't take the time to see the other sides points or even entertain them, then why are you talking part in this? Oh...I forgot you are here to attack anyone who isn't posting nice and happy thoughts about the game.
Well you are doing a good job at it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Chunga
02/26/03 12:31 PM
66.84.240.243
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It's interesting how you will respond to each one of our posts telling us exactly how we're flaming you, but when we ask for explanations, you say they're elsewhere in the thread and it's our job to find them. It shows that you have more interest in finding persecution than actually discussing your ideas.
Chunga
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Karagin
02/26/03 12:34 PM
68.21.149.180
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Once again, I have posted my ideas on how they could have done the box set better and charged less for it. I am sorry that you can't or won't read those posting and I am sorry that all you want to do is argue over how you know better then everyone else.
And yes I am pointing out your attacks so it's clear to all what your goal is and thus the damage can be lessen.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Vapor
02/28/03 11:29 AM
202.128.69.122
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Personally, I don't understand why this post is still a hot topic. Karagin has explained his thoughts on how costs could be lessened, Chas and others have explained their thoughts on why costs are the way they are. Why is everyone still bitching about this?
"For those about to rock, we salute you." - AC DC
"The evil that can come, from the heart of a man, must be answered in kind 'till it disappears, and we're safe." - Kansas
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Karagin
02/28/03 01:16 PM
65.129.166.50
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That is a good question...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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