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Dark Age??

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Ignorant_Savage 01/15/04 12:40 AM 24.197.176.136	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Well, i've been out of the loop as of late (the past 2 years). I've been hearing alot of talk about 'Dark Age', and alot of refrences to it on the forums here. Can someone fill me in on what this is all about? I have a strange feeling that i'm not going to like this "Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey." - Benjamin Franklin
Cray 01/15/04 06:44 AM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply DON'T PANIC!!! (Worked for hitcherhiker's guide to the galaxy, right?) First, do not worry. If you decide you do not like Dark Ages, the normal Battletech setting you know is still available. The 3060s era in BT is still be supported and developed; several new rule books are due out for "Classic Battletech" over the next year. If you only want to play normal BT, then you should have no worries - the game is still alive, well, and expanding. Dark Ages is what FASA had been planning before it folded. FASA was going to jump the Battletech timeline forward about 80 years (to the 3130s) to get rid of all the tangled up story lines, continuity errors, and over-used characters. This was comparable to, but larger than, the jump from 3030 to 3050 (the "20 Year Update.") Dark Ages would come about when the Word of Blake, the Comstar splinter group, launched a campaign of terror and civil war in the Inner Sphere. WoB talked all of its many allies (who rarely knew WoB had other allies) into attacking their hated neighbors, or rebelling against their "oppressive" House lords. After about fifteen years with bloodshed on the scale of the First Succession War, Word of Blake was defeated. It was hunted down on its stronghold, Terra, and crushed. One of the heroes of the Jihad was a dude named Devlin Stone. Devlin got the idea in his head that he would form a new nation in the heart of the Inner Sphere, known as "Republic of the Sphere." He had an easy time talking most Houses into going along with this because the areas that had rebelled were generally those in the center of the Inner Sphere - the Isle of Skye, Tikonov, etc - and the areas worst damaged in the Jihad (i.e., most expensive to rebuild) were also there. So the Houses saved themselves a lot of trouble and turned the areas over to Stone. Basically, the Republic of the Sphere (RotS) is a reborn Terran Hegemony. But whereas the Terran Hegemony had its act together for 400 years, RotS cannot pour piss out of a boot without a road map. To make his nation work, Stone had to make a lot of compromises. He made forced relocations of "ethnic" groups to break up large nationalities (for example, a lot of House Liao planets forced into the Republic did not want to be there, so a lot of Davion and Kurita folks were shipped to those planets, and a lot of Capellans were shipped away). That's all coming back to bite the RotS in the ass in 3130, when Someone or Something shut down the HPG network. Suddenly all those little factions decided, "Well, it's time we rejoin our parent nation!" or "It's time we formed our own nation!" and now the RotS is disintegrating. The setting is called a "Dark Age" because the HPG network is shut down, but actually a lot of battlemechs use L3 equipment from MaxTech - technology has not stood still or reversed. WHAT THE JIHAD MEANS TO YOU Big battles! Finally, after a decade of farting around since Operation Bulldog, there's going to be some large scale warfare in the Inner Sphere! And not only that, the Jihad will the be first LONG war in a long time, since the Third Succession War. There'll be bad guys who are Bad Guys and you won't feel conflicted about slaughtering them! The Jihad starts at the end of 3067; it looks like there's a year to go before a Jihad sourcebook is unveiled. WHAT THE DARK AGE MEANS TO YOU 1) Nothing. You can keep playing in the 3060s era. 2) A fresh start. Get Record Sheets: Mechwarrior Dark Age and start designing L3 high-tech wunder mechs. Defend the RotS, make a breakaway nation, or lead House armies to reconquer the silly Republic of the Sphere! Don't worry about old characters from the novels and sourcebooks - Dark Ages is a fresh new era to begin in, where you don't have to worry about stepping on Official Storylines. 3) A chance to play a new game. While Dark Ages can be played with normal Battletech rules, you can also use the new, quick and streamlined "click base" figurines and rules from Wizkids. That's not my thing, but it might work for you. FALSEHOODS YOU MIGHT HEAR ABOUT DARK AGES 1) They took away the mechs. This is not true. The Republic of the Sphere prevented private citizens from owning mechs. Nobles could keep their mechs if they joined the militia. Other Houses did not follow this policy. The RotS continued to build mechs. In fact, it was recently revealed to be violating its own laws by operating a Secret Mech Factory for years. 2) The whole Inner Sphere demilitarized. Hell, no. There's been several wars since the Jihad. The Capellans attempted to invade the RotS to reclaim their lost worlds. The remnants of the FWL fight amongst themselves constantly. There was a general reduction in military sizes after the Jihad, but they were not eliminated. 3) Tech is declining. Nope. The only "dark ages" thing about the Dark Ages is the shut down of the HPGs and civil war in the RotS. The normal Battletech rule book issued for the Dark Ages thus far, a set of Record Sheets, showed several items of L3 equipment on battlemechs. 4) Only WorkMechs are available. Nope. Battlemechs and every other kind of war machine stalk the battlefields of the Dark Ages. Many of the silly little splinter groups in the Republic of the Sphere do not have easy access to Battlemechs, so they make do with converted WorkMechs, but Battlemechs are out there. 5) Dark Ages and Classic Battletech are separate time lines. This is the fondest wish of some people, but it's not true. Classic Battletech will be exploring and detailing how the Dark Ages came about by starting with the Jihad. There's years and years and years of products before CBT catches up with the Dark Ages setting, but they are one and the same. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/17/04 11:42 AM 213.187.148.138	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Let's see you forgot the nukes, the massive use of WMDs etc...and yes they did take the mechs away...no more dad's mech to son kind of thing that was BT... Let's see you failed to mention that when ROTS get's the big boost of profit and trade from removing all of the privately owned mechs the other houses are forced to do the same to stay in the running finically. Let's see you failed to mention that the playing pieces aren't compatiable both ways...you can't use any CBT items in MWDA. The bottom line here is that CBT and MWDA are two completely different games that don't offer either one anything useful and before anyone tries to say other wise, please show me the rules to intergrate CBT to MWDA... Because unlike Aerotech 1 or 2 or any of the other box games of BT, which could be plugged into the basic BT game, MWDA can't since the mechs as made by BT rules for the most part end up being level 3 units and thus don't fall into tournement play and don't make for 100% everyday use. So given that CBT has some life left...and that it's sales help keep MageKnight and the Baseball clicky tech alive as well as other WK games, we should be more focused on that and not MWDA. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
tgsofgc 01/17/04 07:16 PM 67.4.194.58	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Well Cray you certainly made that sound apetizing without even mentioning that MWDA is actually a totally seperate game produced by Wizkids. Currently the Dark Age setting is only used in this game a "clicky tech" venture which emphasizes collectable minitures you buy in bliser packs. Alot of resentment on the matter stems from how WK has handled this game. Namely they have promoted it while Fanpro and the "Classic" (read as: Real) Battletech are treated like a bastard step child. The game is basically a super simplified version of the Battletech table top rules and is based on a completely different scale (ie not interchangable, clever eh?). The game also earned a fair amount of scorn when the early expansions have been filled with a large number of battlemechs converted to utility 'mechs converted back to battlemechs. something hardly feasiable with the patterns we have seen in the Inner Sphere for the last 300+ years. Also many have complained about the poor quality of the fiction, which has fully replaced "Classic" battletech fiction (in that it is no longer available). The DA setting will theoretically come to Classic Battletech but recently thay have made a nod to the general dissaproval of the community and have released a "retro" book detailing the war of 3039. If this sells well the DA may be supplemented by many such retroproducts (at least I hope). As to the Level 3 tech most of it is very mild (most balanced maxtech stuff) such as Light Ferro Fibrous armor. If the setting becomes common place in Classic Battletech I wouldn't be surprised to see a certain amount of this tech made level 2. As to Karagins comment about Classic Battletech being what keeps mage knight afloat this is a bit overboard. Battletech has had slumping sales for years especially in comparision to simpler miniture games aimed at a younger audience (such as mage knight), that is at least partially why FASA closed shop afterall. So to even imply Classic Battletehc as being a powerful economic force is probally a little silly, I think if propperly advertised it could easily surpas the clicky tech MWDA though. PS. If you haven't noticed DA brings up some ummmm heated debate. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Cray 01/17/04 08:09 PM 24.27.227.73	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Let's see you forgot the nukes, the massive use of WMDs etc... I use the comparison to the First Succession War, and you think I forgot the nukes. Well, it is correct I did not mention the use WMDs explicitly. However, I did not forget them. I also did not forget (and will now mention) that the WoB downfall began when they began to run low on WMDs, and the anti-WoB forces were able to rally with conventional troops. There are some BIG conventional battles waiting to be played out. Quote: ...and yes they did take the mechs away...no more dad's mech to son kind of thing that was BT... I also said they took away privately owned mechs (except for those owned by nobles). But who cares? The standing militaries still have their mechs. The era of the privately owned mech was mostly dead a generation before the Jihad; it is still not entirely dead in the MWDA era. Quote: Let's see you failed to mention that when ROTS get's the big boost of profit and trade from removing all of the privately owned mechs the other houses are forced to do the same to stay in the running finically. I'm starting to think you did not read my post very closely, Karagin. While I did not mention the RotS was behind the general reduction in troop strengths, I did specifically mention a reduction in troop strengths around the Inner Sphere. Quote: MWDA can't since the mechs as made by BT rules for the most part end up being level 3 units and thus don't fall into tournement play and don't make for 100% everyday use. OK. There's the Record Sheets: Dark Ages, which, as you noted, are L3. However, those mechs are also everyday mechs for the Dark Age setting, so I'm not sure I follow your issue. RS:MWDA is regularizing L3 tech into L2 tech for the MWDA setting, which is cool by my book. Quote: So given that CBT has some life left...and that it's sales help keep MageKnight and the Baseball clicky tech alive That's a bit of a reversal of how things work, and you know it. FASA was not able to turn a profit on BT; and folded. Wizkids was able to pick up FASA's intellectual properties with its large profit margins from MageKnight, and sustain both Shadowrun and Battletech until FanPro could get them functional. I really doubt the licensing fees FanPro pays (if any) is doing much for Wizkids. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/17/04 08:39 PM 24.27.227.73	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Currently the Dark Age setting is only used in this game a "clicky tech" venture which emphasizes collectable minitures you buy in bliser packs. That is false. You know very well that there is already a CBT product for MWDA, the RS:MWDA, and that any player is quite able to apply CBT rules to the MWDA setting. The mechs, major plots, and major NPCs are known - all you need is the Battletech Master Rules to play in the MWDA setting. If you cannot play CBT in the MWDA era, you're not trying hard enough, or you're raising artificial barriers to game play. It is perfectly adequate to declare, "'K, the Capellans are attacking this RotS planet with 8 Vindicators and 4 Thunderbolts. Defenders include four mining mechs and a company of Po tanks." There's no conversion needed, no need to worry about different game scales unless you wanted a compulsively correct one-to-one official translation of some "unique" clicktech unit. Quote: Namely they have promoted it while Fanpro and the "Classic" (read as: Real) Battletech are treated like a bastard step child. To rephrase that, CBT does not sell well. MageKnight and MWDA/Clicktech does. The lack of interest in CBT can come across like official neglect, especially in comparison to a profitable game (one with money for advertizing) like MWDA/Clicktech. Quote: The game also earned a fair amount of scorn when the early expansions have been filled with a large number of battlemechs converted to utility 'mechs converted back to battlemechs. Yeah, there was a fair amount of scorn for the first release of DnD 3E/d20, too. People didn't understand the logic behind the widespread use of utility mechs because they had a tiny fraction of the story, so they looked at what they knew (pre-Jihad Inner Sphere, where 'mechs were important and needed) and looked at the MWDA setting (where mechs were apparently abandoned), and railed like banshees. When you start looking at the carnage of the Jihad (recently cited in MWDA releases as reaching 1 trillion dead), the interest in reduction of troop strengths and leaving on the governments in control of battlemechs make a lot more sense - people were tired of war. When you factor in the typical post-War scramble of defense contractors to find a market when only one or two battlemech factories per House would have battlemech contracts, understandably there would be a lot of utility mechs as battlemech lines were changed to civilian production (vs. no production, given the enforced lack of market). So when the HPG net shut down and RotS began suffering a multi-sided civil war (plus the first external invasions - good luck, Capellans!), people only had utility mechs to use for war. So they converted them. Do you actually have any examples of battlemechs being turned into utility mechs? All utility mechs that I know of were built from the factory as utility mechs. They have different internal structures and movement rules than battlemechs; it's not a convertable thing. Quote: Also many have complained about the poor quality of the fiction, Yeah, they made some bad author choices for MWDA fiction. The selected authors knew too little about BT. Jumping, mid-air flipping battlemechs, indeed. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tgsofgc 01/17/04 11:47 PM 67.4.199.247	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply First of all let me say my understanding of the release schedual over at CBt is haphazard at best, I wasn't even sure if MWDA record sheets were out yet or not. Still I would hold that the setting ismainly, at least currently, a product of the clicky tech game. Sure you can use it in CBT but there doesn't exist, imho, enough of a basis for even those inclined to make good use of it. Sure there are Record Sheets and there may even be a TRO (not sure on that one...) but there aren't scenarios, or the big "fluff" books like Field manuals set in the period yet (that i know of...). So yes while you can play in it, you can play in practically anything. It is the releases that are responsible for making the universe colorful and I haven't seen enough, nor enough interesting ones of these imo, to turn it into a true CBT setting yet (again imo). Quote: To rephrase that, CBT does not sell well. MageKnight and MWDA/Clicktech does. The lack of interest in CBT can come across like official neglect, especially in comparison to a profitable game (one with money for advertizing) like MWDA/Clicktech. As I tried to put across in my comment, which was partially a response to Karagin is that yes "clicky tech" outsells CBT, and probally will continue to do so well into the future. However, like many I feel that WK may be able to turn there deal with Fanpro into a more profitable venture if both simply invested in more advertising. As is I have seen adds and promotional deals for MWDA in magazines, let along the huge displays in game stores, while the nearest hobby/game stores to me don't even carry more than the CBT boxed set. Is this an issue of profit margins, possibly. But is it also an issue of exposure, I think so. Quote: Do you actually have any examples of battlemechs being turned into utility mechs? All utility mechs that I know of were built from the factory as utility mechs. They have different internal structures and movement rules than battlemechs; it's not a convertable thing. No, this was my take on what happened from various complaints... I guess I was mislead. Personally I have yet to, and don't plan to, purchase any products for MWDA "clicky tech" game. I have too much invested in CBT and from what I have read about gameplay, I am not intrested in the game. If more MWDA material is released for CBT I may try to get my hands on it though, especially a "fluff" book of some length detailing the changes as well as new mech designs (an expanded 20 year update book if you will). Though any future purchases would depend upon what i thought of such a product. Till a product like this comes out I guess its moot. Covert Ops is still the 3060s right? I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Nightward 01/18/04 02:40 AM 202.141.216.73	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Something ate Warner's hard drive. All the HMP files for RS: MW DA have been lost. To me, the fact that they're all apparently Level 3 kinda defeats the point. I loathe and detest most L3 gear, although most of the rules are quite OK. In any case, developing a RS book that cannot even be used at tournements... I'd have preferred to see perhaps an all-new Level 3 Tech Readout, detailing some of the hot new tech in the works from both the Houses and Clans. CBT fiction appears to be back on-line, though FanPro appears to have realised how deeply unpopular the DA setting is with most CBT fans and are going to be doing some pretty heavily "re-tool" stuff. The new trilogy is supposed to be about the Exodus and formation of the Clans, which should be pretty good. All information herein was taken from the latest BattleChat over at the CBT.com site. Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Cray 01/18/04 06:24 AM 24.27.227.73	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The Record Sheets are out; I own them. They were released in 2002, IIRC. Quote: It is the releases that are responsible for making the universe colorful and I haven't seen enough, nor enough interesting ones of these imo, to turn it into a true CBT setting yet (again imo). As you like. There is currently a larger body of information available about the MWDA setting and its worlds, online and free, than CBT had from its debut in 1984 to the release of the first of the House Sourcebooks in 1986. There are about a hundred worlds described in detail, both in terms of terrain and history, for the MWDA, plus descriptions of House histories before and after the Jihad. http://www.wizkidsgames.com/mwdarkage/comstar/ The interactive map gives you more detail on planets than have appeared in any House Sourcebook. The "Touring the Stars" section (especially in the Comstar archives) gives you a wealth of information appropriate for any era. Not up to House Sourcebook density, but it's also free and lets you know about the current state of House in the 3130s: Touring the Stars When I started playing CBT in 1986, all I had was the sidebar descriptions of the Houses found in the 2nd edition BT sourcebook, and the game was still fun. ("I wanna play Steiner!" "You want to play Steiner just because they have the big mechs!" "Yeah, so?") Anyone starting off in the MWDA setting has more info available online to them than what shows up in boxed sets (or at least ye olde boxed sets I bought). Quote: Personally I have yet to, and don't plan to, purchase any products for MWDA "clicky tech" game. I have too much invested in CBT and from what I have read about gameplay, I am not intrested in the game. So don't buy Clicktech. I haven't. If I play in MWDA, it's going to be with CBT rules. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon. Edited by Cray (01/18/04 06:30 AM)
