Karagin
01/26/04 08:58 AM
195.238.39.137
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Comparing BT to DnD doesn't work - different game cultures.
How so? They are both games driven by sourcebooks and supported materials and such. How can they be different given the level of cross over that players of each have with the other. It is hard not to find a D&D player who hasn't at one time or another played BT and vise versa.
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I would guess the total numbers of books sold vs. the total number printed, or something similar.
Okay these would be interesting to see and compare.
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I would also guess Chris Trossen has access to such numbers, while you and I do not. Or do you, in fact, have access to profit/loss and published/sold numbers on BT products straight from FanPro/FASA? A sample from a few game stores and personal experience doesn't count.
Personal experience doesn't count? I see. So going into a know chain of hobby stores and seeing what they have and don't have isn't a good way to judge things...okay. And for someone to say they don't sell and leave it at that is better then given an explanation that explains things and tells us why they don't sell and with said offering maybe someone could come up with a way to make them sell better since again I point other game companies seem to have no problem with the pregen secanario books and adventures selling to the fans. So do you see where I am going with this and coming from here?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/26/04 09:20 AM
147.160.1.5
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I think it was a case of jumping the gun. Just seeing a Jihad/MWDA thread is enough to make most people cringe for fear of flames. If a mod talks to you, let us know in this thread.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
01/26/04 01:27 PM
147.160.1.5
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I'll open with this: WoB will start the Jihad when it is vastly outnumbered, and the force ratio will not change in its favor.
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First WoB goes from being a splinter group to this mega player in the IS with Uber abilites in a matter of a few years, sorry but that is not likely even in the BT universe.
Why do you think WoB was a small splinter group? It had enough clout to take Terra - both militarily, and enough pull in Comstar. That's not just a little splinter group.
Also, you said "a few years." Exactly how many years was it from WoBs founding to the Jihad?
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Second, their army was NO WHERE near the size of the ComGuard even with the Defections
In 3062 (FM:Comstar), correct. My bad. WoB had 10 divisions (20 regiments), Comstar had 50 divisions.
In 3067, Comstar would loose 4 divisions and have a couple more roughed up in the FCCW, which inspired some defections to WoB. More importantly, there were plenty of Comguards ready to talk to their old WoB buddies. Comguards were not impressed with Precentor Martial Victor Steiner-Davion using the Comguards in the Civil War.
However, the 3067 WoB strength is unknown, just the 3062 strength is known. With Terra in WoB's possession for at least 5 more years (plus a decade-plus in the Jihad), that's a non-trivial advantage. See below.
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WoB didn't the forces to take on Terra's defenses so they used other methods
WoB military units were certainly present, per the Fall of Terra SB. However, yes, WoB did not have the strength to directly conquer Terra. Good thing for WoB, too, or else it might've damaged all that industrial capacity.
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Fourth, having Terra gives them roughly a dozen or so factories to make weapons and mechs. Fine add that to their ONE planet in FWL and you really don't have the setup for much of anything.
A dozen or so factories on Terra is about the same as a whole House. I mean, just in sheer numbers of factories, that's more mech factories than the Capellans had in 3025. When you begin to touch on the industrial capacity of a high Star League-era military factory...
In the late 2400s, with much more primitive industrial facilities than WoB/Terra has, the Hegemony was able to build 5000 Banshees in a decade (while building other mech designs simultaneously). WoB has the finest Star League-era factories of Terra. Terra gives WoB a planet that was undamaged by the Succession Wars, a technologically literate and capable population that is about 5 times what the Clans had pre-Invasion, and a whole industrial base on one planet, not scattered across 30-odd planets like the Clans' home worlds. Terra had so much industrial plenty and technological competency that, according to the Comstar SB or Fall of Terra (I ferget which), every personal car was fusion powered.
In the end, WoB isn't going to have a whole House's military, and when facing 5 Houses and the Clans in conventional warfare, it's screwed.
However, to begin with, it's spent time asking its personnel to keep touch with all its old buddies in the Comguards ("Man, I'm stationed in the ass end of the universe, and it's on humanity's homeworld. Where are you stationed? It's gotta be better than here. You're in Fort Focht on Waythehelloutthere? Fort Focht...that's at latitude 163, longitude 33, right? Nevermind, forget I asked, forget I asked. It's not like I was getting coordinates to flyby and drop a nuke on you or anything. Ha-Ha.")
WoB, of course, also has access to foreign factories - it can place orders for equipment like any customer, either as WoB or under an assumed identity. I'll be interested to see what the final force numbers of WoB is when the Jihad kicks off.
Also, WoB has a lot more than one planet in the FWL. It has a fraction of the FWL's whole budget - it was skimming money out of the budget with Fake Thomas's aid. This enables WoB to buy equipment (and hire mercs) from all over the Inner Sphere, giving it an effectively much larger industrial base.
I'll conclude with this: WoB will start the Jihad when it is vastly outnumbered, and the force ratio will not change in its favor.
Perhaps you could give us some pointers on how a small BT military force could inspire warfare across the Inner Sphere, Karagin, in the hopes of knocking humanity back into a new stone age.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Silenced_Sonix
01/26/04 02:03 PM
168.209.97.34
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Thank God, somebody who talks sense!