Karagin 01/18/04 12:05 PM 213.187.148.138	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Big Battles using MWDA rules and miniatures...not something that is very appealing to most of the CBT players... Really the days of mechs being handed over to faimly are gone...could you show me in any of the OFFICAL CBT books where this is stated please. The lack of giving the reason as to WHY they reduced the troops is telling and important part to the whole MWDA background just as the WMDs usage by the WOB. Again Level 3 is not in full use by every one, thus most won't use them and thus the point is lost. And once again as I notice you failed to comment on as does the others who defend MWDA, the game is NOT compatable with Battletech as where all of the other box games, like Aerotech or Battletroops or Solaris etc... BT wasn't making a profit...funny they still had it (FASA) and it was doing better then say Earthdawn or Renegade Legion...and correct me if I am wrong but BT was doing a hell of a lot better then VOR was or did. FASA stopped making a profit when it made silly decession dealing with the MW Computer games and royalites as well as running more then their normal three main games. They also had the lawsuit with HG over the original artwork of the basic mechs, but still managed to keep going. What they lost money and profit on was all of the late shipping dates or delays and then all of the need to revise everything because they didn't have a decent proofreader. And then there where other issues as well, but that not the point here. The point is that based on the last word from Randal there seems to be a lot out for BT and I haven't seen next to squat for MWDA...oh wait I did see something...MWDA the BATTLETECH collecttiabkle game... Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/18/04 12:23 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Big Battles using MWDA rules and miniatures...not something that is very appealing to most of the CBT players That's just a lie. You can use CBT OR MWDA rules to play out those battles. There are no rules in the MWDA setting that says, "If you do not use Clicktech, you'll be beaten by the game police." There's even official CBT support for gaming the MWDA era, published record sheets. Making unsupported statements like, "You have to use Clicktech rules for those battles" is just uncool. If you don't like MWDA, fine. But don't lie about it. Edited by Cray (01/18/04 12:37 PM)
Karagin 01/18/04 12:57 PM 213.187.148.138	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Quote: Big Battles using MWDA rules and miniatures...not something that is very appealing to most of the CBT players That's just a lie. You can use CBT OR MWDA rules to play out those battles. There are no rules in the MWDA setting that says, "If you do not use Clicktech, you'll be beaten by the game police." There's even official CBT support for gaming the MWDA era, published record sheets. Making unsupported statements like, "You have to use Clicktech rules for those battles" is just uncool. If you don't like MWDA, fine. But don't lie about it. Not lying about anything...point out the facts here...I haven't seen one thing that let's you play a MWDA battle using CBT rules or mechs...everything MWDA deals with revolves around the MWDA mechs...no lies there. Have they release a book giving us the whole convential battles between WOB and the IS/Clans? Nope. And when said book comes out it will be the point that ties the two games together and thus CBT will be on the back buner at that point. So the point about MWDA being playable with only MWDA stuff is still truthful. ANd again I note that you fail to talk about the point of MWDA being 100% compatiable with BT...you say there is a record sheet book out and that is it...funny thing there, a lot of the mechs in that book are level 3 thus not usable for 80% of the folks playing BT. Yet you don't even try to comment on the part about how MWDA is NOT BT and thus a different game and not something that has been 100% accepted by the whole BT community. And you already know my stance on MWDA. SO there are no lies here. Show me and everyone else where we can get the scenarios to play the MWDA battles via CBT and I will add that to list of things done for both games jointly. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/18/04 01:05 PM 213.187.148.138	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply All of that is nice...but given that the Internet as we know it wasn't out in 84 or 86 so you really can't compare the two timelines as you did. For some one who states he won't buy MWDA you are really defending it well...and given that FanPro is putting a lot of CBT stuff that is filling in the blanks and redoing the house books tells me that MWDA is not selling well and thus the fans have spoken again and WK is either reversing it's self and allowing FP to do things like the older stuff or they have taken the hint...Granted I am a tad behind on events being in Iraq...but I am not out of the loop fully. So which is it? Is FP getting some freedom to do things or is MWDA not selling as well as WK wants and hoped now? Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/18/04 01:12 PM 213.187.148.138	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Actually the book is out...Cray is right...they have L3 mechs and lots of the other mechs including the misnamed Clan mechs... 75 ton Storm Crow and the 55 ton Mad Cats...but hey those aren't errors...yeah okay... Good to see that some one at CBT and FP did listen to the fans and seen that we don't all want MWDA stuff and have gotten the chance to do some of the older stuff. I for one and looking forward to that will support those products. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/18/04 01:33 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Not lying about anything...point out the facts here...I haven't seen one thing that let's you play a MWDA battle using CBT rules or mechs... See: Record Sheets: MWDA. CBT has already supported gaming in the MWDA setting. If you have chosen not to buy those Record Sheets, fine. But do not run around saying, "You can't play MWDA without buying Clicktech." That is wrong. CBT supports and provides rules for playing in MWDA. If you choose to ignore them, that is your issue, not a basis for claiming "MWDA can only be played with Clicktech." Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/18/04 01:40 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: For some one who states he won't buy MWDA you are really defending it well... Oh, no. You've confused the issues. I said I would not buy Clicktech minis. I will buy MWDA, but I will buy CBT's MWDA, not the Clicktech version. Also, half the reason I'm replying is because you're mis-representing MWDA. I do not like the unfairness of your statements. For example, the blatantly wrong claim that you MUST have clicktech to play the Jihad and MWDA is just wrong. Also, the whole point about the availability of the internet when BT was released - irrelevant. People were able to play CBT without a great deal of information. You do not need in-depth background to play. There's more than enough there to play CBT:MWDA. And it's FREE. If you started representing MWDA fairly, I wouldn't be complaining. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Ignorant_Savage 01/18/04 04:08 PM 24.197.176.136	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I hath seen the future, and ye, verily, it doth suck mightly. Anyway, I do have a few more questions on this thread for you guys, before we're done beating the proverbial dead horse: 1) What happened to the Clans? I read all the threads in the post, and (even though I 'quickly scanned' through a few) I don't think i saw a single mention of the Clans. Why didn't they come and gobble up the IS? 2) Where was ComStar? Another missing player. In case the folks who put this BS mish-mosh project together didn't notice, ComStar is devoted to protecting the ENTIRE Inner Sphere, and they have a HUGE army, at least on par with some of the smaller states. What did they do during this whole deal? Sit of the fence and hold thier.... socks? 3) The Periphery, what's up with them then? Yeah, if this new Age of War didn't spill into the periphery, this so called 'jihad' would leave them in a better position after its conclusion. I can at least see the Taurians make an attempt to take back some of their border worlds, the Pleadies Cluster, etc. Although I do recall some hints towards WoB macinations in this area in the FM: Periphery, I don't think that I heard specific mention of peripher action in any of the threads. 4) Interconnected-ness? God I hope not. Can anyone cite specific examples where CBT is bering steered in this wierd direction? and last, but not least.... 5) How does this suck so bad? Are you sure that the same people that were on the orignal Battletech game are actually working on this one? It sounds like their trying to turn BT into an anime series. (Don't get me wrong, I like anime.) This is just, in my opinion, an AWFUL direction to go with the story line. Wow. Are you sure they didn't hire a team of monkeys to come up with this? Seriously, it had the plot depth of a coffee table book. Alright, so that last one was more of a comment than a question. But seriuosly folks, thanks to everyone for all the comments and information, now I know NOT to play this. - Savage "Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey." - Benjamin Franklin
Ignorant_Savage 01/18/04 04:10 PM 24.197.176.136	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Oh, I almost forgot: Frankly, the idea of the WoB (almost) taking over the Inner Sphere is preposterous. The taking of Terra was masterfull, but in the current CBT Timeline, how long can they really hope to hold it? With the Clan threat neutralized... well.. lessened, ComStar is going to get their s&%t together soon and kick some tail. Then, they WoB is left out in the cold. Seriously, who can they really count on too support them? Thomas Marik? Right... he's having second thoughts after the Gibson incident. The Marian Hegnemony? Don't make me laugh. - Savage "Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey." - Benjamin Franklin
Cray 01/18/04 06:11 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Frankly, the idea of the WoB (almost) taking over the Inner Sphere is preposterous. The taking of Terra was masterfull, but in the current CBT Timeline, how long can they really hope to hold it? With the Clan threat neutralized... well.. lessened, ComStar is going to get their s&%t together soon and kick some tail. Then, they WoB is left out in the cold. Comstar has no industrial base, no population backing it, and only subsists on its "telephone" (HPG) monopolies. WoB has ~6 billion tax payers on Terra and collected a fraction of the FWL's tax income for several years, another trillion tax payers funneling money into WoB. Quote: Seriously, who can they really count on too support them? Thomas Marik? Right... he's having second thoughts after the Gibson incident. The Marian Hegnemony? Don't make me laugh. The Marian Hegemony blew them off, too. However, you misunderstand how WoB works. I recommend reading the Periphery section of "Touring the Stars" for examples. WoB does not have a bunch of people standing up shouting "We're for the Word of Blake!" WoB has convinced a bunch of people to fight their neighbors. Not for WoB, but for themselves. The Isle of Skye could be convinced to fight the Lyrans. The Tamar Pact, ripped apart by the Clans and "ignored" by the Steiners could be convinced to fight the Lyrans for independence. The Duchy of Andurien, so long oppressed by the FWL, could be convinced to fight the FWL. The St. Ives Commonality and Tikonov Commonality need little excuse to rise up against the Capellans. The Taurians thought the Federated Suns was attacking them, and counter-attacked with great (Taurian) viciousness. WoB just whispered in their ear, gave them some guns, and encouraged them to take the wonderful opportunity to rebel. WoB never came close to taking over the Inner Sphere. It did, however, spread terror and unrest throughout the Inner Sphere. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon. Edited by Cray (01/18/04 06:37 PM)
Cray 01/18/04 06:29 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: 1) What happened to the Clans? I read all the threads in the post, and (even though I 'quickly scanned' through a few) I don't think i saw a single mention of the Clans. Why didn't they come and gobble up the IS? 1) Because they're outnumbered 5000:1. The Clan homeworlds have a population of 1.2 billion. The Inner Sphere has a population of 5 trillion. 2) Because the Clans had a civil war of their own. The Clans in the Inner Sphere fought hard against the Jihad; the rest of them fought amongst themselves, and then isolated the Homeworlds from outside contact. Quote: 2) Where was ComStar? Another missing player. They were not missing. They were present throughout the Jihad. The Comguards fought hard against WoB. Do not make the mistake of "I have not personally read about faction X" with "Faction X was not present during the Jihad." Please read "touring the stars" on INN. Comstar was present in the Jihad and, despite its near-annihilation, fought to the bloody end. It survived. WoB did not. Comstar Story 1 Comstar Story 2 Quote: ) The Periphery, what's up with them then? Yeah, if this new Age of War didn't spill into the periphery, this so called 'jihad' would leave them in a better position after its conclusion. I can at least see the Taurians make an attempt to take back some of their border worlds, the Pleadies Cluster, etc. Although I do recall some hints towards WoB macinations in this area in the FM: Periphery, I don't think that I heard specific mention of peripher action in any of the threads. Read Touring the Stars. WoB dropped a Dino-Killer asteroid on Taurus, and blamed it on Davion. The anti-Davion paranoid Taurians bought the ploy hook, line, and sinker. The WoB "advisors" helped the Taurians come to that conclusion. Quote: During that terrible war, the Word of Blake, taking advantage of Shraplen's paranoia of House Davion and his misplaced trust in their "advisors" [WoB] enacted a terrible plan. Using their Erinyes system, the Blakist assault consisted solely of dropping several of the smaller asteroids near Taurus upon the planet itself, leaving just enough evidence behind to incriminate the Federated Suns. The horrendous attack, though seen a few more times during the Jihad, all but decapitated the Taurian leadership, leaving the rest of the Concordat convinced that the Davions had launched the strike. THAT is the kind of thing WoB did to start the Jihad. It played the existing factions against each other. It did not personally conquer - it did not have the manpower to do so. Instead, it instigated wars around the Inner Sphere. Quote: Interconnected-ness? God I hope not. Can anyone cite specific examples where CBT is bering steered in this wierd direction? What do you mean, Interconnectedness? In the 3067-era and MWDA-era, all the factions of BT continue to fight against each other. The interconnection that began in 3030 (with the FS-LC union) ended in the FedCom Civil War, before the Jihad. Quote: 5) How does this suck so bad? Are you sure that the same people that were on the orignal Battletech game are actually working on this one? Yes. The owners of Wizkids are the original writers of BT. The goal was to end the big armies nonsense of the 3050s era and go back to the individuals-matter setting of the 3025. You're making the mistaking many anti-MWDA folks make, and interpreting inadequate evidence incorrectly. Stop and get the full story. All of your questions are addressed in MWDA; do not let them be strictly rhetorical, but listen to the answers. Comstar was present in the Jihad; they fought against WoB. The Clans were present in the Jihad; those who did not fight WoB fought amongst themselves. The Periphery was present in the Jihad; it was tricked into causing chaos like so many other players manipulated by WoB. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.** Edited by Cray (01/18/04 06:34 PM)
Nightward 01/18/04 06:53 PM 202.138.41.229	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quit whining. Both of you. If you are going to have a debate, do so properly, instead of degenerating into personal attacks like the one above. Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Cray 01/18/04 06:55 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Fair 'nuff. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Ignorant_Savage 01/19/04 06:39 AM 24.197.176.136	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply oh man, I remember Bob Richter. Do I remember that guy... (sigh). I had some epic arguments with him when I posted here under another name (back in the day). heh. "Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey." - Benjamin Franklin
tgsofgc 01/19/04 02:47 PM 67.4.193.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply hehe I get to be here for this one! On a related note Cray and Karagin have sparred in the past like on Bob's Shadow Hawk replacement... that Kar insisted was a fire support 'mech, but I am not bringing up that old arguement. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
tgsofgc 01/19/04 03:41 PM 67.4.193.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Ok because I am a meglomaniac and love to get my nose right in the middle of everything this is my attempt to tread the middle ground and come up with a post all sides can live with. Part 1 - Storyline The Dark Ages centers around the Word of Blake splinter group coercing most of the inner sphere into wars that allows them to centralize their power around Terra. Eventually the Word of Blake is defeated after many heinous war crimes, including brainwashing and use of nuclear weapons. Out of this carnage a new faction (the realm of the sphere) arises that is much like a tarran hegemony. Also things return to a more limited environment, as per 3025, though technology remains quite advanced (in fact advances). Part 2 - The Setting As a setting the Dark Ages takes place in 3132 and is geared more towards smaller battles (individuals), though larger wars still take place. Also many of the official 'mechs yet produced make use of various peices of Level 3 tech from Maxtech, like Light Ferro Fibrous armor. One of the other major developments is the move of 'mechs towards military ownership and away from them being a sort of family heirloom. Part 3 - The Game MWDA or Mechwarrior: Dark Ages is the game Wizkids produced with the battletech liscence. It is a "clickytech" game aimed at younger audiences that plays like Mageknight. The game is made by at least one of the original creators of battletech (who owns Wizkids, and created Mage Knight). The game has only met with limited success todate, unlike mage knight, as it has attracted few of the continuing hardcore battletech fans. This compounded with unpopular product developement choices (it is a collectable miniature game) has lead to a recent reorganizing of the game's development team and strategies. Benefits: Part 1 - the Setting It thrusts battletech into a new succession wars style era with out sending technology backwards, degrading battlemechs, or unnecessarily eliminating previous factions players might enjoy (though many factions have major changes, of the variety that comes in 80 years). The Setting also allows a fresh new starting point for new players to jump into the game. Part 2 - The Storyline The Dark Ages resolves many of the beginnings started in the later storylines, such as those in TRO: 3067. As Fanpro releases new materials to fill in the gap this will become more consistant. (this can be approached in the same manner as the Clan Invasion where many materials about the clans origins and evolution took a long time to be released, though the invasion happened with some foreshadowing). Problems Part 1 - The Storyline Many players of CBT have a strong dislike of the Word of Blake, the use of Nukes in Battletech, and change. Namely many players associate Battletech with the lore they have come to love, including many major characters that have been developed through the fiction. As such this "jump forward" where many of these things change (in ways players never wanted to see happen) has been resisted. Another large strike against the storyline is the fact that the fiction as seen so far has been fairly lack luster in comparision to the older novels (this means a large amount to many players). Part 2 - The Setting Many players don't like to use Level 3 technology, as such the Record sheets have been the object of scorn. This may be solved if and when we see TROs for the period that may cause some of the technology to become Level 2. Many players, especially the very old school, fell in love with family owned 'mechs and medieval lineage aspects of Battletech. Many late players, or those well adjusted, have become use to large battles with many units, and see the new setting as a means to stop this kind of gameplay. Part 3 - The Game Many, many CBT dislike the "clickytech" game and this has shaped their views of the setting. Complaints about the clickytech game include "dumbing it down", incompatiability between old CBT minitures and the MWDA minis, and the collectiability of the game. Problems were only compounded in early expansions of MWDA that featured relatively few 'mechs and utility 'mechs converted into battlemechs. Both of these offend the sensabilities of CBT players and have lead to claims like "there are no mechs left." Part 4 - Support Currently there is little support for the genera in CBT. Released so far is a set of RS for the period. Though many of these are level 3. While a large amount of fluff/lore is available online, such as the Comstar Inn, many players will wait to pass final judgement for a real supplement material (such as field manuals, TROs, or scenario books). The Future MWDA hasn't had as good a sales as hoped, though they eclipse CBTs, as such WK has been enacting changes to the developement. Similarly many CBT players actively appose the setting, whether soured from MWDA or a dislike of fiction, this (some theorize) has driven Fanpro to publish more materials for the classical period (see the upcoming history book). So if you are intressted in it is as a CBT setting it might be awhile before you can reach a final judgement (with more published materials), unless you already have. Hope that fairly sums up the pros/cons, etc. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Cray 01/19/04 04:09 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I'd say that's a fairly impartial summary of what the setting is and the strikes against MWDA. However, you didn't quite summarize the positive benefits that FASA was hoping to achieve with MWDA (like what grievances against the current 3067-era setting they were trying to address, and not everyone is happy with how CBT turned out). But thanks for summing that all up; I noticed it took you a while, and I appreciate that. (I admit to lurking on the "Who's on line" page waiting to pounce on your post...and waiting...and waiting... ) I'll make a stab at the other side of the coin, without putting in as much effort as you did. MWDA stems from FASA's interest in addressing certain complaints about the post-3025 era. You touched on several of them. For example, Old School 3025-era players (and you still find them on the forums; I certainly have nostalgia for the era) did not like the radical changes to BT starting anywhere from the Fourth Succession War to the War of 3039 (<-- I detest the outcome; it was pure cheese) to the Clan invasion (<-- a bungled handling of the return of Kerensky if there was one). Some of them disliked the loss of family mechs in favor of large, national militaries. Some of them disliked the rise of advanced technology; double strength heat sinks alone completely altered the game. Some of them disliked the radical alterations to the political situations. Some disliked all that and more. Newer players were annoyed at changes ranging from the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars (personally, I LOVED Operation Bulldog and regretted not seeing it repeated, but some people had whole galaxies of Smoke Jag minis and were otherwise pro-Clan supporters), to the FedCom Civil War, and the many other rapid changes between 3050 and 3067. The solution was obvious: start anew in a setting with few ties to the old one. None of the old, irritating characters would stay around. All the factions would have a fresh start. All the plot lines would start anew. It would be a return to the Old Days, but without killing the factions or technology people had grown used to. So, we got the Jihad (wiping the slate clean) and the MWDA. The Clicktech was a last minute introduction, owing to the new ownership of BT. MWDA... 1) Reduced military sizes to the old, 3025-era levels, where small groups of mechs defended whole planets, and conquered whole planets. 2) Individual ownership of mechs. While the RotS notionally abolished this concept (except in the hands of nobles), the MWDA (esp. Clicktech) is strongly linking mechwarriors to specific mechs. Warfare is once again a matter of personalities and cobbled-together mechs scrambling for resources and spare parts. Also, there's a reason for the limited CBT support in MWDA. The "game plan" is for CBT to explore how the MWDA came about, starting with the Jihad and moving forward. There's about 80 years of history for CBT to explore before it gets to the MWDA setting, and just jumping there would commit the same error that CBT did in 20-Year Update. It's only now, more than a decade after the release of the 20-Year Update, that we might get to see what happened during that period in any depth. That big jump has always irked a lot of the writers, apparently. So while Clicktech does the grunt work of covering the MWDA, CBT gets to explore how the MWDA setting came about - it isn't simply going to skip forward 80 years. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tgsofgc 01/19/04 08:59 PM 67.4.199.141	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: But thanks for summing that all up; I noticed it took you a while, and I appreciate that. (I admit to lurking on the "Who's on line" page waiting to pounce on your post...and waiting...and waiting... ) sorry man I took a rest break in the middle to go get me some supper, glad it pretty much passed muster for at least half... we will have to see what Karagin has to say. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Ignorant_Savage 01/22/04 05:06 AM 24.197.176.136	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Comstar has no industrial base, no population backing it Aparently, you've never heard of Free Rasalhauge, or Tukayyid for that matter. As far as the econimic issue works, I would assume that ComStar would make a helluva lot more money than the Wobblies. Taxpayers or no, ComStar gets paid a fee for every single HPG transmission in their area of inluence, and last time I checked, that was the vast majority of the Inner Sphere and beyond. Any way you slice it, that's alot of dimp. In short: If ComStar ain't got no money, than I'm a monkey's bare-arsed uncle. Plus, their army, last time I checked (FM: ComStar) was about (this is a guess without looking) 15 times larger than the WoB. Also, you can play people off as much as you want against each other, but that don't mean that they're gonna wrastle. Skye, no matter how much they want 'Free Skye' or whatever, is going to stand by the LC (or LA in this case) when the going gets rough. After all, they are Lyrans through and through. Same with the Taurians. There are still some checks in balances set against the extremism of the current protector. Plus add to that the fact that the former protector still has an offsrping that can claim to be his heir floating around somehere. The list goes on.... I guess I just have a hard time giving the WoB as much legitmacy as the people who put "Dark Age" together do. When it all comes down to it, they're a recationary group of fanatics with more splinter groups than the Isrealli parliment. They do not have the central leadership, drive, or focus to hold onto Terra much longer, much less organize a "jihad" against the entirety of the Inner Sphere and the periphery. Then again, they don't pay me the big bucks to make these decisions, do they? "Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey." - Benjamin Franklin
Ignorant_Savage 01/22/04 05:26 AM 24.197.176.136	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply once again, thanks to everyone for all the info. i'm pretty sure that i'm not intrested in playing MWDA. I've had a look at some of the source material for it, and i think that i'm just going to stick with CBT. - Savage "Those who trade away essential freedoms for a little saftey deserve neither freedom or saftey." - Benjamin Franklin
Cray 01/22/04 06:03 AM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Aparently, you've never heard of Free Rasalhauge, or Tukayyid for that matter. Yeah, I have, and here's a couple of points about them: Comstar does not own/rule/tax the Free Rasalhague Republic. It has troops stationed there, probably provides postal services, and definitely provides HPG services. If Comstar gets anything military goods out of the FRR, Comstar is only getting what it pays for. In comparison, WoB collects taxes off 6 billion Terrans (via its Bureau of Terran Affairs, see the Comstar SB) and can run Terran industries as government-owned operations. Tukayyid is a little-developed agrarian world. It was selected for the Big Showdown because it had so little to loose in large-scale warfare. For military production, it's about as useful as a patch of Kansas prairie, cowflop and all. In the mean time, WoB is siphoning off a non-trivial fraction of the FWL's GDP. Quote: In short: If ComStar ain't got no money, than I'm a monkey's bare-arsed uncle. Comstar's got money, and it's got money that would make a merc unit pale with envy. However, it only has a fraction of what WoB has. Quote: Also, you can play people off as much as you want against each other, but that don't mean that they're gonna wrastle. Skye, no matter how much they want 'Free Skye' or whatever, is going to stand by the LC (or LA in this case) when the going gets rough. After all, they are Lyrans through and through. 1) The rebellions ARE what make the "going get tough." 2) Skye did not stand by the Lyrans when it rebelled in the mid-3030s and pushed Hanse's War of 3034 back to the War of 3039. Troops had to be sent into to quell the rebellion. Since then, Skye feels ignored and overlooked by the Lyrans while the Clans and Kuritans prey on them. If Skye rebels, then it has good reason in its silly little head to do so. Quote: Same with the Taurians. There are still some checks in balances set against the extremism of the current protector. They're failing. Read the last 9 (real) years worth of products about the Taurians, starting with TR:3058 (published 1995), when a coup attempt against the (previous) unstable Protector failed and a civil war almost broke out among the Taurians. The Taurians then had a decent Protector for a few years, but he was assassinated, conveniently clearing the road block for the Taurians to ally with the Capellans (which the dead Protector opposed). The Taurians then wasted a lot of their military strength in St. Ives, mostly because the then and current paranoid anti-Davion Protector figured the assassination of his predecessor was a Davion plot. That Protector will be the downfall of the Concordat, but it is by no means the only reason for the Taurian schism. Over the past ~decade of real time, a lot of problems have been creeping in the Concordat - economic (weak), military (spent), social (anti-Davion paranoia), and political (unfit leadership and the inability to oust him). Quote: The list goes on.... Most of which can be explained, particularly with the new insights provided by Touring the Stars. List them if you like, or go back over the previous points I've explained. I'll be happy to offer more detail. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/22/04 06:16 AM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: once again, thanks to everyone for all the info. i'm pretty sure that i'm not intrested in playing MWDA. I've had a look at some of the source material for it, and i think that i'm just going to stick with CBT. Fair 'nuff. Heck, I'll be using CBT rules even if I DO play in the MWDA setting. Minis (especially when you cannot design the vehicle behind them) do nothing for me. You can design vehicles and mechs with CBT:MWDA. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/22/04 09:28 AM 195.238.43.161	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I think you have it backwards...the RS MWDA is letting in MWDA into the CBT setting, NOTHING allows CBT into MWDA, how about showing us that one...a way to use the current CBT stuff in MWDA...which is my point but you seemed to miss it. May be I wasn't clearly expressing it. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/22/04 09:29 AM 195.238.43.161	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Works for me... Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/22/04 09:33 AM 195.238.43.161	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I am not mis representing anything. Nothing so far put out shows any kind of support to allow CBT into MWDA and given that ONLY one item that has come out has MWDA coming over to CBT not the other way around. You say you won't by Clickytech, yet you will buy MWDA...last time I looked MWDA and Clickytech ARE THE SAME THING. So which is it for you? Because you have confused me on where you stand here. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/22/04 09:37 AM 195.238.43.161	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply First...the current MWDA isn't FASA's baby anymore...it's WKs so the whole thing has the taint of MageKnights with mechs. Second, when the 20 year up date was done it was with support material all ready to go and it came out with in a year of the Update. So far nothing has come out to suppor the big jump that MWDA is for CBT other then the record sheets but those don't give you anything to bring your current game to new timeline and nothing is done in a single EASY TO USE sourebook that still leaves things open enough for the fans to use. So far everything out there on MWDA is set to have you buy the WK figures and toys and leaves the CBT miniatures in the dust...please show us anything beyond the MWDA RS that supports intergration of CBT into the MWDA setting... Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/22/04 10:53 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Well, I'm glad I didn't put money behind my guesstimate you only had internet access on the weekends. Quote: the current MWDA isn't FASA's baby anymore...it's WKs so the whole thing has the taint of MageKnights with mechs. Kind of, in a round about way, yes. The plan was for Wizkids to use their Clicktech to explore the MWDA, while CBT concentrated on exploring how the MWDA setting came about, starting with the current 3067-era and moving forward. So, yeah, you could say the MWDA is Wizkid's baby, but that only goes so far. I mean, both CBT and MWDA:Clicktech share writers, so you can't say a secretive group of WK writers is tainting the work. Randall, Warner, and Herb (I know I overlooked some) all contributed to MWDA background, most obviously the Touring the Stars posts and INN Interactive Map. They are also primary writers of the latest and upcoming CBT products. I believe Loren Coleman, Chris Hartford, and Chris "Bones" Trossen are also involved in both games to some extent. Quote: So far everything out there on MWDA is set to have you buy the WK figures and toys and leaves the CBT miniatures in the dust...please show us anything beyond the MWDA RS that supports intergration of CBT into the MWDA setting... So you ask, so you shall receive. Let me point you to resources that completely trump the RS:MWDA. 1) They're free of Clicktech bias. In fact, they're open for use with any game system, not just CBT and Clicktech. 2) Not only are they free of Clicktech bias, but they're FREE, and canon. 3) They have a bigger and more detailed planetary atlas than anything ever published for CBT, with 250 planets. Most planet entries provide a larger description of the planet than found in published CBT atlases, including the planet's history, and history of the planet during the Jihad. Two sections (Prefectures VI and VII, 24 and 26 planets respectively) were not completed, so of the 250 planets, "only" 200 have those backgrounds. 4) They provided faction historical backgrounds starting from the founding of a faction to the MWDA. 5) Did I mention they're free? 6) Did I mention they don't have a Clicktech bias? They'll work with CBT just fine. The following items provide the background fluff that would help game play. Further integration of the MWDA setting only needs the Battletech Master Rules (I recommend the revised edition), and optionally Aerotech 2 (I recommend waiting for the revised edition). Map. Click on a planet for details. Note Prefectures VI and VII are not complete, but the other 8 (with 200 planets by my count) are fully detailed. Also note you can get details on the warring factions on the right side of the map. Fifty-Two "Historical" Articles on MWDA. Or, that's 52 if I recalled my Roman numerals correctly. LII articles anyway. Brief Timeline But you're not going to get a TOO detailed timeline of the Jihad because, hey, that's going to be CBT's bread and butter in the upcoming years, right? Home Page to all that Information Like I said, that was all written by CBT writers. Randall had some sort of oversight role (because he approved/rejected suggested changes I made), Herb was writing quite a few of the planets and Touring the Stars articles, and I know Warner contributed some planetary details (because he came to me for technical advice on wrecking a planet in the Jihad). They're all involved in the latest CBT products, too. If you have any rules questions about using CBT in MWDA, ask me. I've got my BMR, AT2, and MW:RPG handy, but it's very easy. You read the background material (and RS:MWDA) to get an idea of the units fighting (just like you would when setting up a battle in any other BT era), then you use CBT maps, CBT rule books, CBT minis/counters, and CBT record sheets, just like any other CBT game. What problems were you having with using CBT in MWDA? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon. Edited by Cray (01/22/04 11:04 AM)
tgsofgc 01/22/04 04:33 PM 67.4.199.151	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply He was talking about future releases that will bring the "Dark Ages" setting more into classic battletech like the record sheets, though he doesn't plan to buy the MWDA game made by wizkids. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Gangrene 01/22/04 11:38 PM 24.6.228.14	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I think Karagin is right in that there is not much support for integration of the two games, although I'm not sure why you would really want any. What is available, such as the large scale battle rules and the RS:MWDA are more aimed at using MWDA minis in a CBT setting. Going the other direction is not really an option since the MWDA business plan is centered around the game being collectable. The sources you cited, Cray, are just fluff and lacking in anything substantial, such as rule conversions or scenario packs. Cray has a good point in that there really isn't much needed to make a CBT game in the MWDA setting. The fluff is readily avaliable. If you're trying to play a MWDA game with CBT minis you're out of luck, though. Gangrene
Cray 01/23/04 05:50 AM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The sources you cited, Cray, are just fluff and lacking in anything substantial, such as rule conversions or scenario packs. Well, yeah. That's what you need to get started: fluff to pick factions, set up a campaign, and fight. After that, you just need CBT rules. There's no conversions involved. Quote: Cray has a good point in that there really isn't much needed to make a CBT game in the MWDA setting. The fluff is readily avaliable. If you're trying to play a MWDA game with CBT minis you're out of luck, though. I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean use CBT minis in a Clicktech game, or use CBT minis in a CBT game set in the MWDA? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/23/04 08:01 AM 195.238.38.73	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Okay makes sense... Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/23/04 08:12 AM 195.238.38.73	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply We are in a better camp now and I have some time while we settle in... Interesting sites. What I was aiming at was things like scenario packs all done up similar to the older books that covered the events from the novels like the Luthien Scenario packs etc... The rules to use MWDA mechs in BT are there...yes anyone who has the BMR-R can get those. But again I point out there is nothing to allow you to take the game the other way. Yes one can sit down and make the battles up for CBT but nothing they do is offical or canon for the game...and given that some of the "fluff" has the uberhero syndrome it's kind of hard to get that in a BT game with minatures and such. And again wanting a miniatures game not a RPG one shouldn't need 4 books to play it either. Given the point system and such that MWDA uses how can you actually get a fair battle in CBT with out causing one side or the other to have more advantages do to the BV or tonage differences? Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/23/04 09:16 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: We are in a better camp now and I have some time while we settle in... Cool. I'm all about creature comforts, so a better camp sounds like good news to me. Quote: What I was aiming at was things like scenario packs all done up similar to the older books that covered the events from the novels like the Luthien Scenario packs etc... As I understand, scenario packs are consistently money pits. No one, FASA or other game companies for other games, ever makes money off them. They just don't sell in adequate numbers. However, it'd be easy to put up some on-line scenarios, wouldn't it? I'll see if I can inspire someone to move in that direction. I know just now the core writers are up to their ears with new CBT projects; we (playtesters) just got done with a cycle of comments on several drafts, and now the writers are trying to incorporate the comments. Quote: Given the point system and such that MWDA uses how can you actually get a fair battle in CBT with out causing one side or the other to have more advantages do to the BV or tonage differences? I think you're trying too hard on the conversion, but (honestly) correct me if this doesn't work for you: Ignore the MWDA point system - you're playing CBT, not Clicktech. If you want a balanced CBT battle, select CBT units according to BV or tonnage or whatever other CBT method you favor. If I was trying to convert a Clicktech scenario to CBT, I'd just start by noting roughly which mechs, infantry, and out units the canon sides have, pick their rough CBT equivalents out of a CBT TR/RS, and then pad out the two sides to get the BV balance I wanted. It's a lot like setting up any normal CBT game. Or were you thinking of something else? Quote: But again I point out there is nothing to allow you to take the game the other way. How do you mean? Use Clickbase minis to play out pre-MWDA scenarios, like the invasion of the Clans? Or use BT minis with Clickbase rules? Quote: Yes one can sit down and make the battles up for CBT but nothing they do is offical or canon for the game... Is this a problem? I don't think I've ever fought a canon battle in CBT, from 3025 onward. The games that weren't just quick "pick up" games where everybody got X tons to build a force with were usually games in a home scenario involving homemade units fighting homemade campaigns. Even CBT scenario packs give options for victories that do not match the canon outcomes listed in subsequent sourcebooks - when you fight the Battle for Luthien, you can have the Clans win. When you take a custom unit built with Merc unit creation rules filled with new mechs built (or customized) according to the BMR's construction rules...exactly how much canon do you want? I always just hit the House sourcebooks and Field Manuals to determine who reasonable defenders were, applied the affects (if any) of the ongoing campaign, and let the battles roll. Not very canon at all, but that's half the fun of running your own game - you're not chained to the way things are written, especially if things are written in a way you don't like. I know I don't replay the Clan invasion to let the Clans win as much as they did. Karagin, hypothesizing that you get the Jihad sourcebook, would you use it to play out the Jihad as written, or to have fun stomping WoBblies before they got out of hand? Or would you use it to find the roots of the Jihad and abort the Jihad all together? Quote: and given that some of the "fluff" has the uberhero syndrome it's kind of hard to get that in a BT game with minatures and such. Fair 'nuff. Here's my half-thought-out plan for playing CBT in MWDA: 1) Pick a new House military unit that hasn't been described in MWDA yet, or make a Merc unit in House employ. This avoids the problems of trying to match canon units and canon heroes. 2) As the GM/campaign writer, have the House declare the RotS is in a state of chaos, threatening the well-being of its inhabitants. Therefore, the House must "stabilize the situation" pending "resolution of the problems at hand." (Later, the House can declare the RotS's claim over the planets is null and void, but one step at a time. Gotta win first.) The plot's established, now for the details. 3) Select several planets from the Interactive Map that do not have listed battles or factions on them. Again, this avoids the trouble with canon. 4) Give the planets appropriate defenders, probably determined by referencing RS:MWDA, maybe by just using CBT Technical Readouts. With the military stagnation of MWDA, you can just use old TRs and RSs, after all. 5) Go. See. Conquer...er, stabilize the troubled planets. 6) Figure by the time the planets are conquered, the military-political situation in the surrounding RotS worlds has altered so much that canon defenders and whatnot are no longer accurate, due to redeployments. Go back and repeat steps 3, 4, and 5, but now feeling free to involve planets with known canon TO&Es because the defenders have probably changed. Quote: And again wanting a miniatures game not a RPG one shouldn't need 4 books to play it either. You only need the BMR for that, whether its set in 3025, 3067, or 3130. After all, if you're just playing a wargame without any of the trappings of factions and plot, you can say it's whatever date you want. The roleplaying aspects like faction and background don't matter much, do they? If they do...well, hey, I use upwards of a dozen CBT books to plot out a campaign. The Technical Readouts account for most of those, and the Field Manuals and House Sourcebooks add more. When game play begins, I just need one or two: BMR and maybe AT2. What four books were you thinking of would be needed to play CBT in the MWDA setting? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/23/04 12:59 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply This comment on Scenario packs was just posted on www.classicbattletech.com 's Ask the Writer forum: Quote: Re: To Those Who Write the Scenario Packs [re: Sarge] I serioiusly doubt we'll ever do a conventional scenario pack again - they just don't sell, especially when compared to the other products we put out. But, yeah, that could be an interesting idea to do at a con sometime. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris "Bones" Trossen Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Gangrene 01/23/04 09:35 PM 24.6.228.14	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Well, yeah. That's what you need to get started: fluff to pick factions, set up a campaign, and fight. After that, you just need CBT rules. There's no conversions involved. Yup, there's not much required. I am not sure what Karagin has in mind for them to make. Really, you don't even need much fluff. A couple of snibbets like what was in the Btech v2 manual would do. Quote: I'm not sure I follow. Do you mean use CBT minis in a Clicktech game, or use CBT minis in a CBT game set in the MWDA? The former. Karagin is right in that all material out that relates the two products promote the purchasing of MWDA minis over Battletech minis. After all, you don't see any conversions for CBT mechs into DA mechs. Gangrene
Cray 01/23/04 10:31 PM 24.27.227.23	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The former. Karagin is right in that all material out that relates the two products promote the purchasing of MWDA minis over Battletech minis. After all, you don't see any conversions for CBT mechs into DA mechs. Yabbut...would you want to? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Gangrene 01/23/04 11:04 PM 24.6.228.14	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Me? No. Others? Maybe. Gangrene
Karagin 01/25/04 11:45 AM 195.238.39.137	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply As I said the last time this came up that is a load of BS. If that was true then there would be NO Canned D&D scenario books and adventures and the same would hold true for games like Hackmaster and such. So once again FP and WK have either mistaked one market area for the whole of the BT community or they saw one scenario books sales be lower then they wanted and thus up comes the idea that these books don't sell. What's next? Novels don't sell? Oh wait they already did that to BT. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/25/04 11:58 AM 195.238.39.137	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Okay here Cray you are incorrect. Comstar had mech factories. They made mechs. Simplely read the ComStar Sourcebook, yes I know the older ones are so full of Errors and all, that is if you buy into Nystul's comments and all that. In that book it clearly states that Terra was still capable of making mechs and ComStar did have an army to support. So the idea that they didn't have an industrail base is pure BS. Given that I am in a postion to see HOW a full scale logistical operation works, there is NO WAY that WoB could keep all of the levels of their UBER-ARMY secrete. Paper trails would show up as would questions about why 300 medium lasers where order but never arrived etc...sorry but on this one both FASA and now WK and FP have really dropped the ball and never got it back. I can't wait to see what load of crap they spin to cover this one...right now the cost alone, again based of printed and canon info, of a single mech lance is a lot and when you get into keeping one up and running you are looking at lots of money, and that is for someone who isn't trying to hide things. So this is one more strike against the Jihad and the MWDA setting. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/25/04 12:04 PM 195.238.39.137	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The four books you mentioned is what I am refering to. All one should need to play a BT game is the BMR-R. Everything else is footnotes or simple notes nothing more. It may not be hard to do a scenario up from the MWDA text but again given that some of the events are written into happening a certain way it will still be hard to recreate via CBT. Like the WMDs and such. IF I get the Jihad books then it will ONLY to be show support for CBT and that alone. I will not support BT once it ends up reaching the MWDA time line and given that no one in my group has any disere to play MWDA in any setting we won't be playing canon BT any more and given that we have our own BT universe to play in, the lose isn't that big of a deal for us. What is a lose is the end of a classic game like BT and it's end as a toy-collecting childs game that can be found at uber-markets like Meijers and such is really sad. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/25/04 12:58 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Okay here Cray you are incorrect. Comstar had mech factories. They made mechs. Simplely read the ComStar Sourcebook Karagin, you misread me. I did not say, "Comstar never had mech factories." I'm well aware Comstar had mech factories on Terra. After all, WoB builds its mechs in those former Comstar factories. Quote: Paper trails would show up as would questions about why 300 medium lasers where order but never arrived etc... First, WoB got about half the Comguards. They simply defected from Comstar to WoB. That "secret" Army was well known to everyone and their mother. After all, WoB conquered Terra with it (and with other defectors in Comstar ranks, like those on Terra). Second, it was well known WoB had Terra. Comstar knew all the mech factories on Terra. Later, it was well known that WoB took the Titan Shipyards (again, with insiders in Comstar ranks at the shipyards). Comstar knew what those were capable of, too. Third, once in possession of Terra, WoB did not need to be ultra-secret about its construction of an army, because so few people were allowed to visit Terra, and because interstellar communications are not as open or high bandwidth as those of modern Earth. Terra wasn't open and easily accessible like borders are today. Jumpship visits are few and easily tracked, unlike millions of annual ground and air border crossings today. Communications only leave through the bottlenecks of HPGs rather than being broadcast all over the planet. Fourth, WoB didn't need to make military arms shipments go missing. It had Terra. As you pointed out, that had a lot of military factories. Reading the TRs, they even have some of the original Mackie factories on Terra. Fifth, WoB didn't do a perfect job of hiding its paper trails off Terra. It was found out in the FWL, for example. Sixth, WoB did not have a BIG military by the time it kicked off the Jihad. It relied on rebellion and wars between neighbors, and WMDs. But, why do you think everyone would watch WoB waiting for a big Jihad? WoB was attracting a lot of the peaceful mystics from Comstar who were disenfranchised by Comstar's secularism. There weren't fatwa's flying around left and right in WoB, demanding blood of the unbelievers. Sure, it's prudent to keep an eye on them, but they weren't as dangerous as, say, the Clans. WoB's building a military? Ok, that's nice. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon. Edited by Cray (01/25/04 01:10 PM)