Cray just gave us all a very detailed description of exactly what WoB did and did not do, though I am sure many of you (me included) are still "disgruntled" at the bungled way in which first FASA, and now WizKids and FanPro handled the situation. By having semi-pointless arguments and getting our blood up about something we cannot do anything about, is sheer foolishness.
I know I am not a mod or anything like that, but I would discourage flames - I have first-hand experience of how badly wrong something like that usually ends.
Peace out, and everybody just CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLL.....
Evolve or Die
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Nightward
01/27/04 12:49 AM
203.134.42.195
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Aff. In my own over-zealous attempt to defend the sacred peace of the board, I over-reacted myself.
However, my points still stand. Keep it pleasant, gentlemen.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
01/27/04 11:21 AM
217.26.84.5
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Once again I ask you since you have again skipped it, WHERE did they get their man power from to pilot all of the mechs?
Even with defections and such, they still don't have the manpower to come close to being the threat we are led to believe.
Yes they hold Terra and yes they have SL factories, but again I ask you where are they getting the funding to actually do everything they are doing and not have some one trip over their little game of hide the mech regiment? Yes they have some money from the FWL...but last time offically anything was said about their FWL holdings was to list only Gibson and that was it. So again where is it that they have half or more of the FWL supporting them?
Even with all the money they can skim from the FWL and from their HPG stations, it still doesn't cover the cost of feeding, transporting, paying, clothing, maintaining and basic support for the army they are building. Point of fact, the Project Phoniex TRO shows that ComStar was aware of what the WoB was doing, ie the buying of all the mechs...now are you saying that they didn't pass that one to their allies or make moves to stop or monitor further these things?
Yes ComStar lost units but I doubt very much if every swing dick in the units that left ComStar went over to the WoB.
As for them being a splinter group again I point you to the ComStar Sourcebook and the FM ComStar. As well as how they are written in several of the novels, granted that the novels aren't cannon to the point that it's like opening a sourcebook.
So can you please tell us how WoB got it's manpower to come close to being able to have the needed numbers to even launch their Jihad?
How about you show us Cray how a small unit can afford to do all of what TPTB have claimed WoB has done in the last 10 years (plus or minus 5 years) and not have bells going off in the intelligence communites of all of the House and ComStar....
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/27/04 11:31 AM
217.26.84.5
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Aff. In my own over-zealous attempt to defend the sacred peace of the board, I over-reacted myself.
However, my points still stand. Keep it pleasant, gentlemen.
So far things are civil. With the minor expection of one posting and that wasn't turned into anything beyond the intial posting by either of us. Yes the topic is touchy and yes Cray is doing well on defending the MWDA side and yes I am doing my best to point out the areas that a lot of folks bring up and areas I my self have problems with. Now maybe I am applying way to much real life thinking into the game universe, but given that up until recently the game hadn't pushed the borders of believbilty to the point that they 100% break and leave folks wondering as to what happen.
I am sorry if you feel Cray and I are not being Civil, but I do say this is a lot calmer and more respectful then any of the heated debeats between Bob and my self too name one set of Flame Wars that have happen around here.
I am doing my best not over react and so far I think I have done well on that front. Now if I sound like I am being curt on the topic, then I am sorry but I am trying to get my point over in limited time span with limited means do to where I am at currently.
I will work on not being curt to the point it hurts to read it but I stand by what I have said before on the MWDA topic, it's poorly thought out and badly protrayed plot line.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/27/04 02:55 PM
147.160.1.5
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Once again I ask you since you have again skipped it, WHERE did they get their man power from to pilot all of the mechs?
Oops, overlooked that question.
Well, WoB got the manpower to man 10 divisions when...well, the 10 divisions defected from Comstar. That gave WoB a core of veteran troops to train new recruits, and WoB has some excellent training facilities (WAM, Sandhurst, etc.) Given the ~15 years between WoB's formation and the Jihad, it has more than enough time to double its forces, double them again, and double them again, figuring on a 5-year training cycle for fresh mechwarriors. (They don't actually have 80 divisions when the Jihad begins...I don't think...but I'm just giving an example of mobilization. WoB has the time and a core of vets to do it.)
Further, WoB has recruitment offices everywhere - it IS an organization with millions of employees operating postal and courier services, civic aid, and the high profile HPGs in the FWL, CC, and elsewhere. All those offices are great places to be on the lookout for raw recruits or veteran mechwarriors down on their luck and looking for a change. Offices on Galatea would be able to filter and pickup all those mechwarriors from failed merc units. (What's the number? 90% of merc units fail in the first year? 2/3?)
Finally, they have Terra, population 6 billion. What's it take to man 100 mech regiments? 10,800 mechwarriors? You don't need any of those recruiting facilities in the FWL or elsewhere if you tap the Terran labor pool. Finding 1 million recruits on a planet that has its telecommunications and media controlled by WoB should be easy. The US military is able to get several million employees out of a much smaller labor pool, yes? And, hey, WoB inherited a Comstar-run government that's older than US - Terrans have been addled with Blake's message for over two hundred years...
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Yes they hold Terra and yes they have SL factories, but again I ask you where are they getting the funding to actually do everything they are doing and not have some one trip over their little game of hide the mech regiment? Yes they have some money from the FWL...but last time offically anything was said about their FWL holdings was to list only Gibson and that was it. So again where is it that they have half or more of the FWL supporting them?