Cray 01/25/04 01:00 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: As I said the last time this came up that is a load of BS. I will be happy to believe you if you present the FASA/Fanpro sales information backing that statement. A comparison of BT to DnD is not adequate "proof." Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/25/04 01:36 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: I will not support BT once it ends up reaching the MWDA time line and given that no one in my group has any disere to play MWDA in any setting we won't be playing canon BT any more and given that we have our own BT universe to play in, the lose isn't that big of a deal for us. Fair 'nuff. You see how many alternate timelines I churn out. Sometimes I'd like to crank the clock back to the 3030s and have that decade turn out "right." Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tgsofgc 01/25/04 03:34 PM 67.4.201.251	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: But, why do you think everyone would watch WoB waiting for a big Jihad? WoB was attracting a lot of the peaceful mystics from Comstar who were disenfranchised by Comstar's secularism. There weren't fatwa's flying around left and right in WoB, demanding blood of the unbelievers. Sure, it's prudent to keep an eye on them, but they weren't as dangerous as, say, the Clans. WoB's building a military? Ok, that's nice. Of course by now you'd think that everyone in the Inner Sphere would kno0w to never trust anyone who controls Terra. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Cray 01/25/04 03:52 PM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Of course by now you'd think that everyone in the Inner Sphere would kno0w to never trust anyone who controls Terra. ROFL! You might have a point there. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/26/04 02:44 AM 62.128.179.3	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply First WoB goes from being a splinter group to this mega player in the IS with Uber abilites in a matter of a few years, sorry but that is not likely even in the BT universe. Second, their army was NO WHERE near the size of the ComGuard even with the Defections. I can't find anything in the ComStar Sourcebook about half of the Guard going over to the WoB...could please give a page number that shows this and the FM on the WoB doesn't show this either so where is this info of them getting half of the Guard to be found? Third, having taken Terra through decpection and use of tratiors and spies is one thing, taking it via a direct military assault is another. WoB didn't the forces to take on Terra's defenses so they used other methods. Fourth, having Terra gives them roughly a dozen or so factories to make weapons and mechs. Fine add that to their ONE planet in FWL and you really don't have the setup for much of anything. But yet we are to believe that because they where skimming monies and such from the FWL that they have the man power to pilot the mechs they bought or made and they have the money to feed, house, transport and train these same troops. Once again this part the actually cost is forgetten about BTPTB and thus makes hash of all of the rest of the uber-army of WoB. Fifth, again how can a group that was up until the TPTB changed things, fighting among themselves manage to pull of anything with out some one selling the other out to gain a better footing for their faction? I find it very funny that this part was forgotten about by TPTB. Why would any one be watching the WoB...let's see MI units in all of the Houses would be watch everyone and everything. Someone would have seen the signs and given that even Victor and his buddies watched them via his role as PM, I find it hard to believe that all of his spies and such would miss things like this. Fifth, have you actually looked at the cost of a mech? We are to believe that WoB bought first run productions of a lot of the refits done to the Unseen in lance and company size elements and yet could keep doing this while again feeding and training and transporting both the mechs and the men needed to pilot and fix these machines from one end of the IS to the other. Sorry but that's a tad hard to believe and thus shoots another hole into this plot line. Overall the idea of WoB going from a splinter group to IS power house is not well thought out and seems to be rushed to the point that one is left wondering why and then seeing the MWDA setting we get the why, but it still leaves the lack of credibitly and believabilty sitting in the dust. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/26/04 02:51 AM 62.128.179.3	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Quote: As I said the last time this came up that is a load of BS. I will be happy to believe you if you present the FASA/Fanpro sales information backing that statement. A comparison of BT to DnD is not adequate "proof." Not adequate? BOTH games used scenario packs to give the players the chance to enter act in the offical settings for the respective games. IF the comment that scenario packs don't sell is true then explain HOW other compaines can keep putting them out and they seem to have no worries about their abilty to sell? Again I ask you, what market figures did FASA look at (and now Wk/FP) to get their idea that they don't sell? Every hobby shop i have been in Michigan either sold out of ALL BT material with in a week of it hitting the shelves and that is also with FASA's and FP's know lateness and delays. So again could you please find out where they came up with the thinking that these don't sell. I own every single scenario book out there for BT and have made the pains to get a couple that I missed when money was tight back in the late 80s, and given that just about everyone I know who plays BT has all of the scenario books I find the comment that they dont sell to be a very weak one to go on. If that was the case, then cassette tapes wouldn't still be around given the popularity of CDs. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Nightward 01/26/04 03:52 AM 203.134.46.193	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply We know you are passionate about the game of BattleTech. We also know that you dislike MW: DA. However, the way you have conducted your side of the "debate" - by initiating personal attacks (including calling other posters here "liars") and posting what can only be described as flames is simply unnacceptable. Your viewpoint is welcome. Your continued lack of regard for your fellow posters is not. I have contacted Slayer to watch this thread. If you wish to continue the debate, please do so with proper respect to your fellow posters and to the rules of the board. Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Cray 01/26/04 06:23 AM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: However, the way you have conducted your side of the "debate" - by initiating personal attacks (including calling other posters here "liars") and posting what can only be described as flames is simply unnacceptable. To be fair, are you sure that wasn't me? I did say he was lying at points. I haven't read Karagin's most recent posts, but he was doing pretty well the past few days; I erred earlier. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/26/04 06:31 AM 68.200.106.169	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Comparing BT to DnD doesn't work - different game cultures. Quote: Again I ask you, what market figures did FASA look at (and now Wk/FP) to get their idea that they don't sell? I would guess the total numbers of books sold vs. the total number printed, or something similar. I would also guess Chris Trossen has access to such numbers, while you and I do not. Or do you, in fact, have access to profit/loss and published/sold numbers on BT products straight from FanPro/FASA? A sample from a few game stores and personal experience doesn't count. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/26/04 08:52 AM 195.238.39.137	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: We know you are passionate about the game of BattleTech. We also know that you dislike MW: DA. However, the way you have conducted your side of the "debate" - by initiating personal attacks (including calling other posters here "liars") and posting what can only be described as flames is simply unnacceptable. Your viewpoint is welcome. Your continued lack of regard for your fellow posters is not. I have contacted Slayer to watch this thread. If you wish to continue the debate, please do so with proper respect to your fellow posters and to the rules of the board. Exuse me? Pleae show me where I called anyone a liar or attacked anyone. I have asked Cray give more info on his side of the debate and while I have sounded a tad or two on the push to my point across I don't recall attacking anyone or name calling or even insulting. So could you please show me where I have done this so I can look back at it and see said actions. And as Cray said are you not confusing me for him on this one? Last I looked Cray and I where debating Scenario packs and their ability to sell or not sell. So far we are talking with nothing more then normal tones as far as I can see. I don't see anything even close to what has gone on before between folks around here. I think prehaps you may have jumped the gun a tad bit? Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/26/04 08:58 AM 195.238.39.137	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Comparing BT to DnD doesn't work - different game cultures. How so? They are both games driven by sourcebooks and supported materials and such. How can they be different given the level of cross over that players of each have with the other. It is hard not to find a D&D player who hasn't at one time or another played BT and vise versa. Quote: I would guess the total numbers of books sold vs. the total number printed, or something similar. Okay these would be interesting to see and compare. { Quote: I would also guess Chris Trossen has access to such numbers, while you and I do not. Or do you, in fact, have access to profit/loss and published/sold numbers on BT products straight from FanPro/FASA? A sample from a few game stores and personal experience doesn't count. Personal experience doesn't count? I see. So going into a know chain of hobby stores and seeing what they have and don't have isn't a good way to judge things...okay. And for someone to say they don't sell and leave it at that is better then given an explanation that explains things and tells us why they don't sell and with said offering maybe someone could come up with a way to make them sell better since again I point other game companies seem to have no problem with the pregen secanario books and adventures selling to the fans. So do you see where I am going with this and coming from here? Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/26/04 09:20 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I think it was a case of jumping the gun. Just seeing a Jihad/MWDA thread is enough to make most people cringe for fear of flames. If a mod talks to you, let us know in this thread. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/26/04 01:27 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I'll open with this: WoB will start the Jihad when it is vastly outnumbered, and the force ratio will not change in its favor. Quote: First WoB goes from being a splinter group to this mega player in the IS with Uber abilites in a matter of a few years, sorry but that is not likely even in the BT universe. Why do you think WoB was a small splinter group? It had enough clout to take Terra - both militarily, and enough pull in Comstar. That's not just a little splinter group. Also, you said "a few years." Exactly how many years was it from WoBs founding to the Jihad? Quote: Second, their army was NO WHERE near the size of the ComGuard even with the Defections In 3062 (FM:Comstar), correct. My bad. WoB had 10 divisions (20 regiments), Comstar had 50 divisions. In 3067, Comstar would loose 4 divisions and have a couple more roughed up in the FCCW, which inspired some defections to WoB. More importantly, there were plenty of Comguards ready to talk to their old WoB buddies. Comguards were not impressed with Precentor Martial Victor Steiner-Davion using the Comguards in the Civil War. However, the 3067 WoB strength is unknown, just the 3062 strength is known. With Terra in WoB's possession for at least 5 more years (plus a decade-plus in the Jihad), that's a non-trivial advantage. See below. Quote: WoB didn't the forces to take on Terra's defenses so they used other methods WoB military units were certainly present, per the Fall of Terra SB. However, yes, WoB did not have the strength to directly conquer Terra. Good thing for WoB, too, or else it might've damaged all that industrial capacity. Quote: Fourth, having Terra gives them roughly a dozen or so factories to make weapons and mechs. Fine add that to their ONE planet in FWL and you really don't have the setup for much of anything. A dozen or so factories on Terra is about the same as a whole House. I mean, just in sheer numbers of factories, that's more mech factories than the Capellans had in 3025. When you begin to touch on the industrial capacity of a high Star League-era military factory... In the late 2400s, with much more primitive industrial facilities than WoB/Terra has, the Hegemony was able to build 5000 Banshees in a decade (while building other mech designs simultaneously). WoB has the finest Star League-era factories of Terra. Terra gives WoB a planet that was undamaged by the Succession Wars, a technologically literate and capable population that is about 5 times what the Clans had pre-Invasion, and a whole industrial base on one planet, not scattered across 30-odd planets like the Clans' home worlds. Terra had so much industrial plenty and technological competency that, according to the Comstar SB or Fall of Terra (I ferget which), every personal car was fusion powered. In the end, WoB isn't going to have a whole House's military, and when facing 5 Houses and the Clans in conventional warfare, it's screwed. However, to begin with, it's spent time asking its personnel to keep touch with all its old buddies in the Comguards ("Man, I'm stationed in the ass end of the universe, and it's on humanity's homeworld. Where are you stationed? It's gotta be better than here. You're in Fort Focht on Waythehelloutthere? Fort Focht...that's at latitude 163, longitude 33, right? Nevermind, forget I asked, forget I asked. It's not like I was getting coordinates to flyby and drop a nuke on you or anything. Ha-Ha.") WoB, of course, also has access to foreign factories - it can place orders for equipment like any customer, either as WoB or under an assumed identity. I'll be interested to see what the final force numbers of WoB is when the Jihad kicks off. Also, WoB has a lot more than one planet in the FWL. It has a fraction of the FWL's whole budget - it was skimming money out of the budget with Fake Thomas's aid. This enables WoB to buy equipment (and hire mercs) from all over the Inner Sphere, giving it an effectively much larger industrial base. I'll conclude with this: WoB will start the Jihad when it is vastly outnumbered, and the force ratio will not change in its favor. Perhaps you could give us some pointers on how a small BT military force could inspire warfare across the Inner Sphere, Karagin, in the hopes of knocking humanity back into a new stone age. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Silenced_Sonix 01/26/04 02:03 PM 168.209.97.34	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Thank God, somebody who talks sense! Cray just gave us all a very detailed description of exactly what WoB did and did not do, though I am sure many of you (me included) are still "disgruntled" at the bungled way in which first FASA, and now WizKids and FanPro handled the situation. By having semi-pointless arguments and getting our blood up about something we cannot do anything about, is sheer foolishness. I know I am not a mod or anything like that, but I would discourage flames - I have first-hand experience of how badly wrong something like that usually ends. Peace out, and everybody just CHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLL..... Evolve or Die