...half or more of the FWL is not supporting them, but Gibson is a trivial holding in the FWL compared to WoB's other FWL asset: the Fake Thomas Marik. WoB was getting a percentage of the FWL's budget. The central government's annual budget of taxes from ~400 worlds was being skimmed by WoB, an act allowed and hidden by the Fake Thomas Marik. (This ended when the Fake Thomas Marik found WoB was taking close to double what he had aggreed to, IIRC. But that ended in, IIRC, 3067.)
Now, you have to admit that's not "some money." That's a whole lot of cash. Figure the FWL (Average income ~2000 C-bills, per Marik SB), population ~1 trillion, pays 10% of their wages as taxes to the central government (Americans should be so lucky...we're up to 30% between local and federal, I think). Figure WoB is skimming 1% of that. That's 2 trillion C-bills going into WoB coffers annually.
For the sake of argument, price out 50 "divisions" (100 regiments) of 25 million C-bill, 100-ton, XL-powered assault mechs: 270 billion C-bills, or 13.5% of the total budget.
(WoB won't have 100 regiments of assault mechs, but the point stands: it doesn't take much skimming from the FWL budget to get a lot of cash, enough to replace whole House militaries.)
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As for them being a splinter group again I point you to the ComStar Sourcebook and the FM ComStar.
A group that controls Terra, runs all the HPGs in the FWL, some HPGs in the Periphery and Capellan Confederation, and has ~20 mech regiments is probably not what you'd call a splinter group, Karagin. (I'd still call them a splinter group, but we seem to be using the terms differently. They splintered off of Comstar. A very big splinter, to be sure, with fully 20% of the initial strength of Comstar.)
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How about you show us Cray how a small unit can afford to do all of what TPTB have claimed WoB has done in the last 10 years (plus or minus 5 years) and not have bells going off in the intelligence communites of all of the House and ComStar....
Have you considered that many people are well aware of WoB's growing strength?
I suggest once again considering that WoB does not have a lot of "fatwa" e-mails flying around its organization. Sure, a lot of its personnel mutter blasphemy this and heresy that, and put sugar in the gas tanks of Comstar cars, but what naughty things has WoB done to make itself look Eeeveelll in the eyes of many intel groups? Expanding a military is not itself Evil.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Nightward
01/27/04 10:48 PM
203.134.41.99
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For what it's worth, Karagin, I completely agree with you.
Unfortunately I also tend to be somewhat sarcastic and short with people when discussing things I loathe with all my being, so I find it's better to stay away from commenting on ideas etc that I actively dislike. That's why my only contribution to this thread was factual information rather than my opinions 
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Karagin
01/29/04 02:01 AM
217.26.84.5
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He gave his idea of what they did...so far we don't know all the facts about the events and thus everything is still full of holes and problems.
Again I point out that the issues of man power are ignored when this topic comes out, the full finanical issues are covered by those who defend the MWDA setting with comments like "Well they have Terra and the money they got from the FWL." Yet nothing is even mentioned of all the cost of the mechs, the ammo, the fuel, the transportation of the troops and the mechs and all the other things that go with the problems of building army and given that UNTIL they took Terra they had to do all of it sercet and even then they still had to keep a large chunk of their stuff hidden and way from the prying else of the IS and other groups.
So what Cray has given us is a brief outline of things and NOTHING with concrete facts that explains away all the holes and problems of the Jihad and WoB's rise from splinter group that fought among it's self to Uber power.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/29/04 02:10 AM
217.26.84.5
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Again I point out that even with the money from the FWL and their HPGs things are not goiing to be as simple as you are trying to make them. The cost alone of keeping the mechs they have running and supplied is going eat a lot of that money and then the need to keep all of their stuff OUT of the prying eyes of the IS Intell Agencies is going to cut into that pool of money. Along with basic daily needs of the troops and other members of WoB the money won't be there.
10 Divisions...okay that still doesn't give them the numbers to man all of the mechs they are said to be buying and it still doesn't give them the numbers to even come close to doing anything. So again I ask where are these troops coming from? Do the WoBs have iron wombs like the Clans? Or someother cloning factory?
Even recuriting and such doesn't give you large numbers over night. It takes anywhere from 6 months to a year to train a soldier fully in their MOS, I don't see that changing even in BT's time frame. And given that sites to train troops cost lots of money there goes another drain on the uberfund of the WoB.
So far I am not convinced by any of these ideas you have put out to defend the MWDA plot line and while I do thank you for the attempt, it's just to full of holes and inconsitites for me. So this in my opinion is another showing of FASA/Wk/FP droping the ball and going off half cocked with a story line.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/29/04 02:14 AM
217.26.84.5
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I am trying not to turn things into something it's not. You know full well my stand on this topic. 
I am just asking for folks to not blindly stumble into the MWDA setting with out first asking a lot of questions and making sure that TPTB know that we the fans aren't going to blindly follow them into something that falls flat and leave more questions then it does answers and causes us to lose the game as we know it in favor a collectiable based he who spends the most wins kind of game.
I am sorry if my questions are not what is wanted to be heard but I like others feel that we have gotten to the point that the BT community is something that can support several story lines and need not have just one.
So thank you for watching out and coming forward to prevent a flame war and all. Best to stop things befroe they start.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/29/04 08:21 AM
147.160.1.5
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The cost alone of keeping the mechs they have running and supplied is going eat a lot of that money
No, it's not. Do you want me to break out numbers from a Merc handbook?
The annual maintenance cost of 1000 (one thousand) mech regiments about be about 1.2 billion C-bills (assuming 1000 CB/mech/month; I think it's actually 250 CB/month), which is pocket change for any major planetary government. The annual wages of 108,000 mechwarriors would be about 10 billion C-bills but, again, that's pocket change.
Ammo expenditures in training might be expensive, but figuring a ton of LRM-Artemis ammo (expensive stuff) per month per mech out of 100 regiments (still more than WoB has), that's only 6.5 billion CB.
WoB has far less than 1000 mech regiments. A more reasonable number of mech regiments (50) would slash maintainence, labor, and ammo expenditures to just 4 billion CB a year out of potentially the better part of a 2 trillion CB budget (that's 2 trillion CB if the FWL's average income and tax rates are minimized, and WoB's percentage of the take is reduced to 1/5th canon).
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10 Divisions...okay that still doesn't give them the numbers to man all of the mechs they are said to be buying and it still doesn't give them the numbers to even come close to doing anything. So again I ask where are these troops coming from? Do the WoBs have iron wombs like the Clans? Or someother cloning factory?
...
Even recuriting and such doesn't give you large numbers over night. Even recuriting and such doesn't give you large numbers over night. It takes anywhere from 6 months to a year to train a soldier fully in their MOS, I don't see that changing even in BT's time frame. And given that sites to train troops cost lots of money there goes another drain on the uberfund of the WoB.
In the following reposted reply, note that I already have addressed:
1) Time to mobilize the WoB troops (~15 years, not "over night")
2) Available recruits (6 billion people exposed to Blakist doctrines for ~250 years)
3) Training facilities
4) Training times (I allowed 5 years, not 6mo-1yr)
Well, WoB got the manpower to man 10 divisions when...well, the 10 divisions defected from Comstar. That gave WoB a core of veteran troops to train new recruits, and WoB has some excellent training facilities (WAM, Sandhurst, etc.) Given the ~15 years between WoB's formation and the Jihad, it has more than enough time to double its forces, double them again, and double them again, figuring on a 5-year training cycle for fresh mechwarriors. (They don't actually have 80 divisions when the Jihad begins...I don't think...but I'm just giving an example of mobilization. WoB has the time and a core of vets to do it.)
Further, WoB has recruitment offices everywhere - it IS an organization with millions of employees operating postal and courier services, civic aid, and the high profile HPGs in the FWL, CC, and elsewhere. All those offices are great places to be on the lookout for raw recruits or veteran mechwarriors down on their luck and looking for a change. Offices on Galatea would be able to filter and pickup all those mechwarriors from failed merc units. (What's the number? 90% of merc units fail in the first year? 2/3?)
Finally, they have Terra, population 6 billion. What's it take to man 100 mech regiments? 10,800 mechwarriors? You don't need any of those recruiting facilities in the FWL or elsewhere if you tap the Terran labor pool. Finding 1 million recruits on a planet that has its telecommunications and media controlled by WoB should be easy. The US military is able to get several million employees out of a much smaller labor pool, yes? And, hey, WoB inherited a Comstar-run government that's older than US - Terrans have been addled with Blake's message for over two hundred years...
These are nonrhetorical questions I'd like you to answer, Karagin, or this debate ends:
1) How old is the Word of Blake when it launches the Jihad?
2) How many years has the Word of Blake held Terra by the time it launches the Jihad?
3) In your opinion, if you have a lightly brainwashed recruitment pool of 1 billion people, and as many years as WoB has held Terra, how many recruits can you acquire and train in their MOS?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/29/04 10:18 AM
62.128.179.2
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Funny thing here...you say it won't cost that much, yet using the same sourcebook you listed states that Merc units come and go on a daily bases.
I think you need to review your facts again and look at things from the view point of some out side of the loop, which 99% fo the fans are doing.
We have a group that was less then 15 years ago a splinter of ComStar that goes from that to IS power house over night and yes it is over night given that they have done MORE then anyone from really next to nothing for a base of operations and while the FWL has helped them, even that relationship is very strained and has it's share of problems.
Having Terra DOSE NOT GIVE THEM UNLIMITED MANPOWER. I am so sick of hearing that defense for this Jihad crap. ComStar held Terra and yet their military force wasn't ubered out with millions of troops and I don't recall hearing anyone use that line of thinking for them...So why does this come up now?
But again the same answers that TPTB give isn't adding anything new to this topic. And the areas we are covering are among the same ones that have come up before and will keep coming up as long as folks don't buy into the give thinking on this subject. Sorry if holding the folks writing this stuff to a high standard is asking for a lot.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/29/04 11:29 AM
147.160.1.5
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I am so sick of hearing that defense for this Jihad crap. ComStar held Terra and yet their military force wasn't ubered out with millions of troops
WoB doesn't have millions of troops.
WoB isn't a power house.