Nightward 01/27/04 12:49 AM 203.134.42.195	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Aff. In my own over-zealous attempt to defend the sacred peace of the board, I over-reacted myself. However, my points still stand. Keep it pleasant, gentlemen. Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Karagin 01/27/04 11:21 AM 217.26.84.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Once again I ask you since you have again skipped it, WHERE did they get their man power from to pilot all of the mechs? Even with defections and such, they still don't have the manpower to come close to being the threat we are led to believe. Yes they hold Terra and yes they have SL factories, but again I ask you where are they getting the funding to actually do everything they are doing and not have some one trip over their little game of hide the mech regiment? Yes they have some money from the FWL...but last time offically anything was said about their FWL holdings was to list only Gibson and that was it. So again where is it that they have half or more of the FWL supporting them? Even with all the money they can skim from the FWL and from their HPG stations, it still doesn't cover the cost of feeding, transporting, paying, clothing, maintaining and basic support for the army they are building. Point of fact, the Project Phoniex TRO shows that ComStar was aware of what the WoB was doing, ie the buying of all the mechs...now are you saying that they didn't pass that one to their allies or make moves to stop or monitor further these things? Yes ComStar lost units but I doubt very much if every swing dick in the units that left ComStar went over to the WoB. As for them being a splinter group again I point you to the ComStar Sourcebook and the FM ComStar. As well as how they are written in several of the novels, granted that the novels aren't cannon to the point that it's like opening a sourcebook. So can you please tell us how WoB got it's manpower to come close to being able to have the needed numbers to even launch their Jihad? How about you show us Cray how a small unit can afford to do all of what TPTB have claimed WoB has done in the last 10 years (plus or minus 5 years) and not have bells going off in the intelligence communites of all of the House and ComStar.... Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/27/04 11:31 AM 217.26.84.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Aff. In my own over-zealous attempt to defend the sacred peace of the board, I over-reacted myself. However, my points still stand. Keep it pleasant, gentlemen. So far things are civil. With the minor expection of one posting and that wasn't turned into anything beyond the intial posting by either of us. Yes the topic is touchy and yes Cray is doing well on defending the MWDA side and yes I am doing my best to point out the areas that a lot of folks bring up and areas I my self have problems with. Now maybe I am applying way to much real life thinking into the game universe, but given that up until recently the game hadn't pushed the borders of believbilty to the point that they 100% break and leave folks wondering as to what happen. I am sorry if you feel Cray and I are not being Civil, but I do say this is a lot calmer and more respectful then any of the heated debeats between Bob and my self too name one set of Flame Wars that have happen around here. I am doing my best not over react and so far I think I have done well on that front. Now if I sound like I am being curt on the topic, then I am sorry but I am trying to get my point over in limited time span with limited means do to where I am at currently. I will work on not being curt to the point it hurts to read it but I stand by what I have said before on the MWDA topic, it's poorly thought out and badly protrayed plot line. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/27/04 02:55 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Once again I ask you since you have again skipped it, WHERE did they get their man power from to pilot all of the mechs? Oops, overlooked that question. Well, WoB got the manpower to man 10 divisions when...well, the 10 divisions defected from Comstar. That gave WoB a core of veteran troops to train new recruits, and WoB has some excellent training facilities (WAM, Sandhurst, etc.) Given the ~15 years between WoB's formation and the Jihad, it has more than enough time to double its forces, double them again, and double them again, figuring on a 5-year training cycle for fresh mechwarriors. (They don't actually have 80 divisions when the Jihad begins...I don't think...but I'm just giving an example of mobilization. WoB has the time and a core of vets to do it.) Further, WoB has recruitment offices everywhere - it IS an organization with millions of employees operating postal and courier services, civic aid, and the high profile HPGs in the FWL, CC, and elsewhere. All those offices are great places to be on the lookout for raw recruits or veteran mechwarriors down on their luck and looking for a change. Offices on Galatea would be able to filter and pickup all those mechwarriors from failed merc units. (What's the number? 90% of merc units fail in the first year? 2/3?) Finally, they have Terra, population 6 billion. What's it take to man 100 mech regiments? 10,800 mechwarriors? You don't need any of those recruiting facilities in the FWL or elsewhere if you tap the Terran labor pool. Finding 1 million recruits on a planet that has its telecommunications and media controlled by WoB should be easy. The US military is able to get several million employees out of a much smaller labor pool, yes? And, hey, WoB inherited a Comstar-run government that's older than US - Terrans have been addled with Blake's message for over two hundred years... Quote: Yes they hold Terra and yes they have SL factories, but again I ask you where are they getting the funding to actually do everything they are doing and not have some one trip over their little game of hide the mech regiment? Yes they have some money from the FWL...but last time offically anything was said about their FWL holdings was to list only Gibson and that was it. So again where is it that they have half or more of the FWL supporting them? ...half or more of the FWL is not supporting them, but Gibson is a trivial holding in the FWL compared to WoB's other FWL asset: the Fake Thomas Marik. WoB was getting a percentage of the FWL's budget. The central government's annual budget of taxes from ~400 worlds was being skimmed by WoB, an act allowed and hidden by the Fake Thomas Marik. (This ended when the Fake Thomas Marik found WoB was taking close to double what he had aggreed to, IIRC. But that ended in, IIRC, 3067.) Now, you have to admit that's not "some money." That's a whole lot of cash. Figure the FWL (Average income ~2000 C-bills, per Marik SB), population ~1 trillion, pays 10% of their wages as taxes to the central government (Americans should be so lucky...we're up to 30% between local and federal, I think). Figure WoB is skimming 1% of that. That's 2 trillion C-bills going into WoB coffers annually. For the sake of argument, price out 50 "divisions" (100 regiments) of 25 million C-bill, 100-ton, XL-powered assault mechs: 270 billion C-bills, or 13.5% of the total budget. (WoB won't have 100 regiments of assault mechs, but the point stands: it doesn't take much skimming from the FWL budget to get a lot of cash, enough to replace whole House militaries.) Quote: As for them being a splinter group again I point you to the ComStar Sourcebook and the FM ComStar. A group that controls Terra, runs all the HPGs in the FWL, some HPGs in the Periphery and Capellan Confederation, and has ~20 mech regiments is probably not what you'd call a splinter group, Karagin. (I'd still call them a splinter group, but we seem to be using the terms differently. They splintered off of Comstar. A very big splinter, to be sure, with fully 20% of the initial strength of Comstar.) Quote: How about you show us Cray how a small unit can afford to do all of what TPTB have claimed WoB has done in the last 10 years (plus or minus 5 years) and not have bells going off in the intelligence communites of all of the House and ComStar.... Have you considered that many people are well aware of WoB's growing strength? I suggest once again considering that WoB does not have a lot of "fatwa" e-mails flying around its organization. Sure, a lot of its personnel mutter blasphemy this and heresy that, and put sugar in the gas tanks of Comstar cars, but what naughty things has WoB done to make itself look Eeeveelll in the eyes of many intel groups? Expanding a military is not itself Evil. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Nightward 01/27/04 10:48 PM 203.134.41.99	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply For what it's worth, Karagin, I completely agree with you. Unfortunately I also tend to be somewhat sarcastic and short with people when discussing things I loathe with all my being, so I find it's better to stay away from commenting on ideas etc that I actively dislike. That's why my only contribution to this thread was factual information rather than my opinions Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Karagin 01/29/04 02:01 AM 217.26.84.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply He gave his idea of what they did...so far we don't know all the facts about the events and thus everything is still full of holes and problems. Again I point out that the issues of man power are ignored when this topic comes out, the full finanical issues are covered by those who defend the MWDA setting with comments like "Well they have Terra and the money they got from the FWL." Yet nothing is even mentioned of all the cost of the mechs, the ammo, the fuel, the transportation of the troops and the mechs and all the other things that go with the problems of building army and given that UNTIL they took Terra they had to do all of it sercet and even then they still had to keep a large chunk of their stuff hidden and way from the prying else of the IS and other groups. So what Cray has given us is a brief outline of things and NOTHING with concrete facts that explains away all the holes and problems of the Jihad and WoB's rise from splinter group that fought among it's self to Uber power. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/29/04 02:10 AM 217.26.84.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Again I point out that even with the money from the FWL and their HPGs things are not goiing to be as simple as you are trying to make them. The cost alone of keeping the mechs they have running and supplied is going eat a lot of that money and then the need to keep all of their stuff OUT of the prying eyes of the IS Intell Agencies is going to cut into that pool of money. Along with basic daily needs of the troops and other members of WoB the money won't be there. 10 Divisions...okay that still doesn't give them the numbers to man all of the mechs they are said to be buying and it still doesn't give them the numbers to even come close to doing anything. So again I ask where are these troops coming from? Do the WoBs have iron wombs like the Clans? Or someother cloning factory? Even recuriting and such doesn't give you large numbers over night. It takes anywhere from 6 months to a year to train a soldier fully in their MOS, I don't see that changing even in BT's time frame. And given that sites to train troops cost lots of money there goes another drain on the uberfund of the WoB. So far I am not convinced by any of these ideas you have put out to defend the MWDA plot line and while I do thank you for the attempt, it's just to full of holes and inconsitites for me. So this in my opinion is another showing of FASA/Wk/FP droping the ball and going off half cocked with a story line. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/29/04 02:14 AM 217.26.84.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I am trying not to turn things into something it's not. You know full well my stand on this topic. I am just asking for folks to not blindly stumble into the MWDA setting with out first asking a lot of questions and making sure that TPTB know that we the fans aren't going to blindly follow them into something that falls flat and leave more questions then it does answers and causes us to lose the game as we know it in favor a collectiable based he who spends the most wins kind of game. I am sorry if my questions are not what is wanted to be heard but I like others feel that we have gotten to the point that the BT community is something that can support several story lines and need not have just one. So thank you for watching out and coming forward to prevent a flame war and all. Best to stop things befroe they start. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/29/04 08:21 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The cost alone of keeping the mechs they have running and supplied is going eat a lot of that money No, it's not. Do you want me to break out numbers from a Merc handbook? The annual maintenance cost of 1000 (one thousand) mech regiments about be about 1.2 billion C-bills (assuming 1000 CB/mech/month; I think it's actually 250 CB/month), which is pocket change for any major planetary government. The annual wages of 108,000 mechwarriors would be about 10 billion C-bills but, again, that's pocket change. Ammo expenditures in training might be expensive, but figuring a ton of LRM-Artemis ammo (expensive stuff) per month per mech out of 100 regiments (still more than WoB has), that's only 6.5 billion CB. WoB has far less than 1000 mech regiments. A more reasonable number of mech regiments (50) would slash maintainence, labor, and ammo expenditures to just 4 billion CB a year out of potentially the better part of a 2 trillion CB budget (that's 2 trillion CB if the FWL's average income and tax rates are minimized, and WoB's percentage of the take is reduced to 1/5th canon). Quote: 10 Divisions...okay that still doesn't give them the numbers to man all of the mechs they are said to be buying and it still doesn't give them the numbers to even come close to doing anything. So again I ask where are these troops coming from? Do the WoBs have iron wombs like the Clans? Or someother cloning factory? ... Even recuriting and such doesn't give you large numbers over night. Even recuriting and such doesn't give you large numbers over night. It takes anywhere from 6 months to a year to train a soldier fully in their MOS, I don't see that changing even in BT's time frame. And given that sites to train troops cost lots of money there goes another drain on the uberfund of the WoB. In the following reposted reply, note that I already have addressed: 1) Time to mobilize the WoB troops (~15 years, not "over night") 2) Available recruits (6 billion people exposed to Blakist doctrines for ~250 years) 3) Training facilities 4) Training times (I allowed 5 years, not 6mo-1yr) Well, WoB got the manpower to man 10 divisions when...well, the 10 divisions defected from Comstar. That gave WoB a core of veteran troops to train new recruits, and WoB has some excellent training facilities (WAM, Sandhurst, etc.) Given the ~15 years between WoB's formation and the Jihad, it has more than enough time to double its forces, double them again, and double them again, figuring on a 5-year training cycle for fresh mechwarriors. (They don't actually have 80 divisions when the Jihad begins...I don't think...but I'm just giving an example of mobilization. WoB has the time and a core of vets to do it.) Further, WoB has recruitment offices everywhere - it IS an organization with millions of employees operating postal and courier services, civic aid, and the high profile HPGs in the FWL, CC, and elsewhere. All those offices are great places to be on the lookout for raw recruits or veteran mechwarriors down on their luck and looking for a change. Offices on Galatea would be able to filter and pickup all those mechwarriors from failed merc units. (What's the number? 90% of merc units fail in the first year? 2/3?) Finally, they have Terra, population 6 billion. What's it take to man 100 mech regiments? 10,800 mechwarriors? You don't need any of those recruiting facilities in the FWL or elsewhere if you tap the Terran labor pool. Finding 1 million recruits on a planet that has its telecommunications and media controlled by WoB should be easy. The US military is able to get several million employees out of a much smaller labor pool, yes? And, hey, WoB inherited a Comstar-run government that's older than US - Terrans have been addled with Blake's message for over two hundred years... These are nonrhetorical questions I'd like you to answer, Karagin, or this debate ends: 1) How old is the Word of Blake when it launches the Jihad? 2) How many years has the Word of Blake held Terra by the time it launches the Jihad? 3) In your opinion, if you have a lightly brainwashed recruitment pool of 1 billion people, and as many years as WoB has held Terra, how many recruits can you acquire and train in their MOS? Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/29/04 10:18 AM 62.128.179.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Funny thing here...you say it won't cost that much, yet using the same sourcebook you listed states that Merc units come and go on a daily bases. I think you need to review your facts again and look at things from the view point of some out side of the loop, which 99% fo the fans are doing. We have a group that was less then 15 years ago a splinter of ComStar that goes from that to IS power house over night and yes it is over night given that they have done MORE then anyone from really next to nothing for a base of operations and while the FWL has helped them, even that relationship is very strained and has it's share of problems. Having Terra DOSE NOT GIVE THEM UNLIMITED MANPOWER. I am so sick of hearing that defense for this Jihad crap. ComStar held Terra and yet their military force wasn't ubered out with millions of troops and I don't recall hearing anyone use that line of thinking for them...So why does this come up now? But again the same answers that TPTB give isn't adding anything new to this topic. And the areas we are covering are among the same ones that have come up before and will keep coming up as long as folks don't buy into the give thinking on this subject. Sorry if holding the folks writing this stuff to a high standard is asking for a lot. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/29/04 11:29 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: I am so sick of hearing that defense for this Jihad crap. ComStar held Terra and yet their military force wasn't ubered out with millions of troops WoB doesn't have millions of troops. WoB isn't a power house. WoB started with 20 regiments of troops, all from the Comguards. WoB is going to stay small. By now, just by watching CNN, you should be able to understand how a few hundred pissy little terrorists can tie up tens of thousands of troops. Scale that up to 20 terrorist mech regiments with hundreds of nuclear weapons. Now start a bunch of wars that do not involve the terrorists while the terrorists operate. Further, if you want to discuss the expense of maintaining militaries, put some numbers behind your arguments rather than citing "most merc units fold" generalities. All five of the House sourcebooks are available on .pdf if you want economic and population data, and I'll be happy to give you standard wages, maintenance expenses, and hardware costs. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Gangrene 01/29/04 08:46 PM 24.6.228.14	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: 2) Available recruits (6 billion people exposed to Blakist doctrines for ~250 years) Who apparently have no wills of their own and like having beliefs imposed on them, contrary to what has happened in all of human history. The treatment of Terra in the storyline is probably the stupidest part of the whole thing. The Jihad should be by Terrans against WoB, who after tasting freedom for a short time should be more than willing to die for their planet against the religious freaks (especially against the religious freaks, considering its TERRA). Gangrene
tgsofgc 01/30/04 01:39 AM 67.4.199.183	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Cray makes an excellent point in the US recruiting section. The US army gathers a huge base of military recruits from a smaller base population. The fact that the government is only set up to reinforce these ideologies of nationalism, patriotism, and service to the government can only mean better results. Also the fact that its been around and stable certainly helps cement the nationalism, as apposed to the marches or rassalhague which while having feelings of nationalism or sub faction loyalty largely don't back their controlling governments (such as Davion, Liao, Steiner, Kurita). This is more like going to New Avalon and try to raise a Davion militia.... except the labor pool is larger and has largely remained untapped for military concerns except for the production facilities in use since Comstar (or before that the Hegemony/Kerensky/Amaris/Cameron) controlled the planet. Quote: Who apparently have no wills of their own and like having beliefs imposed on them, contrary to what has happened in all of human history. To this I have a few things... 1. an equally soundbity comment: History is written by the winners. 2. propaganda is extremely effective.... it is used continually in the free world in advertising as well as military training. If we are such rugged individualist why does the US and UK governments spend gobs of money on basic training meant to temper individuallity and help new recruits to better respect not only an absolute chain of command but unquestionable loyalty. People are pack hunters.... we do as we have always done hang out in groups, social prejudices against this (largely a new developement, see protestant revolution) only complicate matters... they don't change them. I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Nightward 01/30/04 02:08 AM 203.134.47.31	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I feel obliged to point out: "...Maybe it's the speed of their expansion. My intelligence believe that increasing their operational strength to 10 Divisions is at the upper end of what they could do in four years, even with defections from the Com Guard and Thomas Blake's generousity..." FM: ComStar, p5. The World of Blake never got 10 full Divisions from the aCom Guard. They got some Level IIIs (~Batallion) intact, but I don't believe any Level IV (Division) units wholesale. The Word of Blake only controls transmissions through House Marik, parts of the Periphery, and perhaps the Capellan Confederation. Although exact numbers of the units used for the Jihad haven't been released...I really don't like it. The only advantage Word of Blake ever had was that they got most of ROM, who couldn't handle the fact that their jb was being changed from Minor Deity/Internal Security/Intelligence to simply Internal Security/Intelligence. Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Cray 01/30/04 08:00 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Who apparently have no wills of their own and like having beliefs imposed on them, contrary to what has happened in all of human history. That's not true. WoB left Terrans (mostly) alone, opened up some new (mech) factory jobs, and recruited those interested in "travel and adventure in the Word of Blake militia." After all, WoB doesn't need 6 billion screaming Terrans to achieve its goals. A few thousand will do fine. Quote: The treatment of Terra in the storyline is probably the stupidest part of the whole thing. The Jihad should be by Terrans against WoB, who after tasting freedom for a short time should be more than willing to die for their planet against the religious freaks (especially against the religious freaks, considering its TERRA). You obviously don't have "The Fall of Terra." WoB more-or-less left Terrans alone. They reduced outside contact a bit, censored news a bit, but mostly left Terrans alone, one of the wisest things WoB ever did. Terrans hardly had any clue they were in the grips of "religious fanatics," because day-to-day government was still being run by the secular Bureau of Terran Affairs. WoB influenced policy a bit here and there. So, like any large mob of people who weren't directly affected by changes in leadership, Terrans shrugged and went about their business. WoB wasn't bothering THEM after all. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/30/04 08:03 AM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: The only advantage Word of Blake ever had was that they got most of ROM, who couldn't handle the fact that their jb was being changed from Minor Deity/Internal Security/Intelligence to simply Internal Security/Intelligence. Do you have a book/page reference for that? Though that's good news for WoB. It certainly explains operations like Eriynes, which sent the Taurians into a homocidal attack on the Federated Suns. ("That asteroid that just wiped out your capitol? The DAVIONS did it!") Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin 01/30/04 11:21 AM 62.128.179.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Let's see...ComStar changes...opens the planet up to everyone...then loses the planet to WoB. Who uses never gas to take out the ROM HQ, and has a few other not so nice ideas on how to deal with ComGuard units that didn't give up without fighting. Sorry Cray but the idea that WoB can rely on Terra for it's unlimited manpower is not washing through. Again the question remans where is WoB getting the manpower to flesh out it's Army...we know they didn't get 10 full Division of mechs thus that part is washed down the drain so where did the man power come from? Mercs? Maybe but even if they picked up every down on their luck unit, that might get 2 divisions at the most. And some would have noticed that stunt fast. Sorry but this and the money issue is the major sore point of this whole Jihad story plot and to me personally it shows that someone in FASA and now FP/WK either didn't think the fans would notice things like this or care, but it seems that they were incorrect in their thinking. The two reason above and some of the others I mentioned before are among the top 10 reasons I don't support or consider the Jihad storyline as canon and I personal very happy to see Randal doing other projects like the War of 3039 and such. Seems that the point was gotten across about the fans not 100% supporting the Jihad stoy line. Once more the lack of believe ( and I do mean by BT standards) anwsers to the WoB manpower and money issues are really hurting the whole storyline and causing folks to really question the whole thing. This I think is a good thing since it keeps everyone honest and shows that BT has support. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/30/04 11:32 AM 62.128.179.3	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: [ WoB doesn't have millions of troops. WoB isn't a power house. WoB started with 20 regiments of troops, all from the Comguards. WoB is going to stay small. By now, just by watching CNN, you should be able to understand how a few hundred pissy little terrorists can tie up tens of thousands of troops. Scale that up to 20 terrorist mech regiments with hundreds of nuclear weapons. Now start a bunch of wars that do not involve the terrorists while the terrorists operate. I understand that a few can hold up a whole army, but even then they are not launching massive attacks and causing whole cities to die or commo to go out... And yes WoB Has millions of troops, given that they launch attacks all over the place in the area around Terra. Sorry but that does take a lot of troops and a lot planning. Small? Sorry going from one planet (Gisbon) to having that one, Terra and puppet governments on several Chaos March planets isn't staying small at all. Quote: Further, if you want to discuss the expense of maintaining militaries, put some numbers behind your arguments rather than citing "most merc units fold" generalities. All five of the House sourcebooks are available on .pdf if you want economic and population data, and I'll be happy to give you standard wages, maintenance expenses, and hardware costs. No need to posting anything since you or I or anyone can look in the Merc FM or any of the books that list the PRICE of a mech or vehicle and see that these things aren't cheap and with the CANON facts that WoB is buying first run productions of whole series of mechs the cost goes up and up, and then when you added in the cost of fuel for the Dropships to move the mechs and the cost of feeding the crews etc...again the cost is still eating away at their uberfund. So we are still back to square one, the cost of everything WoB needs to get their Jihad off the ground should have them broke and no way of supporting anything. Now if we are to believe your take on things that this is all planned out and everything is taken in account, then why would a group who wants to rule rush into some thing that won't give them that? Could it be that maybe the whole of WoB is still rifled with in-fighting? No wait that can't be... I am sorry but even with your arguement against this the question of cost and such hurts the storyline of the Jihad as it's written since we don't see any other house magically getting hundreds of new mechs and pilots to use them over night ( and by that I mean with in less the a decad Game time). So I think it's safe to say that some of this storyline still hasn't been thought through fully, if at all. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/30/04 11:41 AM 62.128.179.3	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Uhmm no sorry things don't work as nice as Cray made it sound. The US military takes in 1000s of folks and ends up keeping 400 or so of them, and that is BEFORE basic training even starts. Figure about 20% of that 400 (per service) fail basic training or Advanced Training and that leaves you with roughly 250 folks going into the active side of the armed forces. Some of the folks who go in are going into the Reserves or Guard, thus are part time soldiers and while they can be called up that also means something else just as important can be shut down do to no one there to run it...and given that in BT time both men and women are in all branches and arms of the military kind leaves the work force depleted. 250 bodies...that's no where near enough to flesh out the regiments that WoB seems to have mechs for and it still doesn't come close to giving them seasoned troops as all of the current text of the MWDA website suggests that they used in their Jihad. So while Cray did give a good attempt to answer the question he didn't give one that actually comes close. I don't have one that answers the question either since every source I can think of is either way to far fetched or not for BT. Clones and such are a Star Wars deal...and the idea of Iron Wombs for WoB is a possiblity but not one I see FASA going with. The merc opinion is a good one but still it leaves the loop hole of folks like Wolfnet and the other Intel groups finding out, someone would notice the hiring of lots of down their luck units. And the whole cost of raise, training, housing, feeding etc...the troops leads to the whole issue of the money and thus the cycle repeats since there have been no answers given to how WoB is fielding the cost of their whole operation and buying sprees... So again we are back to square one. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cray 01/30/04 12:33 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Sorry Cray but the idea that WoB can rely on Terra for it's unlimited manpower is not washing through. Well, if you're going to stick to a number of incorrect supportions about how WoB handles Terran civilians, yes, I can see how you'd come to that conclusion. However, when you realize: 1) WoB did not launch a crackdown on Terrans (per the Fall of Terra SB) 2) WoB used its control of the media to spin the takeover of Terra favorably to the Terran public ("Nerve gas? Us. No, that was desperate last effort by Comguard hardliners. Here, we have video from security cameras...") 3) WoB only inconvenienced a Terran few tour guides who made livings off foreigners, and university profs/students who had befriended foreigners (because, let's face it, interstellar transport is so rare in the Inner Sphere only thousands of visitors could make it to Terra annually) 4) WoB opened up thousands of new jobs in military factories and planetary defense Then you can see how WoB had no trouble recruiting the few thousand people it needed for its military. Quote: Again the question remans where is WoB getting the manpower to flesh out it's Army...we know they didn't get 10 full Division of mechs thus that part is washed down the drain so where did the man power come from? Finding a few hundred mechwarriors and few thousand support personnel to fill out its military's ranks is not a hard task. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Cray 01/30/04 12:36 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: And yes WoB Has millions of troops, given that they launch attacks all over the place in the area around Terra. Give me 20 regiments and 20 of the FWL's warships and I can launch 120 raids a year. If you need millions of troops in BT to launch a lot of raids, you're doing something wrong. Karagin, I'm just really getting this vibe you haven't accessed the updated information on how the Jihad progressed and are still operating from the first screwed up impressions Wizkids gave out. You don't seem to be allowing for the scale of involvement of other factions (like the Concordat-FS war), and seem to be assuming WoB conquers the "core" worlds of the Inner Sphere in a conventional BT fashion. And, y'know, until we get on the same wavelength about how the Jihad came about, it's not worth wasting further time in this debate. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon. Edited by Cray (01/30/04 12:47 PM)
Gangrene 01/30/04 01:10 PM 24.6.228.14	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: That's not true. WoB left Terrans (mostly) alone, opened up some new (mech) factory jobs, and recruited those interested in "travel and adventure in the Word of Blake militia." After all, WoB doesn't need 6 billion screaming Terrans to achieve its goals. A few thousand will do fine. Cray, did you pay attention in world history? If the WOB is trying control all information flowing into and out of Terra the result is not going to be equivalent to "leaving the Terrans alone." In order to secure Terra they would have to subjegate the local population and place heavy restrictions on travel and commerce. Quote: You obviously don't have "The Fall of Terra." I do, and a government change and massive rearmament does not occur without involving the local populace. As I said, this part of the story is stupid. It does not mesh with common sense and human nature at all. The fact that the authors could not figure out that nobody likes to be occupied by a foriegn power and completely wash over the Terrans as a people is proof of that. Edited by Gangrene (01/30/04 01:22 PM)
Cray 01/30/04 02:19 PM 147.160.1.5	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: If the WOB is trying control all information flowing into and out of Terra the result is not going to be equivalent to "leaving the Terrans alone." In order to secure Terra they would have to subjegate the local population and place heavy restrictions on travel and commerce. Now, now. We're talking about Battletech, not the real world. In Battletech, mech battalions and clusters conquer planets with populations of billions, and have done so since about 2900 (the Third Succession War). The Clans (especially the Jade Falcons and Jaguars) were able to use a few dozen soldiers and a few hundred administrators per planet to convert whole populations to the Clan caste society, and have a profound impact in just fifteen years. When invasions in the Third Succession War involved 5 regiments of infantry, vehicles, and mechs on one planet, wow, that some epic warfare. You remember those days, when Hanse Davion took several tens of thousands of troops and conquered 300 billion Capellans? The Capellans, who always fought fanatically when cornered on their home worlds? No, the conquest of Terra was nothing unusual for the BT universe. Perverse and silly by RL standards, perhaps, but that's the price paid for using playable-sized military units. As for those gross travel lackdowns on Terra, all that was needed were controls on interstellar travel, and as limited as interstellar travel is in BT, that's not going to affect many Terrans. BT spaceports won't handled tens of millions of foreign visitors per year like RL airports - there aren't enough jumpships in the Inner Sphere to move that many people. Beyond that, Terrans acted no differently than 99% of other conquered BT planets - the invaders didn't bother them, they didn't bother the invaders. Quote: and massive rearmament does not occur without involving the local populace. "Massive" - you need to be careful with that word in BT. "Massive" rearmament in BT involves expanding a miltiary by a few thousand people, not like RL. As for involving the local populous..."New factory openings, one thousand new jobs. Seeking welders, computer technicians, and myomer specialists. Inquire at MechTech, Inc.'s website." Yeah, the local populous will get involved. It's not like they're working for religious fanatics, just a normal factory. Mike Miller, Materials Engineer Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon. Edited by Cray (01/30/04 02:47 PM)
Nightward 01/30/04 06:46 PM 211.26.7.200	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply The old ComStar Sourcebook goes on in agonising detail and repition about how the Com Guard largely didn't care about Anastasius Focht's reforms- due to their nature and extensive contact with the rest of the Inner Sphere, the Guard were already largely secular. ROM, however, were vastly insulted that Comstar was being secularised and the teachings of the Blessed Blake (as interpreted by Conrad Toyama etc) were being overthrown in favour of "The HPG is just a machine. it will, in fact, still work if no-one prays to it." By 3058, ComStar ROM was the weakest Intellignce agency in the Inner Sphere. Sad though it is, even SAFE were doing a better job They got very few of the Com Guard. The overwhelming majority of the Word of Blake units are new recruits, rather than hardened Com guard veterens. Three of their Divisions- the 8th, 9th, and 10th- were raised AFTER the fall of Terra. FM: CS, p.58-61. And as Victor said, this was supposed to be the upper end of what the Word of Blake could do in 4 years and had to have left them nearly bankrupted- hence their approaches to the Star League for member status. This is why I really dislkied the sudden (apparently) uber powerz of the Word of Blake. I realise they nuked a couple of planets into oblivion (Outreach rather springs to mind), but the WoB are supposed to have had only 6 WarShips max.... Well. That's why. As of 3060, WoB, with JUST ONE MAJORPLANET to its name fielded about 20 regiments. BBy contrast, the Draconis Combine, with literally hundreds of planets, could field 280. These figures include Infantry, Vehicle, and ASF numbers. So, it strikes me as somewhat odd the Word of Blake is, citizen for citizen, the absolute military powerhouse of the Inner Sphere, capable even of defeating the Clans in the "Insane Citizen to Warrior" ratio by the time of the Jihad. Again, I hate the idea of the Jihad. I thought BT was already starting to wind up a lot of the "complicated plot lines" already. Yea, verily. Let it be known far and wide that Nightward loathes MW: DA. Indeed, it is with the BURNING ANIMUS OF A THOUSAND SUNS that he doth rage against it with.