WoB started with 20 regiments of troops, all from the Comguards.
WoB is going to stay small.
By now, just by watching CNN, you should be able to understand how a few hundred pissy little terrorists can tie up tens of thousands of troops. Scale that up to 20 terrorist mech regiments with hundreds of nuclear weapons. Now start a bunch of wars that do not involve the terrorists while the terrorists operate.
Further, if you want to discuss the expense of maintaining militaries, put some numbers behind your arguments rather than citing "most merc units fold" generalities. All five of the House sourcebooks are available on .pdf if you want economic and population data, and I'll be happy to give you standard wages, maintenance expenses, and hardware costs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Gangrene
01/29/04 08:46 PM
24.6.228.14
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Quote:
2) Available recruits (6 billion people exposed to Blakist doctrines for ~250 years)
Who apparently have no wills of their own and like having beliefs imposed on them, contrary to what has happened in all of human history.
The treatment of Terra in the storyline is probably the stupidest part of the whole thing. The Jihad should be by Terrans against WoB, who after tasting freedom for a short time should be more than willing to die for their planet against the religious freaks (especially against the religious freaks, considering its TERRA).
Gangrene
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tgsofgc
01/30/04 01:39 AM
67.4.199.183
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Cray makes an excellent point in the US recruiting section. The US army gathers a huge base of military recruits from a smaller base population. The fact that the government is only set up to reinforce these ideologies of nationalism, patriotism, and service to the government can only mean better results. Also the fact that its been around and stable certainly helps cement the nationalism, as apposed to the marches or rassalhague which while having feelings of nationalism or sub faction loyalty largely don't back their controlling governments (such as Davion, Liao, Steiner, Kurita). This is more like going to New Avalon and try to raise a Davion militia.... except the labor pool is larger and has largely remained untapped for military concerns except for the production facilities in use since Comstar (or before that the Hegemony/Kerensky/Amaris/Cameron) controlled the planet.
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Who apparently have no wills of their own and like having beliefs imposed on them, contrary to what has happened in all of human history.
To this I have a few things...
1. an equally soundbity comment: History is written by the winners.
2. propaganda is extremely effective.... it is used continually in the free world in advertising as well as military training. If we are such rugged individualist why does the US and UK governments spend gobs of money on basic training meant to temper individuallity and help new recruits to better respect not only an absolute chain of command but unquestionable loyalty. People are pack hunters.... we do as we have always done hang out in groups, social prejudices against this (largely a new developement, see protestant revolution) only complicate matters... they don't change them.
I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used.
-Commander Nathaniel Klepper,
Avanti's Angels, 3058
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Nightward
01/30/04 02:08 AM
203.134.47.31
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I feel obliged to point out:
"...Maybe it's the speed of their expansion. My intelligence believe that increasing their operational strength to 10 Divisions is at the upper end of what they could do in four years, even with defections from the Com Guard and Thomas Blake's generousity..."
FM: ComStar, p5.
The World of Blake never got 10 full Divisions from the aCom Guard. They got some Level IIIs (~Batallion) intact, but I don't believe any Level IV (Division) units wholesale.
The Word of Blake only controls transmissions through House Marik, parts of the Periphery, and perhaps the Capellan Confederation. Although exact numbers of the units used for the Jihad haven't been released...I really don't like it.
The only advantage Word of Blake ever had was that they got most of ROM, who couldn't handle the fact that their jb was being changed from Minor Deity/Internal Security/Intelligence to simply Internal Security/Intelligence.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Cray
01/30/04 08:00 AM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
Who apparently have no wills of their own and like having beliefs imposed on them, contrary to what has happened in all of human history.
That's not true. WoB left Terrans (mostly) alone, opened up some new (mech) factory jobs, and recruited those interested in "travel and adventure in the Word of Blake militia."
After all, WoB doesn't need 6 billion screaming Terrans to achieve its goals. A few thousand will do fine.
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The treatment of Terra in the storyline is probably the stupidest part of the whole thing. The Jihad should be by Terrans against WoB, who after tasting freedom for a short time should be more than willing to die for their planet against the religious freaks (especially against the religious freaks, considering its TERRA).
You obviously don't have "The Fall of Terra." WoB more-or-less left Terrans alone. They reduced outside contact a bit, censored news a bit, but mostly left Terrans alone, one of the wisest things WoB ever did. Terrans hardly had any clue they were in the grips of "religious fanatics," because day-to-day government was still being run by the secular Bureau of Terran Affairs. WoB influenced policy a bit here and there.
So, like any large mob of people who weren't directly affected by changes in leadership, Terrans shrugged and went about their business. WoB wasn't bothering THEM after all.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
01/30/04 08:03 AM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
The only advantage Word of Blake ever had was that they got most of ROM, who couldn't handle the fact that their jb was being changed from Minor Deity/Internal Security/Intelligence to simply Internal Security/Intelligence.
Do you have a book/page reference for that?
Though that's good news for WoB. It certainly explains operations like Eriynes, which sent the Taurians into a homocidal attack on the Federated Suns. ("That asteroid that just wiped out your capitol? The DAVIONS did it!")
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Karagin
01/30/04 11:21 AM
62.128.179.2
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Let's see...ComStar changes...opens the planet up to everyone...then loses the planet to WoB. Who uses never gas to take out the ROM HQ, and has a few other not so nice ideas on how to deal with ComGuard units that didn't give up without fighting.
Sorry Cray but the idea that WoB can rely on Terra for it's unlimited manpower is not washing through. Again the question remans where is WoB getting the manpower to flesh out it's Army...we know they didn't get 10 full Division of mechs thus that part is washed down the drain so where did the man power come from?
Mercs? Maybe but even if they picked up every down on their luck unit, that might get 2 divisions at the most. And some would have noticed that stunt fast.
Sorry but this and the money issue is the major sore point of this whole Jihad story plot and to me personally it shows that someone in FASA and now FP/WK either didn't think the fans would notice things like this or care, but it seems that they were incorrect in their thinking.
The two reason above and some of the others I mentioned before are among the top 10 reasons I don't support or consider the Jihad storyline as canon and I personal very happy to see Randal doing other projects like the War of 3039 and such. Seems that the point was gotten across about the fans not 100% supporting the Jihad stoy line.
Once more the lack of believe ( and I do mean by BT standards) anwsers to the WoB manpower and money issues are really hurting the whole storyline and causing folks to really question the whole thing. This I think is a good thing since it keeps everyone honest and shows that BT has support.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/30/04 11:32 AM
62.128.179.3
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[
WoB doesn't have millions of troops.
WoB isn't a power house.
WoB started with 20 regiments of troops, all from the Comguards.
WoB is going to stay small.
By now, just by watching CNN, you should be able to understand how a few hundred pissy little terrorists can tie up tens of thousands of troops. Scale that up to 20 terrorist mech regiments with hundreds of nuclear weapons. Now start a bunch of wars that do not involve the terrorists while the terrorists operate.
I understand that a few can hold up a whole army, but even then they are not launching massive attacks and causing whole cities to die or commo to go out...
And yes WoB Has millions of troops, given that they launch attacks all over the place in the area around Terra. Sorry but that does take a lot of troops and a lot planning.
Small? Sorry going from one planet (Gisbon) to having that one, Terra and puppet governments on several Chaos March planets isn't staying small at all.
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Further, if you want to discuss the expense of maintaining militaries, put some numbers behind your arguments rather than citing "most merc units fold" generalities. All five of the House sourcebooks are available on .pdf if you want economic and population data, and I'll be happy to give you standard wages, maintenance expenses, and hardware costs.
No need to posting anything since you or I or anyone can look in the Merc FM or any of the books that list the PRICE of a mech or vehicle and see that these things aren't cheap and with the CANON facts that WoB is buying first run productions of whole series of mechs the cost goes up and up, and then when you added in the cost of fuel for the Dropships to move the mechs and the cost of feeding the crews etc...again the cost is still eating away at their uberfund.
So we are still back to square one, the cost of everything WoB needs to get their Jihad off the ground should have them broke and no way of supporting anything. Now if we are to believe your take on things that this is all planned out and everything is taken in account, then why would a group who wants to rule rush into some thing that won't give them that? Could it be that maybe the whole of WoB is still rifled with in-fighting? No wait that can't be...
I am sorry but even with your arguement against this the question of cost and such hurts the storyline of the Jihad as it's written since we don't see any other house magically getting hundreds of new mechs and pilots to use them over night ( and by that I mean with in less the a decad Game time).
So I think it's safe to say that some of this storyline still hasn't been thought through fully, if at all.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Karagin
01/30/04 11:41 AM
62.128.179.3
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Uhmm no sorry things don't work as nice as Cray made it sound. The US military takes in 1000s of folks and ends up keeping 400 or so of them, and that is BEFORE basic training even starts. Figure about 20% of that 400 (per service) fail basic training or Advanced Training and that leaves you with roughly 250 folks going into the active side of the armed forces. Some of the folks who go in are going into the Reserves or Guard, thus are part time soldiers and while they can be called up that also means something else just as important can be shut down do to no one there to run it...and given that in BT time both men and women are in all branches and arms of the military kind leaves the work force depleted.
250 bodies...that's no where near enough to flesh out the regiments that WoB seems to have mechs for and it still doesn't come close to giving them seasoned troops as all of the current text of the MWDA website suggests that they used in their Jihad. So while Cray did give a good attempt to answer the question he didn't give one that actually comes close.
I don't have one that answers the question either since every source I can think of is either way to far fetched or not for BT. Clones and such are a Star Wars deal...and the idea of Iron Wombs for WoB is a possiblity but not one I see FASA going with. The merc opinion is a good one but still it leaves the loop hole of folks like Wolfnet and the other Intel groups finding out, someone would notice the hiring of lots of down their luck units.
And the whole cost of raise, training, housing, feeding etc...the troops leads to the whole issue of the money and thus the cycle repeats since there have been no answers given to how WoB is fielding the cost of their whole operation and buying sprees...
So again we are back to square one.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Cray
01/30/04 12:33 PM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
Sorry Cray but the idea that WoB can rely on Terra for it's unlimited manpower is not washing through.
Well, if you're going to stick to a number of incorrect supportions about how WoB handles Terran civilians, yes, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion.