Gangrene 01/30/04 07:24 PM 24.6.228.14	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Now, now. We're talking about Battletech, not the real world. That's an exceptable argument for most technology issues, but for storyline points for an alternative history of the future that involves basic human motivations it is not good enough. The storyline is what's in question. Its one thing to accept that technology has made absurdly strong armor and inaccurate weapons, its another to accept that human nature has been turned on its head for the sake of the storyline without any plausible explanation. The first is acceptable and can be fun, the second is entirely unacceptable. Quote: In Battletech, mech battalions and clusters conquer planets with populations of billions, and have done so since about 2900 (the Third Succession War). The Clans (especially the Jade Falcons and Jaguars) were able to use a few dozen soldiers and a few hundred administrators per planet to convert whole populations to the Clan caste society, and have a profound impact in just fifteen years. When invasions in the Third Succession War involved 5 regiments of infantry, vehicles, and mechs on one planet, wow, that some epic warfare. Add that to list of faults of the Btech storyline. Quote: No, the conquest of Terra was nothing unusual for the BT universe. Perverse and silly by RL standards, perhaps, but that's the price paid for using playable-sized military units. The storyline does not have to be centered around playable-sized military units. It is silly by real life standards, fiction standards, and even sci-fi standards. Quote: As for those gross travel lackdowns on Terra, all that was needed were controls on interstellar travel, and as limited as interstellar travel is in BT, that's not going to affect many Terrans. Only those who have any economic or political ambition after being squelched by Comstar for 200+ years, which would naturally be people who are affluent in Terran society. The conflict would spurn from more than just inconvenience, as you suggest. People don't like to have artificial limits placed on them by a foreign power. Having their travel and commerce options dictated to them would probably be enough to start the fire of revolt smoldering. Quote: Beyond that, Terrans acted no differently than 99% of other conquered BT planets - the invaders didn't bother them, they didn't bother the invaders. . . . because the storyline is stupid. Terra is different than other planets; it is (or should be) the religious and cultural center of the universe. Instead its treated with complete apathy and shallowly passed over like so much else in the universe. Quote: "Massive" - you need to be careful with that word in BT. "Massive" rearmament in BT involves expanding a miltiary by a few thousand people, not like RL. In past posts you have exalted the Terran populace and industrial base as the means by which the WoB gets the manpower and equipment to do the job, and now you are saying that they really aren't needed at all. Make up your mind. Anyway, your argument here is wrong even from a BT perspective. The logistics alone for the WoB attack would require mobilizing a significant portion of the populace into a wartime effort. Add to that the troops you claim the WoB uses to double their forces and the net result is a lot more than a mere few thousand people. Quote: As for involving the local populous..."New factory openings, one thousand new jobs. Seeking welders, computer technicians, and myomer specialists. Inquire at MechTech, Inc.'s website." Maybe you forget that people have such things as "culture" and "religion." There is more to people than mere economics, and what you have described above has never worked between an occupying force and local population. Gangrene
Karagin 01/31/04 06:27 AM 62.128.179.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply We are talking about the same WoB that according to the FOT SB held the familes of the 21st Centari Lancers hostage aren't we? No control...let's see Terra is no longer open to everyone, as you said the media is under their (WOB) control etc...so yes they do fully control things but still the man power issue is vaild one and doesn't wash through since the need of the industrial base and the military need to balance and as I should have stated eariler, not everyone is fit to be in the military in any level or setting. Thus the billions on Terra aren't going to be all that thrilled to do things for the WoB and also their was mention of CS troops still running around as gurilleas and such on Terra. Then the factional part of the WoB comes into play...are you talking about the same WoB as given in the novels and SBs prior to MWDA coming out? Finding the mechwarriors may not be hard, finding the techs yes that would be a little harder and then RE-TRAINING them and housing them etc...all adds to the cost again. Amazing how this issue keeps coming up. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/31/04 06:29 AM 62.128.179.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Excellent point. I agree with you all the way. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/31/04 06:33 AM 62.128.179.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Very vaild points and it seems that some one at FP/FASA forgot about things in print already... No suprise there. I agree and have been saying that the manpower issues and cost have been part of the top 5 holes in the Jihad storyline since it came to light. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin 01/31/04 06:40 AM 62.128.179.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Cray, I do understand WK put a messed up version of things, and I understand ALL of the preparation, what I don't see and can't buy into is HOW they (FASA/FP and the others involved in this) are doing things. Everything I know about logistical elements both military and civilian don't jive with the BS that is being fead to us by the writters and thus I am questioning it. Again...the issues of overall cost and manpower are among the top 5 faults with the Jihad story line and tossing out comments like they have Terra or money from the FWL, it doesn't anwser anything it actually shows that either an anwser isn't there or the writters are lazy and don't have anything original to convince the reader to believe how they did things. I am allowing for all scales of fighting...yet having some believability and bases in GAME FACTS not BS pulled from thin air is what I am asking for and so far nothing about the Jihad supports that. And as others have said the storyline should be based more on real and believable things then BS that doesn't even wash in a fictional setting. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Silenced_Sonix 01/31/04 10:43 AM 168.209.97.34	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply So far, we have established three things: 1) there appear to be inconsistencies in the MWDA timleline] 2) some people are trying to help BattleTech by tried to come up with answers for the gaps 3) some people are having a royal time bashing the storyline, instead of doing anything constructive about it, like trying to help fill the holes. Beyond that, this argument has established nothing, and I see no reason why any of you should continue with this foolishness. The past is exactly that - past. Nothing to do, but work towards the future if you wish to rectify the mistakes of the past. Evolve or Die
Karagin 01/31/04 11:19 AM 195.238.63.21	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I see, so pointing out the problems and trying to get the folks who are writting things for the game to see that the fans are not: 1) Stupid 2) Actually read the books that are put out. 3) CARE ABOUT THE GAME. So how is asking for the folks that write the material to actually care enough to come up with believe storylines and realistic even in game terms as far as the story goes events and actions that lead to said events. So those that ask questions or comment on the storyline are bashing it. Wow...I think we have heard that before and once again I will say no one is bashing anything, we are asking for those who are TPTB or talk to TPTB to listen and see that the current take on the Jihad and other areas of the storyline are not selling with us the fans for the most part and if holding the folks who write the game and storyline to higher standard then your average Sci-Fi game is bashing things then forgive us for caring and such. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Silenced_Sonix 01/31/04 01:25 PM 168.209.97.34	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply There is an old saying that goes: "Only critize that which you can improve" Sure, looking for bugs and inconsistencies is fine, but hammering on them without offering a viable alternative is pointless. That way, the problem stays unresolved, and nothing constructive can happen. Evolve or Die
Karagin 02/01/04 11:45 AM 195.238.43.89	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Things is when folks have offered ideas or suggested changes certain folks who are buddies with TPTB have jumped all over them and the results are not pretty. By pointing out the areas that are the problems one would think the folks writting the materal would see that the fans do care and want something better not something that is a rehash of similar and over used plot lines. And if it takes harping on it to get them to fix it then so be it. And I can fix the story line...it's simple. Drop the whole Jihad deal completly and use the FC Civil War to set up a Fifth Succession War type of thing or even better, back up to around the time the Jaguars were wiped out and redo things from there, keeping the Clans as a threat to the IS and maybe having the FWL and CapCon fall out over the wedding of Sunny and Isis...plenty of things for them or anyone to run with, without having to go the route of hidden armies or WMDs...but I guess by making these suggestions I am doing nothing but critizing the writters and all... Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
JStallion 02/02/04 04:02 PM 69.47.164.192	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply i agree with karagin about pretty much everything on here but have they ever gone back and redone something in battletech? im asking because i havent been in depth with it for a really long time. but theyd probably get flammed for redoing something once its been set. you can still add on to this instead of going back to pre-operation bulldog. i personally loved the clans and eliminating clan smoke jaguar, the fedcom civil war, capellean con. taking back st.ives and many other things that happened. the whole jihad thing is extremely stupid as is MWDA. clay ive read a lot about MWDA seeing if it was soemthing id want to get into, read some novels on it and looked at the sites a ton, but its just stupid and childish.
tgsofgc 02/03/04 02:07 AM 67.4.199.2	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Major Revisions: Not Really Minor Revisions: Yes For instance alot of the early clan information was revised continuously. Sometimes under the guise of "as we learn more." A classic example are the early release Omnimechs which had different stats. So namely they may continually revise the Jyhad but as long as they move forwards in battletech the basic gist of it will likely still ocure. Note though you don't have to use it in your games.... I find that 'pinpoint' accuracy during a bombing run increases proportionally with the amount of munitions used. -Commander Nathaniel Klepper, Avanti's Angels, 3058
Thor_Mech 02/20/04 12:45 AM 205.187.181.101	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I dunno. I don't really like the new BT. I mean, I haven't really found any characters to like (or 'mechs for that matter. keep your Jupiter. I'd rather take a Dire Wolf or Warhawk) There aren't any legends like Kai, Phelen, or Natasha. We get Tara Cambell, but it just seems kindof lackluster having one Battle/omni 'mech then throwing together a lance of agromechs. What I don't like is the emphasis on vehicles. I mean, 'Mechs are the kings of the battle field. I want to read about things like the defeat of the Falcon Guards on Twycross or the fall of Khan Garth Radick of the Wolves on Tukayyid. This series is really starting to disappoint me. I still really like the original Battletech, owning even the card game, but I'd rather see a movie on the Blood of Kerensky trilogy or the Warrior Trilogy. On a side note, Battletech lost one of its greatest authors in Michael A. Stackpole. Why did you forsake us? "Even after all these years, walking through the ranks of 'Mechs still gives me the chills" - Intelligence Secretary Justin Xiang Allard Outreach, 21, Sept 3051
cmryan 02/21/04 11:01 AM 4.12.82.110	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Hello, I have read through this thrread and would like to offer some information. On page 26 of the Intelligence Operations Handbook the entry for Komandant General Sasha George of the Lohengrin states he was an orphan and marked for the Lohengrin by the age of 5 years old. It is a given that wars produce orphans. The Clan Invasion and the FedCom Civil War can be expected to produce a bunch of orphans. Young children are easy to mold. So I think that Word of Blake could be adopting orphans and indoctrinating them in the Word of Blake. The same way that the Lohengrin recruits and indoctrinates orphans into the service of House Steiner. This does not answer the question of how they can afford to finance an operation like this, or if they can keep this recruiting a secret.
Anson 04/09/04 05:36 PM 129.101.162.254	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Ahhh, it's nice to see that some things never change. Anson LHJ
Hellfire_for_Hire 06/04/04 03:19 PM 206.212.15.100	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Quote: Quote: Once again I ask you since you have again skipped it, WHERE did they get their man power from to pilot all of the mechs? Finally, they have Terra, population 6 billion. What's it take to man 100 mech regiments? 10,800 mechwarriors? You don't need any of those recruiting facilities in the FWL or elsewhere if you tap the Terran labor pool. Finding 1 million recruits on a planet that has its telecommunications and media controlled by WoB should be easy. The US military is able to get several million employees out of a much smaller labor pool, yes? And, hey, WoB inherited a Comstar-run government that's older than US - Terrans have been addled with Blake's message for over two hundred years... I wouldn't be so quick to assume that Terra is a huge fan of WoB, enough of one anyway to just pour millions of people into WoB uniforms. First, it is clear that ComStar had a very hands-off policy toward Terra. There would surely be some indoctrination (e.g. "It is only because of Blessed Blake's foresight that you get to live on the jewel of Terra instead of the hellhole of the Successor State..."), but WoB would not have that credibility. After all, the citizens of Terra knew first hand about the reformation following Op. Scorpion and might have thought free exchange of information and opening of archives was a good thing. Better than the old toaster-worshiping regime. A few years later that old regime shows up blasting everything in sight, garrisoning the planet, rooting out traitors (and probably suspected traitors). Really, it comes down to the question of what would the average Terra's incentive to join WoB be? If Terra is still essentially hands-off (with a few minor inconveniences now that WoB is in charge), there there isn't any. If Terra is being forced to do what WoB wants (back to the bad ol' days of toaster-worshiping ComStar with checkpoints and random searches of citizens for good measure), there should be serious resistance to WoB's attempts, maybe even armed insurrection (or at least supplying ComStar guerrillas with assistance).
Dauragon 09/12/04 06:47 PM 4.233.179.177	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply Terra has 6 billion and the IS houses have populations around a trillion each? Do you realize that this Jihad thing is today akin to Singapore magically being abile to pull out a military force capable of defeating the US, EU, Japan, China and Russia?!?!?
Karagin 09/15/04 11:48 PM 195.238.38.68	Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply I believe that in the original Star League book there is a quote about a secret being something sweet and nice and losing it is like doing something with that special person in your life or something close to that. NOTHING remains a secret if more then one person knows about it. As for the orphan idea, it has possibilities but even that one has limits. Again for them to get the army they need they would have to be planning this since before the Clan invasion and as I pointed out above the idea of keeping that secret isn't something that would last this long. Also when you add in the money issue, the need for bases and the fact that you have to actually support and maintain something like this it really doesn't add up. The idea of WoB doing something to mess up the IS isn't a bad story plot, in fact it would be something right up their alley, but not on the scale FP and WK and FASA have chosen to go with. The whole BT universe has a large playing feild and some areas could have been the vehicle to adjust and move the universe forward, but as has been told to me countless times, in your game do as you want...after all it's all for fun and fun is the key word. Karagin Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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