However, when you realize:
1) WoB did not launch a crackdown on Terrans (per the Fall of Terra SB)
2) WoB used its control of the media to spin the takeover of Terra favorably to the Terran public ("Nerve gas? Us. No, that was desperate last effort by Comguard hardliners. Here, we have video from security cameras...")
3) WoB only inconvenienced a Terran few tour guides who made livings off foreigners, and university profs/students who had befriended foreigners (because, let's face it, interstellar transport is so rare in the Inner Sphere only thousands of visitors could make it to Terra annually)
4) WoB opened up thousands of new jobs in military factories and planetary defense
Then you can see how WoB had no trouble recruiting the few thousand people it needed for its military.
Quote:
Again the question remans where is WoB getting the manpower to flesh out it's Army...we know they didn't get 10 full Division of mechs thus that part is washed down the drain so where did the man power come from?
Finding a few hundred mechwarriors and few thousand support personnel to fill out its military's ranks is not a hard task.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Cray
01/30/04 12:36 PM
147.160.1.5
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Quote:
And yes WoB Has millions of troops, given that they launch attacks all over the place in the area around Terra.
Give me 20 regiments and 20 of the FWL's warships and I can launch 120 raids a year. If you need millions of troops in BT to launch a lot of raids, you're doing something wrong.
Karagin, I'm just really getting this vibe you haven't accessed the updated information on how the Jihad progressed and are still operating from the first screwed up impressions Wizkids gave out. You don't seem to be allowing for the scale of involvement of other factions (like the Concordat-FS war), and seem to be assuming WoB conquers the "core" worlds of the Inner Sphere in a conventional BT fashion. And, y'know, until we get on the same wavelength about how the Jihad came about, it's not worth wasting further time in this debate.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/30/04 12:47 PM)
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Gangrene
01/30/04 01:10 PM
24.6.228.14
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Quote:
That's not true. WoB left Terrans (mostly) alone, opened up some new (mech) factory jobs, and recruited those interested in "travel and adventure in the Word of Blake militia."
After all, WoB doesn't need 6 billion screaming Terrans to achieve its goals. A few thousand will do fine.
Cray, did you pay attention in world history?
If the WOB is trying control all information flowing into and out of Terra the result is not going to be equivalent to "leaving the Terrans alone." In order to secure Terra they would have to subjegate the local population and place heavy restrictions on travel and commerce.
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You obviously don't have "The Fall of Terra."
I do, and a government change and massive rearmament does not occur without involving the local populace. As I said, this part of the story is stupid. It does not mesh with common sense and human nature at all. The fact that the authors could not figure out that nobody likes to be occupied by a foriegn power and completely wash over the Terrans as a people is proof of that.
Edited by Gangrene (01/30/04 01:22 PM)
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Cray
01/30/04 02:19 PM
147.160.1.5
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If the WOB is trying control all information flowing into and out of Terra the result is not going to be equivalent to "leaving the Terrans alone." In order to secure Terra they would have to subjegate the local population and place heavy restrictions on travel and commerce.
Now, now. We're talking about Battletech, not the real world.  
In Battletech, mech battalions and clusters conquer planets with populations of billions, and have done so since about 2900 (the Third Succession War). The Clans (especially the Jade Falcons and Jaguars) were able to use a few dozen soldiers and a few hundred administrators per planet to convert whole populations to the Clan caste society, and have a profound impact in just fifteen years. When invasions in the Third Succession War involved 5 regiments of infantry, vehicles, and mechs on one planet, wow, that some epic warfare.
You remember those days, when Hanse Davion took several tens of thousands of troops and conquered 300 billion Capellans? The Capellans, who always fought fanatically when cornered on their home worlds?
No, the conquest of Terra was nothing unusual for the BT universe. Perverse and silly by RL standards, perhaps, but that's the price paid for using playable-sized military units.
As for those gross travel lackdowns on Terra, all that was needed were controls on interstellar travel, and as limited as interstellar travel is in BT, that's not going to affect many Terrans. BT spaceports won't handled tens of millions of foreign visitors per year like RL airports - there aren't enough jumpships in the Inner Sphere to move that many people.
Beyond that, Terrans acted no differently than 99% of other conquered BT planets - the invaders didn't bother them, they didn't bother the invaders.
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and massive rearmament does not occur without involving the local populace.
"Massive" - you need to be careful with that word in BT. "Massive" rearmament in BT involves expanding a miltiary by a few thousand people, not like RL.
As for involving the local populous..."New factory openings, one thousand new jobs. Seeking welders, computer technicians, and myomer specialists. Inquire at MechTech, Inc.'s website."
Yeah, the local populous will get involved. It's not like they're working for religious fanatics, just a normal factory.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (01/30/04 02:47 PM)
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Nightward
01/30/04 06:46 PM
211.26.7.200
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The old ComStar Sourcebook goes on in agonising detail and repition about how the Com Guard largely didn't care about Anastasius Focht's reforms- due to their nature and extensive contact with the rest of the Inner Sphere, the Guard were already largely secular.
ROM, however, were vastly insulted that Comstar was being secularised and the teachings of the Blessed Blake (as interpreted by Conrad Toyama etc) were being overthrown in favour of "The HPG is just a machine. it will, in fact, still work if no-one prays to it."
By 3058, ComStar ROM was the weakest Intellignce agency in the Inner Sphere. Sad though it is, even SAFE were doing a better job
They got very few of the Com Guard. The overwhelming majority of the Word of Blake units are new recruits, rather than hardened Com guard veterens. Three of their Divisions- the 8th, 9th, and 10th- were raised *AFTER* the fall of Terra. FM: CS, p.58-61.
And as Victor said, this was supposed to be the upper end of what the Word of Blake could do in 4 years and had to have left them nearly bankrupted- hence their approaches to the Star League for member status.
This is why I really dislkied the sudden (apparently) uber powerz of the Word of Blake.
I realise they nuked a couple of planets into oblivion (Outreach rather springs to mind), but the WoB are supposed to have had only 6 WarShips max....
Well. That's why. As of 3060, WoB, with *JUST ONE MAJORPLANET* to its name fielded about 20 regiments. BBy contrast, the Draconis Combine, with literally hundreds of planets, could field 280. These figures include Infantry, Vehicle, and ASF numbers.
So, it strikes me as somewhat odd the Word of Blake is, citizen for citizen, the absolute military powerhouse of the Inner Sphere, capable even of defeating the Clans in the "Insane Citizen to Warrior" ratio by the time of the Jihad.
Again, I hate the idea of the Jihad. I thought BT was already starting to wind up a lot of the "complicated plot lines" already.
Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
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Gangrene
01/30/04 07:24 PM
24.6.228.14
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Quote:
Now, now. We're talking about Battletech, not the real world.
That's an exceptable argument for most technology issues, but for storyline points for an alternative history of the future that involves basic human motivations it is not good enough. The storyline is what's in question. Its one thing to accept that technology has made absurdly strong armor and inaccurate weapons, its another to accept that human nature has been turned on its head for the sake of the storyline without any plausible explanation. The first is acceptable and can be fun, the second is entirely unacceptable.
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In Battletech, mech battalions and clusters conquer planets with populations of billions, and have done so since about 2900 (the Third Succession War). The Clans (especially the Jade Falcons and Jaguars) were able to use a few dozen soldiers and a few hundred administrators per planet to convert whole populations to the Clan caste society, and have a profound impact in just fifteen years. When invasions in the Third Succession War involved 5 regiments of infantry, vehicles, and mechs on one planet, wow, that some epic warfare.
Add that to list of faults of the Btech storyline.
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No, the conquest of Terra was nothing unusual for the BT universe. Perverse and silly by RL standards, perhaps, but that's the price paid for using playable-sized military units.
The storyline does not have to be centered around playable-sized military units. It is silly by real life standards, fiction standards, and even sci-fi standards.
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As for those gross travel lackdowns on Terra, all that was needed were controls on interstellar travel, and as limited as interstellar travel is in BT, that's not going to affect many Terrans.
Only those who have any economic or political ambition after being squelched by Comstar for 200+ years, which would naturally be people who are affluent in Terran society.
The conflict would spurn from more than just inconvenience, as you suggest. People don't like to have artificial limits placed on them by a foreign power. Having their travel and commerce options dictated to them would probably be enough to start the fire of revolt smoldering.
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Beyond that, Terrans acted no differently than 99% of other conquered BT planets - the invaders didn't bother them, they didn't bother the invaders.
. . . because the storyline is stupid. Terra is different than other planets; it is (or should be) the religious and cultural center of the universe. Instead its treated with complete apathy and shallowly passed over like so much else in the universe.
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"Massive" - you need to be careful with that word in BT. "Massive" rearmament in BT involves expanding a miltiary by a few thousand people, not like RL.
In past posts you have exalted the Terran populace and industrial base as the means by which the WoB gets the manpower and equipment to do the job, and now you are saying that they really aren't needed at all. Make up your mind.
Anyway, your argument here is wrong even from a BT perspective. The logistics alone for the WoB attack would require mobilizing a significant portion of the populace into a wartime effort. Add to that the troops you claim the WoB uses to double their forces and the net result is a lot more than a mere few thousand people.
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As for involving the local populous..."New factory openings, one thousand new jobs. Seeking welders, computer technicians, and myomer specialists. Inquire at MechTech, Inc.'s website."
Maybe you forget that people have such things as "culture" and "religion." There is more to people than mere economics, and what you have described above has never worked between an occupying force and local population.
Gangrene
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Karagin
01/31/04 06:27 AM
62.128.179.2
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We are talking about the same WoB that according to the FOT SB held the familes of the 21st Centari Lancers hostage aren't we? No control...let's see Terra is no longer open to everyone, as you said the media is under their (WOB) control etc...so yes they do fully control things but still the man power issue is vaild one and doesn't wash through since the need of the industrial base and the military need to balance and as I should have stated eariler, not everyone is fit to be in the military in any level or setting. Thus the billions on Terra aren't going to be all that thrilled to do things for the WoB and also their was mention of CS troops still running around as gurilleas and such on Terra. Then the factional part of the WoB comes into play...are you talking about the same WoB as given in the novels and SBs prior to MWDA coming out?
Finding the mechwarriors may not be hard, finding the techs yes that would be a little harder and then RE-TRAINING them and housing them etc...all adds to the cost again. Amazing how this issue keeps coming up.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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